Conference turris::womannotes-v3

I would NEVER NEVER NEVER throw away letters from and photos of past lovers.
I have kept every single card and letter I have recieved since the age of
12, as well as photos!!  If a lover (or anyone else) suggested that I not
keep them I would laugh in hir face!  You've got to be keeping - my link to
the past is as precious to me as my hope for the future.

I wouldn't want my lover snooping through my things.   On the other hand, I
also don't like the idea of secrets between me and my SO.  I wouldn't snoop
through his stuff with the intent of discovering his secrets, but I would want
hir to tell me all the important stuff, therefore I wouldn't expect to find
anything surprising if, say, I went into hir top drawer looking for a pair of
socks to borrow.

There is a difference between privacy and secrecy.  My diary is very 
private - I would not allow my lover to read it, and I would never abide hir
reading it without my permission.  That is privacy.  So is that fact that
I like to spend time alone and with other friends.  But if there was
something important that my lover would want to know or should know, I would
tell hir - that is (absence of) secrecy.

D!

    
    Somewhat related is:
    
    HUMAN_RELATIONS
    519 - should I not be concerned
    
    -Jody
    
    

    
    I don't know if I'd want to see all an SO's love letters from former
    lovers and pictures all over his room, or our room, or whatever, but I
    can't say as I object to his having them.  As long as *I* don't have to
    look at them all the time, and as long as he doesn't seem overly
    obsessed with them, I don't feel it's a problem.  I know a man who kept
    a picture of an ex-girlfriend in lingerie on his wall for several years
    after they brokeup - I don't think I could deal with that really well.
    
    I keep them or not, depending on how the relationship ended.  If it
    ended very negatively, I often purge all memorabilia.  If the
    relationship ended positively, I may remove the detritus from the
    relationship, but keep some of the more touching notes or warm pictures
    (although I generally won't look at them for a while, because it hurts
     to look at it too soon after a breakup).
    
    As for snooping, I am ashamed to say I have snooped once or twice, but
    only when things were "left out" so to speak.  I hated myself for doing
    it, but I suspected things and was frightened.  I'd say that trust is
    the only way to go in a relationship now, and doubt should be discussed
    rather than snooped around for.  I'd say privacy is vital - he stays
    out of anything I denote as MINE and I stay out of anything he denotes
    as HIS.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    [.0: If this is another textbook question, I'm _dying_ to know what
    course you're taking!]
    
>What do you think about your current husband or very serious boyfriend
>keeping past photos or letters from past lovers? 

    Well, if I had one... ;-)
    
    What I'd think would depend on how he felt about those past lovers; if
    the mementos were more valuable to him than I was, I'd raise some
    questions, but if it were simply a matter of his wanting to keep them
    as memories of a significant episode in his life, I wouldn't mind at
    all.

>Does he have a right to keep them in a box in the closet? 
    
    He would have a _right_ to keep them wherever he wants (short, perhaps,
    of taping them to the windshield of my car).

>Would you snoop? 

    No. Well, probably not. ;-) I have a high regard for privacy, and
    wouldn't go delving through someone else's things - but if a stack of
    photos or opened letters were left lying around in the open, I
    certainly might look through them. And I'm not so saintly that I
    mightn't succumb to temptation if I stumbled across an unlabeled,
    unsealed box in a closet, either... 

>Would you ask him to throw them out or burn them or would you do it
yourself? 

    Neither. If I *did* for some reason have a problem with his feelings
    about a prior relationship, I'd tell him about it, and if he had lots
    of photos and things lying around I _might_ ask him if he'd put them
    away. (Or, in a general fit of cleaning up, I might ask whether some
    things could go to the dump, but that wouldn't be because they were old
    love letters, but because they were taking up space.)

    I would never discard or destroy someone else's belongings without their 
    knowledge and consent. 

>What about your photos or letters from past lovers.  Should you be able
>to keep them? 

    Sure. 

>How do feel about him going through your closet or drawers? 

    Depends what for. I don't like the idea of someone feeling s/he could
    just look through my stuff, but people I care about could go hunting
    for stamps or a spare handkerchief or something without bothering me. I
    would hope to be asked for permission before someone read my letters or
    journals;  and, if he was chronically suspicious of me, that would be
    grounds for a  serious discussion.

>What if he asked you to throw out your photos? 

    We'd have to talk about it - what really bothered him, etc. If it meant
    a lot to him, I'd probably go along with it, but this is _really_
    speculative for me. 

>Would you do it or would you care if he burned them himself? 

    If he really wanted *me* to burn old photos or letters, well - I
    honestly don't know what I'd do. But if he deliberately disposed of
    something of  mine without my consent I very much think that would be
    the end of our  relationship. 

>Should each partner have a right to private/secret property? 

    Private, yes. "Secret" has a different context for me, as in one
    partner setting up a hidden bank account into which a certain
    percentage of the household money is smuggled, or as in having another
    family on the side. So, privacy/secrecy is fine as long as it isn't
    something illegal or otherwise harmful to the other party. 
    
    -b

she speaks from the heart.

what is love, if it does not include trust?

if the pix and letters are not held up as a standard which must be measured
up to; if they lie forgotten for all but a day in 5 years when that drawer is 
cleaned out, and then for the next 5 years, what's the problem?

if on that day that stuff is "discovered" and becomes an issue, if  past
feelings for people no longer in your lives (but of whom one of you may wish
to keep momentos) become an issue, then where is the trust in love?

I hate jealousy.  I have a hard time understanding how it can be part of love,
without being controlling and destructive of trust, in both directions.

    
    The mementos my partner keeps is none of my business, as long
    as they aren't illegal or waft a pungent odor.  I'm not at an 
    insecure point in my life where I feel threatened by a box of 
    letters tied together by red ribbons, or yellowing photos of 
    past lovers.  No one comes wrapped in cellophane.  We all have 
    a past.  It's what has shaped us, taught us, guided us, helped
    mold us into the people we are today.  It's something I have
    learned to celebrate, both in myself and in my partner.
    
    I tend to turn questions like these around: Is there a reason
    for my partner to be threatened by what I have saved over the 
    years.  Absolutely not.  I have fond memories of past lovers
    (some horrendous ones too, but I never saved the stuff they
    gave me) which are safely and warmly tucked in a Memory Corner
    where they don't dissipate or become non-events, regardless of
    how deeply involved I become with someone else.
    
    Having lived alone for almost 10 years, I'm very protective
    about my privacy.  I was never used to putting things where 
    no one else could see them, or hiding past love letters, or
    tucking away correspondence from former lovers I still hear
    from, or censoring my phone conversations.  I, too, am not so
    saintly that I haven't done my share of snooping in the past, 
    oblivious of the violation I was doing to the other person's 
    privacy.
    
    Then someone moved in with me, someone who snooped and then
    would underhandedly confront me with his discoveries.  When I
    realized what was going on, this shot all my flares high into 
    the air!
    
    I learned about boundaries, and how to set my own, and how to 
    respect someone else's, and I would *never* rummage through a 
    lover's or a friend's possessions, knowing how massively icky 
    it felt when someone went through mine.  Also, I have reached 
    a point in my life where I would not get intimately involved 
    with someone who would do such a thing.  There are many old
    skeletons in my closet, some even still dance now and then, 
    but I'm not shameful nor secretive about any of it -- and in a
    trusting, loving relationship, my partner trusts and respects 
    me (and my boundaries) enough to not violate me, to accept what
    I choose to share with her.  Similarly, I don't feel the need 
    to censor, nor violate, her belongings.  Doesn't feel right to
    me.
    
    Carla
    

    If a person is not secure at present she/he would be worried about
    the past...
    I personally don't worry for any of that stuff, I have no secrets and
    hide NOTHING from my husband.  He can go anywhere and seek ANYTHING in
    my drawers, closets, etc without the slightest problem from me. I can
    do the same too, HE hides nothing from me and that is the way we both
    ARE. We have full confidence in each other and would never sneak on 
    each other, we just ask whatever and that is the end of it.
    I feel that a person is entitled to privacy if so he\she chooses, I
    "chose" not to have privacy, but it was my choice not to hide a thing
    from my husband, (that was a personal choice).
    

    
    
    I like to read through my love letters WITH my current girlfriend, and
    I love to read through her old ones with her.
    
    I also don't see anything wrong with snooping--unless they have told
    you not to.
    
    Nick
    

    
    
    	Without reading the other replies....
    
    	Yes, Cary has some old photos of Sheila....his biggest love
    	before he met me.  And it doesn't bother me.  I know that 
    	was part of his life and most of it was happy for him so
    	he wants to hang onto the memories.  Same reason I have 
    	pictures of ex-boyfriends and old love letters.  The letters
    	are in a box 'somewhere'.  If he ever asked me to throw them
    	away, I would be very upset.  Every one of them meant something
    	different to me and they were part of my life and part of who
    	I am.....I would never part with the memories.
    
    	JJ
    

I've certainly had problems with jealousy in the past and to a lessor
extent today.  I basically agree with what Carla said (at least in
theory).

I keep every letter ever sent to me by US mail basically and it's
important for me to do that so I would not honor a request to get rid
of the stuff.  Once in a while I'll look thru old love letters for a
kick.  It's pretty interesting to read the really old ones!  ;-)

Part of having a new lover for me generally seems to be learning the
other's person history (or what they want to share of it).  I'm
learning to be happy with what people want to share and not demand to
know more.  Likewise with myself, I like to share stuff that I feel is
important to me in terms of relationships.  If someone starts asking
too much or asks from a position of insecurity (as I perceive it),
I'll usually start poking around into where they are coming from.
That's because my past probally isn't the real issue that needs to be
worked.

I know when I have been jealous in the past (and in particular one
relationship where I had a real problem) no amount of disclosure or
reassurance would have satisfied me.  Once I started snooping around,
I couldn't stop and I hated myself for it which lowered my self-esteem
which made me more insecure.  I think you have to love yourself to
love someone else.  

I'm trying to get the point where I will love someone unconditionally
even if they choose not to be with me anymore.  That means that love
goes beyond *my relationship* with that person on my terms.  Not that
I might feel not hurt or express it if that was a choice someone wanted to
make.  But if handled well, that means the love survives in a
different form.  In my last serious relationship before my current
one, my lover made the choice to leave and it was a wonderful feeling
to see our friendship actually continue to grow even though we weren't
lovers anymore.  It took me some time and space to get to that point
and a lot of tears and feeling sorry for myself but I kept in touch
and kept the faith.  It's so easy to close down everything in hurt or
anger I think and limit the possibilities.  I think a lot of the
mourning I do is based on the loss of my idea of what the relationship
was or my idea of what could be which is really self-centered.  I'm
not going to hurt myself, but I do try and ask the question:  how can
I best support this person's life?  

I'm going thru the fusion/falling in love process now and it's
interesting to me to see the some of the same old issues come up.  In
my case now, due to life circumstances and distances and jobs, it's
not clear that a long term thing will happen.  So the challenge is to
love someone for just today.  There are practical considerations but I
can't help wondering if that is the best that can be done anyway.
It's amazing to me how soon the desire to create security,
committment, safety arises out of fear or loss (for me, that's where
it seems to come from).  That that kind of love seems very conditional
to me.  I wonder what is possible when that is let go and only being
of service to someone else's life is considering in the moment?  Not
out of fear of loss or desire for security which are self-centered.
Ironically, people seem to react to the kind of love that is not
self-centered by wanted to stay around and want to run away from love
that is self-centered.

So I think fear is the emotion to look at when jeolousy comes up.
What is that fear about?  Can I be with it and work through it?

So, anyways, I'd like to have a philosophy of being available to
relationships if that's what I want and what the other person wants.
So if they want to be with me great.  If not, then it's their loss but
I will try and support them in their life (not in sexual relationship
with me).

peace,
john

    re.4
    
    No, this is not a text book question.  Your question made me chuckle.
    
    This is just something that has come up between my ex and I.  Jealousy
    is something that has hung around in our partnership.  I never knew
    until now, how jealous of a person I can be.  I really do appreciate
    everyone's replies.  They seem to make me come back down to reality
    and not blow everything out of porportion.
    
    Before he and I were even married, I had some pictures of me and
    my first puppy love.  I was 16 in the pictures and they meant alot
    to me.  I wasn't in love with the young guy in the photo anymore,
    but those photos were of such an innocent time.  Well, my soon to
    be then husband, took them out my photo album and burned each one
    in front of our trailer with his bic lighter.  I was practically
    in tears.  God, he became insane!!  Thought I was way to emotional
    and attached to those photos.  
    
    Anyway, now 10 years later and a five year divorce, there's been
    many old boyfriends in my past and apparently a few girls in his.
     God, I feel like the shoe is on the other foot.  I am finding it
    hard to believe that he could love someone else enough to marry.
     I know, this is so obnoxious and ain't I got a big head, but that's
    how I feel, just can't help it.  I'm just waiting for time to take
    care of all this now.  But in the mean time, I don't want to come
    across any of his past lovers.  It really makes me wince.  
    
    I'll probably just forget about his old treasures as time goes by,
    but if he suggests burning any of mine, fine.  I've got no problem
    with it at all.  But, then he'll have to burn his too.  Maybe we'll
    have a ritual burning our past 5 years.  Even though it was a time
    of growing, I guess I should be grateful for the improvement, it's
    just kinda hard.  

>    What do you think about your current husband or very serious boyfriend
>    keeping past photos or letters from past lovers?  

It's good! It's positive. It's warm and human. What I would find ugly is 
someone who says "I love you, sweetie, so screw that dog" and tosses
photos and letters of the ex into the fire.  That is saying the end of a
romance earns contempt for an old love. Very goofy. 

A few decades ago, a fellow proposed to me and I declined. There were
no hard feelings at all; we had been at the fun and freindly date
stage. (He was simply suffering from a deep need to be married.)  We
remained friends. Four or five months later he threw a *giant* party
for almost everyone in our large academic unit but didn't invite me.
He has always stuck in my head as embodying an odd view of people:
regarding me, as a woman, worth marrying but, as a friend and
co-student, not worth inviting to his party. The point -- which is
maybe not so clear -- is that some folks seem to make a Big 
unnecessary distinction between people and lovers.

I'm sorry your photos are gone. By my lights, the person who burned them
was meanspirited, to say the least.

> ... photos or letters from past lovers.  Should you
>    be able to keep them?  

To say otherwise is to say a portion of your present life should 
obliterate the fullness of your past life. Forget it!!!

If someone asked me to throw out old photos and letters, I would
suggest he or she get themselves off to a shrink.  Quickly and
Seriously.  Someone asking that is waving a Great Big Sign saying 
"You should avoid me." 

My journal is exceedinly private. The front page advises anyone who
comes across it (which assumes I'm dead) to please destroy it and
not read it. A stranger could care less, but any family member or
close friend who tromped thru it would not find it a good experience.
In a few ways, I could regard it as a bomb ... and if I were a saint,
I would feel obligated to get rid of it. But it is valuable to me --
regardless of how others' might feel, should they trespass -- so
I'm keeping it.

    
    RE:  A warning not to read it on the first page
    
    
    That is the last thing you want to do!  Do you think someone would
    actually *not* read it then?
    
    What you should do is give it a boring title like "My Recipes" and then
    have the first few pages and the last few pages be actual recipes. 
    It'll be dropped in a second.
    
    Nick
    

        re:
        
>>    That is the last thing you want to do!  Do you think someone would
>>    actually *not* read it then?
        
        Yes, I think there are many people who would not read it
        then.  Or even without the warning, who would stop
        reading it upon realizing what it was.
        
        Dan

    Anyone who goes snooping into other people's private affairs (such as
    their diaries) deserves what they get, and I would have no sympathy if
    afterwards they came to me crying about how hurt their feelings were. 
    My response would be "look, buddy, if you didn't want to know, you
    shouldn't have gone poking around; there was a *reason* I didn't say
    that to you in person!"  I have no warnings on any of my diaries since
    I was 12.  They are all easily identifiable as such, and if anyone
    *really* wants to know, well, they deserve it then.
    
    I don't care what happens to them if I die, but I don't want them
    destroyed in case it turns out that I become post-humously famous, like
    Anne Frank.
    
    D!

    I have also been known to give certain sections of my diary to friend
    or lovers to read.  Sometimes to show them stages I have gone through,
    or because I want to tell them something I am having trouble putting
    into words.
    
    There was one lover I gave my entire diary to, told him he could read
    it from beginning to end.  He started to and then got bored and
    stopped; I was terribly hurt!  It was horrible to realize for the first
    time that the person I loved was not necessarily interested in every
    boring detail of my life!
    
    D!

    
    Once an old SO let me read my mail with his computer and modem, as he
    often did, but this time secretly  with the "capture" on, and he READ
    what I had read after I logged out.
    
    After I found this out, it created the straw that broke the camel's
    back in our relationship.
    
    Privacy and trust are vital.
    
    -Jody

    My personal stuff (Photos, notes, etc...) from past boyfriends
    are my memories & part of my past, as so would be my husbands. 
    I would never ask him to throw away something that is/was a part of
    him, and he wouldn't ask me.
      
    HRH

    I wouldn't expect an SO to go through their photo albums and throw out
    all the pictures of anybody they'd ever dated or gone to bed with.  I
    would certainly never do it.  Some former lovers become friends and the
    significance of a picture is that it's of a friend, not a lover.  Other
    long term relationships were big parts of my life.  I wouldn't throw
    away my past for anybody or expect them to do it for me.
    
    However, there are limits to what I think is acceptable behavior. 
    For example, one of my former live-in boyfriends had a habit of
    bragging about how beautiful one of his previous girlfriends had been. 
    Whenever a photo of her popped up anywhere amongst his things, he would
    unfailingly remark in wonder about how stunningly beautiful she had
    been.  *sigh*  That type of thing can get old fast.  He, also, had a
    t-shirt with her face on it.  One of those computer done things you can
    buy in tacky souvenir shops.  He kept that damn t-shirt in his dresser
    drawer for the entire 2 1/2 yrs. I lived with him.  He thought it was
    amusing to occasionally tease me that he was going to wear it somewhere
    with me.  Of course, adding, that it was remarkable how stunningly
    gorgeous she was.  *sigh*  (Heck of a sense of humor.)  I used to tell
    him that I didn't care if he kept it in his dresser drawer, but if he
    ever wanted to actually *wear* it, he'd better see if he could round
    her up to go out *with*, too, because he wouldn't be going anywhere
    with me ever again.  (Actually, now that I reflect upon it, I think I
    should have strangled the bastard with that damn t-shirt.)  (He turned
    out to be a bastard for a lot of other reasons...the t-shirt was
    actually minor but sometimes it's the minor things that make a person
    finally flip out.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I must admit that before I got married I did throw out all the photos I
    could find of my ex-fiance.  I may still have one or two that I don't
    know about though.
    
    I was in a situation similar a couple of years ago.  When I first
    starting going out with my husband, his ex-fiancee decided that she
    wanted him back.  She made a *real* pain out of herself, forever
    phoning him up, asking him out, asking if he loved me, saying things
    like "won't she ever let you off your lead then?" when he refused to
    see her.  Andy tried telling her not to phone but he wouldn't be too
    horrible because he didn't want things getting too nasty, and at the
    time it was only him she was contacting.  As far as he was concerned,
    if he could keep her away from me he was protecting me, and he thought
    that if he started hanging up on her she'd start phoning me!
    
    Anyway, after she'd heard we got engaged, the final straw came.  I'd
    just moved in with Andy, and round to our house she sent a carrier bag
    full of old photos of the two of them together (some fairly intimate),
    all the cards he'd ever sent her, little presents he'd given her etc. 
    I must admit that this did hurt me and I wasn't too keen on him keeping
    them.  Esp as all the cards were from him to her - not often do you see
    the letters etc that your partner wrote to their ex.  This was
    obviously what she'd intended.  He blew his top and she hasn't actually
    contacted us since (so I suppose one good thing came out of it)!
    
    I wouldn't have actually told Andy to get rid of them, but he did
    anyway ... the next day they were gone with the dustmen.  Since then I
    don't particularly want photos of her hanging around - it reminds me of
    a bad time ... know what I mean?
    
    Sam
     

> .16 by D!

>   ... told him he could read
>    it from beginning to end.  He started to and then got bored and
>    stopped; I was terribly hurt!  

The same thing happened to me ... except *I* was the one who
tried to read my journal from beginning to end ... well, I did
make it, but many many many pages were scanned at high speed :)
I've written some very tedious stuff there.  

At least my journal is safe from prying eyes!  They will snooze 
off by page 5.  :) :)       Meigs

    
    While I don't recommend snooping in another's private space, I did 
    meet a lover that way once.  College days, we were living in the same
    boarding house, and were good friends and had keys to each other's
    rooms.  We both kept journals.  M snooped in mine and (eventually) I 
    snooped in M.'s, who was leaving enticing little tidbits in there for
    me to snatch up.  I did. :-)
    
    CQ

    I encourage it.
    
    Kelster