Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

    If I'm not mistaken color output is not supported in V1, although I
    have seen a few notes where folks are getting around it to get to an
    lj250.
    
    But you're right ... yes we have no color postscript printer. I have
    asked, as have others, but it's my perception that until more
    applications require it there won't be one. Apparently the DDIF folks
    are just strugling with the issue of color support in the DDIF format
    specification. There are a couple applicatoins which really support
    postscript in color now, but they are not for customers (RAGS...
    notesfile closet::doc_graphics). In addition the imaging folks don't
    have any hard product requirements for color scanners either. As you
    say, it occurs to me that to compete with other desktop solutions we
    need support for color applications, and color hardware. My only issue
    is where these issues are in the post v1 priority list.  My gut feel
    tells me that they should be extremely high since thats where MAC/PC
    applications are proceeding most rapidly. If you feel real strongly
    there are several places to get your inputs in; the wishlist topic in
    this conference, the postscript conference, and the imaging conference.
    
    
    	Regards,
    
    		Mike Weaver

    The lack of color in our V1 DECwindows applications is 
    (in my opinion) due to the development schedule of Image
    Services Libraries, or whatever they're called now.  These
    libraries and related services, such as command line access
    to image manipulation, are available on VMS as a supported
    product but not yet for color.  If you really want color 
    in workstation applications, then make sure that Product
    Management (for both applications and for the imaging services)
    understands your specific requirements (including schedules!).
    The best way to make this all happen is to get dramatically
    increased resources for the Image Services Group.
    
    John Hoffman
    ULTRIX DECwindows Engineering

    Color images are only a part of color support.  There's color text and
    color line graphics (and when we get voice, color commentary?).  Not to
    mention color printing.  We've got most of a DDIF Viewer that fully
    supports color ready for the next release of DW.  I'm pretty sure the
    PostScript back end supports color today, but we don't have a DEC
    supplied printer to use with it.
    
    Bottom line, same message -- push on the product managers.

     If you really want color 
>    in workstation applications, then make sure that Product
>    Management (for both applications and for the imaging services)
>    understands your specific requirements (including schedules!).
>    The best way to make this all happen is to get dramatically
>    increased resources for the Image Services Group.
>    
>    John Hoffman
>    ULTRIX DECwindows Engineering


The interesting component of what you say John, is that the product marketing
folks for imaging do not percieve there is a market requirement for color and
from a straw poll within my group, no one else sees the handwriting on the wall
either! Although they can see the need for video, it does'nt occur to them that
hardcopy and scanning are the logical conclusion to the customers needs
(color). 

It's beginning to be a standard occurence as I walk into an account to see a
MAC II tied to a Sharp color scanner. In some cases there is a VAXServer of
some sort nearby, but not in the majority of cases. Another occurence is that
the requirement is popping into more and more RFx's.

I agree that something needs to be done, I have already talked to several folks
in DSG, and the imaging group. They need more than one person to get the point
across to their marketing troups. The engineers were so excited about marketing
themselves that they offered to come out and talk to my group.

If you need a starting point in quest for the right person try Bill Mc Donough
of DSG. He may not be the right person, but he will refer you.


Regards,

		Mike Weaver

I'm not supprised that we can get good support for hardcopy image 
products. We can't get anyone convinced that there's a market for
high volume plain text! A small story illustrates my point. We have
an LPS40 which usually requires it 50K page maintenance about every
two to three weeks. It's a shared resource for our whole department
and there is at least 5 documentation groups which use it for producing
drafts and final copy. Well, needless to say, the printer is broken 
a lot. The problems range from simply not marking correctly, smudging
the paper with execess toner, or on occasion just refusing to operate
at all. (For now, lets ignore the software problems...)

We told of our experiences with this fine device to various individuals
in hardcopy product management and were promptly told - "Stop it, you're
printing too much on it." One individual (who will remain nameless) even 
suggested that the jobs we were printing on it were "too big" and that
"it works best when you print jobs of only 2 or 3 pages." We were dumb-
founded by this attitude.

Well excuse me, it's a printer, it's job is to print. It's not acceptable
to say "only print small jobs" -- that's like saying "don't drive your
car very far at a time". Anyway, upon hearing that we were "abusing"
our printer by asking it to do it's job, we suggested that if it was
not designed to do such a large volume, what was needed was a high volume
engine capable of taking the volume. We were promptly told that there
was "no market for such a printer". I'm not sure what planet this individual
is from, but obviously they haven't looked at an American Express bill
or a phone bill in a very long time. Not only are they laser printed forms,
but Am-Ex is now sending you scaned images of you credit slips (and some
companies like the airlines just use EDI to submit the electronicly). Now I'm
not sure, but I tend to believe that these types of potential customers 
would look at our toy - the LPS40 - and just laugh then call Xerox, Kodak,
or IBM to buy a real printer.

Even if we didn't build it, what would be wrong with buying one, sticking
our name on it and saying - "ta-da..." - it might even make some money!
We might even be able to sell an OLTP system to someone that could use such
a large printer. I mean we finally sell an (IBM) tape subsystem that is 
real, we finally have disks which are large enough, our 6x60 processors are
beginning to be fast enough, and the desktop strategy is delivering a powerful
message - but we have toys for hardcopy output. It's pretty hard to sell 
someone a system if they have to start last week to print next weeks statements.

James

>
>I'm not supprised that we can get good support for hardcopy image 
>products. We can't get anyone convinced that there's a market for
>high volume plain text! A small story illustrates my point. We have
>an LPS40 which usually requires it 50K page maintenance about every
>two to three weeks. It's a shared resource for our whole department
>and there is at least 5 documentation groups which use it for producing
>drafts and final copy. Well, needless to say, the printer is broken 
>a lot. The problems range from simply not marking correctly, smudging
>the paper with execess toner, or on occasion just refusing to operate
>at all. (For now, lets ignore the software problems...)
>
>We told of our experiences with this fine device to various individuals
>in hardcopy product management and were promptly told - "Stop it, you're
>printing too much on it." One individual (who will remain nameless) even 
>suggested that the jobs we were printing on it were "too big" and that
>"it works best when you print jobs of only 2 or 3 pages." We were dumb-
>founded by this attitude.
>
>Well excuse me, it's a printer, it's job is to print. It's not acceptable
>to say "only print small jobs" -- that's like saying "don't drive your
>car very far at a time". Anyway, upon hearing that we were "abusing"
>our printer by asking it to do it's job, we suggested that if it was
>not designed to do such a large volume, what was needed was a high volume
>engine capable of taking the volume. We were promptly told that there
>was "no market for such a printer".


This attitude from product management seems strange.  There are several
questions that arise from it.

1) Is it reasonable to expect a single LPS40 to serve such a large group of
   people printing such large jobs?
2) Do our competitors supply such?  (Or do people like AMEX use alot of
   prints to cover their needs?)
3) If it is reasonable and their are machines (in the same price range) which
   can handle the job, how big is the market?  (Big enough to warrant building
   one?  Or should we buy one?)

It is clear that some anecdotes indicate that we should have such high capacity
printing.  However, it may be that these anecdotes just demonstrate people
trying to carry the whole football team in a VW bug from here to Buenos
Aries on a single tank of gas, with no spare tires or oil changes  8^{).

Anybody have a good handle on this?

Dick

    Maybe we don't have a colour Postscript printer right now, but we do
    have customers with LGP01's and LJ250's which support colour sixel.
                
    Many of these have been sold for colour hardcopy from VWS, a capability
    customers will loose with DECwindows. Fair enough we can't get
    everything into FRS DECwindows, but we should be able to say when we
    intend to support colour, if not with colour Postscript, then initially
    with colour sixels.
                                                                        
    Andrew