Conference 7.286::digital

    I think it depends on the location and the reason.
    
    I remember this guy who was one level below the plant manager, and
    he would show up for work with dress shoes, dark socks, bermuda
    shorts, and a "Hawaiian" flower-type shirt.  During the summer,
    shorts are commonplace and there are several who go barefoot regularly.
    
    Of course, we're in engineering and our only customers are other
    DEC facilities; they dress just as casual as we do.
    
    I noticed that alot of people in the Mill (during my first and only
    visit there) seemed to dress very well; it seems that alot of outside
    visitors show up there so they have to look presentable.
    
    
    The mad Chinaman
    

    When it comes to contact with customers, one's appearance should
    never be noticed.

    If the customer can recall what you wore and not what you've said,
    that meeting was a failure.
    
    This has little to do with what some arbiter of fashion at DEC has
    to say about ties, suits, and skirts, but with what customers are
    going to consider distracting from the meeting.

    Try going to work in the Boston area in January in a T-shirt and
    jeans. 
    
    Coooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    Aint folks funny.
    
    Here in Reading (UK that is) we have DECpark1 and DECparkII. DECparkI
    is the UK headquarters for Marketing, Admin etc etc. DECparkII is
    R and D and full of engineers. You can stand at the common entrance
    point any morning and I'll defy anybody to wrongly determine which
    'park' a person will head towards - those with suits, ties etc turn
    right for DECparkI and those in T-shirt and jeans turn left. To
    us suited persons a suit is a kind of uniform - it carries weight
    with our opposite numbers in our customer base.
    
    My wife insists I get out of my suit immediately I get home in order
    to stop me 'poncing around like I do at work' and become a normal human
    being.
    
    David.
    

    When I transferred from 'the Field' to Home Office about six years
    ago, I was in the habit of wearing a dress shirt, tie and jacket
    (pants, shoes, etc.). My new position was in the Technical Support
    Group (Software).
    
    After one week I was told on the side that ONLY managers wore ties!
    
    I am now in Software Engineering and still wear dress shirts but
    I have let the tie go.
    

    When I worked for DEC back a few years ago (in SWS) I wore a
    three piece suit to work every day. Anything less was and is
    still considered 'casual' attire in NYC. However, when I came
    north for training (still at Parker St in those days) real casual
    attire was the rule of the day.
    
    Then I left DEC and went to work for Perkin-Elmer (they make 32
    bit computers). I assumed the same rules applied. They didn't. I
    was the only one in class with out a suit and tie. That's when I
    knew I had to get back to DEC.
    
    I really don't mind wearing ties or even suits but as long as I
    want to be taken seriously as an engineer (at least at DEC) the
    ties stay home. Even for trips to the Mill.
    
    		Alfred

    We forget how good we have it here!  Before I came to DEC ten years
    ago, I worked for a database house that required that women wear
    stockings.  (I discovered that they didn't require skirts, though,
    just stockings.)  Ycch.  You male engineers don't know how good you
    have it, having dress clothes to wear when protocol requires it
    that are at least comfortable, even if they do need to be expensively
    dry-cleaned.  Stockings are sweaty, slippery, and very fragile.
    
    On the other hand, I don't wear jeans anymore.  I don't think I
    have a pair around that is presentable enough to wear in public
    - they've all either been worn too many times for lawn-mowing or
    for house-painting.  I normally wear slacks, a reasonable blouse,
    cotton socks, and reasonable shoes that I can walk home in.  If
    protocol requires it, I'll look more formal, but it is GREAT that
    protocol does not routinely require uncomfortable clothing at DEC!
    
    One of my friends who works for IBM (really!  He is a quite reasonable
    guy in all other ways...) dropped by here (well, actually, I worked
    in MRO1 then) on his way between their Boston office and White Plains,
    wearing his "IBM uniform".  After he left, another engineer commented
    on Ed's dress and asked if he worked for IBM!
                    

  re .0
  Take a walk over to Sales sometime John (on the east side of
  Albuquerque?) Count how many folks are dressed without ties...
  
  I used to work in the ABO plant and later transferred to AQO.
  I got a raise, a new desk, and a neckbinder.
  
  Gil 

    	I have been at the Holiday Inn Mulberry (Marlborough) in Jan
    ..... in T-shirts and jeans.... Froze my A** off. 
    
    	To the ex ABO employee.... I'll take less pay for more freedom
    (NO TIES!!!!!)
    
    	-JB

    I won't worry about what I wear to work until I notice that all
    of my socks are gray. :-) (Obscure reference)
    
    --- jerry

    Even though DEC does not have a standard dress code, I think you
    should very much dress for your job.  If you are a system manager,
    then you should not be wearing ties to work, ever try tuning a VAX
    wearing a tie... However, if you are not going to be doing System
    Manager things that day, and are going to be out in and among DEC
    then I think you should have a tie on. If you are in Marketing,
    working with customers all day, you should dress for the part. 
    If you are in MIS and working with users, you should dress as your
    users dress, but if you are in meetings all day, or interacting with
    other MIS types, then you should have a tie on.
    
    The one line that I remember being taught to me a long time ago
    - and it DOES hold true is that you should dress for the job you
    want, not the one you have.  I know with woman they commonly dress 
    for failure - they let fashion influence their choice of business 
    clothes, they often dress as sex objects, and they let their 
    socialeconomic background influence their choice of clothing.
    
    John Molloy wrote in his book:
    
    We took pictures of the same woman and showed them to one hundred
    engineers.  In the first picture the woman was dressed like a fasion
    model.  In the second picture she wore the standard businesswoman's
    attire.  We asked each of the engineers to judge the woman's ability
    as an engineer.  There were 88 male engineers and 12 female engineers.
     Nintey-four of the engineers chose the woman in the standard business
    garb as the more competent, more reliable, and better engineer.
    
    I would recommend getting his book (there is one for the man and
    one for the woman) it's called DRESS FOR SUCCESS.... sure DEC may
    not have a standard dress code, but its amazing how the technigues
    taught in his books DO WORK!!
    
    	- Gale

    Re .9:

    Well, you know the old saying, "Don't judge a book by its cover"?
    Your friend, the IBM'er (that's actually what they call themselves!)
    probably works in Sales, or Field Engineering, or some such job that
    puts him in the public eye.  I know a lot of people whose only exposure
    to IBM was through such people, and there really is a dress code for
    them.

    I used to work for IBM, however, and I can assure you that among the
    engineering types there is no such dress code - they dress just as
    casually as we do here at Spit Brook.  I did notice that there is a
    difference between the Easterners and Westerners in this regard, though:
    they're a bit more casual out West (I've worked on both coasts with IBM).

    
    Well, here it is, a rainy saturday night, kid in bed, wife asleep
    (forgive her, she is pregnant!) and I figure I'll catch up on some
    note reading...
    
    Dress codes...I always thought they were for the birds.  I guess
    they were until I started looking for jobs.  When I came with dec,
    1980, into a strictly young (23-24 yrs olds) programming group,
    dress was a joke.  No ties, jeans, etc.  When we started seeing
    and interfacing with people outside our own cubs, we were finding
    many folks not respecting us.  "Oh the guy in the flannel shirt
    and jeans?  Don't worry about him, he's just a programmer."  Yep,
    dress like one, get treated like one.  We started to wear collar
    shirts, this was a big (and expensive) move but we did get more
    respect.  We knew how to dress for our "customers".  This is the
    same rule I've seen over and over.  Dress is a first impression
    so use it.  After you have proven yourself, dress is not as important.
    But, in the same manner, don't look like a fool, don't wear t-shirts
    to an office were everyone else is in ties.
    
    I now work for Internal Software Services.  We have a *WRITTEN*
    dress code (can you believe it!)  We have to wear the necknoose,
    no jeans, no polo, no tee's...it took a new wardrobe to take the
    job!  But, when we face a new customer for the first time they see
    us as abusiness, not some rag-looking programmer.  I have to agree
    with Gale, dress to fit and succeed in the job.
    
    George
    

	I tend to wear something which helps me to "fit-in" with my
    organization.  I work in Sales Training MIS, which is why I always
    wear a tie.  Nothing else, mind you, only a tie (well, ok, maybe an
    occasional pair of panty-hose and a back-pack).

						-DAV0

    I'm a software services manager in the field (female).  We have a joke
    around here about having to wear DECsuits all the time. You know, dark
    suit, dark heels, tailored blouse, etc.  B-O-R-I-N-G! But it's what
    customers expect.  And, you know, if I'm going to ask a customer to
    spend a few million on a DEC solution, I think I SHOULD look
    conservative and responsible.  Like it or not, in this business world,
    conservative and responsible translates to a very specific mode of
    dress. 
    
    I have tried wearing more casual, fun things on days when I had
    no customer contact planned.  But as often as not, some rare
    opportunity will present itself to meet with one VP or another with
    no warning, and I end up going home and changing.  So it's really
    not worth it.
    
    Bottom line is, there's no written dress code, but there is DEFINITELY
    a dress code around here.  I'm not wild about it, but I understand the
    reasons for it and just keep buying more DECsuits.  (^: 
    
    						Pat

    There's also an unwritten dress code in engineering that engineers
    should look the part.  Translate that as casual.  As long as you
    have on some type of shirt, some type of pants and (usually) shoes,
    it's OK.
    
    Wearing a jacket and tie is not the way to win friends and influence
    people.  Engineers are supposed to dress as if they're so good,
    they don't have to pay attention to silly rules like dress codes.
    
    	- Barry

	You need to dress in a manner that makes sense for your job, and where 
you are doing it.  In general, I wear a tie and jacket when I will be meeting 
with others who will be or when I am representing DEC at a outside site.  At 
Spitbrook, where I work, most people do not wear ties, so normally I don't 
either.

	Does the ISWS dress code call for a tie all time?  I used to work for
ISWS, and would wear what ever my "customers" wore; so at FS district offices
I wore a tie, at ZKO, I did not.

Steve

        I can  remember  as  a field service engineer many moons in Far 
        north Queensland (Top end of Australia), where calls to PDP-8's 
        on  farms  or  buried  in  the bowels of a mine or factory were 
        regular, being told by a new manager that I had to wear a  tie. 
        So  I  bought  a  nice wide white tie, and wrapped it around an 
        LP05 drum to get a nice pattern  on  it.    This  made  my boss 
        realize  that  dress  rules,  in  some  instances,  can even be 
        dangerous...
        
        q

My first assignment was as a resident software specialist in an Allied Chemical
fibers plant.  The customer told me that I didn't need to wear a jacket and
tie, especially since they didn't and that safety regulations would require
me to stuff the tie inside my shirt every time I walked from our office
area into the machine room.

This notwithstanding, my manager insisted that I was representing Digital not
only to the group I was working with but also to the rest of the plant and
any visitors from other companies who might happen by.

I ruined three suits in six months in that filthy environment.

But I went along with it.  No sense in arguing with your manager; you never
know where he might end up.  (He's now at the highest possible position in
U.S. SWS, and I'm long out of SWS.)

/john

    It must be my manufacturing background, but I distinctly remember
    the phrase 'People who wear ties, don't do any work' 8-).
    
    I started at DEC in '67. The regular techs dressed casual all the
    time. Engineers and engineering techs wore dress shirts and ties
    fall and winter. Summers were too hot in the un-airconditioned mill.
    Then one fall, the ties didn't go back on. That lasted until DEC
    started hiring large amounts of folks that worked for larger more
    established companies. I chuckle at some of the previous remarks
    about the southwest. I remember when people first visited colorado
    and returned saying that they all wore ties out there.
    
    Bob Mc
    

    In my 9+ years with DEC, I've basicly learned, what you wear is
    determined by what everyoner else wears. I was in one materials
    group where, whenever I came in without a tie, I was covertly treated
    like I was invisible, no cooperation. Come in the next day in a
    tie and everything was ok!
    
    99% of my contacts in finance are over the Net or phone but I still
    wear a tie 4 out of 5 days a week ( as much as I hate ties) I always
    keep a spare (neutral dark colored) tie in my desk for days when
    I don't wear one in to the office, just in case I'm called out to
    a meeting.
    
    I dunno shirt+tie=respectability, when in Rome do as the Romans
    do!
    
    Hair style is another matter. I wear my hair extremely short but
    have a 6-7" tail in the rear which has caused some negativity
    punktail=radicalism, no not really but in some people's eyes
    things like tails are equated with earrings, tattoos, etc.
    
                                           Ray
    

Re: .15:

I also work for ISWS (but soon I will be 'integrated' into Field Service as 
part of the SPS migration).  I have completely ignored the written dress 
code - I have little contact with external customers, and those internal 
customers that I see believe in the inverse relationship between ties and 
expertise.  

Re: .21:

I guess that is another case of the largest chunks floating to the top.

Re: .22:

Colorado Springs is NOT the Southwest.  Phoenix and Albuquerque are.

    RE .19
    
    ISWS dress code.....
    
    	"...a district base line dress code has been established which
    states the following types of dress are not acceptable:
    jeans/dungarees, athletic shoes/sneakers and t-shirts/polo shirts.
    
    	"The term 'base line' is used because local unit/group managers
    may implement additional requirements (ie, tie and jacket for men)
    depending upon need of their business."
    
    	There is more but it was noted to me upon hiring my manager
    expects us to "dress a level above our customers".  They wear open
    shirts, we wear ties.  I wonder, they wear suits, I wear a tux?
    :-)
    
    	So, no, the dress code does not say tie but the manager does.
   
    back to work....
    

    In the Sydney TSC there are no dress rules, however I notice something
    interesting.
    
    We basicly have two Vax groups which are;
    1. VMS = DECnet,Fortran & Pascal.
    2. VIA = rally,teamdata,wps,a1,cobol & everything else.
    
    VMS people tend to be recruited from UNI or Public service
    organizations.
    
    VIA People tend to come from commercial sites.
    
    They (VMS) wear Jeans, T shirts etc.
    We are nice & neat with ties etc.
    
    
    		Stan.

    
    	Re: - (?) ....
    
    	Haircuts!!!!! I wear a scraggly semi-long haircut... DEC hasnt
    complained about that yet... I hope they dont!
    
    
    	Its only 4-5" below the collar (assuming I wear a collared
    shirt!!!) but still unusual even here. Tomorrow I meet with the
    president of a component manufacturer.... Good Levi's cords, and
    a good shirt, but no haircuts! Thats one sign of the 60/70's I wont
    give up!
    
    	Now... if only I could keep my hair from falling out !!!!!!!
     
    	-An aging freak,
    	-John       :-)

Well, I'm certainly glad that in the engineering world I've been
inhabiting there are no dress codes.  I once worked for an organization
that had a very strictly enforced dress code.  One that centered
around weekly haircuts and funny green clothes with stripes on the
sleeves (Air Force).  When I was discharged in Oct 76 I swore I would not
cut my hair or shave for at least a year.

Well, I did cut my hair once a year later (Christmas 1977) but haven't
shaved since Oct 76. Minor trims to beard/hair are not counted.  Although
I've known my wife since Sep 78, she has never seen my chin.  So now the
ponytail is down to my lower back and the beard hides my collar.

Do I think this affects my credibility (as a power supply engineer)?  Not
at Digital or with any of the external people with whom I have contact.
I have usually found that those with whom I most commonly interact (internal
engineering customers and exteranl university types) are good enough that
they are only interested in your competence.  As long as one's appearance is
clean and neat, hair/beard/jeans/trousers/coat/tie/suit don't seem to matter.

Anecdote:  when I was interviewing during senior year of college, I
went to visit Gould in Rolling Meadows, Illinois.  It was pretty obvious
to me early on that this was not a good fit.  But what really took the
cake was the personnel person who told me at the end of the day "it's
OK to be a bohemian in college, but when you go out to work you have
to clean up your act" or words to that effect, ie, get a haircut.  Thank
goodness I work at DEC.

Although I can't give specifics (the person is a friend in a group
nearby), I have seen "dressing for success" or "dressing for the
job you want" fail miserably.  It is possible to make oneself out of
place.

I've always worn collared shirts (personal preference), but switched from
jeans to trousers about three years ago.  Since I've been doing staff/
consulting/group leader work, I usually wear a jacket to the office (but not
necessarily in the office/lab).  A tie only on "special occasions."

Ever thankful to working for such a good company,
Bob

    I'll wear a tie for the hell of it on some days, but I've pretty
    much shifted away from blue jeans in two years.  I seem to get
    better listening response if I at least wear slacks and a nice
    shirt.
    
    Customer visits:  I'll always wear suit and tie, but if I expect
    engineers in the crowd, I take off the suitcoat right after I walk
    in and drape it on the chair.  Has a good psychological effect.

    This is funny , just today I heard a rumor that a radio station 
    broadcast a report that the ???New England Journal of Medicine???
    claims that prolonged wearing of ties potentially causes 
    BRAIN DAMAGE (no kidding).
    Calims that it restricts the flow of blood to the brain??
    
    
    This is enough of a reason for me to remain an engineer !!!
    
    Unfortunately I don't have supporting data , nor did I read the
    alleged report.
    
	Anyone else hear this ????

    I transferred from Spit Brook to the Wall Street office a few 
    months ago and to my surprise, there isn't any dress code here
    at all.  When I was at Spit Brook, my "uniform" was T-shirt and
    jeans.  Now, I usually wear tie and suits just because I am
    resident at a bank and I thought this is what they call "Dress
    For Success".  However, I have been noticing that there are
    a couple of independent consultants here who wear jeans everyday
    and the programmers feel that they are the REAL engineers.
    So...I guess if you want people to think you are a good engineer
    and if you don't mind the risk of getting embarrassed by the
    bankers, wearing jeans is the way to "dress for success".

    re .31
    
    A quote I always liked from Chuck Monia, who used to work at
    Digital some years ago:
    
    "It's well known that wearing a tie cuts off the flow of blood
    to the brain. At DEC, when they make you a manager, they put
    a tie on you. The tighter they pull, the higher you go."

    re .33: Just what I was going to put in here... one of my favorite
    statements.
    
    A couple of anecdotes (true ones):
    
    I was once visiting a customer with someone from engineering (in
    Europe). The engineering person was a 'real' engineer, so I assume
    he wore jeans at home. However, because he didn't visit customers
    very often and probably didn't know how to dress, he wore a suit
    and tie just to be sure. The customer was a research institute,
    where everyone normally wears jeans and looks real shabby. Well, 
    the engineer recognized he wasn't dressed the way he should have been; 
    the customer people felt somewhat embarrased'working with such a
    well-dressed engineer.
    
    So, for the next day, both took action: The DEC engineer appeared
    in jeans; the customer people turned up in their three-piece suits.
    somewhat embarrased having

    RE: .29
    
    I remember meeting you Bob,,,, when you came to ABO is support of
    the CT power supply! 
    
    	Too bad it got transferred to PNO! It was a good design!
    
    
    	Small world!
    	-John

>    RE: .29
>    
>    I remember meeting you Bob,,,, when you came to ABO is support of
>    the CT power supply! 
>    
>    	Too bad it got transferred to PNO! It was a good design!
>    
>    
>    	Small world!
>    	-John

Thanks, John, for the compliment on the design.  Would you believe
that the call for next year is for a build of 10,000 (in HKO).

Sorry, if I don't remember you exactly, but I certainly enjoyed
working with the whole crew from ABO.  Great people, great town,
if there was good work out there for me I'd be on my way...

Bob

    re .31
    
    	When a programmer is forced to wear a tie, note the top button
    and you'll see it undone and the tie loose!
    
    It curbs the possibilty of *further* brain damage
    
    George who_nevers_buttons_the_top_button!
    

    
    
        Well (hopefully) soon I will be migrating into the Software
    Engineering field and I really hate wearing ties, they choke me
    and make me incredibly uncomfortable. I have no problem about wearing
    even a suit but it must be of the leisure type.
    
        Another thing is my hair, I am a part time musician and my
    appearance for the stage must be adequate for the music I play.
    That means my hair will (in a years time) be past my
    collar (6 inches at least). I will keep it looking good but I'm
    hoping for no flak about it. After all something is to be said
    about your life outside of DEC and your personal intrests. I don't
    see how hair length relates to overall intelligence anyway.
    
                                       Peter Cook
    

    When I was a customer working for a New York bank in a systems support
    organization, I wore a 3-piece suit every working day but one. 
    That's what the rest of the group wore.  Let me tell you that as
    unpleasant as Marlboro can be in winter to someone wearing jeans
    and a T, New York is just as unpleasant for someone wearing a 3
    piece suit on an August Dog Day.
    
    When I worked in the TSC in Colorado Springs, I put the suit and
    tie away.  For a while.  Then my boss told me I needed to "appear"
    more "respectedable" and I started wearing a tie, along with slacks
    and a dress shirt.  When I flew to customers or "back east", I wore
    a suit at least on initial contact (BTW, a wool suit in my bag stood
    me in good stead on a 10-degree memphis January day some years ago).
    'Ya know what...In retrospect, the tie did no more good than make
    me uncomfortable at work.
    
    Now that I'm in CSSE, its shirts, jeans, and boots.  And I tend
    to dress about the same as my peers in engineering.
    
    So, what's the moral?  When in Rome, do as the Romans.  I got
    wide-mouthed stares the day I showed up at the number-7 bank in
    the country dressed from head to toe in Black.  Ties did nothing
    but satisfy my (then) manager when all a customer saw of me was
    a telephone.  If I wore a tie here to engineering, they'd ask me
    who I was interviewing with.
    
    Parenthetically, also wear what's "right" and won't physically endanger
    you.  My personal rule was that all loose clothing (read ties) and
    ALL jewelry came OFF when I was near high voltage sources or rapidly
    moving objects.  Philosophically speaking, you can put a tie on
    to see a customer, but you can't put a new neck on once your tie
    gets cought in a fan (and I don't think anyone would disagree with
    that.)
    
    Regards,
    BobW
    
    PS: there are limits...At a group meeting about negativism and "can'ts"
    and "won'ts" looked directly at me (with shoulder length hair) and
    said "I don't want to hear why you can't do something.  Just do
    it.  I don't want to hear why you ''can't'' get a haircut, for example."
    I didn't.  For more than a year.  On a just-completed trip, I saw
    a friend I hadn't seen for several months and they said "Bob, you
    got a haircut!", to which I replied that there was no longer any
    reason not to.

    Oh, so someone brings out that old chestnut "Dress for Success"
    again?  What an entertaining book!  Mr. Molloy has a perverse sense
    of humor.  A couple of years after the book was out, he could (I
    presume) walk along the streets of, say, Moline and see people wearing
    uniforms like the ones he pictured.  Now if anyone had actually
    READ the book, instead of just LOOKING AT THE PICTURES, they would
    realize how silly people can be!
    
    Now people who know me are aware that I don't dress like an IBM
    salesman, or a DEC salesman, for that matter.  I work in engineering,
    and try to fit in.  In fact, when I was in DIS, I dressed like an
    engineer.  After a few years, engineering figured I was one, and
    hired me!  (I majored in Government at Skidmore.  Not a big engineering
    school.)
    
    I represent Digital on an ANSI-accredited standards body.  It has
    three working groups.  In .1 (Services), most of the men wear ties,
    if not suits, though some are more casual.  (I usually wear a tie
    there, but only a suit if it's cold or I feel like it -- rarely.)
    In .2 (Protocols), they are more casual; a few ties, but the shirts
    mostly have collars.  In .3 (Physical Link, i.e., hardware), the
    chairman wears a polo shirt.  But he puts on a jacket for the Plenary.
    
    Back to Molloy.  His text, I find it entertaining to note, has
    significant Marxian overtones.  It's all about class structure and
    the like.  He himself usually consults to the New York financial
    industry (Pat Sweeney's customers), and they tend to dress rather
    conservatively.  Thus, he notes, to fit among these guys, who are
    emphatically bourgeouis, you've got to look like an upper-middle-class
    type who would ride the 7:43 out of Westport.  And for them, he
    provided the pictures.
    
    But his underlying message was NOT to dress like a New York banker,
    UNLESS you really were one!  Instead, dress like the group you want
    to be perceived as a part of, in your own geography.  Dressing New
    York would look a bit odd in L.A., f'rinstance, and even weirder
    in Moline or Amarillo.  Dressing like a banker in an engineering
    shop is no worse than the converse.
    
    And dressing like an IBM salesman fails too.  People know that uniform,
    and you're viewed as a fraud, unless you really are an IBM salesman.
    Well, that's one fraud I'm not about to be accused of!
    
    Dress codes are a sign of insecurity among management who fears
    people who are different.  They may make sense for some jobs (sales,
    etc.) but "common sense" is usually adequate for customer visits.
    A few years ago, AT&T asked its technicians to wear suits.  Ever
    climb a phone pole in a 3-piece wool suit?  On a 90-degree day?
    No, it didn't look "professional".  It looked stupid.
          fred

Dress code?  You mean microcode is obsolete already?

-Rob

    How about combining both into a microskirt?

    	   When I was a customer, the advice that was given to others
    	attending their first US DECUS symposium was this:
    
    		"People with blue DEC ribbons are experts,
    		 unless they are wearing a suit."

    		Dress proffesional has always been a joke to me.
    Not only do I work for this fine company but am also a proffesional
    musician.I will probably never wear a tie for I am not comfortable
    with them and have tried a couple of times.If ties and suits are
    what make your appearance more 	PROFFESSIONAL  than I have'nt
    an idea what proffessional is!I have been hired recently and went
    to the interview dressed neatly and all the confidence in the world.
    
    	My hair is much longer than most,I have two earings and was
    hired to get a job done.Know I am not stupid and know that the 
    first impression is a biggy.I know that I've been turned down jobs
    because of first impressions.I could very easily cut my hair"which
    is always styled and neat at least to me"and remove the earings
    for interviews  but it's not really woth it to me.And what kind
    of places do I play guitar at,well of course all the finest lounges
    in the new england area,and still I dress to my own liking and play
    to people mostly in suit coats and ties.
     	
    	When close minded people worry about how long my hair is I feel
    sorry for them.
    
    	And every time I see a picture of Jesus Christ I see a man with
    long hair.
    			Just a thought!!

    One type of dress that has not been discussed here is that of young
    women in manufacturing areas. The plant I work in is mixed office
    and manufacturing. Most people dress appropriately for what ever
    it is they do. However, in the summerthere are a number of women
    who show up in very very brief outfits. there at least out to 
    be standards realted to common sense - a factory isn't the same
    as a beach.
    

    re: .45--You cause me to regret that I've never visited a manufacturing
    facility during the Summer!  But seriously, I think that in the matter
    of dress everyone should be as tolerant as they possibly can.  If my
    co-workers dressed in a way that I found offensive or distracting, I
    would try very hard to get used to it.  If I found, after much effort,
    that I just couldn't stand it, I'd ask my supervisor to help arrange a
    transfer. 
    
    So far that hasn't been a problem for me, but if it were my value to
    the company would be decreased, because there would be situations in
    which I could not function, due to my hangups. 
        John Sauter

                   You don't work with John Covert, do you?

    Re: .45
    >Most people dress appropriately for what ever it is they do. However,
    in the summertime there are a number of women who show up in very
    brief outfits.
    
    May be THEY ARE dressed appropriately for whatever it is they do!
    
    -bs

    re: .47--Yes, I do, as a matter of fact.  John is just down the
    (long) hall from me.
        John Sauter

    re: .50
    
    Please-
    
    	go into his cube/office
    
    	light up a cigar/cigarette
    
    	give him my regards....
    
    -Barry-

	re .45:
	
	Actually, it sounds like a good way to prevent absenteeism...
	
	Mike

    re: .46
    Being female I don't find their dress distracting or interferring
    with my ability to work. A little silly or unwise perhaps - especailly
    given the responses my notes has engendered. Now the guys in the
    tight short shorts on the other hand.... Seriously I do think that
    there should be some standards based on common sense if nothing
    else.

    re: .51--I decline on the grounds that I don't smoke.
    
    re: .53--The problem with standards based on ``common sense''
    is that people disagree about what kinds of dress are sensible.
    I'd rather see no standards at all than a standard based on
    what someone from a culture very different from mine thought
    was sensible.  I understand that in Iran nowadays a woman may
    not be seen in public unless her head is covered.  That seems
    sensible to them, and I could live with it, but I think most
    DEC employees would think it arbitrary.
        John Sauter

    I just finished re-reading this jaw-breaker session on dress code,
    and remembered an funny bit of past experience...
    
    It was at the Barn Dinner theater in Cedar Crest, N.M. about three
    years ago. (The Barn has burned down since..)
    
    Sales, SWS and Field Service were getting together for a Christmas
    dinner.  We had most of the tables in the place, and were having
    a great time, when I began to take notice that some of the males
    present were and some weren't wearing ties.  I did a quick survey,
    and noted that all of the Field service worked in-house, and normally
    DIDN'T wear a tie at work, were now wearing ties. The engineers
    who worked at customer sites, sales reps, software specialists,
    all of whom normally wore ties at work, were tie-less.  
    
    I guess the in-house guys thought they were going out, so they'd
    better dress up, while the rest of us (I was a SW Spec) thought
    'whew, no customers' and dressed down...
    
   cheers,
    
    Gil
    

    Just thought I would revisit this note and see if I can get any
    responses.  Arguments can be made for and against dress codes.  I
    understand the need for them in certain areas.  What I'm looking for is
    a formal written dress code, whether it is from ISWS or SWS.

    Our group is in SWS and are moving out of the Customer Support Center
    in Colorado to a new building.  We occassionally meet with customers
    but for the most part we are working on programming projects inhouse.

    We have been told that there will now be a dress code in effect but
    nothing formal has been issued as the formal dress code other than you
    will wear ties and no jeans.  If I'm told there is a dress code, I want
    it written in stone!  Subjective judgements as to what is
    'proper business attire' don't hold water with me.

    So if I can't get management to write one, I want to get a copy of
    one which is used elsewhere in the company and get management to
    buy off on it.  

    So, can oneone help???

    Thanks in advance
    Michael Davidson
    TYFYS::DAVIDSON

re: < Note 132.56 by TYFYS::DAVIDSON >
                          -< Written code anywhere? >-


Refer to the policy and procedures manual ( you can get it from personell ),
I believe it is stated there that Digital has no formal dress code.

>>    nothing formal has been issued as the formal dress code other than you
>>    will wear ties and no jeans.  If I'm told there is a dress code, I want

    Will the female employees be required to wear ties?

    We had a consultant here teaching a seminar who said she insisted
    on the following dress code:  clothing must be worn to class   :-)

    Heard a story about a group in the Mill (don't recall if the department
    it belonged to was specified).  Seems that they got a new manager,
    and he insisted that "you must wear ties!".  He came in the next
    day, and found all the guys having a meeting in a conference room,
    and they were wearing ties, all right...
    					    ... and nothing else...
    
    I believe that this caused him to take the hint and stop bothering
    them.
    
    Dick

        If there is a reference to a dress code in the PP&P manual, it is
        sufficiently low-key that the on-line manual doesn't have it
        indexed under any of "dress", "clothing", or "attire". 
        
        Tom

    There is not a dress code in the pp&p manual it is up to local
    management. Like field service has a dress code of proper business
    atirer. Proper business atirer might very from Area to Area and
    local management has the final say. I've been in fiels service over
    ten years and most field offices require ties for men and dress
    cloths for both men and women. I've worn a tie for ten years never
    liked it but it hasn't killed me eather. 

    I knew if I entered a new reply, I would get this note hopping again.
    I was trying to see if any groups had a 'written' dress code so I
    could present it to my management as a guideline.  They beat me to the
    draw and presented one to the group yesterday.  I can live with a dress
    code, I just wanted it written and passed by personnel as this one has.
    Here is the code for those who are interested:

    1. Casual or sports wear, such as blue jeans, T-shirts, and tennis (or
       running) shoes are not appropriate in the office environment.

    2. In the office, men should wear appropriate business attire, e.g.,
       slacks, dress shirts and ties.  Corduroy pants are discouraged, but
       may be worn if neatly pressed.  Shoes should be conservative and
       made of leather (or simulated leather).  When meeting customers,
       suits or sports coats should be worn.

    3. In the office, women should wear appropriate business attire, e.g.,
       dresses, dress slacks, skirts and blouses.  Shoes should be
       conservative and made of leather (or simulated leather).  When
       meeting with customers, suits or coordinates should be worn.


    For a group which will be meeting with customers more and more, I don't
    feel that this code is asking much.

    michael

    What some of us were objecting to was a change of managers bringing
    with it a demand for us to dress in such-and-such a fashion -- it
    felt rather like changing the rules in the middle of the game.
    
    Dick

    Engineers and writers don't usually deal with customers so perhaps
    this discussion is irrelevant for us (dealing with customers sets
    a special criteria), but since I don't deal with customers, 
    I'd transfer out of a group that had a dress code.  
    Thats one of the reasons why my fiancee (an engineer) came to DEC 
    instead going to IBM where his father worked.
    
    I do my job well.. thats what we're paid for in my group.. not how
    we look..  Too many managers are more concerned with how you look
    and how well you fit their image than how well you do your job.
    Thats where most of the dead wood around here comes from in the
    first place ... from people who look great, wear terrific clothes,
    are friendly to the right people.. and don't contribute a thing
    as far as deliverables go (personal opinion).
                                                                      
    Mary                                         

    
    I used to work in another computer vender ( Not too long ago ) one
    of the orientation training every marketing/sales people have to
    go through was Dress Code.. They brought a special consultant, who
    trains various political leaders on this. The two day training session
    included, video taping of each individual on how he dresses and how
    he can improve, what to wear and what not to wear etc etc. 
    The consultant literally vomitted what was said in the book " Dress
    for success ". Lot of films were shown - real life situations about
    how people react to the way one's dresses..
    
    All said and done, I found the training to be very useful. One sore
    point - Training material did not include a company issued plastic
    card to buy  all those expensive things which the consultant suggested.
    
    

    The IRS rules on tax deductions say that if you are required to
    purchase special clothing for a job, clothing that you would not
    wear "on the street", then such purchases are tax deductable.
    I think the rule is intended to cover uniforms and the kind of very
    fancy clothing worn by entertainers, but there is no reason why
    it can't cover a business suit, if it doesn't fit your personal
    style.
        John Sauter

    
    I thought the tax rule was that the clothing "COULD" not be worn
    on the street, with further restrictions in the IRS tax codes stating
    that by wearing the clothing, it would make it apparent what your
    profession being.  The IRS also limits that by saying that your
    profession has to be at least the same restrictions which they use.
    (i.e. computer programmer is a profession, where a business
    professional is too broad).  The point I am making is that you would
    find it very difficult to convice our pals at the IRS that a suit
    and tie is tax deductible.

    I'm not a tax lawyer, but I believe the following provisions of
    the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 are relavent:
    
    	section 280F(d)(3)(A) says ``Any employee use of listed property
    shall not be treated as use in a trade or business for purposes
    of determining the amount of any credit allowable under section
    38 to the employee or the amount of any recovery deduction allowable
    to the employee (or the amount of any deduction allowable to the
    employee for rentals or other payments under a lease of listed property)
    unless such use is for the convenience of the employer and required
    as a condition of employment.''
    
    Section (B) defines Employee Use as ``any use in connection with
    the performance of services as an employee''.  Part (4) defines
    listed property, and includes ``(iii) any property of a type generally
    used for purposes of entertainment, recreation or amusement''.
    
    Thus, if you can convince the IRS that clothing which you buy in
    order to conform to the dress code is (1) required as a condition
    of employment, (2) used only to perform your duties as an employee,
    and (3) amusing, then the IRS would be required to allow you to
    deduct the expense.
    
    Keep in mind that I am not a tax lawyer, so don't mention my name
    if you get audited.  However, even a non-lawyer is entitled to read
    the law and make reasonable inferences from it.
        John Sauter
     

    Just embroider the digital logo on it somewhere (visible).
    
    There is a ond tax decision often cited that let an airline pilot
    write off "military-like" shoes, but not shoeshines (nor haircuts).
    
    The logo trick should work, just don't wear it to the audit ;^)).
    
    /s/ Jim WIlliams

        My reaction to clothing required by a "dress code" is like that
        expressed by several recent replies -- that it is a uniform. If
        you would not normally wear the uniform, except to perform your
        job, then it's reasonable (given a literal interpretation of the
        IRS code) to deduct it.  Whether you will be allowed to claim the
        deduction will depend on someone else's interpretation of the
        code, but there's a strong likelihood that you will never be
        questioned, provided that your return falls within whatever
        guidelines are programmed into the IRS' computer.
        
        Tom

    
    	I finally broke down and talked to my friend's mother who is
    an IRS auditor out of Andover.  Anyway she says that suits are not
    allowable, because they are considered reasonable attire for street
    or personal use.  I think you would have a hard time convincing
    any IRS auditor that your deduction is allowable because, she told
    me that they have a very strict dress code and they aren't allowed
    to deduct it either.  (Yes people IRS auditors get audited also!)
    	Remember that by accepting a position with a company you are
    accepting their policies.  You are not forced to work for that company.
    If you were a mechanic and the dress code calls for you to wear
    shop clothes at work, then that is deductible because shop clothes
    are "required" at a majority of shops.  Whereas 1) we do not have
    an official company dress code, and 2) there is no standard dress
    code industry wide.  My friend's mother also said that the one area
    they are a lot more leniant on is footwear. She said that footwear
    and glasses can be deducted as safety equipment if you purchase
    them accordingly.  (i.e. shoes with fiberglass or steel toes or
    arch support if you have to walk a lot for work, and shatter resistant
    lenses for glasses.)  She said that she has even allowed engineers
    to deduct for Clip on ties as safety attire.
    
    
    David J.
    
    
    

    re: .73---It sounds like the IRS is being a bit stricter than the
    letter of the law, as quoted in .70, permits.  The law says nothing
    about industry standards, or whether or not you knew about the clothing
    requirement when you joined the company.  It also doesn't say that
    the IRS judges whether or not a particular piece of clothing is
    suitable for street use---clearly it is up to the wearer to judge
    that.  What is suitable in a New York City courtroom may not be
    suitable on Pike's Peak.
    
    However, in order to overcome IRS policy (even when it is contrary
    to the law) you would probably have to appeal your case to the tax
    court.  Unless you spend a lot on clothing that wouldn't be worth
    the hassle.
        John Sauter

    I think you would be pushing it if you tried to deduct the cost
    of a normal business suit by claiming that you would not be able
    to wear it on the street.  However, before I came to DEC, I did
    database programming for a banking service company, which was a
    subsidiary of a bank.  The employees there who actually worked for
    the bank itself (not me) had to wear suits.  However, the suits
    had the bank logo woven into them all over in a repeating pattern,
    as did the neckties.  They were cheap-looking polyester suits anyhow
    (at least they were probably washable - what I hate most about "formal"
    clothing is that I have to spend oodles of money to get it cleaned
    when I do have to wear it since I can't wash it).  I think you could
    safely say that you would not wear such a suit anywhere but at work,
    since it had "Provident-Provident-Provident" emblazoned all over
    it (both men's and women's versions of them had this - women had
    a bank skarf instead of a bank tie).  I would have deducted it if
    I had had to wear one.

        As I read the IRS regulation (which is clearly different from the
        way the IRS chooses to interpret it), if you are COMPELLED by your
        employer, as a condition of your employment, to wear certain
        clothing that you would not otherwise CHOOSE to wear, then it is
        irrelevant whether such clothing is "suitable" as "street
        clothes".  Clearly, the IRS chooses to disallow as many deductions
        as possible, since their goal is to maximize tax revenues, not to
        minimize tax burdens.  Even tacky polyester suits with "Provident"
        woven into the pattern *can be* worn on the street, although such
        use is probably at the risk of public scorn, or at least
        snickering. 
        
        Tom

    I read of a case a few years ago where a woman manager of a very
    sophisticated womans shop was required to purchase and wear clothes
    from the store while she was working.  The womans normal attire was
    jeans & t-shirt.  She claimed the clothes as a deduction.  When the IRS
    disallowed it, she took it to Tax Court and lost.  Even though the
    woman would not wear the clothes other than to work, they COULD be worn
    on the street at other times, thus the Tax Court ruled that the
    deduction was not proper.
    
    Bob

    BTW, for us PSS software specialists in Dallas, the dress code at the
    customer site is basically, "Fit in with the customer dress code,
    but remember you represent Digital".  At one site, where I was
    converting an IBM shop to Digital, it was strictly suit and tie.
    At another assignment, the MIS director had a tie stuffed somewhere
    in a drawer in case of emergency, but he couldn't remember when
    he wore it last.  I could have dressed in jeans & t-shirt, but felt
    that shirt and tie was more appropriate as I was in the habit of
    going about town during lunch.  One of our folks is at a large facility
    and wears jeans & t-shirts and fits in just fine.
    
    At the office, shirt & tie are required, with jacket optional.
    
    Bob 

    re: .77--Any chance you could get the docket number of that case?
    I would like to read the court's reasoning.  It certainly seems
    to be different from the way _I_ would interpret the law.
    
    Consider the possibility that this is just a rumor, which the IRS
    doesn't deny because it benefits them.
        John Sauter

          <<< HUMAN::DISK$HUMAN_WRKD:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 731.0                    WANTED: A DRESS CODE                       1 reply
MSCSSE::LENNARD                                      20 lines  21-FEB-1989 14:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'd like to see some discussion on the relative advantages/disadvan-
    tages to Digital of the lack of a dress code.
    
    I work at the Software Engineering Facility in Spit Brook, N.H.,
    and the way a lot of people come to work here is simply disgraceful.
    Some look like they're getting ready to start  a 100-mile hike;
    others look like they have just finished it!!  I would say that
    50% of all employees at ZKO dress in a manner that is totally
    inappropriate to a business organization -- and the rest are just
    marginal.
    
    Does the way someone dresses to go to work have anything to do with
    how one's self-esteem, or how they think and/or care about their
    job?  I think it does, and I also believe it is part of the overall
    decline in standards in this country as we move closer to being
    a second-class power.
        
    I'd like to see a requirement for at least a jacket and tie, with
    equivalent dress for women enforced.  It is a minimal standard in
    90% of American businesses -- why not in Digital?
================================================================================
Note 731.1                    WANTED: A DRESS CODE                        1 of 1
ANRCHY::SUSSWEIN "He Who Dies With the Most Toys Win" 6 lines  21-FEB-1989 14:42
                              -< No way, No how >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm an engineer.  I want to be evaluated based on the quality of
    the *engineering* work I do, not on how I dress.  The day digital
    enacts a dress code, is the day I quit.
    
    Steve
    

    re. minimal standard in 90% of American businesses
    
    What hat did you pull this statistic out of?
    
    

    Those of us who appear in front of customers on a regular basis (ie,
    field types) do have a dress code, if a somewhat informal one. Believe
    me, if you consistently show up in front of a customer looking like
    a mountain man, you'll hear about it - both in your performance
    and salary reviews, potentially. However, even in the field, if
    you're not going to be see by a customer, nobody minds if you show
    up in jeans and sweats (in my experience, at least).
    
    However, as a (reluctant) six-year veteran of the Digital
    jacket-and-tie corps, I must disagree with the opening note in .80.
    I can see no good reason to require engineers (for example) who
    have no regular contact with customers to conform to any particular
    dress code. You talk about business - let us field weenies handle
    the business. If an engineer can produce a Digital-quality product
    (including working weekends and nights and those other herculean
    efforts that are common in that organization), I frankly don't give
    a s**t about how he or she dresses. If the manufacturing organization
    can deliver my customer's order a day sooner once a year because
    they can wear comfortable clothes, then so be it!
    
    Why not find something *important* to worry about, like how to make
    Digital's customers successful in their chosen line of business
    by providing the best price-performance computer solutions available
    on the market today?
    
    Really! Sheesh.

re< Note 132.82 by SRFSUP::MCCARTHY "Moe! Larry! Cheese!" >

>    I can see no good reason to require engineers (for example) who
>    have no regular contact with customers to conform to any particular
>    dress code. 

	May I add one caveat, please? I think that all employees in a building
	that is either a) not totally inhabited by DEC or b) has a fair number
	of regular visitors from outside DEC should dress respectably. Even if
	I'm not in a field group, which I am, if I could reasonably expect to
	pass by non-DEC employees on a semi-regular basis, I think I should
	be reasonably dressed - it probably impacts visitors' impressions of
	the company.

eric

    When I go away from a Digital facility to see customers, I wear a suit
    and tie. I only have one, but it's a good one, and I do wear it on
    those special occasions, like weddings, funerals, court appearances,
    job interviews, and customer visits at their place.
    
    In almost 25 years, nobody at DEC has ever objected (to my face) to the
    clothes I wear.  The day they start is the day I get another job.
    
    I used to work for DEC Field Service at customer sites installing
    PDP-10s. Frequently I was the only person sent to the site.  I had to
    do customer relations, a complete hardware installation, software
    support, and hardware support. Did you ever try to install a dozen
    large racks of computer equipment wearing a coat and tie? By yourself?
    It can be done, but the clothes won't be presentable the next day. The
    solution is to arrive at the site late in the day, spend an hour doing
    the customer realtions, and at 5pm, take off the good clothes and get
    to work. Work like hell all night, and leave before the customer
    arrives in the morning. Leave the customer a note saying what time
    you'll be back. He can see for himself what progress has been made.
    Then, after 8 hours sleep, you can arrive back at the customer site in
    NEAT sports clothes, and nobody will mind. You did the image bit, and
    produced a lot of visible work on top of it. Nobody ever complained
    about sports clothes to me after a beginning like that.

    A lot of this boils down to the issue of control. Some big cheese
    (in a typical large company) looks into his/her organization and
    says - I'm going to put MY imprint on these people and make them
    look like MY vision of a corporate military force (ie - dressed
    in uniforms, ready for the battle). So all the "worker bees" conform
    and this person feels happy about his/her control over the color
    of everyone's ties. Fortunately this doesn't seem to be the case
    here at Digital.

    Instead of this heirarchical vision of corporate life whereby one
    person "dictates" how things shall be, Digital employs a "peer-to-peer"
    model whereby one's beliefs are as important as anyone elses, and
    it's your responsibility to speak up to correct a wrong. The other
    model seems to employ a "I'm right you don't matter" kind of attitude.
        
    There is this stereotype of really brilliant people wandering around
    not really caring what they look like while they cogitate about
    how to design or solve some problem. I think customers are pleased
    to find that these non-conforming people are working here at Digital.
    Many times I pick up the perception that, the better dressed the
    person, the higher up in Sales they must be, and therefore the less
    technical their skills. 
    
    Believe me, when we have to present to the chairman of the board
    of some potential customer, everyone on the Digital team is
    appropriately dressed. That's what is called for - appropriate dress
    for the occasion. Surely a guest to a Digital facility is not going
    to expect the gardners to be dressed with ties, so how are they
    going to know who are the gardners and who are the engineers or
    writers?  
    
    I'm not going to bow down to some corporate mandate regarding clothing
    rules. There is nothing to respect about someone who just looks
    like another corporate clone (other than his/her ability to conform),
    while someone who takes a chance by wearing the clothers they feel
    most comfortable in commands my respect (at least for their daring).
    
    This is another example of the Digital culture and why people
    choose DEC as a place to work.

    erik g.
    aka The Baja Man

    >for the occasion. Surely a guest to a Digital facility is not going
    >to expect the gardners to be dressed with ties, so how are they
    >going to know who are the gardners and who are the engineers or
    >writers?  
    
     THE GARDNERS ARE BETTER DRESSED!

     :-)

    Re .80:
    
    How long have you been at ZK?
    What is your position?
    
    
    				-- edp

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    Is the number of ties in ZK increasing?  What's going on; is the
    environment changing, ZK becoming less of an engineering facility?
    
    
    				-- edp

    re .80
    
    I care that I maintain my job standards, which happen to be very high,
    regardless of what I wear.   Your definition of a dress code will
    never get my vote.
    
    

    Re .80:
    
    Pushing people to conform to one's own standards is disgusting.  It's a
    method by which hate is generated.  You take an innocuous action, a
    trivial thing that does not have any physical effects, and you
    ostracize people for it.  You put them down, you insult them, you blame
    them for some imagined offense.  It's a word they said, a private
    belief, the color of their skin, the manner of their dress.  Why do you
    take offense when a person meant no offense? 
    
    Who made you judge?  You proclaimed the disgrace of some people's dress
    -- are you the judge of grace and disgrace, are you the engineer god,
    able to judge the quality of an engineer's work by the manner of their
    dress?  I think you should confine comments about grace to private
    places of worship. 
    
    Professionalism has nothing to do with dress.  Professionalism has
    nothing to do with showing a mystery of a parent's life, the workplace,
    to one's children.  Professionalism is doing a good job.
    
    At DECUS, customers know that people wearing Digital ribbons are
    experts -- unless they are wearing a tie.  I'm tired of people trying
    to run my life.  I do a good job.  I hurt nobody.  Leave me alone. 
    
    
    				-- edp

    re .80
    
    Why were you stupid enough to accept a job in an environment in 
    which you clearly feel uncomfortable?   I presume you were interviewed
    at ZK?   Interviewing is a two-way process; both them with the job and
    the one that wants the job get to check each other out, and not just
    for technical skill.
    
    

    re .80 (again)
    
    Actually, this must be just a big wind-up, right?  You're chortling
    to yourself about how you've triggered the knee-jerk response-note
    reaction in 15 or so of us to date, with probably more to come.
    
    Good joke!  You sure had us fooled for a while!
    

I confess that sometimes I dress in jeans and sneakers because I know it
will irk all the supposed administrative "shakers and movers" that I
pass in the hallway.

I love being an engineer! :-)

    The impression that I get of the "company culture" for the field
    is that you "blend into the environment". I work for PSS (SPS who
    knows anymore, anyway I'm a resident. They box me up and ship me
    off for eons at a stretch.) 
    
    My current customer is an engineering/manufacturing environment. I
    wear jeans, etc. to work. (Shock and dismay) I'm often spotted
    with my head under the computer room floor wondering where the
    other end of that cable is.
    
    There's a running joke there that you can spot the Sales reps
    (of any company) in the cafeteria, 'cause they're the ones 
    wearing the suits.
    
    I have gotten a little grief from my UM about it. (Not during the
    delivery period, but only at review time ("What? You lost your
    voice for 6+ months? You must have been really ill, since you didn't
    come down here. I realize that a 12 minute drive can be very
    grueling!" ;-) )
    
    And, personally, I don't care anymore. If I'm doing such a terrible
    job, why is my customer scrambling to hire me? (What me getting
    a 3 rating and all)
    
    I came to DEC from an R&D company. I think in severe techie terms,
    there is a great deal of mistrust of someone straight out of GQ.
    
    I'd have preferred they were reading notes than that stuff. 
    
    Jim_raised_on_twinkies_and_Sezchaun_food
    
    Plus, you never know when a mountain will spring up in the middle
    of the computer room floor.
    

    There was a similar (if brief) discussion on the same topic some
    time back this side of the pond ..
    
    .0 (Not from Engineering)
    
    "Everyone at site X should wear suit, tie etc.
    
    .1 (Engineering)
    
    "What's a tie ?"
    
    Mike Day
    

    What one lacks in substance, they must make up with style.
    
    'nuff said.
    
    Paul

    re .80:
    
    After reading your angry notes regarding:  STRIDE, Personnel
    recruiters, and now this jacket-and-tie silliness,  it occurs to
    me that there is really a very simple solution to all the things
    about Digital that are angering you:
    
    	Go work for someone else, preferably some company with an
    oppressive culture (including dress codes, of course),  forced
    redeployment into open slots (in other words, "Take the job we offer
    you, or you're fired.), and a bureaucratic, hierarchical management
    organization.     Gee,  I can think of one company fitting that
    bill ...  How do you like the Armonk, NY area?   Plenty of jackets
    and ties strutting their stuff around there!
    
    -Monty-

Some of us envy the people in Spit Brook because of the lack of a dress code.

Digital would be a terrific company if the people in all the plants could dress
like the ones in Spit Brook!

I've worked in software engineering environments since 1983, and I've never
seen any correlation between clothes and performance. In fact, if I had to make
a blanket statement, I'd say the people who dress grubby are the better
performers.

Some of us feel and work better when we are wearing just what we want to.

Vicki Meagher

    We should have a dress code: no indecent exposure, everyone with
    some kind of footgear on. Period.

    
    
    There is a saying that goes, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance,
    then baffle 'em with bulls**t." Not all but a very definite few
    people seem to believe that the suit and tie or heel silk dress
    and jewelry make the person. 
    
    I don't like ties, never have, probably never will, but because
    of the contact with customers vendors and and persons from other
    groups I wear a tie. Depending on the situation I may??? wear a
    jacket. It is possible to be comfortable without looking like a
    total slob. Jeans, tennis shoes, tee shirts can all be acceptable
    dress. Seat suits are border line,(actually a little on the uh-uh
    side of the border) for a business engineering or even manufacturing
    environment. I think some one in an early note said keep the clothes
    clean, neat, and unholy and keep your person clean and neat (shave,
    or trimmed beard, hair combed, bath every Saturday whether you need
    it or not 8*))

                                  
    1. The job of people in engineering is not to present an "image".
        That's not what we get paid for.   Any customer in literally
        any software development environment (i.e. also outside of DEC) 
        is not surprised by casual dress.   In fact, they expect it.
    
    2.  If we ARE talking about image, wearing a suit and tie is
        absolutely the wrong wrong image to present.  The image of talented
        engineer is casual, not a suit and tie.   Many knowledgeable
        customers would be suspicious of engineers dressed in a suit
        and tie.
     
     3. After all, we do have an image to live up to! :^)
                                                     
                 Bob 

    re: .102
    
    Yeah, I asked once if I should dress up for a customer presentation,
    and was told:  "No, the customer specifically wants to talk to an
    engineer!"
    
    /Dave

    re: .80
    
    Sheesh, I was sympathetic to this guy when he was discussing recruiters
    and now he has to go and spoil it by demanding a (was I hallucinating?)
    dress code.
    
    Personally, my dress code is strictly Digital, i.e., where whatever
    is appropriate for what is scheduled.  If I have to attend an important
    meeting or meet outside people I dress in an "IBM uniform", otherwise
    there isn't any big decision on what to wear, period.
    
    David

    I have heard a rumor (uh-oh) that there is a Digital employee in
    one of the New England sites that is a transvestite.  It is said
    that this man wears very nice, tasteful dresses to work.  It is
    also said that he is still rather manly, and at least 6 feet tall,
    and uses the men's room.
    
    Now, regardless of whether this rumor is actually true or not, it
    does make me wonder how the anti-dress-code people (as well as Mr.
    Lennard --author of .80) feel about the idea of _really_ dressing
    as you feel like dressing.
    
    (My opinion?   How one dresses is none of my business, whether it's
    suit and tie, jeans and t-shirt, or Digital's own Corporal Klinger.
    I do wonder whether that person, if he exists, ever comes in contact
    with customers, though...)

    -Monty-with-a-new-twist-to-the-topic-

    In the orientation video for new hires, Ken Olsen talks about how,
    while there isn't any dress code at Digital, we should be aware
    that people who present themselves in a bizzare fashion are probably
    trying to distract from their actual job performance.
    

Let me tell you a story about dress codes.  In 1973 or thereabouts, Dec
got a *large* order from a *very* large Swedish manufacturing company, who
is/was also the largest customer (and v.v.) of another computer company,
somewhat larger than Dec.

As a software specialist, I was slightly involved in the pre-sales and
post-sales efforts, and would visit the company from time to time.  Once,
I was at lunch with the engineers I was visiting.  Were were joined by the
company's vice-president for computer systems who started talking about how
they selected vendors.

When it became apparent to the competitor that they might lose the sale,
the salesman asked him "what do you want from us?"

"We want to talk to your technical people."

"OK, we'll send our very best people up from Brussels."

When the chartered plane arrived, the vice-president went to the airport
to welcome them to Sweden.  "As the got off the plane, a hundred meters
away, I could tell by their shoes that they were salesmen."

-----

While they were developing the system, they put one of the PDP-11's in
their machine room (about the size of a football field).  The other
company objected, claiming that the Dec field-service folk would peek
at their schematics or steal their tools or use up the air-conditioning
or something.

So they moved the computer into the entrance lobby to their dataprocessing
center, put some cinema ropes around it, and put up a sign "We just bought
40 of these and are putting them in all of our plants in Sweden."

Martin.

    As a new entrant to this conference, the notes intrigue me.
    Has anyone noticed that there *is* in fact a dress code for
    "engineers". It seems to be something along the lines of "grubby
    clothes and yellow sneakers". If one feels comfortable (for whatever
    reason) in clean shirt, tie and (heaven forbid) a suit, or a dress
    as appropriate, then that "one" is obviously not technical (at least
    not talented!!! Isn't that reverse snobbery and an implicit form
    of dress code? :-)
    
    Krishna.
    

       It seems Mr. .80 is a 'hit and run' Noter. I guess he can't take
    the heat. If he wants a dress code, he should join the Army.
                                                         Denny

>< Note 132.108 by NETMAN::KRISHNASWAMY "Be cool, stay in the groove, say YO" >
>  Isn't that reverse snobbery and an implicit form of dress code? :-)
    
	Assuming your theory is correct (and I'm not doing that), the operative
 word is "implicit".  At DEC, no one is forced to wear anything they feel un-
 comfortable wearing.  Let's keep it that way.  If you want to wear a 3PS in 
 an Engineering environment, do it!  If, after proving your technical worth,
 you receive some chiding from your colleagues, simply laugh at them from
 behind your stacks of money.

							--Mike

    Is it 1st of April already ?

    ZK seems like right a place to work ? Any openings ?

    	Actually, when I go on site I have suit and DEC tie ( the unmodern
    ugly one ), which sometimes causes small "problems".
    I was a year ago visiting one of our bigger OEMs in Switzerland, rather
    conservative country. My tie was the only one there, everybody else,
    even development manager were dressed like punks. Several chains round
    the neck,  jeans. Very clean sorts of punks ....
    Few weeks ago I was asked to talk to a visiting customers, a team
    responsible for inter-bank, stock exchange network from yet another,
    rather conservative country. We ( DECies ) had our wedding/funeral
    outfits while customers wore jeans and T-shirts. 

    THIS WORLD IS CRAZY AND UP SIDE DOWN, why should we be different ?

>people who present themselves in a bizzare fashion are probably
>trying to distract from their actual job performance.

So what does that say about engineers in suits?

    I spent many a year at another company, smaller than Digital and more
    repressive.  There apparently was a dress code.  I say "apparently"
    because the first I ever heard of it was one June day when we received
    a memo from the vice-president and general manager, stating that
    because of the summer heat he was relaxing the dress code rules.
    For the duration of the summer, we were allowed to doff our jackets
    and wear short-sleeved shirts.
    
    Honestly, it was the first anyone had heard of it.  I'm not sure
    what planet the VP&GM commuted from, but it was not ours.  (Krishna,
    perhaps you know 8^)
    
    The provacative question raised some twenty replies back is a fair
    one, I think.  The spasm of replies clearly shows that dress is
    an issue of great sensitivity to some people.  The author must realize
    now that dress is definitely optional at Digital.

    Actually, I like giving presentations in a suit and tie.  The 
    audience is always shocked to discover that I know something.
    
    MATT

    During the U.S. Bicentennial, I grew a pony tail. By March of 1975 it
    was down to the middle of my back. Then I had to make a technical
    presentation to Phillips/Eindhoven.
    
    I considered cutting the pony tail off. I was only growing it for the
    Bicentennial celebration anyway, but decided not too. Under those
    circumstances, I felt I had to compensate for the hair by being
    conventionally spiffy with suit, tie, shined shoes et. al. And the pony
    tail. The DEC salesmen did comment, in a jocular but not negative way.
    Nobody else ever said a word. 
    
    I wonder what the Phillips vice president thought?

    
    re: .106
        
    > In the orientation video for new hires, Ken Olsen talks about how,


    Excuse me....what orientation video?
    
    Oooops.  this probably belongs in the personnel bashing topic :-0)
    
    Bob

Way back when engineering in Digital England was just a handfull of people a
new manager was to be hired to run the group. As was the custom he interviewed
with all the engineers that he would be managing. The engineers were told that
they were not to be biased against this candidate just because he wore a suit
and tie.  (He got the job).

Tim

>>> The author must realize now that dress is definitely optional at Digital.

    
    OOOOOOOHH!  And I have been wasting all this money on CLOTHES when
    I could have been putting it all in stocks, and gained a lot of
    closet space, not to mention glances at traffic lights.

	My reply to ANYONE who thinks they are going to enforce a dress
	code on me (INCLUDING .80!!) will get a "See Figure 1!!" statement.

	Dear .80

	This is DEC. We don't do high-handed corp. tactics. We are professionals
	because of WHAT we do, NOT because of how we look. If you can't
	conform then go somewhere else.  God only knows why you took
	a job in ZK.


						mike foley
						VMS Development System Manager
						Yes, IN ZK and Damned happy!
						I'm the one with the holey
						acid washed jeans.

There's a sign that is often seen at the entrances to restaurants in Colorado 
Springs that reads:

			No Shirt
			No Shoes
			No Service

I've always thought that had interesting implications...

BobW

    I sense an undercurrent here which I'm probably overreacting to,
    but which bothers me nevertheless.  There seems to be an attitude
    that people who wear suits do not know anything.  Giving the benefit
    of the doubt, I take that to mean "does not know anything technical"
    and that, by implication, technical knowledge is the only thing worth
    knowing.

    Well, I've got news for any of you who feel this way (I hope that's
    no one!).  Selling (or marketing, or finance, or manufacturing, or 
    administration) is just as difficult a job to do well as engineering, 
    and requires just as many (albeit different) smarts and just as much 
    motiviation and hard work as product design.
    
    Anyone who believes that we could survive with only (or even mainly)
    our engineering talent is sadly mistaken.  It takes contributions
    from *everyone* on the team, and all share equally in our success
    or failure.
    
    That being said, professionals should know how to act appropriately.  
    I would feel naked without my suit becuase of the environment in which 
    I happen to work.  If I was in ZK, I would feel just as naked with
    it.  A dress code is a stupid idea - if people can't (or won't) dress 
    in an appropriate manner (whatever that happens to be), then they are 
    a performance problem and should be dealt with accordingly.  A code is 
    needlessy rigid and simply not necessary.  
    
    The DEC culture is to trust it's employees to do what's right, not to 
    codify and police every facet of work.  A universal dress code runs 
    counter to this philosophy.  Facility or job specific codes (formal
    or implied) may be approriate in certain instances, but I would tend 
    to view the necessity of a formal code as a management failure to 
    communicate job requirements effectively.  You shouldn't need to
    be told how to dress for work.
    
    Al
    

    Well the author of .80 did say that he was looking for some discussion.
    I would say that 40+ replies in 1 1/2 days is more than just some
    discussion.  While I disagree with the point of view, I would like
    to approach the question from a different angle.  Isn't the fact
    that someone who is in a suit and tie is considered to not know anything
    just as bad as assuming that someone not in a coat and tie does not
    have any self-esteem?
    
    As one of the earlier replies said, the enviroment will dictate
    the attire that is appropriate.  When I travel for the company,
    I feel that a suit is proper attire.  But when I visited ZKO, my
    suit was out of place.  If I had gone to Stow, where many SWS and
    other field organizations have offices, I would have blended right
    in.  If you read John Molloy's book or column, people judge those
    that they do not know on first impressions.  One of the classic
    ways is "does this person belong to my class/group/social structure".
    And how is this done, many times by what the other person is wearing
    or how they look.
    
    If we are to break the stereotyping of people, we need to really
    value the differences and not go by first impressions.  We need
    to look at their work and listen to others before judging them.
    We need to treat them as we would like to be treated.
    
    I once heard a story about another computer company where there was
    a standard attire, the blue suit. However the main software
    development was done in a building where everyone dressed casual
    and the customers were not allowed to see them.  The moral of the
    story is that everyone stereotypes programmers as not caring about
    attire.  What we need to do is to rise above this and realize that
    everyone is an individual.
    
    Lee G.

   The only thing I mind is the outbreak of hairy kneesin the summer.

    
    One of the best things about working in engineering is that you can
    wear what you like to work - within reason.
    
    The engineering group in the UK is similar to ZKO. If you look very 
    smart, folks assume you are going for an interview.
    
    Yes, we do try and look smarter if we are going to see customers, but
    all the ones I have ever met have been dressed as if they worked for
    engineering, making us look very stuffy in our smart gear!!
    
                            seals  
    
    PS Anybody else noticed that hardware engineers are more prone to tie
       wearing that software ones? What does it do to the blood supply to
       their brains?? 
    

"Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work" is not a common expression
for no reason.

My most recent "dress" story:

Having been asked to a research center to discuss licensing with a
troubled customer I dutifully put on the suit and tie.  About half
way through my talk I grew very uncomfortable with the general direction
this customer was taking (hardware wise).  But sales was sitting
close by and making me nervous.  I was saying all the right "corporate"
things that I have to do a lot of the time, but the engineer in me
was just busting to get out.  But what if I queered the sale?

Finally I told the room that I "couldn't stand it any longer" and
removed my tie and jacket and rolled up my sleeves and preceeded
to launch into some distinctly unauthorized PID stuff (virtually
admonishing the room that if they didn't get workstations they
were crazy).  That, of course, was considerably outside of their
meager budget and they yelled at sales, "why haven't you told us
this???".

By now I'm afraid to even look at the account rep.  After a nervous
hour of touring (without being able to talk privately) we finally
end up at a DEC only lunch.  "Er, uh, sorry if I distrubed your
account ... I just felt they ought to know".  Sales replied, "Distrub?!?!,
I think you just saved it ... we were about to lose them".

Moral ... well, I don't really know, but it's got something to do
with the DEC (not digital) way of working, and the fact that dress
can affect not only appearance but also action.

There's another story about a presentation to the us corporate
legal staff but this has gotten long already.

- greg

    Re .122:
    
    > Selling (or marketing, or finance, or manufacturing, or 
    > administration) is just as difficult a job to do well as engineering, 
    > and requires just as many (albeit different) smarts and just as much 
    > motiviation and hard work as product design.
    
    Is it easier for an engineer to make sales or for a salesperson to
    design software and hardware?
    
    > . . . all share equally in our success or failure.
    
    If you had to choose between employment or investment with a company
    with only a sales division and a company with only an engineering
    division, which would you pick? 
    
    
    				-- edp 

    < Note 132.127 by BEING::POSTPISCHIL "Always mount a scratch monkey." >
    
>    Is it easier for an engineer to make sales or for a salesperson to
>    design software and hardware?

    No.    
    
>    If you had to choose between employment or investment with a company
>    with only a sales division and a company with only an engineering
>    division, which would you pick? 
    
    Does it matter?  Both are destined to fail - one for an inability
    to sell its product, the other for the lack of product to sell.

    Al
    

Re:  .127 and others

>    Re .122:
>    
>    > Selling (or marketing, or finance, or manufacturing, or 
>    > administration) is just as difficult a job to do well as engineering, 
>    > and requires just as many (albeit different) smarts and just as much 
>    > motiviation and hard work as product design.
>    
>    Is it easier for an engineer to make sales or for a salesperson to
>    design software and hardware?

Like the author of .122, I sense that buried in this discussion about dress
codes is some sense of superiority/inferiority between "engineering" and "the
field".  Despite all our loud proclamations about valuing differences, it would
appear that some of us (in the field) view engineers as 2nd class and that some
of us (in engineering) view field types (aka sales, technical support) as 2nd
class.

This disturbs me and I think is more important an issue that the dress code
topic which flushed it to the surface.

The implication behind the question about (is it easier to for an engineer to
sell or a sales person to engineer) is that one is more intelligent and capable
than the other.

Well, I'm not in sales, but I still feel like that's a slap in the face.  In
the field we work the same long hours, nights, weekends, fight all sorts of
bureaucratic red tape, and work our tails off to deliver quality product (in
our case, it's proposals, training, presentations, solutions) to our customers,
just as engineering works equally as hard building h/w and s/w products.

I was enjoying the discussion about dress code, until we seems to take a turn
towards mean spirited shots.  I hope that such viewpoints are few in number -
after all, we're supposed to be building a "kinder and gentler America", right?
                                     :-)

    re: .129
    
    I'm inclined to agree with you about the turn of events in this
    topic.  Unfortunately, I suspect that in this case we may be a mirror
    reflecting society.  Everyone is probably familiar with sayings
    similar to, "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a
    path to your door.", implying that you don't need marketing, but
    you do need engineering.
    
    I also suspect that there is some jealousy among us in the field.
    The folks in engineering have more freedom in their choice of what
    to wear than we do in the field.  I don't like it, but there isn't
    anything I can do about it, other than try to avoid assignments
    at customers with an IBM mentality.
    
    Every time I go to training, whether it be in the field, or in the
    Northeast, my training confirmation always stresses that "proper
    business attire" is required.  This leads to bizarre situations
    like the VMS 5.0 update seminar (in Bedford?) where the students
    were required to dress like they were going on a sales call,
    but the folks from engineering were free to dress as they normally
    would.  This seems like a double standard.  I wonder what would
    happen if I showed up at an internal course dressed comfortably.
    
    Bob

>    Every time I go to training, whether it be in the field, or in the
>    Northeast, my training confirmation always stresses that "proper
>    business attire" is required.  This leads to bizarre situations
>    like the VMS 5.0 update seminar (in Bedford?) where the students
>    were required to dress like they were going on a sales call,
>    but the folks from engineering were free to dress as they normally
>    would.  This seems like a double standard.  I wonder what would
>    happen if I showed up at an internal course dressed comfortably.

NOTHING!  I think that everyone gets the same confirmation letter.  I think 
that letter covers the bases (classes with and without customers) by saying 
that proper business attire is required.  I spend my time consulting at 
customer sites all the time, so I enjoy dressing casually at courses.  The 
customers at classes I've attended usually start shedding their ties and 
loosening their collars and those out of town wish they had something more 
comfortable to wear.  The moral is, wear what you want within reason to 
class.  I'm sure there are exceptions.  As usual, your own good judgement 
should suffice.

Karen

    Re .128:
    
    > No.    
    
    Let me rephrase the question:  Which is easier, for an engineer to make
    sales or for a salesperson to design software and hardware?
    
    I think the average engineer is capable of explaining their product to
    other people, and that people will buy a good product.  I don't think
    the average salesperson is capable of designing working software and
    hardware.  It's not true that all people have equal capabilities and
    that anybody can accomplish anything they really want to -- some people
    have skills others do not have.  That's life. 
    
    > Both are destined to fail - one for an inability to sell its product,
    > the other for the lack of product to sell. 
    
    Only the company with nothing to sell is doomed to fail.  It's only in
    recent years that Digital has needed to push its products -- good
    products will sell themselves.  Hershey spent not one penny on
    advertising for something like 50 years.  
    
    
    				-- edp 

    re: .131
    
    When I'm in a customer training class, I also get a little blurb
    reminding me that I am in a class attended by customers and to keep
    my mouth shut about company confidential stuff and to not voice
    any negative opinions about the training or products being used.
    
    When I was a customer, I could always spot the Digital employees
    in class.  They were the only ones wearing "proper business attire".
    The rest of us dressed comfortably.
    
    Bob

    re: .132
    
    I once knew a person that was a farmer. He honestly believed that
    if a person was not farming, using his hands(definately NOT her
    hands) to grow crop, the person was a drain on society. If you were
    not a farmer, you were nothing.
    
    Did I hear a similar thought in .132 comments??
    
    Remember to "value differences".
    

    re: .132
    
    I know of many sales and support people who can (and did) engineer
    products.  I suspect that their engineering talent is every bit
    as good (or bad) as the "average" engineer's sales ability.  An
    engineering degree does not confer an insight into sales any more
    than a business degree from Harvard confers an insight into software
    design.
    
    DEC has always had a sales force, at least as long as I have known
    the company (PDP-11/45 days).  You might like to think the products
    sold themselves, but that is patently false.  Good products make
    the sales process easier, but _people_ still need to sell them.
    I suspect that you haven't a clue about how complex the process
    is.  An engineer is not inherently better at sales than a sales person
    is at engineering.  I think people need to wear both sets of shoes
    to really appreciate and understand this.
    
    And I never said people have equal talents - I said that each function
    in DEC shares equal responsibility for success or failure.  That's
    life.  Without people having the specific talents to market, manufacture,
    finance, install, support and sell whatever it is you design, Eric,
    you wouldn't have a job here.  
    
    Al
    

    Re .134:
    
    > Did I hear a similar thought in .132 comments??
    
    You've confused "value" with "skill".  I denied that different people
    all have equal skills.  I said nothing about value.
    
    
    Re .135:    
    
    > I suspect that their engineering talent is every bit as good (or bad)
    > as the "average" engineer's sales ability.
    
    What good is your suspicion?  I equally suspect the reverse.  Let's
    have an engineer and a salesperson trade jobs for a month and see who
    does better.
    
    > An engineering degree does not confer an insight into sales any more
    > than a business degree from Harvard confers an insight into software
    > design.
    
    I didn't say it does.  But one doesn't need as much insight to perform
    sales tasks; they are not as intellectually demanding.  There may be
    other "skills" involved, like persuasion, but the jobs certainly don't
    require equal "smarts" as you said.  If we can't find people to switch
    jobs, then we can compare standardized "smarts" measurements -- let's
    settle this with facts.                
    
    Notice how this grew out of the dress code -- some people observed
    others not dressing according to the "standard", and now their desire
    not to conform to a non-meaningful set of rules is interpreted as a
    social rebuff.  All of a sudden, there's pressure to conform, just to
    avoid being branded as bad.
    
    People are different.  They're different in dress, they're different in
    words, they're different in smarts, they're different in beliefs.
    Valuing differences means ACCEPTING that, not denying it and insisting
    everybody is the same. 
    
    > I suspect that you haven't a clue about how complex the process
    > is. 
    
    So enlighten us.  Make your case.  Tell us how explaining the benefits
    of a product to a customer is as difficult as demonstrating there will
    not be deadlock in a particular design. 
    
    
    				-- edp

    Boy this is a real knock-down drag-out rathole.

    I think that DEC values everyone's contributions or else they wouldn't
    be on the payroll.  It's the height of arrogance to denigrate somebody
    because you don't think their job is worthwhile.  There are many jobs
    I wouldn't want to do but I'm glad someone does them because I need
    the services they provide.  Someone selling the product I help produce
    is one of them.
    
    Martin H.

Which is more essential to the area of a solid: 
	height, width or length?

What is more essential to the success of DEC:
	the so-called 'smarts' of engineers
  or    the persuasion skills of the sales force?

Who should get the acclaim and credit for Digital's impact on the modern world?

Maybe, just maybe, the answer is 'the system', the INTERACTION, the combined 
effect of the efforts of all the employees from the lackadaisical to the 
burn-out to the inventive to the passionate.

My profession is (better/more valuable/smarter/bigger/prettier :pick one) than
yours is a waste of valuable intellectual energies, don't you agree?!

    After reading 138 of these I felt I had to say this.  I am an engineer
    in SWS who happens to wear suits everyday.  Being a customer contacting
    manager, that is essential.  Also, having been a professor of
    engineering and computer science for pre-DEC fourteen years, I am
    used to wearing suits, and like many of you out there, would feel
    naked without one. But that does not mean I pass judgement on anyone
    by the way one is clothed AT WORK OR OTHERWISE.
    
    Also, I am appalled at the judgemental attitude of my fellow techies
    about those who choose not to dress to another (their?) norm.  Whatever
    anyone says, it seems as if even if one does dress in shorts, they
    must be following some tradition, albeit not the one some others
    like me follow.  Let us value the differences of ALL the drummers
    we choose to march to. Thanks for the ear (eye?).^^^
    
    ........ Dr. Suchindran S. Chatterjee

    re. 122:
    
    My original statement whereby customers I've come into contact with
    feel that the 3 piece suits are equated to sales or sales management
    and therefore have less technical skills was one side of the picture.
    Usually by this point I've been brought in to address technical
    issues and the customer wants the most technical detail he can get
    (given that we're in the field). In this arena, technical knowledge
    is the paramount thing that is needed to assure or persuade the
    customer. And this is only one phase of the sales cycle.  The other
    phases do call for a wide mixture of skill sets. I believe that
    in this arena clothes are largely irrelevant (within a certai range,
    of course).
    
    erik g.
    SWS LA

    re: .136
    
    No Eric, I will not be dragged into one of your all too familiar
    pedantic arguments.  If it's not obvious to you that professionals are 
    paid for their ability to solve complex problems, and that complex 
    problems take many forms other than computer software or hardware design,
    then more is the pity for your ignorance.  Does that mean that
    the specific knowledge required to understand a database design
    problem is the same as that needed to understand a customers business
    problem?  Of course not.  Is the same degree of intelligence necessary?
    You bet. Intellect we are born with.  Knowledge comes out of a book.
    
    Why don't you take some time away from your Nintendo to find out more 
    about the _business_ we are in.  You might find that the leaders in 
    _all_ of the major disciplines at DEC have roughly equivalent IQ, 
    cognitive, reasoning and communications skills and, more to the point, 
    they _need_ those skills in order that _we_ may be successful.
    
    The latter part of your reply reads like a rationalization for bigotry.
    I'd like to show the comment about how sales doesn't require a high
    degree of insight to some successful salespeople I know - it would
    be good for some bellylaughs! I'm afraid, protestations to the
    contrary notwithstanding, that you are the one who does not understand 
    how to value differences. It starts with understanding that there are
    skills out there which are just as valuable and require just as much 
    intellect as your own.
    
    Al
    

    Re .137:
    
    Where on Earth did you get this idea about denigrating anybody?  I
    NEVER said such a thing.  Your leap in logic is totally an example of
    what I am opposing.  People are taking differences and making them into
    something bad.  You have somehow interpreted a statement that different
    tasks require different intelligence as an insult.  Please explain to
    me why that is an insult.  I don't see every task in this world
    requiring the same amount of intelligence.  I know I do different
    things that require different amounts of intelligence.  I have some
    idea what's involved with sales, I know what's involved with
    engineering.  Why should I believe these two tasks require the same
    amount of intelligence? 
    
    And if I don't believe they require the same amount of intelligence,
    how is that denigrating to anybody? 
    
    
    Re .138:
    
    > Which is more essential to the area of a solid: 
    >	height, width or length?
    
    Any two of the three will suffice to give surface area to a solid.  You
    would have served your position better to ask about volume.  Instead,
    you have raised other implications.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Dressing up well on a regular basis (once a week, at least) gets
    people used to you dressing up so that one of these days you can
    go to an interview and no one will think that you did. :-) :-)
    
    Dressing up for appropriate situations is "the right thing to do".
    We have outside customers come into CTC all the time and I give
    demos to them on a regular basis.  I wear a suit for those times.
    The customer obviously knows that I'm dressed up for the occasion
    because all the other engineers walk around in sneakers and jeans
    in the area where I give my demos.  When dealing with a customer,
    it gives some level of credibility from you to the customer if you
    dress appropriately.  Of course, I'm usually in jeans and sneakers
    at all other times, though I gave up t-shirts a few years ago.
    
    B.
    

    Re .141:
    
    > No Eric, I will not be dragged into one of your all too familiar
    > pedantic arguments.
    
    Please do not get personal.  I do not understand why you accuse me of
    pedantry when I have just requested you to explain the complexity of
    sales.  You suggested I did not possess certain information.  I
    requested you to enlighten me.  Please do so.
    
    > Why don't you take some time away from your Nintendo . . .
    
    This is not Soapbox; it is a forum where you are expected to act
    responsibly.  I have done nothing to justify personal insults.  I
    request a public apology.
    
    > The latter part of your reply reads like a rationalization for bigotry.
    
    Please explain yourself.  I have NEVER suggested there is less VALUE as
    a person in any person, and I explicitly REJECT such a notion.  I have
    stated more than once that this is a false representation of my
    beliefs, and I will take offense if it is repeated. 
    
    > It starts with understanding that there are skills out there which
    > are just as valuable and require just as much intellect as your own.
    
    You are just repeating yourself; that doesn't help.  I don't believe
    you, and you're not going to convince me by repetition.  I would like
    to advance the conversation; that is why I suggested we actually resort
    to facts.  If an informal survey of intelligence is not sufficient to
    you, then please suggest some other way we can collect facts relevant
    to this matter or otherwise advance the matter.
                                                       
    
    				-- edp           

    It occurs to me that some of the confusion here could be due to people
    relating "value of job" to "value of person".  Suffice it to say that
    this is no more valid for "value of job" than it is for clothing, skin,
    and so on.
    
    
    				-- edp 

    
    The arguments about which is more important to DEC's success
    (i.e. the "suits" vs. the "techie slobs") illustrates how damaging
    the whole idea of a dress code is.  Most people seem to be saying
    "You wear what is appropriate".    Common sense seems to win after
    all.   You wear the clothes that makes the point, impresses the customer,
    doesn't interfere with your work etc...  That seems to be the point
    and it illustrates how superfical a dress code would be to the success
    of this company.   
    

    Getting back to the dress code....I'm wondering what some
    opinions are on dress code for job interview situations?
    Specifically, for an internal interview, do you think
    a suit and tie for men, skirt/dress for women is appropriate?
    I'm talking about the interviewee here, not the interviewer.
    Would anyone consider going on a job interview without a tie?
    Or jacket?
    
    Donna

>    Would anyone consider going on a job interview without a tie?
>    Or jacket?
    
    Depends on what the interviewer is looking for.  If they expect suit
    and tie, I'll be there in suit and tie.  If they don't care about how I
    dress (as was the case for DEC internal interviews I went on for a
    software position), I'll be there in jeans or cords.  This is the same
    bottom line as before.  Am I being interviewed for my appearance, my
    technical abilities, my personality or a combination of the three?  A
    model is obviously mostly appearance (of the three casually dropped
    categories).  A person involved in human relations need appearance and
    personality.  An engineer needs technical abilities (although for some
    reason they've usually got a rather odd personality).  Etc.
    
    RE: Valuing jobs and people
    
    I'd say that the violent discussion in preceeding notes is a pretty
    healthy indication that we all think we're valuable to DEC.  I say that
    even though it comes out as "the other guy isn't as valuable as I am".
    If this discussion never got started, I'd say we were just fooling
    ourselves.  There's nothing like a knock-down drag-out discussion to
    point out how things really are.
    
    To drop in my two cents worth on this, if I can see a person working
    hard and well and constructively at a job, I don't really care what the
    job is.  If you're a ditch digger and you're good at it and ditches
    need to be dug, then I'm all for it.  If you aren't any good at digging
    ditches then my opinion of your value is going to drop.  If ditches
    don't need to be dug, then my opinion of your job's value is going to
    drop.
    
John
    

>    Would anyone consider going on a job interview without a tie?
>    Or jacket?
 
    I interviewed at DEC (as an external candidate) wearing a shirt and slacks -
no jacket, no tie. I figured that I didn't plan to wear them on the job, so why
lie about what I was in the interview.

    This conference reads more like SOAPBOX every day.  I ran out of
    patience with this topic around reply #91.
    
    karl

    re: .152
    
    Yes, but Karl, you've been known to run out of patience before ...
    
    :-)

    re: interview dress code
    
    Over dress is the rule of thumb. I would say a safe exception would
    be interviewing with in your current group. Interviewers expect
    you to be dressed up more. I don't think an interview situation
    is any time to test out the "I've gotta be me" theory. 
    
    The interviewer (especially recruiter) gets the message that you
    don't care enough about the job to treat it as a "serious" interview,
    if you come "dressed down".
    
    Gail

	I got giggled at when I showed up for my interview with a 
	really casual outfit with a very narrow tie. By the end of the
	interview, the tie was gone for fear that they WOULDN'T hire
	me! :-) :-) (just joking)

	This is in VMS Development so it makes sense.. It probably doesn't
	in "The New Digital".  (Thank God I'm a DECcie and not a Digital
	Employee)  Somehow, I think I'm gonna be here for a long time..

							mike

If I had shown up for my interviews wearing a tie the last time I changed jobs
I would have been the only person wearing one.  The appropriate dress for an
interview is what you expect the people who will be making the hire/no-hire
decision to be wearing.

re Eric and relative IQs for engineering and sales.

Eric, before joining the RSX group ten years ago I spent three and a half years
working with DEC sales reps on a daily or at least weekly basis.

Some of those sales reps were every bit as smart as the people whose initials
are in the early RSX-11M exec sources.  Those reps used their intelligence to
figure out how to win sales which might have otherwise gone to the competition.

Others of those sales reps were only as smart as the people whose initials are
in the source code of (insert your favorite boat-anchor software product).
Those reps were basically order-takers who worked on accounts where the customer
knew he wanted DEC stuff and was able to figure out without a lot of help from
DEC what configurations were best for their own applications.

/john

    Out of curiousity, what does Engineering management wear?  Every
    time I see a picture of Jack Smith, he's got a suit on (which doesn't
    suprise me) but I don't know anything about the layers of management 
    between him and the I.C.'s.  How does the average Engineering line 
    manager dress for success?

    re: Eric
    
    Look, I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but so far
    you've made it mighty difficult.  Before I light a candle in the
    dark, why don't you clarify your point.  No one contests that the
    specific skills needed to solve engineering problems are different
    than those needed to solve manufacturing scheduling or sales strategy
    problems, to use examples.  I and others contend that the intelligence 
    needed (and we'll stick to an "objective" metric, like IQ) for each of 
    them is roughly equal.
    
    Is your point that the IQ needed to solve engineering problems is
    higher than others?  That people in other disciplines have lower
    IQ's (on the average) than those in Engineering?  Or that they have
    high IQ's but don't need to use them?  Or that the knowledge (not
    intelligence) needed to succeed in sales is obvious, whereas it
    is not for engineering?
    
    Al
    

    I had been told that the Digital dress code really boils down to
    
    ...clothing *is* required

    Instead of writing about 5 pages, I would like to redirect the topic
    back to dress at internal classes.  I have heard that instructors
    will "INFORM" an employees supervisor if that employee attending
    his/her class does not wear business attire.
    
    In my almost five years with this company, I've never worn business
    attire to an internal course, and I don't think I've ever been "docked"
    for it.
    
    Anyone else out there have any experience with this?
    
    Doug

    I wish the "you are what you do...  not how expensive your suit is"
    attitude would get out here to where the field grunts are.  I'm a
    SOFTWARE person, not marketing, sales, or sales support.  I may not
    have writtne an operating system for Digital, but I've done my share of
    system analysis, design, and creating working applications to solve
    customer problems.  
    
    Back a ways in these replies there was mention that customers WANTED
    to see software people from Digital dressed casually rather than
    looking like manequins.  I wish to hell someone would come out here and
    make that message clear to our management and sales.  I sure can't
    figure out how my wearing a tie when I'm on a project makes me write
    better code!  I have a project manager to dress up like a and go play
    kissy-face with the customer.  
    
    As a SECONDHAND story, our one rebel who consistently REFUSED to wear a
    tie in the office (he dressed in a coat and tie for meeting customers) was
    supposedly informed that this was "CAREER LIMITING"!!!!!!  He
    "would not be promoted further" until he conformed.  He hasn't!
    
    Is there any real evidence pro or con that customers prefer our
    technical people looking casual rather than in suits?  Or is it simply
    a rationale put forth to preserve a comfortable way of life for those
    fortunate enough not to be in the field?  I've had more than one field
    person (admittedly only sales and/or sales support) insist that WE HAVE 
    TO BE AS WELL OR BETTER DRESSED THAN THE CUSTOMER.  But, this is the
    first I've seen of any argument that says this isn't true.  
    
    Or alternatively...  how's the cost of living in ZK compared to
    Minneapolis, and do you have any openings?  I'd like to come to work in
    grubbies too, without having my career flushed!

    re: .159
    
    The very first course I took at BUO, I wore a suit.  It was a mix
    of internal people and customers.  I was the only one so dressed.
    From then on I never even brought a tie to training until the first
    management course I took.  I showed up bright and early with my
    jeans, sneakers and flannel shirt.  Ooops, I was the odd man out
    again.  The instructor, who worked in the district I was from, showed
    up the rest of the week in casual dress.  We showed the rest of
    those stiffs how to dress...
    
    re: .160
    
    It's quite simple - the "penalty" for overdressing is much less
    than that for underdressing.  How many managers will expose themselves
    to risk over an ostensibly minor issue?
    
    Al
    

    Re: .160
    
    O.K.  To answer you question:
    
    Prior to my becomming a Software Specialist in the Seattle delivery
    unit, I was a Digital customer, in charge of a computer center for
    the Coast Guard in Juneau, AK.
    
    When we finally got our first VAX in, Digital decided to place a
    Field Service tech in town on a permenant basis.  I specifically
    informed him that when he came to our site, I prefered that he dress
    casually and comfortably.  I initiated that conversation.
    
    What were my motivations?  Quite simply:
    
    1.  The more comfortable the hardware tech was, the better he would
    work and be able to do his job.
    
    2.  Juneau can sometimes be a rather difficult climate to go around
    in dressed in coat and tie.
    
    3.  Many of the other civilians (I was an 0-2 at the time so I had
    to wear a uniform) dressed casually, and it would have been
    out-of-place for him to have been dressed up.
    
    Doug

    Re .157:
    
    > I and others contend that the intelligence needed (and we'll stick to
    > an "objective" metric, like IQ) for each of them is roughly equal.
    
    Fine, but why won't you give me an example?  John gave you a starting
    point.
                                   
    > Is your point that the IQ needed to solve engineering problems is
    > higher than others?
    
    Not all "others", but most, on the average.
    
    > That people in other disciplines have lower IQ's (on the average)
    > than those in Engineering?
    
    Again, not all "others" (like physics).  But certainly the fields of
    study available in this world impose different requirements of
    intelligence.  More intelligent people will have the more difficult
    fields open to them, so you will find higher numbers of intelligent
    people in difficult fields.  A less intelligent person might also want
    to go into physics, but it's going to be harder for them. 
    
    > Or that the knowledge (not intelligence) needed to succeed in sales
    > is obvious, whereas it is not for engineering?
    
    I wouldn't entirely disagree with that.  I might even agree with it
    somewhat.  More along that line, I would say sales involves different
    skills, and I wouldn't call all of them skills of intelligence.
    Intelligence undoubtedly helps at all sorts of tasks, but the degree to
    which it is called for differs. 
    
    
    				-- edp

    This note is going the way of PEAR::SOAPBOX.  This conference is
    about Digital, how it works, why it works, things going on in Digital
    that might be of interest, and things that need an avenue of being
    discussed.
    
    For now, I am setting this note nowrite.   After Consulting with
    the other mods, I will either delete the whole topic, return replies
    in this topic that are of PEAR::SOAPBOX caliber, or allow a cool
    off period and reopen it...
    
    You are free to type KP "7" and continue this there...
    
    Gale L. Kleinberger
    co-mod