Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I confess that your base-note leaves me wondering if you have any
    unmentioned agenda, but I'll play it straight:
    
    Your attraction for 'see[ing] two pretty women grapple' in mud, jello,
    whipped cream, et al. is _very_ common. [as even a casual reading of
    this file would indicate, not to mention the visibility of such on
    cable channels and 'clubs' with weak sugary drinks]
    
    Personally, I don't like _any_ wrestling as portrayed in the media; and
    I find the addition of slippery substances such as mud to be
    particularly degrading and disturbing.
    
      Annie
    
    

    
    Weeeell, Patrick, whatever floats your boat....
    
    >Now how do you women think of these sexy, nude or semi-nude, mud-,
    >jello-, cream- fighting women out there ?
    
    This doesn't usually even cross my peripheral vision.
    However, as you ask....
    I think it's extremely silly.
    I think the promoters are creating/exploiting a market.
    
    I suspect you're respresentative of the market.
    
    'gail
    
    

    I find it stupid.  And degrading to women.
    
    Tammi

    Equally stupid for performers and audience...
    degrading to both
    
    Ana
    

	I class it in the same realm as mens wrestling, Charlie Chaplin, and
	Laural and Hardy.    

	It's all show, posing, make-beleive, and slightly silly.

	Heather

    I was at a mostly-men's college and they hired 6 women to come out to
    the college and jello wrestle with the men of the school.  The women
    were pretty vicious.  They obviously enjoyed making the men look silly
    because they KNEW how to wrestle in Jello (a la "Stripes", the movie).
    
    I think they looked pretty silly doing it, though.
    
    I think it was pretty degrading to everyone, participants and viewers.
    
    -Jody

unbelief.

eyn li savlanut lishmoa le chara kaze.

Sara

    I'm with the majority here so far - I think it's very degrading both
    to the wrestler's themselves and the viewers.  I guess I don't under-
    stand what would posses someone to even want to participate in the
    first place.
    
     -HA

    Wrestling of this type is a form of pornography as far as I'm
    concerned that I have no interest in at all. Just another form
    of exploitation. Good fodder for another note though.
    
    I think this guy is just jumping in here to try and push some
    hot buttons to arouse the conferees.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

re: .7

Li eyn gam ken! Eyn l'gvarim al mah chashuv lachshov?


Bobbi "deadlines speak many languages" Fox

Ma she sipartach, gam chashavti.  Bidiyuk.

Eze hafta'a, she at mevina oti!!!! 

but we'd better stop now, we're being rude....

My apologies, friends.

Sara

    I think mud/jello/et all, wrestling is very degrading.  
    I also believe it's another form of ponography.  It's
    a fact that dirt rags play on the fantasy that men 
    get off when 2 women are together sexually.  I believe 
    this is another form of that fantasy under the guise of
    sport.
    
    The base even says "I admit that I feel turned on when
    I see two pretty women grapple and fight..."  I think
    their is a hidden agenda...
    
    Heidi

    Re .0
    
    >I think this guy is just jumping in here to try and push some
    >hot buttons to arouse the conferees.
    
    Well, he failed.
    I'm not aroused.
    ;-)
    
    'gail

    
    > Let the insults begin....
    
    Yawn.
    Can't be bothered, to be honest...

    Well, personally I enjoy wrestling in large quantities of Chocolate
    Mousse with a variety of small salamanders and larger lizards (gila
    monsters, kimodo dragons, and alligators), but the SPCA frowned on my
    habit so I can only write about these fantasies to
    rec.arts.lizard-lovers.
    
    ;)
    
    -Jody
    

    I think female wrestling is stupid, degrading and pornographic, too, so
    I guess I agree with the majority answering.
    
    I, also, find male wrestling to be a big turn-off and can't comprehend
    why anyone would be entertained by it, regardless of how popular it is. 
    I have better things to do with my time.
    
    Lorna
    

    Yup, it's porno.  Fun for some, boring for some, disgusting for some.
    I might enjoy wrestling, I wouldn't enjoy watching... 
    
    D! who was always frustrated that there was no "real" women's wrestling
    because that was clearly my sport

    
    
    I guess I just don't understand all this "degrading" stuff.
    
    If a person makes the free choice to do it, if it's something they
    enjoy doing, and it's something they do well, then what should it
    matter?
    
    The people that aren't interested in it, won't watch it, and the people
    that are, will.  It's as simple as that.  Everyone is different, and
    everyone is better at different things.  I believe a person (a WOMAN)
    should be commended for using the talents that she has.....and for
    desiring to be the best she can be....no matter what those talents are.
    
    How do I personally feel?  "Whatever floats your boat.  If you like it,
    go for it."
    
    What disappoints me SO much lately is all the comments that seem to me
    to say, "Women, it's 'bad' to want make use of your beauty and your
    attractive qualities as part of your portfolio of what you're capable
    of.  Women should strive to excell in traditionally male roles,
    because that is where true acceptance and 'goodness' are."
    
    Why are beauty, looks, sexually, physical attributes 'lower' on the
    scale than all other qualities that women possess???????  Why must be
    deny ourselves an entire well-rounded repetoire of qualities?
    
    Is Christina Applegate's (sp?) portrayal of Kelly Bundy on Married With
    Children degrading to women?  Even after you find out that she's a very
    intelligent woman who's been admitted to an Ivy League school?
    
    Why do we fall for the VERY thing that we fight so hard to change?
    
    kath

    re.19
    
    kath,
    
    the basenoter ask 'how do you [women] feel?'  Thus far, I've seen that
    addressed.  
    
    just to be sure, I went back through the responses to date. I didn't
    see anyone in expressly in favour of removing the choice of either
    being a lady-wrestler covered in mud and/or jello or of watching same.
    
    what is it you do not understand?  I can express why _I_ find it
    distasteful fairly clearly.  I would not like to be smeared in
    chocolate sauce and asked to grapple with another woman for the
    vicarious sexual enjoyment of third parties.  I would feel very much at
    risk.  
    
    you would be quite correct in saying that I was projecting my
    own feeling of distaste and fear onto others when I express these
    feelings.  you would be utterly and absolutely _in_correct if you were
    to say that I condemn woman who mud-wrestle because I find it
    distasteful.
    
      Annie

    .20 I agree.  I interperted the base note as asking what I thought.
    
    .19 I also believe that if women want to mud wrestle, go for it.
        I also see nothing wrong with using beauty as an asset.  Men
        use there good looks and grooming as an asset to their success.
    
    I also feel the same way about men wrestlers.  Even though I've never
    heard of men mud wrestling.  I do believe it's another form of porn-
    ogrpahy, big strong guy, muscles rippling, etc....
    
    Heidi

    
    My room mate does this for a living.  That and go-go dancing at a
    strip joint.
    
    I've seen her dance and I don't think it's degrading...I think it's
    using what you've got to the best advantage--she's gorgeous.
    
    It bothers me that most people think these women are dumb bimbo's
    who couldn't possibly get another job.  Most are putting themselves
    through college, mothers, and other normal people who enjoy making
    a good living.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

I'm not sure I understand the concept of "using what you have to
best advantage" and mud-wrestling.  Seems quite a stretch to say
that crawling around in the mud naked fighting with another 
human being and having people watch and even cheer this on, 
is actually using your goddess-given talents to best advantage -- 
what, a special in-born talent for mud wrestling?  

Maybe treating each other with dignity is too much to expect...

	MKV

    um, L.J.
    
    did anyone here in this note say that they thought women who
    wrestle in mud or jello or chocolate pudding are 'dumb bimbos'
    
    I didn't see that in the notes I just read, maybe it was deleted?
    
    Bon

    
    I don't think L.J. was saying that anyone in _here_ said that women
    who wrestle in <gooey_substance> are dumb bimbos; certainly no one's
    said this (nor even implied it) in any of the responses.  I think it's
    a peripheral issue that s/he perhaps hears about from hir roommate.
    
    CQ

    I agree with almost all of these notes I don't find anything
    exciting about wrestling in mud,jello, etc.  Its just not
    feminine to me. But the not everyone likes the same thing
    as another person. 

    
    Professional Wrestling is sports entertainment. It is not pornography. 
    If you think it is, please seek professional help. Better yet, don't
    watch it. Professional women wrestlers are a very special kind of
    athlete. If you don't believe it, get in the ring with one. Try
    really watching it for once instead of putting it down.
    
    As far as wrestling in some kind of subtance goes, it's an extreme
    form of sports entertainment but pornography? I think you take life 
    too seriously. No clothes are shed. I'd like to see this allegation
    proven.
    
    /prc

>     <<< Note 826.20 by RUTLND::JOHNSTON "myriad reflections of my self" >>>
>                    -< I can accept without understanding >-
>
>    re.19
>    
>    kath,
>    
>    the basenoter ask 'how do you [women] feel?'  Thus far, I've seen that
>    addressed.  
?    
>    just to be sure, I went back through the responses to date. I didn't
>    see anyone in expressly in favour of removing the choice of either
>    being a lady-wrestler covered in mud and/or jello or of watching same.
    

  1. Many of the replies have called this behaviour pornographic.

  2. Many replies in other notes have stated that pornography (what
     "they" define as pornography) should be banned.


  If even one person simultaneously holds both View 1 and View 2, that
  person is implicitly calling for the banishment of this behaviour.
  Please note that I'M NOT ARGUING THAT any of the replies (or repliers)
  so far have held both Views 1 and 2, but I bet there are some folks
  here who do, and I'm certain there are folks out in the larger world
  who do.

                                   Atlant

  >1. Many of the replies have called this behaviour pornographic.

  >2. Many replies in other notes have stated that pornography (what
  >   "they" define as pornography) should be banned.
    
    Just to be perfectly clear...
    
    I think jello-wrestling et al is pornography.
    
    I have also stated many, many times (right, Dorian?) that
      1) I don't think pornography is bad
      2) I don't differentiate between pornography and erotica
    
    The last point means that, perhaps, I should have referred to watching
    jello-wrestling as "erotica", since to me it means the same thing and
    it would have imflamed fewer people.
    
    Basically, it falls into the sme category as watching semi-nude dancers
    in bars.  
    
    D!

    
    - .1
    
    D!, you've said it so many times, it's becoming positively
    pornographic!
    
    Too bad I'm right ...  ;-)
    
    D.

    
    
    >Maybe treating each other with dignity is too much to expect...
    
    Maybe being allowed to do what you want to do with your own body and
    your own talents with dignity and without being harrassed and putdown
    for making your own choices for yourself is too much to expect.....
    
    
    kath

    Kath, you wanna mud wrassle, you go RIGHT ahead.
    
    I may not cheer, but I certainly wouldn't harass you for your choice.
    
    I feel feminism is about CHOICES, and being able to make ANY choice you
    want.  I personally may not want to do it, and may have feelings about
    it, but when push comes to shove, it is ANY PERSON'S choice to do what
    they wish with their body.
    
    You have felt in the past that womanspace is silly and useless, I feel
    that women mudwrestling is exploitative and degrading.  Can I say what
    I feel in such a way as to take the sting out?  I own my language as
    often and thoroughly as I can, and often feel you put me in a bucket
    called "womannotes" and label me "bad".
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    > You have felt in the past that womanspace is silly and useless, 
    
    Just a nit, Jody....  As I remember it, I said that *I* would feel
    silly in certain womanspace situations, so I avoid them.  Those
    situations are ones where the reason for the womanspace was because
    only women's opinions were sought on certain subjects (as opposed to
    just hanging out and enjoying womenspace....which I feel isn't silly
    to me, nor is it useless for me).
    
    I recognize how important that kind of womenspace is to others, and I
    have no desire to trivialize their need for that space.  I just don't
    feel the same need for me.
    
    I just wanted to clear that up....just because I feel a certain way FOR
    ME, doesn't mean I intend to project that onto other in an attempt to
    trivialize their needs.
    
    I just wanted to clarify your comment because it was wrong...that is
    NOT how I feel.
    
    kath

    
    Dumb, stupid, exploitive, and panders to the *lowest* common
    denominator.
    
    Jamd

         Thought about keeping quiet, decided to say a little.
    
         Two months ago I decided to do something I'd never done...I
    went to watch "oil wrestling" (at Zapp's, in Campbell, Ca.)  Though there
    is a totally nude dance establishement close by, I've never been there
    (though I once knew a woman who stripped there.)  Nor have I ever gone to
    see any of these types of things (except once about 18 years ago, with
    my then-wife.)  So, out of curiosity, and to see what I was "missing,"
    I went.  Once in ($5,) I never spent a dime (actually, I'd forgotten to
    go with any money...but I probably wouldn't have done anything except
    drink something, anyway...:-}  )
          The whole thing is definitely a "scam" to make money for the
    women.  All six women were quite physically beautiful, several appeared
    to be silicone-enhanced.  For two hours, they danced around individually
    on stage (as they were individually introduced) and then made money
    by going around all the tables (well over 200 men, no women in that
    audience except bar-maids) and dancing "on" or "to" a man (the audience
    was instructed not to touch them, but to put their money in their
    mouths, shirts, ears, etc. so that the women could "extract" it.) 
    So, for a minimum of $5, the woman would dance up to a guy, "bump"
    him (if he was "lucky") and take his money--put there of his own
    volition or, in lots of cases, placed there by a friend.  
         Finally, the main event...two sets of women wrestled each other.
    But to set it up, they had to be sprayed with oil (baby oil and water
    combination, based on the spray that landed on me...;-} .)  For this,
    the audience was allowed to bid for "spraying rights."  Two or three
    guys paid $20 each for this "thrill."  The highlight of the spraying
    came as each female (who was writhing and dancing around as she was 
    sprayed) spred her legs wide while everyone cheered her being sprayed
    in that location.  (There was no nudity or even toplessness allowed...
    none is allowed in Campbell, although these dancers *Do* perform topless
    in other locales.)  After this, the women "wrestled" each other for
    two or three 2-3 minute rounds.  Everyone cheered their favorite while
    the women "mocked" anger at each other, etc.
         I left, another experience the richer.  Would I go again?  I don't
    think so.  Once is enough.  I felt sorry for lots of those people, on 
    both sides.  Too bad that the women see men as nothing but walking ATM's,
    too bad that so many men are so deprived of female sexuality or
    companionship or whatever that they have to go pay for it this way.
    On the other hand, superficially at least, everyone seemed to have a 
    good time.  The men certainly appreciated the women.  The women smiled
    a great deal and really seemed to enjoy being the "object" of the men's
    attention.  Is this degrading?  Are Chippendale's (men dancers)
    degrading to men?  I don't know.  All I know for myself is that I
    don't need it.  I would like to believe that each person has to decide
    this for him/herself, being as aware as possible as to what the impact
    is, not only on themselves, but on others.  
    
    Frederick
    

    "see men as nothing but walking ATM's"
    
    Lucky you, Frederick, to live in California.  Here in Massachusetts,
    the ATMs no longer dispense five dollar bills.
    
    							Ann B.

    And now ATMs really do walk, or at least there was a picture in
    the Globe this morning of the ground where an ATM was sitting until
    it apparently walked away...with a little help from would be bank
    robbers.
    	Linda

    
    
    > Lucky you, Frederick, to live in California.  Here in Massachusetts,
    >    the ATMs no longer dispense five dollar bills.
    
    Sure they do!
    
    Just last week I went to go buy Indigo Girls' tickets at the
    Ticketmaster in Greendale Mall (Worcester).  Ticket sales are cash
    only, so I went to the bank machine to extract $100.  
    
    I got $100 alright....*ALL* in $5 bills.
    
    
    kath

Hi,

pffiuuh,

what a bunch of reactions. My turn to give some further comments, I assume.

First of all let me state that I agree with most of your notes; yes, no
kidding; <gooey-stuff>-wrestling -- female or male -- is one form of
pornography ! 
Now whether pornography is to be banned ... difficult question without a proper
answer even from the psychanalysts.

Let me also respond to the personal attacks that went with numerous comments.
I understood that deontology would not allow such reactions ? Well, nevermind.
The story, of course, was made up, the only truth being that I'm married.
Jim, in note .9, came very close to the purpose of all this : get strong 
reactions ! My story had to be extreme in order to get also true outbursts of
your feelings. It proved to work !
(I sometimes use this technique in meetings to get people's commitments - and
it works there as well).

Nevertheless thank you very much for your comments.
Patrick

    Are you happy now that you've played your little game, had your little
    laugh?
    
    You can leave now.
    
    D!

    I'm so pleased I'm not priveledged to work with you.  I don't think I
    could trust any coworker who deliberately antagonizes people as you
    brag of doing.  Doesn't fit in the Digital I have  worked in these 12
    years.
    
    I don't appreciate it in this file either.  Close the door on your way
    out, eh?
    
    Sara

    G'Day,
    
    	I light of .39 I think the mods should do a 'delete note 826.*'. 
    That way this fool's mumblings wont bother anybody else!
    
    David.
    

    
    Check out Annie's first sentence in .1.  We should all trust our guts
    more often.
    
    CQ

    This reminds me kind of like a game my children used to play...
    
    One would say something like 'your fly is open' or 'you have 
    something on your pants'.... the other would look down and the
    first kid would reply something like 'made you look, made you
    look... " with great glee.
    
    These tactics strike me as being far more appropriate to the
    grade school class room than the business environment.
    
    Bonnie

re: .39
    
>The story, of course, was made up, the only truth being that I'm married.
>Jim, in note .9, came very close to the purpose of all this : get strong 
>reactions ! My story had to be extreme in order to get also true outbursts of
>your feelings. It proved to work !
    
    Well, gee, I hope your wife understands when you pull this s#it on her! 
    
    However, when someone in this file introduces themselves with a certain
    "tone" or attitude, it's hard for them to shake it later.  Don't be
    surprised if many people here tend not to take your opinions seriously
    or offer you a great degree of credibility in the future.  
    
    You have burned a wonderful, giving, supportive bridge before you had a
    chance to cross it into the truly connective community it led to.
    
    My sympathies.
    
    -Jody
    

    .29, D!
    
    You don't differentiate between pornography and erotica?
    How interesting.  Seems to me the former has a negative
    connotation, while the former should be positive.
    
    Agreed, both pornography and erotica are subjective, and
    what's pornographic to some may be erotic to others, and
    vice versa.
    
    In this example, if women were somehow forced against
    their wills to wrestle for the entertainment of others,
    that would be pornographic.
    
    Consenting adults wrestling for money could be erotic to some
    (see base note), and while I wouldn't care to watch,
    and feel it's degrading, I don't have the right
    to tell women not to do it, or tell men not to enjoy watching
    it.
    
    Richard

    >You don't differentiate between pornography and erotica?
    >    How interesting.  Seems to me the former has a negative
    >    connotation, while the former should be positive.
     
    "Should"?  What does that mean.
    
    >Agreed, both pornography and erotica are subjective, and
    >    what's pornographic to some may be erotic to others, and
    >    vice versa.
     
    Exactly the point.  There is no absolute definition of "erotic" vs.
    "pornographic".  Therefore I don't distinguish.  Basically, pornography
    is a word that people apply to things *they* don't like, erotic they
    apply to things they *do* like.  But when we are discussing legalities,
    etc, personal preferences are meaningless, therefore I don't see a
    distinction.  To quote the notorious Harry Ugol "If I like it it's
    erotica; if you like it, it's pornography."
    
    >In this example, if women were somehow forced against
    >    their wills to wrestle for the entertainment of others,
    >    that would be pornographic.
     
    The act of forcing a woman to do something sexual that she doesn't want
    to is rape.
    
    The resulting pictures/movies, regardless of the method that was used
    to produce them, is pornography/erotica.  
        
    >Consenting adults wrestling for money could be erotic to some
    >    (see base note), and while I wouldn't care to watch,
    >    and feel it's degrading, I don't have the right
    >    to tell women not to do it, or tell men not to enjoy watching
    >    it.       
    
    No, you don't, and niether do I or anyone else.
    
    What's your point?
    
    D!

    My point is that I think eroticism does not equal
    pornography. They are two distinct entities, subjective
    I admit, but different, nonetheless.  (without looking, I'd
    guess there's a topic in this conference that's more appropriate
    for the discussion).
    
    Of course it's a matter of opinion, and I don't presume
    to expect you to change your mind.  I wanted to give
    my take on it, that's all.
    
    Richard 

    re: .47
    
    D!,
    
    I don't think Richard was trying to make a point as such but just used
    your reply as a bouncing board to state hsi views.  Maybe I got this
    all wrong but you seemed to see his note as confrontation which I din't
    read into it at all.  Just IMO.
    
    For what it's worth, I find ALL wrestling amusing.  They all look so
    stupid but if they want to do it and others like and watch it that's
    their business.

    RE: wrestling in general - I watch it occasionally.  I look upon it as
    a form of low comedy.  These people really are very funny.  It is an
    interesting show to me, made more so by trying to figure out in advance
    whether or not the "good guy" is supposed to win this one.
    
    RE: exotic dancing, and other erotica -- I used to make it a point,
    when in a new city, to find and visit the better places with exotic
    dancers (don't ask me why, it is too complicated to explain).  Among my
    observations:
    
    1) It was unpleasant and degrading to me when there was either:
    	a) and element of force - once in San Diego one of the dancers
    	seemed a bit young to me.  When she finally got up to dance, I
    could see that she was very uncomfortable and unhappy (she looked as if
    she was going to cry).  It really bothered me and I left (actually,
    haven't been to such a place since, now that I think about it).  I had
    not gone 20 feet down the sidewalk when the police raided that place.
    
    	b) The dancers were bored and/or uninterested.  Basically, the
    people there were doing it because they couldn't find a better way to
    make money (in Biloxi Mississippi there is little else).
    
    2) I had a great time in Toronto and a number of other places (which
    were almost as good) because the women were having fun.  They did not
    just get on stage and gyrate, the music was risque, and the act was
    entertaining and well thought out.  That was erotica (IMHO).  
    
    The other was just degrading and I was degraded.
    
    Then again, I've had a glimpse of ladies night at the Golden Banana. 
    Men rarely get as rowdy or seem to be having as much fun as those women
    were.
    
    What's the point.  Who knows?  Just thot I'd share some observations
    that were real.
    
    Now I'm gonna go hide at the bottom of the floatation tank where the
    flames can't reach me.
    
    jimc
    

Wrestling, when done by amateur athletes for real competitive purposes,
is a superb demonstration of physical skill and strength.  I really like
watching college and Olympic wrestling; I have a great fondness for
Greco-Roman wrestling, in which grips below the waist are not allowed.

"Wrestling" as it is practiced by Hulk Hogan and his ilk, is performance
pure and simple.  My father always differentiated between the two things
by referring to the latter as rasslin'.  I think it's abysmally stupid,
and I don't pay it any heed except to avoid it if it happens to intrude
into my awareness.

Slippery-substance rasslin' is in my opinion one step down from Hogan
and his crowd; I see it as exploitation for prurient purposes.  I've
seen only brief moments of it, on TV and so on, and I cannot imagine
any healthily-sexed man who would want to watch it.  But that is *my*
opinion, and others, male and female, are entitled to differ.

-d