Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    That is wild! 
    
    Years ago, one of my friends worked all winter "getting into shape"
    as she referred to her already terrific shape, and when summer came,
    went out to buy that itsy-bitsy-little-bikini.  Well, we all traipsed
    to the beach - she in her yellow bikini, the rest of us cowards
    in what was very obviously hip-covering skirted swimsuits with the
    god-awful padded bras which *never* did anything for me but get
    pushed in and never popped out because there wasn't anything to
    put into them in the first place -- 
    
    And after we got tired of baking and oiling ourselves, decided to
    go swimming.  Well, to make a long story short, the top of the bikini
    came undone, got washed out to sea, and poor friend now is stranded
    covering her upper half with her hands while we are strangling on
    sea water laughing like h*ll!
    
    M

    I have this theory about 'French-cut' maillots...
    
    They were created at the request of all of those parafin producers
    with stock on hand after electricity became all the rage.
    
    You know I'm right.
    
      Ann

I went out on a limb and bought a bathing suit from LL Bean (the one our
kayakers prefer). And it's _great_! It'll stay on during strokes, the colors
are not dull, and I'm not embarassed about how I look, and I do _not_ have to
sweat the 'bikini area' this season!
	Mez

    Give me a Speedo or a Rose Marie Reid suit any day.  I can't imagine
    how anyone could swim comfortably (mentally or physically) knowing
    that the two-piece they're wearing probably started out as dental-floss
    and designer scraps from the cutting board.  
    
    And often it seems that the smaller the suit is, the more it costs.
    Where's the logic?

    -Jody
    

    I was talking a few weeks ago with someone from France about bathing
    suits.  we got into a discussion on the bathing suits some women in
    Brazil, which is where this one particular style is most famous, wear. 
    She was trying to tell me what they are called in France, but couldn't
    think of an appropriate translation.  I finally told her just to tell
    me the name in French.  She said they are called:
    
    Dental floss

    I just bought a bathing suit Sunday at Quincy Mkt. at Pulse Sport.
     It was horribly expensive but I liked it.  I wear a one piece because
    I have a scar from a C-section and I don't have a flat stomach and
    I hate the way women look in bikinis when they don't have a flat
    stomach and it looks as though they have a pot belly hanging out
    over the bikini bottoms.
    
    Twenty years ago I was afraid to wear a bikini because I didn't
    think I had a good enough figure.  What I did have then that I didn't
    appreciate at the time was a flat stomach, with no scar.  Back then I 
    just felt bad because I didn't have a better body.  Now I'd love to have my
   19 year old body back.  If I could, I would wear a bikini.

    If I did have a great body I would wear a tiny bikini and flaunt
    myself all over the beach!  (Isn't that awful?)  But, as it is I'll
    wear my one piece and hold my stomach in when I remember to.
    
    I hate to see men wear bikini bathing suits.  It embarrasses me.
     I feel like I should avert my eyes.  Usually the men who wear them
    are either too fat or too thin.  (But, then, let's face it, most
    *people* are either too fat or too thin!)
    
    It seems like every summer I feel bad because I don't look like
    a model in the infamous SI Swimsuit issue, but then when I get to
    the beach I see such hideous sights I don't feel so bad any more.
     The average person does look better fully clothed, but, so what,
    we all have the right to feel the sun on our bodies.
    
    Lorna
     

    Thanks for the laugh, Bonnie!
    
    I wear a bathing suit even though my fat analysis( health services)
    test says I could loose a few. 
    
    Kate
    

    The base note *was* written by Dave Barry.
    
    Judi
    

    
    Oh, that was funny!  And when you're a very fair redhead like me
    in a skimpy suit, you get the extra, added bonus of all that 
    tan-resistant WHITE skin exposed, blinding everyone within 10 feet.
    I think we should go back to the days of "bathing costumes", y'know,
    the kind that go down to your knees?  ;-)
    
                             ...Lisa V...
    

    I think that the designers of those charming pieces of scrap material
    and dental floss should be required to eat the damn swim suits!
    

    When I saw the recent LJH issue there was an article on swimsuits,
    titled "I don't want to look fat" Swimsuit Solutions.  There are
    twelve women pictured in bathing suits.  The article points out
    that they asked real women to model for this story, and every one
    thought she would look fat in a swimsuit.  I would guess that every
    one of them is around 5' 6" and weighs between 115 and 130.  None
    of them look fat!
    
    The next page, titled "Please hide my thighs" Shorts Solutions shows
    these same people in baggy long shorts!
    
    Why are women being told that they are fat?  Why are they being
    told that they must hide?
    
    !@#$ this baggage!

    RE .10  And an hour later you're hungry again :-)

>    The article points out
>    that they asked real women to model for this story, and every one
>    thought she would look fat in a swimsuit.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
>    Why are women being told that they are fat?  Why are they being
>    told that they must hide?
    
    It is my impression that many women FEEL fat when they aren't. It is a
    deeply held psychological belief, and cannot be pooh poohed away.
    I look at these articles as not telling women that they are fat,
    rather,they seem to be offering help for women who feel they  are fat.
    It seems to be an attempt to give women that psychological edge by
    showing them fashions that they'd might look good in, modeled by other
    women who feel the same way.
    
    The Doctah

RE:          <<< Note 623.13 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Sad Wings of Destiny" >>>

    It is my impression that many women FEEL fat when they aren't. It is a
    deeply held psychological belief, and cannot be pooh poohed away.

>  And what is the root cause of this?  Can this be related to the
>  discussion on advertizing?

john

    Re: .11
    
    Well, it could be that certain parts of them were fat....
    
    "Fat" can mean a couple of things.  It could mean that the
    circumference at that point is too big.  It could mean that there's
    fat or cellulite at the point.  Even if the dimensions are okay,
    it could be flabby or less-than-firm.  The "proper" look is lean,
    firm, and tanned, after all.

    Re .11, .13, I think that the reason women want to hide and don't
    want to be seen in bathing suits is because most women know they
    don't look like women in Playboy or like Christy Brinkley or Paulina
    in Sports Illustrated's swimsuit issue.  It isn't just a case of
    being fat or thin.  It's a case of how well proportioned you are
    and how your legs and rear end are shaped, etc.  I'm not fat.  I
    weigh 96 lbs. but I don't look great in a bathing suit and I know
    it.  Why should I want a bunch of men looking at me and writing
    me off because I don't have a perfectly proportioned body like Paulina
    or Christy or enormous breasts like the women in Playboy, etc.?
     There's a lot more to looking good in a bathing suit than being
    thin.  Your stomach has to be flat and your chest has to be in
    proportion and like Chelsea said you have to be firm, lean, and
    tanned.  A few supposedly enlightened men come in this file and
    exclaim in wonder about why women are so worried about not looking
    good in a bathing suit.  But, I know the world is full of men
    who really want their dates and wives to look like Christy Brinkley
    or Kim Basinger or Jane Seymour or Paulina, etc., and they will
    never be truly satisfied with the rest of us.  The way a woman looks
    matters more to average men than whether the woman is kind or funny
    or intelligent or talented.  But, it's okay for men to fat, or bald
    or ugly, and as long as they're either nice, or funny or smart or
    rich they'll have tons of women after them.  It's pitiful and unfair,
    and it is partly the fault of advertising and partly the fault of
    the fact that so many men are so shallow.
    
    Lorna
    

Oh Lorna, don't be depressed in a wn lite topic!!!! Anything I can do?
	Mez

    
    I don't even think these French suits look good on anybody. Not even
    Christie Brinkley. Sheila has a very modest one piece suit that
    looks absolutely terrific on her!
    Joe
    

    Re .17, Mez, do you think you could change a few major things about
    the world, people, men, and the planet in general? :-)
    
    If so, then you can probably help me! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    =wn= lite.....
    
    Perhaps a lighter perspective would help---picture in your mind
    all the men you know socially and work related and business and
    world leaders and wealthy tycoons and even rock stars.  Now in your
    mind dress each one in a bikini bathing suit and line them up
    side by side on the beach.  See---some of them are *not* lean
    and firm and tan and shapely. ;)

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in note 607 on cosmetics and 
advertising.

According to an article in last Monday's Boston Globe, 67% of women -- 
*young* women -- feel bad about their bodies, and most feel they're too fat.
But with Big Business having $ billions invested in keeping them feeling
that way, through ads etc., I don't see things changing much. 

It's hard to think lite when you're constantly being made to feel you're 
not...

Also, I noticed the latest issue of Cosmopolitan has provided us with a 
"cleavage update."  It seems the current trend is toward having more of it.
I only skimmed the article, but it tells you all about how to get silicone
implants, so you'll be right in fashion... 

Is this lite or heavy?

Dorian 

>    The way a woman looks
>    matters more to average men than whether the woman is kind or funny
>    or intelligent or talented.  
    
     Perhaps initially, but then, most women who have the qualities you
    describe seem to have their share of men hankering after them.
    
>    But, it's okay for men to fat, or bald
>    or ugly, and as long as they're either nice, or funny or smart or
>    rich they'll have tons of women after them.  
    
     I don't believe that a bit. I know many, many nice guys who have no
    women after them because they are not "dashing, charming or gorgeous."
    I know alot of smart guys who turn women off because they are
    intelligent. I know some funny guys who seem to get more than their
    share of women because they are funny. But the truth is, the guys who
    get the most girls are either gorgeous or rich.
    
>    It's pitiful and unfair,
>    and it is partly the fault of advertising and partly the fault of
>    the fact that so many men are so shallow.      
    
     Quite an indictment of men, there. But that's ok, because alot of men
    feel EXACTLY the same way about women.
    
    The Doctah
    
    ps- Sorry you feel so bad.

>Is this lite or heavy?

Probably depends on your sense of humor. I was able to chuckle about the notion
that one could change cleavage fashion...
	Mez

    
    I have two one piece suits that I wear and any one that knows me knows
    that I am not thin, I am firm and tanned all over :-). If anyone
    objects to the way I look in my swim suit, they may turn there head as
    I pass by.  I have never been thin and I will never be thin, I don't
    even want to be thin. I am trying to take off a few pounds, but never
    do I want to be skinny.  
    
    I don't wear a swim suit to attract attention, I wear it to participate
    in activities that require one.  
    
    +pat+
    

Re:  .16

>    I think that the reason women want to hide and don't want to be seen
>    in bathing suits is because most women know they don't look like women
>    in Playboy or like Christy Brinkley or Paulina in Sports Illustrated's
>    swimsuit issue.

I think Lorna has summarized the essence of this topic very well, and I think
it's a lot less of a "lite" topic than it appears.  Here we have a normal and
(if I may say so) rather attractive woman telling us that she feels embarras-
sed to be seen in public because she doesn't look like Christy Brinkly.  She
may be depressed, but I'm angry (not at you, Lorna).

I don't know Christy Brinkley or Paulina, and I don't know anyone who looks
like either of those people.  I do know women who look quite attractive, and
many of them share Lorna's sense of inadequate looks with respect to beach
attire.  So what do we have here?  It seems to me that the current standard
says that if you are female, it's not OK to be seen on the beach unless you
look like a certain one tenth of a percent of women.  That's absolutely out-
rageous!  Why should public beaches be restricted to women who look like ad-
vertising mannequins?  Why can't I, a man, be able to see (and talk to) some
normal looking women?  Why must normal women hide?

I'm not a perfect physical specimen, either.  But I enjoy going swimming at
the beach, and I haven't seen any law saying that only people who weigh less
than 120 pounds (or 320 pounds, for that matter) are allowed to have fun.  I
won't let a bunch of advertising executives prevent me from enjoying myself.
I would love to see more Womannoters at the beach.  Let the likes of Christy
Brinkley stay in their magazine ads, where they belong!

						--Q (Dick Wagman)

    I have an excuse to be 'fat' on the beach this year; I'm pregnant.
    I was pregnant the exact time of the year with my first baby and
    I still have the same swim suit.  I get most of my stares though,
    when I dig out a hole in the sand for my belly to fit in so that
    I can lay on my stomach.  
    
    I don't like bikinis on men either.  I call them nuthuggers.  
    
    Anna
    

    
     I still remember when my wife bought a "sexy" bathingsuit,
    a one piece, attractive white one. The funny part was when
    she came out of the water and realized that the material
    transforms to a Saran-Wrap transparency when wet.
    
     Talk about the fashion industry having the ultimate laugh,
    swimsuits you can't swim in.
    
    Paul W.

    re .29
    You forget the year they came out with the disposable PAPER "swim"
    suits - you canouldn't get them wet, they were for getting sunburned -
    err, I mean, tanned (*I* get sunburned).
    
    /Charlotte
    
    PS - I wear an LL Bean swimsuit, myself - comes in tall sizes, doesn't
    have the legs cut up to my waist, dries fast, and doesn't have to be
    hand-washed.  I mostly wear it under my wetsuit, though, so it doesn't
    matter much what it actually looks like (if you think you look funny in
    a swimsuit, try a wetsuit!).  It'd actually be more convenient to wear
    if I got a two-piece one, but I certainly don't want a bikini; that
    would look real silly on someone my size!

    in re .26
    
    Thanks Pat, you've given me courage. I kinds stopped swiming
    when I got to over weight (by my standards) which of course
    made things worse, since that was one of my favorite exercises,
    i.e. I got bad muscle tone as well.
    
    Tho, being pale as I am, I personally think it looks worse...but
    much of that is in my head (and my teenagers wise cracks!) :-)
    
    Bonnie

      I'm personally holding out until the world recognises that the
      folks in the 18th century were right, a woman should have lilly
      white skin that glows in the moonlight. So while you all get a tan
      just pass me my parasol. ;*) liesl

    
    Well, I feel too fat to wear a bathing suit this year (though I
    did go out an buy one, just in case) and I'm not happy about the
    way I feel.  I don't feel too bad, physically, though it's not as
    easy to cross my legs as it used to be, and when doing the exercises
    to relieve the lower back pain I'm suddenly plagued with, I don't
    like to feel the roll of fat on my stomach getting in the way, but
    I'll be damned if I can't work myself into that feeling of being 
    immune to what other people (mostly men) think about the way my
    body looks.  I'm not a mass of poor self esteem, (it could be better,
    yes) but I am affected by other people's opinions of me.  
    
    What I meant to say in ths response is that I like men in bikini
    bathing suits, even if they're 60 and have a paunch.  What I really
    don't like are cut-offs, or any other kind of shorts.
    
    'course, there's always Moonstone.
    
    CQ   

    I'm not sure if I'd feel better about how I looked if I didn't exercise
    at all (that way I could just say, well I am the way I am and since
    I don't exercise that's okay)....but I *do* exercise.  Voraciously.
    And it's kid of depressing knowing I'll never look like Carol Alt
    or Kathy Ireland (SI Swimsuit Issue models).  Truth be told, even
    if you *do* work out there's only so much your body will change.
     Also, there's all this weird body image stuff that *warps* what
    you see in the mirror to something else in your head....I doubt
    I've ever really *seen* myself without excess mental baggage attached
    to my image.  
    
    There just seems no way to win.  

    Bleah.
    
    -Jody
    

    One man in here (sorry, don't remember your name) said his wife
    shouldn't feel bad about her no-longer-17 body because _he_ doesn't
    mind...                                                    
                                                               
    Several men have told Lorna not to feel bad about her body because
    _they_ think it's fine...             
    
    Hmmmm.
    
    
    -Tracy (who also hates how she looks in a bathing suit and now promises
    to "liten" up--in more ways than one!)
    

From Grooks, by Piet Hein.  MIT Press, 1966.

		Foretaste with Aftertaste

	Corinna's scanty evening dress
	reveals her charms to an excess
	which makes a fellow lust for less.

    I can't even begin to believe that someone else has "Grooks".  Now,
    does anyone have the tiny book "Twink"?
    
    sorry for the sidetrack but these little gems are printed in such
    limited quantity and they're so humorous/sage/true!
    
    -Jody
    

	Maybe we should all swim nude...

	...that way *everybody* would look silly, or worry about how they
look, and it would be cheaper as well - no designer swimsuits.  We could get
into water-proof body paint for those eho just *had* to look "fashionable"...


							--D

I read a couple of the replies about feeling bad about how we look in a
swimsuit, and I've tried to think about what changed my mind. So, here's what
comes to mind. Maybe it will work for others:

1. I got married. Joe is now legally comitted to loving me no matter how I
look.

2. I stopped shaving my legs and bikini area (I still can't quite get past the
armpits though). Gives me something else to be paranoid about on the beach.

3. I started reading knee-jerk feminist tomes. Anger takes is an external sort
of thing, so I stop internalizing. 

	Mez

    Re .40, I agree with your 3., but I'll have to pass on 1. & 2. 
    Having hairy legs and/or getting married again are both just too scary
    for me! :-)
    
    Re .39, but the problem is that some people don't look silly nude.
     Some people, a very few people, look wonderful nude, and they'll
    make all the silly looking nude people feel bad, won't they??
    
    Anyway, I actually feel better about myself in a bathing suit than
    I did when I was younger (in my teens and early twenties).  What
    did it for me is getting older and staying thin.  I look the same
    in a bathing suit as I did when I was 25, but back then it was 
    average for a 25 yr. old.  I'm finding out what was average
    for 25 looks a lot better when you're going to be 40 in 4 months!
     Some women who looked pretty hot in a bathing suit when they were
    18 or 20, don't look so good by the time they're 40.  But, if you
    looked average at 20 and still look the same at 40, suddenly you
    find yourself being considered more attractive than you were at
    20.  Anyway, I wore my new bathing suit to the beach Sat., and the
    man who accompanied me thought it was cute, and nobody else on the
    beach threw-up so I guess I have enough confidence to wear it for
    the summer.
    
    Lorna
    

            <<< Note 623.26 by WJO::JEFFRIES "the best is better" >>>
                         -< I don't want to be thin. >-

    
>    I have two one piece suits that I wear and any one that knows me knows
>    that I am not thin, I am firm and tanned all over :-). If anyone
>    objects to the way I look in my swim suit, they may turn there head as
>    I pass by. 


	I'll probably turn my head alright, but in your direction.
	Hooray Hooray.  These so-called perfect-figured models in those
	swim suites are DAMM BOORING and not so attractive. I know I should
	have lived in the Renasance (sp) period. :-)


	John

    well you knew there had to be 2 sides to the story...
    
    I too have an L.L. Beans suit, a talls, I bought it because it matched
    my Beans wetsuit, I only wear it under my wetsuit. I don't like
    it, it does nothing for me, is cut to modest. It is very boring.
    
    I like buying new suits but my SO picked out mine this year, he
    had seen it modeled in a catalog and thought I'd look just great
    in it (and I do).  The thighs are cut up to the hip bone, with a
    deep back. it has small arm holes which keeps it very practical for
    swimming and sports, it is sold by a waterski company (has there
    name on it).  I'll go with the "If you've got it, flaunt it theory"
    
    To bad people aren't more tollerant of themselves. We are our own
    worse critics.
    
    Gail (tall, tan & lean)
    
    

    	My wife bought a new suit for our trip to Florida. It still
    has the tags on it. She never went swimming and sat by the pool
    once. I expect on evening when the first heat wave hits she'll put
    it on and jump in our pool. The rest of the summer we'll swim at
    midnight nude. We don't have a fence and we usually have the flood
    light on to keep the bugs away so we enjoy our return to youth when
    our bodies could be skinny dipped in the daylight. I could care
    less if my wife was 300 lbs or 130. Shs'd like to see me at 190
    or so for health sake but my shape doesn't seem to upset her....
    
    Ken

    I'd say about 75% of us are average looking. (men and women) It'll
    take a real dog to get laughed at in a swim-suit. 
    
    Kate (who considers herself to be just one of the masses)
    

    I have a solution for those of you who are really self-conscious on the
    beach.  Simply go to the beach with people who are larger than you ! 
    Or, it could work the other way around.  My best friend is one to two
    sizes smaller than me.  Seeing a picture of the two of us in our
    bikinis has given me the motivation to loose the 10 pounds that I have
    been talking about loosing all winter !  
    
    As Kate said in .45, on the average we are all average !
    
    Ellen

The neatest swimsuits out this year for women are the two piece 
"sport" bikinis that are meant to stay put during serious water 
activities.  The top feels more like a sports bra than something 
that will easily come off with the first wave.  

My sister talked me into trying one when I visited my family in 
Orlando this past March. It stayed put in the waves on a boogie
board and even while swimming laps with flip turns.  I think the
brand was Arena or Speedo.

So where is my swim suit now?  Yep, in Florida.

What do I wear here?  Not one little toe goes into a natural body
of water up here when wearing nothing less than a "spring" wet suit 
(short-sleeved and short-legged).     brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
The water here is SO COLD !!!

An experience sailing in Chatham without a wetsuit on near where the
erosion is taking place there convinced me after one dunking.  

I think it's sad women compare themselves to Paulina & Co. when deciding 
whether to go to the beach or when trying on swimsuits.

My question is : 

Are there any men out there who compare themselves to Matt Biondi (sigh) 
or Greg Louganis when at the beach or trying on their suits or those 
cute little Speedos (what was the name Bonnie gave men's Speedo's ?)

							nancy b.

    	After I put on a bathing suit and lay down on the beach,
    	it seems a large number of people want to try and put
    	me back in the water. I can't seem to understand why.
    
    	Scott

RE:   <<< Note 623.47 by SYSENG::BITTLE "Nancy Bittle-Hardware Engineer,LSEE" >>>
                       -< "Sport" bikinis/ Matt Biondi >-

My question is : 

Are there any men out there who compare themselves to Matt Biondi (sigh) 
or Greg Louganis when at the beach or trying on their suits or those 
cute little Speedos (what was the name Bonnie gave men's Speedo's ?)

>  Well, I don't know who Matt Boindi is but I worry about my body
>  image somewhat when I am at the beach (and I don't have too
>  as I am a long distance runner and don't have to worry about my
>  looks or weight).  Last year, I decided to buy one of the those
>  bikini style briefs.  I am more comfortable in the pool than the
>  beach as some of them are real small.  But I'll admit sometimes
>  I feel more sexy that than when I wear shorts.  I don't know though
>  - it's really brings out issues like vanity and ego and excessive
>  concern with appearance and sexuality.  One thing I did notice when
>  wearing the bikini suits was a real feeling of being naked and
>  vulnerable.  Also, for a man, since our body parts are externally
>  oriented (???), there is a real feeling of exposure and worry about
>  out internal arousal being reflected externally in an embarrassing
>  manner.

>  I'm not sure I've answered your question at all.  What I've noticed
>  (at the risk of generalizing) is that men seems less concerned and
>  more comfortable with body image.  I attribute this directly to
>  women's social conditioning about their value being proportional to
>  their looks and ability to function as a sex object for men.
>  Unfortnunately,  men are trained to place excessive importance on
>  women's looks and appearance and it is not pretty to hear it when
>  men (especially in groups) get into rating women by their looks or
>  making sexual comments about women's body parts.  [I have had women
>  friends who do this to men too and I don't like it either.]

>  I don't know.  It seems like we have an excessive concern with
>  physical appearence in this culture and I can't claim not to get
>  caught up with it sometimes.  Physical appearence is a factor for
>  me especially in  
>  romantic situations.  I feel I have to be attracted to someone to
>  some extent.  Usually, it's a spark that is spiritual, emotional,
>  physical, and intellectual.  But raw physical lust still happens.
>  I guess I'm rambling?  Other thoughts and experiences?

john

>Are there any men out there who compare themselves to Matt Biondi (sigh) 
>or Greg Louganis when at the beach or trying on their suits or those 
>cute little Speedos (what was the name Bonnie gave men's Speedo's ?)
    
    What! And get a complex?!! Seriously, though, it didn't take me long to
    realize that to attempt to compete with well proportioned guys like
    that was to attempt to undo genetics. Too frustrating- and besides, the
    people that are attracted solely because of looks are too shallow for
    me anyway. (Is this sour grapes?)
    
>One thing I did notice when
>  wearing the bikini suits was a real feeling of being naked and
>  vulnerable.  Also, for a man, since our body parts are externally
>  oriented (???), there is a real feeling of exposure and worry about
>  out internal arousal being reflected externally in an embarrassing
>  manner.                                 
    
    Yes. This is a very real issue. It's tough enough wearing shorts- why
    compound the problem? Besides- I don't consider myself to have an
    appropriate body for that type of suit.
    
    Comparing yourself to other "dream type" people's physical appearance
    is an open invitation to stress- yet we do it anyway. I don't know why.
    I try not to. But you still can't help but wish you were more like the
    guy with 20 girls hanging around him (or the girl with 20 guys chasing
    after her, as the case may be). Perhaps it's just that the grass is
    always greener...
    
    the Doctah

    re.46 > go to the beach with people who are larger than you
    
    And here I thought I was always invited because of my Frisbee
    throwing expertise 	 !
    
    Dana

    ... Well, I think a one-piece suit adds more mystery and is more
    alluring than a teeny bikini that leaves very little to the
    imagination.
    (personally I don't care if my stomache is white forever!)
    
    I am overweight and find myself self-conscious in a bathing
    suit, but I refuse to let that keep me from doing something
    I enjoy.  I'm a firm believer than tanned fat is more attractive
    than white fat.  :v)
    
    theresa.

re: .49 (John Heffernan)

>  Well, I don't know who Matt Boindi is ...

Who is Matt Biondi?

Matt Biondi won 6 medals in the swimming competition of the 
1988 Summer Olympics at Seoul.  He also has been doing promotions
for the 1990 Goodwill Games.  Secondary to these accomplishments, 
he has an incredible body...intense blue eyes offset by dark, curly
black hair, segmented stomach muscles, huge shoulders and "lats" that
, along with his segmented stomach muscles, give him an athletic "V"
shape, the classic gluteous maxima found in many male competitive 
swimmers, and long, powerful legs.  In addition, he's usually photo-
graphed in his swimsuit WET.  I think water is very sensual (car washes
never last long enough :-) ).  

>  One thing I did notice when
>  wearing the bikini suits was a real feeling of being naked and
>  vulnerable.  Also, for a man, since our body parts are externally
>  oriented (???), there is a real feeling of exposure and worry about
>  out internal arousal being reflected externally in an embarrassing
>  manner.

It's neat you've had the experience of vulnerability and can therefore
empathize with a woman's feelings when wearing swimsuits.  

But I think women have 2 body parts that are also externally oriented
which can reflect internal arousal (or cold), as well.

>  I'm not sure I've answered your question at all.

Yes, you did.  It is still my perception that most men only think of how 
their bodies compare to the "ideal" if for only a moment, and rarely 
dwell on it.  Dr. Levesque (.50) also reinforced this perception - he 
has the most healthy attitude that 

" Comparing yourself to other "dream type" people's physical appearance
    is an open invitation to stress- ...  "

                                     men's 

                                     ^^^^^
>  women's social conditioning about their value being proportional to
>  their looks and ability to function as a sex object for men.
                                                           ^^^^^
                                                           women.


Hey, I thought it was the other way around!  (ONLY KIDDING :-)

							nancy b.

    
    
    I've read this file and I must admit it's A good topic. I practically
    live at the beach. I've seen fat (I mean fat) people in bikinis. It
    kinda grosses me out. If the suit fits wear it. I've seen girls wear
    the ones that go up the crack of their bum. I would never let my 
    girlfriend or my daughter (when ever I get one) wear one. But different
    strokes for different folks. I hot thing this years is the neons bikini
    with the zipper front for the women. Guys were still stuck with shorts.
    
        My girlfriend notice that I enjoy tanning by the pool or at the
    beach. She bought me one of those bikini swim suits ( grape smugglers)
    I wore it around the pool. It kept her quit and got me a good tan. I
    like the feeling and the fit. I doubt I'll ever wear it to the beach,
    One thing is wearing one for a purpose and another is wearing it to
    flaunt around. Maybe if I get enough encouagment I'll be daring. I
    thought I look pretty good in one. I'm 5'10" with a 29-30 in waist.
    Yes or No? I still have shorts.
    
    
    Bill
    
    look pretty good in one.  

    The thing about men wearing bikinis is the stretchy material.
    I couldn't believe it one time when I saw a guy wearing one,
    and he had a partial erection!  I mean really!
             
    call me old-fashioned, I like the trunks better.  OP and other
    brands have some really colorful, cool looking ones.
    
    theresa.

    Your not old fashion. Shorts are in Jams are out. Ocean Pacific are
    awesome. Plus they have pockets  :-) 

    O'yea they cost the same $25-$30
    
    
    Bill :-)
    

    
    re: The issue of men wearing Speedos versus shorts:
    
    Is there a contradiction in women who are willing to wear revealing
    suits but dislike it when men do? Or do they dislike wearing
    revealing suits themselves?
    
    How do they feel about nude swimming or sunbathing?
    
    Just curious.
    
    -roger
    
     

    in re .54
    
    Hi Bill,
    
    I know that you are a new reader/writer in womannotes and aren't
    aware of the issues that people have been talking about in here.
    However, I would strongly suggest you avoid saying things like
    "I would never let my girlfriend.." do a particular thing. It
    would be okay to say something like "I would not be comfortable
    with a woman who wore such a suit." Saying 'let' implies ownership
    or a parent child relationship, neither of which I would tolerate
    in a relationship with another adult of either sex.
    
     Regards,
    
    Bonnie
    

    
    re -.1
    
    He'll learn the party line quick enough...

    
    Ever since my earliest memories of going to a beach or swimming
    pool the normal wear for males (in Britain) has been the elasticated
    legless swimming costume.
    
    I well remember the first time I saw a fellow male wear boxer style
    shorts to a pool - it was at a regular school swimming lesson and
    the poor unfortunate soul was given a merciless roasting by the
    gym master for his temerity, stupidity, and sexual looseness, in
    front of a large (but fortunately all-male) gathering, followed
    by having the offending garment confiscated, 6 strokes of the cane
    applied (for not wearing a regulation costume and "answering back",
    and he spent the rest of the lesson "skinny dipping"...
           
    /. Ian .\
    
    (official reason: hydro-dynamic drag on the loose material frquently
    exceeds the grip of the elastic waist-band...)
    
    
    

  >  Is there a contradiction in women who are willing to wear revealing
  >  suits but dislike it when men do? Or do they dislike wearing
  >  revealing suits themselves?

    I think the difference is what is being revealed. My suit reveals
    plenty of leg and my shape. I wouldn't mind my SO revealing the
    same but "if you've got it, flaunt it" just doesn't translate to
    mens suits. I think it's the reverse, "if you've got it, you'll need
    a more modest suit to cover it."
    
    8^)
    
    Gail

    re .61, what a barbaric way to treat a human being.  (I thought
    England was supposed to be civilized.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    "civilised" is not an epithet that springs to mind when reminiscing
    about British Public Schools (ever read "Tom Brown's Schooldays"?)
    
    Total conformity is _required_ and if (as was the case) the school
    regulations stipulated a particular pattern of bathing attire, then
    not wearing it was considered a serious breach of school discipline.
    
    The pattern required (legless, black, elasticated) was considered
    "proper", and the loose-legged boxer style was considered "immodest"
    and "exhibitionist" (two of the milder remarks the gym-master used).
    
    It was inicdentally fairly normal if swimming costumes or gym clothes
    were damaged or otherwise unavailable for the boy in question to
    do the lesson "a la grecque" without punishment (it wasn't a coed
    school of course). It was wearing an unsuitable alternative that 
    warranted punishment.
    
    /. Ian .\

    To the noter who asked why I (or anyone else) don't like "nuthuggers"
    I have this to say.
    
    	When a man wears one of these bathing suits it leaves nothing to 
    the imagination.  IMO, he shouldn't be wearing anything.  I feel a 
    man is much sexier when the suit hugs the top of his hips, is long
    enough where I don't think his parts are going to pop out and if 
    they are nice and worn looking (the suit, not the man).  When I see
    a women wearing a string bikini, I always see her tugging at it, 
    always adjusting it, always checking it.  How can that look sexy to 
    any man???   String bikinis should just be used to get that tan
    that so many women crave.  (although, I feel she should stay away
    from the sun, once you've had skin cancer, you learn).....
    
    Anna
    

    Thanks for the reminder...I must buy the sunglasses today....and
    then travel to Old Orchard...for the men in bikinni's.
    
    I am sure no one knows what this Memere is looking at behind those
    sunglasses! ;-)

    I personally am most comfortable in a fairly small (not quite bikini)
    swimsuit, because I find shorts or long trunks to be very
    uncomfortable,especially upon getting out of the water:  they take
    a long time to dry and they're heavy.  Here in Europe, at least
    at the beaches I've been to, people seem to wear more or less what
    they want;  I've always felt comfortable wearing what I'm physically
    most comfortable in.  In the U.S.  (where I have spent the vast
    majority of my years and am now studying in college), I receive
    comments from other guys and funny looks from women unless I dig
    up a pair of shorts.
    
    I'm not writing this to complain;  I'm writing it to ask a question:
    if you feel offended or bothered by what other people choose to
    wear to the beach, then why?  Even if someone wears a really tacky
    outfit, I don't find it OFFENSIVE;  I find it TACKY.  What feelings
    do you (generic) have that make other people's swimwear so bothersome?
    

    
    One of the British Sunday newspapers yesterday reported that a local
    authority in Britain had banned the wearing of long legged ["Bermuda"]
    shorts as swimming attire in their public swimming pools on the
    grounds that they are dangerous (as in "life threatening")!
    
    Apparently the concern is that when wet they are so heavy that they
    can drag a weak swimmer down and make rescue difficult...
    
    /. Ian .\

    re .68 Wouldn't the absorbed water be neutrally buoyant ? 
    
    A wet pair of shorts weighs the same *in* water as a dry
    pair weighs *out* of the water.
    
    The only difference would come as the drowning swimmer was
    being lifted out of the water. And how many pounds of water
    can a pair of shorst absorb ? 5? Insignificant.
    
    Sounds like somebody with a taste for skimpy attire on bathers
    had a say in the rules.

    Have you  ever tried to swim with clothes on? It's really tough to
    move,  so  most  livesaving  classes  include  a section on taking
    clothes  off  in  the water. I know that I can barely swim in long
    pants,  and  I  don't  know how much easier it would be in Bermuda
    shorts.  Sounds like a reasonable rule to me.

--David

    I don't know whether it's the weight or the drag or what, but it
    really is hard to float in or get out of the water in any amount
    of clothing.
    
    Years ago while horsing around with a bunch of friends in college,
    I fell off the end of a dock into about 8 feet of water.  My
    friends tossed me a lifesaver ring and I was never in any danger,
    but I couldn't drag myself out of the water until I pulled off my
    jeans and sweatshirt.
    
    --bonnie