Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    I think your father is being completely unreasonable, if that's
    any consolation. But more importantly, make sure that you do not get
    married just to get away from your father's tyranny. I am not saying
    you are; only you will know for sure. If you are certain that you
    are getting married for the right reasons, then disregard this advice.
    
    It sounds like you know what is right, but your upbringing is making
    you feel guilty about it. Have you talked to a counselor about it?
    Sometimes it's good to talk to someone objective who has 
    professional experience too. If your guilt is really weighing on
    you I think that counseling might be a good idea. 
    
    Like I said, I think you're totally in the right, but what's important
    is that YOU believe it.
    
    
    Roberta
    

    I have  to  agree with Roberta, your father is being manipulative.
    He  may  not be completely unreasonable about living together from
    his point of view it is a sin, and therefore unacceptable. I could
    understand  his paying your rent if you didn't move in with Kelly,
    as  he  really  feels strongly about his morals. 

    If you  don't  feel what you're doing is wrong, then you just have
    to  ignore  your  father  until  he calms down (weddings help, and
    grandchildren can solve almost all such problems.)

    Make sure  that  you're getting married for the right reasons, and
    not  just  to  get  even  with  your  father,  and  then  plan  it
    yourselves.

    Good Luck.

--David

    
    	Tell him to his face that you think his actions and behavior
    is bullsh*t, and you're not going to put up with it anymore. Then
    stick to this choice, (should you so choose) no matter what. In
    the long run, he'll respect your ability to do something he never 
    could; your sister will too.
    
    	Part of the problem of basing how you feel on met conditions is
    that the list just might be (besides being "arbitrary") infinitely
    long! Those of us who seem to be ever stuck with feeling a certain
    way likely keep generating conditions (for ourselves and others)
    which tend to keep the brass_ring_of_happiness just out of reach.
    *Whatever* condition you meet, another, even more arbitrary one
    will replace it, so via reason, the feeling can persist.
    
    	Curing anyone of this condition requires finding out what the
    *actual* problem is - not a trivial task. Its the shame-based stuff
    again...
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Brenda,
    
    You've brought up a point that I see over and over again in my family.
    There are 5 women (no men), between the ages of 28 and 35.  We've
    all been supporting ourselves and each have responsible careers.
    
    What irks us is that we'll ALWAYS be "little girls" to my father.
    At times he gets out of the "father mode" and we have some great
    discussion, but then he remembers that he's the father, and he's
    got to know all the answers, etc., etc.
    
    I think the root of the matter is that he's afraid to lose you,
    even though you've been living on your own.  The money situation
    is his way of controlling things and making you jump through hoops
    to "prove" that you love him.  You can't change his attitude; he's
    the one responsible for that.  He'll always be your father, and
    he wants to watch out for you, and also to make sure that you keep
    the family name "clean".
    
    If it is possible to find alternative living situations, without
    compromising your finances or relationship, then do so and try to
    come to an understanding with your father.  Maybe he's afraid of
    admitting what he _really_ feels (after all, aren't fathers supposed
    to be the steadfast ones...).  Perhaps if you take him out for dinner
    - just the two of you and talk things out.  You'd be in a neutral
    territory and the conversation would just be between the two of
    you.  It's an emotionally charged issue, and it needs to be handled
    with care, to avoid long-term problems.
    
    You know your father; think about what you want the outcome to be
    and take it from there.
    
    Good luck!
    Judi
    

    
    A couple of quick thoughts.  (And yes, I think your Dad is being
    unreasonable also.)
    
    What is Kelly's reaction to all of this?  Are you discussing BOTH
    of your reactions to the manipulation and developing JOINT methods
    for dealing with it?
           
    Have you already started pre-marital counseling with your priest?
    Is there any support there for establishing a dialogue with your
    father?  Your father is talking a game that the church would support,
    but not following through.  (I'm not Catholic and really don't respect
    many of the official stands of the clerical hierarchy, but that
    doesn't mean you can't find sympathetic individuals to help.)
    
    If you and Kelly decide that establishing independence is more
    important than keeping peace, remember that in the end the only
    person your Dad's actions will hurt is himself.  Try to maintain
    contact with other members of your family.  Try to forgive him (not
    easy, I know).  In time he may come around.  Remember too that family
    comes in many guises.  You can create a set of friends and
    relationships that will fill that role.
    
    Best of luck to all of you.
    
    		Alison
    

Lots of things the previous replies have said are true. My Dad had a real
problem when Joe and I started living together. And I, in turn, had a real
problem with the rejection. If you feel that now is the time to shatter the
family myths, then do it (I did). Get all the support from Kelly you can.
You'll need it. Don't forget, you can love your father and live your own life
at the same time. And he can love you. Maybe you'll need to remind him. If you
want to talk offline, contact me.
	Mez

    Do yourself some favors:
    
    - You have done well supporting yourself up until now...continue
    it and wait a while before getting married.  You are only 24 and
    these problems may be unconsciously directing you toward marriage.
    
    - Why do you need parental approval?  I realize that it's a nice
    thing to have but DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY!!!  I cannot stress that
    enough.  Even if you lose your family (so drastic but it happens),
    you will be happy w/ Brenda - most important thing to consider....
    
    - And what does Kelly think of this whole senario?  Are you getting
    the emotional support you deserve?  Make sure that you are.
    
    ---- Be sure that Brenda can support herself....
           that Brenda really DOES love Kelly.....
             and make sure you communicate to EVERYONE that you are
             a loving but independent adult
    
    
    ... and most of all...good luck...(from another Irish Catholic who
                                       never seemed to follow the
                                       rules...ha ha)
    
    
    cath.

    
    
    You are not your father's 'little girl'.  You are a grown
    woman responsible for your own life and your own actions.
    
    Your wedding is not a dog and pony show.  It is a celebration
    of your commitment to your partner.  
    
    If you are old enough to contemplate something as serious as
    marriage, you are certainly old enough to determine your own
    moral values (which, by the way, cannot be bought-a simple
    truth that your father does not seem to understand), and to
    take responsibility for your living quarters, choice of 'room-
    mate', etc.  
    
    Your wedding day should be a day of celebration between you
    and your prospective husband.  It is the first day of the rest
    of your life together.  Please make it a memorable and personally
    satisfying day for both of you, together....those who choose not
    to witness your day of love and joy will be the one's missing
    out.
    
    Deborah
    
    

    I think you've done the right thing, Brenda.  I've just breezed
    through the previous responses, but noticed that I agree with
    Deb in .8.
    
    About all I can add is that I think you should get counseling
    regarding your relationship with your father.  My mother used
    to put conditions on things, as well, and has never stopped
    telling me what I should do, and pointing out all the things
    I've done that don't meet her expectations.  Basically, she's
    always right and everybody else is always wrong, unless they
    let her tell them exactly what to do.  I never noticed in all
    these years how my "relationship" with her has adversely affected
    my life.  Now, nearing age 36, I've realized how my reactions to
    her have limited my life, my growth, and my self-concept, and I'm
    finally doing something about it.  It's painful to work through,
    but it's better than letting it make you feel guilty or inadequate
    all your life.
    
    Good luck.

    Well, I can't say whether or not you're doing the right thing.
    All I can say is that it *is* what *I'd* do if I was in the
    same situation.
    
    re: the money business. It sounds to me like he's trying to
    bribe you into being "good".
    
    --- jerry

    Brenda,
    
    why is it that life/human/relationship/love situations always get
    tangled up in finance?
    
    Why should you, expect your Father to pay for your wedding/be upset
    when he made conditions/be prepared to compromise your integrity
    to fit someone else's idea of morality?
    
    Do your own thing, do the right thing (for YOU), be happy.
    
    It's a sad fact of life that you can't please all the people, all
    the time, and there's no 'rule' that says that older relations are
    wiser, or should be obeyed to the letter. It's your life, live it
    your way!
    
    With luck, he'll come round. If you show him that you're gonna do
    it your way, he either moves closer to you, or looses out on his
    'little girl's' future.
    
    Ken (who_has_two_'little_girls'_and_hopes_he_can_take_his_own_advice
    _when_the_time_comes).

    
    Parents are never going to stop being parents.  Your father does
    love you.  If he didn't he wouldnt even care what you did.  I do
    agree that he is being unreasonable, but everybody's definition
    of unreasonable is different.
    
    I too am from a strict Irish-Catholic family.  When I moved in with
    my boyfriend my mom thought it was a good idea.  Mind you my dad
    passed away when I was 12 so I didn't have a chance to get any
    reactions from him.  But the rest of my family was dead set against
    it.  They thought it was wrong according to the church.
    
    I do not agree with many of the church's stands on issues, and this
    has always been a constant issue with my family.  But I am not one
    to take things blindly.  I usually question everything.  So I really
    did not see my moving in as a bad thing.  In fact I saw it as quite
    the opposite and it was.  It was a great learning experience.  I
    learned alot about myself and how to live with people other than
    your family members.
    
    Your dad is a typical stubborn Irishman.  I don't think what he
    is doing is correct, but in his mind he does.  If you have been
    able to make it without his help then why start now.  He is your
    dad and was responsible for your live up until age 18.  But you
    are past that point and you have to live your life the way that
    you want to.  If you live it for him or anyone else, you will one
    day realize that you had made a terrible mistake.  Live your life
    according to your beliefs and values.
    
    I can understand his situation and I'm sure you do as well.  But
    he is not going to change neither are you.  Do what makes you happy.
    I'm sure in time he will come around, but that will probably take
    quite a while.  He is still trying desparately to hold on to you,
    but he has to let go.  He has to learn that letting go doesnt mean
    that he is going to loose you which is what he is probably afraid
    of. 
    
    Just a side note:  Why do you expect him to pay for the wedding?
    I know it is tradition and all, but in this day and age it is
    no longer the norm.  
    
    I wish all three of you luck  with this.  I'm sure everything will
    work itself out once the Irish tempers have calmed down!
    
    Good Luck,
    Michele (another stubborn Irish-Catholic daughter)

    Brenda,
    
    It is, no doubt, a painful situation...having to take a stand with
    your parents around the issue of your wedding, an event that should
    be joyous and one that all your friends and family would share in.
    
    Don't underestimate the fact that if relationships with your parents
    don't mend before your wedding, it will really hurt if they choose
    not to attend.  In other words, make sure you have your supports
    in place because the emotional fallout from this family stuff can
    be pretty intense.
    
    It sounds as if you must draw the line, otherwise your parents will
    keep crossing it and pushing.  I mean, if they get their way re:
    your living arrangements now and your wedding, what will be next?
    
    Do they then start pushing about when you will have children, and
    how many, and what you will name them and how you should raise them,
    etc., etc.
    
    I took a stand a long time ago with my family, and there are things,
    to this day, that happen and that hurt very much, but I also recognize
    that the personal cost to me for comprimising would be very high.
    
    I agree with the comments made in another note that sometimes we
    have to find/make our own families.  I have always found it ironic
    that the people who (supposedly) claim to love us the *most* and
    have our *best* interests at heart almost always present us with
    conditional love rather than unconditional love.
    
    I sincerely hope that your parents get *their* priorities in order
    and can see their way to a reconciliation with you and your fiance.
    
    Regards,
    
    Laura
         

  I think your father's having a hard time accepting the fact
  that you've grown up--especially sexually. I think even if you
  did everything exactly as he wanted, somewhere deep inside him,
  it would bother him that you were grown up, independent, having
  sex (even within marriage), etc. 

  I think he's trying to make himself feel better about this by
  trying to retain control over you. Every time you meet his demands,
  he'll come up with some new ones. You meet those, he gets some
  satisfaction, and then he comes up with new demands, to continue
  to show himself that you still are responsible to _him_.

  I advise you to do what YOU want. When you can give in on an issue
  that isn't really that important to you (like which florist you'll
  use, how many bridemaids you'll have, if any, etc.), do so. But
  DON'T compromise on those things which are important to you. I did,
  and I can honestly say that I had a miserable time at my own wedding.
  I really regret all the times I compromised on things which were very
  important to me.

  Remember, that each time you give in to him on a major decision
  (such as living with your aunt and not spending nights with your fiancee),
  you're teaching him that each time he makes a demand, you'll jump
  for him, and it'll never stop, even after the wedding (especially
  if you have children!).

  Good luck!

	It sounds like your isn't going to pay for anything regardless
	so I'd just forget about doing anything for the money. That's
	first off.

	On the other hand, while I disagree (strongly) with his methods
	I don't see much wrong with his asking you not to sleep with your
	fiance. But then my values are obviously different then yours so
	I can't tell you you're right about that.

	You seperate to two issues (money and living together) in your
	dealings with your father as well because based on the track record
	you've laid out he's using one to excuse his actions on the other.
	If you were a 'perfect little girl' he'd find an other reason to
	hold back the money so just give up on the idea of getting any money
	and base what you do on what you think is best for you.

	Also talk to your mother. She appears to have found a way to live
	with your father. Perhaps she can help you deal with him now.

	Side note. My father objected to the man my sister was to marry. He
	objected up until the day of the wedding. He almost didn't walk her
	down the aisle. Once the wedding happened he accepted that that was
	that and objected no more. Now in fact he is very fond of my brother
	in law. My father felt that he had to object and put obsticals in the
	path of something he felt was bad for one of his children. If they
	kept up though all he could do then it was time to help them make
	the best of it. I don't know if your father is the same of not but
	that kind of thing does happen.

			Alfred

    Your problem brought up a memory of my first years of marriage
    that I had almost pushed aside.  It was my mother-in-law
    that made the demands and tried to set controls for her only
    child, her son--my husband--and to keep the peace, he complied
    with as many as he thought he possibly could.  (We *had* to
    sleep in her bedroom when visiting-because it had twin beds),
    and many smaller and non-essential things which generally left
    me alone and or sitting in a corner somewhere.  Finally, I
    said "enough" and refused to visit them, or let them visit us
    until he saw the damage he was doing to our marriage.  Took
    a long while, tho.
    
    She spent most of her life trying in one way or another to control
    him, but he eventually learned to deal with it either by ignoring
    it or telling her in no uncertain terms why he refused to do so.
    
    It did *not* endear her to me, however.  And you might find that
    your father will never come around completely--but you don't have
    to live with him on a daily and intimate basis.  You do, however,
    intend to marry and your loyalty to yourself and your husband will
    have to come first.  
    
    My mother-in-law did one thing though.  She taught me *how not*
    to be a mother-in-law.  One of my sons married/divorced twice, and
    their exs can't bear his name---but I get cards and notes even now,
    years after the first divorce.  
    
    M
    
     
    

    I hope no one actually takes that statement "the first grandchild 
    cures all" as fact.  
    
    My mother and myself haven't spoken in over two years.  She doesn't
    like my husband (been married almost 5 years) and since I refuse to
    watch what I say (mother refuses to allow Dennis's name mentioned in
    her presence) so we haven't really spoken at all.  She's missed my
    pregnancy (first in the family) the birth of my son, and my son.  The
    only time she's meet my son is about 2 weeks before he turned 1 years
    old.  The meeting was arranged by me but didn't include me. 
    
    She's missed so much!  
    
    Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on a tangent......    Whatever decsion
    you choice, be prepared to live with it for a long time..
    
    Anna
    

    My advice is to decide what sort of wedding you and Kelly
    want, and then to work toward that.  Do you want the type of
    wedding where your father walks you down the aisle?  That
    your parents pay for?  To me, this is the type of wedding that
    really is the parents party, and your 'wedding' is just a small
    piece.  If you want this (the traditional one), then you probably
    will have to play the appropriate role....even if you don't agree
    with it.

    There are about a million different ways to get married.  My wife
    Judy and I had been living together for a while when we got
    married.  We had the wedding at our house.  We invited our parents
    along with our friends, relatives, and many of our parents friends.
    But, it was our celebration.  We invited our parents to participate
    in the ceremony.  Each of our Mom's wrote something and read it.
    It was beautiful.  Many people came for the weekend, camping in
    the yard or staying at nearby motels.  Everyone came over for the
    whole day, we roasted a lamb, played all day, and had the ceremony
    in the middle of it all.  I think the days of the 'Mr and Mrs So-and-So
    would like to announce....' type of weddings are on the way out.  Its
    YOUR wedding!!

    Re: Money......Sounds like you and Kelly can survive quite well on
    what you make.  My advice is to show absolutely NO interest in getting
    money from your father.  Accept it as a gift at Christmas or Birthday
    or whatever....when freely given.  But don't make money at all part of
    what you want from your father.  Let him know you love him and you want
    him to be a part of your life, ask him his advice on things (what is
    he interested in?).  Treat him with the respect he deserves (I assume).
    But you are an independent person, living your own life, and all he can
    offer you is his 'wisdom'.  He needs to get used to treating you in
    a new way...it'll take time...but it'll happen.
    bob

    I want to thank you all for your responses and support.  I can't
    believe I got so many QUICK responses (I'm touched).
    
    A lot of you hit-the-nail-on-the-head about my family life and my
    father, it's a little more comforting now to know that I'm not alone.
    None of my friends have/had the same problems as I with their parents,
    including Kelly.  Kelly's parents can't believe that my parents
    are doing this and I have their total support as well as Kelly's.
    
    I also wanted to let you know that I'm definately not marrying to
    spite anyone.  Nobody is worth giving up my happiness.  As far as
    making major decisions in my life, I always do what makes me happy,
    but I also like to please others at the same time but I'm learning
    that it is not always possible, especially parents.  I've been on
    my own for 6 years and with Kelly for 7 so I've had plenty of time
    to think about it and believe me I have.
    
    I never expected for him to pay for my wedding but he insisted,
    I guess I should have never accepted in the first place, maybe none
    of this would have happened.
    
    I don't know what is to become of all this but I won't give up hope,
    you have all shedd a new light on the subject and have given me
    a lot to think about in a more positive way.
    
    Thank You
    
    Brenda

    
    re: .0
    
    I haven't read through all of the replies to this note, but based on
    what you've said here, my first thought is 'does your father have some
    reason he wouldn't want you to marry?'.  What make me ask this is:
    
    1. If you live with Kelly, your father will not walk you down the
       aisle.  He offers you money for another place.
    2. You take him up on his offer, but now you have to live with your
       aunt in order to benefit from it.
    3. No spending weekends with Kelly or your father won't help you.
    
    This sounds to me like you really need to have a heart-to-heart talk
    between just you and your father.  My in-laws tried putting conditions
    on my wedding plans (they refused to attend if the wedding was in my
    church - Episcopal, and not their church - Roman Catholic).  After
    listening to it enough, I said, 'fine.  If you don't love your son
    enough to attend his wedding no matter what church it's in, I don't
    want you there!'.  They came.
    
    I don't know what else to tell you, but I do hope everything works out
    for you.
    
    Beckie
    

    Brenda,
    
    I have just read through all of the replies to your note and agree
    with the majority of them (esp. #19).
    
    One aspect that hasn't been talked about is the religious one.
    Many people have been taught to fear the "wrath of God" and what
    will happen if we commit a "sin".  Since your father is a strict
    Irish/Catholic and obviously believes that living together is a
    sin, he may fear what will happen to him if he "condones" that sin.
    This may not even be a consious fear.  What he has to struggle with
    is his love for you against his religious fears/beliefs.  Sadly,
    although there are people who can help you work this out, you have
    to recognize that it is something you can and want to deal with.
    Not everyone can do this.
    
    As everyone has said, you HAVE to do what you think is right!
    
    If you deny what you want and believe, you may end up hating yourself
    and others because you sacrificed yourself for them.
    
    There is a very old saying:  "To Thine Ownself Be True".
    
    Stick to it!
    
    Barbara
    

	Re: .0
    
    Funny,  this sounds just like me four years ago.  I ended up moving
    in with my Boyfriend, paid for the wedding, and moved out of state
    - and are now VERY close to my parents.  Don't get me wrong...  it
    took time --- and lots of it.  But it was all worth it!!!!
    
    I decided to do what I thought was right and it all worked out for
    me.  I decided this because my husband would never have given me
    ultimatums like that.  He was always there for me, and I felt that
    I wanted to be there for him for the rest of my life...
                       
    ...and we are living happily ever after.
    
    Tammie
    

    Every autumn Nancy gets out the old football and Charlie Brown gives
    her another chance to make good on her promise.  He ends up on his
    back every year.  Manipulative people seek out victims to torment.
    Victims need what is promised *desperately* and make their own choice.
    Here is another case of a minipulator and a victim.  In this case
    the manipulator had the opportunity to personally train the victim
    into full victimhood.  An unfair advantage, in my opinion.  I sincerly
    hope that I never, ever try to manipulate my kids in this way. 
    I won't allow my kids to manipulate me, either.  Once I realized
    that I am susceptible to this kind of thing I became constantly
    on the lookout and break the chain of abuse as quickly as possible.
    It usually takes a certain amount of rudeness on my part to break
    free.  Somebody's feelings get hurt...I don't want them to be mine.
    The base noter has to make a decision.  Be free or be abused.

    
    re: -1
    
    Um, it's Lucy, not Nancy.
    
    
    Roberta

    re: .25
    
         Charlie Brown also finally kicks the ball several times while
    invisible in the animated Peanuts show "It's Magic Charlie Brown"
    
    ASP

    
    re:. 25  Well, you've managed to describe the manipulator/manipulatee
    relationship concisely.  I always appreciate seeing a "system" that
    I find difficult comprehend in a clear light, thanks.
    
    But, .27, the problem with your answer is that you don't seem to
    understand that Charlie Brown only gets to kick the ball when he is 
    imagining it, or dreaming it -- it's not real because he's not 
    visible.  That's exactly the same sort of thing that manipulatees do 
    all the time, it's the sort of thing that enables them to hope that
    "things will change", and continue to be "taken advantage of". 
                                       
    CQ