Conference turris::womannotes-v2

re: 703.2 ('Ren Foster)
    -------------------
>   But in the context of engineering, every female engineer is aware that
>   the entire TONE of the engineering field is very male.
 
One example -  On two different occasions, I've been asked some variation of
               this question by a male technoid-type:

"So why don't you be a *real* engineer and wear jeans and a flannel shirt?"

		[as opposed to a skirt or dress]

Anybody have any good replies (witty or otherwise) for this question?

							nancy b. 

    No, no, no - you've been terribly misled! It isn't "wear jeans instead
    of a skirt," it's "wear jeans instead of dressing up" - guys who show
    up in suits tend to get the same comments. (I've even done it myself,
    though - being a mannerly person most of the time - my remarks were
    limited to "Oh, are you interviewing?")
    
    Besides, I didn't think jeans and flannel shirts were sexist; I thought
    they were a reasonable form of dress during New England (or Wyoming)
    winters... or in air-conditioned computer rooms!
    
    Seriously, though - I know there are places/jobs/whatever with
    traditional-male "tone", but my experiences at DEC (and, for that
    matter, at all of my previous jobs) have indicated that there's a lot
    less of it in the computer field. (Caveat: I have usually hung out with
    software engineers; it may be different in the world of hardware,
    although those H/E's I know seem just as reasonable as anybody else!)
    
    -b (whose opinion may not be too reliable, as she has admitted in
    writing to liking "Misfits of Science"...)

    Re witty remarks: Dunno whether someone who made such a crack would
    appreciate a really witty remark. While this sort of thing seldom
    happens to me (I haven't worn a skirt to work since 1979), the first
    things that came to mind were: 
    
    1. Contrive a pained expression and stammer, "D-d-don't you _like_ it?"
    And then stare at him.
    
    2. Say, "Why, thank you!" as if he'd just complimented your taste, and
    hope he takes the hint.
    
    3. Say, "I had my colors done and I just _can't_ wear denim. Say - have
    you considered something in mauve?"
    
    4. Smile, say nothing, and manage to become project leader - of his
    project.
    
    -b

    The easiest way I've found is to not take dress codes to seriously.  My
    dress ranges from ratty old sneakers, jeans, and a cas' shirt all the
    way, like yesterday,  to full suit, red "power" tie, and suspenders. 
    Can't tell sometimes whether I'm a management weinie or a down and dirty
    engineer.  Its interesting because I act very differently depending how
    I'm dressed, which is pretty amusing.

    re: .1
    
    One possible answer to the question, "So why don't you be a *real* 
    engineer and wear jeans and a flannel shirt?" might be:

    Because *I'm* going to be successful engineering *manager*. . .perhaps
    *you* should wear a dress or skirt. . .
    
    Steve

 I rarely wear 'nice' clothes at work anymore. I wore a tie once, and was told
that I wouldn't get any support if anything happened to my machine! They were
mostly joking, but it still had an effect. As it turns out, I am most 
comfortable wearing jeans and a t-shirt anyway. Sometimes I still dress up
a little more (like yesterday). 

 "Why don't you dress like a real engineer and wear jeans and a flannel shirt?"

 "Because I do what I want."

 "Because I don't have to wear a 'uniform.'"

 "Cuz this is what I feel like wearing."

 "Because you are not my boss."

 The Doctah

    I dressed in jeans and a flannel shirt when I was being a hardware
    tech in high school....I didn't know that was how engineers dressed,
    too...
    
    In college I wore flannel and cords and sneakers....
    
    Now I wear button-downs and cords and sneakers....
    
    I dress for function, not for show....and I honestly think that
    *you* should be comfy with how you dress....

    -Jody
    

    re.Nancy
    
    the last time I was asked [in a previous technical incarnation] why I
    didn't wear jeans I responded 'because when my crotch sweats the
    seams chafe and my thighs bleed.'
    
    it wasn't witty, but I didn't hear the question again from _anyone_ for
    the next three years.
    
    re.this industry not having uniforms
    
    horse-pucky!!
    
    Instead of jeans I was wearing comfortable non-confining clothing with
    a distinctly ethnic flavour.  I was _never_ asked why I was dressed up. 
    I was always asked why I wasn't wearing jeans.  I wasn't wearing the
    uniform...I wasn't conforming... Engineers tell me they dress for
    comfort, hence the jeans.  Great.  Many women are comfortable in jeans.
    I find them binding, confining and chafing...no I don't wear them too
    tight...so I dressed for comfort and got called for being out of
    uniform.  It didn't find it upsetting; but thats because I found it
    so amusing.
    
      Ann

    
    RE: .1
    Hi Nancy, I don't have any witty answers for your question.
    
    But, what are the *Engineers* day-to-day functions ??
    Surely if I were getting-down-and-dirty I would not
    come to work my normal GQ self
    
    Dress for the task at hand, just like at home...
    riding the lawn mover - shorts/jeans
    fixing the plumbing - something already near worn out
    
    I personally see work in the same light.
    If I'm giving a presentation/demo,etc - GQ
    If I'm doing an install - Jeans
    
    --Christopher

    Shortly after I started, I attended a non-disclosure session with a
    customer that took place in ZK.  I, being a software specialist, had to
    wear "professional" clothes (a skirt and, worst of all, heels).  An
    engineer came in to answer some questions.  He was dressed in jeans,
    t-shirt and sneakers.  My skirt and heels were my badge of credibility;
    his jeans were his badge of credibility.
    
    Fortunately, I don't deal with customers *all* the time and I usually
    get to wear jeans and sneaks myself.

    Don't take as sexist
    
    Next time they ask "why don't you wear jeans" 
    
    answer
    
    "because my legs look better than yours" 8)

Funny though the DB article in .0 is, it is nowhere near as funny as the books
by Molloy it refers to. Borrow them from an enemy and give them back.

	Andrew.

    
    re .10
    
    Yeah, those customers have got their nerve...
    
    Guess CSC isn't abusing them enough, what with them showing
    up in person (good G*d I hope no one told them anything..)..

    Re: .14
    
    Who says I work for CSC?

                -< It's easy. They're pretty low down! >-
    
    Nancy,
    
    I think that Ms. Manners' suggestion for rude remarks will work
    in your situation. She recommends saying "How kind of you to say
    so!" and then walking away when someone makes an unkind comment.
    
    This is not being rude in return, but it gets the point across.
    It also works wonderfully. 
    
    Eileen

	re: .12 (Stephen Piersall)
	    ----------------------
	>    Don't take as sexist
	>    Next time they ask "why don't you wear jeans"
	>    answer

	>    "because my legs look better than yours" 8)

	Hey, you set me up!

	...  'Cuz he replies "Then why don't you wear shorts like me?"

	ooooh, ouch!!!

	That's OK, Stephen.  Don't feel too bad about it.

	You couldn't have known that with the weather these wimpy
	New Englanders are calling "summer", that the "real" engineers
	are now walking around the Mill in shorts ... and that the
	slogan on the white board lately has been :

 	             "Ken says 'Shorts are Cool!'"
                                                          :-)
  	                                                  nancy b.

    Okay nancy I left myself open, but shorts leave nothing to the imanagition

re: .18 (Stephen Piersall)
    ----------------------

Stephen, *I* don't complain when *they* wear shorts :-) !!!

I actually appreciate that there is a wide range of dress 
that is acceptable at Digital.

re: dress for practicality suggestions
    ----------------------------------

Dressing for work in the Mill does require some practical 
modifications, as setting up and taking down local networks 
and systems requires occasionally crawling around on hardwood 
floors, as well as scaling the rafters to string thinwire, 
thickwire, TLIs, power bus extensions, etc...

If I were to dress for *total* comfort and practicality, I'd wear:


        a.k.a   -< How *not* to dress for business >-	

o white & grey Reebok hightops with pink shoelaces, unlaced at the
  top, of course (because it's cool, mon :-) !
o my Roger Rabbit tee-shirt that has Roger loudly proclaiming 
  "I'm Innocent!" (my statement to the world) that almost hits my knees 
o a loud pair of Jams that are also long enough so that it's clear
  I *am* wearing something under the tee-shirt :-).

This way I wouldn't have to change before going to play basketball
at Maynard High School during lunch!

Though I might get frostbitten in these labs with shorts on.  In the
summertime it only gets colder, too.  I don't know how the guys can
wear shorts in the lab for any amount of time. 

							nancy b.

    Hey nancy can i have your job.I have to do the same things and the
    um's would like me to wear suits. I have more torn shirts and pants
    than I can count the field is verrrry hard on clothes