Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I can think of a few possibilities:
    
    	1.  If the man does not consider himself to be in perfect shape,
    	    he may feel guilty that you take the time for workouts
    	    and he doesn't.  His attempts to distract you from
    	    your regimen could be to lessen his own guilt.
    
    	2.  He doesn't like you spending time away from him.
    
    	3.  He finds that you are rejecting all the things he knows
    	    how to do to please you.  He may consider you obsessive
    	    about your diet - your refusal to accept wine with dinner
    	    seems to go a bit too far to me.
    
    	4.  He may consider your devotion to diet and exercise to
    	    overshadow all else in life, including him.
    
    I don't know you, but from the few words you wrote, I felt that
    you might actually be obsessed with your diet and exercise in
    a similar manner to those young girls who refuse to eat saying they're
    too fat (at 85 pounds).  Good diet and a reasonable amount of
    exercise is good, and few of us do enough in this regard, but it
    is possible to go a bit too far and have the mania for fitness
    take over your life.
    
    That's my two cents anyway...
    					Steve

If you're reasonably interested in fitness (or in fit men/women), and
can get into Boston on Monday nights, feel free to join up with the
Boston Barleyhoppers.  We meet at the Bull and Finch (Cheers) pub at
7:30 and jog about a mile to another bar where we have a beer or two
(some of us don't drink at all; others have a glass of wine), talk,
hang out, and eventually jog back for another beer.  The pace is quite
moderate (we don't go into the bar until the last person arrives) and
the atmosphere is quite supportive.  New people are always welcome. 

Most of us are quite unaccomplished runners, though several (men and
women) run competitively, including marathons. 

As to diet and runners: a pizza now and then won't hurt you, and --
assuming you aren't dehydrated -- one beer or a glass of wine isn't
going to affect your training noticeably.  You shouldn't be drinking
alcohol before a long race (10 or more miles) because of its
dehydration effects.  See Nancy Clark's "The Athlete's Kitchen" for
more information. 

Martin.

    Hmm,  most of the guys I've known have always been very supportive 
    of my exercising and keeping generally healthy habits.        
                                                            
    Some even came close to *nagging* me about it ("whaddya mean ya
    didn't run today?" & "oh, you aren't going to the TGIF drink again, 
    are you?").      
                                                                  
    Have you tried getting the guy to work out with you?  Jon is not
    particularly athletic, but he is nearly always willing to go for
    a run with me if I ask.  If he is a lot more fit than you, exercising
    together can be discouraging.  One reason I don't always ask J.
    to accompany me on that run is that, although he doesn't train regularly,
    he is capable of running a half-marathon (13 miles) in a respectable
    amount of time.  The reason I do ask him is that he's fun and encourages
    me.                                                     
                                               
    You value your health.  If he doesn't (in my experience this
    is the rare case), isn't that a subtle way of working against you?
                                                         
    Helen                            

Two thoughts:

My first impression of the man that is now my brother-in-law was of
him practically force-feeding his date (now wife) something from a veggie
appetiser plate, in a country club (swank for the town), even though
she had made it clear she wasn't interested in. After several attempts,
I said something loudly about believing Debbie when she says something
(or some such). I assumed it was just a random power game.

My honey started having tummy problems, and started watching his diet.
We had been in the habit of sharing a bottle of wine over dinner fairly
often. I kept offering it to him, he kept refusing it, and I'd "drink
alone" (where's George Thoroughgood when you need him?). It was a whole
lot less fun (couldn't talk it over, couldn't even share it). After
I gave up offering him wine, he started asking for it occasionally (he
started to get better).

The only part of this scenario that may carry over to you is your SO's
disappointment (my sweetie always hedged his bets, and would never say
'no' until it came time to pour). It's nice to share (wasn't that a
commercial a long time ago), and there's something special about food
and drink that enhances conviviality. If he doesn't have anyone else
to share it with, he's missing a large part of the things he enjoys.
Also, he may not be comfortable enjoying himself without your sharing.
Perhaps if you support him, he'll support you. (then again, you can
always threaten to rip his eyes out if he does that to you one more
time :-))
	Mez

    Jude,
    
    I think that if the man in your life isn't supportive of your fitness
    program, it might be that he IS insecure.  Most people don't like
    their SO to change for fear when they do, the relationship will
    also change.  Maybe you should talk about it with him and see what
    it is that makes him try to push you off your schedule.  
    
    But I also agree with .2, that once in a while it's fun to do pizza,
    beer, or even chocolate cake!
    
    Most of the men that I date think that my fitness program is terrific
    and they are very supportive. 
    
    Toodles,
    
    	-Dotti.
    
   

    I used to have a similar problem so I scheduled my jogging and work
    outs far in advance and stuck with the schedule (for the most part).
    Of course he was always welcome to join me.  
    At the same time that you schedule your work-outs you might also
    schedule you special time with him.  That way he'll know when he
    is going to see you and won't feel left out.
    
    
    
    -Nancy

    I had a boyfriend once who couldn't tolerate my vegetarian diet.
    He had this typically male (not most males, but no females I know
    of) complex about having to eat red meat every day or else he wouldn't
    be healthy.  He was forever being a total jerk about it.  Notice
    he's not my boyfriend any more.
    
    Surround yourself with someone supportive.  I've found *more than
    enough* men out there who are looking hard for a fit, sporty-minded
    woman/partner.
    
    	-Ellen

    Re: .8
    
    Ellen, haven't you seen Cybill Shepard's ads lately saying that
    she wouldn't trust anyone who wouldn't eat steak?  Beef - Real
    Food for Real People, and all that jazz!
    
    I think there's a general problem where the lifestyles of two
    people clash at the fundamental level of what they eat.  I can
    imagine being very frustrated if my partner and I could not enjoy
    a meal together (and I don't mean two separate meals at the same
    table). 
    
    A partner who is reasonably fit is a delight, of course, but not
    to the point where the craze for fitness takes over one's life.
    
    					Steve

    Re;  .8, (Maybe the author of .0 can help me but) I don't think
    that .0 is obsessive about her fitness habits.  She (and anyone
    else for that matter) should be able to chose when and what to
    eat or drink and when or when not to exercise.  
    But I do agree with you Steve that the lifestyles that they lead
    are different and if they want to continue the relationship they
    should compromise.
    
    In general (I know I might get some flames for this, hehehe) it
    appeared (in the past of course) that men would have their hobbies
    and women would sit home waiting for them.  Now women are more
    free to pursue their interests and have a night out every now
    and then. 
    I couldn't help but laugh at a previous note in which the woman
    was called selfish because she did aerobics right after work.
    C'mon lets be serious here.  I wouldn't be surprised if her
    boyfriend has interests that he pursued on his own.
    
    I agree that mutual interests are important in a relationship, but
    I think its also important to have individual hobbies.
    
    -Nancy

    
    	People are people, and they have a right to do what they want.
    	Some people think it's absurd not too have a glass of wine
    	at dinner, I haven't had a drink since New Year's eve.  Once
    	I have one, then it will be another and so forth. That's my
    	choice.
    
    	I went vegetarian 7 weeks ago, I've lost a good amount of
    	weight (not that I was fat, but slimming down), and now I've
    	started working out again.  Because I want to.  It's going to
    	be very hard to find an SO that will want to join in with me,
    	and be supportive of my habits, but hopefully she will have
    	the same qualities.  You can still have nice dinners, when
    	one eats filet minon, and the other eats vegetables with
    	tofu, and halibut.
    
    		I think if a person can't accept the person for 
    	what they are or want to do (especially changing for the
    	good of health) then give them a perogative.  YOu have your
    	life to live as well.
    
    				Mike
    

    Jude - I have belonged to every type of diet workshop, club, etc.
    and it NEVER fails that someone will talk about the fact that their
    boyfriend or husband undermines them - tempts them - no matter how
    often they ask for support.  There's ALWAYS at least one in each
    group I've joined.  When it's been a boyfriend - he doesn't last....
    when it's a husband.....the stress on the marriage is terrible.
    
    Try once again to talk it out ------- or..........your choice re:
    the relationship.

Since Jude in .0 asked for input from both sides here's mine. I am also
concerned about fitness and health, and as far as I can tell am fit and
healthy. I have a special dietary concern also; since I have high blood
pressure, I am on a salt-free diet. I feel that I'm very supportive of other
people's fitness programs or dietary restrictions.

However, there is one thing that bugs me and I was thinking abou entering
this under its own topic, but perhaps this will do. (This topic has been big
recently on soc.women, which is why I thought of it.) I get annoyed sharing
meals with women who think they have a weight problem when actually they
have a body-image problem. I.e. they feel they're overweight, and the
solution is to diet and/or exercise in order to lose weight, when actually
they're not overweight, and the solution is to give up the obsession with
weight reducing diets and learn to enjoy eating, which is one of life's
great pleasures.

So perhaps I'm one of those "tempters" referred to in .0; although I don't
offer my friends M&M's I might offer them some confections that I've made
myself, for myself (with no salt of course, and generally with 1/2 the
sugar.) I might offer beer and pizza and salad, which sounds like a perfectly
OK meal to me, covering all 4 basic food groups. I think wine with dinner is
the perfect combination, if the alternative is dinner without wine or wine
without dinner.

I'm especially annoyed if I've done the cooking myself. I regard cooking as
something of a craft and yet something of an art, and when I've gone to the
trouble to plan a nutritionally balanced meal, acquire fresh ingredients,
prepare and cook it to the best of my ability and present it in a
comfortable setting that's conducive to proper digestion, it really bugs me
when my guests or companions say "I'll just have lettuce leaves with vinegar
please." I go the the trouble to compose a symphony and you'd rather listen
to a 60-cycle hum?  Get out of my sight you worm!  

However, I'll allow that maybe I'm the exception to the rule and that there
probably are those who are threatened by women who care for themselves, in
the sense of attending to their own needs for exercise and food, and in the
sense of putting their own needs above someone else's comfort.

don.

All right, I'll 'fess up too. Having had the benefit of two Jewish
grandmothers, and coming from a family of skinny people, I can't understand
anyone's not eating constantly. It's even hard to understand a person's
*need* for exercise.

I've learned to cook a little differently, and not (seriously) say, "Eat
this last mouthful, it's good for you!"

					-- hs

    re:  .14
    
    Exercising is not necessarily just for the body, I do it because
    it is a great stress reducer.  I feel better mentally and physically,
    and it certainly increases my energy and vitality.
    
    Maybe that can help you "UNDERSTAND a person's need" for exercise!

    Some advice from mom...
    
    Either make your dietary restrictions known in advance, or learn
    to gracefully accept the effort that went into preparing the meal.
    To not accept food or drink offered in a persons home is an insult
    in many cultures.  I suspect it's related to showing your host/ess
    respect and trust.  The inverse, Knowing and respecting a guests dietary
    restrictions is the host/ess' responsibility.
    
    Personally, with all my allergies, I tend to use my roomate as a
    taste-tester.  So much for Emily Post :>)
    
    maureen
    

    re: .13
    
    You are so right about body image.  
    
    How many times has a reasonably slender friend (always female) 
    groused about her weight.  It is my duty to say, "ah, gowan, you're 
    skinny as a beanpole", just as she is obliged to deny I have
    a boring hair.  
    
    Sometimes this is called 'asking for reassurance', and it does seem a 
    waste of time, except that we're friends, so we put up with one 
    another's (relatively) harmless obsessions.  
              
    Sometimes it is called 'pointing out your (supposed) faults before
    someone calls you "Thunder Thighs"'.  It is a companion piece to
    a self-denigrating sense of humour.  This seems to me a deeper problem.
    
    Worst of all, sometimes it is called anorexia.  I had a roommate once 
    who was seriously anorexic and that was painful for all of us living 
    in the suite.  This was before anorexia started getting a lot of media 
    attention.  We *knew* she needed help but had no idea where to ask.  
    We couldn't even appropriately define the problem.  
    
    Helen
                                       

    re.  slender people who grouse about their "diets" and "weight
    problems"
    
    I am slender, but I stay this way because I eat carefully -- so
    people bug me about eating yogurt and celery sticks for lunch. 
    "Go ahead, have a greasy hamburger and chocolate cake, you're thin,
    you can eat it."  "Why are you eating that stuff -- you're already
    thin."  And if I say, "I eat this way to stay slim" some people
    are offended -- like my self-discipline reflects in some way on
    them.
    

    Eating right, for me has changed my energy level and disposition.
    I cannot eat chocolate cake or lots of sugar because it causes
    depression.  I have a sensitive stomach and greasy foods cause pain.
    
    People will say to me "One piece won't hurt..."
    
    At 48 I have a tremendous personal desire to be fit.  If I do not
    take care of my body right now I might not enjoy my retirement.
    Clearly I should have done this all my life but I feel I have one
    more chance.  
                
    Fitness will be a way of life for me and I will be comfortable with
    people that have the same goals.

    I've just passed the age at which I can no longer be trusted (30)
    and I've noticed a dramatic change in the way my body reacts to
    food and exercise. I know your body changes as you get older, but
    all at once?  For the first time in my life, I worry about being
    fat ('cause it doen't feel good), and having a lot of trouble staying
    in condition. I think I also know the brand names of every arthritis
    medicine on the market.
    
    Has anybody else experienced anything similar?  Maybe I just going
    crazy :>)
    
    Maureen

    No you're not crazy. My whole metabolism changed when I reached
    30 and I started gaining weight.

    As I neared every milestone (turning 21, getting a real job, turning 25,
    and then 30), people warned me that I'd start putting on weight, that my
    once super-fast metabolism would change. I've always been well
    under-weight, so that was a significant threat.
    
    It never happened, but lately (at age 31.5) there's just a little more
    of me around the middle than there used to be, and I am no longer
    interested in that last little nosh at around 10pm.  My mouth says,
    "Hey, let's eat something!", but my stomach says, "Why? Who's hungry?".
    This is a new discussion, and I don't like it. 
    
    Looks like my friends' prediction is finally coming true. 

						-- hs

    My wife and I are 34 and neither of us has noticed a difference.
    We have known each other since we were 18 and we still carry on
    like kids sometimes.  We aren't as wild as we used to be, but we
    still go hiking, have snowball fights (yesterday as a matter of
    fact), we wrestle, chase each other around the house, water ski,
    and such nonsense that we 'old people' shouldn't do.  We get out 
    of shape because we work different shifts and only see each other 
    on weekends.  Her philosophy is that you are only as old as you
    feel and she doesn't feel old.  I haven't gained any weight since
    high school.  She has gained a little bit because she can't be as
    active as she would like to be (she goes to school and works). 
    I know a lot of people who have a lot more gray hair than I do and
    they are in their 20's.
    
    I think it depends on the person and their lifestyle.  Do kids make
    you age faster?  We don't have kids.  Worries (financial, sexual,
    personal, etc.) will age you faster.  Lack of exercise will make
    you *feel* old and run down.  I always feel better after a day of
    hard work.  A good diet helps, I feel old if I don't eat right.
    Go out and do something that makes you feel young again.  Don't
    hang around with people who try to convince you that you are old.
    Find friends who are young and do things with them.  Age is
    a state of mind.  If you convince yourself that you are old, you
    will be.  
    
    I hope I'm not too far off of the subject.
                                              
    Spence

    re .23:  I am in my mid 30's and look and feel young, and my mother,
    who's in her mid 60's, puts ALL her friends to shame.  Yet, I had
    LOADS of gray hair before I turned 30, and she started in high school!
                                   

    
    re:.23
    
    I think gray hairs are more genetically determined than age determined.
    Granted one probably gets grayer as one gets older,  but graying
    early does not equate aging early.  
    
    alison
    

    re .23 and .25
    
    I think grey hair is related to working for Digital.
    

    Then why is my sweetie *loosing* his? :-)
    	Mez

    re .1   The obsession I might have would be eating healthy food and 
    this includes meat. How can one be obsessed about eating the right 
    foods? I eat several times a day and compared to what I used to
    consume this would be enough to feed two people.  But its all the
    right types of food to eat and much better for me.
    
    re .11 You are 100 percent right about one glass of wine leading
    to another.  So why start in the first place when you know dam well
    that the bottle will be emptyed and 'so' won't be the one who drank
    it all.
    
    re .13  If any man was to cook me dinner (which is an experience
    that I would love to go thru) I would think that it would only be
    wise if he asked ahead of time if I had any restrictions in my diet
    or if there was anything I would prefer not to have.  True he is
    do the cooking and the preparing but I would hate to see him go
    thru all the work of preparing a wonderful dinner and have his 
    guest turn it down because she either did not like it or her diet
    does not allow it.  I can understand how anyone would feel if 
    the 'so' prefered to eat just lettuce leaves and vinegar for a 
    salad.  That's not a salad thats boring and there is nothing
    worse than boring food.  Besides were human and not rabbits.
    
    Jude
    

    Re .23 and replies referring to it.
    I didn't mean to say that gray hair comes from being old, but rather
    that some people who have gray hair *think* they are old.  The point
    was that just because you have gray hair doesn't make you old, as
    witnessed by people who are younger than myself and have a lot more
    gray hair.  Its all a state of mind.
    
    Spence

    yes, my aunt's hair turned snow white when she was ~20.  White and
    gray hairs, while they may change your image, do not necessarily
    reflect your age (and please remind me of that when I find my first
    one...)
    
    Lee

    A while back someone mentioned that perhaps slim folks who constantly
    say they are fat need reassurance. I say they just want you to say
    how good they look. I for one (as a healthy size 14, comfort not
    speed you know :*)) feel offended when some size 8 lady talks to me
    about how fat she is - if she's so fat at size 8 what is she implying
    about me? I won't play that game by cooing "oh no, you're just right"
    let her play that game with someone else. Liesl

    There is a new conference on weightloss (SRFSUP::WEIGHTLOSS) which
    seems to have a pretty good representation of both women and men.  So far
    there are about 30 introductions.  Several people have shared
    experiences with different diets, including some pretty extreme
    ones.  There are also some good recipes.

	re .31 

		Right on. Mark Twain said it nicely:

		"He who rejects praise seeks it twice."

	In a more political vein it's interesting to note the connotations
of the fitness thing. In earlier times when most folk faced scarcity and
long days of hard outdoor work the desireable appearance among
the upper classes was full-figured and almost anemically pale. Now that
the 9-5 masses are chained to their desks indoors a hard bod and a
good tan are 'in.'

	In reply to base note sounds like another aspect of the SuperWoman
bind...be lean & fit, but don't take any time away from *me* to get/stay
that way...