Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Diana,
    
    Hi! 
    
    Hair seems to serve a purpose, though less so than in prehistoric
    times, when it is believed that people had more hair for protection
    against foreign matter and for warmth. 
    
    There is no biological justification to shave or not to shave your
    legs. It's a matter of choice for you, I would guess. 
    
    I'm surprised that English women don't usually shave their legs.
    
    I suppose if I said that I like smooth legs on a woman, I'd be
    attacked. But I think there's an analogy to women who prefer
    clean-shaven faces on men. 
    
    So English men accept unshaven womens' legs as the norm?
    
    
    WW 

    Hello Wes,
    
    Well I quite like bearded men and also clean-shaven ones,
    but not ones who have a few days growth and are all prickly
    (like my legs get!).
    
    I don't think it is just ENGLISH women who don't shave so much,
    as EUROPEAN women. I never asked him how HE knows this......
    
    Diana.

Shaving your legs is definitely an American obsession.  I don't think
    (THANK GOD!) that it ever "took" in Europe. 
          
    Although, rumor has it that some MALE
    competitive swimmers shave THEIR legs to cut down on friction
    ( or is it resistance?) in the water in the belief that it will
    increase their speed. 
                   
    
    - Mary

    Hello Diana,
    
    I like bearded men as well as clean-shaven one. Just like you, I
    don't like the ones who have a few days growth and are all prickly.
    The reason why they have a few days growth is because for a few
    days they didn't shave. 
    
    I shave my legs just about every day. So my legs don't get all prickly.
    (I shave my underarms too.) I like my legs clean-shaven because *I*
    feel that they look better, especially when I wear sheer panty hose.
    People may think that it is an absolute waste of time. It may be so,
    but I don't care. On the average it takes less than two minutes, and is
    part of my everyday showering routine.  I'm not in the shower for
    two minutes longer because I shave.  I shave while I enjoy the
    therapeutic effects of warm water on my back. 
        
    -karen    

    Re .4, exactly my feelings, Karen, and exactly my routine, too!
    
    I like to take the time to shave my legs, but one thing I've actually
    never done is paint my toenails.  I wonder how many women out there
    reading this do paint their toenails?  (Now THAT seems like a tedious
    little chore to me!)
    
    Lorna
    

    Do some women like the ``Don Johnson'' stubble effect in men? 
    
    A recent article in GQ actually illustrated how men could achieve
    this effect. It simply is not left to chance. 
    
    There are days when I do NOT want to shave my face. I don't want
    a full beard, but I don't mind the haggard look on the weekend.
    It looks a little rebellious, in a way. Mel Gibson seems to always
    have this look...
    
    RE: .4
    
    Yeah, we all do this stuff for ourselves first! To do otherwise
    would be insanity.
    
    
    WW 

    Re the stubble effect in men, I think Don Johnson looks good with
    stubble, so does Mel Gibson and so does George Michael, but those
    three men are extremely handsome and would look good clean shaven,
    or with a beard and moustache, too.  Unfortunately, I think the
    average man just looks like a bum with stubble.  It's for the type
    of guy who's so good looking he could get away with anything.
    
    (Also, stubble gives women red chins after kissing.)
    
    Lorna
    

    aha! i knew that the three-day beard effect was "created" and didn't
    just happen! (do they have special razors with dull parts???)
    
    i think men should design their faces the way they like; i personally
    find the stubble look "sloppy", but i understand that others like
    it. on the other hand, i despise being kissed by a porcupine face
    (luckily, i don't have this problem too often!)
    
    liz
    
    
    p.s. who's mel gibson? wasn't he on laugh in?

    Re .8, Liz, don't tell me you're not a Mad Max fan??? !!
    

    Re .8
    
    That was Henry Gibson (on Laugh-in).
    
    
    -Tracy
    

    Who is Mel Gibson??????
    
    My Heart Throb - besides my husband of course!
    
    MAD MAX, Year of Living Dangerously, Lethal Weapon just to name a few.

    Well, to go back to the original topic, let me tell you that French
    and Swiss women (those Europeans I know best!) frequently shave
    their legs, some of them all year round, some of them just in the
    summer, when we walk in our naked legs, and all this black wiry
    hair tends to detract from their shapeliness! Actually, we don't
    really "shave" them, we frequently "depilate" them, by using strips
    of wax, which lets your legs bare for about 6-8 weeks. Additionnally,
    when the hair grows back, it grows very smooth and thin, not all
    bristly as with a razor.
    
    If English women don't shave their legs as a norm, I would guess
    it's due to having much lighter and thinner hair on their legs.
    I guess I wouldn't bother depilating my legs if I had just a light
    yellow down, instead of thick black fur on them...
    
    To answer another question, I don't paint my toenails, or even my
    fingernails, it takes more time than I am willing to spend staying
    put.
    
    And to touch yet another topic:
    I love my husband with a beard, he looks so wonderful with it; only,
    though I like to LOOK at him, I don't like to KISS him, as he is
    all bristly. So, now I have to choose between art and my love life!
    
    Regards,   Joana
                                                                  

    call me culturally deprived, but i have no idea of who Mad Max is!
    
    sorry to derail the hairy legs & face discussion.
    
    
    liz

    so why is it cool for men to have hair on their legs (in fact, it's
    weird when men shave their legs), but "society" expects women to
    remove all traces of hair from _their_ legs & pits?
    
    e

    another opinion from europe on the hairy vs. smooth legs issue -
    I come from Germany originally where women would not dream of walking
    around with their legs all hairy. I must admit that since coming
    to Britain I cheat in the winter (thick tights and trousers hide
    an awful lot of sins), but come February I'm off to the beauty parlour
    again to have my legs waxed ( I never have the courage to do it
    myself). I tried shaving under the shower and found it too tedious.
    
    As far as toenails/fingernails are concerned - toenails yes, I feel
    more groomed when they are painted. Fingernails no - there's nothing
    worse than chipped nailvarnish after a day at the keyboard.
    
    Diana, if you want the address of a good "de-fuzzing place", give
    me a ring.
    
    Gilla
    
    
    

    I don't shave my legs because I wear pants most of the time. I
    will shave if I'm going to be wearing a dress for more than a
    couple of hours, because the hair on my legs gets tangled in the
    openings in the knit of the pantyhose and makes my legs itch
    terribly. 
    
    In the summer, when I wear shorts a lot, it's a matter of whim.
    Sometimes I feel like being smooth, and sometimes I feel like
    being natural.
    
    Yes, swimmers do shave not just their legs but all over their
    bodies.  (Some men even shave their heads.)  I have read that
    shaving your body shaves about .02 seconds off your time for a
    50-meter swim.  That doesn't sound like much but in international
    meets .02 seconds can be the difference between a world record and
    third place. 

    Mel Gibson is an Australian actor who is considered very good
    looking by many American women.  He's also a rather good actor.
    Myself, I prefer David Bowie.
    
    I like to look at the unshaven faces of people like George
    Michael or the gorgeous guy who just came in to empty my
    wastepaper basket, but I don't like to kiss it.  A longer beard
    is nice, though.  It's only sort of scratchy, and that's very,
    er, stimulating.
    
    I don't recall ever painting my toenails, though I used to paint
    my fingernails. Preferably strange colors.  Like .14, I find it
    chips terribly when I type all day. My daughter Kat likes to paint
    her toenails -- she says it's "fun."   But then she's 14 and wants
    to let everyone know her hormones are flowing. 
    
    --bonnie        

    RE: Mad Max
    
    A film starring Mel Gibson as a futuristic biker. The film's premise
    is that society has deteriorated into two rival camps of bikers  (no, 
    not men and women), who fight for gasoline. All of this takes place 
    in the desert, perhaps in a society that, after a nuclear holocaust, has
    deteriorated into savagery. I'm not sure it was his _first_ film, but 
    that was the one that made him a household name.
    
    Also, Liz, the effect is achieved with an electric razor on a special
    setting so that the shave is even but not too close. I think this
    effect can make actors look intense (``who gives a damn about
    shaving, I'm too busy living on the edge''). Another example is 
    Griffin Dunne in _After Hours_, as he gets progressively more haggard
    looking as the film goes on. 
    
    I know this isn't MENNOTES, but I thought you'd be interested
    anyway! 
    
    WW
    

    me, i don't shave.
    
    re .1 an american man thinking european women shave-
    
    this is an american myth.  i thought when i was going to france
    that for _once_ i'd fit in with my ever-so-hairy legs.  nope.
    
    re: attractiveness
    
    to each their own, eh?  if i wanted to be snotty, i'd say that shaving
    makes as much sense as wearing make-up; a person looks more like
    a mannequin, which may be attractive, but does not seem terribly
    human.
    
    but that's just my snotty way of putting it ...
    
    in any case, i like hairy legs on me, on other women, and on men.
    
    i don't like stubble, and i prefer my legs when at least a year
    has gone by after shaving - the hair gets all curly and soft.  When
    i don't want to be conspicuous, i will sometimes bleach that hair.
    
    lt

    Re: .3
    
    Yes, swimmers shave their legs, even their entire bodies.  Some
    go so far as to shave their heads.  I am not making this up.
    
    Re: .14
    
    >but "society" expects women to remove all traces of hair from _their_
    >legs & pits?
    
    I think skin is historically an important facet of "beauty."  Like
    white, white, white, absolutely unblemished skin being a prerequisite
    for real beauty for the longest time.  As legs and underarms were
    exposed by changing fashions, women had more skin to maintain to
    the appropriate standards - smooth, unblemished and white or tan
    (depending on the exact time period).  I suppose hair would count
    as a blemish.  If it's covered by hair, it's harder to judge the
    skin's perfection.  As to why it's more common in America than Europe,
    perhaps it's because lots of America is a lot warmer than Europe, so
    baring more skin is more common.

    RE.20
    We have black,Indian,and Asian women as well in America who shave
    their legs, so what on earth does "white, white, white,unblemished
    skin" have to do with the practice?
    

    Re: .21
    
    History.  Didn't I say that?

    RE.22
    Who's history? American? African?...?????
    

    
    I don't shave.  Haven't in about six years.  I have really sensitive
    skin, and *very* little body hair.  In my opinion, a coating of
    down looks better than an ugly red rash and flaking skin.  On the
    other hand, even with ultrasheer hosiery or bare legs, you'd have
    to look pretty close to tell.
    
    I like both men and women to either not shave at all, or to do so
    continually.  Stubble - yech.  Fortunately hubby has silky hair,
    and his 1/2" of well trimmed beard is not scratcy at all.
    
    Rita
    

    Yes, well, it's still because white is the so-called standard in
    the US, and if the women of white men do it, well, then.  Like in
    the costuming note, where it is mentioned that the middle class
    tries to look like the upper class.
    
    I'm not saying this is how people should behave, I'm just describing
    a likely motivation.  If Nancy Reagan displayed downy gams, I dare
    say they'd become popular in Junior Leagues across the country.

    RE.25
    For the life of me I do not see the connection between race and
    leg shaving!!
    As to what constitutes "beauty standards" (and I shudder at the
    term but use for lack of a better one at the moment) women of all
    races see beauty within themselves for who they are and set the
    standards for themselves personally and not by looking to other
    races to set them for them.
    Saying that women of other races look up to the white women of
    white men for how they should look is not admitting that women of
    all races find strength and beauty in their own heritage, their
    own being, their own soul.
    As leg shaving is prevalent in the U.S. it seems it is more of
    a culture practice among most American women verses a racial
    practice or imitation. And as there are quite a few American
    women who do not prefer shaving, it would seem it is a matter
    of prefernce and not some sort of racial mimicry.
    Each woman has her own beauty, deep within herself; a pride in her
    own sense of worth, her own heart, which is clothed in her own
    comfort and pride of her heritage.
    So do not assume that women are clamoring to meet some sort of
    "white" standard, for inside each woman knows better.
    

    I shave my legs because I wear skirts/dresses to work and I prefer
    the way it looks.  I don't shave my underarms because it's a
    hassle, and burns and itches.  For several years in college and
    after I did not shave my legs; I agree with someone a few notes
    back:  after some months it got nice and soft and silky. (Not
    curly on me.)  Same for underarm hair. 

    At least one swimmer I knew in high school shaved everything
    except his head and "what the swimsuit covered."  Male body-
    builders sometimes shave to give their bodies an "oiled" look.  I
    also knew a dancer in college who when he was getting ready for a
    performance that included the usual male tank-top costume would
    trim his underarm hair neatly, although he didn't shave it. 

    I recently heard an electrologist (sp?) say that she'd had a man
    come in who was a bodybuilder and wanted his leg hair removed.
    (He changed his mind after finding out it would take years.)  He
    felt it wasn't "manly" to shave his legs--although having it
    permanently removed didn't seem to bother him.  She also said
    women frequently come in to have "mustaches" removed because they
    feel it's not "feminine" to shave their faces, and bleach and
    depilation creams are often irritating to the skin.  How's that
    for a set of confusing double standards?

    -- Linda

    Re: .23
    
    European and American.  Yes, I know it doesn't give equal time to
    all races.  It was an *example* of how skin can be considered a
    facet of beauty, not an exclusive and exhaustive list of what is
    necessary for beauty.  I'm not an anthropologist - I don't have
    that information.

    re: stubble
    
    Unfortunately, I tend to go around most of the time with a moderate
    amount of stubble. If I shave more often than about once every two
    or three days, my skin gets very irritated, and nothing I've tried
    so far seems to relieve it. And electric shavers just don't give
    a close enough shave.

    Just how often are women allowed to believe that "inside each woman
    knows better".  I take it you don't spend much time in, say, Vogue
    or Cosmopolitan.  Sure, I agree that the standards are bad, but
    I don't deny that there are enormous pressures to conform, and in
    many ways, pressures to conform to standards that are difficult
    or impossible to attain.  Why else do women dye away gray, shave
    "unsightly" hair, straighten wonderful hair, and try to put a teenage
    blush to wiser cheeks.  I don't condemn any one who does any of
    these things, for they're still beautiful to me, but I do recognize
    the pressures since I have felt them directed to myself.
    
    The majority of women I know who do not shave their legs always
    excuse it by adding "but my hair is so light it doesn't show".
    Very few claim to be proud of their hair.  Women have been criticized
    at aerobics classes for not shaving their legs, and even threatened
    with expulsion in some cases.  Leg hair is called gross...it's adult,
    is what it is.  The mature features of adult, mature women are 
    continuously denigrated.
    
    Even more than dressing up, the predominate or dominating race prefer
    that women of other races look as similar as possible to their own
    standards of beauty.  It's not right, but it happens.  I don't agree
    with it and I would prefer to see it go away.  So what do I do?  I
    too speak out that there are better ways, and I also draw attention
    to the existence of the status quo in order to show how extensive
    its domain.  

    Yes, there's a special electric razor to give that "stubbled" affect.
    Has a plastc "guard" on it so it stays "stubble-length" off the
    face.
    
    As George Carlin says - someday they'll invent a left-nostril inhaler.
    
    --DE
    

    English women do shave their legs.  I always thought that other
    Europeans such as the French didn't, but I see from one of these
    notes that I was wrong!  I don't think the Scandinavians do as much,
    but that's probably because they tend to be blonde.
    
    I do shave my legs in summer, and infrequently in winter, but I
    still don't really think it's a sensible thing to do; I probably
    only do it to conform to accepted standards.
    
    While on the subject of "excess" hair, what about eyebrow plucking?
    Now that's something I don't do!  What about the rest of you?

    RE.32
    
    > Just how often are women allowed to believe that "inside each
    woman knows better."<
    
    What I am trying to say is that something like leg shaving seems
    to be more of a "cultural norm" rather than some sort of female
    oppression.
    While I lived in Italy the women in the village I lived in could
    not comprehend why I shaved under my arms as it is a normal practice
    for the women there "not" to do so. The sight of my shaven arms
    raised eyebrows in Italy, whereas over here in the states the effect
    is opposite.
    Women are allowed to believe in their own personal beauty from within.
    Any free-thinking woman here in the U.S. has the capability of
    accepting or rejecting any cultural practice she is uncomfortable
    with.
    And, no, I do not spend anytime inside Vogue or Cosmopolitan because
    I choose to reject the standards which these magazines propogate
    as they are not standards which I am comfortable with.
    

    Interesting note!  I always said that two of the dumbest things
    I do as a woman is use mascara, and wear pantyhose..
    
    I've never minded shaving legs or pits--I like the look and feel
    of smooth skin.  As for eyebrows, I've pretty much stopped worrying
    about them.  Once and a while I'll pluck out a few "strays", but
    that's it.  I now get my eyelashes dyed, which is wonderful!  Even
    my skimpy little lashes look pretty decent that way, and I don't
    have to wear mascara--I despise the way it feels AND how it invariably
    flakes into my eyes.  (I've tried 'em all--there is NO such thing
    as a mascara that won't flake!)  
    
    But the weirdest thing I do is to pluck my "'stache"--there's only
    a few errant hairs that really show anyway, so what's the difference.
    
    It's nice as I grow older to note that fewer and fewer things bother
    me like they used to.  It's nice, too, to realize that you are doing
    things for YOURSELF and not others.  I often put on one of my
    wilder outfits and nutty jewelry;  my fiance gives me the fisheye
    but I'M happy with the effect.  
    
    This got off the "hairiness" subject just a bit, but it fits in
    anyhow.  I like seeing how different people perceive themselves.
    And as far as beauty goes,  I feel happier about myself, my looks,
    my body, and my abilities now than I ever did.  Isn't it great to
    get older (and a little smarter)?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Jane
     

    re .35, and Lisa, I agree with Lisa, regardless about what we know
    about inner beauty, etc., we still have to live in a society that
    holds up a certain type of looks as being the ultimate.  Sometimes
    it can be difficult to feel wildly confident about my inner beauty
    when I'm standing in line in the grocery store staring at the model
    on the cover of Cosmopolitan and trying imagine myself in the same
    outfit :(.  I know I have inner beauty, but what does the world
    want, my inner beauty or that model's outer beauty???  Even today,
    the black women that the media seems to consider the most beautiful
    (such as Vanessa Williams, Lisa Bonet (or whatever from the Cosby
    show), and Whitney Houston) are the ones whose features most closely
    resemble those of beautiful Caucasian women.  I admit I'm so
    brainwashed with Caucasian beauty standards that they look the most
    beautiful to me, too.  
    
    As far as plucked eyebrows go, I never have, and once got into a
    big argument with an instructor in a class at a secretarial school.
     I forget what the class was called but it was really bogus.  They
    tried to tell us how to stand, walk, dress, sit, etc., and in one
    class we were all supposed to pluck our eyebrows.  I was the only
    one who refused and the instructor always hated me after that. 
    
    As far as women shaving goes, I think women *should* just please
    themselves.  If I didn't want to shave I wouldn't, but I like the
    way it looks and I like the way it feels to have newly shaved, smooth
    legs.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE.37 AND LISA
    I guess what I am hearing is that I am wrong in saying that women
    have the capacity to accept or reject what she feels comfortable
    with because she has no choice in the matter as society dictates
    what she should think, regarding her own self worth and/or beauty
    and therefore she is unable to take charge of herself and it is
    the media's fault that she feels this way?
    Fran
    

    
    re .38
                       
    
    What I've been hearing in all of this is that while a woman has
    the capacity, i.e., the legal right to choose what she feels is
    beautiful or appropriate for her, it's sometimes difficult to say
    where personal taste ends and social pressure to conform begins.
         
    My mother would probably faint if she saw the hair on my legs,
    but I think it feels and looks good.  My sense of what beauty
    is for a woman is quite different from the images we see in the
    media.  At this time, I truly "choose" my model of beauty over
    that which is presented in the media, but that wasn't always true.
    For me, challenging those socially accepted images was first a 
    political and then a personal choice.  So it strikes me that 
    accepting (instead of rejecting) those images is also at least 
    partly political.  I don't think it's a question of "blaming"
    the media, but the media do serve as a tool for teaching people
    what's "normal" and what's expected.  I think we have to consider
    the influence of the media whenever we talk about issues of personal
    taste.  
           
    Justine            

    The issue of shaving is also discussed there...
    
    Lee

    
    
    	Would women pay $12 a leg for shaving treatments?
    
    	I recently saw a program that interviewed a man who opened
    up a shop in Calif. (thinkso) and was doing a great business.
    He said they use pre-shaving treatments, then shave and then 
    shaving conditioners and said women love it. 
    	Now why didn't I think of that!
    
    	Dave

    Would an American Women who didn't shave her legs or her armpits
    be attracted to a Man who was right out of CQ Magazine, shaved,
    groomed and perfumed?  (I don't think so...)
    
    I would think that kind of personal taste from a women's point
    of view *Hairy Legs* would attract a man with a beard and longish
    hair,more of a country boy type of guy, and not a Cosmo styled
    kind a guy. The tastes seem more compatible.
    
    Then again it seems women do what they want with their own bodies
    and what happens is what happens, and "Hairy Legs" is a personal
    statement, such as I am what I am and that's what I am, so there...
                                                
    Comments?
    
    -Arthur
    

    You mean "GQ"?

    SO SORRY...I did mean  "GQ"
    
    :-)
    
    Arthur
    
    P.S. Any other Comments besides my Goofy spelling error?

    Re .42 and "compatible tastes": Gee, in my experience, opposites
    attract. (This is going to sound like a natural history lesson about
    spiders, so be warned.) The hairy-legged females might prefer the
    sleeker, highly-groomed males, although the opposite may not be true; a
    male who takes such care in his appearance would probably not consider
    a hairy-legged female to be a proper accessory to his outfit. (He might
    find her "earthiness" quite appealing in private, however.) Likewise,
    smooth-legged females seem to select equally highly-groomed males for
    wearing on the arm during public appearances, while showing a
    preference for hirsute, be-plaided males for private recreation. 
    
    Don't let's ask where black widows come into this.
    
    -b

    RE.42
    This here ole country boy finds that short hair and smooth-shaved
    are a lot easier and practical than long hair and beards. I 'spect
    most women who don't shave their legs omit the procedure for
    similar reasons. 
    
    Hairy legs and crew-cuts - a marriage made in hillbilly heaven ?

    The replies in this topic have been pretty funny and its been
    amusing to see how side tracked some replies have been.  Anyway,
    I do shave my legs only for the reason that I do wear nylons and
    I do not like the way mashed up dark hair looks under the stockings.
    I would like to know why in the US women are expected to shave their
    legs, but it's not ok to mention the fact that you might want to
    shave your face.  I have lots of face fuzz, and have in fact shaved
    portions of it (I do not like face hair on women) but in this society
    if I mentioned the fact that I shave my face I would be considerred
    a social pariah.  
    
    

    I have known some women who for no better description I would
    have to label Hippy Earth Mother types. They have lived out in
    rural wooded areas in cabins,growing their own food,herbs and
    cooking on wood stoves, raising children etc....
    
    In this group of women none of them shaved anything because it was
    "Natural" to let your hair grow. To be intune with Nature and all
    that kind of back to the woods philosophy. These women, that I
    knew always were attracted to the bearded longhair hippy type of
    guys who thought it a sin to touch a razor.
    
    Now years later I live in downtown Boston, USA and haven't seen
    to many opposites attracting each other walking down the streets.
    No Longhaired Dead Heads with Newbury Street Models???
                                      
    So I feel shaving or not shaving your whatevers makes it more
    compatible to those people who shave the same whatevers you do
    or don't shave.
                   
    -Arthur

>    So I feel shaving or not shaving your whatevers makes it more
>    compatible to those people who shave the same whatevers you do
>    or don't shave.
    
    I couldn't resist... Wouldn't this make a wonderful question on
    those "compatibility" things the dating services use?
    
    o For each portion of your anatomy listed, indicate: a) whether
    you shave yours, and b) whether you prefer a partner who shaves
    theirs.

    - Upper lip
    - Eyebrows
    - Chin
    - Sideburns
    - Head
    - Legs
    - Armpits
    - Back
    - Whatevers (Now, *that's* a euphemism!)

    -b

    re: .33 (and a few others)
    
    I saw one of 'em the other day.  It figures. . .it was called
    
    The Miami Device
    
    Steve

    re: white skin --
    
    A historical/cultural note here:  

    "White" skin, in the sense of unusually light for the society in
    which the woman lives, has been prized as a trait of ideal beauty
    over a wide range of societies in a wide range of historical eras.
    (Ancient Egypt and northern India come to mind.) 
    
    It's related more to economics than to race:  In a society where
    most people work outside, most people's skin tans to protect them
    from the sun.   Thus, fair skin is a sign that the possessor
    doesn't have to work outside for a living.  Fair-skinned women can
    be assumed to be either upper-class women or prostitutes, or
    perhaps both.

    And for some reason or combination of reasons, the ideal of
    feminine beauty has frequently been a woman who doesn't have to
    work.  I guess the idea is that since she doesn't have to work,
    she has all her time to devote to sensuous pleasure.  Or
    something. 

    You'll notice that in present American society, where most people
    work indoors in a northern climate, the ideal skin is tan,
    indicating that the woman has the leisure and money to visit
    beaches or tanning salons all year long. 

    --bonnie 

    See if you can get your hands on a 3/4" AV tape entitled "Killing
    Us Softly" . . . you'll never again look at advertising as you do
    now.
    
    In celebration of National Women's History Month, the Merrimack,
    N.H. Library has been showing a series of AV tapes on the general
    subject in their Wednesday Mid-day Matinee series.  Today's ("Killing
    Us Softly") was superb in that it spoke directly to the way women are
    "supposed" to look/behave . . . all the way from hair to feet.
    
    If you'd like to borrow the tape, contact DTN 264-5482, or
    CIVIC::BJohnson.  Betty will also be glad to send you a copy of
    the recently updated Instructional Media catalog for more tapes
    on this general subject . . . and MUCH more.

An indoor woman is a decorative object belonging to a man who can afford
such a luxury.  Her luxury time is a reflection of his wealth, and she
derives her status from be attached to such a powerful/wealthy man.
Since her function is as decorative object, it makes sense that a lot of
this luxury time will be spent tending to preserving her value as such.

RE: .49
   
>    o For each portion of your anatomy listed, indicate: a) whether
>    you shave yours, and b) whether you prefer a partner who shaves
>    theirs.
                                   a) Me          b) Preference for
                                                        Partner
    
    - Upper lip                       No                Yes

    - Eyebrows                        No                No

    - Chin                            No                Yes

    - Sideburns                       No                Yes

    - Head                            No                No

    - Legs                            No                Yes

    - Armpits                         No                Yes

    - Back                            No                Yes

    - Whatevers                       No                No
      (Now, *that's* a euphemism!)

       Alan

    Whatsamatter with bald women ? Remember Star Trek: The Motion Picture?
    Now that was ummm, err, intriguing. 
    
    Dana

    We've had ribs removed by surgery, gotten The Vapors from tight
    clothing, gotten hiatal (sp?) hernias from long-line bras (a modern
    version of item #2) and now we can have skin cancer.
    
    Oh boy.
    
    --DE
    

  RE: .58

  >  We've had ribs removed by surgery, gotten The Vapors from tight
  >  clothing, gotten hiatal (sp?) hernias from long-line bras (a modern
  >  version of item #2) and now we can have skin cancer.
    
  
  Dawn, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I think that both women 
  *and* men in America see their own tanned bodies as a way of exhibiting
  their status, vis-a-vis, having enough leisure time to do so.

  Skin cancer has been known to afflict males, also.

    Alan     

    RE: .56  
    If your partner is female (maybe an assumption on my part) why would
    you want her to shave her upper lip, chin, and sideburns, I don't
    think most females would attempt to put a razor to their faces.

    Men don't wear nylon hose which pass u.v. ... Pants and opaque
    stockings do not pass u.v.  There has been an increase of skin cancer
    on womens legs starting from the time of the shift to nylon in
    stockings.  Even working women can get skin cancer on their legs
    just from walking to work in office clothing.
    
    Men didn't have ribs removed for fashion, nor other surgery
    to control their behavior.  (I'm not talking about "experiments"
    performed on criminals, I'm talking about the genesis of gynecology.)

    re: .61
    
    Not entirely true; at various times men were castrated and, later,
    treated with hormones, in an attempt to control aggressive
    behavior.  (See the play "Breaking the Code" for a recent
    example.) 
    
    Medieval monks who wanted to control their prurient lusts would
    not infrequently resort to having themselves castrated. 
    
    Castration to preserve a clear soprano voice was at one time
    fairly common (and rumor has it still not entirely unknown). 
    
    And it was not uncommon for athletes of the Roman period to
    be castrated -- interestingly, this was thought to increase
    rather than decrease their aggressive tendencies.  

    I have read, though I can't vouch for the historical correctness
    of this assertion, that men in pre-revolutionary France sometimes
    had their little toes amputated to make their feet appear longer
    and more elegant. 
    
    I offer no comment as to whether these events are 'better'
    or 'worse' than women's conformance to fashion, or whether
    they arise from the same motivations.
    
    --bonnie

    RE: .60
    
    When I filled in the blanks in the form provided, there wasn't
    a choice as to whether my female partner (yes, your assumption is
    correct), should be hairless in the areas mentioned, via a razor, 
    or by other methods.
    
      Alan

    RE:.59, RE:.58
    
    Of course men go in for tanning also. I never said they didn't.
    The subject of my REPLY was women, not men.
    
    I *did* notice, however, when I went to a tanning salon (before
    I decided it was not a good idea) that the clientele was overwhelmingly
    female. Not *totally*, but overwhelmingly. 
    
    --DE
    

    Yes, but except in the case of criminals or the insane, the surgery
    was not performed to make the men more "normal".  This is what was
    done to the women, in the name of returning them to a feminine ideal.
    Clitoridectomies do not prevent procreation, like castration; they
    make it uncomfortable however.  Castrati were more common in the
    days when slavery or serfdom were practiced; in contrast,
    clitoredectomies, which remove the women's pleasure but not her
    role, have been performed in the US in this century and are current
    elsewhere.  Removing the sexual features of someone is only something
    you do to someone you own (or to your other property, such as animals).

    re: .65 
    
    Well, yes and no.  I think you're making a spurious distinction
    here. 
    
    Except that we're women, so the danger is more urgent and apparent
    to us, I don't see any difference between removing the 
    reproductive power of a man you own in order to improve the
    aesthetics of his voice and removing the ribs of a woman you own
    to improve the aesthetics of her body. 
    
    Castrating a man to quell unpleasant sexual tendencies (Turing was
    given hormonal treatment only because he was gay) and performing a
    clitoridectomy on a woman to quell unpleasant sexual tendencies
    also don't seem to differ significantly. 
    
    I agree that this is a sexist, misogynist society, but it does not
    follow that everything that happens in this society was caused by
    hatred of women.
    
    --bonnie 

    
    re .60
    
    My teddy bear has all its hair.
    

    The numbers are part of the difference, as is the difference between
    effects of castration and operations on women.  Turing was labelled
    a criminal for his sexuality and was required to take hormones
    which did ruin his life, but it was done because he was breaking
    (and admittedly horrible) law.  Women have had to under go such
    operations when they were not breaking any law or a convicted criminal
    (and in some countries, simply because they were women).  
    
    And then there's footbinding...
    but I've been replying too much here for now.

    Lisa, dear, you are assuming that it isn't criminal to be a woman.
    
    --bonnie

    in re shaving the face for women...my oldest daughter has decided
    that shaving her mustache makes more sense than waxing or creams
    after having tried both...I have offered to take her to an
    electrolysist but she isn't interested...maybe the tabu on shaving
    for women hasn't passed to her generation...
    
    I am still not quite sure *why* women shouldn't shave their faces..
    except that men do it.
    
    Bonnie

    Some tribes of American Indians used to shave their faces.
    
    Including their eyebrows.
    
    Both sexes.
    
    I'm not sure what, if anything, this means.
    
    --bonnie

    
    	RE: .65
    
    	You say women are the only ones that have been forced to
    	undergo surgery just to appear "normal" ?  Well, then how
    	do you explain circumcision? There is no medical evendence
    	this prevents anything.

    RE: female face shaving
    
    An electrologist I talked to said she wished women *would* shave
    their faces as opposed to using depilatories or waxes which are
    harmful to the skin. (She didn't say why they were harmful, but
    for my part, one's *painful* and the other stinks to high heaven!)
    
    Dawn
    

    Circumcision doesn't prevent feeling pleasure during sexual
    intercourse.  Furthermore, it may cause you to look like everyone
    else that has had this operation, but it does not change your
    behavior nor cause pain for the rest of your life.
    
    ---
    
    Women aren't supposed to shave their faces because it's un-feminine,
    or some other such silly thing.  Women with facial hair other than
    eye brows get accused of having excess male hormones or otherwise
    being abnormal (such as being old, another abnormality in our culture).
    It's as silly as saying all women should have pencil thin eyebrows
    or all men should have hair on their chests.  Some do, some don't.
    In some cultures, women with fuzzy faces were respected as wise,
    perhaps because facial hair on some women may increase with age.
    I was watching some cable program and Judy Chicago was being
    briefly intereviewed about "The Dinner Party", and she had <gasp>
    four "eyebrows".  Now I wonder: is there some animosity against
    her as an artist because she isn't conventionally pretty?

This has been a very interesting topic and amazingly varied. I have a few
thoughts to offer...

On creams and other depilatories...any caustic chemical that can dissolve
hair is bound to be very hard on skin

eyebrows -  the current "fashion statement" for women seems to be the
            Brooke Shields/Connie Selleca more natural look with a flare
            rather provocative and shiek, different

legs -	    I prefer women who like meticulous grooming. I find smooth
	    flawless legs very attractive. Nobody told me they were
	    hairy until I saw a girl in 7th grade whose mother would
 	    not let her shave. She was a complete social outcast. (1961)

sexual mutilation - something out of the dark ages

My motto is... if you think it looks good, go for it. To each his/her own.
se la vi, caveat emptor, liassez faire, etc. Men have social pressure in
the business world to wear suits and ties. I feel very uncomfortable
dressed like that. Fortunately, DEC is rather loose, and even many managers
don't have to dress up except for customers or interviews.

dress loose and pass the juice

do

    
    As far as I know (and I sure don't know it all) removal of the 
    foreskin was thought, at one time or another, to prevent a number
    of problems later in life.  I don't know who came to this conclusion, 
    or why, and as far as I know it's not considered necessary anymore 
    by very many doctors.  You get used to what you're used to though, 
    and for those used to looking at circumcised penises, they look
    "better" or "more natural" than uncircumcised penises, so maybe
    the reason for the procedure has evolved into something purely 
    cosmetic.
    
    Anyway, as far as body hair goes, I decided not to shave sometime
    last fall.  I am now grappling with the urge to shave, as warmer
    weather approaches.  I want to stay unshaven "on principal."  My 
    leg hair is not especially heavy or long, it's on the fine side, 
    but dark.  My armpit hair is quite thick and long.  I have a problem 
    with perspiration odor also, exacerbated by the hair but kept pretty
    much under control.  I'm not comfortable with the way my under arm
    hair _feels_ though, especially when it's wet -- from swimming,
    sweating, showering -- because it gets pulled by my arm motion.
    But it's the principal of it... and I think I like the way it 
    looks on me (when it's not squished under stockings).
    
    CQ
     
    

re: .75

sexual mutilation is not something out of the dark ages -- it is 
occuring in the present in large parts of the world.  It varies in 
intensity from cutting off a young girl's clitoris with non-sterile 
cutting instruments without anesthesia, to removing all of a pubescent 
girl's inner and outer labia down to the pubic bone and stitching the 
remaining tissue to together, leaving a small opening for urine and 
menstrual fluid to escape.  On her wedding night, the male uses his 
penis to rip open her stitched together vulva.  This is not a 
particularly pleasant experience for the bride.  The birth process 
usually involves still more pain and tearing of tissue.  It is almost
impossible for such a woman to have sex without pain and bleeding, let
alone have any pleasure.  The reasons for such practices are "cultural"
-- an uncircumcised woman is unclean, unaesthetic and somewhat
disgusting -- like an unshaven one in our society. Respect for "cultural
differences" had left the United Nations and other international groups
inactive in taking strong action against this kind of woman-hating
mutilation.  The high rate of heterosexual transmission of AIDS in 
Africa may be due in part to the degree of bleeding involved in "normal"
sex because of the woman's condition.

    re.77 One might say that the 'Dark Ages' are alive and well in 1988.
    
    I'm not trying to be flip, rather, I think that respect for
    cultural differences has limits. We wouldn't tolerate a
    tribe that insisted on cannibalism as a cultural heritage,
    the practice described is no better. 
    
    If that makes me a 'cultural chauvinist' so be it. 
    
    Dana

    This may be off of the topic a bit but.....
    The 'Dark Ages' are alive and well and right here in the USA.
    
                                               
    For those of you with weak stomachs please hit next unseen!
    
    
    Last week on the Oprah Winfrey Show the topic of discussion was messy
    divorce cases.  Simplifying this a bit - A woman suing for divorce had
    to undergo a hysterectomy.  Her soon to be EX was a OB/GYN - he
    unlawfully, with the consent of the Doctor performing this woman's
    hysterectomy, put a hole in her vagina to her bladder and then stiched
    up her vagina. She suffered severe pain and bleeding after the
    operation but was told this was normal.  Finally unhappy with her
    recovery rate she went to another doctor.  She found out she had severe
    scar tissue, a hole in her bladder and a stitched up vagina.  She was
    told she would need major reconstructive plastic surgery. 3 years
    later she is still undergoing some surgery and is in pain every
    day of her life.  She can have sex but it is extremely painful.
    
    She sued both doctors - they had to pay her a million++ but her
    ex-husband is still a practicing OB/GYN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  This
    wasn't an ordinary malpractice this was outright malicious!
    

    Discussing cultural dark ages may be off the subject of harry legs but
    here goes.
    
    I was talking about these cultural-based mutilations with a friend who
    is much more knowledgable in various cultures than I was.  I expressed
    the indignation I felt towards those who would practice this and how it
    should be stopped.  She explained that as terrible as some of the acts
    are, that stopping them was far more difficult that at first seems. 
    These acts are interrelated with many other cultural factors and that
    arbitrarily stopping them often generated secondary effects that had
    equally bad results.  She gave an example of how early missionaries in
    India had attempted to stop these things at the expense of causing a
    whole new set of problems to appear.  I'm short on specifics but the
    discussion made me realize how interrelated cultural practices are, and
    that to make progress one has to proceed slowly, and fully understand
    all of a cultures practices, not single out just the ones we don't
    like.
    
    Nancy  

    I'm a male who happens to prefer hairy, natural (including little
    or no makeup) women, and always have.  I think that given that a
    woman is reasonably good-looking and sexy that remaining hairy and
    natural makes her even more good-looking and sexy.  I'll have to
    admit, though, that aside from bushy eyebrows and sideburns I'd
    prefer that facial hair lean more towards the downy side.  My
    preferences may also explain the fact that I have a full beard and
    shoulder-length hair.
    
    					Larry
    					  ~

    re.80
    
    True, true: when much of the culture depends upon the mutilation
    or death of women, we can't just go in there and help them.
    I mean, think of all the men who need "their" women to be mutilated,
    or for women to kill themselves upon widowhood, as used to be the practice
    in India.
    
    Heck, I understand.  Womens are just plain dangerous.  No reason
    we should dump on other cultures any more than our own, neither!

When I say "out of the dark ages" I mean "an idea conceived by idiots
who lived in olden times". If such attrocities exist today, I cannot
even conceive of the idea. My mother is sacred. She is a saint sent
to guide me from Heaven. I love women, and hold them sacred as the
guiding light of humanity. Please, let us have a woman President.
Show us the error of our ways. Margaret Thatcher has done her
best. England is certainly no worse off. Please do not consider
men as "women haters". I love you all very much.

dave

	Please don't make women saints.  They're people just like you.
	All people have the capacity for good and bad, and we all
	make mistakes.

re: 82 (admittedly off the topic...)

>    or for women to kill themselves upon widowhood, as used to be the practice
>    in India.

It still is the practice in India.  A friend of mine recently went there 
and happened upon a feminist rally -- the topic was opposition to the
present day burning of widows and wives.  Besides suttee (the immolation
of a widow on her husband's funeral pyre), it is not uncommon for young 
brides to be burnt by their in-laws, in order to collect another dowry
from a new wife.

The "complications" mentioned earlier when misogynist practices are 
interefered with are largely economic.  An uncircumcised and 
appropriately mutilated woman is not marriageable, and since she cannot
earn an independent income (except by prostitution) an unmarried woman is 
considered a burden on her family all her life.  

    Gee, I feel off the subject by sticking to the topic! I read all
    85 notes before sticking this in, and I feel like quite the minority,
    but its certaily nothing new!  :-)      
    
    When I was a freshman in college, there was a special "convocation"
    ceremony for incoming frosh at the beginning of the semester. I wanted
    to look pretty, and I hurriedly tried to shave my legs because I
    thought that they would look better. I was left with a two inch gash on
    my ankle and a huge ugly bandaid. Plus stubble within a short period of
    time. 
    
    Since then, I have rarely shaved my legs. Its NOT a matter of having
    light colored hair; as far as I'm concerned its just not worth the effort.
    My legs look d**ned good in hose and that hair keeps me warm in
    New England ALL YEAR ROUND. 
    
    I feel similarly about my moustache, which to date only one male
    has ever had the audacity to comment about. I tried waxing it for
    a period in my life when I was uncomfortable about the way it looked.
    But it grew in thicker, and while it was gone, I felt nude and cold.
    
    I like all of the hair on my body. It keeps me warm, its soft to the touch
    (relatively), and its a part of me. Yes, its darker than my skin tone.
    But I'm happy with it, and do not intend to part with it. Nor do
    I think that it detracts from my beauty as a person.
                  
    LKF
    

>< Note 767.77 by VIKING::IANNUZZO "Catherine T." >
>                    -< unfortunately not dark ages at all >-
>
>sexual mutilation is not something out of the dark ages
> ...  The high rate of heterosexual transmission of AIDS in 
>Africa may be due in part to the degree of bleeding involved in "normal"
>sex because of the woman's condition.
>

    The only  problem with this theory about AIDS is that the areas of
    Africa  that  practice female circumcission are not the areas with
    high  rates  of  AIDS  among  hetero-sexuals.  Africa  is  a large
    continent,  and has many different groups with many different life
    styles.  It is important to recognize that diversity.

--David

    Did anyone else who attended the Boston Museum of Science exhibit on
    Kenya last summer/fall notice the tools high up on the wall on the far
    right side which had a little card beside them marked "Female
    circumcision instruments"?  I was upset that they would so casually
    display instruments of modern day torture like that.   It upset
    me to be standing in a museum looking at something like that.  
    It was hard to see, and I noticed that it was placed a little too
    high for most kids to read.           
    
    When discussing it with a few friends later, they thought I was silly
    to be upset about the tools being in the exhibit.  They thought that
    the function of the museum was to show artifacts of a culture, not
    judge them.   They told me to get upset with the practice, not with the
    display of the tools themselves.
    
    It still feels upsetting to look at something like that behind glass
    with all the beads and dishes and belt buckles.
                                      
    

    <---- Re: 767.85
    
    Catherine:
    
    The burning of a wife upon her husband's death has long been
    outlawed by India. It is no longer "the practice in India"!
    Although, there are  sporadic examples of this outrageous         
    brutality - please be assured that the average Hindu woman
    is not killed upon her husband's death today.
    
    She may be, however, subjected to strict dietary habits and
    physical chores - in order to "mourn" for her husband ( this is
    especially tragic, say for a 13 year old bride ). But, these
    practices are slowly disappearing and are now rampant only in the
    rural areas.
    
    We have come a long way - and are making slow, but steady progress.
    Please give us a chance. And thanks for being understanding.
    
    Nusrat

I generally prefer 'au naturale' women... but smooth is nice for a change too...
Myself I look horrid with a beard...

I hate shaving....  If I tried to shave every day, my face would look like
hamburger.  I wish there was a way to get rid of the beard (semi)permenantly!
Right now I'm stuck with a shadow!

There is a theory that shaving makes the hair thicker and darker...  Is that
true for you?

RE: 767.32 Lisa 3D::CHABOT

"Even more than dressing up, the predominate or dominating race prefer that
women of other races look as similar as possible to their own standards of
beauty."

How did you ever arrive at that conclusion!?!  I think it much more likely that
the non-dominants want to look as much like a domanant as possible. If anything,
the have's would want to *keep* their exclusivity, not draft everybody into
their class.

RE: 767.65 Lisa 3D::CHABOT (RE: Bonnie Randall )

"Yes, but except in the case of criminals or the insane, the surgery was not
performed to make the men more "normal"."

Both men and women go through contortions to try to appear 'better' then
"normal" by some standard or another. 

RE: 767.77 Catherine T. VIKING::IANNUZZO

'woman-hating sexual mutilation of women'

*whatever* the reason this practice started, it is not usually done with
"woman-hating" in mind.  Usually this practice is done by women for a woman.
Hate is not emotion in operation during the practice on either woman's part.

I may not like, and you may not like it, but such things happen...  women
are their own worst enemies sometimes. 

"The high rate of heterosexual transmission of AIDS in Africa may be due in part
to the degree of bleeding involved in "normal" sex because of the woman's
condition."

Good point... I wonder if this point could be used to leverage this practice
out of existance.

RE: 767.79 NSG022::POIRIER

"The 'Dark Ages' are alive and well and right here in the USA."

'cruel surgery on exwife'

The Dark Ages goes both ways sexually.  Half of all the spousal murders are by
women of men. 

JMB 

    Several relies on this topic have indicated a right and proper
    disapproval for female circumcision etc, as practiced in other
    cultures.
    
    However, in Western culture today ( or only a few years ago ) we
    have
    
    - women having their teeth wired up to prevent food intake for weight
    loss
    - an active market in plastic surgery for breast size alteration
    - an acceptance of high heels / eyebrow plucking - all *disfiguring*
    - an industry devoted to producing garments whereby women can raise
      /lower breasts, flatten stomachs and reduce waistlines.
         
    "She who is without sin may cast the first stone" !!
         
    David

    David, I don't accept your examples from Western culture as being
           equivalent to the practice of female circumision.
    
    >- women having their teeth wired up to prevent food intake for weight
    >  loss
    
    In general this procedure is only used on women *and men* who are
    morbidly obese...for whom no other weight reduction methods have
    worked and whose weight is heath/life threatening. It is also
    reversible.
    
    >- an active market in plastic surgery for breast size alteration
    
    Breast size alteration can be for both increasing and reducing
    breast size. I am not going to comment on the operation for increasing
    size, but the operation for reducing breast size is normally because
    the size of the woman's breasts is causing her serious physical
    problems. Examples of the problems would include severe muscle
    pains in the back and shoulders. This type of operation is not,
    in my mind, in any way equivalent to a clitorectomy.
    
    >- an acceptance of high heels / eyebrow plucking - all *disfiguring*
    
    Disfiguring how? I have worn high heels for most of my adult life
    and have in the past plucked my eyebrows, but I am in no way physically
    disfigured by the process. Again I fail to see that this is compairable
    to a clitorectomy.
    
    >- an industry devoted to producing garments whereby women can raise
      /lower breasts, flatten stomachs and reduce waistlines.
         
    Again I do not see that wearing clothing to disguise figure flaws
    or to flatter the individual can be compaired to female circumcision.
    The wearing of particular styles of clothing is in no way permanently
    damaging to the body and it's normal functions. Further (arguments
    about fashion aside) the custom of wearing clothing to change the
    body's outline is in no way unique to 20th century western women.
    It has been practiced by women and men all over the world since
    we first have records of what people wore.
    
    >"She who is without sin may cast the first stone" !!
         
    I don't regard most of the above examples as 'sinning' nor do I
    regard people speaking out against mutilation of normal healthy
    female bodies as 'casting stones'.
    
    Bonnie

    Might I also point out that use of the euphemism "female circumcision"
    for the procedures under discussion *completely* masks the destructive
    nature of what's actually being done.  The actual male analog is not
    circumcision but rather the complete amputation of the penis and
    scrotal tissue.
    
    						=maggie