Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    	All you have to do is count the fat grams in the things you
    eat.....Don't eat more than say...10 grams of fat a day.  thats
    an average.  Exercise always helps.
    
    	By counting fat, you can eat lots of things you would think
    you couldn't.
    
    	Like, lite beer is good...no fat.
    	      bread....no fat.
    	      sugar....no fat.
    	      regular pepsi....no fat.
    	      pancakes.....not much fat.
    	      pancake surup.....no fat.
              pasta...no fat
    
    	the list goes on and on....
    
    		things that are bad...
    
    		cheese, candy, milk
    		etc.
    
    	This is how I did it.  I used to be 50 lbs over weight.
    	Now, I'm happy with my weight.
    
    
    	Hal

    
    Call me clueless, but I thought that it was good to cut back on
    carbohydrates!

	Let me second the counting fat thing.  My mother swears by this
	diet that is called the T-Factor diet.  You can get a copy of the
	cookbook for the T-Factor diet in many book stores.  It basically
	teaches the method of counting fat grams.

	My favorite foods either contain cheese or are very spicy.  I
	gave up a bit on the cheese (maybe once a week I'll indulge) and
	I put salsa and Red Hot sauce on alot of the things I eat.  I
	love a salad with mild salsa and a little bit of yoghurt.  	

	What are some of your favorite foods?  Maybe we could suggest
	non-fat (or low-fat) substitutes?  I don't know much about dessert
	substitutes since I don't buy them myself.

	One other tip... avoid eating with people who eat all the things
	you should not eat.  Bring your lunch with you to work and when
	you go to the cafeteria, leave your wallet behind so you don't
	buy anything but just eat what you brought.  If your spouse likes
	icecream and desserts and needs to have them everyday, suggest that
	he have them at work so that they will not be home tempting you.

	Something I read once... if you have too many fat calories in 
	your diet, your body will convert it to body fat.  Carbohydrate
	calories (bread/pasta, simple sugars) are the first that will
	be burned off since it is much easier for your body to convert
	carbohydrates to energy than it is to convert fat.  An excess of
	fat will be stored as body fat.  You do need to have some amount
	of fat in your diet to remain healthy but americans tend to eat
	two or three times the amount of fat that they actually need.

	Good luck with your diet.  Remember, you do not have to starve 
	yourself, just eat non-fat or low-fat and continue to exercise.
	If you diet without exercising, your metabolism will decrease and
	you will burn off fewer calories.  Exercise increases your 
	metabolism, not just when you are exercising, but all day!

	Karen

Go out and get a copy of "Jane Brody's Nutrition Book".  Jane Brody is
food editor for the New York Times (and used to be very heavy herself,
as she explains in the book).  This book is full of well-researched and
sound advice; I can't recommend it highly enough.

    Sharon

    Work out in addition to dieting.
    Visualize the body you wish, visualize yourself being that body, every
    night before you go to sleep.
    Be patient with yourself.
    
    -Jody

    Carbohydrates are the body's preferred fuel.  Cutting them out will
    increase your appetite for sweets.  Get carbs in the form of whole
    grains, fruits and veggies.  Get protein without too much attendant
    fat which means fish, (easy on the shellfish), chicken, (white only, no
    skin), soybean products, and lean cuts of beef, (the cheaper ones
    generally, no porterhouse steaks!), and drink lots and lots and lots of 
    water.  Combine that with a brisk 30 minute walk at *least* every other 
    day and you'll feel better and look better in no time.  It is no more 
    complicated than that.
    
    Sandy

    
    watch Covert Bailey's "Fit or Fat" (I think that's what it's called) -
    it crops up on PBS every now and then (maybe somebody has taped it and
    will let you borrow the tape).  I think he also has a book out.  He
    makes a lot of sense.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Call me "weird", but I think exercising is fun, especially if done
    in the right frame of mind (with friends, vary the activities,
    convenience, etc.)
    
    Join a bike, running, swimming, or walking club, then you'll have
    people to do an activity with.  I know you work in Hudson (you've
    said before?) - Nashoba Valley Pedallers is close by and good for
    beginners too.  Great group of folks, I can recommend them, and
    a couple of womannoters belong too (-:  Mail me for info.
    
    I suggest the above activities because they're aerobic in nature and
    will burn fat the best.  Not as good, but still okay are things like
    tennis, racket sports, golf.  Even nautilus can be done aerobically.
    
    Pick a variety of things to do so you don't get bored.  I vary my
    activity by the season.  I bike after work and on weekends in the
    summer, on weekends in spring/fall, hike on weekends in fall, do
    jazzercise classes spring/summer/fall, and walk sometimes.  Or, you
    can vary the activity by day (swim one day, walk the next, etc.)
    
    See if there are aerobic or jazzercise classes at Hudson.  I take
    jazzercise up here after work at Spitbrook - very convenient.
    

    Yes, good hints from previous: stay away from fat, FAT IS BAD BAD BAD!
    Drink lots of water.  Drink more water.  Once you think you are getting
    enough water, double that.  And then drink more.  If you aren't going
    to the bathroom *constantly*, you aren't drinking enough water.  It
    helps, really.
    
    Carbs: there are two kinds, complex and simple.  Simple -> sugar,
    complex -> starch.  Sugar is easier to digest, and gets absorbed much
    faster, so it is good when you need energy *now*.  BUT when it is gone
    (not very long) it leaves your blood sugar lower than when you started
    and thus makes you hungry/craving more sugar.  If you tend to binge (I
    do) then stay away from simple carbs.  Complex carbs take longer to
    absorb, and so provide a more steady, slower stream of energy.  Sources
    of complex carbs are: bread, corn, rice, potatoes, nuts (watch out for
    the fat, though!), pasta, etc.  Simple carbs: sucrose (table sugar),
    dextrose (corn syrup), fructose (fruit), etc.  "natural" sugars are
    still just as high in sugar.
    
    Be careful - many prepackaged diet foods are high in salt, if that is
    an issue for you.  (Me, i don't care about salt, as long as I drink
    enough water so that I don't gain water weight.  Weird how that works
    but it does.)
    
    I found support groups and talking to other people REALLY REALLY helps
    with the emotional eating stuff.  (Speaking as a compulsive over
    eater.)
    
    D!

    Start at the present - make a chart of everything you eat and drink
    for the next couple weeks. Use columns for days and rows for breakfast,
    snacks, lunch, snacks, dinner, snacks. Write down *everything* -
    how many sugars in that mid-morning coffee, number of strips of
    bacon, and was that regular or diet soda? (And if you lose track
    of how many beers you guzzled last night, double your estimate!)
    
    After a few weeks patterns will emerge - three sugars and real cream
    in your morning coffee will show up like a beacon ;-)/2 And you don't 
    really need butter on those carrots, do you? A little sea salt will
    enhance the flavor just as well, but make sure to drink a glass of
    water everytime you even _think_ of salting your food ;-)
    
    Self-awareness, (and self-consciousness from all that writing!) will 
    probably cause you to cut calories without even trying.

Above all, avoid noticing that when you stand *real* close to the candy machine,
the "heart-healthy" decals they put in front of the one row of marginally 
healthy snacks now line up with the row below, where the M&Ms are.

    Two books that really helped me:
    
    "Fit for Life"
    "Fat is a Feminist Issue"
    
    This is what i do:  *every* morning I do an hour of yoga, I 
    eat only fruit until noon (as much at I want!!! YUM!!) and
    for lunch I have soup and a salad.  After lunch I go for a
    walk for 30 minutes... *every* night I do some kind of aerobics
    and for dinner I have a HUGE salad, a vegetable and a baked
    potato or yam.  If I get hungry during the day I have a few
    nuts, or some celery with nut butter or more fruit.  I drink
    tons of water.
    
    I FEEL GREAT!!  My body looks GREAT!! And my skin looks Great!
    
    I haven't liked myself for years... ah.. since I was nine or so
    %-) and now I do and I *like* it... for me, it's not
    really about losing weight, it's about taking care of myself!
    It's *fun*.
    
    Now I'm all excited again %-).
    
    Good luck and if you need someone to talk to over those rough spots
    please don't hesitate to write okay?  It's really helpful to have
    a good support system!
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    I like the "feel great" and "look great" affirmations...maybe things
    that all people on diets should say to themselves no matter where they
    are in the process.
    
    A friend of mine recently had a personal ceremony to celebrate her
    decision to eat healthily and exercise more without logging every
    calorie and without weighing herself...just her plan to feel better
    through her eating habits (which had included years of eating
    disorders)
    
    "Evil scale! I renounce!  I reject your power!  Evil scale! I scorn
    you!  I renounce you!"
    
    You know something?  It worked!
    
    \D/

Some night last week I caught a few minutes of what I think was a
McNeill-Lehrer (sp.) report about the FDA being upset at the food industry for
misleading labelling.  Basically, when the label says 95% fat-free, that 5% of
fat is PER VOLUME or PER WEIGHT of the food, NOT 5% of the calories per serving
which is what is important for healthy nutrition.

Rule of thumb from a nutritionist interviewed on the show:

        one gram of fat = 9 calories

Multiply the number of grams of fat per serving by 9 calories and you will know
how many calories of the serving are from fat.  Compare that number to the
number of calories per serving and that percentage will be the TRUE percentage
of fat per serving.  Enlightening, huh?

You'd be amazed at the fat content some of these "low-fat" foods.  The FDA has
asked the food industry to take the initiative, but warns that if they don't
begin to shape up and begin to label foods in a way which is easier for
consumers to understand (my words, I don't remember the exact quotes), the FDA
will begin to regulate their labelling, etc. more strictly.

The FDA also is angry about claims of "no cholestorol", etc.  Some of the foods
which are labelled as "no cholesterol" NEVER HAD ANY CHOLESTEROL ANYWAY!  Any
even though olive oil, corn oil, etc. has no cholesterol, they are 100% FAT!
And oils such as cottonseed oil has no cholesterol, but it has saturated fat
which is not particularly good for you.

One other thing (that I remember) that the FDA did not like:

	Coors claiming that Coors Light doesn't "slow you down."
	It contains alcohol which does indeed "slow you down."
	

-Mary Ann

    I like two sayings up at the wall at my NutriSystem office...
    
    "It's not about how much you lose, but about how much you'll gain"
    (picture of a happy, thin person with her family)
    
    and
    
    "It's not about the things you can't have, but all the things you'll be
    able to do"
    (picture of happy, thin person biking and being generally active)
    
    Tips:
    
    Write a list of all the reasons you want to lose weight (eg: easier to
    get dates, fit your clothes better, be able to do more sports, etc,
    etc), and then when it gets hard to keep going, reread the list.
    
    When you cheat (notice the *when*) it doesn't mean the diet is shot. 
    It doesn't even mean that day, or that week is shot.  Nothing is shot. 
    If you cheat, figure out why you did it, and think of a way to avoid
    doing it again, and the FORGET ABOUT IT.  Don't chastise yourself,
    don't feel guilty, don't deprive yourself for the next week.  And don't 
    fall into the pattern of "Oh, I had a chocolate bar, well so much for 
    this week, I'll eat all I want and start over again next week."  I had 
    trouble last week because I had Dim Sum (you cannot imagine a more
    fat and sugar-laden meal!!) Saturday morning, and after that I was
    tempted to just say "Oh well, that's shot."  But I stuck with it, and
    even with the Dim Sum, I still lost almost a pound and a half this
    week!
    
    Drink lots of water.  (Have we said this enough?)
    
    D!

    
    There are also happy, fat people with families, and happy, fat
    people who are active.  Something about the way .15 was worded, 
    D!, implied otherwise, perhaps unintentionally.
    
    Carla
    

    >There are also happy, fat people with families, and happy, fat
    >    people who are active.
    
    Yes, of course.  however, the pictures in the Nutri/System office imply
    otherwise, therefore my rendition of them was supposed to imply
    otherwise.  Diet companies make a ton of money off of perpetuating the
    myth that fat=bad, thin=good, and that you can't be happy till you are
    thin.
    
    I guess I didn't make it clear - the parenthetical remarks were
    supposed to be made with wry sarcasm.  
    
    D!

    'ren,
    
    We talked about this the other day...and food is one of my favorite
    obsessions...so let's do lunch!  We'll form our own support group for
    staying on the right track.  I'm still breastfeeding my son twice a
    day, but when the time comes to shed those last 10 lbs. I know it's
    gonna be hell.
    
    Besides, I've been trying to change my eating habits for years.  I went
    from the extreme of macrobiotics (="brown rice is my life") to the
    fries I'm looking at right now.  My excuse today was that I wanted the
    carbos.  Yeah, right--I wanted the FAT.
    
    My mantra since pregnancy has been "eliminate empty calories".  That
    takes care of everything from sugar (simple carbos) to fats to white-
    bread (refined) foods.  Packaged food has too much salt and too little
    nutrition.  Refined sugar not only has no nutrients but will cause your
    body to use its store of the vits and mins needed to digest the
    stripped-down version.  Foods that have high fat per volume (or, as I
    like to look at it, per nutritional content) slow you down...and you 
    know where they end up on your body.  I'll never forget when I was 24 
    and saw myself from the back in a mirror.  I found those pounds I had 
    put on during the previous year!  The aging process makes it harder and
    harder to keep in shape.
    
    I find it's really hard to eat well while at work unless I'm willing to
    be very organized enough to bring lots of food.  Tobin's just doesn't
    cut it.  You saw the muffin I had the other morning.  Its only
    redeeming quality was the bran.  But the harm of the white flour and 
    sugar far outweighed any bran value.  So I bought some instant oatmeal
    (health food brand--no sugar) and will try to substitute it for the
    morning muffin.  I keep whole grain crackers, rice cakes, fruit, etc.
    in my desk to keep me away from the cafe and machines between meals.  I
    eat a little often but that's an individual thing.  
    
    I read recently that the body uses food more efficiently in the early 
    part of the day.  I tend to eat a heavy, late dinner and have been
    trying to change this. 
    
    I think it's mostly about habits and the willingness to change and 
    being truthful with yourself about what you eat.  About once a year I
    do a two week food diary as was suggested in an earlier note.  I write
    down everything that goes in my mouth, then count calories and vits and
    mins.  That works for me.  It's hard to rationalize fries today when I
    see that I had fried fish two days ago and mayo every day for two weeks
    before that.    
    
    Living with someone who eats anything he wants and doesn't give a fig
    ;-) about nutrition makes it doubly hard.  I find that if I can train 
    myself to eat well during the day then I can keep it up at night and 
    on weekends.  
    
    Nancy

    
    Nancy
    
    I walked down to Shaw's for salad today. If you've got the time and
    energy to do this twice a week, I'd LOVE to have your company.
    
    The other thing, consider meeting me for breakfast. I've got to learn
    to put those morning complex carbohydrates in!
    
    Many Hugs,
    
    'ren

    
    Another vote for Covert Bailey's "Fit or Fat".  He talks at length
    (and with some humor) about the body's mechanisms for dealing with fat 
    and the impact on your body of what you eat and how you exercise.  
    
    Basically he stresses the importance of focusing on the body's
    percentage of fat rather than simply on weight as a measure of fitness.
    
    He recommends regular, moderate aerobic exercise and limiting the
    amount of fats consumed.  It struck me as a sane approach to long-term
    health.

    LJ, I don't know about kidney impairment, I assume those who have it
    now it.
    
    But as for "washing the vitamins out of your body" I've never heard
    this!  Where did you hear it?  Can you give me some references?  how
    much water are we talking about here?
    
    The AMA (I believe it was them) just upped their recommendation from
    82 to 98 ounces of water a day.  That is almost 3/4 of a gallon.  For
    most people I have ever met, you have to work DAMN HARD to get that 
    much water into your system.  Thus my advice of "Drink all you can,
    then double that."  In general when people *think* they are getting
    enough water, they aren't.
    
    D!

    What a great note!!  I've gotten some good advice here.  
    
    It's nice to know that I'm doing somethings correct.  I've gone from
    0 ounces of water to 40+ ounces a day.  It's not easy.  I seem to
    be doing nothing but drinking water.  
    
    Now I know why I don't feel hungry at 10:30 when I've had pancakes
    or oatmeal for breakfast.
    
    Any ideas on some good starting exercises.  I can't bike or do
    high impact aerobics (bad knees and too out of shape).  I've 
    started leg raises and mild situps but want to do more.  I'm too
    overweight right now to do too strenous activities.
    
    Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.
    
    Linda, who NEEDS to shed too many pounds
    

    D! in re L.J.
    
    D!, L.J. is correct that too much water can be dangerous. Not everyone
    with kidney problems is aware of them, and there is a condition
    called 'water intoxication' where the body's ability to balance
    fluids can be impaired by excessive water intake. I'll see if I
    can dig out my reference books.
    
    and about half the vitamins we consume are water soluble. They
    are normally reclaimed by the kidneys during urine production
    during the process of producing concentrated urine. However if
    you are consuming so much water that your body is essentially
    flushing it straight through, then you are going to be losing
    water soluble substances.
    
    Bonnie

    see also:
    
    ASICS::WEIGHT_CONTROL
    
    Womannotes-V2
    171 - dieting
    
    -Jody
    

I heard the tail end of a story on NPR the other day. According to
that, you can indeed drink too much water. I can't remember what
the health effects though. It might have had to do with kidneys. Did
anyone else hear this newstory?

Moderation does seem to be the key, even with water.

Kathy

    RE .23, good starting exercises

    [Required disclaimer: I'm no expert, although I often play one in
     Notes...]

    Things like leg raises and situps qualify as anaerobic exercise,
    can be good for muscle toning, but are of questionable direct
    value for weight loss. Aerobic exercise (which does *not*
    necessarily mean "aerobic classes") are generally prescribed (in
    addition to sensible diet) to help with weight loss.

    Try walking. Comfortable shoes (designed for distance walking -
    not running shoes) really help. One advantage of walking is that
    it's fairly easy to pace yourself and control the amount of
    exertion you're up to. (But since you cite knee problems, re-read
    the disclaimer at the top ... you know better than any of us how
    far you can walk.)

    From my recollection, walking a mile burns (in very round numbers)
    about 100 kCal (aka calories). Running a mile burns maybe 150 kCal, for
    reference. This assumes a fairly brisk walk (3.5-4 mph), but
    illustrates that walking can be very good exercise. The main difference
    compared to running (aside from being easier on the shins) is that it
    takes longer ...

    Of course, anything can be overdone (Monica Seles had to drop out of
    Wimbledon), but walking is a really good way to start.

    Water intoxication, according to my physiology texts is when a 
    person takes in water at a rate greater than the kidneys can
    get rid of it.
    
    Symptoms include, edema (tissue swelling) cramps, confusion,
    convulsions, and coma. The symptoms are largely due to an
    upset in the cellular sodium balance.
    
    Bonnie

    Is this one of those topics where everyone gets to throw in their
    two cents and the person who wrote the original note gets so confused
    they give up entirely?  ;^)
    
    One of the things I haven't heard anyone mention, is that anyone 
    embarking on a weight loss program should probably see a doctor,
    have a thorough checkup to ensure there are no medical problems
    that would interfere with diet or exercise.
    
    If I remember the information correctly, a healthy diet should
    include about 60-70% carbohydrates, 20-30% protein and about 15%
    fat.  The typical American diet is much lower in carbohydrates
    and much higher in protein and fat.  As has been mentioned, dieters
    should, in general, increase consumption of complex carboydrates
    and decrease consumption of protein and fat.  Some people tend
    to go overboard and try to eliminate fat; however, your body does
    need a certain amount of fat to survive.
    
    The key to losing weight is to make your use of calories exceed
    your consumption of calories.  The best way, in my humble opinion,
    to lose weight is to modify your diet to conform to the guidelines
    above, in a way that you can live with on an ongoing basis, without 
    completing giving up everything you love, and to exercise.  The idea
    is to not go on drastic diets and massive exercise binges, and then
    stop when you reach the desired weight, only to gain the weight back.
    There was an article in the globe yesterday that said that recent
    research indicated it might be worse to experience frequent weight
    swings than to simply remain overweight.
    
    Now, I think I'll go home and try to practice what I preach...all
    my favorite foods are high in fat!
    
    cheryl

    Did anyone suggest converting to a vegetarian diet? If you're curious 
    check SAFRON::VEGETARIANISM for all sorts of recipes.
    
    An added bonus: if you eat lower down on the chain you'll probably
    get fewer chemicals and parasites in your food.
    
    Ganesh.
    
    
    P.S. Personally, I don't pay too much attention to what the
    doctors say regarding diet. Consider the medical profession's
    record in promoting for decades those all-important 
    "four food groups". My gut feeling (which I'd rather trust) 
    tells me that a varied diet will do the job nutrition-wise.

With no offense to anyone that has replied here, but does anyone remeber the 
Bloom County strip where Opus want to lose weight? He's going thru all these
fad diets books trying to pick what's best for him. Milo looks at him and says,
"why not just eat less and exercise more?" Needless to say, Opus is horrified
by this suggestion, and is sure he needs to invest money in a book or program
or something....(in fact, as I recall, isn't Opus hitting Milo with a stick in
the last panel and accusing him of heresy?)

My point is this: If you want to lose weight eating sensibly and exersice will
work. If you are not ready to lose the weight, NOTHING will work. Yes, you can 
join a quick weight loss plan (a liquid diet! Yeah, that's the ticket!) but the 
weight will just come right back. 

Take it from someone who has been on every diet on the planet: when you are
in the right frame of mind, you will be sucessful. Like most things in life,
attitude is 99% of the battle. If you have a reason to lose weight, and keep
that in focus, you will do it. 


dee

    Re .31 - YES!  You hit it right on the head....
    
    So, anyone wanting exercise is welcome to come down
    and clean my two horses and their stalls, and then
    tone up their thighs with a 45 min riding lesson! :-)
                                                    
    HRH

    
    Then there's always the "Half-assed Diet"...
    
    Pretty simple actually:
    
    Place a normal portion of your meal on your plate.
    divide that in half, and eat only one of the halfs.
    
    After following this diet (without cheating) you'll lose half you ass. 
    
    
    
    By the way, I read this as a humorous (but actually sucessful, according
    to the author) note, and entered it within the same context.  

    
    re: .32 You serious?  Send mail...

    RE: 4 food groups.
    
    This is strictly relying on my so-so memory about a magazine article.
    
    Supposedly the 4 food groups we all grew up with were designed with
    the dairy/beef growers in mind thanks to the strong lobbyists.  They
    had nothing to do with good nutrition.  
    
    The food and nutrition board (can't remember official name) is redoing
    the "basic 4 food groups" into a pyramid stressing vegetable, grains
    and carbohydrates with meat, dairy, and fats as "optional, not
    necessary" food groups.  
    
    I wish I had the article because I can't remember the levels of the
    pyramid, but do remember is made more sense nutrition-wise.
    
    Linda
    

    
    re: .4  This is covered in detail in the book "Diet for a New America".
    Vegetarian Times (the magazine) also reports on what various "official"
    (= mainstream, conservative, influential) health organizations (e.g., 
    the American Heart Society (or whatever it's called)), recommend.  The
    recommendations have changed quite a bit over the past 'n' years, with
    these organzations recomending (in general) more complex carbos,
    vegetables, fruits, grains, and lessmeat and fat.
    
    CQ 

    "Diet hints for the hopeless"... is MODERATION!!!
    Moderation in in the intake of food, our bodies need a very diverse
    nutrition with plenty of food within the four groups... I don't think
    we should deny a certain type of food because the body needs calories,
    fat, carbohydrates, milk and its derivates for calcium... but the
    "trick" is... the amounts,
    
    Cut the amount of food ingested, you'll see how the scale goes down...
    our body is very wise, if we eat more than we need the surplus is
    stored into the form of fat = we leat less, we store less, and if our
    body needs MORE than what we eat... it takes is from the stored fat,
    so, eating less, and exercising more is the thing to do! 
    (by eating less amounts of food we don't need to "deprive" ourselves of
    certain foods and we don't feel like we are "dieting" just cutting
    down, in itself... that is the best part of it.
    
    Best luck! Ana
    

    
    I'm trying. Lord knows I'm trying. But eating less is very difficult.
    When I eat less something in me says that I want more...
    
    I'm definitely exercising more, though.
    
    Maybe a week is too soon to judge.
    

    re: .35
    
    The food pyramid I've seen is this:
    
                               +---------+
                               |fat/sugar|
                             +-------+-----+ 
                             | dairy | meat| 
                    +--------+-------+-----+---------+
                    |     fruit and vegetables       |
             +------+--------------------------------+------+
             |   complex carbos (grains, legumes, pasta)    |
             +----------------------------------------------+
    
    What I read is that the FDA works closely with dairy and meat lobbying
    groups.  They even share office space or something ... INCREDIBLE
    amounts of food are spent on promoting cookies and milk and meat, in
    comparison to money spent on basic food and nutrition programs.
    
    The FDA had a panel of nutritionists who went out and gathered
    information and created this pyramid.  The FDA was beginning to replace
    the four food groups when suddenly there was a gag order put out and
    it's officially "under consideration."  
    
    
    re: .0  'ren,
    
    I second all the advice I've heard thus far -- emphasize COMPLEX carbos
    (like, eat rice and beans a lot!), de-emphasize foods with lots of fat
    and protein and sugar (meat, most snack foods, candy, etc.), and
    EXERCISE.  
    
    Exercise re-sets your metabolism.  I saw a great program on
    dieting/health and they said that what happens when you go on a quick
    diet is that your cells get smaller ... and your body thinks you are
    STARVING TO DEATH.  So, to prevent your starving to death, it does
    naturally what happens to people in starvation circumstances:  it works
    more effiently with what it gets. Your body knows that between the hare
    and the turtle, slow and steady wins the race (ie, you LIVE).  And you
    pay the price in having less energy, more confusion in your thinking,
    etc., than you would have otherwise.  That's why you get middle-aged
    women who eat only a tiny amount of food ... but don't lose weight. 
    They have trained their bodies to get along with less food.  That's one
    explanation for yo-yo dieting syndrome.  RE-setting your metabolism can
    mean increased enthusiasm, energy, clarity, etc., on the inside, as
    well as looking and feeling better on the outside.  Health as
    WELL-BEING, not only as "not being sick."
    
    I also second exercising with people.  I work in Hudson on Mondays and
    Tuesdays and would be happy to walk with you once a week!  I like to
    get outside on the days I'm here.  Being linked with other people will
    cause you to go out and do it when your own willpower can't do it
    alone.  And it makes it more fun while you're doing it.
    
    The third thing I totally agree with is to DO IT IN MODERATION.  This
    has to do with your attitude.  Like it or not, probably there is some
    way in which being overweight is helpful to you.  Fears that don't need
    to be faced, situations that have an easy explanation, etc.  Or comfort
    and love from food.  Whatever.  You need to know that you WANT to do
    this, be able to VISUALIZE what life can be like, have something that
    you are excited about and striving for and are willing to make
    sacrifices and change your lifestyle for.  The moderation part is that
    if your mind is willing, but your underlying self is resisting, you are
    likely to set huge goals and then be angry at yourself for failing to
    reach them.  Anger against yourself only strengthens the resistance. 
    Set goals and rules for yourself that make sense to you, and be clear
    on WHY you break them when you break them.  Then follow them again.
    
    I used to be reliant on sugar ... every meal ended with dessert in my
    family.  I broke a lifetime dependence on the "rush" from sugar last
    fall, when I decided I would only eat two sweet things a week.  Now I
    eat only one or none.  I am much more in tune with MY natural feeling
    of energy, rather than needing a constant buzz of artificial energy. 
    If it makes sense to you and all of you is behind it, it will happen.
    
    Good luck! Pam

    I'm a fat woman, myself, but I definitely think that a week is too
    soon.  In fact, the scales are an enemy and a saboteur at that. 
    Measure:
    
    	how things fit
    	fitness feel (flexibility, stamina, etc.)
    	body tone
    
    before weight.  An aerobics instructor of my acquaintance (in her
    forties and nothing on her whole body jiggles!) says that once a month
    is the maximum frequency for measuring weight.
    
    Now that I've entered this, I realize that I don't remember: a) who
    wrote that a week may be too soon, b) which note it was, or c) what (if 
    anything) in that note made me think of scales.  So, this is a possibly 
    inappropriate response, but meant well (she said on her way to Gehenna).
    
    aq
                                                                 

    
    
    RE: .37, .38
    
    Actually, eating less will NOT "work" all the time.
    
    Many heavy and non-active people actually can eat virtually NO calories
    and still maintain or gain weight.  The reason for this is that their
    bodies have been inactive for so long that the muscles no longer "know"
    how to burn the stored fats (ie, very low metabolism).
    
    Eating RIGHT as opposed to eating LESS is better for a person.  Adding
    exercise to that regime (to increase the metabolism) is really the only
    sure-fire way to burn the stored fats.
    
    
    kath

    bingo, Kath.
    
    I really think exercise and moderation in eating is the key.
    
    And one week *IS* too soon.  It took me 3 years to lose 50 pounds (and
    I know some people do it faster, and some do it slower)....but think of
    it this way....you didn't GAIN it all in a week, or even half of it, or
    a quarter.  You gained it slowly and the best way to keep it off is
    lose it slowly.
    
    no crash diets, please?
    
    -Jody
    

    	I agree with Jody.
    
    	You need to watch what you eat and change your habits.
    
    	Last year, I lost a pound a week. For some people, that
    	would be too much. For me, at 6' 6'' and 275 pounds, a
    	pound a week was quite manageable.
    
    	After the first couple of weeks, I was habitually eating
    	better and losing a pound a week without really thinking
    	too much about it.
    
    	Too often, we have bad eating habits that are hard to break.
    	Once you consciously break the habit and acquire new habits,
    	it's easier.
    
    	Remember, each of us gains weight slowly over time. That's
    	also the best way to lose it - slowly over time.
    
    	If you lose just 2 pounds a month you're gonna lose 24 pounds
    	in a year. That's probably fast [safe] enough for anyone.
    
    	Scott

    Eating whole grains helps me a lot. I love food. I eat a lot. I can eat
    any number of cookies and still not feel satisfied. I can also eat
    large quantities of white bread. But if I'm eating whole wheat bread i
    feel full and satisfied fairly quickly. I think all that fiber fills me
    up.
    
    manisha

    
    I did not acquire this weight slowly. I acquired it within the last 3
    months. And I intend to get rid of it as soon as permanently possible.
    
    

    suture self.
    
    I still think slow is best.
    
    But if you're looking for a truly crazy diet that will unbalance your
    physical chemistry, put you in ketosis, and work ONCE, but contribute
    absolutely nothing to behavior modification or your eating habits being
    bettered, try Dr. Stillman's Quick Weight Loss diet.  It's protein. 
    And nothing else.  
    
    -Jody

    
    
    
    It's not healthy for a person to lose more than 4-5 lbs a week.  
    
    'Ren, if you've put the weight on in the last 3 months, it should be
    very simple to increase your aerobic workouts to get the weight off.
    Aerobic workouts could include just a 30 minute walk at lunch--enough
    to elevate the heartrate for a continous period of time.  
    
    To maintain weight a person should do aerobic workouts 3 times a week.
    To lose weight a person should do aerobic workouts 5+ times a week.
    
    It is possible to GAIN weight if you place your body into starvation. 
    When the body goes into starvation, it "freaks out" and starts to
    conserve anything and everything it can.  You can't lose weight by
    starving yourself.  Fasting is NOT healthy for you.
    
    The best "diet" is "eating right and exercising."  To change your body
    size, you HAVE to change your eating and exercising HABITS.  People
    that don't are the people who get the Yo-Yo effect:  they lose the
    weight then but it (and more) right back on.  
    
    Muscles burn fat.  In fact, there are enzymes in the muscles that burn
    fat and other enzymes that burn glucose (what is in your bloodstream).
    The fat-burning enzymes are engaged when you elevate your heart rate
    for a long period of time (20+ minutes) but NOT to more than 70% of
    your maximum heart rate.  The glucose-burning enzymes are engaged when
    you elevate your heart rate ABOVE 70% of your maximum heart rate (this
    is also considered to be a cardiovascular workout.....works the heart).
    
    To calculate your maximum heart rate:  220 - age = Maximum heart rate.
    A person should NEVER work out AT their maximum heart rate...it's a
    good way to kill yourself (never go over 85% of the above number).
    
    To burn more fats, you need to utilize the BIG muscles in your body. 
    Those muscles are your legs (quads, hamstrings, gluts, etc).  That's
    why swimming isn't considered to be a good fat-burning sport:  it uses
    mainly the smaller muscles in the upperbody.
    
    Eating right means eating LOW-FAT foods.  A person who wants to lose
    weight should eat no more than 23% of their calories from Fat (less is
    preferable).  
    
    	Low Fat Foods:  Whole grains, most fruits and vegetables, 
    			legumes, chicken, most fish.
    	Hi Fat Foods:  Sauces, butter, ice cream, red meat.
    
    Aerobic workouts do NOT just consist of "doing aerobics."  Most
    aerobics classes get your heartrate up too high to burn the fat anyway.
    Consider alternatives:  walking, skating, biking, rowing.....anything
    that will use your lowerbody muscles and that you can do continuously
    for 20+ minutes WHILE keeping your heartrate at or below 70% of your 
    maximum.  
    
    	For example:  I skate at lunchtime (3-6 miles depending on the 
    	time I have to do it).  I skate at a pace where my heart rate is 
    	at 34 beats in 15 seconds.  220 - 25(my age) = 195(max beats per
    	minute).  195 x .70(70%) = 136.5(per minute).  136.5 / 4 = 34(beats
    	per 15 seconds).
    
    I get an excellent aerobic workout, I'm not tired after it (because
    I didn't wear myself out)...and I'm burning the fats.
    
    I've lost 30 pounds since October of last year.  I want to lose another
    10-15 more.  I feel FANTASTIC, I'm in shape now (I couldn't have skated
    like that in October, I would have died!)  
    
    The only think I ask is that if you WANT to lose weight and become fit,
    PLEASE do it the WISE way!  PLEASE be SMART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I did a lot of research when I decided to lose weight.  While Covert
    Bailey can appear to be rough and abrasive at times, I found him to
    have the most SENSIBLE outlook on how to be fit and healthy.  Check out
    his book "Fit or Fat?" or his other book "Fit or Fat?  For Women" at
    your local bookstore.  The books both cost $5.95....a small investment
    to make to be SMART.
    
    kath

    What I want is the metabolism of a male co-worker here....
    
    He has to eat oreo cookies & milk BEFORE going to bed, or
    he will LOSE weight!!! (Ggggrrrrr.....)     
    
    HRH

    
    I exercise every day for a minimum of 20 minutes, either by walking or
    exerbiking. Its new to me, but my clothes are starting to loosen up, so
    it must be working.
    
    Over the last 3 months, my food intake nearly doubled because I was
    using food that I loved as a panacea... (look it up! :-)  ) going to
    the Royal Mandarin 2-3 days a week, hitting Bertucci's once a week,
    stocking up on junk food and enjoying my typical t-bone steak and
    fettucine alfredo for dinner. (that's gonna be HARD to give up!)
    
    I must admit that it is VERY difficult to stop eating things which I
    love the taste of. Like steak. And fettucine alfredo. And Mrs. Fields
    cookies (3 at a time). But I have already started cutting them out of
    my diet (as in my normal food supply). And I can see that having them
    once a month will be fine. I just need to make a new list of favorite
    foods that has things I love, which happen to be better for me. As an
    advantage, I ate veggies growing up, and I probably won't have a big
    problem learning to eat them as a rule, making my own homemade soups
    with meat flavoring instead of real meat.
    
    After all, how many calories/fat grams could a spoon of Wyler's chicken
    bouillion really have???

    "Fat cells never die!"
    
    That is the despairing cry of a friend of mine.  She put on a lot
    of weight as a child, and is having a very difficult time taking
    it off.  But she is taking it off.  She is an avid gardener, so
    now a lot of her eating is done by `grazing' among her veggies.
    (She is using Weight Watchers, and is going/sharing with friends:
    the Nesfa Reduction Committee.)  Eventually, she'll have a lot of
    flabby, empty fat cells, lots of muscle, and a big smile.
    
    Typical values:
    
    One pound of body weight = 3,500 calories
    One pound of body weight = 3 miles (4.2 klicks) of blood vessels
    
    		*		*		*
    
    My motto is:  Your diet starts in the supermarket.  If you can
    wrestle your basal -- er, baser -- instincts down until you're past
    the checkout counter (and that means every checkout counter, like the
    one in the drugstore behind the candybars) then you have a fighting
    chance.  I figure I've triumphed if the only items I buy that aren't
    on my shopping list are non-food things.  (Yes, I brown bag lunch.)
    
    						Ann B.

    'Ren,
    
    Back in January I switched to a mostly vegetarian food plan.  I am not
    a political vegetarian, I did it purely for health reasons.  My
    maternal grandma, my mother, my grandma's female sibs, have had strokes
    at what I consider early ages.  I looked at how I was eating and my
    dietary intake was full of fats, red meat, too much cheese/dairy and th
    like.
    
    I have cut out fats.  I eat legumes, beans, grains, steamed veggies,
    vegan casseroles and drink a minimum of 1/2 gallon of water a day.  I
    rarely drink anything else as a beverage.  I am losing weight, and that
    wasn't even the intent of changing my food habits.  Oh, and I also take
    blue green algae in capsule form on a daily basis.  The algae provides
    7 of the 8 essential amino acids (proteins) that our bodies need to
    stay healthy, plus it is loaded with beta carotene, B-12 and many, many
    trace minerals.  I have never felt better in my life.
    
    Anyway, one of the things I learned about myself and eating differently
    is that I need to cook and prepare food that I will really enjoy.  I
    can't force myself to eat tofu "just because it's good for me."  I have
    had to learn ways to supplement protein intake by combining
    beans/grains, etc.  One of the things about making soups, and I used to
    love soups made with beef/chicken/turkey stock...is that there are
    other options beyond tossing in a boullion cube (which tend to be very
    high in sodium).  The liquid that you cook black beans, lentils or
    pinto beans in makes a really good base for soup.  Then take all those
    old, wilted veggies that got forgotten in the veggie drawer and cook
    them for a while in the broth.  Then strain out the limp veggies and
    start creating a dynamite soup.  Also, miso (which is fermented soy
    bean) added to soup stock is fabulous...especially if you want to make
    a rich tasting stock for mushroom or onion soup.
    
    Anyone who knew me eating habits prior to this change could attest to
    the marginal nature of the nutrition in my diet!  My idea of a healthy
    meal was a large steak and a baked potato with butter and sour cream.
    It seems weird to say that now I can't even digest red meat, my system
    has changed completely, and I feel that it's for the better.
    
    It sounds like my former patterns are similar to yours.  If you would
    like to talk more about this, you can contact me off-line.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Laura

    RE .34
    
    I have been known to be serious once in awhile! :-)
                                               
    HRH

Re: Kathy Gallup

	Where do you skate at lunch time?  Is this ice-skating?  Reason
	I'm asking is I work in Marlboro and would love to go ice-skating
	somewhere locally!  Please send me mail!

	Karen

    
    If you go up 495 a few exits, and turn onto 111 East, there's Nashoba
    Skating Rink on the right a few miles down...  I've never been there
    but I've driven by it many times.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    There is an ice skating rink on RT. 85 in Marlboro.  I don't know
    about their public skating schedules but you might want to check.
    It is called the John J. Nivens Skating Rink, I believe.
    
    Pam

after all in said, the best advice I have received is:

	1)  see the doctor first and get the following things checked

		a) blood sugar; diabetes must be treated, and it is
		   a "silent" affliction.  If you have it and try to
		   diet, you can get seriously ill.

		b) blood pressure; high blood pressure is also a "silent"
		   affliction.  It may be necessary for you to treat this
		   BEFORE you start exercising.  Once you lose weight, you
		   can probably stop HBP medicine, but your doctor must
		   be aware of this condition FAST.  Failure to treat
		   HBP can lead to heart, kidney, liver failure.

	2)  with your doctor's agreement, pursue a diet like the Pritikin
	    diet...another words, a diet that is VERY low fat, high in
	    complex carbohydrates, and focuses on non-meat sources of
	    energy...with small, infrequent servings of meat allowed if
	    you desire.  This is not a diet, but a life-style change and
	    you need to find something you can live with/on forever.

Finally, with your doctor's support, pursue a mild, regular, pleasurable
exercise regime.  If you hate it, you will stop it.  Find something you
like to do and do it.  regularly.  with friends and/or family if possible.

Oh, and if you just gotta have the chocolate cake, eat it and get on with
life.  Don't build up a list of "denials"...they will kill a long-term
health program faster than anything else.  Once in a while, a chocolate
fix won't kill ya...especially if the rest of the lifestype is healthy.

I empathize...I'm on a repair program, myself. 

    re: .22 (D!)
    
    I didn't forget about you, but I see that Bonnie has answered your
    questions. There are many more dangers besides water intoxication,
    mostly all due to a too high ratio of water to minerals in the blood
    (hypocalcemia - calcium, hypomagnesia - magnesium, hyponatremia -
    sodium, hypokalemia - potassium, etc).
    
    re: the AMA recommending more than 64oz water per day, I don't see
    why they would, unless it was for heavy activity on a hot day. The
    human body loses about 1 liter thruugh urination and a 150lb
    person loses another .8 liters ("insensible" water loss) - Merck
    p958, principles of fluid therapy. That's about 60 oz, and that
    includes water you get in foods like fruits and vegetables (which
    can be a lot if you choose your foods right).
    
                                      L.J.

    Thanks L.J.
    
    I just did a real quick look up, thanks for adding more details.
    
    BJ

    I have to add my two cents to this topic, having lost 12 pounds in the
    past 8 weeks.  ;^)   ;^)  ;^)
    
    1.I started by seeing a doctor to make sure there were no hidden health
    problems.  BTW B.P. was 140 over 90  - NOT GOOD!
    2. I keep a food diary of EVERYTHING I eat.
    3. I eat three meals a day and PLANNED snacks - balanced meals and
    usually fruit or popcorn for snacks. (For the most part I am a vegetarian)
    4.Every item on the grocery list is PLANNED and someone else does the
    shopping.
    5. I started out by walking 20 minutes a day - now I am bicycling 
    at least one-two hours a day AND rowing at least 20 minutes a day AND/OR
    jogging 20 minutes a day (and of course doing alot of stretching).
    
    My blood pressure is now 105 over 65, my resting pulse is 54, I have
    gone down one dress size and feel GREAT!
    I don't starve myself and if I chose to eat more than I should, I 
    compensate by getting some additional exercise.
   
    If I had only dieted, I probably wouldn't have lost much weight.  I
    exercise primarily in the morning and I think that helps to speed up
    my metabolism during the day.
                          

    Subtracting one week three years ago, I've been smokeless for 8 yrs.  I
    have cravings continually, however.  The only thing that keeps me from
    picking up is to remember:
    
    The craving will go away whether or not I pick up a cigarette.
    
    Works just as well for a candy bar, for butter-and-salt-laden popcorn,
    etc.
    
    N

    Re:  Skating rink
    
    It's the Navin rink and unless they have acquired some funding, it
    is not open during the summer.  Only open during ice hockey season
    because it is primarily used to ice hockey practice and games.
    
    Linda
    

Because of the comments in this note I thought it might be a good idea
to get together with a group and discuss nutrition.  Laura Ervin has recently
changed her way of eating and she is willing to share some of the things she
has learned.

In addition some of us would like to discuss the reasons why we eat, how are
eating patterns developed, how we feel when we eat, etc.

The first discussion group could be held at my house on Thursday, July 18th.

I have found that talking, discussing and sharing are very motivating for me,
and I need this badly now!

I do not have any pets, and my house is smoke free.

If you would like to join us send me mail and I will forward directions the 
week before the meeting.

	Joyce, is this to be a "non-PC discussion on eating..." ?

						--D ;-) ;-)

    Cute, --D   ;-)

Ren , I lost 30 pounds at the rate of about a pound a week. It's more likely to
stay off if you lose it slow and realise this is a "lifestyle" and not a diet.
Exercise is vital (I mostly walk) and so is cutting down on FAT. I eat very
little meat and only low fat milk products. Once you stuff down the required
5 or more servings of fruits and vegatables it's hard to feel hungery. Drink at
least 64 ounces of water a day. 

You can make room for small amounts of favorite foods. You don't have to give up
anything forever but you do have to keep it in moderation. liesl

    
    Well, I have just realized that I have a MAJOR conference to attend in
    one month, and unless I lose some INCHES, I'm going to have to buy new
    clothes, because none of my suits or dresses currently fit me.
    
    Needless to say, I REFUSE to buy new clothes at a size 16... I'll
    starve first. And even if it doesn't stay off, if its off for the week
    of the conference in San Jose, I'll be happy.

> Needless to say, I REFUSE to buy new clothes at a size 16... I'll
> starve first. And even if it doesn't stay off, if its off for the week
> of the conference in San Jose, I'll be happy.

'ren, when are you going to be out here? San Jose is only 20 minutes from where
I live. I'd love to get together - send me mail?

By the way - I think 16 is a *fine* size to be! I don't know *what* your problem
is... :-)

	-- Charles

By the way - I think 16 is a *fine* size to be! I don't know *what* your problem
is... :-)
    
    Ha!  This from a man who probably wears, what, a size 28 pant?
    
    Phui!
    
    D!

    
    My philosophy on body weight is that it's there for a reason.
    I don't try to fight it anymore.  I just try to feel good about 
    myself.  When I don't need the extra weight, I'll stop eating 
    the foods that keep it on me.
    
    I'm ever thankful for whoever said "fat feels good in bed."
    
    CQ

> Title:  can't take it too seriously...

>> By the way - I think 16 is a *fine* size to be! I don't know *what* your
>> problem is... :-)
    
> Ha!  This from a man who probably wears, what, a size 28 pant?
    
> Phui!

Diana, I am *deeply* hurt by your thinly veiled accusation! :-) You, of all
people, should know the difference between what you want to go to bed as, and
what you want to go to bed with! But you're right, 16 is a tad light for my
taste, I would prefer someone who wore a size 18.

I had out a book of Renoirs again last night. Ahhhhh... You should look up
his "Diana."

For what it's worth, I wear a 32 waist these days, and weigh 175. I just *look*
skinny. I haven't had a 28 inch waist  for, oh ten years or more. Not since I
weighed 155.

More seriously, I honestly think that feeling good about yourself is the first
step in getting to the weight you want. This is NOT to say that anyone in this
topic doesn't feel good about themselves, or their body image, but rather to
say that it's much easier to change yourself when you already feel good about
your fundamental self. That way you can view changing your weight as a smaller
change, or as an "improvement" rather than fixing a foundation. It's easier to
set yourself up to succeed if you're starting from a positive base, and you
don't feel as badly if things don't work out if you start from a position of
already liking yourself and your body.

There's a book I've recommended before, "Diets Don't Work" that talks about
weight loss and how NOT to go about it. The basic premise is to listen to
yourself, eat what your hungry for when you're hungry, and to teach yourself
to NOT eat when you're not hungry - to stop eating in the middle of a meal if
you're not hungry anymore. Things like that. It's impossible to condense in
just a few lines - check it out. It's based on looking at how healthy thin
people eat, behave, and think. Janice was reading things out of it to me, and
kept saying "is this really how you think?" (She also thinks I'm thin.) Almost
every question elicited a puzzled "Of course! Doesn't everyone?" in reply.

	-- Charles

    Good note Charles! :-)
    
>I had out a book of Renoirs again last night. Ahhhhh... You should look up
>his "Diana."
    
    And also Reubens...that man had good taste! I've identified as
    "Reubenesque" for quite some time now :-) 
    Looking back over historical ideas of the "ideal" body type/shape/weight 
    it's amazing to see how we've all been pushed into various silly
    (if not downright life-threatening) behaviours for the sake of
    "fashion"....
    
    I'm still surprised by how good it feels to see something, anything
    celebrating the physical beauty of women over size 10. Each pleasurable
    shock reminds me how *rare* it is....
    
    >it's much easier to change yourself when you already feel good about
>your fundamental self. That way you can view changing your weight as a smaller
>change, or as an "improvement" rather than fixing a foundation
    
    Absolutely.                  
    If, indeed, you *choose* to change at all. 
    
    'gail                                      
    

    I second the motion for "diets don't work", by Bob Schwartz, ISBN
    0-942540-02-6.
    
    re: .70
    
> I haven't had a 28 inch waist........ Not since I
>weighed 155.

    me neither ;)!
    
>More seriously, I honestly think that feeling good about yourself is the first
>step in getting to the weight you want. This is NOT to say that anyone in this

    This is so importnat.  One key is to realize I alredy had ATTAINED
    thinness, and that I ws growing more towards my ideal self every day. 
    Visualization helped a great deal.
    
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    Another vote for Covert's "Fit or Fat" !!!  To summarize in 25 words or
    less:  MODERATE aerobic exercise several times a week, limit the caloric
    percentage of fat to no more than 30%, and have patience.
    
    It works!   And you feel mentally fit as well as physically fit.    
    
    For re-inforcement, you might try checking around with local health
    clubs for "wellness programs", multi week programs that work to change
    behaviors and habits as well as educate you. 
    
    
    
    Jamd  (who has tried all of the following diets:
    	Scarsdale
    	Grapefruit
    	Carrot
    	Hi protein/Lo carb (really a mistake!)
    	Macrobiotics
    	Potato
    	Skier's
    	Slimfast
    	Egg 
    
    	and is now quite content with a reasonably fit, reasonably slim,
    	genetically appropriate body form)

    re:  "fat feels good in bed"
    
    Michael Ventura said that!  8-).  One of my favorite writers.
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    Hey, Charles, I wish there were more men around like yourself.  I'm
    another reubenesque female.  I have been told by one or two men that
    I have a nice body, but I would like to have less of me.
    
    You made my day  :-)
    
    Linda
    

    Charles,
    
    I also wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your note and I
    also wish that there were more men in the world like you.
    
    Lori
    
    P.S. Are you attached? :-)

> I also wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your note and I
> also wish that there were more men in the world like you.

You people are embarassing me. :-)
    

> P.S. Are you attached?

Yes, very much so - to a woman who *I* thinks looks very much like Renoir's
"Odalisque." But... oh never mind. There's just no way to talk about it without
creating misimpressions, so I'll just leave it at that.

    I'll bet there are a lot more people like Charles. And there
    are also lots of people like me, who love any body that has
    a beautiful, or even fairly attractive, soul attached. I think
    this is what the fairy tale Beauty and the Beast is about.
    The body becomes beautiful when you love the soul. I am not being
    pious here. This is strictly from my own experience.
    
    Eileen

    
    "when I eat less, something in me says I want more..."
    
    Your body is a wonderful mechanism designed to maintain a ststus quo. 
    IF your body's default setting have adopted the weight you're at as the
    "right" weight, diets will be very frustrating and usually fruitless.
    
    Resetting the "setpoint" for weight is done through aerobic exercise. 
    Not hard exercise, just getting your pulse rate up around 120-135
    beats per minute. And, you need to be using your large muscle groups
    (read "legs") in a rythymic exercise.  Walking, stationary bike,
    swimming (Do you have a place that does Hydrobics?  great fore people
    with bad knees or backs)
    
    And do have patience. Enjoy the process of seeing a differnt 'you'
    emerge.
    
    Jamd

    Hi, I really want to go back to the noter who said drink at least 64 oz
    of water a day.  How do you get out of the bathroom enough to get into
    bed with someone?
    
    I think I would loose weight just from the exercise of zipping and
    pulling and tugging my panty hose 25 times a day.  How can you plan on
    going anywhere that doesn't have a potty within a 30 second dash?  
    
    I go for a ride in the car with my husband and he says, "want a soda?"  
    I say, "no it will just make me pee and I have no idea when I'll be home".
    
    I'm willing to try it but my God I'd have to stay in my office all day
    long as I am closest to the bathroom here.  Seriously, does this
    improve with age or something?  I mean I'm 45 and cross my legs when I
    sneeze now!
    
    Ferne
    

    re: .80
    
    Hehehehe!  I love it!
    
    Lori B.

    actually you could have a problem with the muscles of your pelvic
    floor, you might ask your doctor to explain the Kugel (sp) exercises
    to you, it helps you control those muscles better.
    
    Bonnie

    Isn't that peee - hold  -  peee -  hold?  Sure I know all about them
    but 64 ozunces of water - pee - hold  -  pee - hold, etc.  they could
    send me to the combat zone after a month of that.
    
    

    sounds dangerously close to eating disorder behavior if you want my
    opinion
    
    \D/

    re. 84    what are you referring to...the H2O or the keigle?
    
    Pam

    Hi, I really want to go back to the noter who said drink at least 64 oz
    of water a day.  How do you get out of the bathroom enough to get into
    bed with someone?

Ah! Well maybe *that's* my problem!  :-)  I knew there was a reason I wasn't
getting into bed with anyone.  That's it - can the water! :-)

No, really, I do go to the bathroom a lot now that I am consuming lots more
water.  And yes, I do have to time it so that I don't end up having to go
while I am far from a bathroom.  I usually drink most of it at work - 4 glasses
between breakfast and lunch, four between lunch and when I go home.  Then in
the evening, when I might be wanting to do things like watch movies or
(*gasp*) get into bed with someone, I can - the remaining two glasses I
generally drink at dinner time, no problem.

>Seriously, does this improve with age or something? 

I hope so - I'm 23.

D!

re: last few

actually, 64 oz. sounds like a great deal more than 8 8 ounce glasses of
water over the day....how do I do it?  Well, in my case, that means I
DON'T drink much of anything else except my two glasses of skim milk a
day.  I also do my level best to get at least 6 glasses of water through
the system BEFORE 8:00 in the evening.  That leaves just one BIG glass
of water to finish before bed.

But then, I do have nights when I'm a little late drinking the majority
of the water....and I even irritate my cat with getting up and dancing
down the hall to the bathroom so many times a night....she finally gets
up and sleeps on the floor so she can get some sleep.

Side benefits:  complexion is looking better every day, everything is
nice and "regular" (if you know what I mean), and I've managed to get
off caffine (except for 1 diet coke in the morning).

Well congratulations!!!  Hope things continue to go well for you...ws that
just the water, or diet, etc?

D!

    I have found that if I include lots of high water content
    foods in my "diet", I do not need to drink as much water.
    That means I eat primarily fruit and veggies and salads!  
    I still drink at least 40 oz of water a day though.
    
    I have to be sure and drink all my water before 2:00pm
    or else I get caught on the bus and no bathroom in
    sight %-(.
    
    yikes!
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

RE: .88

I'm pretty sure the diet helps...but the water consumption is the strongest
influence.  My skin LOVES water...and I fell much better without caffine...
that means I'm now almost totally CLEAN - no booze, no cigarettes (3 years),
and minimal caffine.  I cannot brag about the booze much, though, as I just
never liked it that much anyway...it was an easy "give up"...I just had
to make my friends comfortable with my NOT drinking during social gatherings.

Key: I found that I could only drink that much water when I started
carrying around an insulated jug full of water and ice...I also use bottled
water.  My system just refuses to drink tap water - maybe telling me something?
I keep the jug under the desk and drink water all day.

Now...if I can just keep my chocoholic tendencies at bay, I may have a chance..
(she says as she nibbles on an organically grown grape - not a substitute by
any means).

    
>Now...if I can just keep my chocoholic tendencies at bay, I may have a chance..
    
    It is possible!  I never would have thunk it, but I am currently at 49
    days without proper chocolate (by proper I mean chocolate candy - I
    have had chocolate flavored things like chocolate pudding, but not
    *chocolate*) - a new record for me!  (i once achieved about 4 weeks,
    other than that I have never managed more than a couple days.)
    
    I suppose the question for most people is - why would you *want* to not
    eat chocolate! :-) :-)
    
    D!, recovering *serious* chocoholic
    
    [I never believe people who claim they are chocoholics and also claim
    they will eat nothing but <insert expensive imported chocolate here,
    such as Lindt, Godiva, etc> - real chocoholics such as myself *love*
    expensive imported chocolates, but when they aren't available (such as
    when we can't afford them) are quite happy to settle for Hershey bars
    and M&M's. :-) I got in big trouble once for saying this in the
    CHOCOHOLIC notesfile, where people take great pride in being the most
    chocoholic. :-) ]

    I'm the noter who said I drink 1/2 gal. of water a day.  Well, it is
    the same as 8 - 8oz. glasses of water a day, but I think it sounds far
    more impressive...like I've really done *something* when I drink 1/2
    gal. of water a day! ;-)  
    
    When I first started increasing my water intake, I did spend a bit more
    time in the bathroom, but my system seems to have adjusted to it now. 
    And I'm the kind of person who tends to hit the bathroom frequently,
    even before I started increasing my water intake.  I generally drink 16
    oz. of water with breakfast, plus one large cup of coffee.  
    
    Then I drink another 32 oz. of water starting with lunch and continuing
    until about 2 in the afternoon.  Then I drink another 16 oz. of water
    in the evening.  I used to get up to pee during the night once when I
    first started this.  Now I sleep through the night most nights.
    
    And sometimes I'll have a glass of 1% milk in the evening when I get
    home from class, but I really don't drink anything else but water.  If
    I'm at a party I'll often just drink carbonated water with a slice of
    lime.
    
    I am finding that my system is thriving on this regime.  Now, I was
    never much of a soda/juice drinker to begin with, so I don't feel that
    I've "given" up things.  I did, however, used to drink a large amount
    of milk...sometimes 3 and 4 8 oz. glasses a day.  When I first switched
    to the water, I did miss the high volume of milk intake...but I don't
    anymore.
    
    When I first stopped eating red meat, I missed it.  Now when I try to
    eat it I can't even digest it!  I guess the measure for me is that I
    *feel* better than I have in a very long time.  If what I was doing
    didn't help me to feel better, I wouldn't be doing it.  
    
    I think the key is to really tune into yourself and find out what works
    and what doesn't work.  Like I said in my earlier note...I'm not
    particularly found of tofu.  I have found a very few ways in which I
    can eat it and actually enjoy it (although it is a bit a intense on my
    intestines, sort of what beans do to other folks), so I work around it
    in order to get my protein needs met.  Chick peas, for instance, are a
    great source of protein.  And if you make a batch of hummus and make it
    on thick side, you can use it as a spread (not unlike peanut butter)
    and make sandwiches from it on some yummy whole grain bread.
    
    Be adventursome.  Try things.  If it don't work.  Try something else. 
    But give anything you try a couple of months to see how your system
    reacts to it.  The changes I have experienced didn't happen overnight. 
    After years of a high-fat food intake, I really feel that it took a
    couple of months for my system to detox itself.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Laura

Another thing I forgot to mention - after about 4 months on my low fat and low
cholesterol diet - my migraine headaches STOPPED! I had been on medication for
4 years and they just stopped. I don't know what food in particular may have 
been the problem, but whatever it was, I don't miss it or the migraines! liesl

    
    Ok, I feel like I can contribute here!  :-)
    
    As of Tuesday? Wed.? I've lost 43 lbs since the first of January.  
    Granted, some of that came as a result of "trauma" (break up and
    change of job at the same time), but the rest of it has been the 
    dilligent effort that I've put into it.
    
    I've cut down on lots of fats as others have suggested (I used to
    *love* chips and dip!) also have cut down on red meat.  I haven't
    eliminated it entirely, but have it once every two to three weeks.
    I got to the point a few weeks ago where I picked up a roast beef
    grinder on the way to work cause I didn't have time to make anything.
    I got about halfway through it and almost gagged on the next bite!
    I just *couldn't* eat anymore--my body wouldn't *let* me!!
    
    I bring in a quart container with ice water and usually have that 
    gone by lunch time, in which case I fill it up again.  I average
    between 2-3 quarts of water a day along with 1-2 glasses of iced
    tea (home made from bags and limited sugar addded).  I eat lots 
    more fruit and veggies (got three tomatoes *almost* ripe!!!) and
    lots more grains.  I have been working out here at work (we have a
    gym here on the premises), but with the change in shift I've found
    it more difficult.  I am now playing softball again (see pn!) which
    let's me know at least twice a week *just* how old I am!!  But at 
    this time last year I wouldn't even have *thought* about playing!
    
    I still feel like I need to lose about 20-25 more lbs as well as toning
    up more, but that will come with time.  I also used to have problems
    with frequent urination but with the weight loss about 95% of that has
    gone away.  Some of that due to better muscle tone also.  I do walk 
    about 2-3 times a week, I should do more but with my crazy schedule
    I'm lucky if I get enough sleep--never mind exercise!!
    
    Well, enough rambling.  Good luck to all of you who are losing.
    
    Debbi

        How did the discussion group go?
        
        Dan

    Well there Laura and I talked up a storm...I have decided to throw away 
    my book that described the McDougall plan.  Having talked to liesl and
    Laura I have decided to eliminate as much fat from my diet as possible. 
    And then I am going to add more legumes.  I am also going to try blue
    green algae.  Talking to a lot of people about nutrition, reading and 
    observing I see some common threads.  It is my personal goal to explore
    nutrition and discover what works for me.  I want to feel good and be
    healthy.  I think that a proper weight will just happen if I achieve
    those two goals.
    
    We plan to meet again on August 22nd.  If anyone is interested send mail 
    to myself or Laura.
    
    P.S.  I also know where you can purchase Deal-A-Meal for a reasonable
    cost for those of you that want a tool for limiting their consumption
    of food.  Send me mail for details.  

    re: .84
    
    \D/,
    
    I too was wondering what your comment referred to.  I waited a while to
    respond to your note to see if you were going to clarify your comment
    re: sounds close to eating disorder behavior. 
    
    Go ask any health practitioner, traditional or 'non' traditional about
    the merits of drinking 8 - 8 oz glasses of water a day.  
    
    I pose some questions to you, and to any one else in the noter
    community who feels that 8 - 8 oz. glasses of water seems like too
    much fluid intake or something that is unhealthy.
    
    1. How many ounces of coffee or tea (hot or iced) do you drink per day?
    
    2. How many ounces of sugar or diet soda do you drink per day?
    
    3. How many ounces of milk do you drink per day?
    
    4. How many ounces of apple juice, OJ or similar beverage do you 
       drink per day?
    
    5. How many ounces of alcohol do you drink per day?
    
    6. How many ounces of any other beverage that I haven't managed to
       put on this list do you drink per day?
    
    7. How many ounces of water do you drink per day?
    
    Now, total up the number of ounces of fluids that you consume each day.
    
    When you look at the big picture, I would bet that an individual's
    total fluid intake per day comes out to 64 oz. or more.  Doesn't seem
    to me to be out of line.
    
    Laura

    I have to agree with Joyce.  Our discussion was about the quest for
    health via reasonable food intake and doing it in a way that works on a
    daily basis.
    
    As I said in one of my earlier notes, I'm much more interested in not
    having a stoke in my 40s or 50s.  The bottom line for me is that since
    I've changed my food-type intake, I feel great.  If I didn't feel a
    difference I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
    
    As Joyce said, we're planning to meet again on August 22.  The meeting
    will be held at my house (ah, do I sense some heads turning...perhaps
    some new interest being peeked?).
    
    Tentative agenda...
    
    6 p.m. - 7 p.m.  Exercise (i.e. get a raft and float in the lake for a
                     while to cool off).
    
    7 p.m. - 9 p.m.  Dinner and discussion 
                     I will make a main dish, we can figure out what else
                     people might want to make/contribute.
    
    9 p.m. til....   More lake and/or hot tub
    
    So, whaddaya think about the agenda? ;-) 
    
    Laura
    

    re:97
    
    In the last two weeks, I have followed some of the hints given in
    this topic.  Cut out fats, don't eat after 6:00 PM, drink LOTS of
    water (subsequently gave up the Diet Soda's)...in those two weeks,
    I lost 5 lbs.  Something is working right.  Thanks everyone.
    
    Pam

    
    
    Pam, Congrats!   That's GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;-)
    
    
    RE: general discussion
    
    Another thing that I might mention is that alcohol INHIBITS the body's
    ability to process stored fats efficiently.  When you drink an alcholic
    beverage, it can be 3-5 DAYS before you body is capable of processing
    the fats efficiently again.  It's not just the calories in alcohol.
    
    Also sodas contain a lot of sodium.....which is a dehydrant.  Alcohol
    is also a dehydrant.
    
    
    RE: My progress
    
    In 2 short words, "it sux."  I've been sick for the last couple months
    with some sort of viral infection that comes and goes (similar to 
    mono) and it's really made me lax in working out and lax in my eating
    habits.  For some reason I pick up a candy bar and eat it, even though
    ALL the time I'm telling myself that I don't want it.....I don't even
    ENJOY it.  GGGGrrr......
    
    I think my problem  is that my body is getting thin and looking nice
    and my insecurities about myself are revolting because I no longer have
    that layer of fat to hide behind...  <Deep sigh>...and I missed the
    support get together. ;-(
    
    kath

    >> Another thing that I might mention is that alcohol INHIBITS the body's
    >> ability to process stored fats efficiently.  When you drink an alcholic
    >> beverage, it can be 3-5 DAYS before you body is capable of processing
    >> the fats efficiently again.  It's not just the calories in alcohol.
    
    Hi Kath,
    
    I'm interested in finding out more about this.  Do you have more 
    information or a reference?
    
    Thanks,
    Dale

    That's a new one on me, too. Maybe something to do with vitamin
    depletion?
    

    Memory test from Bio-101.

    The liver is the main organ in the processing of certain nutrients.
    alchohol looks like one of them (sugars) but produces toxic waste
    products and no energy.  My memeory says the liver is needed to 
    further process the waste materials so they can be elimated by the
    kidneys.  While the liver is working on that it is not processing
    fats (If I remember the liver does fats to glycogen).  The biggest
    difference is the processing of fats releases minerals and other
    nutrients. Alcohol on the other hand requires minerals and energy
    from the body in the process.

    I may be off a little.    

    Allison

    
    re .100 sodium being a dehydrant
    
    I've always heard just the opposite - that salt makes you retain
    water.  Can someone knowledgeable in the bio-stuff (like BonnieR)
    confirm this for me?
    

    Sodium by and of itself does make you retain water.
    
    There may well be compounds in soda that have the reverse effect
    and cause you to dehydrate.
    
    Alcohol is a major dehydrant.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .100
    
    
    >>In 2 short words, "it sux."  I've been sick for the last couple months
    >>with some sort of viral infection that comes and goes (similar to 
    >>mono) and it's really made me lax in working out and lax in my eating
    >>habits.
    
    Kath,
    
    I'd like to talk to you about blue green algae.  But it would be more
    appropriate to talk about it off-line.  If you're interested, send me
    mail.
    
    Laura
    

    
    
    
    I just thought I would write something in here about my predicament:
    
    For the last 3+ weeks I've been unable to eat any solid foods.  Every
    time I eat them I get excruciating pain in my upper abdomen, on the
    right side.
    
    About an hour ago, after getting an ultrasound this morning, I was
    diagnosed as having two very large gall stones, one blocking the duct
    and the other floating free.  
    
    A large majority of gall stone cases are in women in their 20s/30s. 
    Especially in women who have drastically changed their eating habits to
    a low or no-fat diet.
    
    The majority of these cases are women who are on the NutriSystem and
    Jenny Craig diets (and diets that are like those).
    
    
    I've you're dieting to lose weight, BE CAREFUL.  I do not wish this
    excruciating pain on ANYONE.  Do NOT go on a No-Fat diet, your body
    needs some level of fat to work effectively.  And don't lose weight
    rapidly: 2-3 pounds a week is more than enough.
    
    I'm still trying to figure out the ramifications of this (either
    treatment with medicine or surgery).....but I just want to tell women
    out there to be careful.  I thought I WAS being careful, obviously not
    enough.
    
    I've never had a child, but a friend of my mother said that gall
    bladder pain is 10 times worse than the pain of childbirth.  I believe
    it...
    
    Be careful, eh?
    
    kathy

   I have watched this Topic with great interest.

   In May of 1991 I went on a rather interesting diet. It was a diet intended
originally to eliminate the rather large amount of fat that my body carries
around. It was at first a diet which required a great deal of discipline to
stick to (a diet which I wouldn't recommend to anyone), but after a time
I made changes and adaptations so that it is now a diet which (I think) anyone
can stick to.

   At the time of the start of the diet, I was grossly overweight. I am a
diabetic; those in this community who are diabetics or who have people
close to them who are diabetics will understand when I say that my average
blood glucose levels were in the upper 180s, despite taking almost 50 units
twice every day. My cholesterol level was in the lower 360s; my doctor was
giving me this nasty tasting powder to eat every day and was threatening to
put me on stronger medication. Of course, in order to make me aware of the
consequences of high cholesterol, my doctor first enumerated for me all the
problems I could have with high cholesterol (strokes, heart attacks, etc) and
the problems associated with uncontrolled diabetes (strokes, heart attacks,
etc), and all the nice side effects of the cholesterol medications he was
thinking of putting me on.

   In short, I needed to get my act together somehow or I was royally screwed.

   This was in May. As of today, I have lost 30.5 pounds, and I expect to lose
at least 4 more pounds by the end of next week. My average blood glucose level 
(for those who know diabetes) is somewhere between 90 and 120 mg/dl. As of 
July 24 my cholesterol level was around 214, with a high percentage of HDL
(good) cholesterol. Indications are that my cholesterol level will continue to 
go down.

   For those who know diabetes: My insulin intake has been cut in half. In
fact, I fell asleep early Wednesday night and forgot to take my nightly
insulin. I woke up the next morning with diabetic symptoms (wierd hunger,
sweatiness, etc), and out of curiosity I did keytone and blood glucose tests.
I expected to have high blood sugar. Imagine my surprise when I discovered
that my diabetic symptoms were caused by LOW blood sugar.

   All this is the result of a diet which I created. This diet is incredibly
safe, does not leave you hungry, gives your body all that it needs, yet lets
you lose weight at a reasonably rapid rate. I have given the details of this
diet to my doctor -- who is a diabetes specialist at the Joslin Clinic. He
did a complete (and at the Joslin Clinic, complete means COMPLETE) physical
on me and has pronounced me completely healthy. He has also given his complete
approval of the method I have used.

   The method, of course, is incredibly flexible (all things I do are flexible),
and is evolving. I am unsure, but I believe that it can be adapted to different
lifestyles, and I suspect that a some or all of its principles can be used
effectively by anyone.

   If anyone is interested, I will share this diet with them.

                                                         -Robert Brown III

    
    Did you want to share it here?  I'd like to know what your diet is and
    I'm sure others are interested as well.  
    
    Congratulations on getting your act together!  It's so much harder to
    actually _do_ the thing you know is right than to just know that it's
    the right thing to do (if you know what I mean; that seems a little
    convoluted).  You didn't say, but do you feel better as well?
    
    CQ

    Yes please, tell us your diet, I'd love to report a success story too!
    
    Brenda

Kath, the standard maximum for gall bladder is Fair, Fat and Forty. Even in the
days before liquid diets, though they can really bring it on. 

If you have to have surgery, look into the new lazer techniques. They have 
people out of the hosptial in 3 days instead of 6 weeks! And barely leave a
scar. They've started doing them here in CS and the results are amazing. liesl

    re -1
    
    My doctor summed up those prone to gall bladder problems as
    meeting the 4F criteria---Female, Forty, Fat and Flatulent!
    (Really didn't cheer me up at the time, either.)
    
    -jer

    
    
    >Female, Forty, Fat and Flatulent!
    
    Well, I'm female, 26, 10 lbs overweight (and never "fat"), and only
    burp/fart a lot to amuse my friends. ;-)
    
    
    kat

Referencing Entries 893.109 and 893.110 (CQ and Brenda):

   I am working on a reply that will begin an explanation of the diet. 
Depending on time and interest factors, I should be entering something in 
this Notesfile soon.

   However, for now a brief overview is in order:

   The diet I developed actually took two forms: (1) the "Robert Brown 
Desperation Diet", and (2) the "Robert Brown Make- It- Up- As- You- Go- 
Along" diet. Both diets are incredibly effective, though diet (1) is 
somewhat more stringent than diet (2).

   Note please that the term "diet" is somewhat of a misnomer. What I have 
developed is actually a set of "principles of eating" which were originally 
designed to enable me to be able to take in the amount of protein, vitamins 
and minerals required while reducing the number of calories that the usual 
protein and vitamin sources have. I am using the term "diet" only because I 
wish to use terms familiar to the reader; in this entry any further entries 
I may make on this subject the reader should keep this in mind.

   What makes the diet effective (and safe) is the incredibly efficient sources
of protein I use which, when taken in moderation, do not include the kinds of 
excess fat and calories that contribute to weight gain. And because the foods 
I now eat tend to be low in sugar, fats, and cholesterol (not only cholesterol 
itself but the things which the body uses to make LDL cholesterol), then an 
added "bonus" of the diet is that the diabetic gains more control over hir 
diabetes, and cholesterol, if high, becomes more normalized and of the right 
composition.

   Because this diet had to be safe for diabetics, it incorporates 
principles that apply to non- diabetics as well. It is safe and effective 
for diabetics; it should also be for non- diabetics.

   To adhere to this diet, the foods one eats must have the following 
composition:

1: High amounts of fiber
2: High amounts of complex carbohydrates
3: Moderate amounts of protein
4. "Reasonable" amounts of natural sugars
5. A small amount of fat
6. The "right" amount of vitamins and minerals

   The high fiber and complex carbohydrates contribute bulk; this helps 
satisfy hunger, make one feel pleasently and naturally "full", and reduce 
cholesterol. The complex carbohydrates also work with the protein and the 
natural sugars to control the body's hunger, fat- control, and muscle- 
retaining mechanisms (in short, they control appetite while encouraging the 
body to build muscle not fat). The small amount of fat is required by the 
body, and the need for vitamins and minerals should be obvious.

   Some amount of aerobic exercise is required (yes, I can hear the groans, 
but believe me: the requirements are minimal, relatively painless, and easy 
to get used to). The exercise, in combination with the protein, 
carbohydrates, and vitamins stimulates the metabolism and helps muscle 
development. The effect is that the dieter avoids the loose skin and 
flabbiness associated with a large loss of weight.

   This is the basic overview; I do not have time to say much more. If 
there is sufficient interest, I will give more details in another entry.

                                               -Robert Brown III

    
    I'm still interested. :-)  
    
    CQ

    Gee, the principles sound like just about every reasonable eating plan
    out there.
    
    D!

    Re .116 -
    
    Well, WW and Diet Workshop, and the 100 others are fine,
    if you are ready to commit yourself to going for the
    rest of your life!!!!   They work only on 25% of the
    people who join, and out of that 25%, few are able to
    maintain the weight loss, and most gain the weight back
    and more besides......Boredom, time, etc. are factors
    for these clinics, what I mean is, the food gets very
    boring, same thing day in, day out, and the time alotted
    to going to the meetings gets to be a hardship rather than
    a necessity. 
    
    HRH
    

    Umm.....WW is *not* the same food day in and day out.  You are not only
    not required to eat their food, most leaders suggest that you *not* eat
    their food (or not only their food, anyway) because if you do, you do
    not learn how to change your eating habits.
    
    One 1 hour meeting a week -- or 1 a month if you are a life member --
    is really not much of a hardship.
    
    E Grace

    I agree with E Grace.  The only way ANY program will work if a person
    is WILLING to work it.  It takes time to learn to eat differently than
    we were used to eating.  It takes time to prepare the proper foods
    too.  
    
    The reason so many people gain back all plus is because they don't
    change their eating habits.  They go right back to eating the way they
    used to or eating the foods they love all the time instead of following
    a maintenance plan which would allow those foods perhaps once a week
    or in moderation.
    
    WW and DW are wonderful programs because of the variety of foods they
    offer.  What they don't offer is all the "JUNK" food we Americans live
    on!  DW even offers regular pizza, Burger King food and Angel food
    cake as well as frozen yogut and dairy queen while you are loosing!
    Again the secret is the WILLINGNESS to do any program.  AND the
    willingness to know that in order to maintain you need to eat like
    this the rest of your life.  
    
    3500 cal = 1 lb.  If a person weighs 120 they should be eating about
    1200 cal per day.  Over that they begin to gain (More active people can
    eat about 1400 and maintain).  So if you are maintaining at 180 today
    and want to weigh 120, you cannot continue eating 1800/2100 cal per
    day and expect to weigh 120!  Sounds simple but it's hard work and
    discipline to control our weight if we've been always having a problem.
    

    Re l-
    
    That's the key, learning to *change your eatng habits*.
    
    But, you don't learn that from WW, or DW, etc.  Or, at least
    those of us who had it here in the plant didn't.  We didn't
    eat their food, but the limited menu did get boring, along
    with the cost of the classes to extend for another eight weeks...
    Maybe eight weeks wasn't enough to change our habits, I guess....
    
    HRH

        But, you don't learn that from WW, or DW, etc.
    
    WW gives you the tools to make the right diet choice.  It's up to you
    to *use* the tools given to you.
    
    No program, Robert's or Weight Watchers or Diet Workshop or Nutrisystem
    or any other, is going to do your footwork for you.  The good program
    (DW and WW and the like) will teach you about food, about how to eat,
    about how to cook healthily, etc.  But you can't be passive about it -
    you can't go in there, follow their rules and suddenly expect that you
    will be a different person when you leave.  You have to take an active
    role - learn from what they teach, understand the reasoning behind the
    rules, and learn to make it a *life* program.
    
    Remember that WW and similar programs are trying to teach you how to
    eat for *life*.  That's why they don't let you refer to it as a diet,
    because a diet is a temporary thing, that you quit when you lose
    weight.  The idea of WW and similar programs is that they let you eat
    anything, but in the moderation that you have to use *forever* if you
    are prone to gaining weight.
    
    If people go back to their old eating habits after WW, it isn't the
    fault of WW, any more than it is the fault of Sears if you buy their
    tools to build a house and then the house falls down.
    
    D!

    98% of all diets and diet programs fail (in the sense that any weight
    lost is regained within 2 years.)  
    
    The fault is not with the diet programs themselves, because they do
    well what they are intended to do: teach you how to eat in a way that
    will help you lose or maintain weight.  That's *all* they do.
    
    Robert's program will do no better.  I used to go from one diet to
    another, each time trying a different one, thinking that the problem
    was with the diet, and that if the diet were "right" that I would lose
    the weight and it would stay off.  Needless to say, time and time again
    I gained it back.  
    
    The problem was that I kept waiting for the diet to change *me*, and it
    can't do that.  Diets are only as successful as the people using them.
    
    A depressing reality.  There is *no* quick fix.
    
    D!

    While I'm here, just thought I would warn any of our international
    noters off of the "miracle weight loss pill."
    
    I read an article recently where there was a pill being used in France
    for weight-loss.  Take 1 pill, 1 time...eat anything you want, as much
    as you want, you continue to lose weight.  When you hit the weight you
    want, take another pill, one time.
    
    It *worked*.
    
    unfortunately, it worked because it infected you with tape worm (or
    some other type of worm), which of course will make you lose weight. 
    THe "finishing" pill (was suppposed to) de-worm you.
    
    UG!  
    
    And talk about not changing your eating habits!
    
    D!

    
    THere was a point about 2 years ago where I put on enough weight to go
    on WW.  I borrowed my Mom's stuff (she's been on WW numerous times) and
    just read it front to back and followed what they said.
    
    In my case it worked because I took off somewhere in vicinity of 15-20
    pounds in about 5-6 weeks.  I still remember just about everything they
    printed about how to eat right, and all the calorie counts for
    different foods, and which were what type of food (protein, carbo, fat,
    vegetable).
    
    I've been trying over the past couple months to really cut back on
    "things that are bad for you", and I've used the WW guidelines as a
    sort of "plan" to help me out.  I can still fit into all my clothes, so
    I guess it's been working.  I have a couple of rules that I follow
    strictly, like "if it's going to put cellulose on the buttocks, leave
    it in the store", and "is this thing that I'm eating REALLY worth the
    amount of calories that it packs?".
    
    Another thing that I've found is that once I've cut out the high-fat and
    high-sugar items from my diet for even a week or two, my body is no
    longer able to process them very well.  Hence, if I throw a
    grease-laden order of onion rings down the gullet, I'm going to feel
    very bad later on.  This is a good side-effect of eating well, but
    I'm not sure that it works on everyone.
    
    Lisa

           "Why does good food that's good for you taste so bad?"
    
    I guess I'll lose weight when broccoli tastes like a Big Mac!
    
    

    
    Robert - 
    
    I'm still interested.  Your guidelines sound like a good collection of
    ideas.  I'm interested in teh details.
    
    Jamd

D! is right. If you really want to keep weight off you make a *lifestyle* change.
Diets are only temporary. They can't make up for bad eating habits once you
lose the weight.

Foods that are good for you do taste good! In fact, they are often better than
what you formerly enjoyed once you get used to them. You need to retrain your
tastebuds. If people can learn to think caviar tatses good then broccoli ought
to be easy. :*)

And for those who can't resist. When I absolutely *have* to have a hamburger
the MCLean isn't bad, though it desparetely needs salt. It only has 10 grams
of fat which still leaves me 30 left for the rest of the day. liesl

    re; good food tasting bad...
    
    I beg to differ.  Ever since I started my new eating plan (which,
    incidentally, is mostly based on WW) I have been forced to cook for
    myself, rather than eat out every night, and live on junk food the rest
    of the time, as I had been doing.  I dreaded the meal plan, because I
    thought I didn't have time to cook, nor did I know how.  By necessity,
    though, I am learning to cook, and I am learning to plan my meals and
    my time around being able to cook, and it's *wonderful*.  I have had
    some of the most delicious meals - and was amazed to discover that I
    could make them myself!
    
    Most things you think of as fattening can be made fairly healthily by
    yourself.  Take a hamburger, for instance - a McD's burger is laden
    with salt and fat and other ickies.  And face it, it just isn't that
    good!  But make your own burger - use 90% lean mean, take 5 oz of raw
    hamburger (-> 4 oz when cooked), mix in some chopped onion and
    worchestire sauce, grill it up, toast up a roll, add a tablespoon of
    ketchup, some mustard, onions and pickles and voila, a quarter pounder
    that's healthier, tastier and fits into WW (4 Pr, 2 Br, 50 optional
    calories.)
    
    That's the difference between "diets" and changing your way of eating. 
    Obviously, you are not going to give up pizza, lasagne, fried
    chicken, etc FOREVER.  If you take the attitude that you are going to
    give them up just long enough to lose weight, you'll just gain the
    weight back.  If you take the attitude that you *can* eat those things,
    but in smaller amounts, and with careful planning, then that's a plan
    you can maintain forever!
    
    As long as you tell yourself that diet=not eating food you like, you
    can't change you eating habits permanantly.
    
    I've lost 25 pounds, and I am still no more fond of brocolli than I was
    3 months ago.
    
    D!

    Ah, but fussy eater that I am......LOBSTER, yuk!
    
    Vegetables, double yuk...condiments; ketchup only
    on fries, mustard only on hotdogs, which I rarely eat
    anyway.  Onions, garlic, seasonings, spices, all are
    no-no-no...I order a Big Mac without the onions...
    Salad is o.k. once in a while, but I do not like
    tomatoes, or anything made with them (except ketchup)
    so I don't eat lazagna or spaghetti....corn, carrots
    and green beans are the veggies I will eat, along with
    lettuce and cukes.  
    My dislike of foods that are good is my biggest downfall.
    And, no, you cannot learn to like something, you learn
    to tolerate it because you *must* have it, but I didn't
    like it at 5, 10, 15, and I don't like it now (at thirtysomethin').
    Makes most "diets" useless for me, as they become boring
    very fast.  I'm not a good role model for a child to
    look up to, when it comes to eating all my veggies (-;
    
    HRH
    

 >     And, no, you cannot learn to like something, you learn
 >     to tolerate it because you *must* have it, ...

    Surprisingly, this is not universally true. I was a decided
    vegephobe through my 20s, and while there are still lots of
    vegetables I avoid (brussels sprouts, eggplant, artichoke) I do
    eat many more willingly.

    The difference? My earlier experiences were with overcooked
    vegetables; school cafeteria variety, or my mother's cooking (she
    grew up in the South, where you start cooking beans Tuesday for
    Thursday dinner).

    However, if you just threaten *fresh* vegetables sternly by
    showing them the stove from across the room, and *then* eat them,
    they're surprisingly good. I drive 15 miles from Carlisle MA to
    Acton to buy vegetables from Idlewilde (Elegant Farmer in
    Chelmsford is okay, but not as good), and (unless desparate) won't
    touch vegetables in the typical supermarket.

    It may be more acquired snobbery than acquired taste, but it works.

        And, no, you cannot learn to like something
    
    Yes, "I" can learn to like something.
    
    I don't see why other people couldn't, but anyway, I know for a fact
    that it is possible, because I've done it.
    
    Here's my attitude about food, and in fact, about everything in life: i
    am a die-hard hedonist. I want pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.  As often
    as from as many sources as possible.  Everything that I don't like
    means on less source of pleasure than I might otherwise have.  when I
    don't like something, I feel *gypped*.  So I teach myself to like it. 
    It's hard and it takes time, but it has worked for me in the past. 
    Things I used to hate but now eat, often enjoy, and sometimes even
    love:  mushrooms, fish, radishes, oysters, squash, hummus, tabouleh,
    spinach, ham, pepper (black), red peppers, soft-boiled eggs, salmon,
    sushi, tofu, sausage, onions.  Things I'm still working on: fish,
    eggplant, cooked squash, asparagus, ratatouille, lettuce other than
    iceberg, turnips, turkey.  The one thing I cannot abide under any
    circumstances: green pepper.  (The smell makes me want to throw up.)
    
    Doesn't your food get boring, even when you aren't dieting???  Frankly,
    I can't imagine being such a picky eater, I'd go bonkers having so
    little variety in my food!  I still can't understand how you get bored
    with your meal plan if your regular (non meal-plan) food doesn't make
    you bored.  What is it that you live on that you can't eat on WW?
    
    D!

    
    .129, it doesn't sound like it's any fun to eat out with you.
    
    There's very few things in life I have less patience with
    than adult picky eaters - I feel like yelling at them,
    "GROW UP!"
    
    
    P.S. I am *not* referring to people with food allergies,
    ulcers, diets necessary for health reasons, and people
    who are overweight and trying to diet.
    

    re .132

    That may be carrying things a *bit* far. When you're more in the
    middle, you realize that disliking foods can be more than just
    obstinance. Some foods that I dislike can produce a gag reflex,
    and that includes things like overcooked peas (*fresh* peas I
    gobble up). I don't think it's too unreasonable to allow someone
    to avoid foods that produce such negative physical reactions, even
    if there may be a psychological basis to the reaction. (Avoiding
    overcooked peas is much cheaper than extended psychoanalysis.)

    A bit defensive on my part perhaps, since your note wasn't
    directed at me, but as a "mostly-but-not-totally-reformed"
    picky eater, I feel I can issue a partial defense. There are areas
    where I'd be viewed as totally picky ... I'll decline desserts
    made with liqueur, even though there's not enough to intoxicate,
    because I decided long ago not to drink, and I stick to it.

    Mostly (I do take cough medicine when I've got a cold - but I
    think I'd still decline a dessert made with Formula 44).

    Re .131 -  
    
    I eat too much (meat) beef, chicken, pork, etc. and not enough 
    veggies.  Too much "fast food" and "junk food", too.
    
    Re .132 -
    
    I don't consider dining out with someone "fun".....
    
    However, I do enjoy certain places....fresh baked yeast rolls,
    a garden salad w/homemade creamy italian dressing, filet mignon
    and chocolate mousse for dessert at Hells Blazes Tavern or The
    Wildwood....
    
    Re .133 - 
    
    Fresh peas from the garden, not bad....cooked, ICK! (-;
    
    HRH
    

                -< Gee, you must lead a boring life if dining is fun.. >-
    
    You think so??? 
    
    Sheesh, food is one of my great joys in life!  Food, sex, music, books,
    conversation - those are the things I live for.  If I had to give up
    one - gosh, I don't know what I'd choose.  I can't *imagine* not having
    the pleasure of food in my life.
    
    Diff'rent strokes, I guess.
    
    But if your attitude is that food is no fun, then why do you get bored
    of food?
    
        I eat too much (meat) beef, chicken, pork, etc. and not enough
        veggies.  Too much "fast food" and "junk food", too.
     
    But as I said, fast food and junk food can be done at home in a healthy
    way.  Meat and such has to be limited in quanity, but you can still eat
    it.  So I'm still lost as to how your "regular" diet is more varied
    than your "diet" diet.
    
    Like, if you eat fast food = hamburgers three times a week, then you
    can just eat those same burgers at home three times a week.  If you
    normally eat 8 oz of steak with two potatoes normally, you could eat 4
    oz of steak with one potato.  Why would 3 home cooked hamburgers, or
    half as much steak, be more *boring* than 3 fast-food hamburgers or
    twice as much steak?
    
    D!

    
    I'm another one for whom it's possible to learn to like something. 
    Maybe it was all those years of my mother saying "your taste buds just
    haven't matured yet" after I tried something I didn't like.  I grew up
    on canned vegetables, iceberg lettuce, and white bread, but this was
    because I didn't like fresh or frozen vegetables (except corn), green
    lettuces, or homemade bread as a child and my mother fed me (and my
    siblings) what we'd eat.  I gradually came to prefer and enjoy fresh 
    and some frozen vegatables, other lettuces and bread with substance.
    
    In recent years, I have come to dislike whole milk in my tea as tasting
    too fatty, and my tolerance for highly salted food has decreased even
    though most of my life I loved salty foods.  I've also come to enjoy
    brown rice (basmati most of all).  I'm still working on eggplant and 
    different squashes.  I have no interest in expanding my enjoyment of
    mushrooms other than the white supermarket variety. :-)
    
    Cq

    I don't think I could ever join Weight Watchers.  To me, the members
    all sound like they've "gotten religion" and I can't deal with the
    intensity.  It's a problem with programs in general.  If they're not
    being fervent, they're being cheerleaders.  Ugh!

    >I don't think I could ever join Weight Watchers.  To me, the members
    >all sound like they've "gotten religion" and I can't deal with the
    >intensity. 
    
    Hahahaha!  If you think WW sounds like a religion, you should see OA!  
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    D!, convert

re .132,

>    .129, it doesn't sound like it's any fun to eat out with you.
>    
>    There's very few things in life I have less patience with
>    than adult picky eaters - I feel like yelling at them,
>    "GROW UP!"
>    
>    
>    P.S. I am *not* referring to people with food allergies,
>    ulcers, diets necessary for health reasons, and people
>    who are overweight and trying to diet.

There are many foods that I do not eat, not for health reasons, but
because I do not like how they taste.  If you have a problem with
that, I would hope that you would not be so rude and intolerant as
to yell "GROW UP!" at me across the table.

Dan

    I must be really weird, but I can take or leave food. When I first got
    a place of my own, I had baked beans on toast every night for the first
    two weeks 'cos thats all I could be bothered to cook. I started eating
    other things when my friends stopped calling round !  #-)
    
    Even now I'm just as likely to have half a dozen slices of toast for 
    supper as put something in the microwave. I do have a proper meal (in 
    the canteen) at lunchtime though. If I ever become overweight I would
    be able to diet easily. I have a small enough appetite as it is. I do
    appreciate good food, just as long as I don't have to cook it. 
    
    
    Jerome the Weirdo who hates cooking = lots of washing up.

    Jerome -
    
    That's what paper plates and plastic forks are for! (-;
    (without them I would never be able to spend time with
    my husband, the horses, or the garden, or in the pool....(-: )
    
    It's the time factor, actually....I hate spending the
    time putting together a meal when I would rather be doing 
    something else.  Yes, that homecooked burger or steak or
    chicken does taste better, but the 1.5 hrs to prepare and
    cleanup afterwards, vs a quick stop through the drivethru.....
    
    HRH
    

    Ah yes, there's the clincher, it isn't boredom with food but
    frustration with time. I know the feeling...my first stab at weight
    watchers was less than fully successful, because I figured out there
    were about four things I could eat that fit on plan that required
    hardly any prep time at all, and those four items got boring.
    
    But the fault wasn't with WW - *no* diet can do your cooking for you. 
    (Well, actually, Nutrisystem did my cooking for me for two months. 
    Talk about getting bored of the food, though!)
    
    Fortunately, cooking is something that grows on you.  Or at least it
    grows on me. It used to be a chore, now I have fun at it.  And I have
    learned how to be more efficient - it does *not* take me an hour and a
    half to prepare and clean up from a burger!  In fact, it probably takes
    only 10 minutes longer than stopping at McDonalds would.
    
    D!

D! is right.  I think most people have a mistaken concept of how much
time is required.

I can cook a scrumptious dinner of braised chicken breast in any of
several sauces (a jalapeno-spicy pepper jack cheese comes to mind) with
rice or noodles or a potato, and with a steamed fresh vegetable, in 
less than half an hour from opening the fridge door to serving.  This
is without undue hurry.  In 45 minutes I can do more exotic things; a
jambalaya or a real Indian chicken curry with a pullao takes only about
an hour.

Cleaning up takes 10 minutes or less - I put the flatware and china in
the electric dishwasher and then wash the pots and pans by hand.

Efficiency is key -- you start something that takes little time and can
go on cooking unassisted, and then you do the more complex stuff.  Set
a curry to cooking and you have time to start the pullao or fry up a
few poppadums or...

-d

    For help with efficient cooking, you could look at Pierre Franey's
    two-volume "Sixty Minute Gourmet" cookbooks.  There is another
    cookbook, compiled by the food editor of the Washington Post, that
    describes meals that can be cooked, from start to finish, in twenty
    minutes. 
    
    In addition there is a notes conference (of course) that includes
    in its entries many recipes that are fast and efficient and interesting
    and delicious.  The conference is located at PAGODA::COOKS (KP7, etc.)
    
    					andrew

    "Efficient" means to me cooking enough for multiple meals, and
    sometimes freezing.  Whatever I make, I almost always make enough at
    least for lunch the next day, sometimes enough for a dinner or two. 
    Also, I am willing to spend a little extra for convenience, like buying
    pre-boned chicken breasts.
    
    it also takes a little planning, so that you have ingredients on-hand;
    and remembering to do things that sticking that chicken in the marinade
    before you leave the house in the morning or whatever.
    
    Check out the ASICS::WEIGHT_CONTROL notesfiles for some good lo-cal
    recipes.  Or send me mail for suggestions... :-)
    
    (Last night was chicken marinated in white wine, lemon and herbs and
    sauted in olive oil.  4 proteins, 1 fat, 10 minutes to prepare, not
    counting the day that it was in the fridge marinating.  The night
    before was bean tacos [I make the world's best bean tacos] - 3 bean pr,
    1 cheese pr, 1 fat, 2 bread, 1 vegetable, 20 minutes prep time (and only
    because I insist on sauteing onions rather than adding them raw as some
    people do.)
    
    Yum!
    
    D!

    
    
    I love to cook, really! (-;  
    
    But, it's an hour drive home from Boston, (6:00) and if I want
    to ride before it gets dark, then clean the barn, feed the horses
    and rabbits, then in the house to feed the cats and my husband, 
    clean the kitchen, fit in laundry, and house chores, and get ready 
    for work the next day, it is now 11:00 pm......
    
    That 1.5 hrs of cooking, eating and clean-up is a serious dent in
    my available time.....and, I would rather be outside enjoying myself!
    
    HRH
    

    Re .145  
    
    And, I won't eat anything cooked in oil, especially stir fry
    or spicy foods...I won't even put black peper on my food....
    
    HRH

    
    re .141:
    
>   That's what paper plates and plastic forks are for! (-;
    
    Oh no!  An evil polluter among our midst!!!
    
    
    expounding on my .132 on not being "fun" to eat out with:
    
    1) I was thinking of trying to pick a place to eat, and how
    there's always this *one* friend who "can't" eat at 4 out of
    5 restaurants the group tries to pick because *he* "can't
    eat there".  He'll eat at Pizza Hut, but not Pizzeria Uno!
    Even when 5 out of the 6 of us prefer Uno's!  He absolutely
    refuses to eat at Uno's.  Grrrr!  Difficult people
    inconveniencing 6 other people all at once.  Double Grrrr just 
    thinking about it makes me angry.  I REFUSE to go out to eat
    with this "child-adult" any more!  *That's* what I mean by
    "not fun".
    
    2) I was thinking of the problems with ordering family-style
    in a Chinese or Thai restaurant.  One woman I know won't
    eat tofu, veggies, or anything spicy.  So we've got to order
    something totally boring from the menu like hot and sour chicken.
    Real adventurous.  Ho-hum.
        

  First of all ... I'm the opposite of a picky eater, ... I love almost
  all foods (as long as they aren't cooked wrong)

  Stir Frying can cook with as little as a tablespoon of oil. If you prefer
  to not use peanut oil (the most heat resistant), you could use extra
  vergin olive oil (which is good for you) and keep the temp a hair below
  hottest.

  Note that with a real wok, simply brushing the wok with a bamboo brush
  under hot water is all the cleaning it takes.  No soap should be used!
  (it takes a minute to clean up)

  Stir fries are very healthy and quick.  Pasta is also a good diet choice.
  It is high in easily burned carbo's and low in fat. (use tomato sauce
  and little or no cheese) Its also an easy meal to fix and doesn't take
  long to cook.  (is great for leftovers too!)

  There was an excellent show on PBS recently .. with a nutritionist who
  grouped foods together from good to bad.  He grouped butter, cooking 
  oil and vasaline all in one group.  (to make a point that he didn't 
  consider butter and oil foods at all, but lubricants)  Think of how much
  butter is used in cooking, especially at resteraunts.

  -paul

  re 148 

  I've always been somewhat bothered by people who won't eat this and that
  ... and most everything except meat and potatos.  

  Getting back to the resteraunt theme ... people who order something in a
  resteraunt and .. because there might be something in it they don't like,
  or they simply don't like it, ask the waiter to take it back.
  (this doesn't bother me if its burnt or raw, and thats not how 
   they ordered it)

  I cooked for my brother and his girlfriend and part of the meal was a veggie
  stir fry with shrimp.  She proceeded to take a very large portion, then
  picking through eating only the shrimp and not touching the veggies.

  Grrrrrrr ..... (not to mention she wouldn't even try some of the other 
                  dishes I prepared)

      
  -paul 

    Re .150
    
    Maybe it wasn't cooked the way she likes it......veggies
    not cooked enough....or too much for her tastes....
    People shouldn't *assume* their cooking is so great that
    someone wouldn't dare to not like it.....
    
    When I go to a restaurant, I ASK what is in/what is
    used to cook the item.  I ask them to leave off what I
    don't care for, and a good rest. will......
    
    I'm not a vegetarian, but I would gladly make something
    so that that vegetarian can enjoy the meal with my guests
    and I.  I see no difference between this and a picky eater...
    
    

    
    re .151:
    
    >Maybe it wasn't cooked the way she likes it......
    
    That's not the point!  She was a *guest*. And she was
    rude.
    
    Doesn't it seem to make *any* impression on you at all,
    Lynn, that the person who cooked the food that wasn't
    eaten was made to feel bad!  I was taught to say "thank you"
    and *praise* the cook for a meal (and whether I *liked* it
    or not is immaterial!)  Someone went out of their way
    for *me*.
    
    To avoid this problem, I suggest that when you take an
    invitation to someone's house for a meal, you'd either better
    inform them in advance of any dietary restrictions (if the
    host/hostess doesn't ask first, which is also polite), or
    eat what's served.
    

    re.148
    
    [ oh dear, maybe I'm no fun to eat with ... ;^} ]
    
    I can't eat seafood [OK, so I _can_, but then I become itchy sick and
    cranky]. Yet I go to a lot of seafood restaurants.
    
    Just for the company.  I don't expect 9 people who become orgasmic
    at the thought of lobster to eat kibbee and taboule with me. [at least
    not _all_ the time].
    
    In the beginning, many of my nearest and dearest would become
    distraught because I wasn't eating the "theme" food -- such a waste. 
    Occasionally, I have to reiterated _why_ I'm there, to enjoy the
    time together.
    
    Eating I can do. Finding the time to spend with special friends is more
    important.
    
      Annie

when eating with folks, I:

	1) do not take any of what I cannot eat on my plate.  I don't
	   insult the food, disparage the cook, or pick over the dish,
	   I simply don't take it on my plate.  If asked why, I simply
	   explain that I cannot eat [food] because I have allergies.

	2) take small portions of whatever I choose to eat onto my
	   plate.  If I don't like it, I don't have much to eat and
	   no one who does like it is left without.  If I love it,
	   I can ask for seconds.

	3) eat a reasonable amount of what I do take on my plate.  If
	   I am unsure of what the dish contains, I default to rule 1.
	   I do not feel compelled to 'clean my plate' and I generally
	   don't completely clean my plate...I tend to leave a little
	   because I am trying to break old habits - "clean your plate"
	   makes folks fat.

	4) when out with friends, I order what I feel like eating, and
	   take any suggestion that I do otherwise with humor, but ignore
	   the suggestion.  My mother stopped selecting my menu years ago,
	   and she was the only one who could ever provide that service.

    As an addendum to .154, this note to the host or hostess:
    
    It's rude to ask why the guest isn't eating what s/he isn't eating.  If
    s/he took *nothing* then maybe it's okay to ask if there's something
    you can get hir so s/he won't have to stare at an empty plate, but
    otherwise leave hir alone.
    
    -d

    Re: .146
    
    Er, Lynne, what is your husband doing while you're riding, currying and
    feeding the horse, cooking dinner, feeding the cats, cleaning up the
    dishes, running the laundry, et al...?  My wife and I share household
    chores of all sorts.
    
    -d

    One of the other aspects of cooking is the fact you have to buy 
    the ingredients. 
    
    I *HATE* supermarkets (all shops in fact) and I generally go to the 
    local minimart. These places have a limited amount of stuff so I end 
    buying 5 tins of beans, 5 tins of soup, etc.  I hate wasting 45 mins 
    in a supermaket looking for your stuff then queueing etc. I'm one of 
    these people that wants to race round  90 miles an hour to get it over 
    quickly. Cripes, some people go so slowly they probably get charged rent. 
    I also refuse to go in the  ones that change the displays round every 
    week (just about all of 'em) so you spend more time in there. i guess 
    I'm destined to either eat out (=expensive) or eat boring stuff. Not 
    that I mind too much though. I've got better things do than shopping
    or cooking, like sitting on my bum watching T.V.
    
    
    Jerome the terminally lazy. 

Jerome, it would appear from the run of your remarks that eating isn't
something you care enough about to make an effort.  That's okay.  For
me and for many others here, D! for one, food is something to be taken
as *enjoyment* -- and enjoying food usually means one learns about what
goes into the food, and that often leads to a sincere pleasure in the
sensual aspects of cooking.  Sometimes cooking is just something that is
sufficiently mindless to feel good, too.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Chacun a son gout.

Et cetera.  :-)

-d, who is going to take off early today to put on a full-blown Indian
spread for the conductor of the Nashua Symphony Orchestra

   re .151

     When it comes to cooking, I'm my own worst critic ... and I felt bad
   when she didn't seem to like the veggies, ... however, my brother 
   mentioned later that she just doesn't eat vegetables except corn.
   (canned corn at that)

     O well, its really no big deal, ... I just hate seeing good food
   go to waste.  


   -paul

    Paul,
    It might not be big deal but my sympathies are with you.  If the
    woman doesn't eat vegetables she should have said so previously,
    and certainly shouldn't have taken a good-sized helping just to
    pick out the shrimp.  I think she was rude and insensitive.
    
    Sue - who also hates to see food wasted or cooks' feelings hurt

    Sue, 
    
    I agree. I have eaten food that I don't like when I think it will
    offend or upset someone. I do draw the line at things that make me
    ill, but that goes without saying. Being sick on the table would
    probably be more offensive. If you are either a veggie or a fussy
    eater, IMHO I think it is your prerogative to inform the person
    cooking for you of what you do/don't eat. I would not invite someone
    who was as rude and ignorant enough to take the large portion to get 
    the shrimps and leave the rest to my place to eat again.
    
    
    Jerome.
           

    Re .152
    
    BTW, it's Lynne <== it's rude to spell someone's name wrong,
    it leaves them with the impression that you don't care enough
    to make sure you spell it right....(-8  
    
    I *never* accept an invitation to someone's house or out
    to dinner without telling them about my *food fussyness*.
    My family and friends think it's funny, and it's a running
    joke.  I simply ask what they plan to serve....if they are
    serving chicken in spicy herb sauce, for instance, I ask
    that they leave my portion plain.  The only person who
    has a problem with my "F F", is my M-I-L, who couldn't
    cook to save her life,(-; and I *cannot* force myself to eat
    food that tastes like cardboard,(being kind, here) or to eat 
    something I dislike, not even to please someone who announces 
    that - Your not eating!!! - at a table full of people.  Or to
    be *polite* for that matter.
    
    Re .156 - 
    
    Can't catch him there, -d! (-8  We own 1.5 acres, so while I play,
    He's mowing the lawn, dumping the manure trailer, (mind you,
    these are "my" horses, cats and rabbits...he could take 'em or 
    leave 'em, except for 2 of the cats, so...) fixing the corral
    fences, cleaning the pool, finishing the barn, doing yardwork, 
    not to mention all he does around the house...he does vacuum,
    laundry (he is not allowed to wash any of my clothes, tho'.
    Too many accidents with red or dry clean only things...you know!)
    will start dinner with coaching from me (pasta & omlettes he can 
    cook....anything else is a toss-up! (-8 )  He does more than his
    fair share.....  
    
    Re .159 -
    
    She sounds like my kind of dinner guest...what's her number? (-;
    
    Re . Sue & Jerome....
    
    .........You would sit there and lie about what a wonderful 
    dinner you just had, and then refuse any more invitations, 
    (because you didn't enjoy the meal...the food was badly prepared, 
    tasted terrible, or whatever) which would hurt, offend or 
    upset me a lot more than your not liking what was served and
    you saying so.....
    
    
    HRH	
    
    
    

    Lynne,
    
    No, I would not "sit there and lie" and, no, I would not refuse
    further invitations.  If there were certain foods I wouldn't
    eat, I would tell my host when I was invited to dinner.  If the
    food served was something I wasn't particularly fond of, I would
    take a small serving and eat it.  You can eat food you're not
    thrilled with and live, you know.  As for coming back for another
    visit, I would if I enjoyed the company and conversation.  Those
    are the real reasons I accept dinner invitations, the food
    is only secondary.  
    
    Sue
    
      

    re .156 and .158
    
    Hi -d,
    
    As for Indian cuisine, should .156 read "feeding and currying the
    horse", as in first you fatten them up, and then...
    
    Profound apologies to horse lovers for my sense of humor -- I sometimes
    mock-threaten my cats and dogs with participation in culinary
    delights...
    
    OK, I'll go back to jury duty...
    
    Ron 

Re: .158 (-d):

> De gustibus non est disputandum.
> Chacun a son gout.

Sic biscuitas disintegratum? 8-)

[Some days, that's how my cooking goes..........]

--jim

>                                  You can eat food you're not
>    thrilled with and live, you know.
    
:-) :-)

I confess, I find it irritating to eat with picky eaters too.

Kathy      

    Ah, the advantages of being a hermit.  The people who have me over for
    dinner on the rare occasion know me well enough to know that I have 
    certain strong prejudices.  One friend (the one who does the real, 
    honest-to-goodness dinner parties) tells me what's on the menu. 
    Everything else is pretty informal, so they don't care if I pick out
    the mushrooms.

    re .162, Lynne,

    I apologize for not spelling your name as you like in my
    previous note.  However, I wish you'd given me some credit
    for trying to address you by name.  This is what I've been
    taught is considered polite.  Something you did not even
    try to do for me.

    From the interactions I've had with others, I have the gotten
    the impression that most people appreciate other people
    even trying to address them by name.

    I am sorry I did not "try" hard enough for you.

    Bottom line: I think your note is very rude, mean-spirited,
    and in poor taste.  If you were trying to hurt me, Lynne,
    well, it worked.
    

>so they don't care if I pick out the mushrooms.

 Nekulturny! :-)

    My husband still wonders why his mother would never agree, when he was
    a kid, to fix him a different dinner than the rest of the family if she
    was serving something he didn't like!  (What is she, a short-order
    cook?  No, a teacher of handicapped children, actually.)  He was a very
    picky eater when he was a kid!  Of course, if you ate his mother's
    cooking, you would figure out why everyone in that family is so SKINNY.
    At any rate, my husband will now eat nearly anything I cook for him
    (and has gained more weight that he should allow himself to, by a bit,
    anyhow), so long as it isn't brussel sprouts, parsley, or Swiss chard!
    I don't think it beneifts a child much to cater to their food whimsies
    to the extent of serving different food for different members of the
    family unless there is a health reason for it (like allergies).
    
    One of my cousins as a child would only eat cheerios, hotdogs, and
    canned peas.  For YEARS.  She turned out Ok in the end, though.  But
    her food preferences would never have cut it in my family, where "eat
    it and be glad you're living" was the operative rule.  My brother and I
    learned to eat everthing.
    
    /Charlotte

    Re .168   Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms  BLUMON::GUGEL
    
    It is difficult for me to address you by your first name,
    when you do not put it at the end of your notes, (I looked,
    .148, .152, & .168) or list it in your personal name section.
    Will the above formal style do?
    
    >> Oh no, an evil polluter amoung our midst!  (Re .148)
    
    You stated the above about me, (and you have never met me,
    talked to me, or noted with me before) and then say I
    was mean-spirited, in poor taste...and you called me >evil<?? 
    
    I did put a smiley face on the end of >my< comment, didn't I?
    
    It sounds to me that you don't value someone's differences....
    I consider a picky eater someone with a difference, just like
    someone with an accent hard to understand, or a different upbringing.
    I accept it, work with it or around it.  I don't lose patience with
    someone because they won't eat everything, or are afraid of my cats,
    I work with them instead...
    
    HRH
    	

    Charlotte,
    Your family sounds like mine.  If my grandfather saw anyone leaving
    food of the plate, he'd start a booming tirade about "not wasting
    God's food."  I don't believe in insisting my children (or anyone)
    eat when they don't want to, but have always told them it's not
    good manners to take it onto their plate if they're not going to eat
    most of it (discretely moving unwanted bits of onion or mushroom is
    allowed).  If they don't like what I've cooked, I tell them to go
    forage through the kitchen and find something for themselves. My
    husband is somewhat less tolerant (his parents lived through a
    famine in the war) and insists they try at least one bite if the
    dish is one they've never had before.  It's amazing, isn't it,
    what an emotional subject food is?
    
    Sue 

  Charlotte

  I don't think anyone in my family would have even dared ask for a different
  dinner than the rest of the family.  I must admit, both of my parents are
  good cooks, and I can't remember ever getting anything that I really 
  hated.  (except for maybe my dads giant hamburgers)

  Anyways, .. I think being almost forced to eat everything (I don't mean
  eating past the point of being full .. I mean eating veggies as well as
  the meat and  so on) .. is probably one of the reasons why I like just
  about everything .. 

  Actually, .. the only thing I don't like, olives, .. my brother used to
  love, and I would give them to him, so I never had to eat olives.

  I think if I ever have kids some day ... they will definenetly NOT have
  their meals made to what they feel like eating.  They'll eat what I feel
  like cooking ... (and like it! 8^) )

  Well, within reason, I think this method is good for kids.
  But, thats just my opinion!

  -paul

    
    Lynne, my name is in my intro in note #2.  I notice you
    do not always sign your name either (only sometimes).
    
    I don't see much to value in the action of using and
    throwing away paper plates and plastic forks for ordinary
    meals (I'm not talking about serving a crowd or special
    events, even here).  Sorry, Lynne, I don't value it, and
    *will* denigrate it.  It's always bad in my book, unless,
    as I said, there is a special reason.  If your convenience
    is more important than the environment to you, I can't value
    it.
    
    And if making sure that people who go out of their way to
    cook for you *know* how put-out you are by "ooh! yuck! pooey!"
    actually having to eat their food, then, NO, I *don't* value
    that.  If it's more important to you that your mother-in-law
    must know that her food tastes like cardboard than for you
    to lie and make her feel good, no I don't value that.  It's
    downright rude.
    
    Wake up to what valuing differences is all about, Lynne.
    

    Re .173 & .174
    
    That's why I'm glad we had a dog...come dinnertime, he
    loved to sit next to me! (-;
    
    Your brother ate your olives......my sister ate my
    veggies for me!  (I would give her my dessert in exchange
    she loved vegetables - I didn't care much for desserts)
    
    I remember once being told I couldn't leave the table unless
    I finished my vegetables. (Peas, I think...)  Anyway, two
    hours later, my mom told me I could leave, and she scraped
    the untouched peas into the dogs dish.
    	
    HRH
    

    Of course food is an emotional subject - water and oxygen would be too
    if we had to work harder to get them... I think Heinlein wrote one of
    his stories of a lunar colony based on mining ice and frozen gas
    deposits.
    
    Anyhow, I guess the reason you ate what was put before you in my house
    when I was a kid was because my mother's mother (a very practical lady! 
    My dad called her "Mrs. Necessity".) was widowed at a very young age,
    so there was never any excess food to be wasted in that household.  My
    father was born in a sod chanty in Kansas, although I think his family
    had about as much material wealth as anyone else in the tiny town they
    lived in when he was a kid (he was born in 1917), which wasn't saying
    much.  I waste more food than my folks did, but it seems rather sinful
    to me to do so!
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Background: I think one reason I have a healthy attitude
    about food (i.e., not picky) is that my mother never forced
    me or any of my siblings to eat anything we really didn't
    like.  She always wanted us to *try* things, though.
    So even if it meant trying 2 peas every week and saying we
    didn't like it, that was good enough for her.  And actually,
    one of my brothers *was* a real problem because he didn't like
    *anything*.  But he was only one out of eight that was a
    problem.  And even he's a good eater now that he's an *adult*.
    
    Mom wouldn't cook any special foods for us, but with 10
    people to cook for, she often decided ahead of time to
    offer two choices - usually last night's leftovers as well
    as something newly cooked.  And everyone (but my one brother)
    was always satisfied.
    
    I really appreciate the magnitude of the job my mother
    did for us for all of those years.
    

    Yes, Dan believes that chocolate is at the bottom of the food
    pyramid -- he eats lots of it every day. Very healthy (I'm so
    jealous!!). 
    
    Liz, who's cut way back on chocolate and misses it terribly.
    

    re .177, Ellen:

>    Background: I think one reason I have a healthy attitude
>    about food (i.e., not picky) is that my mother never forced
>    me or any of my siblings to eat anything we really didn't
>    like.  She always wanted us to *try* things, though.

    $ set sarcasm on

    Background: I think one reason I have a healthy attitude
    about food is that is it my attitude.  If your attitude
    is different, then, well, you draw your own conclusions.

    Dan

re .179...Liz's reply was to an earlier version of my .178.

Dan, who by the way has also cut back on chocolate but not way back

    
    re .178:
    Dan, normally, I don't like to play so nasty, but since
    you're starting in with the sarcasm at me, let me just
    state that *I*, at least, of the two us of, have never
    had a weight problem.  So who's attitude about food is
    really healthier, Dan?
    

    It is my firm belief that most weight problems are not a result of attitude
    good or otherwise.  There is significant research to support this
    belief.
    
    I think that the fact that the subject of food, what we eat and how we
    eat it can generate the type of discussion we are having only indicates
    how powerful this appetite is and how much society evaluates our
    worthiness by how we eat and how much we eat.  
    
    If a person is thin, has a high metabolism, and/or exercises
    excessively that is goodness.  
    
    But if a person is overweight there is are many assumptions.
    
    I personally feel there are many contributing factors to what we
    eat, how we eat it and what happens to us when we do eat.
    
    Ellen, I say without sarcasm that being thin does not necessarily
    mean you have a healthy attitude about food.  You could be anorexic.
    
      

The replies to this note show very much just how *important* food is to us. No
wonder dieting is so hard. It's not just food, it's an entire social agenda.
If we ate the way we breath (ie: only get emotional when air's not available)
this wouldn't be such a charged issue. 

Think of all the important/special events in our lives that food is an integral
part of, birthday parties, holidays, most celebrations of any sort. 

Then we add the connections to love and care that food evokes and the act of
dieting becomes a social ordeal. liesl

I seem to remember that Dr Spock says that food issues are the first biggies
that shove their way in between parents and kids, starting in infancy, and
this note string surely bears the observation out.  People define both being
a gracious host and a polite guest in terms of it. So much of manners revolves
around it.  You're a good/bad parent based on your approach to it.  Your weight
(large or small) indicates that you are a good or bad person.

could we leave out the "your eating habits are bad and so are YOU, you 
inconsiderate <insert derogatory comment>" notes please!

Sara

    Oh Dan, I'm glad you haven't given it up altogether. You're my
    chocolate role model <grin>
    
    Liz

   I noticed someone mentioned  a "fast matabolism" ... I'm sure everyone
  knows someone who has a "fast matabolism".  

   According to Dr. (I forget his name) ... a nutritionist who has show's
  on PBS.  (I'll try to find his name) ...

   A persons matabolism is a direct result of the amount of arobic activity
  they engage in.  The ability to burn fat depends on the amount of a certain
  enzyme fat burning cells contain.  The more arobic exercise a person
  gets, the more of this enzyme the body produces, thus the faster fat is 
  burned.  SO - more fat burning enzyme = more fat burned, for the same
  amount of activity. 

   The docter calls this becomming a "better butter burner". (corny I know)

   The less arobic exercise one does, the less this enzyme is produced. 
  Thus, we need to rely more on sugar to provide oxygen (energy) to the 
  muscles. Doing anarobic exercise increases the sugar burning enzymes. 

   Its kind of a viscious cycle, ... more arobic activity = more fat burned =
  more energy = more arobic activity .. which equals more fat burned = ...
  and so on.

   (of course it also works the opposite way too)

   So ... for most people its quite possible to have a "fast matabolism" ..
  its not something that you're born with and something that stays constant
  throughout your life ... AND its certainly not an excuse to be overweight.


  -paul

   

There is a converse to the "better butter burner" aspect of metabolism,
however, and it is that a person who does more aerobic activity also
develops a metabolism that utilizes fuel more efficiently.  This means
that a lesser amount of food will produce the same available energy for
an active person, and the remainder will be -- and is -- available to
be converted to glycogen and ultimately fat.  So it turns out that the
aerobic activity part is a no-win situation unless it is pursued to the
degree of serious *exercise*.

-d, who was born with a fast metabolism and liked it so well he has been
careful not to lose it.  :-)

>    re .178:
>    Dan, normally, I don't like to play so nasty, but since
>    you're starting in with the sarcasm at me, let me just
>    state that *I*, at least, of the two us of, have never
>    had a weight problem.  So who's attitude about food is
>    really healthier, Dan?

Well, my weight stayed relatively constant for years when I
didn't want it to increase, and started to drop when I decided
I wanted it to decrease.  So that makes two of us without
weight problems.

But of the two of us, you are the only one who has entered
a number of rude and offensive replies in this topic.  So I
would say that makes you the one with the attitude problem.

Dan

    
    And .178 was perfectly polite, Dan?
    

    
    Ah, Folks.....  let's stop the back and forth jabs, ok?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Justine -- Comod
    
    

.186>   According to Dr. (I forget his name) ... a nutritionist who has show's
.186>  on PBS.  (I'll try to find his name) ...

	Covert Bailey (also author of "Fit or Fat", "Target Diet", and
other books).

	amy

  
    Thanks Amy ...  

    
  re .187 -  
 
   -d,

    Thats not quite what I was getting at. (nor is it correct, according
  to Covert Bailey, who may not be correct also)  First of all, if you become 
  a more efficient fuel burner, ... you burn more fuel (ie. calories)
  Thats opposite of you becomming a more efficient user of fuel, which
  would mean your muscles use less fuel for the same amount of output.
  Actually, his stance was, your muscles burn more FAT for the same 
  amount of output.

  I am not sure if your muscles can become more efficient at using fuel.

    Someone who burns mostly sugar for energy (non arobic exercise) will
  not be able to burn the fat they consume, and the fat will be directly
  transported to fat pockets in the body.  Sugar does not get directly 
  stored in the body as fat.  

   There is no adverse effect on ones matabolism by becomming more active
  (arobically) ... the only effect you will have is you will burn more fat,
  instead of the fat getting directly transferred to fat pockets in the body.
  
   It makes sense, ... I've never seen anyone gain weight (fat) by becomming
  more arobically active .... Have you?
   

  paul

    
    Gain muscle, yes.
    
    gain fat, no.
    
    I *weigh* a lot.  But my *bodyfat* is fairly low.
    
    I still think some people are born with the ability to burn food faster
    than others.  I know some people that eat a lot and weigh very little
    and are slender without a lot of exercise.  I know some people that eat
    a normal amount and weigh a lot even with a reasonable amount of
    exercise.  I suspect it's hereditary.
    
    -Jody
    

    Here is a little tip someone shared with me at a Weight Watchers
    meeting.  I don't know where the information comes from so I can't
    vouch for its accuracy but I do it anyway just in case (every little 
    bit helps).
    
    She suggested we eat a complex carbohydrate one hour before exercising.  
    This is supposed to benefit you by causing you to burn fat faster or
    better.  
    
    Unfortunately, the only complex carbohydrates I can ever remember are
    bananas.  However, bananas are easy to transport and are one of the few 
    fruits I really like so this works great for me.
    
    Jan

    
>    Unfortunately, the only complex carbohydrates I can ever remember are
>    bananas.  However, bananas are easy to transport and are one of the few 
>    fruits I really like so this works great for me.
    
and if you hate banannas, try just about any other fruit or whole grain or
vegetable.

According to the folks at "Lighten up for Life" where I attend classes the 
person who goes on a very low calorie diet teaches their body to use calories
*very* efficiently and to store the leftovers as fat. This is a natural response
to starvation. The body attempts to build up a storehouse for the next period
of starvation.

And according to an article in this month's Prevention magazine. Count your fat
grams and forget counting calories. A couple of studies, done on women, showed
that those who cut the fat to less than 30% of their daily intake, lost weight
without cutting food volume. liesl

   Re: -.1    by TINCUP::XAIPE::KOLBE

   I can verify that that approach does work personally.  I lost some
   major wieght by cutting fat and sugars.  I cut the sugars to avoid
   hypoglycima that it tends to aggravate (for me).  

   I found several things out about how the body burns and stores energy
   as a result of reading up.  Seems the body has really only two ways to
   store energy, as fat and tissue.  It's efficienty in storing energy
   as fat is notable (mine is).  However when it comes to burning energy
   the body uses the easiest sources first, sugar first, carbohydrates
   metabolized to sugars, next, then protein, followed by fats.  So by
   eliminating sugars and fats it was easy to cut the storage process
   by making the body metabolize carbohydrates and protein which also
   takes energy to do, double bonus.  There is still the matter that
   excess food is still converted to fat but the process requires energy
   also.  It still comes down to having less excess in the energy source
   department (less food).  The energy measurement is in terms of
   calories.  So if your body burns let say 2100 calories a day then your
   intake choice could be 233 grams of fat, 525 grams of protein, or 2100
   grams of carbohydrates. It's not hard to imagine which makes a larger
   pile on the plate... 8-)

   Allison


   pile on the plate...8-)  

>   as fat is notable (mine is).  However when it comes to burning energy
>   the body uses the easiest sources first, sugar first, carbohydrates
>   metabolized to sugars, next, then protein, followed by fats.  So by

	I believe it's sugar, carbos, fats, and then protein (muscles)
	


	*A*

   <	I believe it's sugar, carbos, fats, and then protein (muscles)
 
   Oops!  Got the last two backwards, thanks for fixing it.

   Allison

	RE: Cutting Fat-Grams instead of Calories....

	This is the edict of the T-Factor Diet.

	The following is quoted from some literature I have on the
	T-Factor diet.  I've spent my free time the past couple
	of days typing it in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	"The T-Factor refers to you body's natural energy consumption
	and fat burning processes, called by biochemists the "Thermic
	Effect of food and exercise", and "adaptive thermogenesis".
	Recent discoveries concerning these processes are about to 
	revolutionize the field of weight management.  In brief, these
	discoveries tell us that you can "turn up the burner" in
	your diet with proper diet and exercise.  YOU DO NOT HAVE TO
	CUT CALORIES TO LOSE WEIGHT.

	
			The New Facts About Weight Control

	1.  It's primarily fat in the diet that makes people fat.

	2.  The key to losing weight is to burn more fat in your
	    body's fuel mixture each day than you eat in your
	    daily diet.

	3.  Under normal circumstances, carbohydrate is not turned
            to fat.  Unless you outeat your energy needs by a
	    tremendous amount each day, your body converts very 
	    little carbohydrate to fat for storage.

	4.  Thus you can replace fatty foods in your diet with 
	    carbohydrate rich roods and still lose weight without
	    intentionally trying to cut calories.

	5.  Certain forms of physical activity burn more fat than
	    other forms.

	6.  Maintenance of ideal weight may depend more on fat in your
	    diet than on total calories.


	The fat gram quota for women is 20 to 40 grams of fat per day;
	for men it's 30 to 60 grams of fat per day.  Most people are
	fat because they are consuming over 100 grams of fat daily.
	When you reach your quota you can still eat just about anything
	else you want, as long as it does not contain fat.  Thus, you
	can always find something to satisfy your appetite and still
	lose weight.

	You can lose about a pound a week on the T-Factor Diet without
	cutting calories.  We know, however, that many overweight
	persons want to lose faster than a pound a week.  Using the
	Quick Melt (refer to book) program overweight persons can lose 
	between 9 and 12 pounds the first three weeks, and even up to a
	pound a day in severly overweight persons.

	Losing weight this quickly requires a temporary cut in calories.  
	Using the Quick Melt Program, women will be averaging 1200 
	calories daily, and men 1800.  You will lose weight more quickly
	than other 1200 or 1800 calorie diets because of the low fat
	content of the diet.

	Continuous whole body or large muscle movements, like walking,
	swimming, bicycling, rowing, cross country skiing, and jogging
	(we do not recomment jogging for overweight persons) burn more
	fat fhan other activities that involve start-stop mortion,
	like calistenics, tennis, racquetball, volleyball and aerobic
	dancing.  These last named activities tend to burn mostly
	carbohydrates rather than fat.

	Carbohydrate burning activities tend to turn on your appetite
	more than fat burning activities because your body stores so
	little carbohydrate fuel and strives to replace it on a daily
	basis.  Indeed, if you eat a high fat diet, you may actually
	overeat on fat before your carbohydrate stimulated appetite
	is satisfied.  That is why so many people find that physical
	activity of the wrong kind offers little if any aid in
	managing their weight and may even interfere.  Because 
	carbohydrate is stored with alot of water in the human body,
	the weight you  lose with carbohydrate is primarily water weight
	and tend to come back within 24 hours.


	Guide to Low-Fat Substitutions

	Use:                                Instead of:
 
	skim or low fat milk                whole milk or cream
	
	evaporated skim milk                cream, whipping cream

	plain low-fat or skim milk yoghurt  sour cream, mayonaise
	
	mustard                             mayonaise

	Blenderized low-fat cottage cheese  cream cheese or sour cream
	
	Skim milk or low-fat cheese         higher fat cheeses
	
	1/2 can soup and 4 oz skim milk     1 can cream soup in recipes

	sherbert, frozen low-fat desserts   icecream
	
	low-fat yoghurt with fresh fruit    commercial yoghurts with fruit,sugar

	2 egg whites or egg substitute      one whole egg

	reduced calorie mayonaise           regular mayonaise

	no-cal or low-cal salad dressings   regular salad dressings

	1/2 or less of the fat called for   regular amount of fat
            in recipes, rest in suitable
	    liquid

	blend of yoghurt and mayonnaise     salad dressing for tuna, chicken

	lean, well trimmed meats, under     regular, heavily marbled cuts,
           15% fat (flank, round)               over 15% fat

	chicken, turkey w/o skin	    poultry with skin, duck
	
	water packed fish                   fish canned in oil

	fresh fish, broiled, steamed,       fried fish, breaded frozen fish
           baked, poached

	low fat sauces and marinades        high fat sauces and marinades

	bouillon, herbs, wine, juices       gravy, fatty sauces

	legumes, beans, peas, tofu          meats

	meatless sauces                     sauces with meats

	steamed or microwaved vegetables    vegetables in margarine/butter
	   seasoned with herbs, spices,        or cheese sauce, or fried
	   lemon juice, low-fat sauces         vegetables

	unsweeted/water or juice packed     sweetened or syrup packed fruits
          fruits

	fresh or dried fruits               high fat snacks or desserts

	fresh fruit with juice              butter and syrup on pancakes

	water, club soda, tea, coffee       milk shakes

	unbuttered popcorn with seasonings  Buttered popcorn, chips, nuts
	   such as nutritional yeast

	pretzels                            chips, nuts

	low-fat yogurt dips                 sour cream dips

	raw vegetables, low-fat dips        chips, nuts, snack crackers

	whole gram bread, bagels, muffins   doughnuts, pastry

	low-fat crackers: Matzos,           high fat, flavored snack crackers
	   Rye-crisp, flatbread, saltines
	  
	low-fat cookies: ginger snaps,      high fat cookies
           fig bars, graham crackers, 
	   animal crackers

	angel food cake                     high fat cakes

	fresh fruit                         other desserts

	puddings with skim milk             puddings with whole milk

	jelly or jam on toast               butter, margarine, peanut butter

	---------------------------------------------------------------

	Now some comments of my own:

	I think what this says is that you want to fill up on the low 
	fat items and go easy on the high fat.  This diet is not something
	that you go on for a few weeks.  It is an entire life style change.
	By following it, you will be eating healthier too.  You have to
	really watch labels and counting fat is tricky.  You can get to
	20-30 grams before you know it.  I have a fat gram counter chart 
	in front of me and it is amazing to see how much fat some things 
	have.  The reason why so many diets fail is because the diets do	
	not teach you to change your eating habits so once your diet is
	over, you revert to your old eating habits.  I do not think that
	you need to go out and buy this book.  In fact, most of the
	information you need to know about this diet I just typed in.
	The most important things, IMO:

	1.  Count those fat calories and stay within your fat gram daily
	    intake limit.

	2.  Exercise.

	Remember, this is a lifestyle change.  If you must indulge
        on those favorites fattening foods, (I have a weakness for cheesy 
	things), don't do it often, and only if you have been behaving 
	yourself and deserve the treat (that doesn't mean every day).  
	If you try to deprive yourself of your favorites, you'll feel
	punished, so indulge yourself once in a while in a treat.

	When you reach your desired weight, don't change your eating
	habits.  If you keep losing and you do not want to, fill up
	on more carbohydrates but stay away from that fat!

	FYI, I am following this diet, not because I want to lose weight,
	but because it is healthy.

	If you want more information about the diet, most bookstores
	carry this book.  I think there is a T-Factor cookbook as well.
	It really preaches nothing new, just common sense that has been
	preached in so many diet books before.  It just presents it in
	a more scientific way.

	Karen

Referencing 893.116 ("D!"):

   Since this is not the first time you have made comments about entries in
this Notesfile without sufficient knowledge or understanding of what is being
commented about, your entry 893.116 does not surprise me.

   To rephrase what I said in my previous entry: 893.114 was a very
superficial overview, not a description of the actual dieting principles. There
are things in 893.114 that have similarities with the kinds of "reasonable"
plans given by such organizations as Weight Watchers, but that is because any
common sense eating plan that anyone comes up with is going to have things in
common with any other.

   And for your information, I've been a member of Weight Watchers and Diet
Workshop. I have found their programs interesting, but also found them almost
completely useless for me because it turned out that they had little to offer
to me that I didn't already know -- and in one case I actually had information
that the person I was dealing with didn't have!

   If you are willing to pay the money to organizations like Weight Watchers,
and if you can lose weight using their program, more power to you. Since I
never believed in putting down anyone else's religion, I wish you well. I would
thank you, however, not to trivialize my principles before you know what they
are.

Referencing 893.124 (Lisa):

   Actually, your experience parallels my own. One technique I used early in my
diet was to restrict my foods to very specific ones, then to allow myself
certain days where I could eat whatever I wanted. In less than a month my
snacking/eating habits changed drastically because not only was my body less
able to process "bad" foods, but I found myself avoiding them because they
simply didn't taste very good anymore. This is one of the effects of my
principles that I had intended to discuss in this Topic.


   I have watched and waited and have determined that there is insufficient
interest to warrent the effort of describing my dieting principles in this
Topic. In fact, I have further determined that it may even be counter-
productive for me to do so since this Topic had deteriorated to the degree that
it did before 893.190. there is no guarantee that it won't deteriorate again,
and I do not feel like cutting up intolerant people this month.

   In a Notesfile where people are supposed to respect differences, there is
something seriously wrong when a moderator has to ask for an end to "back- and-
forth jabs" in a Topic intended as a place to share information about effective
dieting!

                                                     -Robert Brown III

    Oh cut the BS...I was responding to what you *said*.  If your program
    has aspects which you didn't mention in your note, I can't possibly
    have responded to them - nor do I feel any obligation to try and
    anticipate your hidden agendas.  What I said still stands true.
    
    D!

    
    I don't see in this string of notes anything to warrant bickering from
    any participants. Telling people their diets are "insert derogatory
    term here" is not awfully constructive.
    
    I for one would be interested in knowing more about Roger's diet, but
    if he is going to get a lot of flack for describing it, he may not want
    to enter it here.
    
    I don't believe any diet, good as it may be, works for everybody, which
    is why other people's diets may bring something relevant to the
    discussion.
    
    Roger, if you feel you can take the time to write a description of
    your diet and send it by mail to the people interested, I would
    certainly like to get it. 
    
    Joana
    
    vaxmail: SHIRE::BIZE or A1 mail Joana Bize @GEO
    

    I don't see in this string of notes anything to warrant bickering from
    any participants. Telling people their diets are "insert derogatory
    term here" is not awfully constructive.

Heh heh.

Did you read the note referenced? The "insert derogatory term" was
"standard good sense diet."

I wish people would use such derogatory terms on *me* more often!

D!

    
    that doesn't surprise me.
    
    I know many men who can lose weight (10 pounds in two weeks, in some
    cases) by just cutting out snacks (and they're not heavy snackers,
    either!).
    
    The metabolisms seem entirely different, and part of that is men's
    higher general body percentage of muscle.....but I've got lots of
    muscle and it's still tough....
    
    -Jody

In my nutrition classes they told us "men lose weight easier and faster than
women do, get used to it, life isn't fair". So much for equal rights. :*) liesl

> In my nutrition classes they told us "men lose weight easier and faster than
> women do, get used to it, life isn't fair".
    
    Gee... that's news to THIS man 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    --jim
    

    Well I don't know about *easier* - how easy a diet is seems to depend
    more on the psychological make-up of the person dieting than hir
    physical make-up, or the diet.  Fast, *definitely*.  Not fair. Life's a
    bitch.
    
    D!

Referencing 893.202 and 893.204 ("D!"):

   Had you given any real consideration to what was said in my previous entry
893.201, you might have had some understanding of what it was about your entry
893.116 that I found offensive. It is even possible that your replies to me and
Joana might have been a bit less insensitive. You might even have...

   Naaaah!
 
   I forget who I am dealing with here.

Referencing 893.203 (Joana):

   I am way ahead of you. Since it is against my policy (towards members of
this or any conference) to deny information to anyone who sincerely asks for
it, I have already made a list of the people who have specifically requested my
information. You and they will be receiving MAIL as soon as I complete the
first part.

   Your description of my reasons for not entering this information in this 
conference is completely accurate. As you have seen from "D!"'s reply to my 
previous entry as well as her reply to yours, it is clear that not only 
did she trivialize what I already entered here converning the diet, but she 
is unwilling to even acknowledge the possibibility that she did!

   Unfortunately, I have found this to be a consistant pattern with "D!".

   Add to that Ann Broonhead's "Caveat" (893.205), which in the context of this
discussion I interpret as a "nice" way of saying that my diet information
probably wouldn't be very useful to women because I am male. It simply isn't
worth the effort to share my principles here -- especially since to give the
information that I had planned would have required multiple large entries to
this Topic.

   So to reiterate: your description of what motivated my decision is
completely accurate. Since you expressed interest, however, you will be
receiving something from me soon.

                                                      -Robert Brown III

    I would appreciate it if you would not put my name in "quotes".  D! is
    just fine.  If you don't like it, then Diana or D are also quite fine. 
    I don't like being treated like a fictional character, thankyou.
    
    Your snide remarks are also unwelcome, but I won't bother asking you to
    change *that*.
    
    D!

Re: .210

Robert, do you go out of your way to note in a superciliously aggressive
manner, or is it your natural tone of finger?  Either way, I don't like
it any better than D!, whom I respect even when I disagree vehemently
with what she says.  Would that your notes conveyed an appearance of
anything other than snide condescension toward those with whom you
don't see eye to eye.

-d

Referencing 893.212 ("-d"):

   Since my supposed "condescension" in this Topic was a reaction to some 
belittling and unnecessary insensitive remarks directed towards me, then I find 
your entire reply irrelevant.

Referencing 893.211:

   Frankly, I did not realize that putting quotes around your signature was so 
insulting to you. I am quite willing to show you respect by removing them 
(and curbing the "snide remarks") in the future -- provided that in the future
your entries directed towards me show more tolerance and respect for
differences.

                                                       -Robert Brown III