Conference 7.286::digital

Dear Disgusted,

>>>...Digital is hiring sales and sales support folks in N.J.

If you don't have the sales staff selling, then there's going to
be even mor deployment of skilled employees.

>>>I've got to believe that the necessary skills already exist.

Have you ever tried selling? It's a whole new skill set and
culture.

>>>Can't the hundreds (or thousands) of people on redeployment
be trained for those jobs?

If you are a software engineer, do you suppose what skills you
would need to become a hardware engineer? or better yet, a sales
manager? Did you volunteer for All-hands-on DEC?

Cal Hoe

    IMHO, I think a lot of the people that are on redeployment
    don't want to or are not able to pick up and move to another
    geographical location. Retraining and relocation has been done
    (I'm now in US Admin in Arizona ... formerly of US Manufacturing
    in Merrimack, NH), but it's not for everyone. The various notes
    in here about "career days" tells that the company has looked into
    the excess pool for these skills, but has come up short in matching
    them to some geographical locations.
    
    Just my opinion....
    
    pat
    

    Better to hire new people with the motivation and correct skills
    mix to help Digital than to force someone into a mismatch or all-around
    bad situation.  While it seems crazy on the surface, if you dig
    deeper, you find a valid business purpose.
    
    ...and on the same note, rumor has it that a certain Software Supply
    Business has opened 50 requisitions to hire entry level order pickers
    and materials handlers into the company.   Does it sound crazy,
    especially considering that within 50 yards of where these new hires
    will be working, a TMP area is located?  Over 50 people right there,
    currently looking for work!   If it seems crazy, I urge you to think
    a little deeper, because it isn't crazy at all.   TMP has a population
    of experienced, skilled employees -- not entry level order pickers.
    There is a business need for new hires, and the available pool of
    resources doesn't have people appropriate for that work.  

    I think that the biggest problem isn't finding the people within
    the Corporation who can do the work, it's finding the ones that
    are willing to relocate to teh NY/NJ area.  It is on the bottom
    of most people's list. 
    
    Just my opinion,
    Serv

    >I think that the biggest problem isn't finding the people within
    >the Corporation who can do the work, it's finding the ones that
    >are willing to relocate to teh NY/NJ area.  It is on the bottom
    >of most people's list. 
    
    
    Right above Cleveland ;-)>
    

    
    I know of Digital employees who WANT to sell but neither personnel nor
    sales management will give them any "real" consideration because the
    mentality is that only "experienced sales professionals" can be
    successful.
    
    What happened to the Digital philosophy of allowing an employee to be
    in the right position where he or she can contribute to the success of
    Digital?  I thought Digital offered 'retraining' and even "apprentice"
    type positions?
    

re: .0

Now that the stress of coming to s decision of whether to relocate or not is
over for me, I think I can add my $.02 on this.

I posessed the skills necessary for the position but decided not to relocate 
(and to the area in question) due to MANY factors.  Probably if I had finished
grad school I may have had the balance of the scale tipped the other way.  
However .2 or .3 is right in saying that relocation is not for everyone.  I'm
sure though that one day I will move to a "far-flung" location for DEC, but
circumstances prevented me from doing so now.  I can say from experience that
these kinds of decisions are the toughest a person will have to make in their
life, and can be the source of tension headaches.  By the way I am not on
redeployment, I was genuinely interested in opportunities in the field.

What I do object to in this company is the mis/nonuse of those in the TMP, such 
as mfg. engineers.  We are trying to answer a demand for UNIX expertise, but 
we can't satisfy it internally, or so they say.  So the areas go ahead and hire
people whose reportoire of experience on UNIX may not exceed using it in
college.  So with each new hire down up goes the headcount, and down goes the
productivity level.  What would be more beneficial, training mfg. engineers on
ULTRIX, or hiring more people? 

--David 

    I would go even further than 963.7.  If, as .3 hints, there is an
    organization that is close to a TMP group but has opened 50 reqs
    for entry-level positions, then something is wrong!  If I were in
    TMP and had been unsuccessful in finding a position for a while,
    I would jump at the chance to take an entry-level position!  It
    would improve my job security, and give me something useful to do
    while I continued my search.
        John Sauter

    How can DEC *NOT* afford to hire entry level people, especially
    college recruits for technical positions (engineering)?  I mean
    lets face it people, there's a big difference between filling these
    positions with bright, sharp, eager college grads who have just
    been tested in fire in a technical curriculum at a university somewhere
    and someone who forgot all of his/her high school math a couple
    decades ago but is willing to learn.  I know, I know, an extreme
    example but the point is made.
    
    Before I go ferther, I'm not trying to stereotype or question anyone's
    ability.  I'm just saying that it is foolish to think that retraining
    can serve all of DEC's needs, in engineering as well as sales or
    any other area for that matter.  Do we let our market share slip,
    now and in the future because we're not willing to put the best
    people we can in the positions that we need filled?
    
    It's a tough call, and no one wants to to see hiring freezes, wage
    freezes or layoffs, but something's got to give, sooner or later.
    Are overzealous retraining efforts going to contribute the success
    of DEC?  Success in the market place as compared to our competitors 
    (that's what it comes down to really).   
    
    
    Dave

    As a member of a New Jersey group with about 20 open reqs, I offer
    the following observations.
    
    	1. Not all reqs carry relocation.
    
    	2. Not all of the reqs that carry relocation have been applied
    	   for.
    
    	3. Not all of the offers have been accepted.
    
    Point 3 is reputed to be due to the fact that New Jersey is a more
    expensive place to live than Mass. Not having tried to live up north,
    I cannot swear to the truth of this.
    
    Point 2 merely justifies point 1 but it suggests that there is a
    significant perception problem somewhere. Either the jobs are
    unattractive or there is a filter (a personnel rep?) somewhere in
    the line that is rejecting applications. I can believe that the
    descriptions are too vague for most people but the TMP folk should
    (or should be encouraged to) be applying for jobs on the vaguest
    chance of a fit.
    
    Point 1 indicates that we need to hire outside the company to fill
    these reqs (there are too few people in the area to expect local
    transfers to work. Besides, the other units in the area also have
    open reqs).
    
    Given that there is work waiting for these people, the question
    becomes is it cheaper (in the long term) to hire locally or to
    move the existing group to the vicinity of the labour pool in the
    HOPE that the pool will be able to replace the people who refused
    to move and that the move will not cause projects to slip. Factor in
    the cost of travel from our new home to the customers who are now
    further away. What would you do?
    
    With regard to the suggestion that folk on TMP should be drafted
    to fill entry level positions. I would suggest that this is not
    the way to treat someone who has held a responsible job for a number
    of years. Insisting that they take an entry level job is likey to
    destroy their sense of confidence and self worth ensuring that they
    will never go back to their old jobs or try to advance in their
    new ones. I would like to be wrong in the opinion but I don't think
    that I am.

    Some times the market demands that we have certain skills to sell
    NOW.  Not later, when someone is fully trained.
    
    Sometimes positions in sales need to be filled by EXPERIENCED sales
    professionals NOW.  Like if its a Corporate account.  Can't leave
    it open, they MUST have attention and you can't put in someone who
    doesn't know the product well, or Customer satisfaction will suffer.
    
    Sometimes, trained professionals are willing to transfer, but because
    its the middle of the fiscal year, their current managers will refuse
    the transfer until the end of the fiscal year.  Can't have their
    own territories open can they?
    
    

    Speaking from a left coast perspective, I have heard that many N.E.
    residents come here to LA to see if they fit the job, and find out
    just how bad the housing/insurance/transportation costs are, which
    leaves them having to decide whether to lower their net standard
    of living to accept the job. This is regardless of how good or bad 
    a fit they were for the position. Given the martetplace here in LA, there 
    are many more qualified job-applicants in Mass. than in LA, but this 
    one factor seems to prevent many from making the move, or at least 
    changes their destination to somewhere less expensive like AZ. LA
    seems to be becoming a high-priced one-way island whereby people
    who leave can do what they want and people trying to get in are
    stuck in the hinterlands. 
    
    It's distressing from a professional level but good news at a personal
    level. I say this because conditions have become much worse than
    they were years ago and much of that reduction is due to people
    crowding in for their piece of the California legend. It's getting
    so crowded that it's going to be worse than New York in a few years.
    Hopefully the growth rate will slow down to a sustainable level
    if enough people realize it's not paradise or better than home
    necessarily.
    
    erik g.

RE: .ALL

The solution is simple...

If any of you folks out there know of someone who is assigned to TMP and
is willing to relocated to N.J. I would suggest that you have them call
Personnel in Piscataway NJ to let their interest be known. I'm sure that
most of the managers in this area would prefer to hire well qualified
internal people rather than hire from the outside. 

A previous reply stated that some of these positions have relocation.
You must be able to do some negociating on the others, who knows?

I don't know if all the positions are listed in VTX but your local
personnel office should be able to get them for you.

By the way, Newark NJ was rated the 50th best place to live in the U.S.
in a list published in USeless Today.

John

    Several of the previous replies have discussed the problem of needing
    to hire people with specific skills, which people in TMP may not
    posess.  I don't disagree with that.
    
    However, in the case of an entry-level position, if relocation is not a
    problem I don't see why a person in TMP would turn it down.  I have a
    friend who lives even further away from the large New Hampshire towns
    than I do.  He is a skilled electronics technician, and has worked for
    a couple of companies in New England, travelling as far as Rhode Island
    and Burlington, Vermont to do field service-type calls.  Due to some
    personal problems he lost his job and is now looking for work.  While
    he is looking he is doing carpentry work as a day labourer.  It doesn't
    pay a whole lot, but it's better than sitting around the house.
    
    I've never been in the position he is in---I've always had skills that
    were in high enough demand that my employers have been willing to
    overlook my various pecularities.  Nevertheless, I think that if I were
    in the same situation I would do the same thing my friend did---get an
    entry-level (i.e., unskilled) job.  When the alternative is sitting
    around idle, I think having an entry-level job would improve my
    self-esteem.
        John Sauter

	To correct misconceptions about New Jersey, New Jersey is not
	the NJ Turnpike and what you see on either side of from exit 18
	to exit 8. Only 35% of NJ is developed, with 35% farmland and the
	remaining 30% is either local, state, or federal parks. 

	NJ is an expensive place to live, I grant that. If I re-located to
	the mid-west, I probably could let my wife quit work and maintain
	my current standard-of-living. 

	There are people re-locating from Mass to NJ. This person joined our
	district about 6 weeks ago. However, she is still haggling over
	getting her condo sold and has been living at hotels since her
	acceptance of the job. 

	I think Digital might be better served by having regional cost-of-
	living allowances for people. In this way, a consultant in 
	another less expensive area of the country would be paid the same
	as consultant in the more expensive area of the country. This won't
	happen and would be costly to administrate for Digital. So in the
	more expensive areas of the country, promotions are sometimes driven
	by economics rather than merit. Hopefully the new salary ranges
	driven by JEC can eliminate some of the problem. 

	In NJ, we need people and especially in New York. We're cleaning up
	our beaches, come down and see us. We looking for a few good 
	people...

    A little over two years ago (Summer 1987) I looked at both Mass.
    and NJ for relocation.  Both were very similarly priced (housing,
    real estate tax, etc.)
    
    We chose to relocate to NJ.
    
    As the real estate market in both areas has fallen somewhat in the
    interim, I would still bet that the 'cost of living' in both AND
    the quality of life is similar.  For these reasons, I have a difficult
    time understanding the reluctance to relocate from Mass to NJ on
    a cost basis.
    
    	-Barry_who_moved_from_Atlanta-
    

    The reluctance to move from MA to anywhere else can also be 
    attributed to the fact that if you want to be in DEC then
    MA is the one of the best place to be for job options.  That 
    is moving around in DEC in MA area is considerably easier 
    then in other areas.

RE: <<< Note 963.17 by ULTRA::GONDA "DECelite: Pursuit of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Happiness." >>>
>    The reluctance to move from MA to anywhere else can also be 
>    attributed to the fact that if you want to be in DEC then
>    MA is the one of the best place to be for job options.  That 
>    is moving around in DEC in MA area is considerably easier 
>    then in other areas.

I think you are going to start to see this change more and more in
the future.  I believe the senior management has begun to see that
the company can't work in the total isolation of remote MA and NH
locations.  The only way to break the natural "I want to be near
the action" mentality is to move the action.

On the flip side though...If you are not sure that DEC is the place 
you want to retire from moving to NJ is a great idea.  In this area
it is easy for computer people to change companies. Last year the
average pay increase for ALL workers in NJ was 8%.  I am told that
because of the demand, in NYC people frequently leave DEC and 
come back and leave...

John

    I've heard the "we're going to grow outside of New England" 
    rhetoric for the 5 years I've been here.
    
    I'd have to say that substantive efforts in this regard have
    been less than successful.

>On the flip side though...If you are not sure that DEC is the place 
>you want to retire from moving to NJ is a great idea.  In this area
>it is easy for computer people to change companies. Last year the
>average pay increase for ALL workers in NJ was 8%.  I am told that
>because of the demand, in NYC people frequently leave DEC and 
>come back and leave...

Sounds great, if you like revolving doors.  Money is important (and I could use
more :-), but it isn't 100% of the issue.  People have to decide whether they
want to work for a vendor or an end-user, and for most of us leaving Digital
would not be an easy decision.

--David

    I consistently here the term SALES PROFESSIONAL used in discussions
    about staffing the field.   I've never heard though, what specific
    personal attributes a SALES PROFESSIONAL holds.  If it refers to
    product knowledge it seems to me you have a better chance of finding
    that from an inside hire than by going to the street.
    
    If it means good verbal skills I submit that those are found in
    a wide variety of jobs.   If it means good writing skills, ditto.
    Does it mean; good looking, willing to travel, patience, agressiveness,
    detail oriented, etc...?
    
    Could someone please describe a SALES PROFESSIONAL in human terms?

    SALES is the key.  Um, lets see.  Trained in negociating, translating
    busness problems into technical solutions, closing, managing resources,
    budgeting, forecasting, territory management...to name a few.  Each
    of these topics can be learned and practiced in varying degrees,
    ie you can take negociating 101, 102, 103 etc...
    
    A SALES PROFESSIONAL is someone who is formally trained in areas
    like these, areas generic to the profession of sales, to a high
    degree and has experience in the art of selling.
    
    

    Hi Mark, (strange to be meeting you like this, lemme get my B100s)
    
    Yes, SALES in all that you describe, professionally. I think they must
    also possess such personal attributes as: patience, diplomacy,
    perception, sensitivity... These are some of the things which you
    cannot be trained on. That's why some people are born salesman while
    other make a mess of it (having encountered your diplomacies, Mark, I'm
    not surprised to find you in Financial Sales :).
    
    Sad to say, there is also a great many people in Digital who is under
    the impression that all a Salesman does is to answer phone calls,
    vaguely describing the requirements to his presales staff, loggin onto
    AQS,...
    
    HW

Re: a few back

Regarding relocation: if any TMP or other internal job seekers went to the 
Career Opportunity Days event, their relocation is covered regardless of 
whether the req has approved relocation funds...

Jim

    Re : a few back ..
    
    A Sales Professional is one who closes Sales.
    A Sales Amateur is one who doesn't.
    
    Mike Day
    

In the KYOA::NEW_JERSEY notes file #140 there is information on job
oportunities in New Jersey WITH relocation.

So if you are tired of living in the Peoples' Republic you might
want to check it out.

John

For anyone who may be interested in jobs in the New York City area:

Today's New York Slimes and the Newark Star-Ledger have an employment ad
from Digital for "Software Professionals".  The ad copy is horrible.
Reading it gives me the impression that the positions are sales support.
The requirements requested are 3-5 years experience in serveral of the
following areas:  RDB, Networking, DECnet, Communications, VMS,
Project Management, EDI, SNA, OLTP, Imaging, X-Windows, C, Grphics,
DBMS, FMS, and ACMS.

A career symposium is being held Thursday March 22, Noon-7:00 BY
APPOINTMENT ONLY

The ad says to make an appointment call 212-856-2703 MODAY (Tomorrow),

If unable to call please send resume to Jude Williamson @NYO.

Please note that I have nothing whatsoever to do with these jobs and
have no information other than what is in the ad.  Since sending resumes
in Digital have a reputation that is somewhat similar as writing to NL:
the only suggestion I have for locating direct contacts is to make an
inquiry in the New York area notes file (SUBWAY::LOCAL).

John

    Just out of morbid curiosity, is it possible to live in
    New York on a DIGITAL-ized salary?
    
    Geoff
    

>    Just out of morbid curiosity, is it possible to live in
>    New York on a DIGITAL-ized salary?
 
	I would assume so. I know I used to do it. But what do you mean
	by live in New York? Parts of Manhattan are probably out to all
	but the Donald Trump's of the world. You used to be able to get
	a one room walk up appartment for under $1,000 a month in manhattan
	but that was 10 years ago. I don't know if you can still do it.

	If you want to live in Brooklyn or Queens you should be able to
	find nice housing for DEC salary rates. Don't expect to get a 2
	acre lot though. :-) You're talking about an apartment or half of
	a duplex probably. You may want to look in SUBWAY::LOCAL for local
	New York opinion.

			Alfred

	PS: Brooklyn and Queens are part of the City of New York not suburbs
	BTW.

    re .28
    
    If you're thinking about it, my understanding is that it would take a
    semi-major adjustment in life-style.  (Well, for me anyway).  Riding
    the train for 1-2 hours *one way* to work is not unheard of in order to
    get a home "out of the city".   And (at least it used to be this way)
    instead of a company car (which would make very little sense in NYC),
    you get a semi-equivalent (?) amount per month which was supposed to
    reimburse you for ???? (train tokens?  taxi?  the hassle?)
    
    Your best bet, if you're considering it, is to check with a local.
    
    fwiw
    Jon

RE: past few

I should point out that New York Area in Digital means not only NYC but
Lon Gisland, Rockland, Westchester, and Northern NJ.  I believe that 
most of the jobs in the NYA are in NYC, however I do know that there are
many jobs available in NJ.

I would say that NJ living expenses are probably about the same as in MA
and the trafic is probably a lot better.  Most DEC people in NJ live within
20-30 minutes of the office.

Commuting time to NY depends on where you live.  Since the NYC Digital
office is above the train station, there are yuppy communes in places
like Hoboken and Jersey City where the commute may only be 15-20
minutes.  You can also live in Brooklyn or Queens.  Personally, I do not
recommend commuting long distances but if you want to work in NY there
are ways to avoid it.

For NYC Information:  SUBWAY::LOCAL
For NJ Information:  KYOA::NEW_JERSEY

Some hiring managers do read these conferences.

John

    Actually NYA runs up the Hudson to Albany as well.  I work out of WHO
    in Tarrytown and live in Putnam County (about 65 miles from NYO in
    Manhattan).  Decent houses on 1/3 to 1/2 acre can be had up here for
    around $150,000.  My usual commute is about 30 minutes, either to the
    office or to a customer.
    
    On the other hand, I've been on assignment at Bankers Trust in lower
    manhattan for the last 7 months (the NYNEX strike slowed things up in
    Westchester).  Current commuting time is 2 1/4 hours - EACH WAY!
    
    
    -dave

        INcidentally, New York is not the only Metropolis that is
        ridiculously expensive to live in. Sydney and (I am told) Tokyo
        and Geneva are outragoeously expensive...
        
        q
        

    Last time I was in NYC on business, I traded horror stories with NYC
    DECies, comparing NYC with Toronto - they seem to be neck and neck in
    terms of numbers for housing, commute times, etc. - except that the CDN 
    dollar is worth around .85 cents U.S. and parking in Toronto seems to be 
    much more expensive (downtown) - $250-300 Canadian month for an 
    underground spot vs. 200-250 U.S.
    
    Scooter
    

    But Toronto is everything a very big city should be, but doesn't seem
    to have the problems of most big cities.  I walked all over Toronto at
    all hours and never felt unsafe.  I saw poor neighborhoods, but no real
    slums like we have in big US cities.  I really liked Toronto's ethnic
    neighborhoods and food.  The parks and bike trails are fantastic.  I
    would spend the money to live in Toronto because of the quality of life
    I experienced.

Beware of the surveys that show how East Nowhere is the most expensive
city in the civilized universe.  They work by taking a "normal" American
businessman's lifestyle and duplicating it in the foreign country.  Thus,
how expensive is a 5,000 sq. foot house in Tokyo, how much does a double
scotch cost in Stockholm, stuff like that.

Natives (living like natives) don't pay anywhere near as much, even if
they have comparable lifestyles.

Now, I could make a good case for Boston to be the most expensive city
for a Swede who wants to live as a Swede:

-- Transportation home from a party where you have one drink, $20 taxi
   instead of $1 bus ticket.
-- Car insurance $1,000 instead of $200
-- Opera tickets $60 instead of $5 (hmm, there isn't much opera in Boston:
   should I include travel to New York, too?)
-- Safe jogging in the parks at night: $1,000 (police guards) instead of free.

Not to mention the total unavailability of decent quality potatoes.  (That
for all of the American businessmen who can't find a good steak.)

Martin.

    re:.36
    
    Double-scotch? Opera? Deccies like beer and mud-restling!
    
    Ken