Conference 7.286::digital

    I think you have every right to be concerned.  Digital, even in good
    times, has NEVER had an effective college hiring program....what little
    college recruiting we did was ah-hoc'y to an extreme.  There was never
    any central focus or any corporate effort to hire the best and
    brightest and put them through management training programs, which is
    almost a fact of life in well managed corporations.  Most of our
    competition have formal programs and continue them even in hard times
    because they know the payback is there.
    
    I have had college recruiters tell me that because of Digital's mickey
    mouse approach to recruiting they get no support from the colleges and
    very little interest is shown when a couple hiring managers do show up.
    
    We reap what we plant.

   Re:                       <<< Note 1878.0 by GOLF::WILSON >>>

Actually, if you look at the age distribution by job
classification, we look quite good (and will soon look much
better) because our "senior citizens" are mostly at the top and
are mostly leaving from the middle and lower levels.  Maybe the
only "old timers" whose difference is being valued is that of KO
and his senior vp's.

Thanks for the "patience and wisdom bit" but about now, I'm
willing to give the "experience" away.

[a personal opinion, not necessarily shared by the company's
management]

Dick

      Part of my fustration as I grow older in this business, is that much
     of what I have seen done is being done over again. Alot like my children,
    they don,t want experience, they want to experience it for themselves.
    Valuing experience and using experience is two different things.
    Running a business must be like history, it will repeat itself and we
    pay alot to do the same thing again. What is the mangaement style in 
    your cost center this year?
     Becoming a Senior Citizen has meant alot of seeing younger people do
    something new to them and old to me.    
    
    
     

    What i see is the same old managment-style buzzwords trotted out that
    were vogue thru the 70s-early80s.  The difference now is that they are
    not studied beyond the jargon level, and are discarded before being
    seriously tried, so their life-cycle is mercifully short.  An eerie
    sense of de'ja'vu overcomes me when i hear them in the same sequence
    they first appeared.  I actually heard 'management-by-objectives'
    again!!  Of course, we only heard it once, not for three months of
    lip service like in 1975!   Really pretty funny.  The most hilarious
    of these has been 'teams', administered as the antithesis of teamwork!
    	mwr

    ref .3  " What is the management style in your cc this year?"
    
    I can honestly say, that I am thankful that they were't Officers aboard
    my ship. If one of them were to fall overboard on the port side, many
    of us would run to the starboard side and whisper "man overboard
    starboard side". Similar to the shore side grunts hoping for a
    fragging. Honestlywhen they start to respect the senior people it may
    be a little to late, right now, that uncertainty of the future is having
    many of us buying the Sunday papers. Some of us have actually been told
    that DEC is not going to question us if we should seek a position
    elsewhere. Ah, the NEW DEC! 
            

   Re:                     <<< Note 1878.3 by LUDWIG::LOGSDON >>>

I understand.  But you have to remember that we and our children
have seen so many "leaders and authority figures" turn out to
have feet of clay, that nobody can trust learning from someone
else's experience any more.  I'd bet that even in cultures where
veneration of elders is a much stronger tradition than in the
West, there is less respect for the "wisdom of the aged".  Our
generation has seen widespread publicity given to all kinds of
"fallen idols" and business leaders are included.  We have to
prove our credentials every day.

Dick

    I agree with .3 that many of the mistakes of the past are being
    repeated, and those of us that have been through it before are ignored
    or accused of not being team players.

	Do we have "age discrimination" at DEC?  Of course we do.

	Did you expect those now under 45, to pick a number, to exhibit
	any more respect for their elders than we did at their age? 

	Gimme a break.  Disrespect for authority/elders/institutions is
	as American as baseball.

	Personally, I'd love to have a job in which it were possible to
	earn the respect of my peers every day.  Unfortunately, DEC has
	far too many employees for the amount of real (profitable) work
	to be done;  so it's tough finding one of those jobs, and it is
	likely to become a lot _more_ difficult.


			Charlton Allen

In one respect, retirement age folks have an advantage over
younger employees in that their medical benefits continue.

Example:

- Digital employee from age 52 to 62 = medical benefits upon 
  retirement.

- Digital employee from age 30 to 40 = 0 medical benefits upon 
  retirement.

Bernice

>> Example:

>> - Digital employee from age 52 to 62 = medical benefits upon 
>>  retirement.

>> - Digital employee from age 30 to 40 = 0 medical benefits upon 
>>  retirement.
    
    What does this mean?  Are you saying that anyone who is currently age
    30- 40 gets NO MEDICAL BENEFITS WHEN THEY RETIRE (at age 55+)?  If so,
    that's news to me! 
    
    

    
    Re: last 2.
    
    Humph!  I don't see what the "old timers" are complaining about.  
    They get better treatment while they are *with* the company via
    the "Old Boy Network" and better retirement and severance than
    I'll ever see!
    
    -Ed
    

    Re. .10
    
    If you are employed by Digital 10 years or more and leave at
    retirement age, you get medical benefits.
    
    If you are employed by Digital 10 years or more and leave
    prior to retirement age, you get no medical benefits.
    
    Bernice

Are the benefits the same regardless of years worked in excess of 10,
and age at retirement, and age at which you begin drawing retirement
pay?

And how does this work for folks who take the 50+ early retirement package?

- g

ps: and what about people who take a "one time" retirement lump sum
    settlement when they leave?

    
    Re .11: "Old timers" who are real workers (ie, individual contributors)
    do not receive any benefit from the "Old Boy Network".
    

    re: .14
    
    Sure we do.  I'm finding it easier to look for a new position because
    I've been here a long time and consequently am well known in Digital's
    engineering community.
        John Sauter

    
    I see your point.
    
    I've always thought that receiving special consideration because of your
    reputation was just good sense.
    
    When people say "Old Boy Network", I always think of receiving special
    consideration *in spite of* your reputation.
    

    THE other day here the oldboys got milk and cookies from management
    free..

>                         -< ... and is it guaranteed >-

Pensions are guaranteed, but not medical benefits. On the other hand,
they have to change benefits for the entire class of retired employees.

>Are the benefits the same regardless of years worked in excess of 10,
>and age at retirement, and age at which you begin drawing retirement
>pay?

There are differences. The amount of your pension benefit depends on the
amount of money paid into your pension. I.e., the number of years worked
and the salary. Medical benefits are roughly identical to those of a
current employee. I.e., you can get an HMO for "free" or a private package
for roughly the same fee as if you took that package as a current employee.
Pension can be paid out as a monthly benefit, or as a lump sum, or as
a deferred lump sum.

>And how does this work for folks who take the 50+ early retirement package?

They're treated as if they were five years older with five more years
employment.

>ps: and what about people who take a "one time" retirement lump sum
>    settlement when they leave?

That's their pension benefit.

For example, suppose you earn $50,000/year and have $150,000 in your
penison "account."  The early retirement package would be roughly
$25,000 (six months) salary + either $150,000 lump sum or about $1000/month
if you begin drawing on the benefit now, or about $1800 if you wait until
you're 65. (I'm making the numbers up as I go along.)

Medical benefits continue until Medicare kicks in.

Clearer now?

Martin.

>            (age * number_of_years_in_dec)
>            ------------------------------      months salary
>                         34
    
    Shouldn't that be divided by 3400?  Otherwise everyone would be getting
    more than a month's salary (assuming all retirees are over 50).
    
    tgcf

    I would think everyone would get at least a months salary - that's the
    pay period.

re: .18

Yes, that helps.  ALL of my questions were about health benefits
at retirement, and later, not about the financial benefits.

I fear that over time medical benefits will both have increased
restrictions (such as pro rata benefits depending on years
employed, age at retirement, etc.), and increased costs (including
the possibility of different health coverage costs/co-payments
depending on the same variables).

No guarantee?  So it could also be zero at some point in the future?

One last question: are health benefits available to employees
who reach vesting, but who leave the company prior to retirement age?

- greg

re: .22

>One last question: are health benefits available to employees
>who reach vesting, but who leave the company prior to retirement age?

No.  Federal law requires that you become vested in your pension rights.  There
is no such requirement for health benefits.

Bob

    re .20:
    
    No, 3400 would make it pretty small...
    
    Example: you're 48 years old, and have worked for DEC for 18 years:
    
    (45 * 18) / 34 = ~23.8 month's salary.
    
    Monthly salary in this formula is (13/12)*salary, because it's paid 13
    times a year, plus car allowance (if you have a company car -
    ~$450/month) + a few  other, usually small benefits.
    
    Those over 50 get an extra DM 600 (~$375) per year of age. Those over
    55 will not be TFSO'd.
    
    As .24 mentioned, this in the TFSO (redundancy) package.

    
    Re: The main topic
    
    Yeah, as the formula clearly shows, digital rapes it's young.
    Two employees, same years of service, older one get's better deal.
    
    It that ain't age discrimination, I dunno what is.
    
    -Ed
    

    Yes.  It is age discrimination, but not in the classic sense. Almost
    invariably, it's the older person who gets the bad deal, and then he
    has trouble getting another job because of his age.
    
    twe, 50+

    Tom, you're older than you look!  Though come to think of it you were
    here when I first started working here, and you're still here - that
    must make BOTH of us "old".
    
    The usual case of age discrimination is when the "older" workers are
    shuffled off under one pretext or another, and then can't find work.
     
    The DEC variation of this used to be that new college graduates were
    then brought in at *higher* salaries, causing the remaining "older"
    workers to become demoralized - this doesn't occur so much any more.
    Life has become much more "classical".
    
    There are times when I wouldn't mind "retiring" - I could use a good
    deal more spare time than I get - but while I have the years of
    service, I am not old enough - plus I'd soon go broke!
    
    /Charlotte

Age discrimination suits against Digital are mentioned in the sidebar to an
article on downsizing at the Mother Jones web site at URL:

http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/JA96/monroe.html
				/AHM

    re .29
    
    A most interesting article. 

Doesn't one have to be displaced by a younger individual to claim age 
discrimination?

Simply losing one's job because the job went away does not constitute age 
discrimination.  Someone quite a bit younger must be given the same job for 
an age discrimination suit to be valid.

Most folks being tfso'd are leaving jobs that wind up in the bit bucket.

    > Doesn't one have to be displaced by a younger individual to claim age 
      discrimination?
    
    Nope.  An unscrupulous manager could say, "We have ten positions here. 
    We have to cut half of them.  Get rid of everyone over age 50."
    
    That's illegal.

    Protecting older workers??... What's next? Telling us to start 
    respecting employees, giving them health benefits, turkeys at
    thanksgiving, increasing wages faster than inflation and not
    raiding their pension funds for BOD profit sharing...
    
    Get with the times, this is the 90s... Either you're a CEO and a
    major stockholder or beef on the hoof being lead to the slaughter.
    
    God I love the smell of capitalism in the morning.... It smells like
    Victory;-)
    
    JMHO 
    John W.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

re: .33

>    God I love the smell of capitalism in the morning.... It smells like
>    Victory;-)
    
Now, now, John, be careful about valuing differences here!  You gotta
remember that capitalism is a secular religion for some of the younger
folks, so don't put their beliefs down.  To them the fact that the
commies rolled over and died (although that may be temporary) is a
veritable Sign from on high. ;-)

Seriously though, i wonder if capitalism necessarily means short-term
thinking (slash-and-burn, eating your seed corn, whatever).  In my
distant youth, at least, being a conservative meant you were against
this kind of stuff.

- paul

    Well, I would be against age discrimination on priciple, but there are
    a lot of good reasons for not doing it:
    
    A company which values its older employees and looks after them wins a
    lot of loyalty, which is another word for motivation. 
    
    Older employees can contribute in ways which less experienced employees
    cannot. 
    
    They give a company a sense of stability, self-confidence, esprit de
    corps, which the market place notices. (If they don't even look after
    their own, are they going to look after their customers ?)  
    
    That is not to say that every single one of us should line dance up to
    our 65th birthday, there is plenty of scope for voluntary early
    retirement schemes, part-time work etc. But it is sad to read in this
    conference of people who have given their best years to the company
    leaving on such a bitter note. I am not saying that there is evidence
    of discrimination, but even the fact that some older guys feel so
    bad about it is a sign that the issue has not been well managed. 

It would be interesting to know how many people who were TFSO'd later
came back either as contractors or permanent employees.  And whether
there was any age difference between those hired back in each of
those two categories.

- paul