Conference 7.286::digital

        I half, on occazhun, writen for customers two consume.  And I can
    ashure you that we due a mutch more good job than this internal rag
    sugests we are capabel of.

    
    
    	Own misfrake?? I thinked he sayd 2 mispleds and real bad
    	gramaar and awfol santance struture.
    
    
    	i don't nava do that.
    
    	B*)
    	rth
    

You read the ad, didn't you?

That's the whole idea.

---

My current favorite ad is a 2-page Word Perfect spread in the current
MacWeek. It presents the virtues of the product and is illustrated by a
photo of a young lady staring perplexed into a Mac screen as she talks
on the phone (the sidebar gives their product info number).

Except, there are no cables attached to the computer.

I posted it outside my cubicle with some additional text: "Do you see
some cables? Plug them in and call me back if it still  doesn't work.

Martin.

    Is this the best you can do, Dick?  
    
    If your eight [sic] grade grammar teacher could see the evidence in .0
    of your inability to construct a sentence, they would agree that we
    should be grateful you are not writing for customer consumption.
    

    Re: Note 1759.1 by LEDS::ZAYAS

>       I half, on occazhun, writen for customers two consume.  And I can
>   ashure you that we due a mutch more good job than this internal rag
>   sugests we are capabel of.

    "Half" is misspelled. It's "haf" - that's OK, we all make misteaks.
    

    
    
    If we can get 90% accuracy why bother about the other 12% ?
    
    Simon

    About three weeks ago, Digital ran an 11 page ad in PCWeek introducing
    our renewed effort in the PC market:
    
    "Can an 8,000 lb. elephant outrun the gazelles?" on page 1.
    Page 2 started out with "Stand back.  Announcing desktop direct from
    Digital."  It then continued on, still in fairly large point type:
    "It all started hear.  With your wish list..." and so on.
    
    I looked and looked for a play on the word "hear" in the ad...
    it *was* fairly close to the elephant's ear, and there were
    references to "we listened" later on a separate page, so somebody
    can always claim that they meant to use the word "hear" instead
    of "here" as a catchy theme.  However, the ad was only run once
    [to my knowldge; I haven't seen it since] and I remain convinced
    that it was a grand missteak.   -kb   

    DEC was never good at Marketing .

    Fire the idiots who okay'd the copy.
    
    	- andy

    My favourite all-time spelling mistake in an ad was in (I think)
    Computer Weekly in the UK.
    
    It was for WANG. Only they used a K instead of a G !!!
    
    It's true! I've still got a copy somewhere underneath the piles of
    rubbish around my desk!
    
    
    				Jamie.

	... TV commercials Don Z. said were coming in February, on NCAA and PGA tele-
casts!  Get those VCR's primed, and the remote control batteried!

    I guess this is turning into a "my favorite glitched ad" note...
    
    Mine is one I still have.  It's from the Technology Transfer Institite
    describing a course in Controlling Software Projects.  On the cover are
    Tom DeMarco and Tim Lister with their arms around each other.  Just the
    two of them. 
    
    And there are 5 hands in the picture...
    

    I think part of the problem is that we have somehow managed to raise
    a whole generation of lousy spellers in the U.S., often with advanced
    degrees.
    
    When challenged, these yahoos offer the same excuse...."I didn't have
    time for run the Spell Checker".....as if it is totally unreasonable
    to expect them to have native spelling skills.  I have the world's
    best spelling checker right here on my desk.  It's called a dictionary.
    
    Reminds me of the bright young guy I had in my Communications class at
    Iowa Tech.  He spelled "tubes" as toobs, tuebs, teubs, tuubs, and
    occasionally, albiet randomly, as tubes.  Used to really get upset
    when I docked him a full grade point for his spelling.  Claimed it
    wasn't important at all.

   > ."I didn't have time for run the Spell Checker".
                          ^^^
    Who needs to spell properly when one can't put together a correct
    sentence...

Notes to .13 and .14

Spell checker wouldn't catch either snafu!

Bruce

    Maybe he didn't have time to run the GRAMMAR CHECKER.

Is this the GRAMMAR CHECKER that was announced in Sales Update with the
catchly headline "VAX GRAMMAR -- First in it's field" ???????

Many of the spelling errors I see would not be corrected by a spell checker.
One of the most common is using "your" for "you're". When I see this, I usually
have to read the sentence two or three times to make sense out of it.

I think that the cause of much of this is that most people learn their language
from TV and other spoken sources, instead of from books and other written
sources. To the ear, "your" and "you're" are the same word. To the eye, they
are not.

I think that, when reading, many people essentially speak the words to
themselves, then process what they "hear". This slows down their reading.
It also makes some errors invisible. (Perhaps I should say "inaudible".)

    Want to know why we have a whole generation or two of bad spellers?

    I was going over a book report by my seventh grade son a few weeks
    ago. There were a multitude of the common mistakes: there/their,
    recieve, etc. He was upset by these errors, but then after a while
    he said, "I'm just not a good speller." "What do you mean?" "Well,
    [his teacher] says there are good spellers and bad spellers, and
    some people just can't spell."

    I've heard that from a few people since. It seems there's a growing
    belief that some genetic imbalance causes people to never learn how to
    spell. Just as we've done with "sex addiction" and a myriad other
    personal shortcomings, we're rationalizing and institutionalizing our
    inability to express our thoughts coherently in writing, rather than
    figuring out how to solve the problem. Instead of encouraging a gifted
    but underworked boy to stop watching television, read more serious
    literature and practice writing, my son's teacher gave him a convenient
    excuse to use whenever others point out his mistakes.

    I told my son what I thought his teacher should have told him. He said,
    "I'll try," to which I retorted with my best imitation of Yoda's "Do, or
    do not! There is no try." We'll see what happens.

    About two years ago we had to throw away a load of DECstation info
    sheets when - JUST before they were about to be sent out to the office
    libraries - someone noticed that the line that should have read:
    
    	"It is worth noting that the first-ever version of Unix ran on a
    	Digital computer"
    
    actually read:
    	"It is worth nothing that the first-ever Unix ran on a Digital..."

    
    Nige L.

    re .19
    
    I would never have thought it possible to be a "bad speller".  However,
    my son has been professionally diagnosed as having a spelling
    disability.  He cannot memorize, or sound out words to spell them.  
    He has been told to keep a dictionary with him.

   I believe that this is another indication of an educational system
    that is failing to meet the needs of our society.  This is no slam 
    on teachers who for the most part are doing the best they can in a system 
    that doesn't work.  Spell checkers are a wonderful convenience, but do
    not replace a good education.     Louise 
    

    Re: <<< Note 1759.19 by WLDBIL::KILGORE >>> 
    
    >I told my son what I thought his teacher should have told him. He said,
    >"I'll try," to which I retorted with my best imitation of Yoda's "Do, or
    >do not! There is no try." We'll see what happens.
    
    Well, I wouldn't go *that* far.  It's good to try--and keep on trying.
    You're bound to achieve some measure of success, albeit not perfection.
    
    My father used to preach to me on the same topic by using the old
    adage: "I'll try," has done wonders.  "I can't," never did anything. 
    Truer words were never spoken.
    
    Then, when it came to the "doing" part, he recited a poem:
    
    If a job you've once begun,
    Do it well until it's done.
    Be it large or be it small,
    Do it well or not at all.
    
    Dad's going to be 90 years young this April.  Amazing how much smarter
    he gets each day.
    
    /Ed

    I once saw a DEC brochure on quality that had the word "quality" all
    over its cover in various languages.
    
    The Hebrew was upside down.
    
    Now, this may have been the version that did *not* go out and got
    caught in time.  It was hanging on somebody's office wall.

>    I once saw a DEC brochure on quality that had the word "quality" all
>    over its cover in various languages.
>   
>    The Hebrew was upside down.

I still have a copy of a DEC brochure on Quality that was mailed to all
employees.  The cover was attached upside-down.

-steve-

    re .19.....apparently the good Sisters of St. Joseph who taught me had
    never heard of "genetic imbalances".  As best I can remember, they also
    hadn't heard that some kids couldn't read.  We simply weren't allowed
    any mistakes in grammar or spelling.  Anytime a kid made such an error,
    whatever subject we were on was terminated immediately, and a short
    English lesson was conducted to solve the problem.
    
    Of course, we had no TV, no malls, and most of all no money!!  Don't
    know how we ever survived it.  Oh, we also had no sports and the whole
    school only had one toilet......but most of us could read at college
    level when we transferred to the public high school for grade nine.
                                                     

	Don't bash DEC too hard, has anyone noticed all the typos that have
been appearing in the New York Times in the last few years or so? Maybe the 
Japanese are right. We are getting lazy, and making all kinds of excuses why
it's OK.

-John-

re .19, .21:

Generally speaking, dyslexics are poor spellers.  Dyslexia is an organic
problem, often hereditary, so poor spelling *can* be genetic.

See ASABET::LEARNING_DISABILITIES for more information.

	I think SOME material is occasionally hacked up for  "fun"  in 
the production processes and not caught before going to press.  Some
tongue in cheek stuff doesn't get edited out, or even gets edited IN
by someone with a grudge.  Not all of the "errors" we see are due to
inability to spell or punctuate.

	R

    Just had a chance to read this note and the string of replies......
    
    The "hear" in the PC ad was intentional.  I saw the ad before
    publication and asked the program manager just to make sure.

    >The "hear" in the PC ad was intentional.  I saw the ad before
    >publication and asked the program manager just to make sure.
    
    It's a poor joke that needs explanation..
    
    I've decided that, like Calvin, I don't need Math or English skills
    because I'm a 'visual person'.
    
    karl

I find Spelling Checkers to be much more effective than Spell Checkers 

    re .27  Hey dick we musta gone to diffrunt skools together.



    Boy would Sister Mary Magdeline have had fun with that one!! 
    Lack of punctuation, improper capitalization, misspelling, and any
    number of other grammatical errors. I think the only thing missing is a
    redundancy. (you know the one about the armed gunman who fatally kills
    someone?) 

    Dyslexia is a valid physical reason for a person having problems with
    reading and other language skills but laziness is not!!!! I have been
    told that I must learn to write training courses for engineers at a 
    lower level than what I have gotten used to. Why? Because my average
    written language level is approximately equal to the junior year of
    college BUT the average reading skills level of the engineers who are
    my intended audience is at or below EIGHTH GRADE level. In my personal
    opinion we are witnessing a backlash of the permissiveness and lack of
    discipline that started in the sixties and has run rampant in the home
    and school over the last 25 years, (please note that there are always 
    exceptions) I have been extremely lucky with all four of my kids, and 
    the grandkids. They all love to read and the even manage to understand
    what is intended. I refused to accept "I can't" or "Iduhno". I'll try
    or let me look it up was always rewarded with at the very least words
    of encouragement. My sister (who by the way is 15 years younger than 
    me) is bad and her boys are atrocious. TV, MTV, video games, and picture 
    books cannot take all the blame for the national disgrace of functional 
    illiteracy that is evident in all levels of the work place.

    Do I use spell check? Yes, because I know I have a tendency to try to
    type faster than I should and my manual dexterity is not what it used
    to be. ( what a crock? I've got two left hands)  Do I need the spell 
    checker? I like to think not, but I do keep a dictionary on my desk.

	Dyslexia is thought to be hereditary, my father has it, both my 
	brothers have it, and so do I.
	It doesn't mean you spell badly, it means that when you write the word, 
	the letters often come out in a different order.
	Because many spelling tests, and teaching people to spell are often 
	done through the written word, rather than orally, many dyslexics have 
	been taught the wrong spelling in the first place.

	It takes a great deal of effort to ensure that things that I write, 
	look fine to me, also look OK to others.

	I know there are many words that I write incorrectly, and also see 
	incorrectly, so they look good to me.

	I know that       b e l i e v e   is spelt that way, however, when
	writing, I write beleive - it looks OK to me, I can't see the error.

	It's the same way with filed instead of field

	and many words that have   ld, ad, te, li, el  etc etc

	To ensure I have them written correctly, I use the spell checker, and,
	sometimes, go over each word character by character, covering over the 
	other letters with my fingers, so I only see 1 character at a time.

	I don't usually take all this trouble when writing notes.
	And even if I do, then some things can slip past.

	I am fortunate that my problem does not also cover numbers, as it does
	with my father and one of my brothers......
	.....maybe that's why I have always prefered Assembler to Cobol!!!!!

	Heather

    
    
    I taught English in a public high school for ten years in life before
    DEC.  You are all correct.
    
    There is and has been a noticeable decline in language ability.  In the
    last few years before I left the classroom (1981), we were appalled at
    the quality of the student teachers coming out of the colleges.  It
    really was incredible.  One student teacher I had intended to graduate
    and teach English and for my money she couldn't write a coherent
    paragraph.  I shouldn't have been surprised at what I found when I came
    to DEC.  In reading reports, memos, etc. I am still amazed at how
    poorly we communicate and still stay in business.  I would love to be
    able to put a dollar figure on the cost to Digital of ineffective
    communication.  I would bet my badge that the figure is somewhere in
    the tens of millions a year.
    
    On the other hand, there are "bad spellers" who through no lack
    of intellect have a tough time with spelling, grammar, etc.  That has
    been recognized for years.  Some persons who are very bright are
    weak in the cognitive area that contributes to being able to use
    language well.  Just as some ball players are great at the plate and
    marginal in the field, some students excell at understanding the
    abstract concepts of higher math, but need a dictionary handy in
    English class.
    
    Steve
    
    

    re .35.
    
    As a dyslexic I had to read .35 4-5 times before I found the
    differences in beleive.  To some of us, spelling checkers are the
    ultimate act of faith.  Sometime just for fun I walk through the
    letters one at a time just to prove that the suggestion is different
    from the written.  Many time I give up trying to find those
    differences.
    
    I've now read through this note 5 times and just noticed that believe
    is transposed.  
    
    I tend to transpose letters, numbers and syllables.  The number of self
    taught tricks I employ in the normal course of work boggles the mind.
    
    So, all of those readers who are offended at ones inability to spell,
    and who wax elequently upon their past educational experiences, should
    try to imagine the joy in spending the first few years of elementary
    school in the dummy class.
    
    
    

>          <<< Note 1759.35 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>

>	Dyslexia is thought to be hereditary, my father has it, both my 
>	brothers have it, and so do I.
>	It doesn't mean you spell badly, it means that when you write the word, 
>	the letters often come out in a different order.

There are lots of forms of dyslexia or, perhaps more properly, lots of verbal
disabilities that get lumped under the same categorization.
Some dyslexics can't spell, others mix up letter order, others invert letters
(d for b, and the like).

As an aside, there was a report on Notional Public Radio just this morning
about a discovery that a Canadian researcher has made about a simple
genetic encoding for the ability to create the past tense of a present
tense word and to create the plural of a regular, albeit nonsense, noun.
These people are stumped to fill in the sentences like
    "Today I walk, yesterday I ______."    (walked)
    "This is a picture of one wug.  It is part of a group of many ____." (wugs)

The pattern is hereditary, and occurs with a frequency expected of a single
gene trait.  The conclusion drawn is that language processing is a very 
diverse mental process, composed of a potentially large collection 
of separate, perhaps orthogonal, capabilities.

BUT, whatever the cause, organic, bad training, laziness, or so on,
people with deficient language skills should not be in a position
that requires critical communication skills.
We are perfectly comfortable selecting employees for technical skills,
but collateral skills are often assumed or not recognized as needed.
Just as we were all told in junior high when we asked "When am I ever gonna 
need this stuff?", written and oral communication IS part of EVERYBODY'S job.
We must evaluate people for their communication skills for jobs where
writing and speaking are an implicit, critical part of the job.

- tom]

re .36:

>                            One student teacher I had intended to graduate
>    and teach English and for my money she couldn't write a coherent
>    paragraph.

It took me a few tries to make this sentence out.  I didn't pause after "had."  

    re .39
    
    I'm worse than you!  I gave up on it, assuming that the author was
    setting himself up as a bad example.  :-)
    
    Seriously, there's another problem which bothers me.  As I grow older,
    my finger coordination between the two hands is not as good as it used
    to be.  Although I'm a touch typist, I frequently transpose letters on
    different hands.  I call it "dyslexia de los dedos (fingers)".  :-)
    
    Dick

    
    Re: .39
    
    Yes, it could have been less awkward.  No matter how proficient you
    get at this, you can always improve.
    
    Steve
    

    I am reading this string of notes with a bit of humor.  Is English the
    only language that has to have Spell Checkers?  I speak, read and write
    4 languages and have to admit that of the four (French, Spanish,
    Russian and English), I would choose something other than English as my
    native language.
    
    English is silly.  It's not phonetic for one thing, imprecise for
    another, ecclectic and non-sensical (think of all those silent gh
    letters that the Dutch printers gave us).
    
    Bottom line:  I used to be a real stickler for precise spelling and
    grammar.  Over the years I have mellowed.  English is a living
    language, and thus, subject to the vicissitudes of change.  And, face
    it folks, we computer-types have done more in the last 20 years years
    to change English than probably all the grammar teachers of the last
    century.
    
    Just my 2 cents
    
    Paul

>   Is English the only language that has to have Spell Checkers? 


	No, you can have an American spell checker too!



	Heather
	PS, there are spell checkers for other languages.

    
    Re: .42
    
    You have that right.  English, as are all "live" languages,
    is constantly changing and evolving.  For example, it was not
    until after the time of Shakespeare, for example, that spelling
    started to become standardized.  Any idea why?  It is quite simple
    actually.  With the advent of printing and the spread of literacy to
    other than just privileged classes the amount of written/printed
    material started to increase at an incredible rate.  The need to make
    writing standardized increased along with that.  Have any of you 
    tried to, with any speed at all, read and understand material that
    included a number of mispellings or worse that was intentionally
    printed using phonetical spelling.  It would take you days to decipher
    a short novel or report that you can read now in one sitting. 
    
    If you don't believe me, try reading something with a number of
    mispellings it in and see how long it takes you.
    
    Steve
    

    English is not imprecise, not a bit of it. It is a rich and colourful
    language.
    
    What has happened over the last few years, and I have to lay a lot of
    the blame on the American nation for this, is that it has been
    impoverished by invented words and phrases, where perfectly good ones
    already existed. Poorly educated people, or those who don't read much,
    will have a smaller vocabulary, and won't be able to call on just the
    right word for just the right situation. In our industry in particular,
    this is rife, and before you know it, the word or phrase is accepted. Yes,
    English is a living language, as indeed, they all are, but, it seems to
    me, that's it's slowly shrinking in richness and diversity. Worse,
    people seem quite happy to accept this, and the resultant ambiguities
    it inevitably produces in the written word.
    
    Laurie.

>    Bottom line:  I used to be a real stickler for precise spelling and
>    grammar.  Over the years I have mellowed.  English is a living
>    language, and thus, subject to the vicissitudes of change.  

I don't think we're talking about shifts in the meanings of words, 
or even the demise of the objective case of certain pronouns (who/whom).
We're talking about unclear, uncommunicative writing that results
from, among other things, lack of care in preparation and review and 
the demise of concern for the reader.

>    And, face
>    it folks, we computer-types have done more in the last 20 years years
>    to change English than probably all the grammar teachers of the last
>    century.

What have we computer types done?  If you're referring to things like
proliferation of jargon and acronyms, computer types have no monopoly
on them.  Many of the most computer-oriented of the computer types
have had to develop a real concern and understanding of the precision
required for accurate representation of knowledge (gotta get those then-elses
nested properly, after all).

- tom]

    Talking about learning disabilities, my wife is attending a College
    Board (Bored too!) Conference in Boston and the issue of learning
    disability has been a particularly important topic this time around. 
    The reason for this is the new federal law mandating that public and
    private institutions provide equal access to the disabled.  By disabled
    they don't just mean people in wheelchairs.  Under the law, the
    disabled term also encompasses the learning disabled.
    
    Pity poor Massachusetts, with the highest percentage of learning
    disabled students in the country by a good stretch.  Under this new
    law, according to my wife (who's been acting too much like Chicken
    Little, I tell her), schools and universities may have to provide their
    students which have a learning disabilty (viz. they have a medical opinion
    which says that they're learning disabled) with something like the
    following on the matter of standardized tests:
    
    - No time deadlines on their tests.  
    - They can skip taking these tests altogether because they can't do 
      multiple choice tests at the same level as other students.  
    - They can ask for their tests to be read to them.  
    - They can also ask to take the test in a room by themselves.
    
    Of course, you can see the potential problem that this presents not
    only to the professors but also to the institution that admits these
    students  After all, the potential lies in that learning disabled
    students may require extra tutoring, one-on-one teaching, and other
    expensive services which cash-strapped universities just can't give.
    No offense to the learning disabled but when one lives in a state that
    far outstrips the rest of the country in learning disabled students,
    one has to wonder whether it's in the water or whether there is too
    much laxity in determining what constitutes a genuine learning
    disability and what constitutes a genuine goof off.
    
    Alf
    

    
    Re: .45
    
    > Poorly educated people, or those who don't read much, will have a
    > smaller vocabulary, and won't be able to call on just the right
    > word for just the right situation. 
    
    Now, wait a minute.  This strikes me as being just a bit elitist.
    I venture to say that I read quite a lot but I think that either you
    or I would be at a definite disadvantage in the Eskimo culture where
    they have the following distinctly different words to describe what
    we collectively refer to as "snow":  ;^), Steve
    
    
    
    Drawn from the Inupiat Eskimo Dictionary by Webster and Zibell, and
    from Thibert's English-Eskimo Eskimo-English Dictionary:
    
    Eskimo      English                 Eskimo       English
    ---------------------------------+----------------------------
    apun        snow                 |  pukak        sugar snow
    apingaut    first snowfall       |  pokaktok     salt-like snow
    aput        spread-out snow      |  miulik       sleet
    kanik       frost                |  massak       snow mixed with water
    kanigruak   frost on a           |  auksalak     melting snow
                living surface       |  aniuk        snow for melting
    ayak        snow on clothes      |               into water
    kannik      snowflake            |  akillukkak   soft snow
    nutagak     powder snow          |  milik        very soft snow
    aniu        packed snow          |  mitailak     soft snow covering an
    aniuvak     snowbank             |               opening in an ice floe
    natigvik    snowdrift            |  sillik       hard, crusty snow
    kimaugruk   snowdrift that       |  kiksrukak    glazed snow in a thaw
                blocks something     |  mauya        snow that can be
    perksertok  drifting snow        |               broken through
    akelrorak   newly drifting snow  |  katiksunik   light snow
    mavsa       snowdrift overhead   |  katiksugnik  light snow deep enough
                and about to fall    |               for walking
    kaiyuglak   rippled surface      |  apuuak       snow patch
                of snow              |  sisuuk       avalanche

    

    A chestnut.  But not true.  English has all the same ways to describe
    snow; you had them there in your list.  By inspection I would venture
    a guess that the Eskimo language you are using constructs compound
    nouns in the same way that German does, by squashing simpler words
    together.
    
    English leaves the spaces in.  This does not mean that German has lots
    of words in it that English does not.
    
    What we *can* say is that a language evolved by people who spend a
    lot of time around snow is likely to be able to describe the
    variations with fewer phonemes, thus saving time.   They choose
    short root words for the important stuff.

    .47 ..... the insanity just doesn't stop, does it?  One wonders how
    many people in Mass. (and the country for that matter) will make their
    careers out of leaching off of the ever-increasing numbers of learning
    disabled.  I really believe we are in decline....how do we stop this
    crap anyhow?

re                      <<< Note 1759.50 by STRIKE::LENNARD >>>

>    .47 ..... the insanity just doesn't stop, does it?  One wonders how
>    many people in Mass. (and the country for that matter) will make their
>    careers out of leaching off of the ever-increasing numbers of learning
>    disabled.  I really believe we are in decline....how do we stop this
>    crap anyhow?

	I dunno, perhaps its being wrongly diagnosed, maybe there is
	more of a teaching disability ?  (-: 
========================================================================

	Anyway, just for fun here's another tangent - I have a 
"staying on the topic" disability;  so value that as a difference, OK ?  (-:

	There is some evidence that the structure, styles and (later)
rules of language are representations of how we think. 
Obviously we believe that what we say represents (approx) what we 
think about something.  I am referring here to the belief that the
development of a language's structure is determined by the
ways/patterns that people think IN.  Not surprisingly, some folks
might want to rearrange the order of nouns and verbs in a sentence,
there may be nothing WRONG with doing that.  "The cat sat on the mat" 
is more usual than  "The mat was sat upon by the cat".  I suspect there
is an obscure rule in English about the precedence animate objects 
that explains this - no matter. 

	One of the things that I am annoyed by {howze that ?} is the 
inaccurate use of  "all", "every" and "none"  - -  often this inverts 
meaning;

	All is not well in wherever    
		{implies that nothing is right there, this is rarely
		what the writer means} 

	Not all is well in wherever	
		{implies that something is wrong there, usually this
		is what people mean when they use the  "all is not..."} 

	R

    RE: .47
    
    What makes you think that Mass. far outstrips the nation in terms of
    learning disabled people and (if true) why?
    
    Larry

    One of my favorites which I think I finally pounded into my kid's
    heads through endless repetition was....
    
         - (They)  "I'm not done yet."
    
         - (Me)  "No, you're not finished yet.  People get finished; things
           in ovens get done."

    
    Re: .49
    
    Well I respectfully disagree.  Because we can make a translation does
    not mean that that translation has captured all the meaning included in
    the Eskimo word.  Witness the words in other languages for which there
    is no good translation into English.
    
    In any case that list was just meant to illustrate a point.  The
    point being that because the "poor" don't read much that does not
    mean that they have a somehow "inadequate" vocabulary.  They may
    "live" in quite a different world from the one the more literary
    among us live in and that different world could very likely have a
    very rich vocabulary unkown to us because we don't live there.
    
    Steve
    

>                     <<< Note 1759.53 by STRIKE::LENNARD >>>

>    One of my favorites which I think I finally pounded into my kid's
>    heads through endless repetition was....
    
>         - (They)  "I'm not done yet."
>    
>         - (Me)  "No, you're not finished yet.  People get finished; things
>           in ovens get done."

	Hah !
----------------------------------------------------------------------

	Here's one of my favorites;

	"Mike isn't here, is he ?"

Me:	"Yes"

	"Yes what ?"

Me:	"Yes, he is not here."

	This amuses me because the question asked in the second half
is whether or not the statement in the first half is true.  Whenever I 
hear this question I want to ask what the question REALLY is.  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

	"Would you like tea or coffee ?"

Me:	"Yes"

	"Yes what ?"

Me:	"Yes please;  I would like tea OR coffee, I would NOT like both."


	R

PS	I think that I would like to learn  E-prime,  just for fun.

    re -1 .... unfortunately, I don't think we can afford many of the
    one-on-one support "systems" you describe.  There is a limit to the
    public purse y'know.

Re .54:

>The point being that because the "poor" don't read much that does not mean that
>they have a somehow "inadequate" vocabulary.

.45 says "smaller", not "inadequate".
				/AHM

    Re .57:
    
>school.  And BTW, there have been many highly intelligent people who've
>had learning disabilities -- Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Nelson
>Rockefeller and (I believe) George Bush.
    
    Does the lack of certainty here center around whether the President has
    suffered from  a learning disibility, or whether the President is
    highly intelligent?  ;-)
    
    Sorry, I couldn't resist....
    
    Lloyd

    I have been read only for some time now... However, I can not let this
    topic go by without responding.
    
    RE: .38
    
    >BUT, whatever the cause, organic, bad training, laziness, or so on,
    >people with deficient language skills should not be in a position
    >that requires critical communication skills.
    >We are perfectly comfortable selecting employees for technical skills,
    >but collateral skills are often assumed or not recognized as needed.
    >Just as we were all told in junior high when we asked "When am I ever
    >gonna need this stuff?", written and oral communication IS part of
    >EVERYBODY'S job We must evaluate people for their communication skills 
    >for jobs where writing and speaking are an implicit, critical part of 
    >the job.
    
    So, what is be suggested here is, an employer should be able to turn
    down an application for employment, due to the fact a person has a
    disability called dislexia OR other "physical/mental challenge". This
    is surely a step (or more) back in time.
    
    I remember being in lower grade school (k-6). Let me see if I can list
    the "junk" I had to go through.
    
    	o	Special reading groups
    	o	FORCED to write with my right hand
    	o	Endless visits by a school "head shrink"
    		(in the same classes as my friends)
    	o	repeating grade "because I was left handed"
    	o	being written off by teachers and finally 
    		my mother as "a looser, who will just not
    		amount to anything, 'cause he can't read
    		or write like the right handed kids."
    	
    When I was in high School, I was finally diagnosed as dislexic. But,
    not before my mother was totally convensed I would amount to nothing.
    
    When I enlisted in the Army, I "aced" all the machanical type tests 
    and did rather poorly on most tests that involved lots of reading. Not
    because I couldn't read it, but because it took longer for me to read
    the material, than there was time for the test(s). Once in the Army, I
    was given an opportunity to take that same tests, without a timer. I
    aced every test.
    
    Since starting my career (post military), I have found that I am able
    to read most documentation and other large written material by typing
    them into a file. I find my ability to type 50-60 WPM (approximately)
    gives me the tool to read by way of "brain to fingers" rather than
    "brain to eyes". 
    
    The moral of this story is... DON'T write someone off for a disability
    they may have. The disability is merely a challenge. Through
    experimentation, these people can and will find the method by which
    they can contribute to the community and their employer. 
    
    With the proper tools, everyone can be a contributor. 
    
    The point made in a previous reply, concerning schools and there single
    approach to learning. It is wrong to teach this way. Give the student
    the tools and the chance to explore ways which make learning easier for
    them. If learning to read means typing on a keyboard, into a computer,
    give those kids the keyboards to use.
    
    For these large tests (SATs, etc..), why are they timed tests. Does
    completing these tests in a predetermined timeframe make a student more
    knowledgeable or just quicker? Quickness does not always mean accurate!
    
    Well, enough of this..! I just hope some of you, would be "learning
    disabled" (mentally challenged) bashers, learn to understand that
    everyone in this world has some type of physical/mental challenge. Some 
    kind of physical/mental handicap... PLEASE, do not be so quick to judge
    someone, just because they might spell a word wrong now and then or
    they might use (what is perceived as) poor grammar..!
    
    Later..!!
    
    Bob G.
    

    I don't want to appear insensitive, but I think we are off the track.
    
    As I recall, this memo started with the discussion of an advertisement
    that had spelling errors.
    
    My feeling is that if you choose the field of copy writing, and are a
    known poor speller (for WHATEVER reason), you should take the necessary
    steps to ensure that the copy you prepare is spelled correctly and
    meets the appropriate standards for grammar.
    
    I doubt if one person was responsible for proof reading the ad in
    question.
    
    The point is, Digital does itself no benefit in producing poorly
    written external communications!  We have the worst quality control
    that I have ever seen... I think it has to do with our matrix
    organizations... NOONE has ultimate control or responsibility for
    producing first class materials.
    
    fwiw!

    
    Re: .59
    
    In the context of .45 "smaller" can clearly be understood to
    mean inadequate.  My point is that it sounds elitist to me.
    You don't need to agree.
    
    Steve
    

    re: .61
    
    Without prejudice, as ther lawyers say...
    
    1) I am grateful to those who 'forced' me into writing with my right
    hand... I do not smudge!
    
    2) It should go without saying that a person with a 'challenge' as you call
    it, having the overall value of being human, has the same overall value
    as anyone else who is human, but...
    
        I would not watch a newscaster with serious difficulty speaking,
        nor would I sit through a sales presentation by such a person
    
        I would not want the lifeguards at the pool to be paralyzed folks
    
        I dislike dealing with deaf people over the phone
    
        Blind bus drivers make me uncomfortable
    
    There are jobs for which we are suited and jobs for which we are worse
    than nothing.  While any individual instance of teeny vocabulary and
    spelling incapacity may be countered by others, an organization
    publishing material with mistakes and poor grammar is doing itself, its
    customers, and those who might have become its customers a dis-service.
    If you can't read or write accurately and well, then try a career in
    something other than publicity.  [I, for example, have long since given
    up my dream of becoming a diplomat.]
    
    3) Tests such as SAT tests are timed because, like it or not, life is
    timed.  To use your military example, when faced with a combat
    situation requiring the reading of a map, I'll bet my money and bodily
    parts on the faster reader.  Speed counts in industry too.  In
    competitive situations, customer response situations, and others.  The
    intent of the SAT tests is to provide a measure of greater liklihood of
    success in University.  The yardstick may be flawed - some excellent
    people may not make it, and others such as myself get in because
    there's no maturity test - but!!!  Overall it works.
    
    
    

	I'd simply like to say that I believe any official communications
	from Digital, whether they be letters, advertisements, handouts,
	presentations, press releases, articles, or whatever, should be
	impeccably spelled, grammatical, and inoffensive. We are one of
	the leading companies in the world, and one of our main strengths
	is - or should be - high quality in everything we do. A single typo
	or sloppy phrase can mar that image.

	Internally - I always make an extra effort to get things right.
	Not many people will spell check an internal memo, or go back to
	delete and rewrite a word that's spelled wrong. I will. Maybe it's
	just foolish pride, maybe I'm striking a small blow for "defect-free"
	communication. 

	But not everyone has the same strengths. If everyone just does their
	best, aware that poorly spelled or expressed communication hampers
	everyone who receives it, then we will be that much more of a "quality"
	oufit.

	Remember some of the classic disastrous orders of military history,
	such as the Charge of the Light Brigade or the Muddled Order of
	Chickamauga? Each was caused by failure to take the time and effort
	to make sure that the recipient actually understood the intended
	message, and not something similar but different. A lot of our
	internal communication reminds me of those orders.

	/Tom

  I think .64 (Don) and .65 (Tom) have it right.

  1) There is no way that difficulty in spelling, reading, writing, walking,
     talking, whatever makes anyone less [or more] valuable as a person.

  2) There are usually distinct requirements for specific jobs and if those
     requirements are not met, the person is not suited for that job.

  3) Any compromise of #2 for political, social, or financial reasons serves
     only to lower the standard previously maintained.

  Note that #2 & #3 apply across the board and the nature of the requirements
  vary in accordance with the positions involved (a h/w engineer may need a
  different set of skills to a C programmer, who is different again to a PR
  person).

  People can choose to lower any standard but there is always a price to be
  paid.  It is also far easier to lower a standard than raise one.


  Re .48,.49,.54,.59,.63

  The original phrase in .45 was not "poor people" but "poorly educated people".
  You can be poorly educated whilst being very rich.  You can be excellent with
  one language but still poorly educated in another.  Alternatively, a person
  can be poorly educated in one subject (a specific language) but capable of
  teaching to doctorate level in another (maths).  One measure which helps
  determine the degree to which a language has been mastered is the extent of
  the vocabulary possessed by the person.  This is *not* a judgement on the
  overall "value" of the person, merely qualifying one *tiny* facet of their
  ability, the one that happens to be under discussion at the time.
  
  Elitism doesn't come into it ... unless you bring it in to blur the issue.

  Frank

    the language of the tongue of my mother was not English, but that never 
    stoppd me from learning English good, and becomming an excellant in 
    English communication skills, both in writing and speaken English.
    
    if every one else work hard at it too , they can do it too, it dont 
    matter what their obtecals are. if some one like me can be this good 
    at English communication skills, you can do , to.
    
    thank you,
    regard
    /nasser
    

>              <<< Note 1759.61 by BSS::GROVER "The CIRCUIT_MAN" >>>
>                       -< Physical & Mental challenges >-
>    RE: .38
>    
>    >BUT, whatever the cause, organic, bad training, laziness, or so on,
>    >people with deficient language skills should not be in a position
>    >that requires critical communication skills.
>    
>    So, what is be suggested here is, an employer should be able to turn
>    down an application for employment, due to the fact a person has a
>    disability called dislexia OR other "physical/mental challenge". This
>    is surely a step (or more) back in time.

No, that's not what I said.  I don't care if you are "challenged" IF YOU CAN
SUCCEED DESPITE THE CHALLENGE.
If you're a poor speller who wants to be a copywriter, then you'd better 
demonstrate the ability to use a dictionary efficiently to defeat that
problem (or use an equivalent solution).
If you're a paraplegic who wants to be a copywriter, then your challenge
is probably irrelevant to your ability to  do the job and it isn't 
a factor at all.

What I said was that communications skills are more a part of our daily
jobs than many people recognize or admit.  Selecting and judging people 
on the ability to communicate is valid where communication is important,
and for many in our lines of work, it is.

- tom powers]

Poor spelling doesn't equate to poor writing.  I agree that proofreaders
should be good spellers, but what's wrong with a poor speller *who happens
to be a good writer* writing ad copy?  Surely the copy should be proofread
regardless of the writer's spelling ability.

It's also true (as .38 states) that many jobs here at DEC require good
communications skills, but does that mean that a poor speller shouldn't
be a software engineer (who may be required to write specs) or a salesman
(who may have to write proposals)?  If spelling is important, the document
should be proofread *regardless of the writer's spelling ability*.

    As the author of .45 I'd like to say that Frank Bell is correct. I said
    "poorly educated", not poor, and I made no judgement value at all. The
    notion of "inadequate" was neither implied, nor intended. As it
    happens, inadequate is a relative term, and I can think of many
    situations where a limited vocabulary would indeed, be inadequate.
    
    As regards .67; a joke, surely.
    
    Laurie.

    C'mon .67, we're all waiting.  You're joking aren't you?
    
    .70, I disagree very strongly!!  If you want to be in the written
    communications business in any way, you had better be a good speller.
    Maybe not perfect, but good enough that looking up a word in the
    dictionary is an exception, period.  You should also NOT be dependent
    on any kind of automated spelling checker.

    re .72.  I figured it wouldn't be too long before "speed reading" would
    show up in the discussion.  As a former speed reading instructor in
    Junior College, let me say that:
    
         - It consists of several techniques, not just one.
    
         - It must be continually practiced to maintain proficiency.
    
         - Words are not "pronounced".  To a large extent, they are "seen".
    
         - It is absolutely, definitely, indisputably NOT for people who
           have a reading problem.  You should already be a competent
           reader before spending money on any such program.
    
    During my tenure at this college, I can't tell you how many times I
    was approached to conduct private tutoring sessions for various high
    school juniors and seniors who finally were becoming frightened at
    their inability to read as they looked ahead at college.  It was a
    tough sell to convince their parents that speed reading was not the
    solution.

    Re Gerald (.57)
    
    > This doesn't make sense.  It may be that Massachusetts has the highest
    > percentage of students *diagnosed* as LD because Massachusetts has been
    > a center of research and treatment of LDs since the 1930's.  In any case,
    > the new federal law should correct this discrepancy.
    
    Implicit in my statement is the fact that they're *diagnosed* (to use
    your own term) so I'll gloss over that point.  As to Massachusetts
    being the center of research and treatment of LDs, that's another
    issue.  In this case, my wife is not the first person to point out that
    Massachusetts has such an inordinately high number of LD's that it
    leads one to suspect whether too many kids are being diagnosed as LD
    for reasons entirely unrelated to being learning disabled.  A good
    friend of ours who develops science and math school curricula for the 
    Boston public school system and teaches at a Cambridge teacher's
    college made the same observation to us a few years ago, much before
    Congress passed the Americans with disabilities act.  His focus,
    moreover, was more directed at the impact it has on those kids which
    are labeled LD.  In general, he argued that the impact is more
    destructive in that the label changes the kids' views and expectations
    of themselves and others without being balanced out or superseded by
    the positive influence of the special training they will get.
    
    > Do you think that blind students shouldn't have readers and that deaf
    > students shouldn't have interpreters?  Perhaps you think that it was
    > better in the good old days when blind people sold pencils.  Without
    > special accomodations, many intelligent LD students will drop out of
    > school.  And BTW, there have been many highly intelligent people who've
    > had learning disabilities -- Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Nelson
    > Rockefeller and (I believe) George Bush.
     
    Before I reply to this part, I'll just say that I'll gloss over your
    histrionics, such as the "good old days when blind people sold pencils",
    and get to the arguments or, rather, your apparent unwillingness to
    pick out the implicit arguments I've made.  
    
    As before, I never even implied that blind students shouldn't have
    their tests read to them.  My wife's comment was that non-blind
    students could require that the test be read to them, a comment which,
    by the way, I didn't take all that seriously since students are
    notorious for not wanting the exam proctor to be anywhere near them as
    they're taking an exam.  I have no problem with special dispensations
    to LD students.  I do have a problem when people tend to abuse the
    system for whatever reason (parents unwilling to accept that junior
    doesn't study hard or goofs off during school, or junior refusing to
    confront his personal responsibility towards his schooling, or
    whatever) and the fact that Massachusetts leads the country in the
    percentage of LD students can only lead me to strongly suspect that the
    system is being abused.  In the end, those that really deserve the
    access to the system will wind up being shafted by those who didn't.
    
    Alf
             

    Remember the old joke about your job application? When you came to the
    box labeled "SEX" did you answer yes, or often or none of your business?
    True story:: my mother had foster children living with her. She did her
    best while they were there to get them to do home work etc. but
    unfortunately the pattern had been set. One of the girls filled out an
    application at the local nursing home for a job as an aid and asked if
    they really wanted to know if she had sex? 

    Hypothetical situation - A teen comes along and describes something
    as, " like OH wow man like it was radical bad, ya hear me?"  My answer
    is, "Well of course I hear you, you stupid little s***. I'm only 3 feet 
    away from you but what the hell are you talking about."

    What is the point of these two examples? Reading, writing, AND speaking 
    skills must not only include the ability to spell correctly but also 
    the ability to comprehend what is being read and said and to make the 
    intent of your written or spoken word coherent to another person.

    Again, I must make my claim that exceptions can/must be made for a truly 
    disabled person, be they dyslexic or any other mental or physical 
    disability. Aid can be provided whether it is a spell check program 
    or a reader for the blind or <fill in your favorite>.  But it does 
    not excuse the disregard that non-disabled persons, students, parents,
    teachers, or co-workers show to others by their continued refusal to
    apply even a minimum of effort to speak and write coherently.

    ok, i must admit i had a little bit my tongue in my sheek when i wrote 
    .67, but all i wanted just to say that i was good in communication 
    skill in spite of that my original language was no English, and so 
    any one who brought up using English should be as well at least as me too. 
    it is no execusse.
    i agree with the previouse callers too.

re: .52 
    
>    What makes you think that Mass. far outstrips the nation in terms of
>    learning disabled people and (if true) why?
    
    <only slightly tongue-in-cheek>
    Simple observation convinces me...people in Mass. don't (can't?) read
    traffic signs!  It's evidence enough of a major learning problem.
    
    Back to the topic...
    
    I am responsible for sending letters to customers...not writing them,
    mind you...just sending them.  Many of the letters that come across my desk
    are more often than not totally appalling. I am embarrassed to let such 
    poor copy leave the company.  I send the offending letter back to its 
    author for reworking.  I also agree with a previous reply...make the people 
    who write this garbage ACCOUNTABLE.
    
    
    

re .73:

Shakespeare couldn't spell for $#!+.  Of course, at the time English spelling
hadn't been standardized, so that was acceptable.  But I don't think you'd
have to look very far to find masterful modern-day writers who spell poorly.
That's why there are proofreaders.

re .75:

>                                                          His focus,
>    moreover, was more directed at the impact it has on those kids which
>    are labeled LD.  In general, he argued that the impact is more
>    destructive in that the label changes the kids' views and expectations
>    of themselves and others without being balanced out or superseded by
>    the positive influence of the special training they will get.

If a student is diagnosed as LD and is then thrown into an inadequate
special education program (such as that of the Boston public schools),
of course it's destructive.  If a student has been told throughout his
school career that he's dumb or he's not trying hard enough (though he's
been trying much harder than his classmates), and he's diagnosed as LD
*and given an appropriate education as the law requires*, his self-esteem
will rise and *he will learn*.

Do you have any basis for your suspicions that the system is being abused?
Do you know of any non-LD students who've been diagnosed as LD?  Why would
anyone want to be labeled LD if he's not?

    
    Just a thought but if it is true that MA has a very high number of LD
    students could it be that not only are they diagnosed there but that
    they GO there because MA tries harder to help them?
    
    Steve
    

re .80:

I don't know if people move *to* Massachusetts for special ed, but I know
someone who moved *within* Massachusetts to get her son into a system with
better special ed.

        Re: .80

        I have heard of people moving from New Hampshire to
        Massachusetts to get better help for disabled children, but I
        also know a couple who moved from Massachusetts to New York
        because they could get better help for their child from New York
        State than from Massachusetts.
        
        I don't know if the extra treatement in New York State is
        because of a particular disability, or if the accumulation in
        Massachusetts is of New England families that don't want to
        leave New England.

        					B.J.

    	re .77
    
    	Well, I'm glad you cleared that up!

    	The concentration of LD in Mass is because they are more
    	liberal in their classification of LD.

    ok, iam giving up, what is LD stand for?  "Low Drive" ? any way this
    is a rebuff that we in masshuesstutes are LD, see how many schools
    we have here:
    MIT, Harvard, Northeasetrn univ. ,Boston Univ. Tufts univ. , 
    Univ. of Masseshuuestues (campuses in Amherset, lowell, and Boston) , 
    Bunkers hill community college, Fisher junior college,   middlesex 
    community college, Newbury colleg, northern Essex community college, 
    Babson college, Bentley colleg, Boston College,
    Bradford college, Brandeis univ., Central new england college of
    technology, Clark univ., college of the holly cross, Eastern Nazarine
    college, Emerson College, Emmanuel college, Fitchburg state college,
    Farmingham state college, Hamshire college, Lesley college, Merrimack
    college, Mount Ida college, Pine Manor College, Regis college, Salem
    state college, Simmons college, Suffolk univ., Welleslty college,
    Wentworth institute of technology, Worcestor polytechnic Institute,
    Worcester state college.
    
    also this prrof that we in massaschuttes are very smart and know
    more thinks than any one else in the planet we are living in . 
    so please dont say we are LD people or whatever, because we are not
    LD's .
    thank you very much.
    byu.
    /nasser
    
    

    Just in case anyone is tempted to fall into this "trap" again, let me
    say here that Mr. Nasser Abbasi is a _very_ witty Arab-American fellow
    (I gather he's an Engineer Type up ZKO-way), many of whose notes I've
    had the real pleasure of reading in this and other conferences.  FWIW,
    I think he's "yanking our chains" in a way that I would be very
    challenged to do in any language not my own native tongue...  I know a
    couple of other languages, but would have NO prayer of pulling off what
    he's done here before -- and is trying to do again!
    
    BTW Nasser, you forgot the Unimassity of Versachusetts!!  :-)
    
    LD == Low Drive indeed.  Likely Dumb?  I think NOT!!  :-)
    

    RE: .85  by STAR::ABBASI

    >ok, iam giving up, what is LD stand for?  "Low Drive" ? 
    
    I believe they are using LD as an acronym for "Learning Disabled". 
    Special education programs for children determined to be learning
    disabled, or in some way physically or mentally handicapped, come under
    Mass. General Laws chapter 766.  
    
    Within the state, some communities are better than others when it comes
    to funding these programs.  They are mandated by the state, but funded
    by local property taxes allocated to schools.  I've known people to
    choose their residence based on the level of support for ch. 766
    programs.
    
    

	re .70:

>Poor spelling doesn't equate to poor writing.  I agree that proofreaders
>should be good spellers, but what's wrong with a poor speller *who happens
>to be a good writer* writing ad copy?  Surely the copy should be proofread
>regardless of the writer's spelling ability.

	Excellent point! Yes, if high quality if required (no defects
	tolerated) then proper quality procedures should be applied.
	In my poor understanding of quality, there are two approaches
	which can be combined:

	(1) Don't make any mistakes.

	(2) Check for any mistakes and correct them.

	Doing both may waste some time, but on the other hand it gives
	you extra assurance that you have got it right. Mind you, I
	wouldn't want the proofreader making corrections without
	consulting back weith the author!

>It's also true (as .38 states) that many jobs here at DEC require good
>communications skills, but does that mean that a poor speller shouldn't
>be a software engineer (who may be required to write specs) or a salesman
>(who may have to write proposals)?

	Intriguing. A software engineer may be a poor speller when
	writing specs (and comments), but what about code? If (s)he
	makes "spelling" mistakes there, each one is a bug. Good software
	engineers don't create many bugs.

	Does this imply that good software engineers, after all, do
	write pretty accurate prose, or that coding and writing prose
	are such different skills that you can be excellent at one
	while being lousy at the other? Or is it more to do with what
	you ***think*** is important?

	/Tom

    ref .88
>	writing specs (and comments), but what about code? If (s)he
>	makes "spelling" mistakes there, each one is a bug. Good software
>	engineers don't create many bugs.
    
    but if you make spelling mistake in code , compiler will scream at
    you and you go fix it untill compiler scream no more . 
    
    iam for example, a briiliant programmer, but make those rare spelling
    errors when coding, but the compiler tells me so and i fix it. no
    problem.
    
    i tink it is more important how a programer tink than spell, i tink.
    
    thanks you.
    /nasser

    Re .79:
    
    > Do you know of any non-LD students who've been diagnosed as LD?  Why
    > would anyone want to be labeled LD if he's not?
    
    The examples I know of aren't people who wanted to be labeled "learning
    disabled" but are people who were incorrectly labeled by teachers or
    other persons in the system.  I have heard several Mensa members
    complain that they were labeled "learning disabled" for one reason or
    another.  A common reason is that they were so bored in class, they
    didn't pay attention and so the teacher thought they were stupid.  One
    person told me last weekend how, in elementary school, they would read
    ahead several stories while other children were taking turns reading
    out loud, and then when the teacher called upon them to read, they
    didn't know where the class was in the book.
    
    Another problem is that people who are merely dyslexic are labeled as
    retarded.
    
                                      
    				-- edp

>		 Witness the words in other languages for which there
>   is no good translation into English.


I don't suppose that you have ever considered that there is no "word" for the
translation in your example, because those who speak English have no need of 
that word ?

There have been many instances of a word from another language being adopted 
into English as and when a need is found.

Consider also those languages that adopt English words because there is no
equivalent in that language.



Human speech is constantly evolving.  Languages are gradually merging.  It is
only the arrogance of those die-hards who refuse to accept change, that may
go towards slowing this evolution.


Meanwhile, given that there is a currently "accepted" right way to spell words
in any language (this is, of course, evolving as well), then if your job is 
such that you should know and use that "right" way to spell and construct that 
language, then as part of your job, and as part of the contract you agreed to,
then it goes without saying that "inventive" or "phonetic" spelling is not
good enough.  Copywriting is one such job.

> Do you have any basis for your suspicions that the system is being abused?
> Do you know of any non-LD students who've been diagnosed as LD?  Why would
> anyone want to be labeled LD if he's not?
    
    As I said (for the 3rd time), my suspicion is only based on
    Massachusetts's position on the LD per capita sweepstakes.  Just as I
    would be suspicious if I found out that per capita cancer rates in the
    Cape are higher than elsewhere in Massachusetts (they are, by the way). 
    Now, if the problem isn't due to an external source (like, say, a nuke
    nearby) then the problem may be due to the collection of data and its
    sorting.  My guess is that Massachusetts is much too liberal in
    designating students as LD and that, by doing so, could bring on
    problems in the school system such as 1) too many students who
    shouldn't be LD crowding out real LD students and 2) too many students
    who feel stigmatized by the label and, in net terms, are probably more
    hampered than helped.  
    
    According to this friend curricula developer, he says that there are
    many kids who are not LD but who are listed as such.  As I said before
    (and for the 3rd time again), some of these students or, very possibly,
    their parents don't want to admit that junior is lazy or a goof off or
    just plain slow so, instead, they sweeten the pill by making them seem
    as if they were LD.  My guess is that a lot of pushy parents catalyze
    this sort of thing and that, in the end, it harms their kids even more
    than facing up to reality and exercising their duty as a parent to
    straighten out the kid and stop trying to hide the real problem behind a
    veneer of psychological mumbo jumbo.
    
    Re Nasser
    
    >  ok, i must admit i had a little bit my tongue in my sheek
    
    Shouldn't that be "tongue in sheik"?  8-|'
    
    Re Steve (.80)
    
    > they GO there because MA tries harder to help them?
    
    It's come here....come....and if you don't believe it, ask Click and
    Clack.....
    
           

When I moved to Mass, I noticed some things: (among a lot of others :-)

  * There are an awfull lot on mental institutions around.

  * The little pie chart on the back of the Mass income tax instructions
    that tries to tell you where all that money went includes 45 cents
    on the dollar for "Mental Health and Human Services" or something
    very similar.

Now this leads me to believe that Mass is full of lunitics or the prevailing
political winds blow kindly on people with these types of disabilities.

I'm going to have a very hard time believing that the majority of people
receiving benefits from all this didn't start out somewhere else.

    
     <<< Note 1759.94 by ELWOOD::LANE >>>
    >Now this leads me to believe that Mass is full of lunitics 
    
    can you beleive this guy ?
    
    We in masseshutess are not lunitics ! PLEASE !!! 
    
    and we can prove it too ! (not being a lunitics , that is ) 
    
    /Nasser
    

re .94:

A lot of people will tell you that you have to be crazy to live in Mass.

    It would really be interesting to know how many Massachusetts
    bureaucrats/educators/administrators are dependent for their
    livelihood on an ever-increasing headcount of LD students.
    
    Betch'a you'd be shocked.
    

re .54

>I don't suppose that you have ever considered that there is no "word" for the
>translation in your example, because those who speak English have no need of 
>that word ?

Let's turn it around.  There are words in English with no equivalent in
Spanish.  For example, "compromise".  In fact the false cognate
"comprometirse" refers to commitment, not compromise.  Does that mean that
Hispanics have no need for "compromise"?  :-)

Dick

>    We in masseshutess are not lunitics ! PLEASE !!! 
>    
>    and we can prove it too ! (not being a lunitics , that is ) 

Is this that old "We're not crazy and we got the papers to prove it" gag?

    re: .99
    
    No.
    
    It simply means there is no such word as "lunitic"
    
    Ther IS such a word as lunatic.
    
    Gregg

RE .89

 > 
 >     Or the cars (Chrysler?) that have an idiot light on US models that say
 > 
 > 				"Check Gages"

    My Funk & Wagnalls lists "gage" as a valid alternate spelling of
    "gauge". 

    RE: 1759.97
    
    >    Betch'a you'd be shocked.
    
    Not in the least...!
    
    Before moving to Colorado, my wife worked in the "Spec. Ed."
    department, for the Marlboro School System. The appointed head 
    of this department was the ???-in-law of a political figure. I
    understand that this individual is no longer involved with the
    Department, but it brings up the question of.... How many of these
    situations are there, in the special education program, in the state of
    Mass-distruction (Massachusetts).?
    
    It is a day in the life of Massachusetts..!
    
    Bob G.
    

    This string does make me wonder if someone in Massachusetts government
    isn't growing fat at this trough.
    
    A while back (here in Georgia); I can remember a family fighting with
    a school district because they had a child that had been diagnosed as
    learning disabled by several professionals, and the school district
    said they couldn't "afford" to provide the services this child would
    require.
    
    The family took it to court and won because their child wasn't
    suffering from a learning disability so severe that the child couldn't
    be expected to eventually fit into the mainstream. The school district
    had to come up with the additional assistance the child needed.
    
    As someone else mentioned, unless there is something in the water
    in Massachusetts, it's difficult to understand why that state would
    have such a large ratio of students being labeled LD.  Massachusetts
    is a densely populated state; but it is by no means the state with
    the highest population.
    
    Karen
    
    
    

    	There was a memo passed around certain groups explaining that
    	all the layoffs were in an effort to eliminate redundancy that 
    	occured because of the consolidation of the digital service 
    	organizations.

	It's signed:

	Bud Keating
	Digital Services Vice President

	Ray Wood 
	Digital Services Vice President

    Rathole city.. Valuing Learning Disabilities, Massachussets bashing..
    
    It's true that the language is evolving.  Having made a study of 
    Jeffersonian correspondence, I was amazed at the number of terms
    then used in ordinary written communications that are no longer in use. 
    Whether those words are a real loss to the culture is beyond me. 
    Having fewer terms available to describe concepts is probably a loss,
    but I do notice new terms arriving on a regular basis.. like 
    'rathole', a truly gnarly concept... ;-)  
    
    I've heard it said that it's possible to communicate with a
    vocabulary of only 700 words.  However, I don't think it's Digital's
    job to facilitate language death by employing near-illiterates.
    And if an employee's position requires memo writing, I don't see
    spelling and vocabulary and grammar testing as a bad thing. 
    Programmers have to demonstrate proficiency in the languages and
    operating systems they develop on.. why should other employees be
    exempt ???
    
    karl

    A programmer that can write code but not clear English
    is no good to me.   Sorry, but it's as important (maybe more 
    so) for the programmer to explain to future programmers
    how the code works, as it is for the programmer to explain
    to the compiler.  Programming *is* explanation, quite
    simply.
    
    This means (a) code in which the "words" of the program
    make some sort of sense (b) code which is adequately
    commented in some well-known language -- here, that means
    English or at least American.
    

    
    Re: .106 totally true.
    
    There is no excuse for bad spelling. Code needs to be understandable in
    order to be maintainable. This means sufficient comments with good
    spelling and which follow grammatical rules in whichever language.
    
    As for "gage" vs. "guage", it is my belief that the spelling of a lot
    of English words has been simplified for our America cousins. I know
    that quite a bit of what has gone before has been a p**s take but I
    would bet serious amounts of money that an even larger proportion is
    due to poor educational standards and laziness on the part of the noter.
    
    Chris

    
     I could not agree more with Dave and Chris.
    
     Please Note that Some computer languages seem to enhance
     readability, for example, it is well know that ADA is more readable than
     say C or BLISS or SNOBOL. Since That was one of the goals set while
     designing ADA.
    
     Software is read many, many times . it is written once.
     When one is writing code, they should write with the view that it 
     will be read by others , not just by them !
    
     Software Maintenance costs so much money, this is a very important
     issue for DEC, in particular since DEC is becomming more of a 
     Software Company.
    
     /Nasser
    

    
    Nasser,
    
    I assume from your name that you are not a native English speaker,
    however your writing style should make the majority of noters in this
    conference more than a little ashamed.
    
    Chris
    

Is it really necessary for programmers to be good spellers?  I've had to
maintain code written by good spellers and bad spellers, and I've never
had problems understanding a comment because of a spelling error.

Continuing with the learning-disabilities-in-Mass rathole, I'd like to
advance another possible explanation for the alleged high rate of LD
students in Mass.  Mass has had a law for many years that requires
an appropriate education for LD students.  Such a law was passed at the
Federal level only recently.  I think that this, combined with the
fact that Mass has been a center of research on LDs since the 1930's,
might account for the high rate of diagnosis.

    Re .110   A lot of non-natives are far better trained and far better
    English speakers than the illiterates our U.S. school system is turning
    out.  Maybe in the long run they'll help turn us around.
    
    Y'know, in France they actually have a national committee of academics
    (I forget what it is called) that controls how the language is used,
    at least from an official standpoint.  Maybe we could use the same.
    
    ...but we in Digital also contribute.  Some times I think that if I
    hear about "world-class" products or "delighted" customers one more time
    I'm gonna upchuck.                                            

    	What's wrong with a DELIGHTED customer?  Are they the ones who
    	butter the whole roll instead of one bite at a time?

    Boy this is a busy topic....

    Yes, the U.S. should improve on the education system. BUT, adding yet
    another bureaucracy to the political process is NOT the way to
    accomplish this.

    What this country needs to do is decrease its support of programs that
    encourage people to remain uneducated/dependent, and increase support
    for educating people out of those situations. Educate this country out
    of literacy problems, educate this country out of learning disability
    problems.

    My hat is off to the countries who hold their teachers in high regard,
    who insure they have the tools/resources to educate, who pay teachers
    according to their own education level, rather than according to whim
    of politicians who make far to much money (that is another issue).

    The U.S. needs to begin placing available funding toward programs that
    emphasize positive values, instead of negative.

    To make this relevant to the topic, this would help students to do
    their absolute best in the areas of spelling, reading, etc. 

    To drift off for just a bit... My two oldest kids are constantly
    getting notes in their progress reports, that they "have poor study
    skills".... Well, I use to have the same problem in school.... BUT you
    know, I don't see anyone in academia developing a semester course which
    teaches students what good study skills are. 

    My point is, if students are pointed in the right direction (no force
    required), they will (normally) react positively. This goes for
    spelling, reading or any other subject... If studying wasn't the
    parents' strong point, while they were in school, this weakness gets
    passed on.

    OH, and the use of tools (spell checker and such) to assist in
    learning, is not "badness". I find my using spell checkers, helps me to
    realize correct spelling of a word, and usually do not spell it wrong
    twice.
    
    You folks living outside the U.S. must be howling when you read this
    type of stuff.
    
    For a more positive U.S. attitude.!
    
    Bob G.
    

    RE: .101 by STAR::BECK
    
>>     Or the cars (Chrysler?) that have an idiot light on US models that say
>> 
>> 				"Check Gages"

>    My Funk & Wagnalls lists "gage" as a valid alternate spelling of
>    "gauge". 
    
    In fact, it's the required spelling in U. S. MilSpec documentation.
    

	Little Oxford Dicionary.....


	gage  pledge,security;challenge    
	

	So, if I saw a manual asking me to check the gage, I would 
	assume I hade to check security.

	
	Isn't language fun!

	Heather

    
    Re: MilSpec. You bet me to it. It has something to do with the average
        intelligence/literacy of the Marines in particular (I'm not biased
        an American told me this).
    
    Re: Non-native English speakers in English speaking countries.
    
    I've worked in America on a multi-national project. Two children of a
    French colleague went to a local school, these children were in the
    5-11 age group.
    
    They were top of their respective classes in English.
    
    I think I would be concerned about the education of my children if this
    had been a school in my own country.
    
    Chris.
                                 

    RE: .118
    
    >There's a  story  (Urban Myth) going around in Germany that the manuals
    >for some of the US weapons systems here are in the form of comic books,
    >mainly because of the poor literary skills in the military.
    
    Not really a myth.  I've seen an example.  Even the "New Look"
    documentation that we did at Raytheon for the Patriot system was
    derided as "comic books", but they were not quite down to that level. 
    The "New Look" milspec required a lot of illustrations and short
    sentences with words that were easy to understand.  It was useful
    experience to learn these techniques for documentation.  I always say,
    if you want a book that any idiot can understand, get an idiot like me
    to write it.  ;-)
    
    We had an interesting thing happen with the Patriot manuals.  When we
    started, we were told to write for a 5th grade reading level.  Later we
    were told to upgrade to a 7th grade level.  It seems that the poor
    economy was providing them with better educated recruits.
    

    re: .120
    
    Maybe the upgraded manuals were for the EXPORT market.
    
    
    
    Sorry...
    
    
    I just couldn't help myself.
    
    

    RE: .121 "Didn't Israel, Saudia A., etc buy Patriots?"
    
    >Maybe the upgraded manuals were for the EXPORT market.
    
    The EXPORT market came much later.  We were instructed to revise our
    target reading level because the Army was getting better educated
    recruits due to the shortage of job opportunities.
    

    
    Re: .120
    
    >Not really a myth.  I've seen an example.  Even the "New Look"
    >documentation that we did at Raytheon for the Patriot system was
    >derided as "comic books", but they were not quite down to that level. 
    
    I heard about this problem some time ago and whenever it comes up
    it is usually in the context of deriding the reading ability of the
    troops, but there may be another way to look at it.  IF the
    "comic book" format sufficiently explains what the reader needs to
    know and it is easier to use than whatever its predecessor was, then the
    reader isn't the one who needs deriding.  Software per se is not the
    only place where we need to be listening to the customer. If we insist
    on providing documentation in a format that dissatisfies the customer
    then we are the ones with a lesson to learn.  People read these things
    only because they have a job to do and simply need information. It
    should be done in the simplest and easiest way for the reader to use it.
    If a simple comic book format is what the customer needs and wants then
    then that is how it should be done.  Resisting that for whatever reason
    is addressing what WE need and not the customer.
    
    Steve
    

    One of the best descriptions of land navigation (and the use of
    UTM-gridded maps) I have seen is the US Army's comic book on the
    subject.  Don't deride the format if it gets the job done better than
    the available alternatives.

    The computer age definitely does spoil us.  It is so easy to make
    errors - unintentional ones - even for those who do have strong
    spelling skills.  Spell Check is metza metz (noos a noos... right,
    Nassr?).  
    
    My math skills - never strong - have suffered greatly.  I can't add for
    beans any more, and depend on calculators, and electronic Voucher
    programs that add my expenses for me!
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    I believe that the ~comic book~ approach is right on the money.
    Consider the gulf war, when the Patriot Missiles were making those
    great hits....those service men were under terrific stress, and yet 
    they hit the SCUDS.
    
    Seens to me that the instructions would have to be easy for me too,
    when you just want to get the job done.
    
    The comments made by some in this string point to the notion that you
    need a highly technical explanation , with the un-stated comment
    that only someone as ~smart~ as I can figuire out this stuff.
    
    Simple ways of operating complex hardware/software is very, very
    difficult to do...well.
    
    Marc H.

Since this seems to be the rathole note...

>    Consider the gulf war, when the Patriot Missiles were making those
>    great hits....those service men were under terrific stress, and yet 
>    they hit the SCUDS.

That depends who you believe.  A recent study claimed that the Patriots
didn't hit the Scuds.  The Scuds broke up by themselves.  Raytheon disagrees.

    Re: .127
    
    Just HOW did the Scuds break up?  The Patriots do not have to HIT
    the Scud.....they can explod close by, and then the Scuds break up.
    Mission Acomplished.
    
    Marc H.

    i tink to make complicated software easy to use by humans we need an
    artificial intelligence as an interface to these things.
    
    some of us (example me) dont need AI, because we have plenty of the 
    natural one , and dont have problem with intructions, as a matter of 
    fact the other day i assempled 4' high book shelf all by my self, but 
    i do agree with you , that others with less smarts than us need some 
    help with this problem , and an easy to use human interface is a very 
    important part of a successful software and hardware too.
    
    i tink DEC software and hardware has good interfaces on general.
        
    thank you very much,
    /nasser
    

	I'm usually read-only, but this topic of complex user interfaces has
hit a hot button of mine.  We have definitely proven our ability to provide
an overwhelming number of features in complex products.  What we have not
equally proven is our ability to allow the user to say "hey, I'm a novice at
this" and limit the options we throw at the user to what a novice (in this
example) is likely to need - especially in the windowing case where all the
pulldown menus list everything.  We have to let the user interface grow as the
user gets more knowledgable rather than overwhelm them with options up front.
(DECwrite is a prime example.  I use it for basic presentation slides and yet
its horrid quantity of options (to a new user) really slowed down my learning
curve since I had to sort out what I needed from what I didn't need.)  We don't
need AI for this, all we need is something like a SET OPTIONS {BASIC,
INTERMEDIATE, FULL, OVERWHELMING ;-) } and let a person knowledgable in the
product, user interfaces and how the intended customers will use the product
catagorize where the options fall.  The customer can then decide how complicated
they want the interface to appear to them.

							-craig

    I disagree that clear simple documentation and friendly user interface
    is necessary mainly because our customers are illiterate or lack
    intelligence. 
    
    I really don't care about the inner workings of most of the products I
    use. I really don't care how smart the people who make them are or
    think they are, I really don't care how beset they are by their oh-so
    unique problems. I just want the product to do what I bought it to do. 
    It isn't a lack of intelligence, though I suppose there is room for
    some discussion there :-), it is that I did not choose to be a microwave
    oven designer, a software engineer, an auto mechanic, or an HVAC
    technician. 
    
    There are different things that I understand thoroughly, a different
    set of demands on my time and a different set of interests that I
    choose to pursue. If I think your product can help me, you call me
    stupid to my face, laugh at my ignorance behind my back, or imply my
    stupidity in the way you deal with me at the peril of your success.
    
    People able to write a check made out to Digital are smart enough for
    me.
    
    John H.

    ref .131
    
    >or an HVAC technician.
           ^^^^
    
    PLEASE , No 4 letter words in this notes file !
    
    Thank you,
    /nasser
    

    
    Re: .131
    
    This reminds me of a personal experience.  I own a BMW motorcycle.
    I attended the national rally of BMW owners a couple of years back in 
    York, PA.  I had a conversation with a BMW of North America rep. who
    after listening to my ideas about their bikes politely but firmly told
    me that they knew better and that I didn't know what I was talking
    about.  I made it abundantly clear who the "expert" is when it's MY
    money being spent.  He got the point.
    
    Digital needs to have it clear who the "experts" are.
    
    Steve
    

re .128:

The study claimed that the Patriots had nothing to do with the Scuds'
breakup.  I don't remember the details, but it was in the news a couple
of weeks ago.

Re: .130

Complex products and their UIs are a real hot button with me too. The article
in the next note was written over ten years ago. May it be madatory reading
for all software engineers!
								- Ian W.

>The study claimed that the Patriots had nothing to do with the Scuds'
>breakup.  I don't remember the details, but it was in the news a couple
>of weeks ago.

The Iraqis were said to have self-destructed the Scuds to 1) confuse the
Patriots' targeting systems and 2) spread debris farther through the target
area.  Even if the warhead didn't survive, any death and destruction 
in a civilian area would have been considered a successful attack.
If the Patriot targeting chose the biggest part of the missile that
wasn't the warhead, it might even have survived.

Remembered from an NPR report of a couple of weeks ago.

    If you think the article I cited in .0 was bad.....just check out our
    advertisement in yesterday's WSJ for the Alpha announcement.  Its
    gotta be a classic example of the new marketspeak.  There are so many
    incomplete and improper sentences that old Sister Mary Margaret would
    definitely have slapped me on BOTH ears and sent me home.  Now, the
    following is not a joke.  This is an actual "sentence" from the
    article.
    
         "In chip form, on single boards, or in full computing systems."
    
    Now, class, what's wrong with that sentence?

Dick, how about:

  At the same time, hundreds of Alpha chips can be executed in a massively
    parallel system.

Some states have electric chairs.  Some states use lethal injection for
execution.  Digital has massively parallel systems.

Or:

  A Full 64 Bits On A Single Chip.

Where's the subject?  I suspect that there are, in fact, more than 64 bits
on the chip since technical presentations say that the chip houses slightly
less than two million transistors.

Or:

  Pick An Operating System.
    Any Operating System.

OK, CPM?  OS1100?  TOPS10/20?  NOS/BE? PrimOS?

Or finally:

  An era that will become known as the Alpha era.

Then, of course, there are formatting issues such as putting the word "Alpha"
on the fold in type so small that you don't see it unless the paper is
opened fully.

    
    Alpha. Good. Other chips. Bad. (Insert appropriate slashing hand movements)
    
    C'mon people, lighten up! This is just BUSHspeak :-)
    

    The thing that actually bugs me about it, after having read it over
    a couple more times, is that it is totally content free.  It is 110%
    marketing vaporware.  I can't see one CEO anywhere influenced in
    any way.  Anyone have any idea what an ad like that costs?

    Whether or not a string beginning with a capitol letter and ending with
    a period is a sentence or not depends on the context.  As long as it
    expresses an idea, it is a sentence, and the idea can depend on the
    other words around it.  Specifically, the subject and/or the verb can
    be understood from a previous sentence.  It may not be the type of
    formal sentence one would put into a Nobel address, but it is a
    sentence even if Miss Thistlebottom wouldn't approve.  I suggest that
    be discussed further in the JOKUR::GRAMMAR conference.

    Now, you may not like the shotgun style (I don't either), and it may be
    content free, but don't confuse style, content, and grammar.

    re: .142
    
    You expect content in advertising?  When was the last time you saw an
    ad for *anything* that contained content?  Advertising is supposed to
    excite and provide enough long-term memory to cause you to inquire
    further about the product (my theory).
    
    Does the Swedish Bikini Team have anything to do with beer?  *WHY* did
    10,000 readers of "Design News" pick the Ford Escort as the best car
    for under $10,000?  See?  Content free advertising!
    
    Dick.  8-).

    
    At least we'r doing advetisments, better than no doing it, the more
    we advetise, the more experience the DEC marekting pepole will get
    at it, and we'll improve.
    
    i tink the ad. should have simple message with it, BUT it also should
    have a detailed informtion /specs. about the product on the side, so
    that simple minded pepole can just read the simple message with the
    large letters and go on to the sport page after that, while smart
    computer people like us who want more detailes can read the deatiles
    too.
    
    sometimes i tink i should work in marketing because i tink i have
    natural talents in that area too.
    
    byu.
    /nasser
                                                   
    

    Yeah, I guess you're right...I just maybe thought that maybe Alpha
    had a bit more significance that the Swedish Bikini Team.

As someone who doesn't work in the greater Maynard area, there was something
which struck me about the Alpha announcement which noone else seems to
have picked up yet.

Here is an extract from the Alpha announcement, sent out by *UK* 
corporate communications

>    	 Made in Europe
    
>    	 > Alpha will be manufactured both in Hudson   (Massachusetts) and 
>          at the South Queensferry plant in Scotland from spring 1992.
 
Spot the deliberate mistake?
Well, OK Hudson isn't in Europe but the whole wording is US biased.
This announcement was made in South Queensferry, in Scotland. So
everyone at the meeting is going to know that South Queensferry is in
Scotland aren't they for pete's sake!!!! They don't need to be told this
as if they're getting a lesson in geography. However, no-one's going to
have a clue where on the planet Hudson is and yet the bit of information
that Hudson's in MA gets added apparently as an afterthought. Also
"the South Queensferry plant". Why not "at the Hudson plant"? Too much
knowledge of the US is assumed. This is supposed to be a European
announcement for European journalists and yet is comes over as if its
written by someone in New England who needs to get a map out to find
Scotland, never mind Edinburgh or even "the South Queensferry plant".

Craig

    Re: .147
    
>    	 > Alpha will be manufactured both in Hudson   (Massachusetts) and 
>          at the South Queensferry plant in Scotland from spring 1992.
 
    
    Ok, the sentence could have been more symmetric by either using
    parantheses, or not using them, in both places.  Is that the basis of
    the .-1 complaint?  Parentheses?  Or the word "plant"?
    
    Would this be acceptable?
    
 	Alpha will be manufactured both in Hudson, Massachusetts, and 
	in South Queensferry, Scotland, from spring 1992.
    
    or this?
    
 	Alpha will be manufactured both at the Hudson (Massachusetts) plant
    	and at the South Queensferry (Scotland) plant from spring 1992.
 
    The published sentence may be biased, but it isn't clear to me which
    way.

    Considering the semantic nullity of the announcement, I doubt it
    matters what is said.
    
    Did it look good? Did we pay for lots of journo's to drink and scoff?
    
    

    RE: ..146 by PBST::LENNARD 
    
    >Yeah, I guess you're right...I just maybe thought that maybe Alpha
    >had a bit more significance that the Swedish Bikini Team.

    ... Alpha had a bit more significance that the Swedish Bikini Team
    [what?].
    

    Re: .-1

    I thought it was clear enough in spite of the typo:

    ... Alpha had a bit more significance than the Swedish Bikini Team
    [had significance].			     ^

    Or was your note intended as a humorous one after the several notes on
    grammar?

    RE: .151  by SSDEVO::EGGERS 
    
    >Re: .-1

    >I thought it was clear enough in spite of the typo:

    >... Alpha had a bit more significance than the Swedish Bikini Team
    >[had significance].			     ^

    >Or was your note intended as a humorous one after the several notes on
    >grammar?
    
    Is this a rhetorical question, or are you just taking me to task for
    not adding a ;-)?  
    
    I tend to overlook typographical errors in notes, unless I'm confused
    about the meaning, but I think anybody who makes a big deal out of
    somebody else's language skills should be prepared to endure some
    chuckles at their own expense if they fail to live up to the same
    standard.
    

    
    	Re: .147 
    
    	The reason why "Hudson, Massachusetts" was not used in the
    	body of the press release was because the official Digital
    	release is datelined "Hudson, Mass."  It is neither necessary
    	nor acceptable to refer to Hudson as anything other than
    	Hudson for the remainder of the release.  This is the practice
    	suggested by the Associated Press Stylebook which is Digital's
    	guideline for journalistic pieces and the most common set of
    	rules used in the press today.
    
    	Had the release been datelined "Queensferry, Scotland," the
    	additional text would have read something like, "The new
    	chip will be manufactured in Queensferry and in Hudson,
    	Massachusetts (USA)."  The question is not one of egoism but
    	of journalism.
    
    	Also, in regard to another entry which stated that if something
    	expressed a thought it was a sentence (or words to that effect)
    	let me assure you that the time-honored rule that a sentence
    	must have a subject (a noun) and a predicate (a verb).  It must
    	express a complete thought.  From there you may elaborate by
    	adding objects, adjectives, adverbs, compound and complex
    	structures, and all sorts of nifty things.
    
    	Now, it's been close to twenty years since I decided not to
    	complete my doctorate in English, but to the best of my 
    	knowledge, the old rules still apply.  A sentence fragment
    	is not a sentence.  Grammatically, it is incorrect.  However,
    	sometimes improper grammar may be used for emphasis or
    	effect.  One has to know the rules before one goes about
    	bending or breaking them.  This fact delineates expressive
    	license from illiteracy.  When I write a press release it
    	is grammatically correct.  When I write an article I may
    	use technically incorrect grammar to emphasize a point.
    
    	I am not offering a defence of the newspaper ad.  Personally,
    	I don't care for any of the print material we've been doing
    	since the first salvo of the Open Advantage Campaign.  I
    	feel (humble opinion and all that) that the look and feel 
    	that Mullen designed is cheap, tawdry, and ill-suited to
    	Digital, but then, that's not my side of the house.  Just
    	my two cents.  (Please notice sentence fragment.)
    
    
    	rc
    

Oh?

    
    Re: .154
    
    Interesting try, however, "Oh?" is not a sentence and not a fragment.
    Review sections on exclamations, interrogatories, and interjections.
    
    rc

I've seen the advertisement in question.  The sentence fragments are typical
adspeak.  It's low on substance.  So what?

    Re: .-several on grammar

    This is why I suggested the grammar discussions be carried on in the
    JOKUR::GRAMMAR conference.  I assure you, there will be extended debate
    on what constitutes a sentence, ranging from the formal to the very
    informal to interjections and the like.

6. Do not break sentences in two.

In other words, do not use period for commas.

    I met them on a Cunard liner many years ago.  Coming home from 
  Liverpool to New York.

    He was an interesting talker.  A man who travelled all over the world
  and lived in half a dozen countries.

In both examples, the first period should be replaced by a comma and the
following word begun with a small letter.

It is permissible to make an emphatic word or expression serve the purpose of a
sentence and to punctuate it accordingly:

    Again and again he called.  No reply.

The writer must, however, be certain that the emphasis is warranted, lest his
clipped sentence seem merely a blunder in syntax or punctuation.

From:

Strunk and White
The Elements of Style 3/e
(c)1979 Macmillan Publishuing Co., Inc.
Page 7

   And I always thought strunk and white was the result of approx 7
    consecutive whisky sours ..
    m
    

    Re. .158:
    
    Maybe they have to break sentences that way into non-sentences in
    order to follow some rules for 6th- (4th-, 5th-, 7th-) grade reading
    level regarding the number of words allowed in a "sentence".

    It's merely a style.  You are free to decide whether or not you like
    it.  Or whether or not it will sell computers.

He said: A sentence fragment is not a sentence.  Grammatically, it is 
incorrect.

I said:  Oh?

Then, he said:

  >  Re: .154
    
  >  Interesting try, however, "Oh?" is not a sentence and not a fragment.
  >  Review sections on exclamations, interrogatories, and interjections.
    
I reviewed 'em and I think I'm right.  "Oh" is an interjection only when you
drop something on your toe.  An interjection is "a word (one of the eight
parts of speech) expressing a simple exclamation:  Whew!  Ouch!"  Harbrace
College Handbook.  The Harbrace (intended for correcting the horrendous 
language habits of college freshman)  does say that "a simple sentence 
contains a subject and a predicate", but it starts out by defining a sentence 
as "a grammatically independent unit of expression."  My "Oh?" above fits 
that description.  Any common reader can expand that "Oh?" into its 
full meaning, which is "I very much disagree with your contention, as I
demonstrate in this very sentence, which is filled with meaning and yet
has neither an (apparent) subject or predicate."

Webster's 9th New Collegiate, a much more serious language work than the 
Harbrace, agrees with me and defines a sentence as "A grammatically 
self-contained speech unit consisting of a word or a syntactically related
group of words that expresses an assertion, a question, a command, a wish, or
an exclamation, that in writing usu. begins with a capital letter and concludes 
with appropriate punctuation, and that in speaking is distinguished by various 
patterns of stress, pitch, and pauses."

I'll stop now, but the definitions of interjection, exclamation, and sentence 
fragment in the same dictionary bear me out, as does the definition of 
interrogatory, which has nothing to do with this issue at all

I was going to do this by mail, but since others have continued the rathole
who am I to stop now?

Those of you with long memories will recall the Patriot missile rathole in
this topic.  The following is from RISKS Digest:

RISKS-LIST: RISKS-FORUM Digest  Thursday 27 February 1992  Volume 13 : Issue 19

        FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS 
   ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator


Date: 27 Feb 92 13:01:00 EST
From: "UKAV03::W0400" <W0400%UKAV03.decnet@usav01.glaxo.com>
Subject: Patriot missiles misled by `accidental' decoys

Quotes from an article in the New Scientist 15 Feb 1992:

The US Army's Patriot missiles missed many of the Iraqi missiles that the US
thought they had shot down during the Gulf War, according to a new analysis.
Iraqi's modified Scud missile, called the Al-Husayn, was difficult to hit
because it was so unstable that it broke into pieces when it reentered the
atmosphere, creating a confusing barrage of debris.

Ted Postol, a professor at MIT, re-examined the Patriot's war record at the
request of a Congressional committee.  He found that deploying Patriot missiles
defences did not reduce damage during Iraq's missile attacks on Israel and
Saudi Arabia.

Postol then examined videotapes recored by TV journalists that seemed to show
the Patriot missiles successfully intercepting Al-Husayn missiles.  Paytheon,
the Patriot's manufacturer, has used this footage to promote its missile.
Incoming Iraqi missiles are visible on the videotapes because of their
velocity, about two metres per second, {that must be a mistype in the article,
I expect it should be two kilometers per second W.} makes them glow
incandescently as they re-enter the athmosphere.  The videotape also captures
the explosions of the Patriot interceptors.

Postol played these videotapes in slow motion to an audience of the AAAS.  As
the Patriot detonations flashed on the screen, Postol stopped the tape to show
how far these explosions were from the glowing Al-Husayn warheads.  In most
cases, the Iraqi Al-Husayn warhead appeared to fly straight on unharmed.  In
one case, there was a fireball as the Iraqi warhead exploded on impact with the
ground.

The army claims that the Patriots successfully intercepted 45 of the 47
missiles they tried to shoot down.  But Postol says the tapes show that in some
of these cases, the Patriots missed their targets by at least a kilometer.
Postal measures this distance by comparing the relative motions of the Patriot
fireball, which stays in one place, and the Al-Husayn warhead.

The Patriot had a particularly hard time hitting the Al-Husayn because of
problems with the Iraqi missile.  Iraqi engineers had extended the range of the
Soviet Scud-B missile by lengthening its fuel tanks and making its warhead much
lighter.  The changes made the missile unstable, and caused the Al-Husayn to
flop belly-first as it re-entered the athmosphere, often breaking up in the
process.  the Patriot missile had to distinguish between the Al-Husayn's
warhead and other debris such as the empty fuel tank and tail fins which rained
from from the sky.  In effect, the Iraqi missile released unintended but
effective "decoys" to distract the Patriot, said Postol.  Ther Patriot had its
own problems as well.  One software bug could have directed the Patriot to
attempt to intercept an incoming missile at a point below ground.  In one case
this bug may have caused a Patriot to turn back and dive into the ground.

Postol argues that the effectiveness of the Al-Husayn's unintended decoys shows
how extremely simple factors can frustrate attempts to shoot down ballistics
missiles.  This could teach scepticism when it comes to evaluating the claims
made for missile defence technologies, such as plans for the US Star Wars
system.

Raytheon disputes Postol's conclusions, but has not yet made public a detailed
analysis that would rebut his claims.  Defenders of the Patriot believe the
damage on the ground could have come from falling debris rather than from
detonations of the Iraqi missile's warhead.

  [It is funny how what starts as a great success, turns out less than so, when
  investigated. It also demonstrates that very simple systems can (and do)
  prevent the high technology systems working, as well as showing that
  designers of such systems get a mindset as assumes the opponents have the
  same mindset.  This is not always so...    Lord John - The Programming Peer]

    Reminds me of the story about a philosophy conference in New York City
    (several years ago).
    
    One of the presentors discussed how, in the many, many languages 
    that the speaker had examined, a double negative was sometimes 
    interpreted in the positive sense, sometimes in the negative sense.  
    
    Never, however, was a 'double positive' expression interpreted in the 
    negative sense.
    
    From the back of the room came the cry, "Yeah, yeah."
    
    (I believe the speaker concluded the presentation immediately :').
    

    I thought the comment from the back of the room (in a sarcastic
    tone) was "Yeah, right".

    
    Re: .165
    
    If the comment was delivered with a sarcastic tone, it
    wouldn't matter whether it was "yeah, right" or "yeah, yeah".  
    The effect would have been the same.
    
    Steve
    

Re .105:

>    Programmers have to demonstrate proficiency in the languages and
>    operating systems they develop on...

I thought this conference was about "the way we work at Digital".
				/AHM