Conference 7.286::digital

    How will this improve ethics at Digital?  Does the memo say?
    
    Steve

    The memo does not mention ethics, it mentions dollars and Bob Palmer's
    desire for Digital not to spend them on "non business" files.

    The last estimate I saw, which was given to the Operations Committee
    (sort of the SLT under KO), said that employee interest (what Win
    calls non-business) Notes conferences was that they were under $2
    per employee.

    BTW, how does one define "non business notes conferences?"

    			Alfred

    I'd like to see a definition of 'non-business' notesfiles.  Since
    Russ & the rest of the SLT are 'so concerned' about employee morale
    shouldn't ALL notesfiles be considered business related?  Also, non-
    technology related notesfiles contribute to the learning of how to
    use digital technology, and therefore could be considered 'self-paced
    learning tools'..... Gee, they'll be wanting daily counts of paper
    clips soon - and detailed explanations of the ones that are used!
    
    Shades of Jack Smith????

    
    supposedly the review process between employees and their managers
    provides the needed accountability.
    
    

I've also seen the Win Hindle memo. It clearly states that the Senior Leadership
Team is (or has) discussing this. Ron Glover is charted with determining
how this will affect morale (or what's left of it).  Peter Brown is supposed 
to investigate the savings if non-business are shut down.

I can't personally talk about costs, but I'm working on my memo to Ron Glover
to express my opinion about the affect on, at the very least, *my* morale.

*sigh*.

joan

If they do shut them down, then I guess the only fallback is to start using the
Internet news feeds flowing around the corporation.  Everyone on VMS will have
to learn how to use Vnews and dxrn, etc. (applications to access remote news
servers through the NNTP protocol over DECnet and/or TCP/ip.)


In some [minor] ways this might be a good thing, as it would make people see
that there's a big wide world of ideas, opinions, and discussion outside of the
Digital internal network.

However, I think this will simply be one more step in the long-term process of
"hierarchicalizing" Digital -- removing any line of communication that doesn't
flow from the top down.

After all, it's a LOT harder for the groundlings to know what's going on and
prepare for it/fight against it if they're kept in the dark...


John

re .3
>	... were under $2 per employee.

good to have a number.  is that per year, per note, per hour, or what?
thanks.

    Re .-1
    
    Regarding "Ron Glover". Nothing like a neutral party to objectively
    evaluate this I guess. Her certainly didn't seem neutral to me back at
    the beginning of 1992 when information on the DCU elections was being
    posted in notesfiles. He seemed to not like the free flow of
    information.
    
    Dave

    Re .8
    
    Most of us in VMS are already aware of USENET ndes feeds, in case you
    haven't noticed activity in comp.os.vms
    
    It sounds like there might be a LOT of mailing lists set up though, if
    the news files go away.
    
    Bill
    

    (re .11) I really ARE able to spell, but I didn't spells checks
    (sorry \nasser)
    

    Freedom of Speech.
    
    		Once again the cutting costs for cutting cost without
    really understanding the consequences.   This AMERICA of ours is
    GOING DOWN...GOING DOWN.    It bothers me that no one wants to hear the
    message.   Cost cutting ALONE will not bring back the world leadership
    that we once had.    Consumers are looking for more, much more.
    Anyone can par costs, therefore there is nothing to it.   Your
    Competitive Advantage has to be broader than Cost alone.    I
    understand that we need to cut more costs, that there are some items in
    the P&L that need to be leaner.   However, when you go try to get every 
    penny without fully undestanding what the true meaning of the item is,
    personally I think you are getting irrational, in fact you are getting
    near to become a psychopath.
    

    re: switching to news groups and plain old e-mail
    
    Before Notes really caught on, I was "in the loop" based on countless
    VAXmail distribution lists. It was sort of a chore managing messages
    and lists, but it was worth the trouble until Notes came along. Now
    it seems like Notes may be going away, so VAXmail may again be the
    mainstay of employee communications. But the "problem" of "wasted
    resources" will still remain. So the logical next step is that IM&T
    will have to monitor mail messages looking for "non-business related"
    information. Hopefully they will not expend more resources on the
    monitoring activities than we employees "wasted" on Notes  ...
    
    Geoff

    
        Sigh.....
    
        Those folks just keep on confusing cost with investment. 
    
      /sarcasm = on
        But then it's probably hard to quantify productivity gains due 
        to higher morale based on an investment at a small cost...
        Easier just to take a knife to the whole thing.
      /sarcasm = off
    
        Also sounds like overuse of notesfiles is more of a management 
        problem than anything else - if the person's getting the work 
        done, where's the problem?
    
        It'll be interesting to see what gets interpreted as company 
        business;  who'll be the judge and jury on that?
    
    
      Peter

At this point, and given everything else that's happened over the last two
to three years, this doesn't seem like it matters very much.  Morale is
totally gone anyway.  NOTES had the function of providing some "glue" for
the internal Digital community, but that community is pretty much in tatters
now.  I think in some ways it might be BETTER if those of us who still cared
about communicating with each other did so in a neutral forum such as the
Usenet News groups.

Digital is in "survival mode" now.  And the odds aren't all that great.  It's
funny how some people could see that with closing down the Mill but many
still consider NOTES somehow sacred.  There are rational arguments to be
made on both of these issues (and many others), but decisions are being
driven by pure adrenaline at this stage of things.  Why fight it?  "Faith
has been broken," as the Rolling Stones sing it, but it's No Big Deal.

								- paul

    Well, at least they're consistent.. Whack heads and anything else that
    might make a buck, who cares about morale. Let's tell them that they're
    empowered and maybe they'll *REALLY* think they are..
    
    Best In Class.. 
    
    Still just 3 words at Digital until THEY learn how to listen...
    
    JOe
    

re           <<< Note 2605.7 by TNPUBS::J_GOLDSTEIN "Always curious" >>>
                        -< Looks pretty serious to me >-

>I've also seen the Win Hindle memo. It clearly states that the Senior Leadership
>Team is (or has) discussing this. Ron Glover is charted with determining
>how this will affect morale (or what's left of it).  Peter Brown is supposed 
>to investigate the savings if non-business are shut down.

    So, we have two-three VEEPs working on getting rid of something that
    hardly costs anything, when they could be masterminding increased
    revenue...
    
    sheesh.!
    
    q
    

    Well, I've just finished & sent my letter to Ron Glover.
    
    (Hint:  I couldn't use VAXmail to send to ICS::GLOVER even with NMail,
    earlier this evening; use the MTS gateway from VAXmail, thus:
    
    To:  nm%mts$::"MSO::RON GLOVER"
    
    and you'll get it through.)
    
    Have *YOU* written yours yet, everyone?
                      
    Should we post 'em here?
    

    IMO,
    
    Modern Management means motivating a "Responsible Adults", employees
    are not measured with the time that they spent in doing the job but
    they are measured based on the result! Company doesn't pay for time but
    pay for knowledge.
    
    Productivity != time * #job
    
    but
    
    Productivity = result(#employees, investment)
    
    

    
    i think notes are a good things, it brings DECeees closer to each
    other, makes us look at each other with that  human touch that is
    deep inside and each of us, make us more of a family of workers instead
    just cold hard numbers, it also makes us share the spirit that holds 
    this company reflecting ideas and opinions to learn from and adhere
    to and to contemplate at, in addition, it has good social and far 
    reaching values ,both at the emotional and the non emotional spectrum 
    of living, love, work, and understanding, not to mention the wide range 
    of informations that is learned from your fellow DECeees by it, and i
    believe strongly that the day notes is shut down, is the day you'll see 
    many frustrated DECeees going around with glaze in their eyes, i , 
    \nasser, therefore would like to voice my opinion to keep notes alive 
    and not to shut it down, for DEC, us, you, me , and all to enjoy and 
    perspire along in the days of our lives.

    these are some of my random thoughts on this subject for now, i might 
    have to add more later if the situation develops to warrant it.

    \nasser

	Just Imagine...

a usenet news group carrying our current feelings about Digital around
a public network - where the future *potential* employees and customers
get to see what those of us the inside the company think of the company... 

notes is one of the few things that separates working for this company
from working for *any* company and paying for a private usenet feed...

I wonder if it is the cost 'they' are trying to control, or is it
the flow of information?  Do 'they' veiw conferences like this one
as a threat?  We spread information faster than they would like
(at least some information...).  

	Joe

    
    
    ***FLAME ON***
    
    Same procedure as anywhere else: if you haven't got the foggiest
    idea how to to do real bussiness,  cut costs ( called lean
    management nowadays ). Only then you can be sure that you
    can't be held responsible if your company goes out off 
    business.
    
    ***FLAME OFF***	
    
                                                  helmut
    								

    Well, if this is for cost then the Company is shooting itself in
    the foot unless we turn off the net. Of course that may be next.
    I remember the days of 1000+ mailing lists to keep informed, exchange
    ideas, get help or direction on a work or non work related subject.
    This was around the time that notes was just beginning. Between mail
    and usenet there will be little if any savings.
    
    Now if the idea on this is to keep everyone in the dark and censor the
    people who read between the lines on most pablum that flows from above
    then we have a problem. This could harken back to the days of the Free
    Speach Movement in the early 60's. Anyone remember Berkeley back then?
    This was before the hippies and the drugs. Very interesting times and
    some very ugly incidents. No need for details and I'm surely not
    suggesting we take to the streets. However, the analogy is surely
    there.
    
    In any event, it probably doesn't matter much anymore. My morale for
    my job is pretty high. I really do enjoy what I'm doing and work hard.
    However, my morale for the company as a whole is fairly low. If the
    removal on "non work" related notes file is true than it has just
    notched down a bit further.
    
    Jim C.
    
    P.S. We should have been preaching the benifits of NOTES to the outside
         world long ago. Now, when this gets out. Ah, forget it.
    
    

In 1989 Notes where under fire, I thought the conclusions of the
paper presented then are just as relevant today. Only the numbers 
may have changed. Send mail if you'd like the whole paper...Gail
    

Strategic Technologies Group
    
Conclusions and Recommendations

Notes Conferences are widely used in Digital as evidenced by the fact that 
31.8% of the Easynet nodes that were successfully polled have conferences.  
The 10,355 conferences revealed by polling is up 72.2% over a one year period.  
Digital uses notes to accomplish its distributed management philosophy by 
permitting many widely geographically dispersed players to collaborate on 
engineering, manufacturing, or customer service activities.

The technology of notes conferencing is no less secure than any other form of 
electronic communication.  Security and confidentiality are the responsibility 
of Digital employees and management, as they are in any other form of 
communication.  The standard Digital document classifications, such as 
"Digital Confidential" must be used and observed.

While it is understood that there is concern for the pervasive usage of VAX 
notes in Digital and it's impact on resources, information security and 
possible legal risks, it should be understood that the usage of VAX Notes has 
been invaluable in the management of internal business.  The benefits in the 
ability to quickly share information, discuss topics and to solve business 
problems are very difficult to measure in terms of dollars or human resources 
saved.  In the area of product management alone, Marketing, Product Management 
and Product Support (Engineering) have been using VAX Notes as a primary mode 
of communication.  

At this point in time, the Strategic Technologies Group does not foresee any 
corrective action that needs to be taken with regard to Digital notes 
conferences.  Should there be a high level of concern by the Executive 
Committee about the usage of VAX Notes in Digital it would be our 
recommendation that this concern be discussed (via selected representation) 
with representatives of the MODERATORS conference, which is the primary method 
that STG has used for management of the VAX Notes environment in Digital.  
Many of the participants in this conference are highly influential in the VAX 
Notes environment.  It may also be beneficial for representatives of key 
functions (Information Security, Legal, etc.) to provide active representation 
in the conference.  Currently there is representation from STG provided via 
the Corporate VTX Program.

    The beatings will continue until morale improves.
    
    Laurie.

    
    Until the mentality shown by some in this company gets away from 'we
    must save' to 'we must earn', I fear the closing down of "non-business'
    related notesfiles will be another chip off the iceberg, along with "no
    stationary orders" and other such *monumental* cost savers.
    
    Seeing that revenue was down last quarter, (how this is translated into
    senior management euphoria, I fail to understand), I think this company
    will take any deperate measures that some deem necessary to 'save
    money', missing the salient fact that we probably need to spending some
    money to generate new business, re-establish some customer base that
    has left and make sure we keep what customers we have left. 
    
    I also think that this is an attempt to curb *unapproved* and
    unofficial communication in this company. Think I'm paranoid? Time will
    tell.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Mark.                                                       

    >re .3
>>	... were under $2 per employee.
>
>good to have a number.  is that per year, per note, per hour, or what?
>thanks.

    Sorry, that's per year. I wonder how many benefits we have that cost
    less than $2/year/employee? We could probably TFSO 1 VP to pay for the
    whole thing. :-)

    		Alfred

    Gag at a gnat, swallow a camel.....!
    
    Penny wise, pound foolish..........!
    
    Proof positive that Digital no longer cares about its' employee..!
    
    

    
    Set Paranoia/on
    
    I knew we shouldn't have started that 'Union' string.....
    
    Set Paranoia/off

    Being a new noter, finally learning after much trial and error, mostly
    error, I hope senior management does not take away this incredible
    information sharing resource. Tell us more about internet and how to 
    log into it and use it.

    Anyone getting TFSO'd who'd like to start their own community bulletin
    board service...
    
    They could take the "employee interest" notesfiles (the new Digital
    would probably give 'em up) and make them public access (for a fee, of
    course)...
    
    

    >                           -< Business opportunity >-

    Compuserve, America ONline, and Prodigy all offer commercial bulletin
    boards. I suspect that this in not a market Digital wants to get in.
    I have a friend who works for Prodigy and I'm not sure anyone really
    wants to get into this business. Though I do think that Digital
    products could easily be used to build a great service.

    		Alfred

    Several have suggested that if Notes are stopped they will  read News
    Groups.  But dont you expect the same policy that bans Notes will ban
    News Groups? A policy would be written to stop an activity, not ban a
    particular piece of software.

    >>Sorry, that's per year. I wonder how many benefits we have that cost
      less than $2/year/employee? We could probably TFSO 1 VP to pay for
      the whole thing. :-)<<
    
    An observation:  It's funny, I've seen the announcement about BJ
    leaving, but nothing about John Simms!!!!!

>    An observation:  It's funny, I've seen the announcement about BJ
>    leaving, but nothing about John Simms!!!!!
    
    It's in LIVEWIRE.
    
    		Alfred

    There are two programs for accessing Usenet from VMS systems within
    Digital.  Vnews is for vanilla terminals.  Xrn is for DECwindows.  I
    will tell you how to set up both.  If you do not have DECwindows, just
    ignore the paragraphs below that are specific to Xrn.  The total size
    of the files when you are done is about 1500 blocks, including
    documentation.  It is a bit more while Vnews is linked, but you can
    delete the .OLB file afterwards.

    As an example, somewhere in my directory tree is a directory called
    News, which has some files common to both programs, including the data
    file that records what messages you have read (like a Notes seen map). 
    That directory has separate subdirectories for Vnews and Xrn.

    Somewhere in your directory tree, create a directory with any name you
    like and put in it the following command file.  Change your login
    command file to execute this command file, by putting the line "$
    @[directory]filename" in your login command file, where you fill in
    "directory" and "filename" as appropriate.  Nothing in the lines below
    needs to be changed for your account.

$ source = f$environment("procedure")
$ source = f$parse(source,,,"device")+f$parse(source,,,"directory")
$
$ define news_mail_dir	"''source'"
$
$ server	== "@''source'server"
$ server

    If you want, put a file in your new directory called SIGNATURE.MAI that
    contains lines you would like appended to any message you write -- your
    name, a cute saying, your network address, et cetera.

    Also in that directory, put this file, called SERVER.COM:

$ if p1 .eqs. "" then p1 = "nntpd"
$
$ define newsrc		news_mail_dir:news.rc-'p1'
$ define nntpserver	"''p1'::""0=nntp"""

    That file lets you change the news server you use.  If you use news
    from somewhere other than where I am (ZK), you should choose a server
    from the list at the bottom of this message.  Please do not just use
    NNTPD without checking the list.  Note that you could use different
    servers regularly, using one when another was down, but you need
    different data files for each server because they number their messages
    differently.

    You can get more information on servers and Vnews or Xrn from the Notes
    conferences, UFP::XRN (see topic 66 for kit information), CLO::VNEWS
    (topic 16 for kit information), and UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE (topic 95 for
    server information).

    From your new directory, create an Xrn subdirectory, put the commands
    below in a file, and execute it from your login command file.  You will
    need to change the definition of the "fullname" logical, but the rest
    of the commands should be unchanged.

$ source = f$environment("procedure")
$ source = f$parse(source,,,"device")+f$parse(source,,,"directory")
$
$ xrn == "$''source'dxrn"
$
$ define fullname	"Your Name Goes Here (Put a cute saying here.)"
$ define organization	"Digital Equipment Corporation"
$
$ if f$extract(3,2,f$getsyi("version")) .les. "2" then -
	define vaxcrtl 'xrn_dir'vaxcrtl

    Then copy UFP::SYS$KITS:[XRN]XRN.DOC,DXRN.EXE to that subdirectory.  As
    soon as you execute the command files, Xrn is ready to run; just type
    XRN.  (See below information on what to do when you first run a news
    program.)

    In the Vnews subdirectory, put the following commands in a file and
    execute them from your login file.  Again, change the definition for
    "name".  Also change the print queue, but leave everything else alone.

$ source = f$environment("procedure")
$ source = f$parse(source,,,"device")+f$parse(source,,,"directory")
$
$ define	name		"Always mount a scratch monkey."
$ define	newsdir		"''source'"
$ define	news_print	"print/queue=ansi_ps40"
$
$ set command	newsdir:vnews
$ vnews		== "vnews/head=(from,newsgroups,subject,lines,organization)"

    With your default set to the Vnews subdirectory, execute the following
    commands (you may wish to read GET-VNEWS before executing it):

	COPY CLOVAX::DISK$USER1:[COBURN.VNEWS_DIST]GET-VNEWS.COM *
	@GET-VNEWS

    Finally, execute the command files that you created above.  One way
    to do this is to log out and log in again; the commands you put in
    your login command file will execute the files.  Or you can just type
    those lines (beginning with "@") at the DCL prompt.

    Both programs are now ready to run.  The first time you run either of
    these news programs, you will be presented with a list of newsgroups. 
    You need to select which groups you want to subscribe to (read from
    regularly) and which you do not.  Rather than go through the program's
    method of selection, I recommend you use an editor.  To do this, leave
    the program.  In Xrn, select the Quit button, and then select it again. 
    In Vnews, I don't remember the appropriate option to get out of the
    group selection mode, but it will probably be indicated in the prompt. 
    Once out of group selection mode, use Q to exit the program.

    After leaving the program, there should be a file called NEWS.RC-NNTPD
    (or "NEWS.RC-server" if you have selected another server) in your
    NEWS_MAIL_DIR directory.  Edit this.  It will contain a bunch of
    newsgroup names, followed by colons or exclamation points.  A colon
    means you are subscribed to that group, an exclamation point means you
    are not.  After you have used news for a while, numbers will be after
    the punctuation, indicating which messages you have seen in each group.

    I recommend you first change all colons to exclamation points using a
    general command/process in the editor and then you go through the list
    manually subscribing to interesting-looking groups by changing their
    exclamation points to colons.  Be sure to subscribe to
    news.announce.newusers and news.newusers.questions for a while if you
    have not used Usenet elsewhere.

    After you have edited the file, go back into one of the news programs
    and start reading.  In Xrn, the buttons have messages that appear that
    tell you what they do.  In Vnews, "h" is for help.

    Finally, here is a list of servers to choose from.  This list comes
    from a note written on 19 March 1992.  To get later information, check
    notes in UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE topic 95.  Using the location codes in
    the first column, locate the site closest to you, and replace "nntpd"
    in the command files I gave above with the node name that appears in
    the second column.

 Where         NODE      EASYnet     Internet address

Maynard        deceds    24.265
Maynard        engage    24.153      engage.pko.dec.com
Littleton      nntpd     55.376      nntp.lkg.dec.com
Littleton      sousa     29.176      sousa.ltn.dec.com
Marlborough    ryn       21.158      ryn.mro4.dec.com
Merrimack      e2big     31.1008     e2big.mko.dec.com
Westfield      sniff     18.176      sniff.wfo.dec.com
New York       datum     32.557      datum.nyo.dec.com
Washington     decuac    36.51       decuac.dec.com
Detroit        lemans    34.133      lemans.det.dec.com
Colo. Springs  shodha     8.720      shodha.cxn.dec.com
Albuquerque    decabo    16.964      decabo.abo.dec.com
Seattle        rust      10.176      rust.zso.dec.com
Palo Alto      usenet    10.352      usenet.pa.dec.com
Santa Clara    oct17     30.59       oct17.dfe.dec.com
Reading        hollie    42.203      hollie.rdg.dec.com
Basingstoke    decuk     41.6        decuk.uvo.dec.com
Valbonne       uninet    51.407      uninet.vbo.dec.com
Munich         cssec4    49.668      cssec4.unt.dec.com
Stockholm      loke      50.424      loke.soo.dec.com
Tokyo          tkou02    58.764      tkou02.jit.dec.com
Yokohama       jrdzzz    58.641      jrdzzz.jrd.dec.com


				-- edp
                                    

>                                  Tell us more about internet and how to 
>    log into it and use it.

     See SofBas::Internet_Tools (KP7 or select to add it to your notary).

    I've never written into this particular conference, though I'm a
    frequent follower and contributor to several others, both work-related
    and "employee interest".
    
    My comment is this: I am leaving Digital in two weeks to pursue "other
    opportunities".  In thinking about what I'll miss most about DEC, Notes
    came to the top of the list.  For my 16+ years here, it has been the
    single most valuable source of information for me, both on the job and
    off.
    
    If this goes through, I guess I won't have as much to miss any more :-)
    
    I've gotten several Mail messages this morning from various co-workers
    and friends all around DEC about this subject.  The theme of the
    messages are all basically the same: "Looks like you picked the right
    time to get out of Digital!"
    
    Perhaps they're right.
    
    				Vernon Miller
    

                -< Original Memo? >-
    
    Can anyone post the Win Hindle memo here? If it violates noting
    rules, can someone send me a copy?
    
    Thanks
    Atul

    Re: newsgroups and limiting them:
    
       USENET's basic interaction is via electronic mail messaging.  The
    only feasible way to shut down USENET is to stop E-mail.
    
       While I wouldn't recommend anything as subversive as this, it would
    be possible for people to set up their own private newsfeeds which came
    through the corporate e-mail gateways and fed local systems.  It would
    cost more for the company in terms of bandwidth and disk storage than
    the current semi-organized anarchy which exists, but unless a notes
    conference which has a single residence, USENET newsgroups are a
    group/collaborative entity.
    
    Re: Vernon:
    
       Vernon, you were one of the first DEC engineer-types I met, and one of
    the reasons I came to the company.  I'm sorry to see you go but after this
    latest round, I'm more tempted to ask if where you're going has any more
    openings...
    
    					-mjg

>>At the recent Internal Controls Committee meeting, there was a 
>>vigorous discussion...
:^) Is this the PC way of saying they almost came to blows?!? :^)

>>At the recent Internal Controls Committee meeting, there was a 
>>vigorous discussion of the elimination of non-business notes 
>>conferences.  Bob Palmer was clear that he did not want Digital 
>>to pay for such conferences.

It's almost even more surprising that there was a "vigorous" discussion
before any of the VPs knew what the savings might be.

It should have gone something like this:

VP #1:  How about shutting down non-business notes to save money?

VP #2:  How much will it save?

VP #1:  I don't know.

VP #2:  Find out and then we'll be able to talk more.

Anything more without the facts is another example of in-ept management
that can't even make their own meetings efficient.

Of course,  VP #3 could add:

VP #3:  Yes,  but how much will it cost you to find out the cost?

If they want to know the effect on morale,  Ron Glover should just read
this notes file. 

Garry

[Warning - some opinionated ramblings ahead]

The elimination of interests notesfiles would be a terrible mistake IMHO.
They provide an massive source of information, and encourage employee
communications and bonding through common interests. The belief that they
waste money can only come from the following viewpoints:

	1. The assets used are being wasted.

	   This is a false understanding. Ever look through DIAL? Digital
	   has tons of hardware either collecting dust, or getting
	   thrown out because they won't allow transfer of ownership to
	   employees. My experience is that most interest notesfiles
	   are run on antiquated/uneeded equipment, or on equipment that
	   needs to be running for other reasons and has spare resources.

 	   The more valid view could perhaps be in electrical consumption
	   costs. But again, if the equipment needs to be up anyway this
	   is not an issue. Plus the increase in phone communication costs
	   that would occur if the network could not be used (which HAS to
	   exist for other reasons) would certainly affect this. 


 	2. Employee time is being wasted.

	   No one I know allows an interest file to interfere with his
	   work. If this is happening, the employee should be corrected, not
	   eliminate the asset. Moderators do it on their own time. It's
	   a falsehood to think that employees should never have free time --
	   you cannot keep a person active 24hrs a day every day (and still
	   hold onto them as a happy employee). I think it's more productive
	   to grow by exchanging information via a notesfile rather than
	   perhaps play a computer game (which I see happen at other
	   companies).

 	   How much of someone's time do you think I could consume if I
	   badgered them for "common" information (say about Disney) that
	   could easily be obtained from a scan of a notesfile?


 	3. They offer no value.

	   Wrong. The full benefit to the company cannot perhaps be measured
	   in $$$, but some of it can. The cost savings in phone
	   communications, the archiving of existing information to eliminate
	   wastefully seeking it repeatedly, not wasting someone's time to
	   relate the information, etc. If anything else, consider it
	   a big employee benefit that costs almost nothing, but offers a
	   lot. An example of a real-life benefit for me was when I was
	   planning a vacation, and extracted a ton of information from a
	   notesfile about where I was going. It saved me a lot of money,
	   made my trip more eventful, and stopped me from spending hours on
	   the phone with a travel agent.

 	   In this day of employee loyalty elimination, this is a small tool
	   that helps one enjoy his/her employer.


What's next - the elimination of freely distributed software from the enet?
Anyone care to guess how much of a savings THAT has offered to people?


BTW - In war, the first priority of someone/something seeking total
control of people is to control the communications media. If you succeed,
information becomes manipulative and untrustworthy. The reason the Moscow coup
failed was because they could not obtain total control of communications. They
DID try by taking over radio, paper, and TV), but failed because of email and
faxes (I was able to communicate with my Brother-in-law the whole time
via email). Information was able to get out and the population was informed and
fought back. Could it be that upper management is tired of dealing with
certain types of information leeking to the common employees? Nahh, impossible
:-).

It's also a typical action taken by organizations that care more about their
public perception rather than their actual substance. (i.e. It's better to
look good than to feel good).


I don't think Digital would be sending a good message to employees by
eliminating these notesfiles. It's one of the few trustworthy ASSETS left that
helps encourage employee outlook in this company. Information from peers is
always better than memos from above.

It also helps us to stay as informed as our customers. Whose to judge what
is and is not of value? Is IBM_SHAREWARE or CLASSIFIEDS valuable to Digital
business? Since these are good tools for providing customer support and
satisfation, you better believe they are.

The availability of information should always be a priority of this company,
even if the benefit of the information is not directly seen by all people.

However, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Digital DID eliminate them.

    
    This and other conferences provides me with an effective way to listen
    to fellow employees, plain and simple. I would be most curious to know
    how this particular conference would be classified; if they classify it
    as non-work related, I would suspect that this exercise has more to do with
    information flow than cost. 
    
    I hope the SLT does not tamper with this medium!
    
    - Jim K 

re: .44, Jim

> :^) Is this the PC way of saying they almost came to blows?!? :^)

I don't know. Was the meeting held in the parking lot in Stow?

:^)
-Jack

    I hope all you good folks are sharing your (hopefully unanimously PRO-
    retention-of-employee-interest noting:-) opinions via EMail with Ron
    Glover...  Though posting them here is fine and they MAY be read, the
    best way imho to ensure your voice is heard is to mail the gentleman
    directly.  
    
    You're making many good points, many of which I didn't think to put in
    my note of last evening, which is to be expected.  Keep it up -- this
    demonstrates the power of the medium.
    

Jack,
Dunno where it was held but the word 'vigorous' is
pretty strong language for staid management types
who speak in understatments! :^} When I use the word
it means I really layed into whatever I have at hand.
I just can't picture what it would mean in the context it
was given. :^) From the sound of it though it must have
gotten pretty ugly. I think its really funny! :^) x 10**9!!!

    Ron,

    By now it is common knowledge throughout the company that steps are
    being taken to evaluate (and secure) the elimination of "non business"
    notesfiles.  What is also common knowledge, save perhaps to those whose
    decision this action might be, is that eliminating these notesfiles
    could sound the death knell for Digital itself.  Besides the loss of
    intangible but very real business benefit to Digital, it would without
    doubt signal the final destruction of whatever employee morale remains,
    and that in turn could lead to such an exodus of qualified people that
    Digital would in the end have to close its doors.

    Topic 2605 in the HUMANE::DIGITAL notesfile contains a highly charged
    discussion of this issue, and I urge you to follow that topic if you are
    not already doing so.  This message will be posted there.

    "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence."  Let it not be
    said that Digital made this aphorism the truth by poisoning its own
    garden.

    Dick Binder, Software Principal Writer, USG Publications
    

    Well, from the memo, at least the V.P.'s seem to have learned their
    lesson from the vacation accural fiasco.  Investigating the cost and
    impact on morale BEFORE announcing a policy change is a first at
    Digital.  I, for one, like Win's memo. 

    Re .52
    
    You'll excuse me if I disagree.  I think Win Hindle's memo speaks to
    management's desperate desire to avoid shooting itself in the foot
    again, not to any concern for employees.

    re. 53
    
    You may be right, but I prefer to think that someone in this company is
    genuinely concerned about employee morale.  

    re. 55
    
    I would like to think so too, but the reality is; they were probally
    TFSO'd yesterday.
    
    Ken
    

    Why Comunism failed ?
    
    	It has been proven that the comunist leaders got so out of touch
    with the realities of their respective countries that the people in
    those countries decided it was time for a change due to the fact that
    their supposed leaders were discussing trivial issues and not the
    cruel realities that troubled their contries.
    
    	Are we seeing the same here in America about 'Corporate America'.
    
    	Lets see:
    
    	IBM, GM, Ford, DEC, GE, Wang, etc.
    
    		Their 'leaders' were entrenched discussing trivial issues
    	while all of they decayed.   New management came in changes were
        done, but the core was kept as is.    The real change, what
    	everybody only talked but did not implement (Employee Empowement)
    	did not happened.
    
    	Why ?
    
    		Same reason of why the communist leaders did not provide
    	more right to their people, THEY WERE AFRAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Afraid of What ?
    
    		Lossing Power (please read outrageous $$$$$$$$$$$$$$alaires
                and perks, and this and that, and the other).
    
    	It has happened so many times........
    
    		In 500AC a man named Nicholas Machiavelli wrote in his
                book 'The Prince': History will repeat itself'.
    
    		Is anyone paying attention, yet.....I guess not.

    re .57
    
    I don't know why you lump GE in with the other companies.

    Maybe it's just a misunderstanding...
    
    Maybe the powers that be, upon hearing the success stories from Notes,
    wondered how/why (Lotus) Notes became so widespread and they just want
    to cut back on 3rd party software.  
    
    J

    The Internet and all its thousands of interest groups (approximately 5,400
    currently available) can be accessed with just a modem and dumb terminal 
    via several commercial nodes.

    I use a private, commercial node to access the Internet. It has been 
    costing me about $14/mo ('your mileage may vary.').

    If the purpose of this proposal is to isolate Digital employees from
    one another, it will, of course, fail. 


    Ken

'Shakin' the bush boss!"

 'What we have here is -- failure -- to communicate'

	There is no way to quantify the cost of non-business use of notes
	as there is no way to quantify its many hidden benefits.  The 
	company as a whole is driven to seeking out waste and removing it.
	An admirable objective overall, however it's starting to get
	really annoying.

	Any vehicle such as NOTES that gets that much use serves a purpose.
	No individual, or committee is going to understand that purpose
	in a short period of time, particularly if they don't use it !
	If they're determined to do this then they'll make a case for it
	with numbers skewed in their favor and it will happen.  We constantly
	waste dollars and try to save pennies.
	
	These investigations under every stone, looking for a nickel have
	got to stop!  Let's start concentrating all the committees and task
	forces to revenue creation, that's how we'll prosper.

	There is value in NOTES, even non-business notesfiles.  If not for
	anything else than a place to vent.

    
    
      re:.43  uhhh ,  ohhh!!
    
          I was going to refer to the Win Hindle memo , but I guess IT
    got deleted......... I was jus' wonderin' myself whose been using
    Wins' account , weren't his initials at the end of the message,or
    is my memory doing a dis-service to me again. I'll bet it was the
    Secretary thing again.......IT's kinda like DALLAS the T.V.show...
    IT was all a bad dream................ this string cracks me up
    
    		;^) ;^)...to infinity.
    
    		But I have to say it's not nice to peek into the fortune
    cookies before they're wrapped................just ask the SLT.....
    and if it was a forgery............never mind.
    
    			Pablo
    
    

    My guess is that the reason there is so much anger vented here is due
    to the feeling that more and more control is being exerted over our
    lives and that one of the hallmarks of the DEC culture was the freedom
    it allowed people to pursue projects they cared about and the feeling
    that people could be trusted to do the right thing.   Now that basic
    value, under the guise of cost control, is being challenged.
    
    From my point of view, Notes are a tremendous and unquestionably useful
    resource and should be maintained.  So I agree with most of the
    sentiments expressed here.
    
    But then let's play Devil's advocate for just a second.  I'm not really
    familiar with those notes files that are non-business related -I'm
    assuming that this one does not fall in that category.  Could we try to
    identify a few examples of which ones are non-business related and then
    speak specifically to whether or not their use can be justified during
    the hours of 8:00 to 5:00?  Is that a reasonable question to address?  
    
    I believe Win is asking a reasonable question to which a reasonable
    answer should be given.  There may be some suspicion about the motive
    driving this inquiry, but on the face of it, it's a fair issue to
    discuss.

I am moderator of conference GRATEFUL that discusses issues pertaining to the
Grateful Dead.  Clearly not business related.  I also peek into the AUDIO 
notesfile...again, no specific business relation.

I am very aware of the fact that, in both of these conferences, people have
made connections with others who can help them with business problems.  This
is similar to what happens in social gatherings of Digital employees that
are not business meetings but have business value.

I know that people access and write in GRATEFUL during the day.  Many folks
use the notesfile as their "break room".  They don't go to the smoking room. 
They may eat lunch at their desk and check out the notesfile then.

There may be abuse (i.e. - people using the conference when they should be
working), but if this is a problem for their performance as a Digital employee
then this should be reflected in their review.

>whether or not their use can be justified during
>the hours of 8:00 to 5:00?  Is that a reasonable question to address? 

8 - 5 whose time?  These are worldwide open forums.  Can we impose Eastern
time on the rest of the world?  

What about the engineer who is beating her head against the wall on a problem,
working 50-60 hour weeks, and NEEDS a distraction so that she can go back to
work in 10-15 minutes with a clear head and see the problem with clarity?

If folks' performance is not being correctly reflected in their reviews, then
removing Employee Interest Notes is not going to fix this.

	dave

    RE: .65  by NECSC::LEVY 
    
>If folks' performance is not being correctly reflected in their reviews, then
>removing Employee Interest Notes is not going to fix this.

    I thought all the poor performers had been TFSO'd by now?  Or is that
    another process that's screwed up?
    
    Right now I'm noting from my hot, stuffy bedroom in my underwear.  I
    didn't log in to work, so much as compile some stuff I was working on
    earlier.  Killing time while it cooks I can come in here and
    communicate with an untold number of co-workers.  Where else can I do
    that in my underwear?
    
    Come to think of it, last time I came in to work on a Sunday I had to
    strip down to my undershirt because they've been shutting down the AC
    on weekends to save money.  

From:	NRSTA2::KALIKOW      "Dan Kalikow, Consultant, IM&T Info 
			      Delivery Utility"  2-AUG-1993 22:13:19.30
To:	NM%MTS$::"MSO::RON GLOVER"
CC:	KALIKOW
Subj:	My views on the value of Employee Interest NotesFiles

Dear Ron:

I see that you've got the task of assessing the impact on employee
morale that might be expected were the SLT to decide to proscribe
employee interest notesfiles (which I will refer to here as EINFs to
save space).  I'd appreciate your considering my thoughts on this
issue.

My opinion is that this proscription would be a grave misstep, and I
sincerely urge you to pass along my concerns, and I'm sure those of
many others, to the SLT.  

Here are my reasons.

EINFs are a significant part of the remaining heritage of DIGITAL, and
as our jobs and other benefits are incrementally removed, EINFs
provide a means to vent frustrations and share (and encourage!!) the
beginnings of the healing that is a necessary precursor to the
recovery of the Corporation's morale.

As each TFSO date approaches, EINFs get simultaneously tenser and less
voluble...  It's as if the entire Corporation is holding its breath. 
Once the ax falls, the missing are mourned and then the survivors get
it together -- and move onwards.

EINFs provide a form of informal "instant networking" that builds
alliances across the world.  Several notes communities of which I am a
member have put me in contact with friends who trust me, and who have
solved organizational or technical hangups 100 times faster than
"official channels" ever could have.  I have friends in Printers, in
the CSC's, in the CBU's, in Marketing, in Sales Management, in the
field all over the world, you name it; I probably know someone there
who can help me, or whom I've helped.  There's a camaraderie from
EINFs because you KNOW the other person, you KNOW that you have
something in common with the other person, that they're not just a
seatwarmer; they have opinions, they have a maybe sharp, maybe funny,
mind you've seen working, you KNOW they're going to help you.  

This holds true even for those with whom we differ on matters
discussed in the EINFs -- many's the time I have helped, or been
helped by, someone whose opinions I have openly denigrated in debate.

How much is that networking worth in terms of customer satisfaction or
the increased "intellectual metabolic rate" of the Corporation?

EINFs provide a crucible within which "Valuing Differences" is debated
and strengthened.  People of varying verbal abilities compete in an
open marketplace of ideas, relatively free from the effects of
personal appearance, perceived place in the hierarchy, skin color,
age.  The loss of this milieu would be a tragic setback for the
Corporation's VoD efforts, I believe.  Such increasingly "de-
hierarchified" communities are the wave of the future, and are one of
the true intellectual ornaments of DIGITAL.  

If EINFs are proscribed, there will be large-scale and long-smoldering
resentment by those who understand what has been lost.  Activity will
be displaced into mailing-lists (with concomitant increases in EMail
activity and far more disk space being held for such traffic) or into
"underground notesfiles" in private space.  (DECnotes was specifically
invented as a means of lessening mailing-list activity.)  Network
management will waste human cycles tracking down "contraband notes
links" instead of doing useful work.  

If EINFs are proscribed, folks will also displace their activity into
USENET files, which will inevitably have the effect of "airing
DIGITAL's dirty laundry" outside the Corporation, since newsgroups
often leak to the general public.  Project-oriented notesfiles (PONFs)
will be "invaded" by folks whose social impulses used to be accomo-
dated by EINFs, slowing the progress of those project-oriented
discussions.  Moderators of those discussions will be burdened by
policing against those noters.  Acrimony levels will rise to boiling
points in many valuable PONFs, and several may cease operations as
their Moderators crumple under, and then reject the increased load.

I sincerely believe that proscribing EINFs would produce a firestorm
of internal protest on the same order of magnitude as the "vacation
accrual" debacle.  Doing it would be one indirect way to reduce the
employee count.  (Is this a design goal of the decision being
contemplated?  I hope not...)  

I hope not, because in my view, the abusers of EINFs (and there ARE a
few, a very few) are the sorts of tree-huggers who would NOT leave
DIGITAL as a result; I am confident that those who WOULD be "driven
over the edge" by such an ill-advised decision would be those like
myself, who find EINFs a great personal networking tool, and who
derive enjoyment from the learning and personal interactions in this
medium. 

Abusers of EINFs should continue to be dealt with under the normal
review process; I believe that removing this medium woud be punishing
the whole EINF community, and removing the extensive benefits I have
sketched, instead of the far more reasonable and appropriate step: 
that of enforcing managerial responsibility in individual cases.  In
my view, management failure is a poor excuse for undertaking this
spurious cost saving.

I believe it possible that those who consider this imho ill-advised
step have little DIRECT experience with the world of DECnotes, or with
ANY online messaging or conversational medium.  They may not realize
how smoothly one can "note" during lulls in the business day -- during
a compile, as a "breather," in lieu of wandering around...  in a
separate window.  They fail to note the surges of noting traffic in
off-hours, as we attempt to electronically converse during lunch-
breaks or at either end of our business day.  They look at time-
signatures and forget that these are for the time of day at the SERVER
rather than of the CLIENT user, who may be half a world away, noting
in their evening, with little to no impact on their local computing
resources.

I believe that any putative "dollar savings" that might be projected
from the cancellation of EINFs would be TOTALLY swamped by the wheel-
spinning amongst Corporate Management and Easynet Management and PONF
Moderators as they will have to divert their valuable cycles to deal
with the decision's intensely negative repercussions.

I further believe that proscribing EINFs would produce extremely bad
image feedback in the trade press, gossip columns etc. -- as
disgruntled employees put the worst possible spin on the decision.  It
would mark DIGITAL as a beleaguered company which was actually moving
BACKWARD, away from the increasing trend towards "electronic
communities," and as a company being led by managers who were cutting
the links between DIGITAL and the Electronic Data Highway because they
don't use it themselves and don't understand it.  Jurassic Park jokes
would switch from targeting IBM to DIGITAL.  That kind of publicity we
DON'T need.

I see where Bob Palmer is said, in Win Hindle's memo, not to want to
pay for EINFs.  My bottom-line contention is that DIGITAL's small
support level for EINF activity is being more than repaid by all the
pre-existing benefits sketched above.  The downside risk of
proscribing EINFs is not only losing those benefits (that as I said
were more than paying for the support costs), but of incurring all the
damage control costs I have also sketched.

=====

As it happens, I now sit in MSO2, and am available for any face-to-
face discussion you might be interested in having about this.

Thank you very much for considering my opinions.

Regards,

Dan Kalikow, Consultant   Corporate IM&T Information Delivery Utility Grp
Mailstop MSO2/F4  Office at Pole B3  DTN: 223-3562  Outside: 508/493-3562
DIGITAL:  111 Powdermill Road, Maynard MA  01754-1418   FAX: 508/493-7374
DECnet:  NRSTA2::KALIKOW  Internet replies to dan.kalikow@mso.mts.dec.com

    .54 is so close to the truth it hurts. and those at the top don't seem
    to give a damn. 

    Couple of things:
    
    USEnet/Internet Newsgroups could be configured locally and kept
                    firewalled inside the company for "Internal Groups"
    
    Personal Notesfiles have been replaced in my life by Usenet News
    groups (although I will revist some notesfiles once in a while to 
    catch up on the DECside of things).
    
    I read news and notes at night from my home (I receive about 20+MBytes
    1400+ newsgroups each day of USEnet News (and for you braggers the 
    newsfeed and mail is entirely free.) I run a local BBS for the local 
    DECUS LUG up for the last two years and feed mail and news to 4 Digital 
    Customers down stream from me;-) 
    
    wisniewski@fallout.lonestar.org -- at home;-)
    
    Professional Notes conferences give a real historical path to
    decisions, engineering and how we got where we are, extreamely
    valuable for new members of a team.
    
    And notes has some very fine search and archive ablities suited to 
    longterm storage and thread support.
    
    With that said, Easynet Personal Notesfiles (IMHO) are much more 
    pedestrian then the USEnet Groups and in many ways represent an 
    Elite "We're Digital and we have our own set of conferences" mentality,
    isolating and insulating us away from the greater Net community that 
    the rest of the industry participates in.
    
    Folks here have shared the value of having non workrelated topics
    available in notes I would submit that we should be reserving notes
    for Internal topics,private topics that make sense or would be
    historical value to Digital.
    
    The Greatful Dead, Star Trek and others would be better handled
    via Internet News which would allow Digital Employees to interact
    with People of like interest all across the world(s).  I fail to see
    the added value that a DIGITAL STAR TREK notesfile available only 
    to Easynet has over rec.arts.startrek on the Internet as an example
    (search tools not withstanding;-).
    
    
    There would be some education required to remind people that posting 
    or reading these USEnet conferences means communicating with folks 
    outside of the company (much the same way the ouside x.400 mail
    carries all the warnings about replying to this message).
    
    Please note(;-) that I am not advocating taking away Recreational 
    notes conferencing -- I would mearly suggest that these topics 
    are more appropriate shared with the Internet community.
    
    The topic was raised that we need to use Internet more, placing the
    recreational Newsgroups within easy reach of our employees would
    begin to teach these skills much of the rest of the industry
    has already mastered.
    
    Save Money -- NO not the point -- We should be expanding our use 
    of Digital And Internet resources and teaching all our employees
    how to use them -- The payback for a NETliterate trained workforce
    would be well beyond the few CPU cycles nessisary to read distriubted
    news and notes...
    
    Now I would be happy if any of the VPs of this company were able 
    to use a terminal, and read either a notesfile or USEnet Newsgroups.
    
    I'll leave you with a story about the Large wave of TFSO's we had
    last Fall.
    
    I was miserable, angry, a bit lost, many many of my friends and peers
    were no longer in notesfile, hasty goodbyes were scrawled in half
    a dozen notesfiles across the net.
    
    One of my bosses felt compelled to tell me that everything would be 
    fine, we hadn't done too badly (locally) with the TFSO's and asked 
    how I felt about things
    
    I replied that I felt like a ham radio operator during world war III.
    
    Bursts of friend's goodbye's and then nothing but static in the
    notefiles.  People from across the world I depended upon (electronically) 
    were gone. Teams of people I needed to contact no longer replied to 
    questions, good news, or even jokes. Nodes and friendly repositories of 
    software, info caches, and booty from the Net disappeared overnight.
    
    And as I struggled to remap what was left of the NETwork I once knew
    I realized the worst part of all was I hadn't even been able to even 
    say goodbye to many of them.  Swift as the net was, the downsizing was
    swifter.
    
    As I explained this to this manager I saw the glazed eye look of 
    nonunderstanding, someone not intune with the corporate communications
    culture that I took for granted, relied upon and used daily.
    
    After the layoffs I felt cheated, lost and disorented simply because
    my electronic path to other DEC people was now gone (within Digital)
    
    I stopped trying to explain, there was no common understanding.
    
    
    The corporate executives who can't use mail, don't know how to read
    notes, or use USEnet News, are Deaf Dumb and Blind in our industry
    (not just at DEC but blind to the entire Industry that holds court 
     on line every day).  
    
    Many of these executives are too blind to realize they live with
    industry blinders on.  I feel sorry for them.  They will not master 
    the technology they seek to control and manipulate.  All the MBAs
    in the world will not help if your decisions are made by information
    even 24 hours out of date.  If they don't master the medium, someone 
    who has will master them.  In our business the race is to the swift
    and the swiftest use Electronic information.
    
    In our business there is no excuse for not being on-line.  It replaces
    newspapers, encyclopedia, Libraries, Books, and literature, those
    who don't know it's power or seek to limit it's use (either for cost
    or censorship reasons) will find that Netliterate people will not 
    tolerate it's absence or control, and there are always public forums
    like Usenet, Compuserve or America On-Line to turn to.
    
    Many Executives are worried that we are leaking "Information" to the 
    outside world.  I wish they were more worried with using the
    Information that leaks in daily from the Internet to make money for 
    the company and sell our way out of the current problems we're 
    having.
    
    
    Be seeing you,
    
    John Wisniewski
    

  What really disappoints me about this isn't the possibility that
  non-business notes would disappear, but the pettiness of senior
  management. It raises questions in my mind about sincerity and
  competence.

  There are presumably two issues, here: misuse of resources, and loss
  of productivity.

  If management were sincere and professional about reducing waste of
  resources, there are SW tools which can, for example, automatically
  help identify and delete files which are no longer needed. The
  potential savings would probably *far* exceed anything to be gained by
  banning notes. I know, because a fellow who worked for me several
  years ago prototyped just such a tool in OPS5 (anyone remember
  Xpurge?). That project was "unfunded", because nobody could see a
  pressing need for a 5% (at least) reduction in capital expenditure on
  disk drives. The guy's currently a technical leader at IBM.

  But I digress (sorry, that was my personal axe grinding, there).

  If the issue is productivity rather than misuse of capital plant, then
  wouldn't it be simpler to make it a policy that "there will be no
  non-business-related use of facilities during a site's official work
  hours"? Sure, there would still be loopholes and abuses, and sure,
  this would be "unfair" to some employees who have different work
  hours, but the intent of the policy would be clear: personal use of
  computing resources on company time will not be tolerated, and abuse
  may result in termination. And by making the intent clear, it would
  close the biggest and most wasteful loopholes of all: all those other
  avenues employees would find to accomplish the same thing, such as
  external newsgroups, mailing lists, etc.

  One must wonder: will it stop at notesfiles? Or is senior management
  intent on making sure employees don't have any fun during work hours?
  After all, what is morale but being happy with all major aspects of
  your life at work? Why don't we just get rid of coffee stations,
  refrigerators, windows, comfortable toilet paper, carpeting, etc. None
  of these extra expenses contribute directly to the bottom line. All
  they do is help keep morale from going through the floor. Heck, the
  job is great. The pay is great. The benefits are great. What do you
  need any of those other frills for? Respect? That costs money.

  Disgusted. Well, my build finished, so I'm back to sleep.

What's all this doom and gloom? This is _great_ news. We must be well on the
road to recovery with growing revenue and profit for the SLT to take time out
to discuss employee recreation!

Dave.

    Indeed Dave. There have been some magnificent notes in here, but
    really, think positively. Think how well the Company must be doing if
    we can spare the time of no less than THREE VPs to investigate this
    "problem". Imagine how well we must be doing...
    
    Just about the only thing that has kept this company going is
    electronic communications. Without the rapid and meaningful exchange of
    information, knowledge and expertise that electronic communications
    facilitate, we'd be just another disjointed, lumbering giant. A doomed
    one at that.
    
    As a previous noter said, to have senior management that don't even
    begin to understand how all this works, is frightening.
    
    That said, there was a time when, like Dan Kalikow, I could put my
    finger on an answer to a technnical question within minutes, simply by
    mailing an "electronic" contact, usually found through non-work-related
    notes conferences. It's much harder now, most of them have left...
    Perhaps, therefore, all this is moot.
    
    What has become of us?
    
    Laurie.

    Out of the non-business related conferences in EASYNOTES.LIS, how many
    blocks are we talking about?   What sort of network traffic are we
    going to save?  O.k.   put that on the left hand side of the scale.   
    How much work time is spent reading/replying?   Hopefully management
    has looked into this (alot of tangables here).   
    
    Next put all of the friendship, human networking, constructive thought,
    conversation, life experience sharing which is done thru non-business
    related conferences and press the flush handle.   Hopefully managment
    has looked into this.   It doesn't make any  (cents?) to me.  I would 
    make bad management material.   So much for "Digital Culture".

DIGITAL stock climbed 1 1/8 points yesturday in heavy trading.  An 
internal memo leaked to Wall Street analysts outlining a plan to
eliminate employee-interest "Notesfiles" was the source of the rise
in the stock.  Notefiles, as they are known in Digital, are electronic
bulliten boards used to organize and exchange information using a 
computer network.  There are rumored to be hundreds of employee-interest
Notefiles on Digital's computer systems, hogging up millions of blocks of
disk space, ranging in topics from TV to Car repair to the Grateful Dead.  
One analyst was quoted saying, "They're going to save a little bit of 
money, get perhaps a little bit more production out of the employees, but 
most of all, many employees will leave Digital and the headcount will be 
reduced without having to payout any severence package."  The plan is
currently under consideration by senior management, a group rumored to
rarely use Notefiles.


:-)


Sorry folks, couldn't resist...  we all need a little laughter in our
lives every now and then, at least I do, especially given the times in
this company that is slowly losing its once unique environment.  I don't
normally read this conference, so send any flames to NLA0:  ...

    
    Couple of points:
    
    1. Nobody followed up on the request about the cost of the
       EINFs, other than to say $2.00/person.  I also would
       like to know the unit.
    
    2. In keeping with Bob Palmer's philosophies of data-driven
       decisions and open employee communication, I believe it is 
       incumbent upon any senior manager who is empowered (yechh! I
       hate that word) to close these files to openly communicate
       the data from which he or she derived the final decision.
    
    3. (Counter to point 2): a true cost/benefit analysis, yielding
       real data, will be extremely difficult to execute, for the
       same reasons that it is difficult to quantify the business
       benefits of installing a new information system (for example).
       How do you accurately reflect the benefit side?
    
    Glenn (who has no interests outside of Digital, and therefore never
           participates in EINFs other than this one :-))
    

re: .78, Glenn

re: Point 1 - I believe Alfred covered that in .28.

-Jack

    
    re: .79.  Absolutely right.  Sorry I missed it (mind like a
    steel sieve).  If that number is right, then I would have a 
    real hard time agreeing with a decision to shut them down
    (like it matters.)
    
    Jack, thanks for pointing out the oversight.
    
    Glenn  
    
     

    re .77
    
    no fair, JC! My blood pressure is already too high!

    
    
    	I went to confession yesterday evening and as I talked about
    	reading non-business notesfiles the priest seemed to smile
    	as he told me that God perhaps might not regard discussing
    	'workarounds' (as long as Notes does still exist)
    	 as a major sin. I breathed a deep sigh of relief when he also
    	granted absolution for discusssing 'workarounds' in case 
    	managment might shutdown Internet Gateways too.
    
    
    							helmut 

    I recently saw a survey some enterprising soul did on NOTES usage,
    listing the top 20 in notes volume. Most were non-business-related.
    The top two (and by far mega-notes higher in volume higher than the rest) 
    were
    
    		SOAPBOX and DIGITAL!
    
    When I saw the survey, I was a bit shocked at where the network cycles
    (and people cycles) were going. If this type of survey found its way
    into the hands of the SLT, it is *very* understandable that they might
    put out the directive in .0.

    Re the $2 per employee per year figure.
    
    This perhaps implies that it would cost MORE to shut down the notes
    files (and examine whether we should do it or not) than it does to
    leave them as they lie.
    	(VP Time, Manager Time, System manager time, ....)
    
    Bill (Whose build just finished)
    

re: .83

re: DIGITAL.NOTE == non-business-related

Here we go again with the "is it a breath mint or is it a candy mint" semantics
game.

For many people, DIGITAL.NOTE is very much a business related conference. As
a manager I feel it's my responsibility to be aware of the issues and views
raised in here. Where else am I supposed to find meaningful information with
which to formulate answers to questions posed by my direct reports? From
the wealth of knowledge available at my fingertips in LIVEWIRE? NOT!

I don't mean to rathole this topic with the argument in paragraph 1 above,
but part of the issue if the SLT were to arrive at the dreaded decision
might be "Which ones are business related or not and to whom?" All business
related conferences don't necessarily have to deal with a particular product,
discipline or market segment. Business is bigger than those components.

-Jack

    RE: .83
    
    Of course SOAPBOX and DIGITAL are highly used. These are world wide
    conferences, thus drawing many more employees from all over the Digital
    world.... 
    
    As for the high use, just because they are high usage, means nothing.
    The times in which these conferences are accessed means nothing, due to
    the world wide access. There are employees in all time-zones across
    Digital.
    
    So, merely saying a particular conference is over/highly used, does not
    render that conference harmful or abused... and causing the company to
    loose money or man(person)hours....
    
    Now, I am writing this at 08:51 (that is mountain daylight time)... BUT, 
    I have been afforded a short break, and elected to reply in this 
    conference during that time. I am not causing the company to loose time
    or money. 
    
    Loosing the non-business notesfiles would be the straw which breaks the
    camels' back...!
    
    Just an opinion!
    
    Bob G.
    

    re. replies .85 and .86
    
    If you believe certain NOTES files, which "appear" to be not 
    work-related are valuable, then let Hindle, et al, know. 
    
     

    >    I recently saw a survey some enterprising soul did on NOTES usage,
>    listing the top 20 in notes volume. Most were non-business-related.
>    The top two (and by far mega-notes higher in volume higher than the rest) 
>    were
>    
>    		SOAPBOX and DIGITAL!

    A few points. I'd be interesting in knowing the methodology that was
    used. What was "counted" to come up with this? Total notes? Notes added
    per day? Some count of readership? I suspect that some of the technical
    conferences have a far greater readership than would be indicated by
    the notes written to them. Especially AXP related conferences were the
    number of experts is small but the number of people needing to know
    things is very very high.

    Secondly, my own counting several years ago showed that there are
    somewhere between 20 and 30 business related conferences for every
    employee interest conference. Even if one or two conferences have a
    very high usage I doubt they make a dent in the amount of business
    related usage. Most employee interest conferences are very low volume
    compared to business related conferences.

    BTW, at least one senior manager who hosted DIGITAL on his system for
    many years considers it a business related conference.

    			Alfred

    Re: .88
    
    I saw the survey - it only counted total notes, which tends to bias
    towards files which have not "turned over" new versions since inception,
    such as DIGITAL and (I think) SOAPBOX.  Most telling is that one of
    the "top 10" is an archived conference with NO current activity,
    MENNOTES_V1.  These figures are totally meaningless in the context
    of determining "use of resources".
    
    It is my belief that employee-interest noting saves Digital far more
    money and employee productivity than it costs, and that an attempt to
    "shut down" employee-interest noting would be the equivalent of
    a bullet to the brain of the corporation.  If nothing else, as others
    have mentioned, it would be extremely expensive to implement such a
    policy, especially as many conferences defy easy categorization.
    (DIGITAL is definitely business-related, and I could make a good case
    for ASKENET as well.  The "valuing diversity" conferences such as
    WOMANNOTES and MENNOTES have been long recognized by the corporation as
    supporting corporate goals.  I've even seen obstensible hobbyist
    conferences such as VIDEO used as a resource for solving business
    problems.)
    
    Notes serves to hold us all together in these most stressful times.
    To destroy the Digital employee community spirit would be to destroy
    Digital.
    
    				Steve

    Some of the best contact I made in this corporation I've made through 
    Employee-Interest notes.  
    
    In one conference that I followed many years ago, I came in contact
    with people who worked in the compiler groups, languages and tools,
    base engineering, networking, and so on.  When I needed to get
    information about specific compilers, etc., I knew who to ask.  If
    the person I asked wasn't the right one, he/she was at most two people
    away from the right person.  I made my WORK contacts through some of
    my non-work activity.  Without this so-called "non-work-related"
    conference, I would not have been able to have done my job as
    effectively.
    
    The conference?  It happened to be TRIVIA.  The results of my following
    it were anything but trivial.

 RE: Notes shut down.

  It does not matter what we think about the issue 

	because    --->   

	that has not changed the outcomes before.

   	The vacation accrual change still went through
	along with all of the other things that the employees
	didn't want (see 2605.54). 

	So what difference will this discussion make? 


	If the decision has already been made then that's
	what will happen.

	The response from the upper levels will be the same
	as the words of a recent song:

	"Here's a quarter, call someone who cares."

  

And therefore the people who can see no farther than Mass. Rt. 128 forget that
the world IS a larger place than they can think of.

Here are the reasons to keep any and all VAXnotes conferences open.

1)  I communicate with engineers about products, problems and ideas
	by sharing the previous conversations in notes conferences instead
	of having to interrupt someone to ask them the same damn question
	they've been asked 100 or more times.

2)  I can keep-up with ideas that make the Digital corporate culture work.
	If I can talk about beer with an engineer in Scotland, I may find
	that this person has solved a device problem long ago, and oh yeah
	it came about because I met that person in the beer notes conference.
	We have some of the worlds best engineers.  Do you really want them
	to go somewhere else because they can't start a notes conference on
	blenders, or some other such thing?

3)  I can communicate with others in this corporation and solicit ideas with-
	out getting ANY management involved.  I used to work in a U.S.Govern-
	ment laboratory and it would take THREE (3) people to sign-off on a
	cross organizational memo.  Does Bobby P. want this -- I don't bloody
	think so...  Communicational freedom makes Digital work more than
	any non-product producing task-force will.

The management of this corporation had better wise-up or they will be
masturbating with their organizational charts with no-one to fill them!

If the real cost cutting wizz-kids want to really do some good, how about asking
VP levels if they'd like to take a 1% paycut until the company shows consistant
profit production?  OH NO!  You mean actually cause our precious VP's some
*pain*?  God forbid we should ask for accountability in a place where it'll get
a VP's attention...

It is no suprise that I'll have to learn Japanese if I want to continue in this
business.

    
    
    I find it interesting that the memo explicitly said that they
    (management)don't want this to get out and then have to retract 
    it (like so many other things before), yet it is being discussed 
    in this forum.  
    
    
    
    Mike

    I think notes is a wonderful media that we are lucky to have. I learned
    a lot from them. If they are going to close the 'non work related' why
    dont they close it from 8:30 to noon, open it for lunch hour, and close
    it again until 5:00. Then you wont be noting on company time. They
    non-work related notesfiles are valuable for employees, please dont
    take them away, work around the issue and seek alternative routes.

>>          <<< Note 2605.94 by HYEND::LSIGEL "Painted Pony phanatic" >>>
>>                              -< Work around it! >-
>>
>>    I think notes is a wonderful media that we are lucky to have. I learned
>>    a lot from them. If they are going to close the 'non work related' why
>>    dont they close it from 8:30 to noon, open it for lunch hour, and close
>>    it again until 5:00. Then you wont be noting on company time. They
>>    non-work related notesfiles are valuable for employees, please dont
>>    take them away, work around the issue and seek alternative routes.

Again, who's time are we talking about?  I correspond with folks around the
world.  What is in the 10 am for us is 6 pm in Germany.  Things do happen in
notes outside of the New England area.  FWIW....

Judy

    also not everyone goes to lunch at 12:00 to 12:45....

When I send my message to Ron, it will be short and simple.  Remember the KISS
principle?  If he doesn't see everything he needs in the 1st couple lines, he's 
not going to read it.  These long dissertations have alot of info in them but 
they need to be to the point, otherwise it will give the impression we ramble 
in our noting also, which wastes time, resources and money.  Of course, this 
is IMHO and your mileage may vary.

In the past, I've sent Ron messages that were 2 screens long and never heard
back from him....even when directly asking for a reply.  :-(

Judy

    
>    I find it interesting that the memo explicitly said that they
>    (management)don't want this to get out and then have to retract 
>    it (like so many other things before), yet it is being discussed 
>    in this forum.  

    Things in mail seem to "get out" even faster than things posted in
    Notes. If management is interested in keeping things "close to the
    vest" they should consider using members only conferences rather than
    mail for a lot of this stuff.

    			Alfred

     Re .96
    
    ...And ALSO remember...not every Digital employee works 100% of the
    time with a terminal...in fact, some of us work about 90% OFF
    terminal...so I could be "logged in" to some conference and be doing 
    something entirely different simultaneously, which is what I do  a 
    fair amount of the time....only scanning a file occasionally..
    
     JM
    
     

    Another thought. If a person gets the required work done, what is the
    harm of noting in work related conferences anytime during the day.
    
    

Let's say you wanted to actually implement such a policy in a
reasonably reliable and unambiguous form. Here's what I'd do:

1. Establish a registry of approved conferences and their moderators.
2. Establish a body, to be chaired by a VP, with membership from legal,
whose charter it would be to approve applications for conference creation.
3. Establish a set of criteria which said body would use to make decisions.
4. Evaluate all existing conferences, closing those which are deemed to
be non-business-related.
5. Establish and administer an enforcement process by which conferences
would be monitored for conformance to guidelines and reviewed periodically.

This is so obviously ludicrous that nobody, not even a heavily-biased,
uncaring senior executive would consider proposing it (I hope!). But I
ask you: what would you do if you accepted the charter to implement
such a policy? How much less could you do and expect it to succeed in
accomplishing its objectives (of reducing resource waste lost productivity)?

- Mike, who thinks that this is not a non-business-related issue!

 I don't imagine that VAX Notes has a development/enhancement budget..., but
 "if" a corporation could categorize and identify conferences as work-related 
 or non-work-related at the server side, maybe the Notes client could control
 the times that non-work-related conferences could be accessed, at least
 during the client's normal work-day.  Does that make sense?  It doesn't 
 account for the expense of the disk space being consumed, but it would 
 limit non-work-related noting to management-acceptable hours.

 Having this feature might have enabled Digital to sell more VAX Notes 
 licenses.

- Jim

.102> Having this feature might have enabled Digital to sell more VAX Notes 
.102> licenses.
    
    ...which assumes that Digital was ever interested in selling VAX Notes
    licenses...
    

    The very fact that "senior" management is looking into elimination
    of the files...without getting their information *first* speaks
    volumes to me !
    
    What a Joke.
    
    Marc H.

    
    
FWIW............
    
From:	USCTR1::JHERNBERG    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man/woman is king/queen!"  4-AUG-1993 14:32:36.69
To:	ICS::GLOVER
CC:	JHERNBERG
Subj:	Fact-finding into the elimination of non-business notes conferences.




Mr. Ron Glover, Manager
Corporate Employee Relations and Diversity

August 4, 1993

Dear Mr. Glover;

It is with mixed feelings that I read Win Hindle's memo of July 29th; subject
being NON-BUSINESS USE OF NOTES FILES.

I am very glad to see that there will be an assessment of the effect on morale
of eliminating non-business notes conferences before they are terminated.  This
shows a recognition of and respect for the effect this action will have on the
employees of Digital and saves the embarrassment of possibly having to reverse
a hasty decision.  Thank you to Mr. Hindle for this consideration.

However, I feel deep regret at the possibility of losing the non-business use
of notes files.  The use of notesfiles, both business and non-business has
allowed me to perform my job responsibilities with greater efficiency, effec-
tiveness and a touch of good humor; an invaluable element in these days of 
tension and uncertainty.  

Since the "bottom line" is what appears to be of paramount import, I can say
from personal, on-the-job experiences, that what I have learned in the PC and 
related files (not necessarily work related as much does not have to do with
DEC systems, products, etc. or computing per se) has enabled me to help my 
cost center acquire, build, and use personal computers.  I doubt if I could
have done this without the information and encouragement I have received from
fellow noters.  My efforts have saved my cost center scarce dollars and pro-
vided them with the resources our group manager is attempting to introduce
and unify throughout our group to increase productivity.  Perhaps this is not
a feat of great proportion but when you consider that I am a secretary, being
paid a secretary's wage and doing work far outside my job description, this 
also becomes a cost savings to my cost center and this company's bottom line.  

As for those notes files that have no connection with work in any way, I have
still learned a great deal from them, not the least of which is to cope pro-
ductively in the unsettled environment of Digital and the computer industry.

Please seek diligently to find the true value of non-business notes files and
to make a fair and considered finding.  Thank you for taking the time to read
my letter.


Respectfully submitted,

Janis R. Hernberg
USCTR1::JHERNBERG
297-5449

    For some history, some of you may want to re-read topic 111 in this
    conference. It is about management shutting down one (1) non business
    related conference. During that discussion the host node of this conference
    (a much smaller slower node then we have today) was brought to its
    knees because of the network connections. The furor that it brought
    about led to lots of meetings with managers in personnel, legal, and
    other organizations. There were discussions in other conferences as
    well. There was a lot of fuss.

    If anyone who knows that story imagines that the fuss would be less
    if all employee interest conferences were shut down I sure hope they
    are not in a management position.

    			Alfred

    
    i you folks want, i can write a memo to Ron myself on behave of all of
    us, since he is not going to read zillions of mail messages from all
    of us, i was thinking to write on for all of us and to the point.

    you guys want me to do this?

    \nasser

    RE: .107
    
    No
    
    Marc H.

    RE .107
    
    Please don't
    
    Joyce

    re. .106
    
    A quick look at .0 and .last of 111 shows that to have occurred during
    1986-1989. That was then, this is now. The SLT is a new crew.
    
    (and BTW, loading up this notes file with traffic would elevate it up on
              top 20 list of "busy non-work" files, perhaps? ;-))
    

RE:     <<< Note 2605.107 by STAR::ABBASI "play chess, its good 4 u" >>>

>    i you folks want, i can write a memo to Ron myself on behave of all of
>    us, 

     I don't think Mr. Glover has a translator on his staff.

                                     Greg

    re: .111
    
    I'll second that.  I don't think there is a translator for that 
    particular dialect.
    
    bk

    It's been said before, but please bear with me as I repeat it in my own
    words.  This is not a new issue.  There have been complaints in the
    past.  Each time it was determined that the benefits outweighed the
    costs.  Let's support our cause, and if the SLT can convince
    the line managers that it's their job to keep all of us happy and
    productive, then the notesfiles will remain.
    
    Mark

    All I can say is that I have recived help from the non business
    notes files. This help has inabled me to get throught some tough time
    in my life. With out the notes files I think my work would have
    suffered. Being able to ask for information and getting it help one
    keep there mind on there work and off the problem. The support I have
    reviced from these notes file has inabled me to grow and survive some
    ruff periods in my life. I have seen the help and impact it has made on
    other peoples lifes also. If these files go I think that I may need to
    find another place to work. This is one vary little bennifit but it
    means so much to so many people, I belive that moral would suffer
    greatly. Moral in the trenches is so low that any thing that would
    cause it to go lower would just eliminate it all together. But I guess
    that and up side if there is no moral then you don't have a moral
    problem right ? 
    
    
    Kimberly
    

    FWIW, there was talk of shutting down employee interest note files
    around the time of the DCU uproar a couple of years ago.  
    
    Some of you may remember that on 30-Jan-1992 John Sims sent a memo 
    entitled, "A message to employee interest notes file users."  This 
    memo was written in reponse to "a number of complaints" about the 
    materials being circulated in notes.  This memo was unique in its 
    timing and emphasized guidelines for note usage.  In particular, this 
    memo came out just as several candidates for DCU Board of Director 
    positions were beginning to gather signatures and announcing their 
    intentions.  The memo's true intent was speculated by some to 
    involve minimizing the effect of notes participation for petition 
    candidates.  The previous DCU BoD candidates had already been circulated 
    widely in electronic and other announcements about two weeks before.
    
    Just before the elections many may recall that John Sims also issued 
    a letter to all DCU shareholders encouraging them to study the 
    candidates carefully before voting.  Again, the timeliness of this 
    communication is felt by many to be related to events associated with 
    the DCU elections.  Some felt this memo implied that certain of the 
    candidates on the ballot (particularly among the petition candidates) 
    were not appropriate for service on the Board.  Certainly this was the 
    position of high-level Digital managers that served on the Board 
    that was being entirely replaced.  Several of the petition candidates
    were elected and continue to serve.
    
    Since that time, of course, the DCU has made many changes under the new
    Board.  Although things are not perfect, shareholders continue to enjoy
    no-fees checking as well as other benefits.  And, the DCU made
    somewhere around $5M in 1992.  I understand that 1993 promises to be
    similarly fruitful.  Shareholder interest in the DCU has seemingly also
    turned from a painfully high number willing to close their accounts to
    a great number who actually care and participate in the BoD election 
    process.
    
    I'd say the DCU notes, a non-business note file, greatly served the needs 
    of Digital employees as it was a crucial part of the process of turning 
    the DCU around.  It was definitely a part of the communications link to
    shareholders that was necessary for positive changes to happen at the
    DCU.  I anticipate that it will continue to be.  BoD elections are
    coming up again and there will be positions open.
    
    One point is that management may well have other reasons for
    controlling employee interest note files or other methods of
    communication which reasons are not necessarily related to wasted time 
    or resources.  Another point is that a non-business note file may well
    demonstrate a value and benefit to the company that could be estimated 
    to be worth a lot of real money.
    
    Steve

    	Geez, and the flack I got for complaining about the Wellness Center
    funding being cut! I'm sure they'll really save a bundle by shutting
    down non-business NOTEs files. In fact, despite what others have said,
    I bet this is one of them. Hey, this morning I was told that the
    dehumidifier for the Wellness Center here in ZKO was broken and they
    were thinking about not fixing it to save money! I say, if we're in
    such dire straits as this, let's just LOCK THE DAMN DOORS AND THROW
    AWAY THE KEYS. I mean, really. This slow bleeding to death is getting
    very tiresome. Put us out of our misery, pull out the 12-gauge, and do
    us all a favor and blow our heads off.

    Ya know, there seems to be some hanky-panky going on here. Here there
    is talk of shutting down the employee interest notesfiles... Then, low
    and behold, I have a flier for "INTERNET ACCESS" from a company called
    "Spectrum Online Systems Inc." show up on my windshield, along with the
    other autos in our Digital parking lot...
    
    Does seem mighty timely advertising... 
    
    Has anyone else, outside Colorado Springs (CXO3) seen these fliers.?
    
    Curiouser and curiouser it gets!!
    
    Bob G.
    

  Is it possible that all the VP notes in this conference and overall
  management bashing in other notes conferences may have contributed to
  the 'vigorous' discussions among the SLT ?

Avinash

    The un-work related note-conferences should be left alone.   I am in
    some of them.   I am working in Galway, Ireland.   I have made 
    friends through these conferences in the States.   I would never have
    known these people ever existed, if it was not for these conferences.
    I have also got great help from them for infertility problems, then
    when I was pregnant and when my child was ill.   From the history
    and Celts conferences I have also learned alot. 
    
    It is not that we are at these conferences during working times.   I
    use them during break-times.    Digital will only get peoples backs
    up, all to save a small amount of Dollars.   Why not leave these
    conferences alone and keep everybody happy.
    
    
    
    Bernie

    
>  Is it possible that all the VP notes in this conference and overall
>  management bashing in other notes conferences may have contributed to
>  the 'vigorous' discussions among the SLT ?

    Only if we have some seriously childish and thin skinned senior
    mangers. :-)

    		Alfred

        hi!

    sorry , but i really don't know what SLT stands for? i am sure it
    is said before but i must have missed between the lines.

    could some kind DECeeee please explain what this SLT is? is new
    group just set up to look at shutting notes down?

    thanks a bunch !

    \bye!
    \nasser

re: .122
Nassar;

Senior Leadership Team..

- George

re .117 (Internet access fliers):

     I interviewed at General Videotext (aka Delphi aka BIX) a few weeks
ago & have also talked with a few Internet access providers.  There's a 
general consciousness out there (in the Internet access industry) that
DECcies (and especially recent exDECcies) are turning increasingly to the
Internet to feel connected.  We're a recognized & growing market segment.:-)

re this whole thing:

     The first that struck me when I heard this was "Wow.  Those bozos
at the top are REALLY out of touch with the average employee".  Then I
thought, well, they can't all be bozos.  Palmer actually seems sorta
sharp in certain respects. . .

     The following is from the NSL Internet Resource Guide:

	A recent survey of 700,000 bulletin board ("newsgroup") messages
	posted to the Internet worldwide showed this participation:

		8795	Hewlett-Packard
		3690	International Business Machines
		3455	Sun Microsystems
		2696	Motorola
		2208	Apple Computer
		1706	Digital Equipment Corporation

	Digital's low profile in the Internet newsgroups might be
	construed by some customers as a lack of interest

      I, for one, think it's somewhat humiliating to be outposted by a
buncha stuffed shirts like IBM (even if they are N times bigger than us).
HP's the same size & outposts us 5 to 1.  I think this is an example of
DEC staring at its own navel.

      Still, the idea of shutting down non-business notesfiles does suck,
for all the reasons mentioned here and more.  My favorite horror-show
image is not the initial reaction from shutting down the notesfiles, but
the reaction to the first person martyred by the notesfile enforcement
net - that scenario has the makings of ill will, strife and lower-than-
you-could've-imagined morale.

re Note 2605.124 by VMSDEV::PRAETORIUS:

>      The first that struck me when I heard this was "Wow.  Those bozos
> at the top are REALLY out of touch with the average employee".  Then I
> thought, well, they can't all be bozos.  

        Being "out of touch" is independent of being a "bozo".  Some
        very smart people get to be out of touch.

        Bob

        P.S.  Isn't "Bozo" some sort of trademark that we should
        treat accordingly? :-)

    
    Tomorrow is my last day with Digital - I am going to work for Lotus.  I
    have been with the company for over 11 years, as a manager for the past
    10.  During that time, I have read many notes conferences, written
    only occasionally.  Over the years, a number of us met
    our future husbands/wives, bought/sold our houses and cars, 
    found piano teachers for our children (and pianos), sourced good
    restaurants, found people to sail with,  met and made friends around
    the world. That was all part of the prized and now lost Digital culture.
    As we were literate with networks and tools, so we also solved
    work-related problems and helped Digital make money.
    
    There are many indicators of regressive change in Digital towards 
    a centralized, top-down, hierarchical company - as it shrinks
    in population, so it grows in big-company style, methods,
    decision-making and culture.   Some of these changes are
    almost ludicrous in their symbolism of this new style of
    controlled communication: what kind of company eliminates 
    its employee suggestion program (DELTA) in this era of employee
    empowerment and Total Quality Management?   
    
    The irony of the Notes file issue is that Lotus is just beginning
    to understand the potential of its NOTES product and its uniqueness
    in helping companies flatten their organizations and broaden their
    communications channels.  Network software companies are exploiting
    this and making lots of money doing so.   Digital, the pioneer of
    networking, cross-organizational communication and entrepreneurial
    culture, may shut these capabilities down just as the rest of the
    industrial world has figured out that there's lots to be learned and
    lots of money to be spent and made with tools like NOTES.
    
    I used to consider it a privilege to work here.  In the past year
    or so, it has become a defeating experience.  This is yet another
    confirmation that the time has come.  Thanks to all and good-bye.
    
    Regards,
    
    Laurie Orlov 
    (after August 23, "Laurie_orlov@crd.lotus.com")
    

    Ya... BOZO is a success story dating back to th mid/late 50s. I use to
    watch BOZO the clown when I was just a little tike.... Was a pretty
    good show..! He is still on TV, in some parts of the country.. Not the
    same person under the clown suit, obviously...
    
    Can't be to bad, Willard Scott (weather guy on the TODAY show) was a
    BOZO in his hay day..... I mean that in a respectful way..!
    
    If Digital was a "household name" like BOZO "the clown" is/was a
    household name, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation right now.
    
    Later.!
    
    Bob G.
    

I don't really see why this should be such a big issue, when you compare it
to the more serious morale-breakers that employees have seen over the last
couple of years (the ever-declining TFSO package and the whittling away of
health insurance benefits seem much worse to me).  HOWEVER, it seems like a
lot of people are very emotional on this issue (on both sides, probably),
and I question why upper management would want to pick this time to promote
a "civil war" mindset.

There are some consequences that could be deeply troubling.  What if non-work
notesfiles are shut down and engineers boycott the work-related files?  Will
managers who have been looking down their noses at Notes for years suddenly
be in the position of having to order their ICs to use them?  What if people
deleted their own notes from work-related conferences?  Would this be seen as
destruction of company assets?  (Considering the value of the technical data
on problems and workarounds, I'd think it should be considered that way--but
how could you control this when nothing prevents people from deleting their
own notes now and management has never recognized notesfiles as an important
company asset?)  Hopefully it wouldn't get to this, but...

It seems to me they could just segregate the non-work notesfiles to a half
dozen IM&T systems and hack the NOTES$SERVER login procedure to recognize
the timezone of the incoming connection and reject it if it's between 8-6 in
that timezone.  That sounds like about 20 lines of DCL.

Re: .126 -- good note!
								Paul

[RE: Laurie Orlov]

Note .126 makes some points that have been missed thus far; I hope Laurie
gets to see this before she leaves. 

>    As we were literate with networks and tools, so we also solved
>    work-related problems and helped Digital make money.

And now, the market has changed. We used to be literate in minis and disks
and printers; then we were literate in networks and tools. At each stage, we
solved our own problems out of self-interest (to get our job done better)
but in the process, built things our customers wanted/needed too. There's no
better way to know what to build than to be a customer yourself.

Now the market is moving away from h/w (unless you're Sun or Intel) and away
from s/w (unless you're Microsoft (OK, Laurie, or perhaps Lotus :-)).
But much of the market is moving toward information. In fact, guess what?
We're moving into the information revolution. And by cutting off the flow of
information, the SLT (if it decided to do this) will be preventing us from
being our own customers, and thus being literate in information technology.
Our customers will have serious information
management/sharing/discovery/filtering needs, and we (the Digital technical
community) won't have a clue how to solve them. So guess who they'll turn
to? Lotus.

To say that non-business note files are an expense is missing the point. To
say they improve communication only sideswipes the point. What they
accomplish best is plunging Digital into the world of information
management. The more we play in that world, the more we feel the pain of the
information explosion, the benefits of organization-flattening, the
increased productivity from having the right information available at the
right time -- the better we will help our customers do the same. By
shielding ourselves from this aspect of corporate business, we cut ourselves
off from a major area of business opportunity.

-Meyer

re .126

Laurie - I will miss your leadership in defining what teamwork in this
company is really all about.  Losing leaders like you, for the reasons 
that you are going, is indeed very sad.  Best of luck.

    
    RE:.126 (Laurie),
    
    Excellent note. Short, clear and to the point. There is much wisdom
    in your words.
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Neil
    

Well, let's see. The topic started late Aug 2nd, and in less than 4 full days
has generated 130 replies. I'd say that demonstrated a strong concern.

    	You really have to wonder *how* anybody could make an "informed"
    decision on this matter (an arbitrary decision is easy). It's next to
    impossible to measure the cost savings of such a scheme very
    accurately. And how do you measure morale? Are they only concerned with
    how many people leave the company because of this issue? If so, they
    better be MORE worried about those who remain. What I keep hearing
    again and again is that people will merely work less to make up for the
    decrease in benefits...and that it would be *easy* to get away with.
    So how do you measure the impact to the company of people just not
    working as hard anymore? It won't be obvious in the short-term, but it
    will be very clear in the long-term. I hope the morale measurement
    takes this sort of thing into account and doesn't just count people
    leaving.

    Even 130 replies is less than the number of VP positions.  We're still
    outnumbered ...  ;^)
    
    Actually, it sounds to me like SOMEONE is listening.  In order for 3 
    VPs to have argued over shutting down non-business notes there had to 
    have been at least ONE that was fighting to keep information open and
    flowing.  That's one way to look at it, anyway.
    
    Steve (who observes that even lawyers are ALWAYS wrong half the time)

    any one knows when LSE (or LES?) is going to decide on this issue?

    we are talking about this but i dont think any one mentioned
    when the decision will be made and how will we know if it is made,
    and how it will be implemented ?

    thanks!

    \nasser

    The parenting notes conference just pointed this note out to
    us, and I thought I'd put in my $0.02 CDN in.
    To me the notes files are not only a very important part of my
    everyday life, they may have just helped me keep my sanity.
    I consider communication with "the rest of the Digital world" important
    to keep my prespective on the company as a whole. As an international
    whole. I speak daily to people on technology and social issues
    throughout the world and its focused my thinking to the "big picture"
    of Digital.
    
    As a personal experience, I went through a family tragedy two years ago
    (first child stillborn). Other members of a non-business related notes
    conference (Parenting), who I considered my long-distance friends, were
    directly responsible for my ability to cope with my grieving enough to
    get back into it at work. What could have cost our company a lot in
    long term disability was shortened to a mere five weeks - I was logged
    into the system everyday, as countless Parenting participants wrote
    to me offering sympathy, advice and the opportunity just to "talk".
    
    I believe this to be but a small example of the benefits of such
    non-business conferences. They have enriched my life, helped my
    stress and in general helped me be a better employee.
    
    Could this be that no VP has had this type of benefit pointed out to 
    them?
    
    Monica
    A member of the international Digital community, thanks to NOTES 
    
                                                                    

    
    If Digital Veeps "Take a dive from their Ivory Towers" and noted a
    little (maybe some are lurkers) they might see the benefits and might
    even learn something.
    
    -Ed
    

    
    	Re - 2
    
    >Could this be that no VP has had this type of benefit pointed out to 
    >them?
    
    	If they havent, I'd think that your experience would be a perfect
    example.
    
    Notes are one of the few things about working in the Digital networked
    computing environment that's *humanizing*. I dont get this trend toward
    dehumanizing everything, just to save a few short term dollars... 
    
    	I am one of those people who feel it's reasonable and appropriate
    to "take the time" to offer another Digital employee advice, understanding, 
    validation, sympathy, contact, a human connection, etc etc in notes.
    
    	I believe that a bit of my time given can be to another's immediate
    benefit, and, as part of a whole community of people sharing and acting
    on that belief, be to the ultimate long term benefit of the corporation. 
    
    	>"They have enriched my life, helped my
        >stress and in general helped me be a better employee"

    	Not too difficult to understand.
    
    	Joe

    
    It seems to me that when they find out just how much non-work noting is
    going on by how many employees, it should seem immediately apparent
    that the attention and focus required to shut it down would leave no
    time for anything else.
    
    They'll find out what it was like for the Feds during Prohibition.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    
    

re Note 2605.139 by GSFSYS::MACDONALD:

>     They'll find out what it was like for the Feds during Prohibition.

        Some might take that as a challenge.

        Bob

    Re: KALIKOW
    
    		Good, excellent, that is what I call being pro-active.
    It seems that you do practice what you preach (Managing by Wandering
    Around).
    
    		If you have the opportunity of talking to these folks 
    again, will you do us all the favor of asking how many of the members
    of the SLT know to write or have actually written a note in any of
    the varios conferences that are available ?
    
    		Do you want my guesstimate.........Zip (0).
    
    		Once again, we are asked to do what our supperiors are not
    willing or can not do.    How can you lead someone, when you don't
    know the first letter of the alphabet ?   How can you measure something
    when you don't even know how its turn on ?   If you do not know, then
    let the employees empower themselves, NO LIP SERVICE, please.
    
    	"The best one for the job is the actual cook, because he/she is
         the ONLY one that knows what is really in the brooth."
    

re .140:

>We also touched on the "bottom-line" issues of payback for EINFs.  Is
>this quantifiable?  I retold the story I heard this week from a DECcie
>in the middle east who does extensive localization work in a
>nonstandard character-set environment.  S/he was faced with a tight
>customer deadline and a DIGITAL bureaucracy that couldn't/wouldn't
>respond in time to save a multimillion$ contract from falling into the
>hands of the competition.  A fast note to another DECcie s/he had met
>via an EINF resulted in a quick, correct answer.  Happy customer,
>N$x10+6 to DIGITAL.  One EINF story.  Others have been recounted
>earlier in this string; s/he's going to send that offline to Ron
>Glover.  If you know more, I'd send 'em along E-posthaste!  
>
>Why not make it easier for Ron Glover's secretary to total up the
>benefits from EINFs by using a subject line like 
>
>Subject:  EINF $UCCE$$ $tory

From:	NAME: Jack Walsh @LQO               
	FUNC: Western States Region Training  
	TEL: (213)416-6555/DTN 520-6555       <WALSH.JACK AT CAPOA1 at DOHENY at TUS>
Date:	05-Aug-1993
Posted-date: 06-Aug-1993
Precedence: 1
Subject: EINF ISSUE                                                             1
To:	GLOVER @ICS@VAXMAIL

Ron,

	Allow me to express my concerns over the possible elimination of 
the Employee Interest Notes File (EINF) by the Senior Leadership Team. 

	I believe the company should keep EINF for the following reasons;

	1. THE BETTERMENT OF THE EMPLOYEE
	   ------------------------------
	   The employees are human beings, not worker ants. We humans are a 
	   complex of knowledge, skills, talents, interests and appreciations.
	   The sum of which is greater than the individual parts. We share 
	   and communicate our thoughts to each other, not only to get the job 
	   done, but also because we care about each other. One of the places 
	   we share our humanity is in EINF.

	   Music, Science, History, Art, Health, Poetry, Sports, Writing,
	   Parenting, Environment, Cooking and Humor are just a few of the 
	   topic areas where we meet to exchange ideas, thoughts and feelings 
           with our fellow employees. Friendships and bonds of trust are 
           established there. We come to know each other as real people with 
	   the same strengths, weaknesses, wants and desires as ourselves;
           not just another worker ant with a badge number and job description.

	   EINF allows for growth of the individual as a better employee, a 
	   better citizen, and a better person. Please keep EINF.

	2. THE BETTERMENT OF THE COMPANY
	   -----------------------------
	   The companies that will be successful in the 21st Century will be 
	   the ones that care about the customer, care about the environment,
	   and care about the employee. All three concerns are needed for 
	   true success. Profits and growth will be the by-products of these
	   concerns. If I may paraphrase for a moment;

	   What does it "profit" a company if it loses its soul?

	   The soul of our great company is in the greatness of its employees.
	   Please keep EINF. Thank you for your attention.
  
Regards,
Jack Walsh
Senior Technical Instructor

SWAM2::Walsh_JA
Jack Walsh @LQO
DTN:520-6555

    re: .140
    
    Excellent!  
    
    A few thoughts ...  It's worth remembering that in political situations
    (and this is a political situation) one should not be fooled by
    assurances.  If it's not in writing, there's no guarantee.  The
    disclaimers at the beginning of the note seemed to reflect awareness of
    this. Just thought it was worth emphasizing.  I bristle when I hear a
    politician say phrases like "I'm committed to," "I believe in," "We
    must," "We need to" and so forth.  There's only an implied commitment in 
    such phrases.
    
    Another thought has to do with a basic management tenet.  It is the
    idea that to make decisions you surround yourself with experts who make
    recommendations that you then use to make decisions.  My impression is
    that this process often does not work well at Digital.  Further, my
    impression is that this method is felt to be reason for NOT doing MBWA
    and is part of the reason why so many mid- to upper-level managers are
    so seriously out of touch.  "I don't need to investigate the issue on
    my own.  I don't have time and must trust the experts."  
    
    IMO, this is part of the reason why a former administrator was able to steal
    millions of dollars from the Digital Credit Union over a period of
    years.  I feel it is also why Digital decision makers tend to have so 
    many meetings and why decision making tends to be so slow and error-prone.
    
    Actually, I advocate consulting experts.  In administrative duties that I 
    perform I do this.  But, I insist on understanding the issues.  If the 
    expert is truly competent, I feel he or she should be able to come down to 
    my level to help me understand the issues well enough to make decisions.  
    
    It really rubs me the wrong way to be told to just accept an idea because 
    it comes from an expert.  I've been told that this is the "engineer" in me. 
    I've heard that engineers don't make good managers and have been told that 
    my way of thinking may be why.  But, I have also found that "experts" OFTEN
    disagree with each other.
    
    Then again, if my purpose is simply to avoid the appearance of making a 
    stupid decision, all I need to do is to prove that I did what an "expert" 
    told me to do.  Or, I can justify it by pointing to a series of long 
    meetings with experts that were inconclusive.  Either way, I would be
    able to make important decisions without concerning myself with whether
    or not the decisions were right.  I wouldn't even have to bother to
    understand the issues, let alone care.
    
    
    Steve

    re.140
    
    Thanks for mentioning my story Dan! :>.  Looks like I got thru using
    nm% mail btw.  
    
    I've attached the memo I sent Ron a couple days ago.  I would like to 
    take this moment to say that my usual contacts for such problems usually 
    are very helpful, especially if our funding is secured!  But that is a 
    different matter.  I have blocked out the sources I regularly deal with,
    for this posting of the original mail, so as not to offend or upset anyone.
    My usual contacts are very good.  They just couldn't help me in a timely 
    enough manner on this occasion.  The person who did come to my aid on the 
    other hand, was TFSO'd a couple months ago.. Strange how things work out 
    sometimes, no?
    
    
From:	ISTWI1::KINACI     "a man a plan a canal panama"  4-AUG-1993 16:48:31.28
To:	NM%ICS::GLOVER
CC:	KINACI                                                         
Subj:	

Dear Ron,

This mail comes to you from the Istanbul office of the Turkish subsidiary
of Digital.  I am writing to you in response to a memo by Win Hindle which
has been creating quite a stir over the net these days.  I am sure you are 
inundated with mail on the subject and could do without any more.  Yet I
wanted to share with you, what I consider, a unique experience I have had 
regarding noting activity in Employee Interest Notes files helping me in
my job.

I am currently employed as the Localization Engineering Group Supervisor
in Turkey.  Our subsidiary here is just barely four years old and is in a 
very new and growing market.  In my job I work on the internationalization 
and localization of Digital products to make them support the Turkish Character
Set.  I work with various engineering groups in ......., ...... and .......,
who support me in my job. 

About eight months ago I was in a very difficult spot.  We had a customer,
a bank, that wanted us to set up a configuration in their main office, then 
providing we were succesful, repeat that configuration in several branch 
offices.  We had one main glitch which was a localization issue.  I was 
getting serious heat from country management since the customer had threatened 
to cancel the order with us and take their business to IBM if we didn't 
make the fix by the deadline he set.  

I wrote to my usual contacts in ......., ....... and .......  I wrote in the 
related technical conferences, and my results were dismal at best.  I was told 
anything from, what we wanted to do couldn't be done, to go read a manual.  
You may or may not know this but, resources in smaller subsidiaries are 
usually quite limited, so some of this advice was impossible to follow.  As 
a last attempt, I posted a note in an employee interest notes file trying 
to locate someone I had met in there, who I knew worked on related products.  
He answered, we exchanged mail, he sent me the solution, which we implemented 
immediately.  

It was a significant enough milestone for our subsidary that we have used 
this solution for other customers as well.  I just inquired as to the dollar 
figures involved in the original sale and was told it was approximately $2M.  
However, in the financial sector of a growing market like ours, such successes 
have ripple effects for this subsidiary.  Meaning this figure is potentially 
much higher.

I am sorry to have gotten so long winded, however, I wanted you to have a
concrete example of how employee interest note files help some of us do
our work as well.  I have many more such examples, but I realize I can't list
them all here.  For those of us who are in the newer and growing subsidiaries
Notes files of all kinds are a very valuable asset.  Many times people we
meet electronically, in a casual medium, turn out to be more helpful in 
leading us in the right direction, when we are desperately trying to locate
the correct source in getting answers to our work related questions.

In my opinion, shutting down employee interest notes files will have a much
bigger cost to Digital, than any savings that could be realized as a result
of taking such action.  I am sorry to see that it is even being discussed..

If you would like any further details or any additional information, I would
be glad to help.

Sincerely,

Suzan Kinaci
Local Engineering Group Supervisor

    
    Is it true that BP will be announcing a VP of Cyberspace?  :-)
    
    cbc

    
    Re .146
    
    Why were you not answered through the "official" International Systems
    Engineering channels - the I18N::hotline and I18N notesfile?
    
    I don't know how long this was ago, but in the recent past we had at
    least one char-set expert who spoke Turkish, plus two other senior
    engineers charged with solving char-set problems.
    
    It makes a good argument for "unofficial" notesfiles if the "official"
    ones fail to help you.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin      
    

    

    Re: .148:
    
       The problem is that even work-related notes files are rarely
    "official".  Basically if you post a note in most conferences, it's up
    to anyone else's good graces to respond at all.  I believe that there
    are a few conferences which are set up as "official", but I can't name
    any offhand.
    
    					-mjg

    Re .148, Colin,
    
    I just tried opening I18N::HOTLINE and got "file not found".
    
    And I didn't think the I18N notesfile was connected to International
    Systems Engineering. And it's not an "official" channel I think. Nor is 
    the Worldwide conference.
    
    Neil
    

    
    I18N::hotline is (or was) an e-mail address - .148 doesn't say that it
    is a notesfile.  The worldwide, localization, and other i18n notesfiles
    did have a designated responsible individual (DRI for brevity) assigned
    to take care of whatever business-related enquiries came into those
    notesfiles. Many of the answers in Worldwide are from ISE engineers in
    their DRI role.   All these information resources are documented in the
    corporate I18N engineering guides and publicised in VTX.
    
    ISE's intent was to cover different avenues of enquiry and provide a
    fast response to i18n enquiries.  Mail to I18N::hotline is (or was)
    assigned a log number and was supposed to be acknowledged within 24
    hours (can't guarantee faster as it is an international service).
    responses should turn around in 2 days.  Answers are (or were) recorded
    in a database with keywords and key topics so that answer could be
    found. In some cases the answer was simply a pointer to a WORLDWIDE
    note.   The system was designed to make us more effective by having
    on-line solutions, and not be obliged to solve the same problems over
    and over. 

    ISE may have hijacked WORLDWIDE but it's not really what you could
    classify as 'employee interest'.  I'm just curious as to why, with all
    this expensive, i18N engineering network in place, people have to get
    i18n answers through employee interest notesfiles.
    
  regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

Although  enough has been said about the merits of the EINF,
I would like to add my voice/vote for the continuation of
EINF and some SUGGESTED ALTERNATIVES:


   Additional merits:

   It is scientifically proven that people learn more
   efficiently if there is interest on the subject or fun.
   That is why children learn computers better than their
   parents, while playing games.  My six and seven year old
   girls can navigate through MS-Windows with no problem,
   where as my wife is still struggling to learn how to
   turn on the computer, get in to MS-Word and type a
   letter (She does not like computer games).

   When I first came in this company I did not know
   anything about VMS or  VAX-notes.  When talking to
   somebody about skiing, I was told that there is this
   thing called VAX-notes that has an interest group on
   skiing.  I learned how to use VAX-notes in one evening!!
   The rest is history, I have used  and still use and
   always promote VAX-notes on any chance I can.  I am the
   moderator of MCAD  notes, I have created notes files for
   SI programs as I have created files for other projects
   to promote the sharing of information.

   

   Counter Points to Arguments:

    On loss of productivity:
    Many people I know do not use VAX-notes interactively,
     rather they use batch extractors ( like AVN) and
     download the notes at night when the networks are at
     least utilized.

    Productivity can be lost by loooong coffee breaks, by
     useless meetings where no agenda is present and no
     decision is made, by doing things five times over than
     doing things right the first time.

    Productivity suffers from lack of administrative tools
     to help employees being effective  (such as financial
     tracking, SBS, Expense reporting, to name a few).

    Rather that micro managing every move of every employee
     (like counting how many key strokes we type on the
     keyboard) it would be more effective if we give
     employees clear realistic goals and monitor the
     achievement of their goals.

   On Digital's Cost:
    VAX-notes is as necessary as phone, and e-mail.  As it
     is impractical and not smart to monitor and restrict
     every employee not to use any of those mediums for
     private use, so it is impractical and not smart to
     restrict VAX-notes for ONLY business use.  I do not
     advocate to use company's time and resources for
     private use.  I would like to meet one person that has
     NEVER made a private phone call from a Digital phone
     (like calling home) and has NEVER send a personal e-
     mail.

    Carl Savage advocates informal networks through out the
     enterprise in his book "Fifth Generation Management",
     John Nesbit  in his book "Megatrends" advocates people's
     informal networks as the means to conduct business in
     the future.

   SUGGESTIONS:
    Train Senior Leadership Team on VAX-notes, if not already
     done so. They could benefit from the sharing capabilities 
     and they could appreciate more what the rest of the employees
     find so interesting.

    Allow access of use of "non-business" notes-files only
     during off business hours. I am sure with all the
     technical talent this company has we can find somebody
     who can make the access of those note-files only during
     off-business hours possible.  All you have to do put a
     note in a note file !!!

Keep the EINF note-files alive.  Let's be EFFECTIVE (do the
right things right) and not EFFICIENT (do things right).

...and finally, I read in...where else...a notes file...

If you are in a shipwreck, you might cling to a floating
piano-top as a fortuitous life preserver.  But this is not to
say that the best way to design a life preserver is in the 
form of a piano-top.  I think we are clinging to a great many
piano-tops in accepting yesterday's solutions
				Buckminster Fuller

George Spatoulas
Senior Consultant

    >ISE may have hijacked WORLDWIDE but it's not really what you could
    >classify as 'employee interest'.  I'm just curious as to why, with all
    >this expensive, i18N engineering network in place, people have to get
    >i18n answers through employee interest notesfiles.
    
    Because, just maybe, they didn't know this organization existed, or
    that is was so easily accessible.  Now, through the medium of an
    employee-interest notes conference, many people (including me) know the
    answer.  As a matter of fact, I can now refer a colleague who has an
    I18n question in the right direction.

    Re .-1,
    
    >...in the right direction
    
    Which is, where, exactly? I looked in VTX and had my usual VTX
    experience (got lost, couldn't find it). Couldn't find a notes
    conference called I18N in easynotes.lis or in easynet_conferences
    either.
    
    I agree that asking for help in a place like this is much more
    efficient than trying to track this down yourself. This info is not
    easy to find. In fact I thought ISE no longer existed. 
        
    NOTED::WORLDWIDE is like many conferences--neither employee interest,
    nor "official" in the sense that it's part of anybody's job to answer
    queries there. It so happens you'll probably get an answer there, but
    due to good will and common interest I think, not because it's part of
    any official I18N engineering channel.
    
    That computer company bigwigs would even consider trying to distinguish
    between work-related and non-work-related information moving around the
    net is so out of touch it's frightening. Talk about missing the point!
    
    Neil

>                    <<< Note 2605.152 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>
>                              -< Try it this way >-
>    
>    I18N::hotline is (or was) an e-mail address - .148 doesn't say that it
>    is a notesfile.

re .100
..    Another thought. If a person gets the required work done, what is the
..    harm of noting in work related conferences anytime during the day.
    
  
    Right.   We should all just do our 'required' work and the go play in 
    NOTES....We'll have this company turned around in no time.
    
    
    
    
    
    It's time that we all stop complaining about what we should get out of
    this company and start spending ALL your time trying to make this
    company successful...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    sorry but the WHINING level these days is unbearable.
    
    
    
    
    steve  

	Re. .57

>                    <<< Note 2605.57 by ELMAGO::JMORALES >>>
>                       -< History will repeat itself. >-
>
>    
>    	It has been proven that the comunist leaders got so out of touch
>    with the realities of their respective countries that the people in
>    those countries decided it was time for a change due to the fact that
>    their supposed leaders were discussing trivial issues and not the
>    cruel realities that troubled their contries.
    
>    	Are we seeing the same here in America about 'Corporate America'.
    
>    	Lets see:
    
>    	IBM, GM, Ford, DEC, GE, Wang, etc.
    
>    		Their 'leaders' were entrenched discussing trivial issues
>    	while all of they decayed.



	Take Ford off of your list. Ford Motor Company, yes during the 
	60's and 70's was the way that you described. But, during 
	1979 and 80, they came very close to going under, they had lost
	almost a total of 3 billion dollars. Back then that was a lot of 
	money, the only thing at that time keeping Ford a float was their
	Aerospace  and European Automotive divisions.

	Ford had at that time - had terrible products (as all of the other 
	US manufacturers had also). I was a Ford Employee during that period,
	and believe me, even with the Ford discounts, I wouldn't buy a 
	Ford Vehicle.

	But when they came close to going under, they woke up! 
	
	Ford VPs decided it was time they go out and visit
	the plants, get their workers opinions/ideas (listen to their people).
	They began to value their employees! All of them! 
	
	 Yes, they had to make
	some hard decisions about cutbacks, I believe back then Ford cut
	approx. 20 to 30 percent of their work force. But, they did it
	quickly! There was a period of about two to three weeks, were 
	moral was very low, but once it was over, IT WAS OVER! The Company
	got back on track.

	Ford today believes in TQM, employee involvement, empowerment
	 and TEAMwork. They're investing in the future. In 79 and
	80 they were faced with going under (same situation as Chrysler 
	back then)!

	They believed (back then) that they'd never have greater than
	17% market share. So, they right sized to be profitable at 17%.

	Ford Management , hired a company to conducted surveys, 
	where they would bring
	in competitors vehicles and their own products. The Ford Executives
	(Caldwell, Polling and Peterson) all would sit quitely in the 
	back, while people (consumers) were brought in, and asked "what
	they thought of these companies and their products". 

	Ford Management was in shock
	to hear "that people" thought their products were lousy. Otherwise
	"at that time" they weren't in touch with reality. They then 
	began the process of turning the company around. The series of
	steps included things, like taking risks "the Taurus program 
	was a major risk for Ford Motor Company". If the Taurus had failed,
	their may have not been a Ford Motor Company today!
 

	Ford, before the turnaround, would never take risks.
	They typically would follow suit with the Bigger Kid on the Block
	(General Motors), what GM did they would usually feel safe in 
	following their lead! 

FYI ******

	Did you know that Ford (NOT GM) was the 
	first Automotive Company to begin using Electronic Engine Controls
	in their vehicles. They were so far ahead of GM, that they actually
	had a custom chip (jointly developed with Intel) designed specifically
	for engine controls (Intel 8061). But, did they announce it to the
	public! No, not the old Ford, they waited until GM announced that
	they were using computers for engine controls, then guess what,
	Ford announced they were too! GMs original system was an off the shelf 
	Motorola 6800 chip, with lots of discrete components for A/D and
	DIO (a mess)! GM called theirs the C3 and C2 computer, know what
	the number after the C stood for? 3 board or 2 board system.
	That was bad! Fords implentation was a single board with very
	few discrete components (higher reliability)! GM had tons of 
	warranty claims and costs were very high to replace their systems.

END FYI ******	

	During the 80's boom years for the Automotive companies, Ford made
	tremendous profits. There were even times that Ford made more
	money than GM on sales of fewer vehicles! They currently hold
	24% of the market. I'm seeing Ford invest in new product development,

	For example,  Ford will introduce
	a new engine this fall, then another new engine 6 months after that,
	then another new engine approx. 6 to 12 months after that! I remember
	when (the old Ford) was going to get out of the engine design and
	manufacturing business. The original plan back in 79/80 was to 
	design one last engine (current V6 in Aerostar Van), then they
	were planning on purchasing engines from the Japanese or other 
	suppliers!

	Point is, Ford was faced with going under, they made some hard
	decisions about quality and product philosophy, took some risks, 
	empowered their people to make decisions, Ford management
	WOKE UP! Saw reality about their stinking products (back in 79/80) 
	and did something about it. Did their layoffs, quickly I might add,
	and got back to the business of staying in business!

	Ford today is in excellant shape! They have new products, and I 
	believe they are actually competing against the industry benchmark
	(Japanese Automotive companies)! Sure they still make mistakes
	and there are still problems.

	But don't lump Ford in with American companies that have become lax.
	
	Their management had a vision, that vision become Fords Corporate
	vision! They did the right thing!

	And guess what, they believe in employee communications/sharing
	of ideas! If they had closed the door on employee communications
	and had they not shown respect for their workers, I don't know
	if Ford would be doing as well today or not! They've benefitted
	greatly from employee involvement and their recognition that their
	people are their greatest assets!


	RC

	- Sorry for rambling on, not all American companies are laying 
	flat on their backs. 

	

Note 2605.83  by DECWET::PENNEY
    
    >>-< This is a business, not a family! >-
    
    
    you are dead wrong on this. this is a business AND a family. i have met
    more interesting and HELPFULL (business and personnal) people in notes
    than anywhere else in this comany.
    
    >When I saw the survey, I was a bit shocked at where the network cycles
    
    the "network cycles" used by this is so trivial it's laughable.
    
    gene haag, network consultant

    Rick-
         Thanks for you insightful assessment of where FoMoCo has come
    from and where it now is. There's much we as a company can glean from
    turnabouts such as this. I love it. Have you any thoughts on the story
    about that patent infringement suit? You know,....the intermittent
    windshield wiper? Maybe there's a lesson in that as well!
                
                                                         -RAM-

    .148
    
    Colin,
    
    Thank you for your informative note... 
    
    >Why were you not answered through the "official" International Systems
    >Engineering channels - the I18N::hotline and I18N notesfile?
    
    to be perfectly honest, I don't remember all the details from back
    then.  I've never used the I18n::hotline because I've never known about
    it.  This is the first time I hear of it.  I use my I18n contacts for
    the most part because I get the most timely response from them.
                                                 
    I am sure the information is out there somewhere everytime.  But when
    you are so much under the gun for lack of time on a regular basis, I 
    don't have the luxury of going out on a search mission.  I have to find
    the quickest and surest way there.
    
    >I don't know how long this was ago, but in the recent past we had at
    >least one char-set expert who spoke Turkish, plus two other senior
    >engineers charged with solving char-set problems.
    
    hmmmmm... where do you work?  what do you do?  I've never heard of such
    a person in all my dealings.  Are we circulating in totally seperate
    circles that our fields of interest have never over lapped??
    
    Not to go on with this rathole any further but... I have a colleague in
    the very recently opened Cyprus office, who has contacted me for information
    several times in the past.  A few months ago we were given a list of 
    products to be internationalized and asked to prioritize them according
    to our respective markets.  When the list was compiled, we got our
    feedback as to what countries needed which products.  I noticed Cyprus
    was not on there.  I contacted my colleague who told me he had not
    received any such list, so I forwarded my mail to him as well as
    informing my ISE contacts of this oversight.  
    
    Can you see how some of us in the newer subsidiaries can fall out of the 
    loop??  IMHO ISE needs to take an active part in establishing contacts in
    the newly opened subsidiaries.  Many times the work load is
    overwhelming and the number of personnel to do the work is very
    limited.  I am responsible for the I18n/l10n of all relevant Digital
    products.  This means it is virtually impossible for me to be an expert
    on each and every single one of them.  Mostly, I have to project manage
    the process.  It is important to guide folks to the proper channels from
    the start.  We know the answers are out there but many times have no idea 
    where to start looking in this sea of information and people.
      
    So sometimes we have to use whatever means necessary to reach the desired 
    outcome..  For me, in this particular instance, it was an employee 
    interest notes file, or a valuing differences file.. whatever type of file 
    SOAPBOX is considered to be these days.  
    
    Suz                                        

    -1
    
    Thanks for the reply.  Now that I know the background, I think you
    should revise your memo to Ron Glover to point out that the "official'
    Digital channels failed you miserably.  In fact, the scenario you
    describe is doubly depressing, because it reflects exactly the same
    problems as other new subsidiaries were having six or seven years ago.
    
    Neil, as you probably guessed, I was playing devils' advocate! The way
    I see this is that Digital spent a lot of money setting up a system
    that failed, whereas "soapbox" came through with an answer that solved
    a business problem.  
    
    (And the Turkish-speaking engineer who also spoke four other languages
    not including C, UNIX VMS DCL and MS-DOS, was a PhD in computational
    Linguistics was TFSO'ed along with most of ISE Reading UK.  He is now
    in Germany working for a competitor.) 
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

From:	HAMCL3::SCHARNBERG   "SWAS Hamburg, Solution Center NOGY"  9-AUG-1993 15:30:07.38
To:	NM%ICS::GLOVER
CC:	SCHARNBERG
Subj:	Employee interest notesfiles


Dear Ron,

I have heard that the SLT is considering closing down all employee interest
notesfiles (EINF), and that it is your task to evaluate the impact on employee
morale.

As far as my morale is concerned, I can only ask you not to do it. One can
benefit from EINF for various reasons, which to my knowledge have already
been explained to you by other employees. 

I would like to draw your attention to another aspect: The image of Digital
at the Universities. 

I am a student of Computer Science at the University of Hamburg. When I 
started working for Digital in 1989, I considered it a great achievement of
mine, because at the University, Digital was seen as a very special company. 
An innovative hothouse. A company of individuals, not numbers. A vibrant, 
cheerful and unconventional company. Simply a great place to work at.

Over the years I had to give several lectures at the University.  My
management allowed me to make use of Digital owned equipment and the EINFs
have been a great resource of knowledge and support. Whenever I would give a
lecture, I never  missed the chance to point out how much Digital Equipment
had supported me and how much the company cared for their employees'
interests and development. I also wrote a paper on Electronical Conferences,
which was based on my VAXnotes experience. It gained a lot of interest and
left Digital in an excellent light in the  views of the audience, professors
included. They have seen VAXnotes as a major contributor to the Digital way
of working.
 
I believe that the universities' image of Digital is a good indicator of our 
company's long term success, as the universities are a pool of future staff 
and customers as well. 

If EINF were shut down, this would be another step in the direction of making 
Digital just another computer company.

Best regards,

    Heiko Scharnberg
    Student Contractor, DTAS & VERA Competence Center, SWAS Hamburg

    Two timely articles in the August 16th issue of Business Week.
    
    One, on Lotus, said Notes largely accounted for the doubling of their
    stock price from 18 to a recent 36 [@$700m market value].  There was no
    mention as to the origin of the product, but it did discuss Lotus'
    leadership role in groupware and cites examples of corporate user
    successes with Notes.
    
    The second, on corporate fitness centers, talked about how corporations
    are saving on insurance premiums by opening centers and getting their
    employees to exercise.
    
    BW seems to need a letter informing them about Digital's attitude
    on wasteful Notes and fitness centers.  KB   

    On my last job here at Digital I worked as a consultant to GM. Several
    times issues came up that needed quick answers, and often I used notes
    to get those answers. The network of notes files amazed the EDS/GM
    folks, and it was obvious to me that this is a key competitive tool
    that we often take for granted. Not only the notes themselves, but the
    fact that we use this technology to run our business.
    
    We could argue about whether EINF are part of this value chain, but
    we've read anough examples in this stream to hopefully show they are
    needed. Some of the questions we had at GM were about getting Macs set
    up - is the Macintosh notes file a "work" file, or an EINF? Sure has
    helped me in my work, as well as personal use.
    
    Thorgan

    Most of the previous replies imply that DEC is interested in continuing
    to operate successfully in much the same form we have come to know.
    That being the case, the proposal to deep six Notes makes no sense. Let
    me suggest that this may not be the case. A likely scenerio for a
    business in Digital's position is for the company to be broken up 
    into separate units, the profitable ones then sold, and the 
    unprofitable ones then dismantled for subsequent asset disposal.
    This is a reasonable business decision under certain conditions: loss
    of profitability, decreased competitive position, change in world
    economic environment, uncontrollable costs, management out of touch
    with both employees and the industry. DEC's reorganization into
    semi-autonomous business units is a textbook first step in such a
    scenerio. Rapid, easy communications among employees makes this
    effrt much more difficult, as the smooth disolution of a company
    relies largely upon employee ignorance.
    
    Eastern Airlines looked a lot like DEC several years ago. Frank Lorenzo
    was brought in to "get the airline back on its feet." One of his first
    accomplishments was to isolate employees. In the following
    several years, Eastern was broken up and its assets sold off. 100,000
    people lost their jobs. Mr, Lorenzo was paid $32,000,000 for his part.
    
    The proposed end of Notes is a textbook case of a business
    systematically dismantling all internal communications, leaving just
    the official, strictly hierarchical, rigidly controlled from the top
    company line. Two years ago there were over 100 internal publications,
    not to mention Notes and other electronic communications.
    The argument could be made that many were redundant and others
    contained information what was not always current. But they served to
    keep employees informed about what was happening within DEC. Now,
    internal publications have all but disappeared, and Notes is being
    threatened with execution. Employees are largely in the dark about those
    issues effecting them as people and those issues effecting the company.
    A review of case literature shows that this is what commonly happens
    before a business is sold or dissolved. I am not suggesting that such a
    causal relationship is inviolate; I am just stating the facts.
    
    I am unaware of a single case in which strangling employee
    communications has ever lead to either improved company results or
    improved employee morale. If any other noter can correct me, please do.
    
    If Notes does indeed cost two dollars per employee per year (please
    provide correction if this is not the case), then there is simply no
    justification for shutting it down.
    
    
    ken
    
    (written Sunday, on my own time, and posted Monday morning)
    
                                  

    
    Re: shutting down EINFs based on "productivity" arguments.
    
    Two points:
    
      1. Professional economists have struggled for at least
         2 decades to figure out a way to measure white collar
         productivity (how do you measure the "output" of a
         software engineer -- lines of code/day or useful innovative
         products?  How about a tax lawyer?  Number of client returns
         processed, revenue brought into his/her firm, dollars saved
         his/her clients?)  There are many arguments that wc/professional
         productivity grew at an abysmal rate throughout the
         1970s and 1980s.
    
      2. The argument currently being made in the business press is that
         information systems are finally beginning to yield the 
         promised productivity gains.  This is due partly to the colossal 
         numbers of layoffs in Fortune 500 companies (and process re-
         engineering so that the same work can be done by fewer people.). 
         Re-engineering (if you believe its evangelists), depends very
         heavily on the use of information systems for people to 
         communicate and process data, and to increase the speed at which
         they analyze and report information.
    
    If even half the stories relative to EINFs related herein are true,
    and if the cost is really averaging 2$/person/year, then there is
    absolutely no justification for shutting them down.  Can you imagine
    an interview with a writer from [insert your favorite business magazine
    here]:
    
    Reporter: "So, you have re-organized your company and have embraced
    process re-engineering to increase output per worker".
    
    Digital Manager:  "That's right.  We've worked very hard not
    only to eliminate layers in our hierarchy, but to better put to
    use the networked information solutions we offer to customers to
    increase our own productivity. Also, we have been very aggressive
    with our cost management."
    
    Reporter: "Yes, we can see from your headcount numbers that you are
    very serious about cost containment. What other types of fixed costs 
    are you attacking?"
    
    Digital Sr. Manager: "Well, certainly, we've eliminated and
    consolidated facilities; further, we've cost-shifted some of our
    high medical costs.  And recently, of course, we've eliminated our
    employee interest notes files".
    
    Reporter: "Employee interest notes files?  What are they?"
    
    Digital Sr. Manager: "Well, they are a holdover from the Digital old
    days, where this was more of a chaotic, flat, matrixed organization.
    The EINF's let employees communicate with each other about a variety
    of subjects not directly related to their work.  We felt that the
    2$/person/year costs, and the 'high network cycles' required to
    manage the files, not to mention the lost productivity of employees
    spending too much time communicating with each other, were barriers
    to our continued drive to, um, increase productivity, and uh, use
    our information systems to make sure we were taking advantage of
    all the benefits of, uh, process re-engineering, and to help our
    employees use, ah, informal channels to increase their productivity."
    
    Glenn
                              
    

    Yesterday on NPR there was a discussion with a writer of how he uses
    the incredible power of the virtual community through public bulletin
    boards and conferences (the WELL?) to enhance both his professional AND
    personal life.  He SPECIFICALLY cited the usefullness of "conferences"
    such as "PARENTING" as examples of how effective this medium was.  I
    was riding my bike at the time so I didn't retain a lot of detail, but
    I remember being surprised that as the rest of the world discovers the
    power of this capability Digital attempts to kill it off internally.
    
    I also admit to being astonished that anyone's time would need to be
    spent to "assess the effect on employee morale".  Even the most
    out-of-touch manager should be able to answer that question INSTANTLY. 
    If morale already sucks, partially due to the loss of so many benefits
    in the past, and you take away another "benefit" what will this do to
    morale?  I CANNOT believe the question even needed to be asked.

Re:    <<< Note 2605.168 by NCBOOT::PEREZ "Trust, but ALWAYS verify!" >>>

>    I also admit to being astonished that anyone's time would need to be
>    spent to "assess the effect on employee morale".  Even the most
>    out-of-touch manager should be able to answer that question INSTANTLY. 
>    If morale already sucks, partially due to the loss of so many benefits
>    in the past, and you take away another "benefit" what will this do to
>    morale?  I CANNOT believe the question even needed to be asked.

I bet the intent is to somehow quantify the extent of the effect.  I agree that 
is should be clear that it would go down, but by how much?  I don't know, and I
wouldn't have a clue how to predict the amount.  Then again, I'm not sure 
*anyone* really needs to predict the amount...  :-(

-  David

    To be fair, I think that the folks making the decision are weighing all
    things against survival of the company.  So, they are asking questions
    like, "Will this cause TOO MUCH drop in morale if we ..."  There is an
    ambiguous link between morale and productivity because morale may be 
    harder to measure than pay, medical benefits and such.  We can scream
    all we want about how morale needs to be addressed, but without
    numbers it doesn't stack well against the issues that can be carefully
    measured.
    
    I grant, of course, that there may be evidence of low morale.  It's just
    that it's hard to put a number on it so that it can fit into a decision.
    
    Steve

    Actually, morale can be measured.  There are a number of instruments
    that do so quite effectively.  The link between morale and productivity
    and profitability has also been made.

    re: 2605.170                          

    I deny the characterization of the discussion of the prohibition of
    employee interest conferences as a "scream".  On the other hand, the
    entire issue has been re-raised by the advocates of their elimination
    in a rather devious and less than candid way.

    The quantitative analysis argument is a red herring.  There is no
    reliable way of measuring the "resources" used by Notes.  One might as
    well measure the number of breaths taken by employees when they are not
    on a "work task".  What can be measured, like the number of notes for
    example needs to be compared to something that clearly says "that's too
    much, there ought to be less of that."

    If this alleged-to-be-taking-place review is in fact sincere, there
    ought to be a little communication and candor about, like for one thing
    determining whether the problem is "resources", "productivity", or
    something else, like the symbolism of idle employees having alternative
    means of filling their idle time.

    Reduced to absurdity, this is a global network version of "look busy,
    the boss is coming by."

    Anybody who tried to copy Xrn last week using the directions in .38
    should try again now -- the logical names on UFP seem to be back in
    order.  
    
    
    				-- edp

Basingstoke    decuk     41.6        decuk.uvo.dec.com

Just thought I'd confirm that bit's still correct... 

    
    Re: Lotus NOTES 
    
      Lotus has been a VAX shop for years and a user of VAXnotes...
    My friends brother is a system manager there and told me this some
    years ago.   I know exactly where they got the concept and one would
    have to guess the name.
    
    Jon

R:E .175

	Not to mention the "inventor" of Notes in Digital.

							mike

re: .174 & .175

Well "he" got the idea before coming to Digital (and leaving to IRIS) by
having written Notes for the PLATO system back at the University of
Illinois in the mid 1970's.

-tl

           <<< MR4SRV::NOTES$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MARKETING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< MARKETING >-
================================================================================
Note 12.6                     Interactive Brochures                       6 of 6
NRSTA2::KALIKOW "Supplely Chained"                   21 lines  10-AUG-1993 20:56
        -< Though it's highly ironic to mention THIS brochure HERE... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ... in DECnotes, I must activate the anti-irony interlock and state
    that on this very DECpc325p laptop upon which I am noting this evening
    from my easy chair, I am also running a truly outstanding animated
    brochure for Lotus NOTES, written in "The Creative Bridge Animation
    Tools" and produced by Animated Systems & Design of Palo Alto CA.  
    
    I picked up this MS-Windows compatible demo disk for free at the Lotus
    booth of last week's MacWorld-Boston.  They've just announced a Mac
    client for Lotus Notes; U*IX server (and perhaps client?) are to be
    announced soon.  
    
    Judging from the extensive product demo I saw, this brochure does an
    excellent job of recreating the look & feel & functionality of this
    product.  
    
    Incidentally, Lotus Notes will probably save Lotus as it bursts even
    more strongly upon the groupware business.  And Yes, I know the story
    about Lotus Notes vs. DECnotes.
    
    Have you read HUMANE::DIGITAL 2605.*?
    

	re: Lotus Notes

	having helped design Lotus' worldwide Lotus Notes network
	(based on DECnet and TCP/IP), I can safely say that although Lotus
	remains very much a "VAX shop" (actually more correctly
	stated as a VMS shop), "DECnotes" (as well as VAXmail)
	are now dead there....VMS lives on at Lotus primarily to run their
	corporate back-office applications (many of them based on Sybase).....

	I can also confirm what was said (seemingly some time ago)
	about Lotus going through the same Information Revolution
	that Digital enabled with DEC/VAXnotes....to the degree that
	Lotus Notes is a (much) more capable product than its
	Digital counterpart/predecessor, the revolution is that
	much more pronounced/visible to senior management....in fact
	Lotus' IS group actually designed an extremely functional
	EIS system based on Lotus Notes, which basically assures that
	all senior management at Lotus will participate in their
	Notes network.....

	too bad we never did something like that here...

	_kelley

In an interview with the CIO at Lotus more than 5 years ago he told me that
*he* used Notes daily and considered it a productivity tool for his people. 
He lamented missing certain features that I've found to be part and parcel
of LotusNotes. 

    Digital for historical reasons not related to the marketplace makes
    large and artificial distinctions between

    Mail (one to one or a few)
    Videotex (one to many)
    Group Conferencing (few to few, many to many)
    Unstructured Text and near-text archives

    The distinction is false and tragically the company has chosen to
    ponder some sort of managerial decree to fix in an unspecified way some
    unspecified problem without understanding that the pattern of the usage
    on the EASYNET in 1983 really forecast that usage pattern of larger
    networks in 1993.  This can work to Digital's advantage.
    
    The real challenge to management is how to apply the infrastructure of
    the compnany and the creativity of the employees to develop
    applications or at least the middleware for applications that will be
    useful in 2003.
    
    The company that can achieve an effective integration of the four items
    above as a product family will likely be larger than Digital is.

    A former igit that I was talking to yesterday, pointed out that one of
    DEC's key strengths to him as a consultant, is it's collective
    intelligence. He knows that he can ask a question of someone at DEC,
    and if that person is astute enough, they can trace through a few notes
    conferences, ask a question or two, and have the personal that
    developed the code, or who holds the patent, or whatever giving them,
    the real low-down on the problem at hand. As an enabling technology to
    this collective intelligence, it is worth it's weight in gold.
    
    Cut of the personally useful aspect of the tools, and people won't
    bother using it...
    
    q
    

    Dear Beancounters:
    
    Please take the $2.00/year for my Easynet NWR notes usage fee, plus
    another $4.00/year for figuring out how much it costs - as a deduction
    from my weekly paycheck.  It's worth it to me.
    
    bill :-%

    re .-1 ditto for me. if the beancounters wants 6 or 8 or 10 bucks from
    my paycheck for FY94's contribution for notes usage on Easynet - take
    it. my guess is you'll spend LOTS more collecting and adminstrating it
    then you'll ever save.

Re: .184:

   That's the catch, if they took us up on the offer to pay for notes access
out of our paychecks, the $2/yr base cost would result in a $50/wk deduction.
:-)

   (The other catch is that a large percentage of the work force doesn't
have access to the EASYnet/VAXnotes at all.  To be fair, the cost is probably
something more like $10/active noter/year.)

   Of the $2 estimated figure, what percentage could be saved by shutting down
only non-work-related conferences, leaving work-related ones up?  (Has this
been asked before?  It's been going through my mind and I know I've raised it
with co-workers.)

					-mjg

    One of the questions asked of BP in his DVN was concerning 'diversity'
    i.e. valuing differences, accommodating and working with the rich and
    varied diversity of nationalities and cultures which make up this
    Global company. BP went to great lengths to expound his feelings and
    commitment to diversity and to describe the programmes he has put in
    place to ensure the priority of diversity within Digital.
    
    However, the only exposure and interaction the vast majority of Digital
    employees have to the diverse and globally distributed cultures is via
    the Non-Work related conferences. Granted, there are the technical
    conferences, but at the end of the day 'techno-speak' is the same
    whatever your nationality and culture, and the true variations in
    diversity does not come through in a technical conference. IT IS ONLY
    in the non-work related conferences that Digital employees are exposed
    to and can interact with and can appreciate the multitude of regional,   
    national and cultural characteristics that make up this company.
    
    I find it ironic that on the one hand expensive, localised diversity
    programmes (with limited exposure to Global employees) are being put in
    place, yet on the other hand there are plans to close down the one
    inexpensive, established medium that has extensive Global exposure and
    does more for promoting diversity than any other scheme yet devised.
    
    Angus

    
    I feel it's grossly near-sighted to think that closing down
    Employee-Interest Notesfiles will improve the bottom line of the
    company.  It would be akin to amputating an arm to cure a hangnail!
    
    Having moderated, at one time, one of the most high-traffic conferences
    within Digital, I will be the first to say there is still flagrant
    misuse of the Notesfiles.  But I will also say that those cases are the
    responsibility of Personnel and Management to deal with.  It comes down
    to the bottom line:  Is an employee performing their job to the best of
    their abilities, or are they shirking their responsibilities?
    
    Almost every Digital employee I know considers VAXNotes to be a Benefit
    Digital provides to their employees.  A Benefit that is considered in
    the career-decision process.  A very high percentage of the employees
    you'll find participating in Notes Conferences are the same employees
    that are working their butts off -- getting 1s and 2s on their
    performance appraisals.  These same people are the ones Digital will
    sorely miss if they withdraw this Benefit.
    
    A KEY talent Digital need to foster in their employees is a strong 
    ability to network with each other and communicate effectively.  In 
    addition, Digital needs for the morale and the mental well-being of 
    their employees to be high.   Employee interest files provide these.  
    
    Employee Interest files:
    
    -provide a network of diverse resources in the company to find
     technical support
    
    -provide emotional support for employees 
    
    -provide brief diversions from the stress of day-to-day work
    
    -build communication skills
    
    -build management skills (by being a moderator)
    
    Frankly, if Digital decides to close Employee-Interest notesfiles. 
    They will lose valuable employees, decrease morale even further, and
    lose a valuable tool for building their employee's skill set.
    
    Digital used to be one of the Top 100 companies to work for.  I
    continue to wonder when Digital management will learn that in order to 
    be a successful company, you have to foster successful employees.
    
    
    Kathy Gallup
    Senior Software Engineer
    Knowledge Based Solutions and Services Group

Why doesn't notes go out with a timer.  Basically, personal interest notesfiles
would have a tag which the notes software on the users system would recognize
as "employee interest" as opposed to 'work related", and not allow access
to "ei" notesfiles from let's say 8:30 to 4:30  (adjusted for shift schedule
in various places). 

That means that your own system would cut you off rather that shutting down
usage to people in other time zones.

 

>Why doesn't notes go out with a timer.

	Because the issue should what you accomplish, not your work style.
	I would surmise that all employees with access to notes to not work
	on an assembly line, where the nature of the job dictates a constant
	pattern of work for a set time period. People have different work
	styles, and different people work at maximum efficiency in different
	ways.

	Some people like to work at full steam, including working through
	lunch, for some amount of time. Others need to take breaks during
	the day -- some people go out for a cigarrette, some people go get a
	cup of coffee, others read/write notes, still others just find
	somebody to talk to or go for a jog. It should not be the business
	of the senior management of this company to micro-manage the way
	people do their jobs.

	What matters is results. If I'm not doing a good job then I expect
	my manage to know it and to tell me so. But if I'm producing, then
	the way I get my job done should be of no concern to people who are
	about 6 levels up the food chain and have no idea what I really do
	for a living, let alone the best way for me to do it.

	Roy

During those break times, you could read a few pages from a book that
you provide, or the editorial page of the newspaper.  You don't NEED to
read employee interest notes.   

And on certain high volume notes this would clear up time on the network.
By the way, I'm not advocating eliminating notes altogether during the
day.  Just providing a non-destructive alternative to Notes/NoNotes...

And on the point that senior mgmt shouldn't be micromanaging your work
style, well then we should be able to provide all our own office furniture
with that thinking.  The walls around your offices are micromanaged.
It is their job to determine what is productive and what is not.  I see
no conflict.

    You know, I just thought of another reason for not eliminating EINFs. 
    It is that by having such files Digital employees become more efficient
    with their spare time.  This should be just as important to Digital as
    the other non-work benefits that Digital contributes to.  For example,
    why does Digital offer medical while you are off the job as well as on? 
    It's so that you can be more effective when you come to work. 
    
    I am a great user of notes, work-related and non-work-related.  I use
    it every day.  It helps me keep informed and to work smart.  It helps
    me to manage my career.  I typically still work for Digital when I go
    home.  It's not uncommon for me to log in late at night or work
    weekends.  I seldom work less than 40 hours for Digital.  But, I do
    recognize the need for recreation and such.  EINF help me use my time
    wisely.
    
    For example, I like computer music.  COMMUSIC helps me to be
    knowledgeable in this domain.  I have purchased gear as a result of
    knowldege I got there.  I have published music with the help of friends
    I met there.  As it happens, some of my original music has even been
    used for Digital in a training video, at no cost to Digital of course.
    
    For another, the REAL_ESTATE notes have helped me while I rented and
    when I purchased a home.  The knowledge I gained there had a direct
    impact on my family.  Of course, buying a home and getting a "good
    deal" here in Massachuestts (and there IS such a thing) has also
    encouraged me to stay here with Digital.  My family is much happier for
    the things I learned there.
    
    The MASSACHUSETTS notes affected our choice of dentist and other
    services.  Again, this has provided a direct and fortunate benefit for 
    my family.
    
    I've bought and sold through the CLASSIFIED_ADS.  It is the quickest
    way I know to buy and sell -- period.  Plus, I meet people and do 
    business with people that I have found to be trustworthy and have
    integrity.  This goes a LONG way towards encouraging a feeling of
    family and trust with me and others in the company.
    
    Then there's the DCU notes.  What member of the Digital Employee's
    Federal Credit Union has not been affected by changes over the past
    couple of years -- most of them apparently good.  Much of the changes
    and discussion were happening in the DCU notes.
    
    I could go on.  All of the notes I've mentioned are EINF.  All have
    added tangible value to my life and have helped me to perform better at
    Digital.  I simply cannot comprehend how a manager would want to shut
    down EINF, unless the manager simply has not learned how to effectively
    use notes.  The world is catching up.  There's Internet, Prodigy,
    Compuserve and so forth.  But, these do not and cannot deliver all of
    the benefits of the notes I've previously listed which are pretty much
    oriented towards the needs of Digital employees.
    
    One more thing.  EINFs that DON'T add value don't last long.  People
    lose interest and those note die.  Let the system work.  The only EINFs
    that survive are the ones that legitimately serve the needs of Digital
    employees.
    
    Steve

    Re: .192:
    
    	Steve, I couldn't agree more. Excellent testimony.
    
    	What I don't understand is the failure to appreciate the benefit
    the technology we use, defend, market and enjoy has upon the global
    community. The roots are with employees, but effects are far reaching
    through family, diverse cultures etc.
    
    	One of the realist daydreams I have with the "Imagine" advertising 
    campaign is a publicly available "flea market" where one could search
    for or advertise items for a fee. Potentially, this could be done at
    a cost and on a scale that would destroy newspaper classified
    advertising as we know it. The ability is evident. The environmental 
    benefits are obvious. The economic impact is the problem. 
    
    	I feel we've only begun to realize the impact of information
    technology on day-to-day life- witness cellular phone emergency highway 
    signs, data terminal featured public phones, SS7 telephone features 
    (Caller ID, Callback, Voice Mailbox etc.). Shutting down EINFs would 
    cripple the learning and interaction necessary to survive in this 
    diverse age, IMHO.
    
    Phil

    "Why doesn't notes go out with a timer."
    
    Imho that's a perfectly feasible engineering suggestion, Armen.  Let's
    say that the SLT mandates a study of it.  A decision to do so would
    need, I believe, to take into account not only whether it could be DONE
    (obviously it could; "it's just software" after all :-) but how much it
    would cost to do so.  Here's my first-cut list of cost categories:
    
    + Costs for the debate on the pros & cons of this decision and of the
      particular implementation path to be chosen (-: Ironic suggestion: 
      such a decision can probably be made most efficiently, with the
      available DIGITAL toolset, through the use of DECnotes by those
      making it... :-)
    
    + Developer time for adding the flag-sensor to a new rev of DECnotes
      (is the product still being supported?)
                                                                         
    + Distribution costs for disseminating the new rev
    
    + Costs for either: 
    
      ... adding a flag or attribute to each and every notesfile such that
          it can be controlled, or
    
      ... creating a central or distributed database of node::file names to
          which the new rev of DECnotes can refer when deciding whether or
          not to allow its local user to actually open the file 
      
           (incidentally, this entire model will not take into account the
           person who has SET HOST from a different time zone (outside of
           his/her OWN working hours) to an EINF hosted on a system which
           is within its time-ban.  But what of that -- it's only an EINF
           after all, not like it's doing any GOOD...)
      
      ... Costs for maintaining that flag data, either on a file-by-file
          basis or centrally
    
    + Network load caused by the dissemination of the new revs, and (in
      the case where a central reference list of EINF flags is kept) by the
      farflung worldwide clients' constant drumbeat of requests for central
      authorization, or by the costs of distributing updated copies of the
      central list to less centralized authentication servers
    
    + Costs associated with mixups in this system causing access denials
      to non-EINFs at critical phases of projects, delaying revenue
      shipments
    
    + Costs for the discussion of just exactly what is the time-band within
      which EINFs shall be proscribed.  Shall it be universally imposed
      (simpler implementation) or shall each site administrator, or each
      group of Moderators, have the power to impose a local time-band-ban? 
      Shall central administration decree that each EINF *must* be blocked
      off for 8 hours per day, but it's a local decision as to WHICH 8
      hours -- but that the band must NOT be discontinuous and must include
      at least 4 hours of the local 8AM-to-6PM blah, blah, blah... and it's
      off to hassle-hell...        
    
    + Costs for the discussion within each notesfile that has been labeled
      EINF by The Powers That Be as to whether they, collectively, ARE or
      are NOT an EINF file.  Administrative costs for requests for "special
      dispensation" for files that make a case for their relevance to
      products, product groups, general team-building, or valuing
      differences.  "We, the undersigned, are enclosing proof to you, the
      VP In Charge Of EINF Flag Decisions, that we fall only 50% under the
      Latest Official (i.e., rev. 3.07 subparagraph 4) Definition of an
      EINF and therefore we claim the right to have our time-band-ban
      reduced to only 4 hours per working day."          (hyperbole alert)  :-)
       
    ... and I'm sure I've forgotten something in the above list.
    
    Whew!!  Good thing I'm thinking and writing about this on a Saturday
    morning -- I would hate to think that DIGITAL is beginning to spend
    actual good direct labor $$s on implementing this perfectly reasonable
    engineering change... :-)
    
    Bottom line:  I regretfully submit that this cure would cost far more
    than the putative disease.  
    
    Please don't take this as direct criticism, Armen; I'm talking past you
    in hopes that anyone considering an administrative or engineering "fix"
    for this "problem" (other than Simple Good Management Of People Who Do
    Not Get Their Work Done) will also hear this message.          Regards, Dan
    

    I think this whole matter is a prime example of spending a dollar to
    save a dime.
    
    The company doesn't need Employee-Interest conferences, and the company
    could probably save some money, on paper, at least, by shutting them
    all down.
    
    We could also save money by not allowing secretaries to order certain
    supplies.  In my last group, this was the way it was ... we couldn't
    orderd post-its or papermate rollerball pens. We probably saved a few
    thousand dollars last year in supply costs. At the same time, I bet it
    cost us twice that in lost productivity, heightened frustration and
    aggravation.  I left last year mostly out of frustration, sensing that 
    mgmt was making bad decisions, decisions that made it look good on
    paper, but decisions that had a negative impact on my ability to do my
    job.
    
    Before I left, I used to go to Staples and buy my own office supplies,
    rather than wait for them to arrive via office services.  At the same
    time, my mom worked for a mom and pop operation and she had plenty of
    supplies.  I worked for a multi-billion dollar international company,
    yet I had to buy my own Post-its.  I still shake my head in amazement
    over that beauty of a decision.  I mean, really, there's a right way to
    cut costs and a wrong way.
    
    Cutting EI notes is the wrong way.
    
    If there's a problem with some people spending too much of the work day
    jabberjawwing in notes (or on the phone or at the water cooler, for
    that matter), then that's something you can track and document with
    ease.  There's no need to disallow EI notes (nor to shut off the phones
    nor to pull out the water coolers).

.189> Why doesn't notes go out with a timer.
    
    Many high-activity conferences reside on nodes which monitor and kill
    inactive links after n minutes.
    
    No need for an SLT study, nor any of the other silliness that .194
    mentions, in a tone of rather acrimonious sarcasm.

    
    re .189 --
    
    
    Let's not forget that we are an international company working in many
    time zones, with different public holidays, different weekends, etc
    etc.
    
    The fact that we are a global company is one important factor in the
    strength of EI Notes. For example, let's say I'm about to visit a
    country I've not visited before to make a presentation at a seminar.
    Don't even know the Deccies, never mind the hotel recommendations.
    Quick flick through Easynotes, entry in appropriate EINF, better than
    90% chance of quick response. Done it many times, & saved hours of
    aggravation -- & picked up invaluable do's & dont's on presentational
    techniques/social conventions in the area that no travel agent or
    seminar organiser would ever pick up.
    
    This helps us to be more professional, & so helps the company MAKE
    money. I'm losing count of the number of senior folk who are saying we
    can only survive by growth, not by further savings -- there is a
    disconnect somewhere ......
    
    
    Colin
    Colin

    
    	It's difficult, if not impossible to explain the value of
    	using cyberspace to an individual who has never used it.
    	/john

...particularly if they have an aversion to technobabble.

	RE: .200

	Like many people above a certain level in DEC.

	(Is this my day to be cynical or what?)

							mike

Win Hindle
MLO12-1/A53
Digital Equipment Corporation
146 Main Street
Maynard, MA  01754-2571


Ron Glover
MSO2-1/C4
Digital Equipment Corporation
111 Powdermill Road
Maynard, MA  01754-1418


Dear Win Hindle and Ron Glover:

Digital is considering shutting down non-business Notes conferences, as
a cost-saving measure. I recommend shutting down non-business
conferences for two reasons I see little discussed:
 Notes poses an enormous liability for the corporation, and there is a
better alternative.

Corporations have been held accountable for statements made at non-work
places such as water coolers. Notes conferences pose much more of a
problem; they are replete with statements about sex, religion, race,
and other issues that leave Digital open to lawsuits. Digital policy
purports to provide protection for employees by stating that
conferences should not be used improperly, but in practice Digital
generally does not require moderators to abide by policy. In spite of
repeated complaints from employees, Digital has not corrected the
situation. Ron Glover told me that if his superiors knew how many
problems arose from Notes conferences, they would shut down Notes
immediately. In short, Notes presents numerous problems, Digital has
been informed and could be found to be negligent, and, unlike oral
statements, Notes discussions are recorded and hence provide voluminous
evidence to be examined in court. Notes is a time bomb.

On several occasions, moderators have disavowed any responsibility to
noters. The New Hampshire moderators recently tried to formalize this
as part of their stated conference policy. I disagree with this; I have
informed the moderators, and I inform you, that I hold the moderators
and Digital responsible for the consequences of their actions, whether
that means denial of benefits, religious discrimination, or anything
else. These attempts by the moderators to avoid responsibility are
dangerous; they are declarations that the moderators will wield power
over the conferences but do not intend on fulfilling the obligations
that come with that.

The alternative to Notes conferences is Usenet. Usenet is already
available throughout Digital and is used by corporations, schools,
government agencies, and individuals around the world. Usenet is one of
the services carried on the Internet, which has over a million nodes
and uncounted millions of users and is growing quickly. Usenet contains
more than three thousand groups _ whereas Digital has only one active
mathematics conference, Usenet has vigorous discussion in general math,
math research issues, symbolic mathematics, logic, math education,
numerical analysis, and statistics. Usenet groups run the gamut from
science and engineering to politics, recreation, humor, and sex. The
network carries discussion, data, programs, patches, news from wire
services, verbatim Supreme Court decisions, engineering information,
pictures, sound, and more. It's there; all we have to do is use it.

In addition to the wealth of information available, Usenet has two
other advantages for Digital. First, Digital can act as a common
carrier, no more responsible for the content of Usenet groups than it
is responsible for the content of phone calls or newspapers that are
sold on Digital property. Many universities and private corporations
have adopted policies of not censoring Usenet, with the theory that
this makes them only a carrier, whereas any censorship on their part
would represent an assumption of responsibility and make them liable
for failure.  Second, many companies use Usenet to communicate with
customers.  They have a presence on the net; they participate in public
dialogs, they make patches and technical information available, and
they are visible to their customers. A survey of 700,000 messages
posted to Internet found the following numbers of messages posted:

8795    Hewlett-Packard
3690    IBM
3455    Sun Microsystems
2696    Motorola
2208    Apple Computer
1706    Digital Equipment Corporation

Customers on the Internet see five times as much activity from
Hewlett-Packard than from Digital. Digital posts few messages to the
net; Notes keeps discussions within the company. In essence, Digital is
introverted and is missing opportunity for exchanging ideas with the
rest of the world.

Usenet is similar to Notes in that it provides continuity for ongoing
discussions, but it does have the disadvantage that messages are
retained only for a few weeks. However, important information is
archived at sites around the world, and services are evolving to make
information available to people. That's information Digital is not
using. The temporality of Usenet is an advantage as far as legal
liability is concerned. And while flame wars are legend on Usenet, they
are transient because of the temporality, whereas Notes provides focus
and permanence _ every controversial issue is a glowing ember to be
fanned into dispute again and again.

Digital should close non-business conferences immediately, increase
support for Usenet, remove restrictions on other Internet services, and
even recommend that business conferences convert to Usenet where
possible.

	Yours truly,



	Eric Postpischil

    Eric,
    
    Go for it.
    
    Thomas Hart

    Interesting reasoning, Eric.  You're clearly more conversant with
    Usenet than I am at the moment (though the TCP/IP protocol stack is
    freshly installed on my PC and I'm about to go out CyberSurfing real
    soon now:-).
    
    There are a couple of things that occur to me as possible weaknesses of
    a Usenet-only policy to carry EINF traffic.  Please don't take these
    questions as critical, but only as "holes" (maybe only in my own
    understanding)  that I think might be addressed in any discussion of
    your proposal.  It's your call of course as to whether/when to send
    your .202 on to Hindle/Glover, but were I them (heaven forfend!) I'd be
    asking:
    
    >> What of company private discussions?  Yes, there's a real
       intellectual and competitive advantage in having our folks wandering
       the newsgroups, interpollinating their ideas with the larger
       cyberworld.  However, there is great value (imho) in the sorts of
       internal debates on company policy, or the DIGITAL perspective on
       some hobby etc., that cannot or should not find its proper venue in
       external newsgroups, lest our dirty laundry be washed publicly.  I
       believe there are DIGITAL-Internal newsgroups that have been set up,
       and that there is something about the fan-out mechanisms that keeps
       these newsgroups' traffic firmly & reliably within DIGITAL.  So --
       if this type of company-private newsgroup is set up, does not this
       vitiate your "common carrier" argument as a shield against DIGITAL's
       liability for any discussions held within such newsgroups?  And
       specifically, in the case of traffic now handled within EINFs:  If
       such Employee Interest Company Private NewsGroups (EICPNGs) were
       proscribed by DIGITAL for exactly that reason (to limit liability),
       we'd lose the "democracy wall" aspect of EINF's -- which you claim
       to be a "time bomb," which I claim to be one of the chief
       intellectual and team-building ornaments of the DIGITAL culture, and
       which senior management may dislike because it tends to flatten the
       hierarchy.
    
    >> Another possible downside is costs for Internet access.  While I
       agree wholeheartedly that more of us should be present & vocal on
       the Internet, I can see cost-conscious or network-resource-chary
       administrators cutting off EINFs for (imho totally) bogus
       cost-saving reasons, and then turning right around and denying
       funding or network bandwidth resources for the alternative you
       propose (and I realize that it's not YOU who proposed EICPNGs, it
       was me).  Or am I totally offbase and Usenet access/viewing is far
       less expensive than EINF's?  I really am uninformed on the data
       streams involved (but ask me again in a couple of months!).  Your
       note mentions "increase support for Usenet, remove restrictions on
       other Internet services, and even recommend that business
       conferences convert to Usenet where possible."  What are the real
       costs involved?  Is this feasible?
    
    There are probably more questions that will occur to me in the morning,
    but it's been a long day.  I'd appreciate learning more about this
    before I can say whether I agree fully, but I thank you for shedding
    more light on the issue for me.
     									Dan

    re .202
    
    Your proposal seems to be largely irrelevant to the current
    discussion.  Whilst we're not really sure why "they" might
    want to shut down some notes files, it would seem to be
    because of one or more of
    
    	a.  wasted employee time
    	b.  wasted disk space
    	c.  wasted network bandwidth
    
    Switching to reading Usenet news doesn't alter (a), probably
    doesn't much affect (c), and may or may not affect (b)
    much - since news seems to evaporate after a while, I will
    agree that there's some reduction.
    
    Also, what's the difference between sending a message, and
    posting that same message in a public forum but with a label 
    (in the subject field of the enclosing note, only) saying
    "shall I send it"?  It is now visible to the addressed parties, 
    should they choose to come and read it.  The fact that you can 
    disavow having "sent" it is irrelevant.  
    

USENET supports private hierarchies of newsgroups (such as the one we use, dec).
Also, many many conferences are gatewayed to/from dec-private newsgroups.

    
    
      But then again,  if weather maps are to be considered an improper
    use of the network,  what would make USENET newsgroups any 
    different?
    
    
    						-al

    Re .204:
    
    > >> What of company private discussions?
    
    There are currently 129 groups in the 'dec' hierarchy, not including
    the 220 in 'dec.notes'.  More later.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Re .205:
    
    > Also, what's the difference between sending a message, and posting
    > that same message in a public forum but with a label  (in the subject
    > field of the enclosing note, only) saying "shall I send it"?
    
    It's like the difference between a signed contract and an unsigned
    contract.  One is a document I have asserted/agreed to.  The other is
    something I am only considering.
    
    
    				-- edp

I am thinking of sending this reply.
    
    Comments? Suggestions?
    
    ken
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    

Dear         :


This matter is rather simple. The company's proposal to delete "non-business 
related notes" fails a number of logic gates:

1. With few exceptions, no one notes group can be defined as "business 
   related" or not "business related."

2. The cost of Notes is claimed to be $2/employee/year.

3. The proposed deletion of Notes is largely seen as shortsighted -- even 
   counterproductive -- by a workforce that has largely indicated 
   in Notes and through other forums that they believe company management
   to be largely shortsighted and counterproductive. Indeed, this 
   publically-expressed opinion of management by employees is seen by 
   many to be the primary driving force in any desire to shut down 
   Notes. Does this proposal tie into the company's recently announced 
   Information Integration Strategy?

4. The proposed deletion of Notes is largely seen as a further attempt, 
   in line with the disappearance of employee communications and DELTA, 
   to prevent employees from freely sharing their thoughts and ideas.

5. If, as some suspect, management wishes to limit direct interemployee 
   communications, it is, frankly, surprisingly naive to believe 
   that this can be accomplished by deleting Notes. Communications occurs 
   with or without company blessing. The ceasation of official 
   communications is immediately and vigorously met with creation of 
   informal communications, which may be full of incorrect information 
   but which grow to replace the volume and intensity of the communications
   formerly handled by more formal channels. Use of the Internet is likely
   to grow in direct proportion to the suppression of Notes, and the Internet
   is quite literally open to the entire world. For several dollars a month,
   anyone with a terminal and modem can access the Internet, which currently 
   carries in excess of 5,400 different notes groups. The proposed 
   deletion of Notes suggests that management lacks knowledge and 
   understanding of the vast array of non-Notes means of electronic 
   communications available. This does not paint a flattering 
   picture of management's grasp of current technology or trends in 
   communication.

6. The assigning of this project to Employee Relations has elicited a
   most negative response from a number of people who feel that ER is not a 
   group capable of impartially addressing this issue.   

7. If we delete Notes we will be in an impossible position in suggesting that 
   customers adopt this technology.


I hope this information will aid you in your decision.


Regards,

Ken Sherman


[composed on my own time, Tuesday evening, 17 Aug 1993}

    re.-.211
    
    
    I like that idea better....
    re.-.202
    than this idea.
    
       But after all , I work from a dumb Digital terminal and can't
    figure out how to expense a workstation in any form, much less
    justify that secretary I've always wanted to read/answer my mail.
    
    
    					Pablo
    
    

        >re.-.211
>    
>    I like that idea better....
>    re.-.202
>    than this idea.

    hi Pablo, iam bit confused, did you mean you like .202 more than
    .211 or .211 more than .202 ? it was not clear to me what you meant,
    i came back 2 days ago and still dizzy from chess playing so that is why 
    may be iam still not as sharp as usual.

    thanks,

    \nasser

    .202 was surely a wind-up 

    expanding on .205
    
>    	a.  wasted employee time

            Well, for every 'non-business related notes file'
            there is a usenet newsgroup equivalent. And plenty
	    of others, and un-moderated too.
	
>    	b.  wasted disk space
>    	c.  wasted network bandwidth

            The way usenet works, every article gets copied to every
	    server on the network. Hardly a saving over notes.

    Compare sysadmin costs for notes with that for a usenet news 
    server node. Compare startup time for vaxnotes with any news reader
    program. 
    
    Dave

Re:        <<< Note 2605.213 by STAR::ABBASI "iam a good si'kick" >>>

>    i came back 2 days ago and still dizzy from chess playing so that is why 
>    may be iam still not as sharp as usual.

I hadn't noticed...  :-)  :-)  :-)

-  David

    
    
    		no problemo nasser, i like .211 bettern' .202  .
    No offense to Erik, I especially liked his dissertation on 
    Usenet access and nodes.I filed it for future use.
    
    
    			Pablo
    

    Re .204:
    
    > So -- if this type of company-private newsgroup is set up, does not
    > this vitiate your "common carrier" argument as a shield against
    > DIGITAL's liability for any discussions held within such newsgroups?
    
    This would not be as much of a problem as Notes, for several reasons. 
    There would be much fewer Digital-only non-business Usenet groups than
    non-business Notes conferences, since most non-business discussions can
    be shared with the world.  And Usenet is transient -- the moderators
    don't have to decide whether the note stays forever as it does in
    current Notes conferences; it _will_ go away on Usenet.  This makes it
    a bit more like DTN -- Digital might still have to discipline an
    employee for making a harassing phone call, but it doesn't have to
    control the phone network.
    
    > Or am I totally offbase and Usenet access/viewing is far less
    > expensive than EINF's?
    
    I don't have actual costs on either one, but note that not only do many
    schools and businesses carry Internet, but even individuals run their
    own Internet nodes.  
    
    
    				-- edp

Hmmmn...according to LiveWire, the SLT has decided against getting rid of EINF.
So i guess we can put this topic to sleep (for now).
								- paul

 Worldwide News                                              LIVE WIRE

 Employee interest notes files to continue ...               Date: 20-Aug-1993

                 Employee interest notes files to continue 

         Digital's Senior Leadership Team decided to maintain employee
   interest notes files at a recent SLT meeting, according to Win Hindle,
   vice president, Office of Quality, Ethics and Business Practices.
   The costs of maintaining these notes files had been under discussion.
         The SLT considered numerous comments from employees and reviewed
   cost and usage information before making the decision.  The team also
   decided to conduct a review of current standards, guidelines and policies
   associated with the use of employee interest notes files.
         Meanwhile, all employees are requested to follow existing guidelines
   and policies for proper use of the network, as stated in Personnel Policy
   6.54, "Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and Networks."
         This worldwide policy states, "Information, and the ability to
   communicate it, are valuable assets that play a significant role in
   Digital's success.  The protection and appropriate use of these assets
   is everyone's responsibility."
         Digital's network is a powerful business tool, and employees are
   encouraged to use it with sensitivity to managing Digital's communications
   costs and in accordance with the company's philosophy and values.

    
    Re: .219
    
    > The team also decided to conduct a review of current standards,
    > guidelines and policies associated with the use of employee
    > interest notes files.
    
    This doesn't sound to me like anything's decided.  This sounds like
    just a different approach.
    
    Steve
    

    Who were the employees who were given official notice that this policy
    was under review?  Did we all miss the "call for comment" on this one?
    
    Or was all the comment that reached the SLT based on the rumor that
    originated in mail and in these notes themselves?
    
    How were the issues of that the SLT'ers of "cost" and "usage" that were
    discussed presented?

    
    
    free to NOTE !! free to NOTE !! 
    
    lets go PARTY !!
            
    \nasser

    Nasser, sounds like you're quoting Dr. King!  Anyway, I'd summarize the
    decision like this:  "Use it, don't abuse it."
    
    Mark

Worldwide News                     LIVE WIRE

 Employee interest notes files to continue ...   Date: 20-Aug-1993

Page   1 of 1  
               Employee interest notes files to continue
          
         Digital's Senior Leadership Team decided to maintain employee 
   interest notes files at a recent SLT meeting, according to Win Hindle, 
   vice president, Office of Quality, Ethics and Business Practices.  
   The costs of maintaining these notes files had been under discussion. 
         The SLT considered numerous comments from employees and reviewed 
   cost and usage information before making the decision.  The team also 
   decided to conduct a review of current standards, guidelines and policies 
   associated with the use of employee interest notes files.  
         Meanwhile, all employees are requested to follow existing guidelines 
   and policies for proper use of the network, as stated in Personnel Policy 
   6.54, "Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and Networks."  
         This worldwide policy states, "Information, and the ability to 
   communicate it, are valuable assets that play a significant role in 
   Digital's success.  The protection and appropriate use of these assets 
   is everyone's responsibility."
         Digital's network is a powerful business tool, and employees are 
   encouraged to use it with sensitivity to managing Digital's communications 
   costs and in accordance with the company's philosophy and values.  

From:	DRDAN::KALIKOW      "Dan Kalikow, Consultant, IM&T Info Deliv. 
	Utility" 21-AUG-1993 11:08:41.22
To:	nm%mts$::"mso::RON GLOVER", nm%mts$::"mlo::WIN HINDLE"
CC:	nm%mts$::"mso::JOSE RAMIREZ"
Subj:	SLT Decision to continue employee interest notes files

Gentlemen:

I was one of those who participated in the HUMANE::DIGITAL notesfile
string 2605.* on Employee Interest Notes Files, and I discussed the
matter briefly with Jose Ramirez earlier this month.

Speaking only for myself, I want to thank you and your colleagues VERY
much for taking the decision you announced yesterday.  

Concerning the sentence from the VTX statement on this matter "The
[SL]team also decided to conduct a review of current standards,
guidelines and policies associated with the use of employee interest
notes files.":  I know I am only one of many DIGITAL employees who
would gladly volunteer personal time, technical information and
opinions on the use of DECnotes at DIGITAL, should you be interested.

Regards,

Dan Kalikow

I received a message from Ron Glover on 05-Sep-1993 expressing appreciation
for sharing my "perspective on the issue of closing the Employee Interest 
Notes File (EINF)."  He "received more than 60 mail messages and a significant 
number of phone calls from employees all over the world."  His staff and he
"summarized the points raised in these messages and shared them with the Senior
Leadership Team (SLT)."  And the SLT "decided to continue to support its  
responsible use."

Ron also stated:

    "It is important for me and for managers across the company to get the
     kind of clear, direct feedback we received on this issue.  I earnestly 
     hope you will feel free to contact me again on other matters of 
     importance to you."

So it sounds like we made a difference in helping keep EINF open by writing
the notes.  Thanks to everyone who wrote and called Ron.  :-)

Judy