Conference 7.286::digital

    I shared a room once on a business trip in Australia.  The guy I
    shared it with watched cricket games IN ENGLAND all night.
    
    Not an error I will repeat.
    
    No sharing, no chains on these wrists.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

                           
    Once again here is my experience on "sharing the room" on one of
    those sales support seminars. The symposium took place in AUG 87
    at Springfield Marriot.I was new to the company and I strictly followed
    the instructions sent to me ( ie: Corporate policy states that
    every one attending the symposium should share the room) 
    
    When I checked in to the hotel I was told that I am sharing the
    room with a guy from far east. ( May be they thought all orientals
    are the same. I never met this guy before in my life and when I
    walked in to the room I was shocked to see the room full of smoke.
    Since he came from far east he had a problem of jet lag and kept
    watching TV and reading religious books loud all night in a langauage
    I could not follow. Climax of his TV watching was the all night
    adult movies using "PAY TV". Every morning he will wake up at 5.00 AM 
    and use the bath room and make a big mess. When get up in the morning,
    I had to call the house cleaning every day and get new towels. The
    entire week was a TORTURE  for me.
     
    Being new to Digital I thought this is torture all the employees go 
    through... Well ! I found that some of the fellow collegues who are 
    in same or lot lower grades than my self  were using a single room. When
    I asked them they winked and told me few secrets.
    
    * At the time of " checking in" tell the hotel desk to give them a
    king size bed. There can'tbe two king size beds in a room. Hence.....
       
    * Their bosses tell them to check in to a single room. The policy
    is not uniform and left to the discretion of the unit managers.
    I researched the entire ORANGE BOOK and I am yet to find a single
    word about doubling up.
    
    
    I still don't understand why we should stay in expensive hotels
    such as Marriot or Sheraton and share rooms. I would rather stay
    in a chaper hotel such as Ramada or Hoilday Inn and have some privacy
    and peace of mind.  Every one entitled to some privacy and should
    be allowed to stay in a single room irrespective of their grades. 
    
    
    

    True story.
    
    I snore. I really snore, so they tell me. (I don't know how my wife
    puts up with it.) I went to a sales meeting and we were told that
    we must share rooms. I informed the coordinators that I snore, and
    it would be unfair to my roommate, who would not be able to sleep.
    They reply, sorry, them's the rules.
    
    I inform my roommate that I snore. He says no problem, it won't
    bother me. Next morning: Roommate is red eyed and wiped out. Didn't
    sleep a wink -- my snoring kept him up all night.
    
    We go to he coordinator and insist on another room. Sorry, the hotel
    is full. We insist some more. They find a new room for me in a nearby
    hotel. The rest of the week goes fine.
    
    Now everytime they tell me that I must double up, I tell them about
    my story. If the person I'm talking to says, sorry, them's the rules,
    I escalate higher until I find somebody who is reasonable. I never
    want to do that to anybody again.
    
    Rich

    I have used the following procedure successfully many times. Once
    Digital makes some travel arrangements, I am free to make different
    ones as long as I don't cost the company any more money. When I turn in
    the expense accounting, the total will be for slightly less than for
    Digital's arrangements. I can then argue, if necessary, that I did it
    to save the company money. That has ALWAYS worked.
    
    The last time I did this was a year agao on a trip from Boston to LA.
    The airline ticket that was purchased for me was non-stop both ways,
    not the red-eye, and purchased at the last minute. When I got to LA I
    made some different arrangements for the return. I reserved a
    rent-a-car to drive to San Francisco, and made a cheap reservation,
    with one stop, to fly from San Francisco back to Boston. I then took
    three days of vacation to drive from LA to San Francisco. I had a great
    time driving up the Pacific Coast Highway and seeing some friends along
    the way. When I filled out the expense account, I charged the
    rent-a-car, some of the three-days' lodging (but not all of it), and
    the cheaper air fare to Digital. The total to Digital was about $50
    less then the Digital-provided travel arrangements. That time I did
    have to argue and defend my alternate arrangements, but Digital did
    pay.
    
    Moral: you are free to make your own lodging arrangements at a cheaper
    place.

    I hate sharing for all the reasons mentioned so far....and, honestly,
    I have gotten out of doubling up on a lot of occasions.  The hardest
    and least flexible is DECworld, DECville, etc....don't you think?
    
    Vicki
    

Ditto all the above reasons for not sharing rooms...  If I wanted to live 
with strangers I'd have joined the Army.   There is nothing that has more
of a negative impact on productivity during a business trip than to room
with a stranger whose living habits are contradictory to yours.

We all live our lives differently...and have different priorities...hmmm...
..now wasn't "Valuing Differences" a Digital buzzword for a while... is that
*ALL* it was... a meaningless word?

How do you justify to the non-smoker, the value of sharing a room with a
chain-smoker?   Where do you recoop the costs of drycleaning all of his/her
clothes and luggage, to get rid of the smell?  How do you make up for his/her
inconvenience?

How does Digital expect to get the best effort from the individual who's
roomate decided to throw a party, of decided to go out drinking until 
closing time, or watches adult movies all night, or listens in while you
try to talk to your wife, or messes the bathroom up beyond recognition,
or is such a neat freak that it drives you crazy, or etc, etc, etc.

I DO NOT SHARE ROOMS WITH STRANGERS FOR ANY REASON. PERIOD.

If that's a career limiting statement for Digital, then Digital will not
be the company from which I will retire.  

I understand the need to conserve expenses, but when Digital sends me out on
business, I'm already giving up a great deal of my time (Flying out on
Sundays, at night, etc.) and convenience.   If Digital cannot afford to
put me up in a single room, then as far as I'm concerned, they can't
afford to send me.

_________________________________________________________________

Another problem, besides cost, that is leading to this room sharing farse,
is the tendency to book conferences at hotels that do not have enough 
room for all of the attendees to have single rooms.  If this is the case,
then the organizers of the conference have failed to do their jobs.  Each
person attending an event is entitled to a private room.

A prime example is the recently completed Network University Training, held
at the Sheraton Tara in Danvers.  I was lucky... I managed to get a single
room at the Tara.   Others desiring single rooms were forced to go to 
a Howard Johnson's or Best Western, and commute to the training.  This 
should have been held at a larger facility...everyone should be able to
stay in the hotel where the seminar is being held.  

I could go on for days about this, but the bottom line is that no one should
be forced to share a room with a stranger for Digitals benefit, regardless
of rank or grade.   If I can't get out of sharing a room, then that means
Digital has explicitly told me that I must work for them 24 hours a day
while doing so... and I will be taking that as comp time.

Bob

    This may be a bit off the subject of sharing hotel rooms,but DEC
    also makes you share an apartment when you go for training in
    Bedford.Aside from the rule of "no females rooming with males",there
    are *absolutely* no other rules governing who lives with who.I have
    been lucky,so far,but others are not so fortunate.I remember one
    guy who was afraid to open the refrigerator for fear of what he
    might see.(he was forced to room with someone from a foreign country
    who ate things that Americans normally don't) His friends would
    visit and smoke like hell until the guy just had to get out.
    Then there was the guy...

    re .3
    
    I also really snore. One time I took a training course at a remote
    site and was told that we'd double up. I not only warned the
    facilitators but also my peers, and they matched me with a fellow
    who has the same problem. Well, we're each comforted by knowing
    that we're not the world's worst, but it sure made the training
    a drag.
    
    		... and I can still hear you, O ..... :)

    Shifting the weight of the discussion to other side, you people seem a
    bit spoiled to me. I was frankly surprised when I found that travel
    arrangements for my group are routinely single room. I even made a
    comment to the group secretary that this was extravagant. I worked in
    an other field (environmental consulting) for more than 12 years and
    had always doubled up with another guy when travelling. 
                                                           
    Don't you realize that hotels almost never are set up for single
    occupany? When was the last time you had a room with only one bed
    in it?  Just be glad we aren't working the world of 100-150 years
    ago, when it was common for travellers to share the same BED!
    
    Neil (who also roughs it by sleeping in the woods without a bug
    net - if you think snorers and smokers are bad, try choruses of
    mosquitos!)

  Most of the hotel rooms I have stayed in have two double beds. But the cost
to the hotel of the second bed and the space for it is a small percentage of
the capital and operating cost of the room. Hotels want to be flexible enough
to handle all combinations. In the old days it was common for the staff to
set up a cot on wheels ("rollaway") if someone needed a second bed, but that
is impractical; rollaways are much less comfortable than the standard beds and
handling them causes problems too numerous to list. 
  If DEC has any control over which hotel a seminar is held at, they should
choose one at which the cost of one person in a room is much less than the
total cost of two people sharing a room. 
  I am concerned about what .7 said about people staying in short-term apart-
ments while attending school in Bedford. Is apartment sharing standard pro-
cedure within DEC, or does it depend on which group you are in? How are these
apartments set up (1-bedroom?)?

    
    Re: .10
    
    The apartments are 2 bedroom with a "kitchenette" (stove, refrigerator,
    etc.) There is a laundry room in the basement of the building.
    
    The bedrooms each have doors (I can't remember if they lock) and
    there is a "living room" with couch/chairs.
    
    I'm not the expert on this but the only time I stayed there was
    when I went back for four weeks. I've been on several 2 week stays 
    that were in a hotel so it sounds like the deciding factor is how
    long you are there. 
    
    My roomate was in F/S training for six weeks from Japan. We hardly
    saw each other because of the heavy course load. The few times we
    did see each other we learned two things: I didn't speak Japanese
    and he didn't speak much English.
    
    							Warren
    

Re: .-1

The condo's in Worchester that I stayed in also had two bathrooms
which I think is quite indispensable for occupants of either sex
if they are going to try to get out of the place in any reasonable 
time in the mornings.

Re: responses on smoking roommate

The corporation has a smoking policy set up for all its facilities
now to prevent any problems with smokers vs. non-smokers.  I would
think that any person who booked a smoker and a non-smoker in a
room would be violating the spirit if not the letter of that policy.
Make sure you tell the person making the arrangements that you want
a non-smoking room.  (In some hotels whole floors are permanently
non-smoking.)

    I have no quarrel with the company's position on room-sharing at
    DECworld.  Having had the unmitigated pleasure of trying to find
    lodging for a number of frustrated customers last year, I am painfully
    aware of the hotel situation at such a huge event.  In fact, I had two
    customers who shared a room at DECworld last year, just because they
    couldn't get two rooms within a 30-mile radius of the World Trade
    Center. 
    
    However, in response to .9:
    
    > Don't you realize that hotels almost never are set up for single
    > occupancy? When was the last time you had a room with only one bed in
    > it? 
    
    For normal business travel, if Digital books me into a room with
    another person, and that room has two complete bathrooms, then I'll
    agree that the room is set up for double occupancy.  Less than two full
    baths, and I don't buy the double occupancy bit.  Two beds is NOT
    enough.  I don't have to share a bathroom at home, and I should
    not have to share one when traveling for Digital.
    
    							Pat

    
.12>  I would
.12>think that any person who booked a smoker and a non-smoker in a
.12>room would be violating the spirit if not the letter of that policy.

    That's nice in theory...in practice,the DEC training coordinator
    merely tells Princeton Park that a student is coming in,then they
    (the apartment management) make the assignment.Until DEC owns
    apartments of it's own,that's how it'll be.

    re: 14
    
    Oh yeah, I remember that place.  Last time I stayed there, the lights
    in the bathroom didn't work, the place was filthy and smelled like
    the inside of an old tennis shoe, and the black-and-white tv had
    a coat-hanger for an antenna.  That was the last time I ever stayed
    there.  If I *have* to go to Bedford for training, I usually contrive
    to stay at the HoJo's down by the Mall.  Fortunately, more and more
    of the high-level classes are being taught at places like the CSC,
    ACT's and Area HQ's.
    
    On the double-occupancy rule, I just spent a week sharing with a
    fellow worker at Network U.  Both of us know each other pretty
    well, so we didn't see any major problems.  But I developed a
    head-cold during the week, and felt sorry for my roomate that
    he had to share with me under those conditions.  We are still
    friends, but I can see that even the most well-intentioned
    people can have problems when sharing rooms.
    
    Personally, I consider the whole thing a complete invasion of my
    privacy, and an unacceptable imposition.  I do not work for DEC
    24 hours a day, and I don't especially enjoy travelling on company
    business in the first place.  My job description calls for a certain
    amount of travelling, but it doesn't say anything about having to
    do so under these types of conditions.
    
    If they want to save money, fine.  I have no objection to staying
    at any establishment that is clean and relatively secure, whether
    it's a Holiday Inn, or whatever.  I believe the cost guidelines
    laid out in the P&P are quite adequate for most travel requirements.
    But I see no reason to have these cost-cutting procedures (which
    by the way are only for the peons, not the higher-ranking sorts)
    cut into my personal life any more than they already do.
    
    Geoff
    

I have never heard of room sharing in Digital Europe. Is this just a U.S. 
thing?

Dave.

    There are still a few of us who actually stayed at Rosie's on Railroad
    street.  Now there was DEC housing at it's best.  After that it
    is difficult to fault any other arrangements.  I don't like to share
    housing and lately I haven't.  I guess I could tell a couple of
    war stories here about former DEC housing places but I prefer to
    tell about Pete, my roomate in the Air Force a long time ago. 
    
    Pete couldn't sleep with the light out.  Pete couldn't sleep unless
    he had the radio on.  Pete talked in his sleep...in fact he held
    entire conversationa and even arguments!  It took me six months
    to get rid of Pete.  I really wanted to reenlist but was afraid
    I would have to endure Pete again.
    
    Then there was John.  We shared a room at the Utica Hotel while
    attending a Univac school in upstate New York.  John wasn't a bad
    guy but he NEVER stopped talking.  One night I had had enough so
    I put on my coat and walked out into the 0 degree (f) weather and
    took a walk.  John put on his coat and we walked up Genessee street
    together, me walking ...him talkin'.  
    
    Now I live alone.  I see no reason why I should have to even risk
    another dreadful experience to save the company a few bucks.  
    (I just got back from three trips and I guess we are talking major
    expense corporation wide)  Given a choice, It'll take a major threat
    to get me to share a room, again!
    

    I managed to spend many weeks in Bedford without ever experiencing
    those dreaded apartments!  As a software specialist, I went to my
    district manager and offered a deal, which he accepted:  You let me
    stay in a decent hotel for the two week course, and I'll do enough
    billable consulting at night and on the weekend in the Bedford lab to
    MORE THAN pay for the cost of the hotel.  It worked out very nicely
    for both of us.
    
    						Pat 

	Pat, you forgot to mention that Gerald's usual travel policy was to 
have you hitchhike, carry a sleeping bag, and forage for nuts and berries in
the woods at night! 

:>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  :>)  

re .19

Requiring people to drive 400 miles within the district rather than fly may
seem ridiculous, but people put up with it.

And it got him promoted to VP!

/john

RE: .20

>Requiring people to drive 400 miles within the district rather than fly may
>seem ridiculous, but people put up with it.
>
>And it got him promoted to VP!

Not to turn this into a rathole, but...It was almost as quick to drive to
Atlanta from Charlotte (220 mi) than to drive to airport/fly/rent car/drive
from airport. So that's a 400-mile round-trip which people STILL drive. 

As for VP, I don't suppose the "Charlotte Package" (aka ALL-IN-1) could
have had anything to do with it, eh?  :^)

Back to the topic at hand - room sharing:

The only times I've been asked to share a room, I've arranged to share
with someone I knew (and didn't have any snoring/smoking factor) or
told the person booking rooms that I'd make my own reservations at another
hotel. I've ALWAYS gotten a hotel cheaper than the room-sharing price
quoted to me by the organizers of whatever event. And no roommate.

K.

    I can't say I'm excited about the room sharing that occasionally
    comes up, but there are usually some creative ways to get around
    it.  Lots of great suggestions have already been posted - like most
    things around DEC, everything is negotiable.
    
    Next time you're faced with this 'rule', rent the videotape of 'Planes,
    Trains and Automobiles' for your manager.
    
    tim

    I've never shared a hotel room while travelling on company business,
    and I don't intend to start now.  This includes two DECvilles and
    two DECworlds.  As Pat mentioned, I don't work for Digital 24 hours
    a day, and if I want some privacy or time to myself after working
    a normal 16-hour day while out of town on business, I don't want
    to have to argue with a roomie about what to watch on TV, or to
    turn OFF the TV so I can read (maybe even documentation), etc.
    
    If room-sharing is to become the norm, then my business travel days
    for Digital are ended.  I *did* (in another life) share one of those
    Lowell apartments while attending a Bedford class.  My roomie brought
    home a lady almost every night.  Near the end of the 3 weeks, he
    had the courtesy to tell me that the lady he had brought home a
    few nights ago was married, and that her hubby was looking for him.
    I moved to a hotel for the remaining 2 nights, and told my manager
    the story.  He said that I could never have made up something that
    strange, and OK'd the 2 nights in the hotel!
    
    Jon

    re: .22
    
>    Next time you're faced with this 'rule', rent the videotape of 'Planes,
>    Trains and Automobiles' for your manager.

    What difference would this make?  *He* doesn't have to share a room,
    just the poor slobs who didn't have the foresight to get promoted
    to Manager, Consultant, or other sufficiently privileged title.

    This is what has got quite a few people steamed ...
    
    Geoff

    I don't snore.  However -- I do talk and *walk* in my sleep!  I
    recently went back for the BOIS seminar and was told I would be
    sharing a room.  Needless to say, having a roommate under these
    circumstances could be quite embarassing for the both of us!
           
    I did luck out and happen to get a room all to myself.  But if I
    hadn't, I would have looked else where for lodging.
                             
    My privacy is a must!    
                             
    Colleen                  

A few years ago I worked on a project for the British Ministry
of Defense.
The game plan was to develop software, build hardware, and install
the system in the UK.
I was looking forward to 6 months in England until my manager
decided that he would rent a six room house, a housekeeper/cook and
a van/bus for transport, and the project team would all live 
together.

The scheme fell through, but I couldn't trust him anymore and
stayed home.

     					Jack

    Re .26:
    
    I can see why you wouldn't want that degree of extended togetherness,
    particularly if you wouldn't get a private room/bath. (That's not
    really clear, though, from .26.) But what does that have to do with
    forever not trusting the manager who arranged it? Had he made promises
    to the contrary? 

    re. the roommate who "brought home a lady almost every night"
    
    Did they, um, visit with one another with you in the room?  Or did
    you use the old college sock-on-the-doorknob routine?  I can't imagine
    anyone being *that* thoughtless, or carrying on in front of someone
    else and being able to enjoy it.

    Back for a moment to the inequity of managers having rooms to
    themselves while those below the rank of manager have to share.

    Is that any different from the fact that Area Managers and above fly
    first class in this day of cost-cutting, while those below that rank
    fly coach (when the expense crunch doesn't require them to drive, that
    is!!). 
    
    							Pat

    re .28
    
    The apartments in Lowell were two-bedroom apts, so no "sock on the
    doorknob" was required.  Yes, the walls were very thin, but technically
    speaking, two separate rooms.  I didn't fall asleep before he got
    home every night, but on the nights that I did, I just hope that
    he and his friend enjoyed my high-decibel snoring.
    
    Jon

>> Note 595.9 by TLE::SAVAGE 

   
>>    Neil (who also roughs it by sleeping in the woods without a bug
>>    net - if you think snorers and smokers are bad, try choruses of
>>    mosquitos!)


Neil Savage.  Great name for an outdoorsman!

Victor

P.S. I also do not have any difficulty with doubling up. Has anyone ever
though of using earplugs or blinds?

    Ear plugs that fit in the ear (and are reasonable to wear to bed) won't
    help. They reduce the high-frequency components of noise and do not
    greatly attenuate the low-frequency components. All the snorers I have
    heard are in the basso-profundo range. I have never heard anybody snore
    a high C.
    
    (In any case, it's not the loud chorus of mosquitos that is itself bad.
    It's what those mosquitos will do next, and its anticipation, that
    causes the problem. Mosquito noise six inches away outside a net
    doesn't bother me at all.)
    
    Eye shades and ear plugs don't help with smoke. (No, a nose plug won't
    help. For many, including me, its the body's reaction to the smoke that
    hurts. The smell, while annoying like mosquito noise, is only an
    indicator of what happens next.)
    
    I don't believe I should have to put up with bright lights, noise, or
    smoke. If Digital is paying for me to work, then Digital can pay for me
    to get some sleep so I can work. 

    I find that the company is quite accommodating.  They ask, on the
    little form we use, if I would prefer to share with a smoker or
    non-smoker.  I usually cross them both out and pencil in "X necrophile"
    and rarely have a problem with room sharing.

    re .33
    
    OK, I'll bite, I must lead a sheltered life: what is "X necrophile"?
    
    Jon

        My interpretation:
        
        The "X" is like putting an "X" in a box on a form.  "Necrophile"
        is a word you can look up in the dictionary; briefly, it is
        a term that can be used to describe someone who loves corpses,
        either in the platonic sense or otherwise.
        
        Tom

    It depends on your values. At least corpses don't snore, need light, or
    use all the hot water. 

    I had to chuckle while reading about room sharing and its implications
    for egalitarian treatment vs. privacy and comfort.
    
    You might be interested to learn that in the US Navy, you have to
    be either  a commanding officer or rank as O-6/captain (equivalent
    to colonel in the Army) to rate a private room in even a typically
    decrepit Navy BOQ. 
    
    To equate that to DEC, you would have to be a VP to rate your own
    hotel room.
    
    
    KBS
    

  > You might be interested to learn that in the US Navy, you have to be
  > either  a commanding officer or rank as O-6/captain (equivalent to
  > colonel in the Army) to rate a private room in even a typically
  > decrepit Navy BOQ. 
    
    An *excellent* reason (in my humble opinion) not to join the Navy!
    
    							(^:  Pat  :^)

  > You might be interested to learn that in the US Navy, you have to be
  > either  a commanding officer or rank as O-6/captain (equivalent to
  > colonel in the Army) to rate a private room in even a typically
  > decrepit Navy BOQ. 

    If you really enjoy being treated like this, go to work for EDS!
    I didn't join this company to work for it 24 hours a day!
    
    Geoff

    Re: < Note 595.38 by USMRW5::KSHERMAN "Barnacle 1" >
        
  > You might be interested to learn that in the US Navy, you have to
  > be either  a commanding officer or rank as O-6/captain (equivalent
  > to colonel in the Army) to rate a private room in even a typically
  > decrepit Navy BOQ. 

    I have to take exception to this.  As an Junior Officer I stayed
    in many, many BOQ's and motels across the country in Navy, Air Force,
    Army, and Coast Guard installations.  I can only recall once during
    that time when I had a roommate...the Coast Guard base at Governer's
    Island, New York.
    
    However, enlisted men below the rate of E-6 typically have to stay
    in 2 to 16 person rooms.  E-7 and above get 1 or 2 person rooms.
    
    I would make a comparison that to relate that to the field in DEC,
    a Junior Office would be approximately the equivalent of a Unit
    Manager, and an E-6 about a SWS-2.

    Anyone who feels they have a different feeling about this, I know
    you will feel free to express it.

    Doug

RE: .-1

	Just a minor point of clarification, and then maybe the military drift 
of this note can be refocused to real DEC issues.

	Doug, I agree with the original point about *B* OQ's, that is Bachelor
Officer Quarters, in that I lived in one when I first got to an air base as a
2nd-louie, and had to room with a major, who happened to command the base comm
unit.  BOQ's are "permanent" quarters, on-base housing for single parties 
(male and female).  Space was usually limited, and there were always willing 
occupants.

	*V* OQ's, or Visiting Officer Quarters, were usually more like motels;
unless there was a severe shortage of rooms, you got a single. 

	At least, that's the Air Force view!

    Let me clarify ...
    
    I was speaking strictly about the Navy (as a Navy man). Navy quarters
    are almost uniformly crummy, and room sharing is the norm for both
    enlisted and officer. The Air Force, on the other extreme, has far
    better quarters and room sharing among senior enlisted or officer
    is almost unheard of. But my original point stands: room sharing
    is not necessarily related to rank within an organization. Let me
    use a computer industry example.
    
    Back in 1975 I took my first computer industry job with NCR. I was
    one of six people to be hired for the New England Region office
    out of 515 applicants. Pretty flattering. All six of us were
    hard-charging young MBAs and half were also former military. 
    Then NCR sent us to training at ...
    
    Sugar Camp! NCR (at least in those days) put every new sales hire
    through its own boot camp, located on Dayton, OH, and named after
    the field of sugar maples that had once stood on the site. For five
    weeks we were housed in the most filthy, decrepit, noisy flea bag
    hotels in Dayton ( and that covers a LOT of ground), several to
    a room. Pipes banged all night; hookers and pushers prowled the
    halls; the water in tha bathrooms was YELLOW. Every morning at 5:30
    sharp a bus pulled up outside the hotel and we boarded for the trip
    through mean streets to Sugar Camp. At Sugar Camp we learned a great
    deal: that 'at NCR, you don't sell -- you allow the customer to buy;'
    that wearing green showed the customer you were insincere; that
    NCR was giving us young MBA pukes free training and a smashing
    salary of $ 211 for a minimum 50 hour week, plus a whole 1 1/2% of 
    sales (net) out of the  
    goodness of its heart; etc. etc.
                     
    So everything is relative, guys.
    
    
    kbs
    
                

    do you realize that if all of the floor surface in all of the ships
    in all of the navies were put together and scrubbed by all of the
    swab jockeys one day...the next day they could do all of the streets
    Boston.  The point?  Conservation!  The Navy conserves space and
    we conserve something else...I don't know what...maybe self respect.

    Excuse me, but don't you people believe this has gone far away from
    the intended topic of the discussion?

    - Vikas

    Much of the topic has discussed what people have to put up with and
    what they are willing to put up with. Past experience greatly
    influences peoples expectations and coping skills. Several of those who
    have military experience have discussed "normal" housing conditions
    considerably worse than many of us have ever had to live with. They
    seem somewhat more tolerant than the rest of us, possibly due to the
    broader experience.
    
    I think the military housing stories are relevant as long as they don't
    turn into "I can top that" war stories. 

    Re: .47 by EAGLE1::EGGERS:
    
     Well said, Tom!
    
     --- From a former line officer, USNR

    When I was in the Army and got tired of sharing a room, I kicked
    in with some other guys and rented a villa.  I know people who travel
    for DEC who will only fly first class - pay the difference or use
    other methods.  On room sharing in general, I have not shared a
    room with anyone but my wife in many years (don't even have that
    one any more).  Even on a vacation trip with an old friend, he and
    I decided to have seperate motel rooms.  If I'm willing to pay for
    it myself and DEC ain't, then there is something very wrong.
    
    CWS

    re> .46
    
    O.K. Vikas!!!  The day I am "required " to share a romm on business
    travel is the day I stop saying "O.K.!"
    
    

    On camping trips I sleep in a tent.
    
    In the military I sleep in a tent, scummy private room, hotel or
    barracks.  The military doesnt even pretend to be in the employee
    satisfaction business.  Also, the Army, Navy or whatever owns you
    24 hours a day.  This is official policy.
    
    In my private life, I do not share sleeping quarters with co-workers
    or casual friends.  I expect a little privacy about some things.
    
    On business trips, when I am already making a sacifice by giving
    up the things I do during non-work hours, I expect the same privacy
    I have at home.  
        
    By the way, I once showed up for two weeks Army training and was
    sent to a hotel because there were no military quarters available.
    Upon arriving at the hotel, I was told that I couldn't check in
    without a roommate because the Army had decided that we would share
    rooms.  I told them that I didn't have a roommate and they told
    me that I was supposed to wait in the lobby until one (total stranger)
    arrived.  They also mentioned that they thought there was someone in 
    the bar waiting for a roommate.  I pictured myself walking into
    the bar at 11:00 pm and calling out "Hey, anyone want to share a
    room?".  Despite being a somewhat liberal person I decided against
    it and made other arrangements.   
   
    Having put up with this sort off thing in the Army, doesn't make
    me the least bit more inclined to do it as a civilian.  Many people
    have "war" stories about their college lifestyle.  It doesnt make
    them more inclined to want to live that way now.
    
    Usually when I travel on business I pay the full hotel rate or at
    best the generic "corporate" rate.  Sometimes I have noticed that
    the corporate rate is higher that the best regular rate.  With all
    the business traveling that Digital employees do, why can't we get 
    discount rates with a few major hotel chains?  Other corporations
    in this area do.  I feel like I am being asked to make up for a
    lack of industry on the part of someone else.   
            
    

    ---------
    Regarding the earlier note comparing a SWS-2 to an E-6.  Boy have
    I been demoted!  We are talking non college educated, maybe 1-2
    years of technical training.
      

    Re: < Note 595.51 by INFACT::GREENBERG "Wendy Greenberg" >

 >   Regarding the earlier note comparing a SWS-2 to an E-6.  Boy have
 >   I been demoted!  We are talking non college educated, maybe 1-2
 >   years of technical training.
      
    I did have some difficulty trying to come up with the proper analogy.
    However, although college education is a highly relied upon indicator
    of where you might stand (military, civilian or whatever), it does
    not always apply.
    
    Most of the E-6's I knew were very intelligent or at least experienced.
    Even those who had BS, MS, and Doctorate degrees.
    
    On the other hand, I've heard of software people who are very
    high in their organization, who never went to college at all.
    
    In fact, many, many years ago, some companies preferred hiring
    non-college educated people who had "a way" with computers (hardware
    and software), because they were not "tainted".
    
    Sorry to digress from the original topic, but I thought it necessary
    to clarify the reason for my original comparison, which is a foundation
    for my original response.
    
    Doug

    All the noise about the room sharing etc, so that the company can
    save few drops in the ocean...
    
    I wonder how much the comapany will save on all those BOONDOGLE
    trips and lavish dinners taken by few, in the name of entertaining
    a customer ???!!!!.. 

                                                    
    

    I guess the whole issue is really freedom of choice - those of you
    that want to share with total strangers: go ahead if this is what
    turns you on!  But for the (I think) majority of us who have
    established a lifestyle of our choosing, being thrown into a totally
    different lifestyle while on a business trip is *most* disconcerting.
    
    There are so many conflicts, such as sleep schedules, bathroom
    etiquette, smoking, TV watching, talking, snoring, visitors, lights,
    drinking, getting sick, eating in the room, sexual advances (real
    or perceived), and others, that IT JUST ADDS TOO MUCH STRESS TO
    THE TRIP!  
    
    What irritates me especially is when you know you are going to an
    event and you make your OWN reservations for a single room, and
    DEC people go and change you to a double!!  NO WAY do I think I
    have to commute just because some insensitive idiot changed a
    reservation that I made, but that is the only choice - then when
    you want to rest in the middle of the day or whatever, you can't:
    you're stuck at the event for the whole day!  The next time this
    happens, I am going to make a reservation under Mr and Mrs, and
    just tell them my wife couldn't make it!! HA!
    
    I don't think that a company that NETS $400,000,000 a quarter needs
    to stress out employees when they travel.  "Do what's right," not
    what's the least expensive!
    
    Larry

I've an upcoming trip to the NE, and I suspect we will be doing the old
room sharing trick.  I must say that I'd rather stay at the Red Roof Inn
down the road a piece, for less money and accomodations, than split the
costs of a higher priced room.  I'm not even asking for the Hilton ... 

                                     :-)

I just like to have my space and a little peace and quiet of my own after
a long day.  And that's simply not possible rooming with someone.

    Even tho this is an old session, I have to comment.  After 15 years
    with DEC I ran into my first room sharing situation when I joined
    the Target Sales Force in '86.  It was at our first quarterly meeting
    in Atlanta, and the reservations were made for us.  I simply refused
    to share, confronted my manager with that fact, and was granted
    an exception.  Of course the word got out, and others did the same
    thing, which made me the bad guy.  Those who wanted to move to a
    cheaper hotel were told they couldn't as the rooming arrangements
    at the very plush place we were in were part of the "package".
    Of course, once again this didn't apply to management and
    administrative staff -- only the poor sales slobs.
    
    I feel very strongly that this is a massive imposition on my personal
    space, and I would take the same position again if it ever came
    up.

    Its amusing that a company which disapproves of employee liaisons
    outside of work would have such a policy.  However...
    
    I will not share.  I will just not go.  It was not mentioned in
    advance of my accepting my position, so...  Besides, if Digital
    is really trying to save money and not just be some kind of corporate
    caste system, these things could be held at cheaper hotels,
    couldn't they?
    
    Interestingly, one of the courses I attended, those who shared got
    the same rooms as those who did not - two double beds, etc.  They
    paid $85 each per night, the solo's paid $95.  I'm registered on
    another this month, and it's openly stated that sharing or not,
    each person pays the same.  The hotels have obviously seen the policy
    and recognize it's bureaucratic inflexibility for what it is.
                  
    Don

re:58
    Its amusing that a company which disapproves of employee liaisons
    outside of work would have such a policy.
    
    
    I'm curious - what do you know that says "disapproves ... outside
    of work"?  I've never heard that before - in fact all the evidence
    I have ever seen or heard is exactly the opposite!!!  I've read
    a study by a psycologist that said that DEC was "the most incestuous
    company in New England".

    
    	   There was a time when I used to enjoy going on training
    	trips for Digital.  It was a sort of unofficial vacation,
    	a chance to focus on only one thing for a change... getting
    	educated.  
    
    	   Things have changed, however.  I no longer enjoy going
    	on training trips, and am actively avoiding most symposia
    	now.  Why?  Because Digital has made this particular form
    	of business travel quite an unpleasant thing to endure.
    
    	   Who was the brilliant person that thought up the idea
    	of roommates, anyway?  Clearly, they are high enough on
    	the management chain that they never have to double-up,
    	or they'd know by now what a bad idea it is.  They always
    	promise to pair non-smokers with non-smokers... so why is
    	it that I, a chain-smoker, always get paired with a rabid
    	non-smoker?  It's happened three times out of three now,
    	and each time I have complained.  I know for a fact that
    	my personnel data sheet lists me as a smoker.  I made sure
    	of that.  Still, they always screw up.
    
    	   These days, when a symposium comes along that I just
    	can't miss, I always make my own hotel arrangements and
    	bite the difference in cost (usually negligible, when 
    	compared to the discomfort a roommate causes).  I refuse
    	to suffer the indignity Digital demands of me.
    
    	   So now I get word that Digital University Institute
    	of Technology is opening for business, and the same dumb
    	rules are in place... no single rooms.  Furthermore, they
    	won't let us rent cars.  We have to take the busses.  
    	Now they're offering three mandatory meals a day, and
    	you can't even elect to go out to a decent restaurant
    	without incurring personal expenses.
    
    	   I understand that we're trying to tighten our belts.
    	I can appreciate the need to cut costs.  But why do the
    	cuts ALWAYS come at the cost of the comfort of the 
    	employees, and why do the same rules not apply to 
    	management?  If the savings are that significant to 
    	management, then surely they too can bite the same
    	bitter pill they've handed to the rest of us.
    
    	   In some cases, these symposia are virtually mandatory.
    	In such cases, the rules should be relaxed, not tightened.
    	If I *MUST* attend, then certain provisions should be made
    	to allow for my comfort.  It serves no purpose to send me 
    	into an environment that is not conducive to learning if
    	the intent of the trip is to educate me.  Roommates 
    	distract me from reading course materials at night.  Their
    	complaints about my smoking serve only to turn my mind
    	completely from my studies.  Hunger (as a result of a 
    	poorly planned set of mandatory meals) does not enhance
    	my ability to concentrate on the lessons/labs.  
    
    	   Look, if the objective is simply to save money I have
    	a much better plan.  Give me a hard-dollar budget for
    	the trip, and let me set things up for myself.  Those 
    	catered meals usually cost about the same per-person
    	as a decent meal at a real restaurant, so why not let
    	me order what I like?  Those expensive double rooms
    	are usually more costly than two singles at a place 
    	maybe a mile from the training center, so why not let
    	me get one of those comfortable rooms?  If I exceed the 
    	budget for the trip, I'll take the loss graciously...
    	since I was allowed to CHOOSE how the money was spent.
    	I'll bet in the end, I can save the company a heck of
    	a lot more than they can with these stupid cost saving
    	measures, and be a lot happier for having done so.  
    	Forcing me to accept substandard arrangements serves 
    	no purpose at all.
    
    	- Greg

    I too have a problem with this, and would rather have my *own* room at
    a Red-Roof-Inn-style hotel rather than share a room at a Marriott or
    Hyatt-style hotel.  But I daresay that you haven't even begun to see
    inconvenience or discomfort until you've stayed at the DEC-owned
    apartments in Lowell....what's that word, "epitome"...
    
    At any rate, this topic has been discussed at length in note 595.* in
    this conference.
    
    Jon

    re:  Greg's ideas about per-diem budgets ...
    
    I know of several companies who practice this sort of expense
    management, as do most of the local and state government agencies
    hereabouts.  There are both benefits and drawbacks to this scheme
    of things, most of which center around someone trying to make money
    off of the deal.  There will always be the employee who stays at
    a friend's house or pulls some other manuever to try and pocket as
    much of the per-diem money as he can, and there will always be cost
    center managers who will "adjust" the per-diem amount to try and
    save a few extra dollars to make his margin number look really good.
    Under most circumstances, the per-diem system is more work and bother
    than it's worth, except ...
    
    I think it *should* be an option for things like DU, where attendance
    is mandatory, and little or no regard is shown for the employee whose
    personal life is being infringed upon for the company's sole benefit.
    I don't share a room in my own personal life (at least with people I
    don't know *real* well), nor do I let other people decide what I can
    eat and where I can go on my own time.
    
    I have come to realize over time that this is a personality trait that
    is not shared by everyone;  some people could care less about these
    things (I guess they spent time in the Army) and some people are glad
    to leave it to the company to decide these things for them.  So I guess
    that those of us who think it's an uncalled-for imposition will have to
    deal with it on an individual basis.  I hear that there have been quite
    a few "unique" expense reports submitted by the Sales force after their
    stay at DEC University, so it will be interesting to see how SWS deals
    with the aftermath ...
    
    Geoff
    

    re: .60 Who was the brilliant person that thought up the idea
            of roommates, anyway?  Clearly, they are high enough on
            the management chain that they never have to double-up,
    
    I know of several VP and VP-direct report "woods" meetings that
    also did this room sharing. 

A manager I once worked with told his group about sharing a room with Ken at a
woods meeting in Maine several years ago.  At the time he was blithely ignorant
of some things most of us know about Ken.

Just before going to bed he pulled out a bottle and asked Ken if he wanted a
nightcap as well...

He quickly found out that Ken disapproved of alcohol.

/john

    
    	   Geoff broached an interesting subject a couple of notes
    	back.  He mentioned that he does not share a room in his 
    	personal life, and while some might consider it no imposition,
    	others (including myself) do.  Like Geoff, I live alone and
    	much prefer it that way.  I don't deal well with other people
    	in my private space.
    
    	   I don't really care whether the company, as a whole, understands
    	my situation, so long as provisions are made for people who don't
    	feel comfortable doubling up.
    
    	   In all honesty, I have been able to circumvent the double-up
    	rule a couple of times, though it required some frank discussions
    	with management that might have best been avoided.  Why should 
    	crap like this be forced to creep into my relationship with my
    	supervisors.  Why should my need for privacy during off hours
    	be an issue that Digital requires me to get permission for?
    
    	   Some things are beyond the scope of my duties to the company.
    	Requiring me to attend a seminar is one thing, but requiring me 
    	to give up my privacy while doing so is quite another.  I will
    	doubtless go to Digital University.  If I am forced to double-up
    	I will continue to privately make other arrangements.  (You'd 
    	be surprised how many potential roommates will offer to cover
    	half the difference for you, just so they too can have a private
    	room.)
    
    	   There is absolutely no reason for this degree of intrusion
    	into our personal lives.  I, for one, will push back wherever
    	possible.  I have come too far to allow this sort of intrusion
    	to go unchallenged.  I have earned more respect than that. 
    
    	   I will work with the compay to cut costs, but I will not do 
    	so at the expense of my privacy and autonomy.
    
    	- Greg

    re:  <<< Note 595.66 by HSSWS1::GREG "The Texas Chainsaw" >>>
    
>    	Geoff broached an interesting subject a couple of notes
>   	back.  He mentioned that he does not share a room in his 
    
    I sure that I would be much more amenable to the idea if the
    Company didn't slavisly follow some outmoded Victorian principles
    when it comes to deciding who rooms with whom ... :^)
    
    Seriously, I wonder what they would say if I and a female Digital
    employee (who was not my spouse) asked to room together.  I've
    seen this happen on an informal basis from time to time, but I doubt
    that management was "officially" aware of it.  There are many locales
    (and even some states) where this may actually still be illegal, but
    I would presume that New England would be somewhat more liberal about
    such things.  Anyway, it boils down to gender discrimination, which
    seems to be even more acceptable here in the Eighties than it was in
    the Seventies.  Yet another step backwards ...
    
    Geoff

    The way I read the announcement for DU.IT, your local cost center does
    not pay for hotel or meals.  This is billed directly to DEC by the
    hotel.  Thus, if you submit an expense report for DU.IT with
    alternative hotel and/or meals it may (will?) be denied.

    Re: .66:                              
    
>    	I will continue to privately make other arrangements.  (You'd 
>    	be surprised how many potential roommates will offer to cover
>    	half the difference for you, just so they too can have a private
>    	room.)
    
    I think you've got the germ of a solution here; those who feel that
    room doubling constitutes an invasion of privacy should make up the
    difference out of their own pocket.
    
    [Just be glad I'm not in charge here. I'd give any complainers private
    accommodations all right -- a general-issue pup tent, and a roll of
    closed-cell foam padding!]

    re: .67 (Geoff)
    
    	   I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has seen the 
    	gender discrimination.
    
    re: .69 (Savage)
    
    	   A pup ten would be better than the arrangements being
    	made for DU-IT, from my point of view.
    
    	   Seriously, folks.  I know I'm like a lone voice in a
    	howling wind here, but my needs MUST be considered as well.
    	You say any expense vouchers for DU-IT will be denied?
    	Fine, I won't go then.  I'll be conveniently "too busy" to
    	attend.
    
    	   I mean really, what are we anyway?  Are we a capitalist 
    	company or a marxist dictatorship?  Why are our rights 
    	being squashed so freely?  It can't be cost alone, or
    	my solution (budgeted trips) would be just as viable a
    	solution as these degrading rules.
    
    	- Greg

.66 right on{ my feelings exactly I WANT MY SPACE.....
    .67  interes{ing thoughts
    .69  {lad it is not up to you{

    
    I probably won't score any points for this arguement, but I can't let
    it go any longer ...
    
    I'm sorry, but I think we're absolutely spoiled at DEC! Being human, I
    would naturally _prefer_ to have a single room, but when the company
    _occasionally_ asks me to double-up to save us some money, I will
    gladly oblige. In the 8 years+ I've been at DEC, I have been asked to
    "double-up" exactly one time. This meant I had to sleep in the same
    room with "a stranger" for 3 whole nights!! 
    
    Big deal. I actually got to talk to another human being that I had
    never  talked to before for about 2 hours  (the sum total of the time
    we spent  in the same room together over 3 days) and I actually learned
    a few things from him during those short converstations.
 
    At my previous employer, doubling-up was considered SOP (standard
    operating procedure). If you decided to try to circumvent the system
    with some of the creative ideas mentioned in previous notes, not only
    was your expense report not approved, you were made to feel like a
    wierdo for not complying with the company's wishes and intent around
    how YOU spent THEIR money.
 
    It would do you no good to pi$$ and moan because because your roommate
    smoked and you didn't.  You were expected to be mature enough to "work
    it out" yourself. The only time you were granted a single was when you 
    reached a senior management level, or when you were traveling for an
    extensive period of time. (For example, I participated in the Fall
    Kickoff meetings for 3 consecutive years, going from city to city for
    about 6 weeks straight [home on weekends] ... we got  singles).
 
    Wake up! We are not in the same economic climate we were 5-10 years
    ago. We ARE NOT making our sales numbers, expenses are out of control,
    people are being asked to retire early, and nobody in the US is getting any
    pay  increases,  and we all need to help. I don't know how many sales
    support people we have in the field, but if there are 5,000 of them to
    house for 5 days, and we spend $95 each for a single room, that
    represents over $2.3 million dollars. If we assign them all roommates,
    we can save the company over a million dollars. That would pay for
    almost HALF of my organization's operating expenses for a year. 
    

    To those with legitimate medical reasons to have a single room (and I'm
    sure they exist) and those who it bothers so much to share a room that
    they would be willing to pay the difference out of their own pocket, I
    think the company needs to find a way to accomodate your special needs.
    I would also concur (having lived this life once myself) that those
    who are "living out of a suitcase" have some additional latitude.
    
 
    The rest of us have an opportunity to help the company get our pay
    increases back on schedule.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
    
    

    Digital's not in charge here.  It takes both Digital and the employee
    to agree for there to be an agreement.
    
    One person complained about the employee wanting a say in how Digital's
    money is spent.  But it's a mutual situation; Digital has to give that
    compromise if it wants a say in how the employee's life is spent.
    
    You can't put somebody in a pup-tent.  You can only offer it to them.
    Try it and you'll probably find it is not accepted -- and that means
    you won't get what you wanted either.
    
    Employees are not chattel.  
    
    
    				-- edp

    Let's see now .... my transportation, meals and even sleeping
    arrangements are company controlled.  I guess that means I'm working
    24 hours a day.  So at 5.5 days DUIT works out to 132 hours for
    the week.  Hmmmm ... that will be an interesting overtime claim!    

    re: .72 (Early)
    
    	   I notice you overlooked my proposed solution, which saves
    	the company precisely the same amount, while still allowing 
    	me privacy and autonomy.  That high horse you're riding is 
    	lame.  My offer to cover any difference in cost is real, and
    	has been taken up in the past.  I am not advocating costing 
    	the company more money, I am advocating, nay demanding my 
    	right to privacy.
    
    	   You seem happy enough doubling-up.  That is the way you
    	choose to serve the eompany's interest in cost reductions.
    	I would prefer to be given a choice.  I do not like being
    	forced to select just one unsuitable option, when better
    	options exist.
    
    	   You say you've only had to face this situation once?  I've
    	already faced it at least four times.  Every VAX/VAXCluster
    	symposium is structured this way, and they last 5 days. Mandatory 
    	District business meetings are structured this way (these days), 
    	and they last two days.  Now DU-IT is coming along (also 
    	mandatory), and they're doing it again... for another five to
    	ten day period (depending on what you need to study).  Only
    	now they've added the new rules... no rental cars and no decent
    	meals.
    
    	   As Eric said, we are employees, not chattle.  The company 
    	makes a big noise about valueing differences... well, here's
    	my difference... I need privacy.  I may be among the most
    	outspoken in support of that need, but I am certainly not alone
    	in experiencing it.  Anyone who's been single as long as I have
    	values their privacy above almost everything else.  The challenge
    	for Digital is to show their commitment to the stated principles,
    	and value that difference accordingly.  I have proposed a method
    	by which this could be accomplished at no expense to the 
    	company.  Either offer reasons why my plan won't work or offer
    	an alternative which answers the company's needs as well as my
    	own.  Chastising me for being unwilling to accept no-choice will
    	solve nothing.
    
    	- Greg

    re .75
    I also agree strongly with Greg.  Basically, to attend DU.IT will
    require 6 days and nights of my time, according to the schedule and
    rules.  During that time, I sure the company assumes I'm fully
    attentive and able to absorb as much as possible.  After eating hotel
    CATERED food for a week, few diversions, and possibly little sleep, I
    doubt either the company's or my best interests have been met.  As Greg
    says, give me a budget, I'll feel better, and the company will come out
    ahead.  IMO, this policy is an example of the overall problems at DEC
    (the way decisions are made and implemented).  
    
    Is there any place to direct our concerns that might be able to do 
    something about it?

    Re: .72:
    
    Well, I share much of the feelings you expressed.  There are folks out
    there with much different values. Perhaps prolonged solitude has
    spoiled them for accepting close contact with strangers. We can't
    change them with edicts, but the corporation can show its own
    toleration for 'valuing differences' by allowing them to find their own
    accommodations and make up the difference out of their own pockets.
    IMHO, that's a reasonable compromise. As the gentleman said in .75, it
    would cost the company nothing, and may result in better morale.

    RE: .-1
>                   -< Why are we so afraid of human contact? >-
    
    Let's distinguish between different forms of human contact here, OK?
    
    I happily share living quarters with my husband.  I enjoy that human
    contact.
    
    I work with other Digits and get along fine with them.  I enjoy that
    human contact.
    
    I have friends, and invite them into my home on occasion.  I enjoy that
    human contact.
    
    I just object to sharing bathroom and sleeping facilities with a
    complete and total stranger.
    
    Does that *REALLY* make me afraid of human contact?????
    
    							Pat

    re:   <<< Note 595.77 by MLTVAX::SAVAGE "Neil @ Spit Brook" >>>
    
>                                      Perhaps prolonged solitude has
>   spoiled them for accepting close contact with strangers. 
    
    I think you're missing one of the major points:  Digital is mandating
    what, where, and how I spend my personal time, to the point that it is
    no longer *personal* time.  I should have a say in how much Digital can
    infringe on my personal time, even if it is a "CLM" (career-limiting
    decision).  It would be different if I was given that say, but the way
    things are currently structured, there are no options, other than ones
    arrived at by "unique" tactics.  If the Company really desires to exert
    that much control over your life (no matter what the excuse) then where
    do you draw the line?
    
    Geoff
    

    .72 I hear some of what your saying, but we should be given the
    choice of finding our own accomendations if they are cheaper.
    Before DIGITAL I worked for Johnson&Johnson, it was culture shock
    to see what they paided for expense wise (most anything) rather
    than Digital, I can accept that, but do not double me up.
    Let's examine if the trip is really necessary first.

    
    	   To suggest that I fear human contact simply because
    	I don't wish to share my private time is to engage in
    	idle speculation.  I do not fear human contact.  I simply
    	like to keep it in its proper place... public places.
    
    	   I have asked my secretary to see what can be done about
    	keeping me out of DU-IT.  I realize in advance that this
    	will be a career-limiting move, and am willing to accept
    	the consequences.  When my manager returns to the office,
    	I will approach her with my situation and get her input.
    	Unless she shows some willingness to work along with me
    	in overcoming these problems, I may have to actively take
    	measures which will not only limit my career, but put it 
    	in direct jeapordy.
    
    	   Some principles are worth fighting for.  From my perspective,
    	this is one of those issues.  I gather that many (most) of 
    	you share some of my feelings, but do not see it as an issue
    	worthy of such effort and exposure to risk.  I also hear others
    	who feel I am just being silly.  Silly or not, I am simply 
    	expressing my feelings on the matter in a manner most likely
    	to achieve the desired results.  I am entitled to feel as I
    	do, and no edict will alter my feelings (as has been noted 
    	before).  If my career is limited as a result, then that is 
    	how it must be.  If I find it necessary to depart DEC for 
    	greener pastures, it will be with no regrets, and with my
    	integrity intact.
    	   
    	   We each strive after our goals in life, as best we can.
    	One of my goals is to ensure that no person or entity,
    	be it corporate or governmental, shall intrude upon my
    	rights without my express consent.  My employment with
    	Digital may not be construed as express consent any more
    	than my citizenship in the United States or the great state
    	of Texas.
    
    	- Greg

	re .81
	
	You have hit a sore spot!   I am for the first time going
	for training in 2 weeks.  After reading the all of the replies
	to this note, I have desire to cancel.  I don't mind saving the
	company money, but as .81 refered to I mind it more that I have
	to relinquish my privacy to do so!  

	I hope the roomate that I get does not mind that I snore, talk
	in my sleep, like to take long showers, and like to spend a long
	time on the proverbial thrown!

	  (GOD I HOPE I DON'T TALK IN MY SLEEP, WHO KNOWS WHAT I MIGHT SAY!)

	I've been with four other companies, none required you to share a
	room, and all repected your privacy!

	As for next weeks training, I'll see how I like it!  If I don't
	I just won't go for training!  Who suffers?  Me professionally,
	and Digital because the customer is sure to ask me a question
	on some training that I should of had, but did not wan't to go!

	As for upper management not having to share a room!

	WHATS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER.


	- Mike

	P.S.

	Just had a great meal, and time to think it over!  I still
	don't like the idea!

	However, what upper management should have done was send
	around some electronic mail explaining:

		As a cost cutting measure we are now requiring
		ALL personnel on business trips to double up on
		hotel rooms.

	At least you get it directly and say to yourself, well at least
	I'll be helping out the company.  Besides the memo should
	be a Roomate matching service too match people with similar
	interest, people attending the same class, or people from the
	same area!   Seriously!  

	- Mike

    re: .whatever (Greg)
    
    Greg, one doesn't need to be single to cherish privacy. As another
    respondant said, slightly modified - I happily share my sleeping
    quarters with my spouse, and with members of my family at reunions,
    and sometimes when on hunting or fishing trips. My choice, my private
    life, my preferences.          
    
    I, too, am DUIT bound in October.
    
    In a gesture of solidarity, I also will work with my manager to
    alleviate the situation - and if I'm not satisfied, I won't go.
    
    This is pure stuff and nonsense. If costs are so paramount, there
    are many ways to reduce them without imposing on employees' private
    lives.                      
    
    Scooter
    

       RE: .83
       
       	God only know's how much it would cost to implement a roommate
       	matching system. Me, I want a singular room or I don't go. Period.
       	I too live alone and will only room with family and close friends
       	when it's MY choice. If the company wants me to do something away
       	from my home site, then they will provide me with the same
       	level of privacy I enjoy right now.  I'd be willing to make up
       	the difference but I seriously don't believe I should have
       	to.
       
       							mike

There seem to be two quite different points of view in this topic. Some people
really feel that, if it saves the company money, there can be no objection to
doubling up. Others are saying that they find it unpleasant and don't feel they
should be forced to double up.

I'm one of the latter. When I was at school, I slept in a dormitory with others.
When I went on to university, I got a room of my own. Since then, I have
expected privacy in my home. I also expect to be treated reasonably when I
travel on company business.

To be honest, I really HATE doubling up. I can't
really relax when sharing sleeping quarters and bathroom facilities with a
stranger (or even a work acquaintance). Obviously, the way you feel about this
depends a lot on your personality and background. Some extroverts don't mind
parading around unclothed in front of someone of the same sex in a small room.
(A background in the armed forces tends to turn people into extroverts in this
sense). But most people DO. So what do you do? Take turns going into the
bathroom to change? Wait till your roommate is asleep?

Or what if one roommate wants to watch the X-rated video movie, which upsets
the other person? (Please don't jump to any conclusions as to which one I
might be!) Smoking, drinking, even eating room service meals are all examples.

The bottom line is that for many people doubling up is very stressful. Since
business trips, even training, are quite stressful at the best of times, it's
doubly important to have a place where you can retreat, relax in privacy, and
do your own thing - whether it be ringing home (would you care to murmur sweet
nothings into the phone with a colleague ten feet away?), reading, listening
to Mozart or watching "Electric Blue" (or should that be "Yellow"?) It seems
to me that any good psychologist would confirm this. Any bets on whether the
people who set this policy consulted one?

Compulsory hotel meals come several rungs below the single room in my scale
of priorities. Of course I'd like to be able to eat what, where and when I want
and to choose my company. In addition to which, the standard hotel food at
the communal meals is often of the type to be a serious health threat over
the months and years. But if the worst comes to the worst you can just not
go. It's usually possible to pick up some bread, milk and fruit at a shop
and eat these in your room! Or you can do your body a favour and skip a couple
of meals (if it's an overweight body like mine).

Lastly, I really think we should assess the drawbacks of these policies with the
likely savings. To take a similar example, we in Europe are sometimes
discouraged from flying to the States "because it costs too much". True,
business/club class can cost (say) $2000 return. But by travelling coach/
economy, you can get off with (say) $500. Now the policy where I live (UK)
is that you can go club on flights over 5 hours (i.e. any Stateside trip).
Some managers force their employees to go economy anyway. Others, like mine,
urge employees to fly business *so that they will be more effective* and
because they have a balanced view of the pros and cons. The way I see it,
I am happy to negotiate that I travel economy in return for a single room,
a car, and freedom to eat where I want. The company will probably still save
money, I am happy, and I get the training.

Please let's not assume that because Ken Olsen is happy doubling up, everyone is.
If some people really dislike it a lot, let's take that into account. The real
problem is that nowadays policies like this one are just dumped on us from
above without any consultation. That hurts.

/Tom

    
    	   My previous remarks have come from my perspective as a single
    	guy, but I also acknowledge that married people often have the
    	same feelings.  Indeed, one of the guys who offered to 'split the
    	difference' of the cost of a single room with me was himself a
    	married man.  Like me, he just didn't relish the thought of trying
    	to sleep with a stranger in the room.  Neither of us was really
    	anxious to make all the necessary compromises for the sake of 
    	modesty.  (Indeed, I hadn't even come prepared to make such
    	compromises.)
    
    	   I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way.  It
    	might be embarassing to me if I was the only one who felt so
    	strongly on the matter.  But embarassing or not, I have found
    	that being honest with myself about my feelings is the only way
    	I can remain happy and healthy.  Even if I was the sole opponent
    	to the double-up-plan, I would feel compelled to do as I am doing
    	if for no other reason than my own well-being.  If I don't look
    	out for myself, nobody will do so for me.
    
    	- Greg

    TRUST ME!!! even married persons don't like to double up. At least this
    one doesn't. After being married for more than @^ years, I have gotten
    used to sleeping with someone next to me - BUT - when I'm alone I have 
    a tendency to not sleep. I read, watch TV, study, work on models.
    All of these things require the lights to be on or the volume turned up 
    and that translates to disturbing any room mate which I would not like
    to do. I certainly would not want them to disturb me when I finally do 
    manage to fall asleep which means I don't/won't share a room. If I can't 
    have a single I don't take the trip. So far I have been lucky enough to
    not be required to make the choice. 
    
    

    This seems to me to be another example of a penny pinching policy.
    Whereas to really save money managers should be making tough decisions
    like. Nuke that whole organization.
    
    If the company said to me 'We'd like you to share a room to save the
    company money'. I'd say fine. If I find someone I know who is going
    to the same place who doesn't mind sharing a room with me and who I
    don't mind sharing with then fine I will do so. If I don't find such
    a person I get my own room or I don't go.
    
    Also as has been pointed out by many people strangers are 99% likely
    to want to spend their time in different ways. Some like to read, some
    sleep, some watch the television. Well if you are sharing a room and 
    want to do different things you either have to impose on yourself or
    your roommate.
    
    The only way to fight such an ascenine policy is to say NO and make
    sure people that agree with you also say NO. One person saying
    No may make that NO a 'Career Limiting Decision'. A group of people
    saying 'NO' is a whole different ballgame.
    
    Dave

    What ever happened to using DVN as an alternative to every slaes
    support person in the world flying to MA and incurring all those
    expenses.  I'm sure those expenses would more than cover the DVN costs
    and I could stay in the 'hotel' of my choice.
    
    Frank

    As a registrar signing those 'unfortunates' up to go to DU: IT,
    a suggestion to make it *easier* on doubling up (and no, I wouldn't
    like it either, I heard the same gripes about DUSS, but there's
    nought I can personally do):
    
    I see nothing in the confirmation letters suggesting selected roommates
    are out of the question.  For those of you who ARE going regardless,
    perhaps the roommate question *might* be easier if you were able
    to room with a friend going.  Since American Express Travel Services
    is handling all that, when you make your reservations, ask the agent
    that you be roomed with so-and-so (with so and so's permission,
    of course!). Since people have to be booked into rooms somehow,
    doubling up to "order" shouldn't be any more difficult that plunking
    two total strangers into the same room.  In fact, it should save
    trouble.  And if you are a smoker, I would make 100% SURE you are
    put with another smoker (in reply to the person who said they always
    get stuck with a rabid anti-smoker).  In this day and age of smoking
    segregation, there's no reason why that sort of arrangment should
    be messed up.
    
    It's sure not the definitive answer, and certainly not a solution
    to the overall problem, but for those attending, it might make the
    rooming situation more bearable.
    
    kim 

    No one said that doubling up is an improvement, only a cost-cutting
    measure.  If someone wishes to be alone and is willing to pay for the
    privilege, there should be no problem.
    
    A problem does arise if someone wants to get AWAY and doesn't want to
    pay for doing so.  For example, I would be absolutely incapable of
    spending six days with Greg (The Texas Chainsmoker) Robert.  Never
    having met the man, I can say that I have nothing against his
    character, appearance, demeanor, or views, but smoking is more than I
    can take.  If Greg wishes to room elsewhere and pay the difference, 
    that's great.  (In fact, he has stated that he would pay for it, so in
    this case there would be no problem.)  But what if it were someone not
    so concerned with privacy whom I couldn't stand?  What if I wanted out,
    but felt I shouldn't have to pay ransom to do it?  Now THERE'S a
    problem!

Re: < Note 595.92 by INTER::JONG "Steve Jong/NaC Pubs" >

>  For example, I would be absolutely incapable of
>  spending six days with Greg (The Texas Chainsmoker) Robert.  

I think you have your "Greg"s mixed up (:-)...

        Yes, Greg the Texas Chainsmoker (sounds like the title of a
        horror movie, huh?  Next it will be Return of Greg the TCS,
        then Greg the TCS III...  Just when you thought it was safe
        to go to DU-IT..) and Greg Robert (STAR::) are not the same
        person.
        
        Tom

    Hmmm.  Maybe they are.  I've only met one of them.

    
    	   As an update to the situation, I approached my manager
    	with my concerns and suggestions this morning.  She was 
    	very receptive, and surprised to find that the rules had
    	changed so dramatically from what she experienced at DU-SS.
    	I encouraged her to read the memo announcing DU-IT again.
    
    	   At any rate, she agreed to take my request before the 
    	DM and see if he can offer some advice/help.  Frankly, I 
    	am not hopeful that they will be able or willing to circumvent
    	the corporate ruling.  I am more hopeful that they will 
    	allow me to be 'excused from class', as it were. 
    
    	   Like a previous noter, I am curious about why they 
    	elected to force everyone to travel to MA, when broadcasts
    	are infinitely more cost-effective and convenient.  I mean,
    	what do they hope to gain with the additional mandated
    	expenditures for travel?
    
    	   If we're really trying to save money, then let's make
    	use of the technology we have and sell, and stop sponsoring
    	boondoggles like Digital University.
    
    	- Greg

    
    
    	This is my first note in this conference and is probably going
   	to be one of those "CAREER LIMITING NOTES".
    
    	I was involved in a crisis situation at a customer site last
    	week (in the NY/NJ) area. All of the SWS managers from the
    	area were to go on a "bus trip to nowhere". During the course
    	of this situation, I had to talk with the acting manager for
    	my group to give him status information about what was going
    	on. During the course of one of the morning conversations,
    	he told me that he was unable to talk to the true owning
    	manager of this situation until 12:30 A. M., due to the fact
    	that they were "on a cruise".
    
    	Now, with all of the talk about cost cutting, salary freezes,
    	room sharing, etc. etc. etc., why were they "ON A CRUISE" and
    	the rest of the "folks in the field" required to double up
    	in living quarters and eat the standard meals served at DU-IT.
    
    	BTW, I'm not attending DU-IT, but for reasons other then the
    	fact that I OBJECT TO SHARING A ROOM.
    
    	Ken
    

       RE: .96
       
	RE: "-< I am not Greg Roberts! >-"
       
       	And neither is Greg Robert (no plural)  :-)
       
       						mike

re: .72 (Mr. Early)

Steve,

I'm afraid I feel similarly to others here.  Doubling up on business meetings
and training is standard operating procedure in the field.  Because of your
proximity to Boston, you probably haven't run into this as much as the rest of
the field.  It is the way things are, and was so long before the salary freeze.
So it really happens, and often for field folks.  Notice the unanimity of the
responses from Texas, for instance.

Of course, if you were above level 11 (old job levels) you could be exempted. 
But then why should some be able to have single accomodations and others not,
because of their job levels?  Certainly conveys the attitude that peoples'
importance varies according to their job level.  Or another way, rank has its'
privileges.  In our present economic 'reality', that stinks.

re:  the topic at hand

It won't kill me to share a room.  But it is definitely not something I care to
do, except by my choice and with members of my own family.  I'm not going to
quit over it.  I'm still going to the training in spite of it.  But I would
GLADLY PAY THE DIFFERENCE to have single accomodations.  I think that Digital
should offer that option to those that are willing.

The way this has been handled by Digital is only reinforcing the notion that
employees are not people, but resources to be utilized as efficiently as
possible.  You treat machines and robots that way, not sentient humans.

Steve

    >>I'm afraid I feel similarly to others here.  Doubling up on business
    >>meetings and training is standard operating procedure in the field.  Because
    >>of your		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  	
      
    
    Not in this field it isn't. DUIT is the first time I've been _told_
    how to spend my private life ... that isn't SOP.
    
    Scooter
    
    

    In my early days at Digital, I was required to room with other
    employees also.  This was approx. 14 years ago.  It turned out real
    BAD.  The problems ranged from vomit (NOT MIND) all over the bathroom
    to the final straw of having a loaded gun aimed at me from 8 feet
    away in the SHARED LIVING ROOM SPACE.  ** so note Steve R. (previous
    note) IT COULD KILL YOU ** At this point I found myself a private
    room and vowed NEVER to room with someone else again unless I WANTED
    TOO.  Yes I'm shouting alot.  This happened many years ago but has
    a dramatic upsetting hold over me.  I was scared more than ever
    in my life.                                
                                               
    Thanks to most of the management I have worked for since, it has
    not been too difficult to arrange my travels using my own rooms.
    In the future I will make sure this (non-private housing) NEVER 
    happens again.  I wish you all, who have the same needs, success 
    in your attempts to uphold your beliefs.  I, too, believe it can 
    be done with no additional funds and have done it on many occasions.
    
    ...Blood pressure is now lowering again
    ...Bill

    Well, I think the original suggestion of having a budget for the trip,
    and allowing each attendee to spend it as (s)he chooses, is a perfectly
    reasonable one.  Someone should suggest this to whoever's administering
    this thing.
    
    However, I think you'd find that for the cost of your shared room and
    catered meals, you would not be able to affort restaurants, hotels, and
    transportation without a lot of out-of-pocket expense.

>    to the final straw of having a loaded gun aimed at me from 8 feet
>    away in the SHARED LIVING ROOM SPACE.  ** so note Steve R. (previous
    
    Don't suppose you might care to enlighten us as to just how you came to
    be staring down the barrel of this gun while sharing your hotel room? 
    It sounds so bizarre.

   The more I read this the more I am inclined to say the hell with training.
   I think we should stand up for our rights as human beings and
  
                JJJJJ  U   U   SSS  TTTTT     SSS    AAA    Y   Y
                   J   U   u  S       T      S      A   A    Y Y
                   J   U   U   SSS    T       SSS   AAAAA     Y
                J  J   U   U      S   T          S  A   A     Y
                 JJ     UUU    SSS    T       SSS   A   A     Y  

                         NN     NN      OOOOOO     !!
                         NNNN   NN     OO    OO    !!
                         NN NN  NN     OO    OO    !!
                         NN  NN NN     OO    OO    !!
                         NN   NNNN     OO    OO    !!
                         NN     NN     OO    OO
                         NN     NN      OOOOOO     !!        - Mike

	Over the years I've been to my share of training away from home.
	The first two years I was with DEC (it was still DEC back then :-))
	I spent one week out of every 5-6 away from home on training. At least
	once I had to share a room (for three weeks) with an other DECcie.
	Granted we knew each other (worked in the same office) but I was
	never all that surprised that it worked out well. He had no trouble.

	Other times for a different company I had to share a room on a couple
	of trips. Again there were no problems. Am I just unreasonably easy
	to get along with?

	I few training trips from several sides. Yes it is to the companies
	advantage to train me. And yes I would prefer to stay home and sleep
	in my own bed at night but that training is good for me too! It's not
	all one sided. 

	Sure I'd like a big room with high class food when the company "makes"
	me go away. But if the training is realy worth my while to take, and
	it should be if the company wants to spend big bucks for it, than I
	don't see any reason why I should go out of my way to make things
	difficult for them.

	So say no. They'll send someone else and in a few years (weeks :-))
	you'll be so far behind technically that all you'll be qualified for
	is management. :-) Let someone else go to school and stay current.

	I know that interesting arraingments can be made to if people are
	reasonable about it though. Once I had to go away for two weeks and
	didn't want to leave my three month old baby behind. My wife also
	wanted to get out of the City for a while. My boss agreed that DEC
	would spring for campground fees for the whole family rather than
	a hotel room and food for one. DEC saved a few bucks and my family
	got a really low cost vacation (except I had to go to school during the
	day.)

	I've also seen the company bend over backwards when the trip is of
	one sided benifit to the company. A friend was called in to make 
	repeated trips to NYC from Florida to teach, rather than take, a 
	course. There was little advantage to him to go (he wasn't in Ed
	Services and really did not like big cities) so each trip they
	found him a better and better hotel to stay in.

			Alfred

    re: .102 (Peter)
    
>    However, I think you'd find that for the cost of your shared room and
>    catered meals, you would not be able to affort restaurants, hotels, and
>    transportation without a lot of out-of-pocket expense.
    
    	   I know from personal experience that you are quite wrong
    	on this count.  Do you know how much they are paying for 
    	those god-awful catered meals?  About the same per-person
    	as it would cost for a nice Italian dinner (no wine, of
    	course).  And those rooms... even at the half-price rate
    	when room sharing is used, you still end up paying almost
    	exactly the same rate you'd pay for a room at a Comfort/Quality
    	Inn.  Granted, the latter room may nor be as fancy as the 
    	one in the training facility, but I have simple needs/tastes.
    
    	   And as I said before, if the employee is WILLING (nay,
    	anxious) to cover the aditional expenses for the additional
    	privacy, why on earth should the company object?
    
    	- Greg

    re: .105 (Alfred)
    
    	   Clearly, you do not attend anywhere near as many training
    	trips and seminars as I do annually.  No one single seminar
    	or training session could possibly offer me all of the information
    	I require to do my job effectively, and much of what I get at the 
    	mandatory trainings (such as DU-IT) is little more than a watered-down 
    	version of what I hear at the VAX/VAXcluster Symposium, Network
    	University, and the other more-focused training classes I attend.
    
    	   As I spend so much time 'staying current', such oppressive
    	rules as these become a real nuisance to me.  
    
    	   And if you think these mass-trainings are the only way we
    	can get the information we need to 'stay current', you are
    	sadly mistaken.  Many other sources exist, and were they 
    	more effectively utilized, DU-IT (and similar boondoggles) 
    	could easily be avoided, thus reducing the costs to virtually
    	nil, and ensuring the speedy return of our salary increases. 
    
    	- Greg

    I also feel it's a totally unreasonable intrusion into my private
    space.   I first ran into room sharing when I was in Target Sales.
    Not knowing any better, I simply refused and got away with it, although
    from that day forward I was not considered to be a "team Player".  What
    horse-puckey!!
    
    Just claim you have personal reasons for not being able to share
    quarters.
    
    I also know an instructor at "Summer School" who returned home when
    he found out he had to share a room.  He faced management down on it
    and won in a sense.........he didn't have to go back to Brown.  Suppose
    he'll pay for that too.
    
    This is probably the one issue that I feel strongly enough about that
    I would put my resume on the street......but I'd still refuse in the
    meantime.  It'll probably take a court test to beat 'em on this one.  

    re:  <<< Note 595.108 by MSCSSE::LENNARD >>>
    
>    This is probably the one issue that I feel strongly enough about that
>    I would put my resume on the street......but I'd still refuse in the
    
    I certainly would not go to the extent of walking away from the company
    on an issue like this.  My points are mainly that this situation caters
    to the accountants who have little interest in the hidden costs:
    
    	1. Unnecessary stress to the employee
    	2. Decreased effectivity of the training, because of stress
    	3. Resurging friction between management and employees because
           of the "R.H.I.P" method of allocating accomodations
    	4. Less willingness on the part of the employee to attend training
           that requires travelling
    	5. Low morale and disgruntled employees = Lower productivity
    
>    meantime.  It'll probably take a court test to beat 'em on this one.  
    
    Don't hold your breath on this one.  Digital can easily prove that
    both mandatory training and room-sharing are commonly accepted
    practices in the business world.  Digital pretty much has the right
    to use these measures.  The underlying issue is whether or not these
    measures are commonly acceptable within our particular industry, and
    within our corporate culture.  Does the company as a business entity
    suffer when they make the employees suffer?
    
    Geoff
    

    
    	   In my humble opinion, this is an issue DEC would do well 
    	to resolve amicably before anyone becomes irate enough to 
    	a) quit, or b) refuse training (let alone attempt a court
    	case).  There is simply no reason for the company to allow
    	such an issue to fester.
    
    	   If the *real* issue is that DEC doesn't trust us to file 
    	honest expense reports under my "expense-sharing" plan (so
    	named in honor of the room-sharing plan it is intended to 
    	replace), then implement "expense-sharing" on an exception
    	basis.  When a trusted employee has valid reasons for seeking
    	an exception, they can make their case before local management
    	(say, the cost center manager).  If the local manager approves,
    	then the employee is given the same budget as would otherwise
    	have been used under room-sharing (as described before).
    
    	   Of course, this would pretty much rule out allowing sales
    	using expense-sharing, since they couldn't fill out an honest
    	expense report if their lives depended on it. ;^)  Even if they
    	did, no sales manager would *believe* it was an honest expense
    	report.  Guilt by association, you know.
    
    	- Greg

    The most amazing thing about this topic is that DEC could easily
    save more money in other ways. For example,  eliminate the
    expense report. The cost of someone filling it out, signing it,
    processing it, cutting the check, delivering the check, and
    cashing the check at the DCU is huge. DEC should pay the hotel
    one check, and cross charge the CC if applicable. The second
    thing, how money are we talking about here? Conferences are a
    highly competitive business, and after the rooms, meals, and
    misc charges the difference between getting 100 rooms and 200
    rooms is noise. The bottom line is that doubling-up is another
    one of the land of nod ideas that is done because it has been
    done before, not because it works.

    mike

I've only been asked to share once and opted out with no heavy 
consequences. I've also had to share because a hotel didn't have the rooms 
we'd booked (but that was only one night).

If a policy existed like this in Europe then I'd say NO.

You have my 100% support FWIW.

Dave.

    What I find amusing - yes, amusing - about all this is that I *WILL*
    not share a room, and have found that what happens when you arrive
    is one of two things:
    
      > The per person charge for the single rate is within 10% of the
        per person charge for doubling-up.  (This happens mostly around
        Boston, naturally.)  I would wager that the hotels are aware
        Digital's mindlessness where monoetary policy is concerned and
        are taking advantage of it.
    
      > I refuse to stay in the 'provided' accommodation and find a
        hotel at least as comfortable at a lower per person single
        charge than the original hotel's per person double. 
    
    Why I am amused is that in a former life I worked for organizations
    where I had budgetary control and responsibility and took MORE trips
    than my counterparts with the same amount of money.  I stayed in
    Journey's End, Relax, and similar inexpensive motel chains.  I
    personally resent paying an extra $75 to get the same size room,
    the same size bathroom, the same amount of hot water, the same TV
    connected to the same cable.  Even if it is Digital's money, I resent
    being 'taken' by the likes of Hyatt and Marriott.
    
    So, I'll never be a DEC executive because I don't live like one
    when DEC is paying.  If that were the only career-limiting thing
    in my life I might worry.
    
    If Digital was really concerned about costs, and had half a brain
    in charge (this is a whole other topic, isn't it?), training - and
    other events, for that matter - would be done in less expensive 
    locations.  I always believed the employer who was willing to waste
    money got a better deal wasting it on employees.  I mean, it's better
    to have employees appreciating your generosity than non-critical
    suppliers who love you for your bucks.
    
    (By the way, I also rent cars from Budget on a personal discount
    which ALWAYS betters Digital's Avis discounts.)
     
    Don
    

    
    	   For what it's worth, I've been told by management that I
    	must attend, and that I must follow the standard procedure
    	in making arrangements.  Naturally, this didn't sit very
    	well with me, so I once again approached my manager and 
    	discussed the issue.  
    
    	   She suggested I employ my vast array of creative talents
    	in finding a way to deal with the problem.  That I most 
    	certainly will do.  
    
    	   So, as it stands I am currently scheduled for the November
    	session of DU-IT.  At least that gives me some time to put a
    	few aces up my sleeves.
    
    	- Greg

	FWIW:


	Ive told a lot of my friends that I was going away on training.
	They said "Hey thats great!"  Until I told them that I had to
	share a room with a person I did not know!

	Most people said "That Stinks!"

	Well it does!

	- Mike

    
    	Here at the Colorado CSC (at least in my group), we, too, 
    	have to economize when making arrangements.  What that 
    	usually means when attending training in the Bedford area 
    	is using DEC housing in Lowell.  (And that implies doubling
    	up...)  In addition, to economize on meal expenses, our
    	manager requires receipts for EVERY meal  -- not just those 
    	over $25 as is required by DEC policy.  And we are expected 
    	to economize on our meals.  Room service is out.  We are 
    	supposed to try to keep our meals to a reasonable minimum 
    	of perhaps $20/day.

    	You want to know what gets my goat?  Take a look at the 
    	MASSACHUSETTS notesfile #404.  Now, I don't mean to point
    	fingers at any one individual, but there are still some
    	groups out there that are allowing folks to stay at the BEDFORD
    	STOUFFER HOTEL!  look in VTX and you will see that the rates
    	for a room there are $125/night!  Now, perhaps I AM jumping
    	to conclusions, but the note does say "I" and not "we" will
    	going to training...

    	How can one group be so extravagant, while others are "forced"
    	to scrimp?  Because it is up to the discretion of the managers
    	how the expense funds are to be spent.  If some groups can
    	spend like that, then why can't we all?  Is is because some
    	managers are making their fiscal expenditures look good at the 
    	expense	of the employees?  What do I get in return for my manager
    	coming in under budget this year?  Will I share in my manager's 
    	stock option awards?  I think not.

    	If DEC really wants to cut expenses, then it should be done as
    	a corporate policy.  Corporate standards should be tightened
    	so that all are held to the same standards.  The onus of expense
    	cutting should be taken from managerial discretion and placed
    	back in the P & P where it belongs.

    	It is currently not DEC policy that we should double up.  If
    	DEC really wants that, then the company should have the balls
    	to come out and say it.  If it is not DEC policy that we should
    	double up, and if the company as an entity is unwilling to state
    	such a policy, then we should not be subjected to such
    	unsatisfactory conditions.

    	Joe Oppelt

I do not work in the field, but I have done some travel. The way I feel about
it is that when I travel, I am away from home and family. I am in effect
giving Digital 24 hours every day that I'm away, the least they can do for me
is to give me a decent room and meals. No, I wouldn't enjoy doubling up and
would object if asked to. So I sympathize with those of you who have been told
that you will. BTW, by decent I dont mean to imply 75 dollar meals and a
room at the Hilton. On the otherhand roommates and requiring receipts for
a $2.50 sandwich is going to the other extreme. Isn't this why there are
corporate policies? so that nobody (This includes managers) goes to 
extremes.

- George

    re: General Discussion
    
    	   I feel that by working together with our management we
    	can overcome this problem.  Both my direct supervisor and my
    	DM express disdain for this treatment of the employees. 
    	While their hands are tied as to how they may respond, they
    	have stated a willingness to work with me in resolving it 
    	amicably.  (Naturally, willingness and ability are two 
    	entirely different things.)
    	
    	   Also, by working together as individuals, we can lessen
    	the impact of this unofficial policy by expanding our list
    	of options.  For example, locals might offer to share 
    	information about the area which might help a visiting 
    	DECcie find some degree of comfort in their state.  Information
    	such as potential alternative hotel facilities, public
    	transportation availability, and tips as to which restaurants
    	offer good food at budget-conscious prices.  By working 
    	together in this fashion, we can overcome the problems
    	imposed by the senseless edicts, and still adhere to the 
    	principles for which it was imposed (namely, cost reduction).
    
    	   I would like to thank those of you who have voiced their
    	support my 'differences'.  To those who echo my sentiments,
    	at least we now know that we are not alone in our desire to 
    	sleep alone.  If we work together, there's no reason that 
    	any of us need to suffer undue indignities.
    
    	- Greg

    I went to Summer School, and rooms were at a premium.  I was located
    some distance from Brown (about a 20-minute drive), and I found
    myself "doubling up" with a very nice guy from Canada.  The second
    night, he was able to shift accomodations to Providence, and I had
    the room to myself.  (One of his Canadian co-workers had to leave
    early, and he was able to fill the vacancy in the Providence hotel.)
    
    The difference was significant.  I can understand the need for economy,
    but having a little quiet time's also constructive.
    
    I won't gripe too much, but "single" is really the way to go.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I'll be attending an extended training program beginning in Nov.
    The secretary who is making arrangements asked me smoking/nonsmoking
    (I'm assuming this data will be used for roommate selection purposes
    ... she didn't know).  I will take this as an encouraging sign that
    the powers are making some attempts towards roommate compatibility
    (if not total employee convenience).  I will keep an open mind about
    my roommate until I have met her ;-)
    
    Steve

    re: .121 (Steve Cuzzones)
    
    	   Keep dreaming, Steve.  This company was founded by a dreamer,
    	and it thrives on dreamers today.  
    
    	   Maybe that's why I don't fit in any more... I stopped 
    	dreaming and accepted reality.
    
    	- Greg

    
    	   What follows are some excerpts from my DU-IT confirmation
    	letter.  Of interest in the following quotes are the discrepancies
    	between the announced plan (wherein corporate makes all the 
    	arrangements for us) and the actual plan (wherein we make the
    	arrangements and expense them back to corporate).  
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
MEALS:		   Meals will be provided.  If you have any special diet 
    		   requirements please contact your local registrar.


AIRLINE/HOTEL/GROUND TRANSPORTATION:	   
    			   
    Airline Reservations:

    To provide SOME relief to the field, an airline discount 
    package has been negotiated with American Express 
    1-800-634-4959 OR 508 481-0315.  WE STRONGLY ENCOURAGE 
    ATTENDEES TO MAKE USE OF THIS PROGRAM WHERE POSSIBLE TO OFFSET 
    THE COSTS INCURRED.  The program is available to those in the 
    US and Canada.  (This discount does not currently apply to 
    international attendees.)

    When ordering tickets through American Express participants 
    need to give the following information:

    - Event Name  - Student Name  - CC  - Badge #  - Credit Card #
    - Federal Express Billing Account #

    			   		   
Hotel Accommodations:

    Contact American Express 1-800-634-4959 if you need hotel accommodations.
    Do not make reservations through any other means as the rooms have
    been reserved.


Ground Transportation:
    
    The travel agent making your airline and hotel reservations will
    notify you of ground transportation arrangements from airport.
    Digital will NOT authorize rental car expense and the  travel 
    agent will NOT process rental car reequests.


Roommates:

    All attendees will share Double Room.  The Digital travel agent 
    will handle these accommodations. Nonsmokers will be assigned 
    nonsmoking.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	   I don't know about the rest of you, but if I'm putting
    	this extravaganza on *my* credit cards, then I'm going to 
    	make arrangements that suit me.  I may still have enough
    	frequent flier miles to afford me a free rental car too.
    
    	- Greg

    I'd be interested in discussing (Via EMAIL) ways to share a car, find
    a cheaper alternative, etc.

>MEALS:		   Meals will be provided.  If you have any special diet 
>    		   requirements please contact your local registrar.

    How about -

    "My special diet requires me to eat alone in my room, possibly at any
    hour of the day or night. The presence of another person would ruin the
    diet."

    re: .125 (Beck)
    
    	   Excellent thought!
    
    	   How about requesting a diet of boiled cabbage and
    	limburger cheese every night, followed by an entree of
    	fried pork brains and pinto beans (for that after dinner
    	glow).  I doubt you'd even have to request a single room.
    	Nobody in their right mind would endure that smell more
    	than once (and then only for five minutes).
    
    	- Greg

    I have shared rooms on a few occasions and also used the Lowell
    facility in my ten years with DEC.  While I did not have any difficulty
    with it, I disapprove on general principles. 

    The positive side was I did meet some interesting fellow travelers and
    got some different perspectives on the DEC culture.  I have heard of
    others who have met some not-so-interesting travelers. 

    The negative side was a feeling of general discomfort in many little
    ways. Giving a full 24 hours a day to my employer is ok, but the little
    things count more the longer the day is. 

    A little example: Like holding in the fart in the middle of the night.
    There, I've said it, you folks only impied it.  How many of us are
    frequently flatulent?  Come on, admit it. Even the john with a closed
    door does not always work right.  Maybe I just didn't spend enough time
    in a college dorm or in the service or something. I'll exercise the
    normal courtesies during the eight hours the company owns me, but
    holding it for 24 seems a little much!! My wife (the kids used to think
    it was funny when they were little) understands (most of the time), but
    I do not expect my fellow employees to do so. 

    A bigger example:  How about folks with serious medical problems, such
    as a prosthesis resulting from a colostomy?  I do not have one, but I
    would not want to share a room with them.  Not because I would have any
    problem with it - I've been around this world too long - but because I
    think my presence would not be appreciated by them.  Maybe this is a
    far out example because any rules written about sharing should have
    escape clauses for these kinds of things.  BUT, INVOKING SUCH AN
    ESCAPE, IN ITSELF, EVOKES AN INVASION OF PRIVACY. 

    I see shades of the drug testing here here, another policy I have a
    problem with.  All of these policies are drastic measures to be taken
    for serious problems.  From my perspective at least, DEC is not in that
    much trouble that it has to intrude our privacy by doubling up.  If it
    ever gets to the point were we have debt and payables approaching cash
    and receivables, I will be more than happy to stay in a military style
    barracks with ALL of you (surely we could afford a curtain down the
    middle). I understand even the military does not do things this way
    anymore, except possibly in boot camp, and they are the biggest money
    sinks around, bar none. 

    Fred 
    

    re: .127 (Fred)
    
    	   I think you have raised some very valid points. 
    
    	   Like you, I find it an invasion of my privacy to have to 
    	explain to someone why it is I am so interested in privacy.
    	Were I to be forced to list the reasons, they might all seem
    	small and insignificant in the context of the discussion.  But
    	as you correctly pointed out, when you are forced to offer 24 
    	hours a day to the company, the little things have a way of 
    	becoming magnified.
    
    	   Fortunately, in the past I have been able to use this
    	magnification principle to amicably resolve the room-sharing
    	problem.  Unfortunately, in order to do so my privacy must
    	be invaded inasmuch as I must disclose the 'eccentricities'
    	which make my case special (or at least, special enough to
    	warrant being granted an exception to the rule).
    
    	   However, I will admit that as long as there are 'outs'
    	for those of us who do require special consideration, I
    	will not balk too much.  My problem is that I sense with
    	DU-IT such outs have not been provided.  If someone can 
    	show me I am wrong about this, I will cease to stir this
    	kettle of fish.  After all, my primary interest is that
    	my differences be valued.  If this implies a partial
    	disclosure of those differences, I am more willing to 
    	accept that than the complete lack of consideration for 
    	my privacy.
    
    	- Greg

    I acknowledge that sharing rooms is sacrificing privacy, but in these
    tight times if ten people sharing five rooms enables an 11th person to
    attend the course, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.  For years,
    we've shared rooms at MOSS (Management of Service Staff).  
    
    grins,
    Marge

    Has anyone else seen this topic re-surface lately?  (Or did it never
    really go away?)  I've recently seen a memo that reinforces the
    "doubling up on rooms" thing, although the memo explicitly stated it
    was for "symposia".  What is a symposia?  The only thing I've seen or
    attended labelled that way was DECUS?
    
    Jon

    Here are the few meetings where we were asked to share the room in last
     one year 
    ( Some times  with a unknown DECie..)
    
    Autofact
    Executive Seminar
    Design Automation Conf
    
    

    re unknown DECies.. a horror story..
    
    Two or so years ago I shared a room at some Sales/Sales Support
    training with a Sales Rep who carried a cooler filled with beer around
    with him.  Seriously.  This fool came in loaded and woke me at 2AM and 
    asked me if I wanted one.  I replied yes, because I was going to then 
    forcibly insert it in his rectal orifice.  He quieted down and was gone
    when I woke up.
    
    So I don't look forward to room sharing.
    
    karl

re: .130

 <<   Has anyone else seen this topic re-surface lately?  (Or did it never
 <<   really go away?)  I've recently seen a memo that reinforces the
 <<   "doubling up on rooms" thing, although the memo explicitly stated it
 <<   was for "symposia". 

The last time this topic hit the big time was during the round of sales/sales
support training known collectively as Digital University Institute of
Technology (DUIT).

This year, there is no DUIT "umbrella", but there are still plans to conduct
specific symposia (set of meetings with title such as "The xxxx Sales Support 
Symposium") to train the field and yes, doubling up never really went away.
These symposia will go the doubling-up route to
	a - reduce overall cost to the company
	b - provide space in the same place for more people than could be
		found with all singles.

As for me, I'd prefer a single, but I understand the reasons behind doubling
up and am willing to inconvenience myself for a few days -- all the "roommate
from hell" stories notwithstanding.

	/Marvin

    Didn't Jack Smith say that we should look at each expense as though
    we were paying for it and if we still thought it justified then it
    probably was.  If he still feels that way then I won't have a roommate,
    since I certainly would not share a room if I were paying the bill.  I
    stay by myself or with my wife and no one else, when I pay the bill.
    
    DAM