Conference turris::womannotes-v1

While we're at it, how many women have "said no when they meant yes."

Martin.

    Just in case anyone thinks I'm a disinterested party ...
    
    It happened to me in a relationship that was on the rocks.  We had
    been intimate, but were spending less and less time together, and
    most of it quarelling.  The man in question showed up at my place,
    very late for an evening together.  He could tell I was upset (I
    told him so), and decided to use sex to demonstrate he could do
    what he wanted in the relationship.  He was bigger and stronger
    than me, and although I protested and resisted, I believe he would
    have hurt me if I had fought him.
    
    I never saw him again after this.  
    
    G
    
    

    
    I don't see any difference between someone you know raping you and
    someone you don't know.
    
    If you refuse and are physically forced into it, it is rape.  The
    "date" part comes from the fact that this happens on dates sometimes
    or happens to a woman who knows the other person (or is even married
    to the other person).
    
    It doesn't make it any less of a violent act.   
    
    However, I get the impression (not necessarily from this notes file,
    and I may be wrong) that some people consider a person who submits to
    peer pressure as being raped. 
    
    I don't think I understand,  Do you consider a person who does not
    refuse verbally and physically, (for some fear other than violence
    or death) to be raped.
    
    I feel the difference is not in the act, but in how it is dealt
    with after it happens.
    
    Paul

    Obviously (?!) I don't expect I shall ever be raped by a woman in 
    the same way as a woman can be raped by a man.  No man has tried
    to rape me either,  although men have in the past tried to persuade me
    non-verbally (!) to have sex with them.  I have dealt with it
    on the spur of the moment and cannot even remember what I did to
    dissuade them,  except that where I wished to be I remained frriends
    with the person.  But basically I don't have fear.  Only the will
    to maintain my wishes concerning myself;  with which I have always been
    successful.
    
    But the real point I want to address is the idea of the "accidental
    rape",  i.e. "I didn't know she meant no!"  This I find unimaginable
    for myself.  In my experience people are open books and you need only
    to learn  their language,  in which they write or are written.
    If a man continues to doubt then I think he must have a communication
    problem with the other person needs address first,  and that doesn't
    usually mean verbally but can mean a whole host of things I find difficult
    to summarise...
    
    In the words of a song that comes to mind for no reason:
    "And it may not mean 'yes' or 'no' but: MAYBE..."
    (From an album by Peabo Bryson and Roberta Flack)
    
     Simon.

>While we're at it, how many women have "said no when they meant yes."

    What is the purpose of this question?  If a woman says no, then believe
    she means no.  Even if ten women answer this question that they said
    no when they meant yes, there will be at least that many more who
    really mean no when they say no.  If you're looking for a chorus
    of "yes, I said no when I meant yes" you won't find it here.  And
    what are you trying to do?  Get us all to say that so that you can
    try to coerce a woman who says no that she really means yes?  (because
    all the women in Womannotes said they do it?)  Shame on you (if that is
    your intent).
    
    I've never done this.  I think it's far more common that a woman
    says yes when she really wanted to say no, in order to avoid a
    confrontation.  I've done it.  Not rape exactly, but who has the
    power in this situation?
    
    	-Ellen

    
    
    No means no, I will let you know very clearly when I say yes.
    
    _peggy
    

    I would suspect a lot more women have said yes when what they
    really wanted to say was no.

	The day we discuss this subject and someone does not use the
    argument...but does "no" really mean "yes" we will have finally
    convinced our male friends of the impact of rape on a woman's 
    mind.
    
    	It happened to me over 10 years ago and the feelings I have
    still remain.  Damn it don't question my motives or my morales if
    I say no don't do it!  
    
    	I was offered a ride home from the local pub by a man that I
    had known casually for years.  He was a womanizer, very good looking
    and I assumed a friend as I knew his wife.  
    
    	I was so angry, I got away and was able to drive the car.  We
    were in the front seat.  I drove recklessly because I was sure he
    was going to do something awful and I had to get away.  I can 
    remember the look of terror in his eyes.  I think he thought he
    was going to die.  But I remember the feeling that I would rather
    die than submit to that man.
              
    	He died about five years later.  I should have gone to his wake
    as I was acquainted with his wife but I could not do it.  
    
    	The inability to wash away this invasion of my body is still
    with me.  
                                              

I must say I find the personal attack in 189.5 objectionable.  The
author does not know me, or my opinions or beliefs on this or any
other matter.  To suggest that I now believe -- or have at any time
believed -- that "no means yes" is a demeaning insult.

For what it's worth, when I moved to Sweden in the mid-sixties, a
friend pointed out (in a general discussion at the student union,
and not to me personally) that "the Swedish freedom is the freedom
to say 'yes.'"

I haven't forgotten that.

Martin.

    I was 23 and separated when this happened.  I would have questioned
    a lot more things about the incidents that led up to it now, but
    this is what happened then.
                                                            
    I had moved out of the apartment my ex and I had shared, but was
    there one day getting some of my belongings.  
    
    A man called asking for my ex-husband.  The man asked if he was the same
    David X who went to such-and-such high school in New York State.
    I said no, and that David had grown up in Massachusetts,and would
    he like his number at work.  He asked if I was his wife.  [At that time
    the question didn't seem insulting to me...] I said that we were
    getting divorced, expecting the conversation to be over.
    
    He was pleasant and friendly, and I was somewhat vulnerable since
    I was lonely.  We chatted for a few minutes, and I thought no more
    of it.  He seemed genuinely sorry that David wasn't the person he
    thought he was.
    
    This man then looked up my last name (same as David's at the time)
    in the UMass employee directory, and called me at work "to see if
    it was the same person he had enjoyed talking with so much".  Once
    he had my work number he called on a regular basis, asking for dates,
    and wanting to talk.  I said no a number a times, but finally agreed
    to go out to dinner.  I wasn't dating anyone else right then.
    
    We had mediocre, somewhat boring dinner.  I wasn't particularly
    attracted to him, and assumed that was the end of it.  He asked
    if I wanted to stop by at a friend's party since it was still early.
    I thought that would be safe enough.  I was very clear that I didn't
    want to get into a bad situation with this guy.  I thought I was
    being clear and assertive.
    
    We went to a house in a crowded student neighborhood and went up
    a flight of outside stairs to get to the apartment.  I went in,
    and there was no one else there.  He shut the door behind us and
    stood between me and the door.  There was almost no furniture there
    either, and my instincts went on alarm.  Too late to do much good.
    
    I said, "What kind of party is this?" and he said,"I didn't think
    you'd come here unless I said it was a party."  I felt instinctively
    that it would be wrong to get too obviously angry, and said "But
    you didn't know that.  You could have asked me."
    
    He walked over to me and pulled me down on the floor and started
    mauling me.  I was terrified, but calm.  He was much bigger and
    stronger than I was, and I knew that he was looking for a fight
    from me to excuse violent behavior on his part, so I basically went
    limp and numb.  He kissed me, and I made sure it was like kissing
    a pillow by not responding.  He started to get mad, and called me
    a tease.  Said I wanted sex, and had led him on.  Said that I never
    would have gone to dinner with him if I didn't want it, and that
    I had NO RIGHT to back off now.  
    
    [This was my first experience of this kind of manipulation, and
    I was appalled.]  Then he said that all divorced women were sluts
    anyway.  I kept not responding, and he started choking me around
    the neck, and saying "Open your legs, you slut", and trying to rape
    me.  
    
    I decided to try one more thing before giving up.  I said in a very
    calm voice, "You don't really want to do this.  It's no fun unless
    the person is willing.  You are smart and personable, you don't
    have to force anybody."  He was so surprised that I caught him off
    guard, and startled him.  I knew he was listening to me, so I went
    on.  I kept affirming him, and pointing out (while on my  back on
    the floor with my dress up around my neck, and his hands still around
    my neck..)that it wasn't fun if you had to force someone.
    
    It worked.  He had slobbered all over me, and ripped off my underwear,
    but he never managed to "penetrate".  He lost his impetus, (and
    his erection) and the whole thing was over.  I was still totally
    calm, and much wiser about the ways of [some] men...
    
    The crowning blow came when he offered to walk me home.  He said
    it wasn't a very good neighborhood.(aargh!!!!)  I refused, and left
    calmly and quietly.  I got home and completely fell apart, and shook
    for about ten hours after douching, bathing, and throwing away my
    dress.  (I wonder if this is a cleansing ritual for us after such
    an experience?) 
    
    Writing about this has been very upsetting, so all for now.
    
    Holly

    
    While I hardly consider myself a shining example to the male gender,
    at least I've never sunk that low.  For me to take a woman by force
    would be rape, plain and simple.  It would not matter if I married
    her, or what she had led me to believe.  If she said, "I don't want
    to, and I made her, then I have raped her."
    
    What a world we live in.
    DFW

    re: .11
    
    Martin, if you think what you got before is a personal attack, then
    you should know this:  I believe that encouraging damaging stereotypes
    such as the "no means yes" should be a crime, and anyone who willfully
    encourages such thinking, thinking which has caused terrible heartache
    and physical pain to so many women, should be punished by law.
    
                        Carol

I have neither encouraged, nor claimed, that the phenomenon (as opposed
to the myth) exists.  The myth does exist, however -- and it has
apparently touched a nerve among the participants.  It is quite possible
that the myth was started by a "date-raper" to justify his actions;
it is equally possible that women who play "hard to get" have contributed
to the myth's persistance.  The way in which this myth is spread,
and the way it prevades American popular culture (tv, movies), would be an
interesting topic for discussion, but I would certainly prefer that
the discussion be somewhat less aggresively personal.  Before blaming
me for the myth, watch a week of tv and note the number of incidents
of "reluctant woman giving in to virile suitor."

What I am guilty of, and apologize for, is introducing an irrevelant
topic into the discussion of date rape.  Perhaps the moderator could
create a new note to separate the two topics?

Martin

    re .7  "We are all speaking English aren't we"
    	- yes but not exclusively was my point.
    also .8 "more say yes when they mean no"
        - I think what you are getting at comes under the heading of
          assertiveness and I'll open a topic on this when I finish
          this note.
    re .7/8  I have never been in a situation where I was unclear what
    a woman wants.  But in certain cases I think I was right to persuade
    a woman that she meant yes because there WAS a non-verbal language
    of YES that was to me unmistakeable.  Let's make no mistake,  when
    she said "no" she meant "maybe" but it was a womans prerogative
    and she changed her mind so it happened after all.  In this
    particular case she hated men,  or so she said,  due to some bad
    experiences I presumed.  I could not accept that simply because
    I was a man I should deserve to be categorised with whoever she
    had had problems with.  I took the view that it would not be long
    before she realised I was someone else i.e. me and that she should
    listen to what she felt not what she thought,  and for the record,
    I was right.  Later I ended the situation over an entirely 
    separate issue,  which I won't discuss on such a public medium.

    re .10  I feel sorry that you still regard this as the most significant
    relationship.  For me my most significant relationship also went
    wrong,  but I feel I have to take the view that the future is more
    significant than the past and that there must be the opportunity
    to grow.  A big danger seems to be wanting some things in each new
    relationship that you had in the significant one that went wrong and
    it took me a long time to completely cure myself of this way of thinking.

    re .11 I hope that in .4 my addressing the question of yes and no did
    not cause the writer of .5 to misconstrue .3.  I was dealing with
    an attitude that has nothing to do with specific people in this
    conference and I feel I must state that in my view the writer
    of .3 was indeed only raising a question and not stating the opinion
    suggested in .5.  However I can see that .4 could have for
    psychological reasons have affected the way in which .3 is understood
    and for this reason I must apologise for overlooking this fact of
    psychology that perhaps I could have prevented had it occurred to
    me before.  This is another reason why we cannot claim that we all
    speak English!  Apart from unintended inferences,  the order notes
    appear also affect the way things are understood.  And what is
    understood appears to be what is written!

    Simon.

    I remember saying yes once when I really thought I was in love and
    going to have a future with this particular young man. I was very
    young and rather niave. He made it plain afterwards that I was used
    goods and dropped me, he wasn't even nice about it! It hurt
    for a long time, and I definitely became more assertive afterwards.
    I do think a lot of young women say yes when they mean no inside
    because they are afraid that they will loose the guy, and then they
    loose him anyway. One book I bought my daughter was "You Would if
    You Loved Me" which is a collection of answers to that rather common
    ploy (at least with younger men.)

set flame/high

Re: 11

> "the Swedish freedom is the freedom
> to say 'yes.'"

So what?

THE A WOMAN'S FREEDOM IS THE FREEDOM TO SAY "NO"

    Having recovered from writing about the incident, to answer the
    questions in 189.0
    
    Coercion?  Nothing blatantly violent, I said I didn't want to f***
    and expected them to be human.  I pulled out all the emotional ploys
    I could to make them remember that I was a person with feelings
    and not an object.  Well, by the time I realized they weren't human,
    the _threat_ of violence was implicit and there were a lot of them.
    
    Traumatic?  Yup.  too, too, too traumatic.
    
    How would I help others?  Not the way the first "feminist" *I* talked
    to did:  she jumped in with a million questions about why I didn't
    poke eyes or kick.  Made me feel like it was *my* fault for not
    preventing it.  Now when women tell me of their rapes, I say that
    no matter what the fact that you didn't want to but had to makes
    it rape.  If you felt forced to say yes and felt dirty inside and
    out when it was done, that is a RAPE and the fault of a lot of things
    but not the individual sufferer.  Many rapes are avoidable, but
    I can understand not wanting to spend all of your time avoiding
    those situations because you would lock yourself in your house and
    never talk to a man again, even over the phone.  Not the most practical
    of situations.
    
    re: getting pursuaded -- PLEASE don't do it, men!  Even if she felt
    maybe, she is likely to feel safer and more secure in trusting you
    if she knows you will never violate a no, and that she won't be
    asked "why not?".  That is a safety that is hard to get and SOOOOO
    valuable when you have it.
    
    
    As a side question, have the men reading this note ever felt pressured
    to perform when they were physically able but not thrilled with
    the idea?
    
    As far as the post-rape "purge" (endless self cleaning) goes, it
    is a natural reaction and VERY common (sorry, no stats).  The police
    are always saying not to do it until you've seen a doctor and/or
    the police because you'll lose all evidence.  After my incident,
    I felt doubly stupid after the purge, "I did everything you're not
    supposed to do: blamed myself, took a bath, got VD,..." etc, etc.
    
    But I did feel better when there were no more remnants of those
    icky people.
    
    Lee

    I have a question which I think is related to this topic.
    
    When a man asks a woman, "Would you like to come in for a drink?"
    is the woman supposed to UNDERSTAND that what he really meant was
    "Would you like to come in and have sex?"
    
    Or -
    
    When a man driving a car says, "Want to pull over and smoke a joint?"
    does that really mean, "Want to pull over and screw?"
    
    Or - 
    
    When a co-worker while having lunch together asks, "Want to stop
    over and take a tour of our (him & his wife's) new house?" were
    you supposed to know that what he really meant was, "Want to
    come over to the house and have a quickie at lunch?"
    
    What invitations should be taken literally and what invitations
    should a woman just *know* mean "have sex"? 
    
    Lorna
    
    

    Disconnected anecdotes:

    1)  I  once  had  a  girl  firiend  who, when we got to the stage of 
    approaching intimacy said "no".  I believed her - the  following day 
    she returned my ring with a note saying I clearly didn't love her or 
    I would have persisted. 
    
    Now she might be the exception  that  proves  the  rule,  but  I  am 
    certainly confused over that one now.
    
    2)  I  was  once  "physically propositioned" by a man in a cinema. I 
    remember  exactly  what  I  did  to  dissuade  him  (he  was   still 
    unconscious when I left at the end of the movie).
    
    3)  the  earlier  story of the arabs reminds me of an incident I was 
    "almost" involved in - I went out with some customers (who were from 
    the  United Arab Emirate).  We went to a night club, and they picked 
    up a couple of young ladies.  At about this point I made  my excuses 
    and  left.  The following day they were arrested for the rape of one 
    of the women.  The story they told the police  nearly  landed  me in 
    jail too (in Britain "aiding and abetting" rape is actually the same 
    as rape - they said I set the situation up, which had it  been  true 
    would  have gotten me in DEEP trouble).  Without over generalising I 
    think that the trouble here is  that  culturally  some  arabs  don't 
    perceive this as rape.
             
    Incidentally,  "date  rape"  is  often  reported  as  being  "on the 
    increase": is this true, or is it that it has  always  happened  but 
    now the victims are talking about it more openly?
    
    /. Ian .\

    re.23 and if she says no thankyou is she believed?

    re: "it was your fault for letting it happen"
    
    This is, of course, complete drivel.  Rape is an act of violence
    by one human on another.  Does one invite being beaten?  Being robbed?
    Being murdered?  Nonsense.  One may fail to be cautious, one may
    exercise bad judgement, but to invite this sort of victimization
    you'd have to be insane.  Same goes for rape.
    
    Unless one is supremely capable at dealing out mayhem (i.e., one has
    been in a lot of fights) one's chances at coping with someone bigger
    than oneself are practically nil.  A good big person will beat a good
    little person every time.
    
    re: "does he really mean this"
    
    Well, maybe some people are actually playing that kind of game,
    but I'm not good enough at it.  Also, as I've said in other
    conferences, people who cannot communicate to each other that they
    want to do the horizontal bop (code words, semaphores, whatever)
    probably shouldn't be doing it.
    
    All too rational and black and white, I know
    DFW

    What is accidental rape?  "Gee officer, we were just sitting there
    talking and all of a sudden it jumped right outta my pants and into
    hers!"
    
    We women, (me specifically), have been accused in this notesfile
    of being paranoid because I believe every man is our potential enemy.
    Anyone of them CAN rape us if they so choose.  Our friends, our
    acquaintances, our lovers and husbands can simply strong arm us
    into anything they want AND OFTEN DO!  Date rape is THE MOST COMMON
    form of rape!  Very few rapes are random attacks by unknown men
    - VERY FEW!  We are MORE LIKELY to be raped when our guard is down,
    i.e. when we're with a man we THINK we know.  We are NOT raped because
    we walk alone down lonely streets at 3 a.m. dressed in halter tops as
    has been the prevalent societal attitude.
    
    Because of this we begin to learn, over time, that even the most
    seemingly inocuous situation can turn ugly very quickly and if it
    does, we have only our wits to assist us.  The situations presented
    here started innocently enough, didn't they?
    
    I have never been in such a situation but I am a "paranoid" woman.
    I never allow new dates to know where I live, but meet them in public
    places and STAY in public places until I learn whether they are
    open or guarded men.  Men who willingly play the "do you know" game
    are safe because they are not hiding anything.  Guarded men who
    do more staring than talking, or who get too personal too quickly
    are sending me clear signals.  I'm also not terminally "polite" and
    not willing to compromise my situation to avoid the possibility
    of hurting his fragile ego.  I met a man through the classifieds
    once and he gave me the creeps.  Trusting my judgement I did NOT
    need to continue the date but terminated it telling him we simply
    were not right for each other.  Were I trying to be nice, we could 
    have easily ended up leaving the bar for "dinner" and once in his
    car I would have been cornered.  That's just one guy.  I've met
    others.
    
    I reiterate that rapes are NOT committed by a small, traveling band of
    foaming maniacs but are committed by the men with whom we work, play 
    and live every day.  Men who feel sex and women are the same thing and
    if sex is their inalienable right then so must be women.
    
    I hope all men reading these sensitive and highly personal recounts,
    (I applaud their courage - I KNOW I wouldn't have it.  Such a personal
    and brutal attack would devastate me), really think about these
    situations.  Picture your wife/girlfriend/sister or daughter in the 
    situation, (the majority of them HAVE been in very similar situations 
    at least once), and think about what you would say to them.  "Don't
    ever go to a party with a man?"  "Don't ever answer the phone"?
    What?  How would you prevent them from being at the physical mercy of
    men?  Can you?  So think then where the real line between smart
    and paranoid really is.  Women are wary because they MUST be.  The
    consequences for a slip-up are life-threatening.
                         

    Sandy:
    
    I agree with you completely on this topic.  It frightens me and,
    even more, angers me, that there are all too many men who consider
    "date rape" (or any kind of rape) to be justified.  I fully understand
    your desire for caution, because you cannot tell beforehand if the
    man you meet is gallant and respectful, or someone who thinks that
    "all women are sluts".
    
    Unfortunately, this justfied paranoia hurts the good men, but we
    just have to accept it and be understanding of the women we meet.
    I just wish I knew what I could do to help women to feel at least
    as safe as I do wherever we go.
    
    					Steve L.

Courage is very often something you don't know you have till you have to 
go looking for it.  Friends helped me find it.  My ex-husband raped me.  
It happened a very long time ago.  It's hard for me to even believe it 
happened.  Mr. Wall (don't mean to be so formal, but I forget your first 
name) you're not being "too" rational; violence is never justified unless 
a life is at stake.

CQ

    This is a male speaking.
                            
    In regards to "No but meaning Yes."  As the saying goes, "Not my
    job, man, to figure that out."  As far as I'm concerned, "No " means
    "No."  When a woman has said "No" inside or outside of marriage
    I have always interpreted it as "No" and any man who tries to get
    into the mind reading business is sorely misjudging his talents
    (WHATEVER he judges his talents to be...).  As for "Yes but meaning
    No," I've never run into that.  I have run to remorse/regret, on
    a mutual basis.             
            
    By the way, men say or want to say "No" too.  Do you find that hard to
    believe? 
                                {                                
    

    
    RE: .21 

    >As a side question, have the men reading this note ever felt pressured
    >to perform when they were physically able but not thrilled with
    >the idea?
    
    Yup, several times. I went through with it because I was young
    & stupid & it was a matter of ego. The difference between that &
    date rape is that no one forced me except myself. There was pressure, 
    yes, a very nasty kind that insinuated I might not be man enough
    if I didn't follow through, but nothing even resembling some of
    the stories in this note. Almost no comparison except the feeling
    of being pressured into a situation you didn't like.
                 
    RE "No meaning Yes" 
    
    No such thing. If you try to read more into "No" you could be sadly
    wrong; and if you're right you've been manipulated. Either way you
    lose. 
                     
    In college I met a woman who did everything short of say yes, but I
    went with her implied no. She slept with my roomate the next night, and
    her response the following morning was "You had your chance"...Was I
    angry for not "asserting" myself? No -- angry that I had been used so
    meanly for whatever her reasons. It never affected my perception of No
    meaning No because I considered her a cruel abberation in what was
    otherwise an enjoyable period of my life. 
          

    
    My first name is Dave.
    
    DFW

    
    Why don't more women report "date rape" to the police.  I realize
    that it is difficult to convict someone of this, and society 
    has viewed women in such a position as just playing hard to get,
    so they must have really wanted it ...  But it would seem to me
    that I would try everything in my power to have the rapist convicted.
    
    Or is it the other way around, that women just want to forget it,
    and put it all behind them.   
    
    I think it would help a great deal if more women tried to convict
    rapists, even though it's a terrible experience,  this would most
    certainly make some men think twice.  You would be greatly helping
    other women by possibly putting one more rapist where he belongs,
    IN PRISON!
    
    Paul
    

    Ths is part of a reply that I put in SEXCETERA when we discussed
    date rape there. 
    
    I feel date rape is a particularly insidious form of manipulation
    of women. If he's a nice person, and you are pressured into having
    sex, even if you don't say "no", you have been date raped. I was
    scared to say "No". I was a very naive 19 year old, away from home
    for the first time. I was raped by this "nice" man to whom it never
    ocurred that I might not want to have sex with him, just because
    I had dinner with him.
    
    Rape in any form is not to be laughed at. It is the type of attitude
    expressed occasionally, which allows society to continue to view rape
    (particularly date rape) as "not such a terrible thing". I believe any
    time a woman has sex under some circumstances which cause her to feel
    uncomfortable about the consequences of saying, "NO", she is being
    raped. 

    I have been in that situation. I have been afraid of the possibility of
    saying "NO" and not having my date believe I REALLY MEAN NO. I have had
    sex with someone because I was afraid of being hurt, if I refused. And
    this was someone who I thought I knew, and felt comfortable with. 
                                             
    Tamzen

    
    re .35
    
    >any time a woman has sex under some circumstances which cause her to feel
    >uncomfortable about the consequences of saying, "NO", she is being
    >raped. 
    
    I think for more than one reason, the woman should always attempt
    to make it know that she is saying NO.  One reason is that if a
    woman is not making it known that she is objecting she is "legally
    not being raped".   That doesn't mean if someone has a gun to your
    head and you don't make an attempt to say no, that you are not being
    raped, ... it does mean if you are on a date with a man who has taken
    you out, invited you over for a "drink" and so on, and you do not
    make it know that you do not want sex ... he is legally not raping
    you.  Even if you feared that this man might become violent.
    
    Another reason is that although you might be a good judge of character,
    you might be misteaken this one time, this man might actually not
    know you do not want sex, or he might know, yet might not be up
    for a fight ... 
    
    Paul

    re .37
    
    Paul, I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but stating that
    a woman should always "make it known" clearly that she does not
    want sex seems to imply that a man always assumes she does!
    
    This is often a cause of date rape -- a man assuming that unless
    a woman tells him outright "no" that she wants sex.  At what point
    is it necessary to make this statement?  When you meet him in the
    restaurant?  When he calls for a date?  
    
    So the scenario may run -- they've spent several hours at dinner
    and he drives her home.  They walk up to the front door.  She has
    not said "I don't want to have sex with you", so he assumes she
    wants to and steps into her house and becomes sexually aggressive.
    If she now says "no", he may justify his gauche behavior to himself
    by saying "she really wants to" or "she's a tease" and go on with
    the rape because he has already committed himself.
    
    If you're not sure if she wants sex, or if she hasn't said so, ask.
    Don't assume that silence means consent.
    
    Gloria

    
    Re. 38
    
   >     So the scenario may run -- they've spent several hours at dinner
   > and he drives her home.  They walk up to the front door.  She has
   > not said "I don't want to have sex with you", so he assumes she
   > wants to and steps into her house and becomes sexually aggressive.
   > If she now says "no", he may justify his gauche behavior to himself
   > by saying "she really wants to" or "she's a tease" and go on with
   > the rape because he has already committed himself.

    First ,  I agree, one should not assume anything,  I had a math
    teacher who always said, when you assume you make an ass- out of
    -u- and -me .  Anyways, ... I think its being a little presumptious
    to say that if a woman says no, a man will go through with the rape
    because of his gauche attitude.  
    How about the woman says no, and the man says, OK maybe next time.
    
    I think since many men were brought up that they should take the
    lead in sex, they feel silence = consent,  many of us would agree
    that our first experiences with sex has been, we initiate something
    if the woman doesn't object we go on.  Actually not only our first
    experiences with sex, but many experiences with sex.
    
    > When is it necessary to make this statement.
    
    When the man attempts to have sex with you and you do not want sex.
    If you are afraid that all men will rape you after telling them
    you do not want sex, then you should not let yourself be alone with
    any man. 
    
    Once again, I must state my point,  that if you are raped, you should
    have the ability to persue legal action against that person.  If
    you did not attempt to make it clearly known that you object, you
    have no ability to bring legal action against that person.
    
    Also you may in some cases find that you are wrong, and the man
    does not wish to have sex with you against your will.
    
    Paul

    If any of you have seen the movie "When she says No", you may also
    question and I quote "how many times and how loud do I have to say
    no?  When I said no, I mean no".
    
    Although this is "hollywood", it just goes to show you that if you
    say no "once" and a guy forces sex on you (or a woman for that matter),
    you have a case in court (provided you go to the police and the
    clinics and the whole nine yards).  But, unfortunately, if you are
    raped and you "flush all the evidence away", you don't stand a chance
    in court.   Convicting the rapist will be a long drawn out process
    and the person raped will have to think really hard on whether or
    not they want a courtcase, publicity, the works.
    
    

    
    If you don't say no at least "once" you have no case at all,
    and could be libel for a counter suit.
    
    Paul

    This clinches it...I had no idea people raped like that
    people they work with and know...So no man can be trusted
    nor any woman feel secure. This explains the hate in so 
    womens' faces recently. This is the end of innocent courtship
    and romance as we know it...love between men and women IS
    really finished now...no matter how long known nor sterling
    the references...better to stay among one's own kind and hope
    this stops someday...

    re -1:  "This is the end of innocent courtship and romance..."
    
    You are looking at life through a woman's eyes probably for the
    first time and your horror is understandable.  Keep in mind though
    that these lessons are learned by women over the years, and even
    though the MAJORITY of men we encounter do exhibit the "me tarzan,
    you jane" mentality in SOME form, we have learned to live with this
    and if we're really strong, even still hope for love.  Many, many
    women settle for second-rate situations believing that it just doesn't
    get any better.  They find the LEAST offensive male and TRY to make
    it work with him.
    
    I don't think women feel this is the end of innocent courtship and
    romance, but rather this stuff is nothing new to us so in our minds 
    there never WAS such a thing as innocent courtship and romance.  Sure, 
    we're all dreamy-eyed teenagers.  Having been brought up on Cinderella and
    Sleeping Beauty we learn that passivity and pleasantry will win
    us a wonderful man for all time.  Then we start to meet men!  Almost
    every woman grapples with the disilluisionment early in life.  Some
    stay at this stage and grow hard and mean, deciding if they are
    just sex to men then men will from now on be just money to them.
    Some lucky women think deeper, look harder and probably are VERY
    fortunate to meet enough "good" men to give them hope.  Still, not
    many women think of the process of finding a life partner as "innocent
    courtship and romance".  Men on the other hand can continue to think
    of sex in romantic, fantasy images and pursue sex without the fears
    of self-preservation women MUST learn to have. 
    
    It's a tough game out there when you're in what begins to seem like
    a den of hungry lions and in the game of sex for women, you spend
    lots of time learning to find which lions you can safely pat without 
    EVER taking your eyes off ANY of them.
    

    For as many men as we have described in this note there are ten
    times more men that I can think of that are worthy of more than
    praise.  
    
    There are men that note that show feelings that years ago I might
    not have believed the opposite sex were capable of.
    
    And for the men we described I still have to show some pity, for
    they suffer the inability to understand their own bodies and the
    emotional needs they cannot satisfy.
    
    

    re.-1
    
    Hey!  Let's not malign lions here.  Maligning men I have no problem
    with (male speaking) since I subcribe to one of my economics
    professor's favorite sayings, "The ratio of a$$holes to non-a$$holes is
    always unfavorable."
    
    A Devout Leo
    
    p.s.  I take this discussion very seriously and sympathize for reasons
    which will remain private for the moment.  On the public side, every
    man has a STRONG vested interests in extinguishing this behaviour.
     First, for whatever the reason, it interferes in some way with
    all of our abilities to have a satisfying and nurturing relationship
    with a human being of the opposite sex of the same species.  Second,
    any individual who feels compelled or authorized to violate another
    human being will feel no compunction about violating any other being.
    

    re .43:
    
    While I will admit to shock at realizing the extent of the prtoblem,
    I will not buy the theory that 9/10s of us are at the mercy of
    our hormones. I've been celibate for nearly two years without
    any sudden urge to rape my female colleauges. Moreover I think this
    is the norm not the exception. As for most relationships being
    a transaction of money for sex, I think that is unadulterated 
    hogwash. Just take the time to read the male intros or take the
    trouble to ask married folk who are happy with one another...
    You make it seem that a "good" man is a 1 in 1.0e06 find...
    I readily agree that women must be more careful, but you needn't
    play the sex game if you find the odds so daunting. Neither of
    us play because niether of us is willing to tolerate further
    insultsd to our intelligence...it goes both ways. If the best I
    can ever hope to be to a woman is a transaction, I'd rather she
    exploited someone else. A pity you have experienced mostly 
    dishonorable louts, nevertheless they are not the majority. 
    We good men are laying low; that doesn't mean we don't exist.
    
    I wish to God we weren't having this conversation; lets at least
    not tar everyone with the sexist brush.

    re:.46
    
    Alright, time out, hold it.  No one is painting every male to be a
    lout.  This is a serious problem.  We are not so distant from the days
    when women, not to mention people of variant color, were chattel.  It
    took the U.S. almost 100 years to get from the Emancipation
    Proclamation to Brown vs. The Board of Education and Women in this
    country could not vote until the 20th century.  What I mean to say is
    that old ways die long and hard, and our culture and the cultures from
    which ours was derived approved of the type of behavior about which we
    have read in this conference.  Some of that stuff is still alive today
    and like the virulent disease that it is, deserves extinguishing.
                                                         

    re: .46  RANCHO::RAH
    
    What are you hearing in your head when you are reading this topic?
    
    >I will not buy the theory that 9/10s of us are at the mercy of
    >our hormones.  I've been celibate for two years without any sudden
    >urge to rape my female colleagues.
     
    I think it's already assumed by the majority of people in this topic
    that rape is not a lust motivated assault.   Go back and read again
    the rapes outlined in this file.  Good heavens!  Hormones, lust,
    male 'deprivation' has nothing at all to do with what we're talking
    about here.
    
    >As for most relationships being a transaction of money for sex,
    >I think that is unadulterated hogwash.
    
    Geez, me too.  I'd never say a thing like that and didn't read anywhere
    where anyone else said a thing like that either.  Most relationships
    are transactions to be sure, but they are subtle negotiations dealing
    with complex human needs and emotions and the majority of them are entered
    into in good faith.  I think you are misreading what I said about
    SOME women, when encountering reality after having been brought
    up on romance and fantasy, become hard and mean.  I think everyone
    knows at least one woman who is hell bent on "getting all she can"
    from men.  It's a reaction to this disillusionment that men are
    NOT prince charmings and there is no such thing as "happily ever
    after".   No, I think the majority of women are smarter and stronger
    than that.  These angry, get-even women have given up.  I think it's 
    a clear testament to women's strength that they continue to search in 
    what is clearly, IN GENERAL, a hostile environment, and they continue 
    to hope, and they continue to possess and demonstrate the ability to
    love and be loved when they DO find a suitable male.
    
    Sorry to all you Leos, no denigration intended to lions - it's just
    tough to offer men a situation akin to what women feel occasionally
    in the dating game.  Men turn to sex, love and romance for comfort
    and solace from a cruel world but if a woman doesn't already have a 
    trusted male then when she turns to sex, love and romance, she's still 
    in the cruel world and in fact in one of the most dangerous PARTS of
    it with the most serious, life-affecting types of consequences.

    >Neither of us play [the sex game] because...
    
    Maybe YOU don't play but where do get off stating that I don't?
    Understanding men and knowing the risks makes me ABLE to play and
    I enjoy the game very much because I keep myself safe as best I
    can.  Were I clinging to fantasy notions I would be an easy victim 
    for men and probably because of such victimization I would eventually 
    get pissed and decide the rewards were not worth the hassle.  But I'm 
    not like that.  Fortunately, (though I didn't often think so then ;-),
    I was brought up with two older brothers and all their friends and
    grew up right alongside the male mind.  I entered the dating arena
    feeling much better prepared than my friends and to this day I seem
    to look at men more as normal human beings like I am than my friends
    do.  I see dating as a search we all undertake to find someone we love 
    who will love us back AND understand us.  Love and sex are the very
    best parts of my life because that's the way I want it to be and
    that's the way I assume men want it to be for them too.  If/when it 
    isn't, it's because two people are not understanding each other or are 
    not accepting what they DO understand.  
    
    But this file is discussing date rape so I don't want to digress.
    I just had to set the record straight because you are confusing
    what IS with what we DO about it.  Awareness makes us BETTER people,
    (and happier), not worse.

    The response below is provided by a member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    =====================================================================
    
    This happened to me when I was about 15 years old.  I worked summers on
    a farm along with my second cousins.  My male cousin was about my age
    and we got along great, had mutual friends, etc.  However, quite often
    it happened when we were alone, that he would attack me and try to get
    his hand inside of my pants, inside of my T-shirt, he tried to get his
    face into my breasts, and lots of other things that I have long since
    suppressed and forgotten. He was pretty successful at this stuff too,
    being quite a bit stronger than I.  I fought, kicked, bit, tried to run
    away, etc.  It was a game to him or something.  He never penetrated,
    but the things I had to fight off! This happened several times.  He was
    forever making degrading sexual comments to me, other girls, and his
    friends.  When we were together with others or grownups, we got along
    well.  I never told anyone, of course.  Why did I put up with this?  I
    was young and needed the money and liked being away from my own family.
    I also very much liked the jobs that I was doing and the people I
    worked with.  This was the only unpleasant part of that experience. 

    I think he kind of grew up in the next couple of years, because after
    that one summer he didn't do that any more, but I noticed him trying to
    talk other neighborhood girls into having sex with him.  But I don't
    think he ever learned that girls and women are really people too. 

    He died in a car accident on the day of his high school graduation
    after he'd been drinking at the senior picnic. 

    I can remember when I was in the eighth grade......I was in this
    class where the "boys" could hardly wait for indoor recess.  THe
    teachers would leave the room and there would be a patrol guard
    (he was thirteen as well) and they would wait until the teachers
    were at lunch and attack the girls.  They usually would attack the
    girls with the largest chest......the would unbutton her clothes
    and feel her all over.....I was so horrified when this actually
    happened I couldn't move.   To watch my girl classmates get attack
    was horrifying.  I was lucky, yes lucky.....I had a "boy" friend.
    He was my friend since second grade and two of the guys came after
    me and he came between them and me.....and said he would punch them
    out.  He is the reason I still have faith in men.  I would get out
    of the room and find a safe place.  
    
    All us girls marched into the guidance counselors office....who
    was a man.....he heard us out and decided to give the boys a lesson
    in religion.  That didn't work it made things worse!  But the school
    still didn't get involved so we suffered until we got in High School
    where we found a more civilized society.   Since the high school
    was in other town - our "classmates" had to behave themselves!
    
    Bobbi
    

    .16 brought up a pet peeve of mine:

                     *She said No but her body said yes*
        
    set /flame=high
    
    Short of ripping off her clothes and throwing herself at you, I
    don't see where this is any where close to a fair decision on
    a man's part.  What supreme being gave a man the power to decide
    what a womans body is REALLY saying, especially if she is voicing
    an opposite opinion.  This is one more example of what young men
    are taught that a REAL man is supposed to do?  I pity the next
    person who reads my body instead of listening to what I am saying.
    
    To those men who believe this nonsense: I think you need your 
    learning experiences reinforced.
    
    To those who don't: I can't imagine how you've learned to be decent
    human beings in the midsts of this brouhaha (sp?)
    
    maureen_who_sometimes_can_still_breathe_fire

    Re: .52
    
>    To those [men] who don't: I can't imagine how you've learned to be decent
>    human beings in the midsts of this brouhaha (sp?)


    It's simple, really.  We just treat women as human beings, respecting
    their desires as we would like our own to be respected, rather than
    as objects or "conquests".  Sometimes we don't quite get it right,
    but we do try.  The end result, mutual respect and satisfaction,
    is well worth the effort.
    					Steve

re .22
    The "coded invitation".  It's not your fault if you misunderstood it.
    If he comes with the reply that you've made a commitment,  then someone
    that low would have tried some other entrapment.  Best to look for the
    fastest escape route as soon as you reckon he's this type of person.
re .29
    Yes I agree it is a mistake of society to believe that rape is essentially
    a Jack-The-Ripper affair.  I don't personally feel insulted by your
    attack on men.  The only real question is how a woman should assign
    the values "good-guy" and "bad-guy" to people,  and it seems there
    are a lot of different opinions.
re .30
    I do have one idea as a result of reading your reply:  How about
    a role playing game in which people take turns to be the woman in a
    situation and others have to play a role written on a card.  The
    aim is to decide whether the fictitious character being played
    by one of your friends is a good-guy or a bad-guy.  This would be
    a difficult game to play though.
re .32/.33
    Yes I agree that on the whole no means no.  But I find it difficult
    to write someone off as a person just because they said no when
    they felt yes.
re .42
    I know many women who have put their defences up to 100%.  But I
    don't know any who continued this way for any length of months,
    although I am sure this happens.
re .48
    I don't fit in with the "escape from cruel world" reasoning behind
    romance.  I guess it's because I am incurable optimist amongst other
    things.
re .52
    There was no question in .16 of actually _violating_ a "no".

    As the aithor of .16 I must say thank you to .53 and .54
    - I thought noone understood my point and I didn't want to
    go into the specifics of the real situations.
    
    (Perhaps my cliche' would be:
    "Sensitivity is the freedom not to transact in verbal YES/NO.")

    The question .52 raises in my mind is that in the less sensitive
    encounters,  irrespective of whose "fault" that this is so,
    how does a woman safely say maybe other than by no?

    Simon.

    I've been reading through this discussion and my feelings have ranged
    from wanting to do violence to extreme sadness. I have never, thank
    God, been in any type of situation like those described here (I guess I
    have just been very lucky) and even though I know I can't really
    understand all the feelings, my heart goes out to all of you that have
    had this great indignity forced upon you. 
    
    I've always been of an opinion that unless I explicitly say "yes"
    then assume "no"! Unfortunately, the signals we get from society,
    (ie TV, movies, etc) is that everyone must always want sex and those
    that say no only need a little more convincing.... (grrrrrrr). Every
    time I see a plot like that I get furious, but the plots continue
    to sell. And I don't mean to insinuate this is a recent occurrance.
    That stupidity in society has been around for a long time.
    
    Luckily, I think most people, men and woman, don't believe that crap.
    But, there are always going to be some that will be influenced and
    these are the ones that continue to do the damage. 

    As I said earlier, nothing like this has ever happened to me. I always
    thought I was being "careful" (like being alert when walking to my car
    at night) but, after reading through this note I realize that there may
    not be any "safe" situation. It's scary and it also makes me mad. I
    resent having to be on the defensive all the time (not necessarily
    walking around with mace in hand, but just having to be aware of it all
    the time) I resent that society places the blame on me as a female
    ("you must have encouraged it", "you didn't fight back hard enough",
    "you should have said NO more forcefully", "you said no but did you
    really mean it?"...) if I am violated and the louse that did it gets
    excused ("hormones", "boys will be boys", "can't stop once you get
    started"...). 
    
    And for those of you that say "arrest the guy", "press charges no
    matter what".... it isn't that easy. From the accounts I have read
    and heard about the victim gets  put on trial, not the attacker. If
    you even get through the police interview that is. And what about
    the conviction rate? Why go through all that pain again if the guy
    only gets a slap on the wrist..... (I personally feel that cruel
    and unusual punishment should be explicitly enforced in these cases
    and hopefully I would have the strength needed to prosecute if
    something like this happened to me). But, again, without being there,
    I can't say how I would react.

    There is no excuse for anybody to "assume" they know what another
    person wants, nomatter what the circumstance.
    
    janet b.

    A few years ago, I had a friend who was a very shy, reserved lady.
    She lived in the same four-plex I lived in.  She had met this 
    *individual* at a friends house a couple of times and after awhile,
    he had asked if he could come over one day to visit.  He was invited
    over for dinner.  I had gone shopping that evening, and ran upstairs
    to show her what I had bought.  After I knocked, I could hear
    struggleing with the door handle and muffled talking so I kept banging
    on the door.  She finally got the door open, her blouse was torn,
    and she could barely talk.  She kept whispering "get him out of
    here".  My street background came out, I walked up to this over
    6' man, and threatened him with all kinds of imaginative disfigurement
    if he didn't get his a** out of there.  He calmly left, with a promise
    to return.  I talked to my friend for awhile and calmed her down
    and we called the police.  When they got there, and found that it
    was *only* an attempted rape, they were not quite so sympathetic.
    I kept telling them that he had promised to return.  Low and behold,
    the ba****d did, with the police still there.  They arrested him
    when my friend kept insisting, dispite the rational of a possible
    misunderstanding(the police's definition of the attempted rape)
    and signed the complaint. 
    I went with my friend to a councelor's office for victims assistance,
    and she told us that I would be called as a witness after the fact
    and that my friend would have to divulge her entire sex life to
    the open court.  It was a hard decision for her, but she decided
    to go through with it.
    
    Ok, we go to court, mister prim and proper is sitting there with
    his new girlfriend (a 16 year old) and her father.  they are character
    witnesses.  His lawyer calls me first, I told what I had seen etc.
    and then they call my friend, the lawyer did everything he could
    to freak out my friend.  She held firm to the occurance also.  The
    character witnesses stated that the guy was an honest, christian,
    and he had never tried to rape the daughter, so all this attempted
    stuff was defermation of character.  
    Well, the jury went out, came back in, he was innocent of attempted
    rape, but guilty of 
    
    ***illegal touching of the body****
    
    Neither of us could believe it, but the court really felt that there
    was something wrong with my friend, if this same man could date
    a 16 year old and she didn't get raped.  

    My faith in the judicial system was shaken then.
    But I believe strongly that women have to stand up and proscecute 
    rapist.  for everyone of *them* that is not procecuted, another
    woman is held at risk.  
    
   
    Vivian
    

    <--(.57)  Goddess love us!

    Re: .57
    
    I don't think you can blame the "judicial system" for that, unless
    you want to include the way a victim gets put on trial.  The 
    members of the jury are the ones who decided on the verdict.  What
    they did was find the man guilty of a "lesser included crime" -
    which means that the charge of attempted rape (probably called
    something like "felonius sexual contact") includes several lesser
    offenses.  A jury is free to find a defendant guilty of a lesser
    charge if they feel like it.  Nobody tells them to do this.
    
    I know it seems crazy, but I was a juror on a knife attack trial,
    and we ended up going for "reckless conduct" because of extenuating
    circumstances.  My point is that without knowing everything the
    jury heard, it's very difficult to try to apply 20/20 hindsight
    to a jury verdict.  Jurors are ordinary people like you and me -
    and sometimes ARE you and me - so it's not fair to blame verdicts
    that you don't agree with on the court system.
    
    Let me make one thing clear - I am NOT condoning rape or attempted
    rape or any kind of attacks - but the effect on the attacker of
    the seemingly minor conviction may be much greater than you
    realize.  We also don't know what the sentence was - I doubt the
    man got off completely free.  If you disagree with the sentence,
    whatever it was, THEN you can complain about the courts or at least
    that particular judge.
    				Steve

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    Reading the previous replies brought back some bad memories and made me
    realize the reasons behind some of my actions today. 

    When I was in college, on Spring Break, I met a guy who asked if I
    wanted to out for a drink.  I agreed and we went in my car.  On the way
    back, he told me to go down the wrong street.  It turned out to be a
    deserted dead end that was on the beach.  When I realized that, I tried
    to turn the steering wheel, but he grabbed it and made me park the car.
    Then he tried to rape me.  I didn't know what to do.  He got  wired and
    impatient when I refused... then he just went off the deep end.  I
    tried to start the car, and he grabbed my hand and the keys,
    threatening to throw them in "the G*d*mn ocean" if I didn't give in.
    With my heart in my throat, I realized that I was dealing with some one
    who wasn't rational at all.  I didn't know what to do.  I knew I was
    shaking and I started to talk to him.  I promised him that we would go
    out the next night.  I told him that there was no hurry, that it would
    be better tomorrow. I didn't even know what I was saying.  For some
    reason, he agreed.  He returned my keys and let me drive him home.  Of
    course, I never met him for the next "date". 

    I have sort of "forgotten" that little incident, but it changed me.
    Now, I am very aware of my surroundings, almost  to the point of
    paranoia. In airports or large lobbies, I am always looking around me.
    I never make eye contact with men.  I sit away from  single men.  Plus,
    I don't know why, but I wear a wedding ring on my left finger when I go
    alone to airports, malls,  Boston, anywhere that makes me feel
    uncomfortable to be alone.  I am single, but wearing that ring makes me
    feel less likely to be approached. I guess we live and learn. 
                                                                 

    You know what strikes me?  Even though I thought I had mostly "gotten
    over" the rape, writing about it brought back all the original pain
    and anger.  I think for all the women describing their "incidents",
    tellng the story, yet again, brings back everything we have buried
    so carefully.  Perhaps this will help all of us to heal those wounds,
    rather than hide them again.
    
    And the men who can manage to stomach reading these stories, my
    hat is off to you; it must be an awful suprise to many of you.

    Lee

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at present.
                                                   =maggie
    
    ===================================================================

    When I went to college I lived in a co-ed dorm. One night I was walking
    around the dorm, doing laundry or something. I was followed. Then I was
    cornered. I got away. I went to the floor counselor's room and told him
    that I was being harassed. He took me back to my room. Then he attacked
    me. I was already so scared I couldn't move. And even if I did scream I
    wasn't sure that his friends might not come to his aid, not mine. I
    will never trust a man to get me out of a situation like that, not even
    a policeman or a clergyman. I used to be a very shy and meek person, it
    was easy for anyone to scare me, and plenty of men took advantage of
    that. I have since learned to defend myself. Caught in this situation
    again, I would kill or be killed if I could not manage to escape using
    what I know. 
  

    Gawd, reading all this makes me want to shake all men and say
    SEE???  NOW DO YOU SEE????!!!!
    
    You personally may may not be a sexist or dangerous man and you
    may not even be trying to catch side glimpses of our chests when we're 
    not looking but WE DON'T KNOW THAT!  What we know is what life teaches
    us and if one man can easily intimidate, overpower and put us in
    danger then we're FOOLS to put ourselves in any position that COULD
    allow a man such an "opportunity".
    
    Translate this now into what we must feel when we see men proudly displaying
    "innocent" pictures objectifying women and claiming it is their right
    to do so.  "Rights" is not the point.
    
    Maybe I'm cross-pollinating topics here but I think it needs to be
    done because these two topics, (this one and the Cheryl Tiegs one),
    are more than just related.
     
    Many women have and will be raped.  Something like one in five.
    But that doesn't mean that the other four have no idea what's going
    on.  They too get intimidated, threatened, pushed around, belittled,
    sniggered at, tricked, grabbed and on rare occasions loved.
    
    To cross-polinate with one more topic, one reason women are so much more
    monogamous than men because when/if they finally DO find a man they can 
    live with, they know they'd be FOOLS to willingly lose him and have to 
    jump back into the dangerous world of "men in general" to look for
    another one.  I know I wouldn't want to go back "there" and I consider
    myself a strong and wary woman!

    I was just reading in VTX that a woman was raped even though she
    told her assailant that she had AIDS.  She does have AIDS too! 
    I mean really!  How dumb are these guys!  Does it mean so much to
    overpower someone that catching a deadly disease doesn't matter?????
    
    bs
    

    These guys are NOT dumb.  Yes it DOES mean much to overpower
    someone.  I'd be willing to bet he chuckled at her when she told
    him she had aids, thinking to himself that this just reinforces
    what sad little weaklings, there-for-the-taking women are to have 
    to resort to [what he though were] lies.  I'm SURE he taught her
    a lesson but GOOD!

More likely, he thought she was feeding him a line.

In this case, the punisment may well fit the crime.

    I still say they lack in brain matter because if they had any brain
    at all they would realize that overpowering a woman doesn't make
    them a man!  
    
    re: 69
    
    The punishment may well fit the crime, but he may raped more "innocent"
    victims and give them that deadly disease before he kicks the big
    one unfortunately..........he didn't realize that he raped a prostitute
    who was diagnosed at having AIDS.....
    
    

    I'm sorry.
    
    I carefully kept out of the Cheryl Tiegs discussion.
    
    I believe that I've been as horrified by what I've read in the
    replies to this note as anyone.
    
    BUT:
    
>                                        What we know is what life teaches
>   us and if one man can easily intimidate, overpower and put us in
>   danger then we're FOOLS to put ourselves in any position that COULD
>   allow a man such an "opportunity".
    
>   Translate this now into what we must feel when we see men proudly displaying
>   "innocent" pictures objectifying women and claiming it is their right
>   to do so.  "Rights" is not the point.
    
    If I were to display pictures of nude, semi-nude, semi-clothed,
    or clothed women, the "message" would be that I find nude,
    semi-nude, semi-clothed, or clothed women attractive.  Period.
    I would not, of course, display pictures that someone found
    personally offensive; but there is no relation between finding
    an image of a woman aesthetically attractive (or erotically
    attractive, for that matter) and believing that that woman (or
    any woman) is only, or should be treated as, an object.
    
    Consider the following:
    
        I object to your Sierra Club calendar.  Look at all those pictures
        of trees.  Don't you realize that thousands of trees are cut
        down every day?  By displaying those tree pictures, you are
        objectifying trees.  You are saying that trees have no value
        except as objects for your enjoyment.  You are desensitizing
        people to the importance of trees, and ultimately contributing
        to deforestation.
        
        I object to your cat calendar.  Don't you realize the suffering
        that innocent animals endure in research laboratories?  By
        displaying ...
        
    Absurd?  Of course it's absurd?  
    
    Totally unrelated?  Well, at least most women have some choice in
    whether they are photographed, and get some compensation for it.
    The trees and cats don't.
    
    Once again, I'm sorry if I seem totally dense; but to me, the
    suggestion that I don't value women because I enjoy looking at pictures
    of women makes about as much sense as the suggestion that I don't
    value cats or trees because I enjoy looking at pictures of them.
    
    	-Neil

    Neil, I don't believe that's what's being said. I guess that's the way
    most people are (I am): I take in a discussion, and try to relate it to
    me. 
    
    We're not talking about why you (or men in this conference) hang
    "cheesecake" on your walls. We're explaining to you (or men in this
    conference) why we're put off by that cheesecake. 
    
    I, personally, will stand here (well, sit here) and say: I do not
    believe the men in this conference value their female coworkers less if
    they happen to enjoy looking at pictures of women. What I WILL say is
    that [the woman you quoted, sorry, I've forgotten your name] is right
    about how *I* feel too: the obsession with linking sex and the female
    body in *all* contexts is a symptom of the attitude of society that
    objectifies women, and that attitude has put me into alot of situations
    where I felt stripped of my person-hood. Again, we have put examples of
    those situations here for you (and men in this conference) to read and
    understand. 
    
    What we're doing is trying to share the experience. All *I* expect in
    return is for a man/men to say:Yes, I understand. I believe that your
    feelings accurately reflect your experience. I sympathize. And I'm
    doing my bit to help make this kind of attitude obsolete. As are we
    all. 
    
    In sisterhood (and personhood)
    	Mez

    re: 71
    
    Yes, Neil, you're confusing two points; 1. the reason you personally
    like to look at cheesecake pictures, and  2. the way they make women
    feel.
    
    What I think you're saying is that women SHOULDN'T feel the way
    they do BECAUSE your personal reasons are "innocent".
    
    And that's my point.  How someone feels is valid and whether they
    should or should not feel that way is immaterial - it doesn't change
    the feelings.  And further, that if you now KNOW about those feelings,
    then your personal reasons become somewhat less "innocent" and I
    think it's this desire to cling to the innocence plea that causes many 
    men to not WANT to see the effect on women.
    
    You've been told implicitly all your life by women in your sphere
    and now you've been told explicitly here how we feel.  The decision
    of what to DO with this knowledge is certainly yours to make but
    keep in mind that the "innocence" of it all, the "Disneyland for
    Big Boys" attitude is all in your mind.  

        This is going down the same rat-hole that the "Cheryl Tiegs"
        topic was dragged into, and the subject has nothing whatsoever
        to do with *this* topic.
        
        Neil, your point was very well put... too bad I couldn't
        think of such a neat example when I was still into wasting
        my time discussing the issue.  Though your phrasing doesn't
        appear to have made much difference.
        
        To everyone else, I'll be stupid and put in one more comment
        on the subject, 'cause I don't have the willpower to avoid
        it.  I never said nobody had any right to have opinions about
        pictures.  You're welcome to feel any way you want to about
        them.  What you *don't* have is the right to assume what
        my motivations and attitudes are on the basis of *your* opinion
        of *my* picture.  You err in thinking that your attitude
        is universal... and certainly you err in thinking that it
        applies to me.
        
        As far as I'm concerned, no picture (aside from a picture
        of my wife) has anything whatsoever to do with sex.  My
        appreciation (or lack thereof) of *any* picture is solely
        on aesthetic grounds.  If you don't believe that, tough.
        It's true.  
        
        You keep asking me to accept how you feel about the pictures...
        I never failed to accept that, no matter how much people tried
        to insist that I did.  All I'm asking is that *you* accept how
        *I* feel about them.  Apparently many readers are not capable of
        this. 
        
        Finally, if you want to reply to this tangent, take it to
        the original topic, don't do it here.
        
        	/dave

        Back to the topic...
        
        Don't think "all men" capable of "date" rape, and don't mistrust
        *men* for that reason.
        
        As an act of violence, aside from the emotional overtones and
        risk of pregnancy (and I do not mean to belittle either aspect:
        even the *word* "rape" causes a strong feeling of rage within
        me), rape is no worse a crime than any mugging.  Like slavery,
        the true horror of such crimes is the total violent imposition
        of one's whim on another.  Rape is not a crime of *sex*... it's
        a crime of *violence*.  The sexual aspect, if even present, is
        usually secondary, or even incidental.  As several people have
        said, rape appears more often to be used as "proof" that the man
        has power over the woman.
        
        You should never blindly trust everyone---or *anyone*---you
        meet.  But be *cautious* of the *abstract* danger, not fearful
        or angry at individuals who just happen to be male.  That
        grubby looking guy in the alley is as likely to mug you as
        rape you, and even more likely to just sit and watch you
        pass.  That means you should be cautious, *always*... but
        don't focus on *him* as a danger, personally, until and unless
        something happens (*notice* him, as a *potential source*
        of danger... but that's not the same thing).
        
        The *danger* is an abstract generic.  It's got nothing to
        do with any particular individual... regardless of sex (for
        that matter, would you really feel better about being raped
        by a woman?), or how nice or "seedy" they may look.
        
        It's an unfortunate fact of our society that *nobody* is truely
        safe anywhere... that's as much true for men as for women.  It's
        a scarey thought, especially walking through dark streets at
        night.  It might be slightly less distasteful to be beaten and
        robbed than to be raped... but I'm sure you'll excuse me if I
        don't sign up for the experience.  But treating every strange
        individual as an enemy because of it is paranoid, and not very
        healthy... or fair. 
        
        	/dave

    re -1:
    
    set flame=hot_as_hell
    
    >...rape is no worse a crime than mugging...
    
    I am sorry.  I *STRONGLY* disagree!  And I am sure that *any* woman
    who has been raped would also *STRONGLY* disagree.  A mugging is
    not an attack on a person's body, but on his or her belongings.
    Rape is a violation of a woman's *body*, that which she is.
    
    Nor do I believe that rape and mugging are even motivated by the
    same desires.  I would believe that if someone mugs me, they want
    my money for some materialistic reason.  I believe that if someone
    rapes, there is no gain except a woman's humiliation.

    re .74:
    Keep digging...
    
    	-Ellen

    Saying that aside from the emotional trauma that rape is no different
    than mugging, is like saying that aside from death that murder is no
    different than mugging.
    
    I would much rather be beaten to a pulp in a mugging than be raped
    and have suffered no *physical* injury.

    Being raped when he also physically hurts you would be physically
    worse, but sometimes perhaps emotionally easier because you are
    not as likely to be buying into society's "you led him on".
    
                  Carol

    May I request that cross-topic responses, especially those likely
    to draw fire, be placed with great care?  
    
    For example, I believe it would have been more appropriate to have made
    the link FROM the Tiegs string TO this one rather than the reverse,
    since this string is essentially uncontroversial (albeit horrific) and
    the crosslink was (as Dave very correctly pointed out) in its essence a
    continuation of that topic rather than this.
    
    Thank you all for continuing to speak clearly and carefully, and
    with respect for your (momentary) opponents.  I continue to marvel
    at how truly fine a community we have here.
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie
    

I wasn't going to respond here because I don't want to trivialize the
horror of the atrocities that are being discussed nor do I want to
tell the women who are relating this that I "... know how you feel..".

I DON'T know how you feel.  NO ONE can know how YOU feel, except that
someone else who has been raped might be able to understand the level
of the intensity of your pain.

But.............

To the reply who says that rape is no worse that a mugging, prepare to
be boarded, y' swabby!! You DON'T know what you're talking about!  Get
raped and THEN tell us what rape is!!!  Go get hit by a bus and
suffer through someone telling you "Oh, you CAN'T be hurt!! You didn't
get run over! You were only knocked down!".

As I said, I have never been raped.  I plan to never get raped, but I
don't know if someone else will have a different idea about things
at some point in my life.

I was ALMOST raped.  I was almost beaten into little tiny pieces by
a rather large, surly, and VERY angry member of the Longshoremen's
Association in Charlestown, Ma, at 2AM, after I had just effectively
gyped him out of about $500 in cash for working the night at time and
a half.

I was functioning as assistant terminal manager for Moran Terminal in
Charlestown.  He was hired for the evening as the foreman of 2 gangs
I had ordered from the labor hall to unload cargo containers from a
ship.  I signed their work sheets, I told them what to do, and I
had authority over what, if anything, they got paid.

I had a reputation for being a little terrier nipping at the heels of
the ILA in Charlestown because they were always out to get any money
they could and they'd lie and cheat and steal to get it.

The 2 gangs worked the ship, but the foreman disappeared off company
grounds.  I didn't see him for at least 6 of the 8 hours the gang
was ordered for.  I signed everyone's labor sheet but his.  He cornered
me up in the hallway on the 2nd floor, everyone had long since gone,
and he proceeded to demand his money.  Needless to say, I was really
aggravated and told him to, essentially (but in a polite way), drop dead!

He was about 6'4" all and weighed at least 250... and he was an UGLY
sucker.... and he grabbed my blouse and proceeded to tear it open,
threw me up again the other wall (my head HURT!!), but that was his big
mistake because I reached over and pulled the fire alarm.

Our fire alarms were directly connected to the East Boston division and
we had every known apparatus in the yard within minutes!!!  When he saw
I had pulled the alarm, he panicked and ran (luckily).... 

I didn't report him for a very simple reason:  he now became afraid of
me because I HAD something on him, something that could get him easily
fired from the ILA.... he wasn't afraid of jail, he'd been there
before, but losing a job like that really bothered him.   He was also
dumb enough not to realize that time would turn the tables and make ME
look bad.

Now, commonsense would tell you that I should have just signed the damn
labor sheet....

And then what?  I had to work with these guys... I had to keep my
authority... and I did.

After the night, tho', I never worked a ship alone.  I always had one
of the electricians or somebody from the night crew working overtime.

That wasn't an attack of passion... it was an attack of authority.

My authority was just smarter than his authority.

Karen

        .76 and others: again, you're not listening to what I'm saying.
        That really doesn't surprize me... it seems to be pretty
        common lately.
        
        A mugging is not an attack on a person's body?  Try reading the
        dictionary... "mugging"... "to waylay and beat severely, usually
        with intent to rob".  Note the use of "usually". A mugging, like
        a rape, is a physical attack upon your body. The fact that we
        (and as I said, I as much as anyone) tend to assign more
        emotional significance to a rape doesn't make a mugging any
        better.  Would you rather be beaten to death or "harmlessly"
        raped (i.e., no beating)?  I admit that given the choice
        I might well choose the former... but I hope nobody would
        try to justify that as a *rational* reaction.
        
        Rape is not the only sort of attack one has to worry about, and
        men are no more immune to violent attacks than are women (for
        that matter, men aren't even immune to rape).  Saying "women are
        in danger from men, and that's that" is therefore highly
        unrealistic. 
        
        People who really just want money usually don't mug: there are
        far less violent (plus easier and less dangerous) ways of
        robbing (even face to face). People mug for the same reasons
        they rape: as a way of convincing themselves of their power over
        others.  They're not separate issues: merely (slightly)
        different symptoms of the same problem.
        
        	/dave

    re .75
    
    Certainly, it is unhealthy for women to be paranoid about every
    "strange individual" they meet.  But, statistics show that most
    women who are raped are raped by men they know -- not by the guy
    lurking in the alley, but by their spouses, their friends, their
    tennis instructors, their landlords, etc.  
    
    Caution is always called for, by anyone, in certain situations,
    like walking down a dark alley at night.  What the women in this
    file are decrying (my opinion) is the need to be cautious in
    circumstances when we should be able to relax.
    
    The fact that I must be on guard with a man I know because he may feel
    that he has an implicit right to demand sex from me is not only
    frightening, but restricting.  

    <--(.81)
    
    Dave, men *are* more immune, in general, from attack of any kind
    by virtue of their (generally) greater size and physical strength.
    If a man physically attacks another man, both the likelihood of failure 
    and the potential cost (e.g., being beaten by one's intended victim)
    are much higher.
    
    						=maggie

    re: .81
    
    >men are no more immune to violent attacks than are women...
    
    Dave, you are wrong.  You're saying that the world is just as safe
    a place, (or as unsafe a place), for women as it is for men and
    you are just plain wrong.  I'm going to give you the benefit of
    the doubt and say that when you think about it, even you don't really
    believe that statement.
    
    I let you slide on the "rape is no worse than mugging" statement
    because it was so blatantly wrong I knew someone would take you
    to task and they did.
    
    Picture yourself a brand new prison inmate being led in.  Imagine
    all the other inmates lined up and checking you out.  Some smirk,
    some stare, some are dangerous, some are not.  What do you do? 
    What do you think?  What do you feel?  How do you react?  Do you
    become "paranoid"?  Do you try to get to know each individual inmate 
    and judge them as safe or dangerous only after the fact or do you
    just act wary of them all?  Do you "befriend" one for "protection"?  
    Do you feel like a prey animal?  Are you scared sometimes?
    
    Now imagine one dark night on an innocent trip to the game room
    for a little chess with the boys and you get there and find you're
    the piece and the game isn't chess.  Now what do you think?  What do 
    you do?  How do you feel from the next day forward?
    
    No, life to women is not exactly like prison to men, but it's the
    closest thing I can think of to give you the same feeling that women
    do get - a feeling of fear and powerlessness in the face of what
    seems like imminent danger.  Maybe nothing will happen to you -
    but the fear is there and you KNOW what can happen if you're not
    careful.
    
    Unlike a prison term, the feeling of fear, (or a less loaded term,
    wariness), is with women for life and unlike prison, it is where she 
    must search for love.  She HAS to interact with those she fears
    most if she's ever going to find love, but must be very careful in 
    the process that she doesn't get scarred too badly.
    
    (Would you object to an "artistic" picture depicting male homosexuality
    displayed in a burly inmate's cell?  Would you squirm when you saw
    it?)

        .82, .83: gee, at least it's really nice to have someone
        arguing about something I *said*!
        
        .82: It's a shame that you can't just relax *anywhere* without
        worrying about being attacked.  But in line with my analogies
        of street muggings to street rapes, consider the analogy
        of "date rape" with child/spouse/date abuse... unfortunately
        very common, and again something you're not safe from even
        at home.  Again, the problem is that some people feel they
        have to right to violate another, usually to prove their
        power.  Rape is simply one particular type of violence. 
        Men are more likely to use rape against women, while in other
        sexual combinations other forms of violence might be more
        likely: but that doesn't make rape something radically
        different. 
        
        The one issue that *is* slightly different in this case is
        cultural and educational... while most people in our society
        have caught on over the past hundreds of years that violence
        against others is wrong (not that this always stops them),
        a lot of people haven't yet realized that rape is violence...
        leading to the absurd circumstance that some otherwise non
        violent people might not hesitate to rape a date when it's
        "convenient".  I don't consider this a distinction, since
        I don't recognize any legitimacy in their attitude.
        
        Still, you're correct in that this does raise the risk women
        face from people they may have considered friends.  But I
        would consider this partly a problem of "making friends"
        too fast.  I seriously doubt you could know anyone very well
        for very long without noticing signs that a person might
        think this way.  A "first date" is really more of a stranger
        than a friend, and it's always safer to be cautious of
        strangers. 
        
        Giving sufficient trust to someone you've known only a few
        hours, or days, that you would allow yourself to be isolated and
        alone with this person, is generally not a bright idea,
        *regardless* of the circumstances, and it has little to do with
        either person's sex.  Trust people who have proven themselves
        worthy of trust: good relationships last a long time, and you
        can afford to spend another couple of months getting to know
        each other.  Don't assume that someone who treats you as a
        convenience is going to get better as you get to know each
        other... they probably won't.
        
        If you've known someone "for years" who feels that "he has an
        implicit right to demand sex" from you, and you let yourself get
        into a position where he can exercise that "right", that's
        purely stupid (although I'll grant the possibility that he was
        crafty enough to hide this belief from you all that time, it
        hardly seems likely).  If you let yourself get into such a
        position with a stranger, you were incautious at best. If you
        didn't "let" yourself get into that position, then it's not
        "date rape"... it's just rape (i.e., it has nothing to do with
        whether you "know him" or not). 
        
        I know, it's a real bummer that it's not safe to trust
        strangers.  It's too bad that it's not safe to get out of your
        disabled car at night to flag down help, or to hitchhike
        somewhere.  But them's the facts, and it's little if any safer
        for a man than for a woman (and a hell of a lot safer for a
        woman with a black belt in some martial arts discipline than for
        90% of all men, regardless of size or build).
        
        Which brings me to .83:
        
        I'll grant that many attackers are more likely to attack
        a woman than a man.  Our society still loves to characterize
        women as victims, and it shows.  But a mugger will attack
        a 98 pound guy in a conservative business suit a lot more
        readily than they'd attack a female body-builder type.  And
        size isn't the only factor in the *outcome* of an attack,
        in any case.  The man who taught Barbara and I Aikido had
        both legs disabled by polio as a child, and walks with leg
        braces and crutches.  He's thin and not particularly impressive.
        One of the fiercest Aikido experts he knows is a little old
        lady in her 60s or 70s, somewhere under 5 feet in height.
        Either one of them is a far more likely target for a mugging
        than I am... but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the mugger
        stupid enough to try.
        
        	/dave

    re .79:
    
    You may well be talking about the same natural foods store that
    I used to go there.  One visit to it after it changed hands with
    the guy's "honeying" me to death convinced me to never set foot
    in the place again.
    
    You certainly have a point about taking action on this type of thing.
    It reminds me of the current controversy over the donut store in
    Chelsea whose owner wants to have topless waitresses.  The Chelsea
    officials are trying to decide whether to let him do it or not.
    I don't agree with legislating against this. (Then again, if I owned
    a house next door, I'm not so sure).  *However*, I would absolutely
    *never* under *any* circumstances set foot in the place.  My fervent
    wish is that this guy do just this - get his topless waitresses
    - and just see his business go right to h***.  However, Chelsea being
    the kind of place it is, business would probably pick up real strong.
    Sigh.  We have a long way to go yet.
    
    	-Ellen

re: .83:

    Dave, men *are* more immune, in general, from attack of any kind
    by virtue of their (generally) greater size and physical strength.

You are probably referring to a man being (date) raped by a woman.
The most prevalent form of male rape is by another man (or by several
men).  Read any book on prison conditions for more information.

Martin.

        .84: that's what happens when you enter long replies, someone
        sneaks in.  :-)
        
        I won't bother with your first couple of paragraphs, since
        .83 fits them perfectly.
        
        As for your analogy... it's blatently flawed.  To mention only
        the *most* blatant of the many major flaws, a prison is a place
        where people of demonstrated violent tendencies are sent to
        separate them from society.  An assumption that most of the
        inmates are violent is a strongly justified paranoia, at worst:
        I would in fact consider it a very rational assumption until and
        unless individuals prove otherwise. The world is not a prison,
        and the general population is not so easily categorized. 
        
        In any case, in a prison you have no (or very little) choice
        about the issue of with whom you will associate, or when.  In
        real life you are not forced to go into a date's home, or invite
        him into yours. You are not forced to walk through dark streets,
        regardless of the fact that the alternatives are often
        inconvenient. You can, in short, take rational precautions,
        without forming a general paranoia against "men". 
        
        It'd be nice if you could walk anywhere and talk to anyone
        without any concern for your personal safety.  It'd be nice
        if I could play with little kids on the street without worrying
        that I'd be (in some sense) responsible for getting them
        into trouble by showing them that strangers are "OK".  The
        world ain't perfect, and everyone's just gotta do the best
        they can.  If you really feel you can't be safe without fearing
        and avoiding all men... that's your decision.  But realize
        that it *is* your decision, and not a very rational one.
        
        It *is* "safest" to never ever trust anyone... but it doesn't
        make life a whole lot of fun.  It's better to realize that most
        people are going to be OK... but don't trust them too far until
        you're sure.  In other words... be careful, but don't stop
        living.  If you choose to stop living, blame yourself.  Or blame
        "society", or "the world", or "god". You can even blame "men"
        (but realize that's sexist in the extreme), if you really want
        to.  But don't, ever, EVER, try to transfer that generic
        category onto *any* individual, even in the most abstract sense,
        unless that *individual* has *proven* to be worth of the
        "honor"!!! 
        
        	/dave

        In .88, the reference to .83 should of course be .85... dumb
        typos.  In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about
        them, either :-)
        
        	/dave

    re .88:
    
    I really do not see how you think you can get off giving women advice
    on how to act when you have not been in our shoes.  I found both
    of your long-winded replies telling us how to behave with men trivial,
    uninformative, and offensive.  This is something that each intelligent,
    adult woman must work out for herself.  Perhaps you did not mean to,
    but I feel you are talking down at us as though we are children.
    
    	-Ellen

    Thank you, Ellen.  I didn't want to flame Dave because I thought
    maybe I was the only one offended.
    
    In my case, Dave, the man who raped me was my lover!  I KNEW him,
    he was not a violent man, and I was not stupid, incautious or
    demonstrating poor judgement.  He took advantage of his size and
    superior strength to have sex with me against my will to prove a
    point -- he could do as he liked in the relationship.  There was
    no way I could have known he would react like this to the deterioration
    of the relationship (I believe this never would have occurred during
    a better point in the relationship, no matter the circumstances).
    He had ceased to think of me as an important person in my life,
    so therefore, I was no longer important at all.

    I am NOT paranoid because of this, but I am more aware of the fact
    that men (oh, am I generalizing again?) MAY use violence or coercion
    to have sex with me against my will, in spite of my best
    behavior/caution.
    
    Gloria	    
    

    One thing that may be hard for men to understand when compairing
    rape and mugging is the way a woman feels violated in her most
    personal and private areas by rape. 

    Sorry to jump in again and hog the space!
    
    But, agreement with Bonnie.  I think that rape is so traumatic because
    something meant to be pleasurable (sex) is used to cause pain. 
    That's why it is more than just an act of violence.  Being punched
    in the nose is always meant to cause pain, but having a wonderful
    experience perverted to humilate and physically dominate one is
    worse.
    

    >Most people in our society have caught on over the past hundreds
    of years that violence is wrong...
    
    Again, Dave, you're wrong.  Violence by men against women has been
    accepted by society until only a DECADE or two ago.  Until as recently
    as I believe the 30s or 40s a man was allowed to beat his wife but
    not after 10 pm because of the noise!!!!  The original "rule of thumb"
    is that you can beat your wife with a stick as long as it is no
    bigger around than your thumb!  The majority of murdered women are
    murdered by their husbands and boyfriends!  Something hasn't QUITE
    "caught on" as yet.
    
    Only in the last 10 years, (at the OUTSIDE), has the rapist begun
    being put on trial instead of the morals of the victim.
    
    Read your last couple of replies again and you are clearly saying
    that somehow women are at fault for "allowing" themselves to be
    in questionable situations.  The majority of women are raped in their 
    own homes.  That is a fact.  The majority of rapes are committed
    by men the women KNOW.  Tell me how you'd protect yourself against
    this very real possibility without seeming to be "paranoid"?
    
    Every situation is judged by women on its own merits and most women 
    know that to be paranoid of all men is to lead a lonely, miserable life.  
    The question here is WHEN does a woman pronounce a man safe?  Of 
    COURSE not on the first date, but when?  Some rapes in this file have 
    been committed by ex lovers.  Since you seem to think women are either 
    overly paranoid or too trusting, (I've seen both accusations in your 
    notes), then WHEN in a relationship with a man do you think a woman 
    should stop being "paranoid" and start to trust?

    When having a conversation with a male co-worker about sexual abuse,
    I likened rape to castration.  (Now there's a subject which will
    make most men wince a bit...)  His comment to me was that castration
    was permanent, and the effects of rape merely temporary.  I wonder
    if that is a common male fallacy (phallus-y...?) -- "It won't do
    any permanent damage, so I'll do what I want".   
    
    If anything, I think sexual abuse of children is just as traumatic,
    and just as long lasting in terms of adult sexual adjustment and
    trust as castration might be.  I don't think it's a bad analogy,
    if only to convey the degree of pain and fear to men which rape and sexual
    abuse cause women and children.
    
    His parting comment to me:  "You don't have any sense of humor".
    
    

    I have found a way to feel safe in New York City at night:  dress
    and act like a bag lady.   
    
    I'm not kidding.  I employed this tactic one night when I had to
    take a 3 am train from Penn Station.  Luckily for me it was winter,
    and I didn't mind wearing my ugliest clothes in multiple layers.  I
    also shuffled a lot and looked at the ground.
    
    No one looked at me, no one bothered me, and no one made any comments.
    
    I knew I had succeeded when the cops stopped me and asked to see
    my train ticket.  They were all set to toss me out of Penn Station.
    
    Now, how many of you guys have ever had to do something like this?
                                                                       
    
    

    Okay, this may be a bit long, but please bear with me.  Topics:
    1) "it's your own fault" (bullcookies), 2) rape vs. mugging and
    which hurt ME more, 3) even so, we're here to relate and discuss,not
    fight about definitions or relative severity of a variety of violent
    crimes, 4) rape is bad, 5) date rape, while not worse than
    "conventional rape", is a special, different kind of bad, and to
    close:  this is not just an interesting topic with aspects we feel
    strongly about, this is real agony we put on this screen and "devil's
    advocacy" about rape is not a very kind thing to do.         
    
    
    
    1)  One of the harder aspects of this rape was assigning guilt.
     I, like many people, felt _I_ had caused it.  I felt dirty, cheap,
    stupid, horrible, awful.  No one beat me to a pulp, I quit biting
    very quickly once it was apparent what was going to happen (they
    laughed when I drew blood; maybe they thought I was having a good
    time...), I didn't kick, shout, scream.  I said, "I. don't. want.
    to. f***. you."  They said, "sure okay, we don't want any 'histoires'
    [french for history, story, brouhaha] anyway."  They went ahead
    the moment I began to think that it was taken care of and they had
    turned back into normal people. 
    
    The first woman I talked to about it (other than the one who was
    there next to me while they took turns) asked my why I didn't poke
    eyes or damage bodily parts.  Once again, even a woman (this one
    calls herself a rabid feminist) implied it was my own fault.
    
    I have had help, and will go to counseling if I decide it _really_
    needs to be hashed out again, but now I _know_ it wasn't my fault.
     So...[set flame very, very high]
    
    DON'T EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER TELL A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN RAPED THAT:
    SHE ASKED FOR IT, LIKED IT, COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT, DIDN'T FIGHT
    HARD ENOUGH, CAUSED IT, OR IS IN ANY WAY THE GUILTY PARTY TO SOMETHING
    THAT AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CAUSE SUCH PAIN,
    AGONY, SUFFERING!!!!!!! HOW ****DARE**** ANYONE WHO HASN'T BEEN
    RAPED IMPLY THAT THEY KNOW WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM, AND COULD HAVE
    PREVENTED IT IF THEY WERE THE ONES IN THAT SITUATION!!!!!!!!
    
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH.
    
    [calmed somewhat, but flame still on:]
    
    I can forgive such statements, because I hope they are made in ignorance 
    rather than sadism.  How many women are still suffering because
    of this guilt?  First this awful thing, then this idea that _I_
    made this awful thing _happen_!  I have to hope that if you knew
    what that sort of reference does to my stomach, and how destructive
    a thing it has been to many people, you would not purposely cause
    that sort of agony if you could help it.
    
    Well, now you know, and you can also know that if a woman important
    to you tells you about being raped, you know better than to imply
    it was her fault.
    
    [fully calmed, flame off]
    
    2)  I was beat up (by a drunk old man on a nice street in Paris
    in full daylight with many people around me) because I was stupid
    enough to spit on the ground when he started harrassing me.  I went
    a little belligerent after the rape, and openly antagonized him,
    but it was not my fault that a) he harrassed me, or b) he had to
    resort to violence to prove he was more of a man than this "girl"
    who spits on the street.  I guess "acting the dyke" (no offense,
    I look like a man without hair on his face, and get out of harrassing
    situations by letting people think I am one.) didn't work this time!
    
    Sorry, bruises and blood were almost nice, easy and straightforward
    compared to trying to stop smelling "my rapists" every where.  When
    bringing up the rape or thinking about it, I _smell_ them!  I'm
    glad that doesn't happen when I have s*x or I'd go straight to a
    mental hospital right now.  If you aren't beat up while you are
    raped, chances are you don't go into shock the way you do when you
    are beat up.  One friend who was raped very violently does not remember
    _any_ details; she's not even sure what he looked like!  She just
    woke up with her torn clothes on the ground, and the wounds on her
    body.  Me?  I remember every detail, smell, taste, ugh.  All the
    feelings which are normally so sensual and nice twisted into something
    so awful and ugly.  All I remember about being beat up is the sound
    of his fist hitting my head. 
    
    So having been in both situations, rape hurt me more and was a much
    more ugly crime.  That doesn't mean I have no permanent scars from
    being beat up (I promise never again to think I am safe because
    the sun is out, I am on a nice street, and there are people
    everywhere); they are simply not as deep or as disfiguring.
    
    3) If we are going to further discuss mugging vs rape, perhaps we
    should move it to another note.  It seems to me this note is here
    to a) give women a chance for some catharsis -- a rape is something
    one usually tries to bury and forget, but to know there are others,
    many other, that really helps, and b) give men the chance to see
    (if they can stomach it.  I don't know if I could in your position)
    just how much it happens, to how many women, in how many safe
    situations (like with a husband), and how much it hurts.
    
    [ps. mea culpa]
    
    4)  This has been said, but in a fairly polite way: rape is AWFUL.
     The effects afterward can really make you wonder about yourself:
     I don't just remember what it was like, it was BURNED into my brain,
    my body!  I don't like to think about it because when I do, I can
    SMELL them!!  I TASTE them!!  My stomach twists!!  I hear their
    voices, their laughs!!  I remember their awful cooking from the
    dinner they invited us to come to (beforehand)!!  When I got VD,
    I called them (yes, I knew their number; no, I didn't and wouldn't
    even think of pressing charges) to tell them to get themselves to
    a doctor, because they were the only possible source of the infection
    and what with their turn-taking, they had all been exposed, and
    they told me that if they had it they got it from Lisa and me!!
    
    I could go on, but really don't want to.  I just wanted to point
    out that the accounts here have been very mild.  I am not unique;
    every date-raped woman I have talked to has had the same reaction.
    We remember and cannot forget, even when we try.  Just poke around
    the brain a bit, and the sensations are right there, where they
    cannot be ignored.  So we try not to poke around too much.
    
    I guess that covered 5) too.  I'm sorry to flame so long here, but
    a lot of this should not be addressed to one person only.
    
                                  
    To close: please don't play the devil's advocate with this topic,
    in this forum.  More than just strong feelings are involved; ever
    since this happened to me, others' accounts have begun to take on
    quite some meaning.  For any woman to be able to hear "yes, it happened
    to me, like this, you aren't alone", geez, that helps so very, very
    much, and making this a rathole like 181 would really stifle the
    opportunity.
    
    Lee

        First off, Lee, I haven't read all of your long tirade, despite
        the fact that you also mailed it to me (which is redundant,
        since this topic hasn't yet gotten to the point where there's
        no purpose to continuing the discussion, so I'm still reading).
        
        The first few paragraphs, plus the previous few replies,
        is enough to make it clear I was misunderstood in at least
        a few aspects.
        
        First off, I never said, or meant to imply, that anyone who
        is raped is in *any way* responsible for the occurance. 
        Rape is *always* *entirely* the fault of the rapist.  Rape
        is a violent attack against another person, and there is
        never *any* way to justify that.
        
        What I *said*, and this is very different, is that there are
        things you can do to minimize the chances of being raped: like
        not trusting strangers too much, and avoiding dark alleys. The
        fact that something isn't your fault doesn't mean it's not a
        good idea to avoid it.  Someone said that the "advice" makes it
        sound like I'm talking down to you... well I didn't intend that,
        either.  If that's really how it sounded, then I apologize.
        There was an undercurrent of "there's nothing I can do about it:
        we're helpless" which I sensed in some of the earlier topics,
        and that's simply not (completely) true: there *are* some things
        you can do, which, in many if not most cases, will lessen the
        danger. 
        
        .91 talked about a well known and trusted lover who committed
        rape.  Well, there aren't any such things as absolutes. People
        change, and sometimes they do so rapidly and unpredictably.
        Sometimes something just snaps and someone does something they
        would never have done before and would never consider doing
        again.  I never said that if you were careful nothing would
        *ever* happen to you, so don't say I was "wrong" because
        something did.  I just talked about minimizing the risk.  You
        can never minimize a risk to 0. 
        
        	/dave

        I've gotten a lot of flak, even from Barbara last night,
        about comparing rape to mugging.  I'm obviously being
        misunderstood, and it looks like the misunderstanding is
        pretty near universal.  Ergo, either I'm not expressing myself
        well, or my thinking processes are simply so different from
        everyone else (not unlikely) that it's *impossible* to express
        how I feel to you.
        
        First off, I should explain something.  I feel there may
        be a quite angry tone underlying my replies in this topic,
        as indeed there certainly is in some of the other replies.
        It may in part be this anger which is making it difficult
        to come to an understanding.  Please be aware that *my* anger
        (and likely much of the other anger) is directed at the
        *concept* of rape, and not at the other noters.  It's just
        that my adrenaline is rushing when I even think about this
        subject, and some of that mood can't help but boil over into
        what I write.  I start trembling, and my eyes tear, and it's
        a bit difficult to think "nice".
        
        Now, with that out of the way, a word about scaling violent
        crimes.  People say "rape is worse than mugging".  How does
        it sound to say "mugging is *better* than rape"?  Is murder
        better than rape?  Is is *better* to cut off someone's finger
        than their hand?  Is it better to be kicked in the knee than
        in the groin or breasts?
        
        Some people say yes.  I assume they're using some sort of
        scale where "nice" is a 0, kicking in the knee is maybe a
        2 or 3, mugging is a 6, and rape is up on the top at 10.
        Where's murder?  Is it a 10, a 9?
        
        Well, anyway, I can only speculate on how someone else feels
        about this.  To *me*, "nice" is a 0.  Kicking in the knee is up
        there maybe around 100,000.  Mugging is infinity.  Rape is maybe
        infinity*2, and murder is infinity squared (on a rational scale:
        on an emotional scale, reverse the last two).  Now, is infinity
        less than infinity*2?  The concept is simply meaningless.  You
        can't get any worse than infinity, no matter how hard you try.
        Anything beyond that has no physical significance; or really
        even mathematical significance. 
        
        "Better" is a very relative term.  If an attacker stopped
        and gave you a choice between a severe beating and rape,
        would you actually choose the beating?  Or would you try
        to get him to stop, or try to stop him, or just try to get
        the hell away from him?  The only thing that's *better* is
        for nothing to happen at all.  If you feel differently, that's
        fine.  As far as *I'm* concerned, I'd never willingly submit
        to either, under any circumstances, and therefore I cannot
        justify calling one "better" than another.
        
        Will all this make any difference to anyone?  I don't know.
        All I can say is how I feel, and that's what you've read.
                                       
        	/dave

    Dave--
    I see that you are working very hard at trying to understand something
    that has not happened to you, at trying to convey your point under
    fire, and at trying to keep the lines of communication open.
    
    You are working on yourself, which is all any of us can really ever
    do, and I appreciate you for that.
    
    At the same time, it hurt me when you referred to Lee's
    description of what happened to her as a "tirade".  Lee was not
    abusing anyone.  This is a good place for her (and the rest of us)
    to express our anger!  
                         
    

    Dave,
    May I second Holly's remarks. I think you made a mistake in not
    reading all of Lee's response before you answered it and in using
    the word 'tirade'. To read that line after Lee's long and painful
    story made me feel like I'd been slapped in the face. Like Holly
    I appreciate your efforts to understand, but your choice of words
    was really unforntunate.
    
    Bonnie 

    re .99:  about murder being worse than rape
    
    I know that many women who have been raped have said that they
    *felt* that murder would have been better than what they had been
    through, knowing that that was not *really* true.  But, /dave, that's
    how bad rape really feels and what a woman has to live with in the
    aftermath, she often wishes she was dead.
    
    I, for one, am really tired of reading your attempts to dig yourself
    out of your hole.  I think that most of us are glad that you are
    thinking about the issue, but really, just please leave us alone.
    Please.
    
    	-Ellen

    I, too, took great offense at /dave's characterization of lee's
    note as a tirade. yes, /dave, i understand that you're trying to
    be reasonable and understanding, etc etc etc, BUT talking about
    lee's note as a tirade comes off as an ATTACK on all of us. if 
    you really want to understand, then i suggest you read the entire
    note.  It was well written. 
        
    Lee, thanks for being so open about what's happened to you. I can
    only guess at how painful it is for you to share it with us.
    
    
    Liz

    I'm a flimsy man, and probably as vulnerable to physical violence
    as any woman in this conference.  But, I generally don't *feel*
    that vulnerability; and the statistics say that in fact, just
    because I'm a man, I'm far less likely to have it brought home
    to me.
    
    I think that what some of you are saying is that *every time
    you are alone with a man*, you have to feel the same sort of
    apprehension that I would feel if were alone in a New York subway
    car at 3am with a couple of tough-looking teenagers with switch-
    blades.  Regardless of what *his* intentions may be, that man
    physically *could* attack you; and you know from your experience
    and others' that he *might*.
    
    The thought appalls me.  I really had not thought in those terms
    before reading the replies in this topic.  I don't know what
    I can do about it; but I will certainly see the world differently
    in the future.  Thank you for helping to sensitize me.
    
	-Neil

        I'll stand by "tirade", which is defined as "a long, angry, and
        often abusive speech".  It was long, much of it was definitely
        angry, and at least the beginning was distinctly abusive (yes,
        I consider it highly abusive to claim that I even implied that
        it is a victim's fault that she was raped).
        
        I am not playing "devil's advocate" nor did I ever intend
        to.  I simply said that while this world is highly imperfect
        and often very sick, there are things you can do to improve
        your chances that fate will not sh*t on you, and that, when
        victimized, it is unfair to attempt to load guilt for that
        crime on more than the person/people who actually did it.
        
        Nor can I apologize to people who read more into my replies than
        what I meant, or who simply disagree with my intent... though I
        can state that I did not intend to insult or offend anyone. I
        have already apologized, and offered explanation, for the
        possible unpleasant *tone* of some of my replies, and for the
        possibility (or even likelihood) that what I *said* may not have
        been exactly what I intended to say in all cases.  If it will
        make any difference (and I doubt it), I hereby apologize once
        again for said things. This is an emotional subject (that's an
        understatement), and it's difficult to stay cool and collected
        while my fingers are trembling.
        
        I have the distinct feeling that some people expect me to
        accept guilt for what others have done---or might do---to
        them, simply because said individuals may be men.  This is
        highly unreasonable, and something I cannot do.  If in truth
        nobody expects this of me, then I've not been the only one
        failing to properly express myself in this conference, or
        causing insult by said failure.  Perhaps we should all apologize
        to each other?
        
        	/dave

    hi
    sort of off the subject here
    
    a few years ago i was in counseling,the counselor made advances.
    the end result: i felt guilty(it was my fault),dirty,cheap,and i
    felt i had been raped. took me monthes to get over it.
    						kelly
    

    I've been reading this note over the last three days. Some heavy
    duty discussions concerning very personal feelings! I would like
    to thanks those women in this note for having the courage to 
    relate those experiences in such a public forum. Your intention
    was to heighten awareness of others. It worked for me!!
    Certainly a man experieces "hormonal desires" which may drive his
    -thoughts-. But to allow his desires to rule his actions or to use,
    as someone said, an act of love, caring and trust to overpower someone
    or make himself feel powerful is completely inexcusable.
    
    No human being has the right to place himself over another. This
    note has shown me that not everyone in the world has this same ideal.
    For what it's worth, you've helped one person understand the world
    a little better. 
    
    Thanks
    
    David from Vermont

    During the winter of 86 (Jan 86, that is), a friend of mine came
    over to watch a football game.  I "invited him in" having known
    him for 6 months.  I had previously gone out with him in October
    and everything was cool.  UNTIL HALFTIME.  I had a cold or something
    during that day and had been in bed most of the time.  I never should
    have let him come over but he called me and well, I could have used
    the company.  So, at Halftime, he leans over and kisses me.  Plain
    kiss, nothing bad.  But, after that, powee.  He wanted more and
    tried to get it.  I said, cut it out.  "I thought he was just kidding".
     Come on, I had almost every flu symtom and this still wasn't about
    to stop him.  So, I got up and he followed, pushed me in the bedroom,
    threw me on the bed and started to unzip my pants.  I was really
    worried that he would do something terrible so I said, "if you do
    anything, it is not with my consent.  This will be rape and I will
    call the police".  He stopped whatever he was doing and said, "Oh,
    you'd be a f*** and do that, now, wouldn't you?"  I said, "You know
    where the door is, leave and don't ever come near me again".      
    
    I share this with you because of the topic we are discussing.  I
    was really upset after that and thought "well, Cathy, you didn't
    have to let him in you know".  But, I had no idea he would be like
    that.  I had gone out with him before and he was ok.  We were not
    involved in a relationship, we had just dating.  But, it was not
    my fault and thank goodness, I wasn't hurt.  
    
    See, it can happen, in you home and under the most "innocent"
    circumstances.

    Remember this movie about a male cop who use to snicker at women
    rape victims?  Then the movie went on about he got in a very bad
    situation at night when a bunch of guys jumped him and RAPED
    him....they showed him going through all the emotions a women went
    through when it happen to them.  All of a sudden he started helping
    rape victims and took it seriously.  I'll never forget that movie
    because it really made a statement....you don't know what it's like
    until it happens to you.
    
    bs
    

    Speaking of the media and laying blame on the victim...
    
    On TV, there is very little suspense. And you always know who the
    rapist is. And when it's about to happen. Which can easily make
    you think that the victim should know too.
    
    This popped into my mind when I was trying to figure out why sensible,
    caring people might still think the victim of a rape is at fault.
    We're shown such cut-and-dried situations on the tube.
    	Mez

    I'd like to see more positive outlooks and valuing of differences.
    I know many people are dealing with very painful memories and some
    powerful hostilities built up in direct response to being hurt 
    (physically or mentally).
    
    Even so. . . I MUST cherish the goodness in life and (in fact) focus
    on it (quite honestly) at the expense of something else.  I'm a
    woman and I've felt so many of the emotions that are so wonderfully
    expressed in this notes file. . . but, I almost shudder at times
    at the powerful negative energy I feel in some replies.  Call me
    naive and inexcusably innocent, but if I don't give life a chance
    to show all of its wonder to me, what is life worth living for?
    
    I felt bad about some of the severe criticism of Dave's attempts
    to express himself.  He is only offering a gift - his view of the
    world (you might say).  Thank him for caring enough to offer his
    perceptions instead of telling him to "leave us alone".  Don't you
    see, he is a part of that "us".
    
                             With good intent,
                                   Lynn

    I'm six feet tall, and when I started getting involved with boys they
    were always smaller than I was (I've always been attracted to the
    bookish type, I guess...)
    
    It wasn't until I was 24 that I found myself in an intimate situation
    with a man who I suddenly realized could physically overpower me if he
    wanted to. I've felt subtly different about men since then (although I
    still feel that most men, like most people, are to be trusted). 

    					Val

    <--(.85)
        ... it's little if any safer
        for a man than for a woman (and a hell of a lot safer for a
        woman with a black belt in some martial arts discipline than for
        90% of all men, regardless of size or build).
        
        Which brings me to .83:
        
        I'll grant that many attackers are more likely to attack
        a woman than a man.  Our society still loves to characterize
        women as victims, and it shows.  But a mugger will attack
        a 98 pound guy in a conservative business suit a lot more
        readily than they'd attack a female body-builder type.  And
        size isn't the only factor in the *outcome* of an attack,
        in any case.  The man who taught Barbara and I Aikido had
        both legs disabled by polio as a child, and walks with leg
        braces and crutches.  He's thin and not particularly impressive.
        One of the fiercest Aikido experts he knows is a little old
        lady in her 60s or 70s, somewhere under 5 feet in height.
        Either one of them is a far more likely target for a mugging
        than I am... but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the mugger
        stupid enough to try.
        
        	/dave    
    
    <--(.87)
                            -< Take it like a man >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re: .83:

    Dave, men *are* more immune, in general, from attack of any kind
    by virtue of their (generally) greater size and physical strength.

You are probably referring to a man being (date) raped by a woman.
The most prevalent form of male rape is by another man (or by several
men).  Read any book on prison conditions for more information.

Martin.


    ===================================================================
        
    I've noticed a distressing tendency, well exemplified here, to defend
    against a general argument (e.g., mine in .83 that men are as a
    rule more immune from physical attack than are women) by citing
    specific cases.  
    
    In the two cases used here (female unarmed-combat experts; men in
    prison), the defences would I think seem funny in their
    inappropriateness were the subject itself not so unreservedly grim. And
    these are defences put forward by two of the most articulate and
    thoughtful members of our community!! 
    
    Why is it, I wonder, that the flaw in their reasoning escapes them?
    
    						=maggie

    Looking like a bag lady, as suggested earlier, is not always a perfect
    defense against rapists.
    
    My roommate from college lived in a rough neighborhood in Boston.
    When she walked home from work each night (she couldn't drive, and
    buses only come so near to one's apartment) she wore very baggy
    clothes that covered as much of her figure as possible.  This didn't
    help one night when a man came out of a dark doorway behind her,
    wrapped a chain dog leash around her neck and dragged her back into
    the doorway rape her as people hurried by.  She never saw his face, but
    she hopes that there are still teeth marks where it counts.  Years
    later she would still wake up in the night terrified (and she is a
    strong outgoing woman).   I doubt he knew her, he just saw a small
    woman and that was good enough for him.
    
    The ritual cleansing after a rape is unique among other physical
    crimes.  If someone punches you in the nose, or badly bruises you,
    you wash up, and maybe put some ointment on to ease the pain. It's
    tender and sore for a few days, but you aren't obsessed with the
    injuries.   After a rape, you need to get every trace of the attacker
    off of you and out of you.  A microscopic cell germinating for a
    few hours could cause you a lifetime of anguish (even if you are
    pro-choice, abortion is never taken lightly).  I've been robbed,
    but not mugged, or raped (too close for comfort a couple of times
    though, but close doesn't count does it?), but having helped others
    through it, I have an inkling of how bad it really is.  
    
    I'm really not sure what I'm trying to say,  I guess I'm trying
    to get across the combination of terror/helplessness/anger/loss that a
    woman gets when she is threatened.  And when a woman walks alone there
    are so many little threats, each one incrementing that dread feeling a
    little more.  It's something that a lot of us have come to accept.
    I don't know what we can do to make the world as safe for women
    as it is for men, but that's another note.   

    			Barbara b.

    From an anthology of women's poetry ("In the Pink" published by
    The Women's Press, 1983) :

    (By Marge Piercy)
        
    Rape Poem
    
    There is no difference between being raped
    and being pushed down a flight of cement steps
    except that the wounds also bleed inside.
    
    There is no difference between being raped 
    and being run over by a truck
    except that afterward men ask if you enjoyed it.
    
    There is no difference between being raped 
    and being bit on the ankle by a rattlesnake
    except that people ask if your skirt was short
    and why you were out alone anyhow.
    
    There is no difference between being raped
    and going head first through a windshield
    except that afterward you are afraid
    not of cars
    but half the human race.
    
    Fear of rape is a cold wind blowing 
    all of the time on a woman's hunched back.
    Never to stroll alone on a sand road through
    pine woods,
    never to climb a trail across a bald
    without that aluminium in the mouth
    when I see a man climbing toward me.
    
    Never to open the door to a knock
    without that razor just grazing the throat.
    The fear of the dark sides of hedges,
    the back seat of the car, the empty house
    rattling keys like a snake's warning.
    
    the fear of the smiling man
    in whose pocket is a knie.
    The fear of the serious man
    in whose fist is locked hatred.
    
    All it takes to cast a rapist is to be able to see your
    body as jackhammer, as blowtorch, as adding-machine-gun.
    All it take is hating that body
    your own, your self, your muscle that softens to flab.
    
    All it takes it to push what you hate,
    what you fear on to the soft alien flesh.
    To bucket out invincible as a tank
    armoured with treads without senses
    to possess and punish in one act,
    to rip up pleasure, to murder those who dare
    live in the leafy flesh open to love.
    

    The following response was written by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    I have read the base note and all responses, and I am moved to
    contribute something that I feel has not been given the attention it
    deserves. 

    I have a fear of rape that is similar to that most of the other women
    here in this conference.  I have a fear that is much stronger than my
    fear of rape, however.  It the fear of inability to prosecute should I
    ever be raped. 

    To be concise, I have been promiscuous in the past.  In the far past
    (in much younger and more foolish days) I spent some period of time
    engaging in relatively anonamous sex.  I would pick up a different man
    (or sometimes two!) on any given night.  This unequivocably DOES NOT
    make me available to any man for the taking.  If I were to be raped,
    however, I would be subject to having this all drawn out in court (if
    it got that far!) and would most certainly bias a jury against me.
    This makes me both angry and afraid. My morality (or lack of morality,
    in the eyes of some) should not revoke my right to refuse a sexual
    encounter, nor should it hinder my ability to prosecute someone who has
    taken what I have not given freely. 

    I have also (in the not-so-distant past) been involved in a group
    relationship. I had an affair with two men.  Actually, it is more
    realistic to say that we all had an affair with each other.  We lived
    together, shared a bed, our meals, our life, and our love.  Having sex
    with both men at once was wonderful; this unequivocably DOES NOT mean I
    want to be gang-banged.  Again, this (very fulfilling) experience would
    make it difficult for me to prosecute a rape, especially a date rape,
    sucessfully.  And it also made it difficult when people found out about
    it, in terms of the kinds of propositions I got. ("Hey, hey, girlie,
    how about taking a night out with me and my two friends here?")
    Fortunately, these were relatively easy situations to spot and avoid,
    and we were pretty discreet with our affair, so not *too* many people
    found out, and there weren't *too* many of these incidents...still, the
    ones that happened made me SOOOOO angry... 

    Another point that has yet to be addressed: 

    If a woman does say yes, that does not give the man the right to do
    absolutely anything he pleases. 

    During the time I lived with these two men, I accepted a date with
    someone I met at a party.  I went (with the consent of my lovers,
    incidently) with the expectation that if the man was willing, I
    probably would consent to a one-night fling.  All well and good, my
    date made a pass at me, I accepted, and we went to his place.  After we
    were already "into the act" he began to beat me and humiliate me for
    being such a tramp as to sleep with a man on a first date (but it was
    ok for him to proposition me! The sexist slime!).  Well, I got out of
    there as soon as I was able, and drove home in the middle of the night,
    bruised and scarred, physically and emotionally.  My only salvation at
    that point was my wonderful lovers. They both spent days, with all of
    us fully clothed, holding me, caring for my bruises, and making it
    clear that I was not to blame for this man's sick and sadistic
    behavior.  They were slow and patient, and a week or so later I was
    comfortable enought for us to take our clothes off (these men wore
    pajamas for me!!!).  Two weeks later, after much support from my lovers
    and my therapist, we were able to have slow, gentle sex, and I was able
    to relearn to trust men.  They were soooo understanding, and I want the
    people in the conference to know that not all men respond with "It was
    your fault" or "What did you do to invite it?".  These wonderful men in
    my life were able to help me see what happened for what it was, an act
    of violence. They were able to help me reintegate sexuality as an act
    of love.  I bless them for it. 

    I am married and monogamous now, but I remain fearful of the judicial
    system and the simple fact that we put the victims of the crime of rape
    on trial, not the perpetrators of the crime.  It is a shameful
    situation, and one I cannot fully come to grips with. 

    The following response was written by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
                                                    =maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    It seems many people were offended by the idea that they should learn
    to defend themselves. I lived for many years with the crippling
    anguish, anger, shame, fears, feelings of hopelessness and lack of
    security, etc. I am no big person, I was afraid of my own shadow...then
    I decided to care enough about myself to make sure that NO one ever
    hurts me that way again. It's not a perfect solution, I don't feel
    invincible. I am angry and scared enough to do whatever it takes to
    make sure it doesn't happen again. Out of that grows a confidence in my
    self-worth and abilities. 
 
    I don't believe that any victim has ever not fought back enough. Fear
    can literally paralyze. Pain inflicted will weaken anyone's resolve to
    resist. If you think I don't worry about it in spite of training... 

    I can't sit here and just hope that it never happens again...I want to
    know that I did all I could... I made my anger become the positive
    ability to repel attacks. I wanted to pass that strength on to you...
    If it's not the answer for you then that's fine for you. Not for me. 
 
                                                                         

    re .117:  isn't it hard to understand why we (younger people) were
    raised to believe that promiscuity in and of itself is not a bad
    thing, then if we are "promscuous" (read: single, young,
    semi-attractive, and experimenting) we are not likely to be able
    to prosecute our rapists?  NO FAIR!!
    
    re .118: answering violence with violence...makes me pretty uneasy.
    
    Lee

    Re: 117
    
    I think it's ironic....that if your a woman who has been raped and
    they find out your had 54 lovers they think you deserve to be raped
    but if your a guy that had 54 lovers your known as "the stud".....
    I don't think that is fair!  Why should it make any difference how
    many people you had as "lovers" - they miss the point....."lovers"
    and "rapists" are two different things I think people need to be
    educated on that.    
    
    

    re .90:
    
    I'm new to this notes file and am still not quite caught up to it
    all yet but I have to give one in your favor in your reply to .88.
    I feel the same way about his messages from being "long-winded"
    to "offensive".  I have come close to being raped by an EX-boyfriend
    and was fortunate to talk myself out of it.  I felt totally violated
    of my body and I don't think any man could even begin to think what it 
    could possibly be like to be in our shoes.  To bad we don't hear
    stories about men being raped, then maybe they could actually pass
    the feelings on.  Until then they can not even begin to understand
    the feelings of having your body violated.
    
    Jude
    

    Re .116, .119, this reminds me of a conversation I had once with
    a *male* friend.  We were discussing the New Bedford pool table
    rape that got so much publicity.  My friend said, "The way I see
    it if a woman goes to a party and agrees to have sex with 19 men
    there but then, for whatever reason, decides she doesn't want to
    have sex with the 20th guy, then she has a right to say no, and
    if the 20th guy forces her - that's rape!"  Too bad all men - and
    women - weren't that enlightened!
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .121
    
    	But what if said woman says no to #5.  Is that rape?  Absolutely
    yes!

    RE. Men's fear of rape.
    
    Ever wonder why men fear prison so much????
    

    If a philanthropist gives away millions of dollars, he/she is no
    more 'deserving' of being robbed than anyone else.  Even if he/she 
    walks down the street with hundred dollar bills hanging out!
    They may GET robbed in the second instance, but they are still being
    "robbed" and as such are covered under the law.  
    
    Most women do not let their "hundred dollar bills" hang out but if
    they are "robbed", (raped), usually the FIRST thing the powers that be 
    want to know is if she was, somehow, dangling herself as a carrot with 
    the assumption being that if she was, well, boys will be boys and she 
    should have known that men would be helpless, (and therefore
    blameless), at the sight of her whatever-it-was she was showing!
    Good lord!
    
    Women do not have equal, automatic, unquestioned protection under the 
    law like men do, (even philanthropic men), because in addition to con-
    forming to what is "legal" within a society, a woman is expected also 
    to conform to what is "moral" and if she does not, then society 
    feels justified in witholding from her its legal protections as
    'punishment' though they don't admit that this is what they are
    doing.  The societal attitude, (though this is changing with the
    institution of the rape shield law - thank heaven!), is that a woman
    who has lots of sex *cannot* be raped!  Think about it!  The idea
    is that if she's "no virgin" then she deserves what she gets.  This
    stems from the traditional prevalant attitude that women are either 
    virgins, married or sluts.
    
    To the noter who fears rape not so much for its own sake but for
    what in her life it will bring out in the open - hold your head
    up!  You CANNOT be questioned about your past.  It has NO bearing
    on your ability to be raped!  You can sleep with whomever you want
    whenever you want WITHOUT relinquishing your legal protections!
    Women MUST learn that equal protection under the law is their RIGHT!
                                   

    
    	This has been along two days, where I have read all 124 replies.
    
    	My heart goes out to all those who have had to deal with the
    	traumatic experiences, and those that have come close.  IT disgusts
    	me to think men could treat women as though they were a LOVE
   	DOLL, just screw it, no feelings ...etc..etc....BUT we have
    	to remember, this is a sickness just as alcohol, gambling, over-
    	eating. (please don't read it as the same level of importance.)
    	These people need to be worked with.
    
    	IN reference to a couple of things already said, watching the
    	TV show LA LAW, I've heard a couple things that are true.  MOst
    	people would rather be murdered than raped.  WHY, simply, after
    	your murdered you don't have to live with the pain, your DEAD.
    	After rape you do.  AND YOU CAN'T SAY "YOU'LL FORGET IT LATER
    	IN LIFE".  BULLSHIT.  THis note has brought back many pain for
    	those.  A mentionmm of rape on the radio, brings back pain.
    	ON LA LAW it was mentioned why people get more more for being
    	maimed than murdered, simple...they have to live with their
    	pains.
    
    	The other thing I had heard was...To be mature is too have
    	feelings, but not to act on them.  Sure we all have feelings
    	that we would like to make love to someone, but can't because
    	of circumventing circumstances.
    
    	I have a friend that was in the FEDERAL PEN in Pennsylvania,
    	for crossing state lines with stolen merchandise.  The car
    	theif or the burglar are the most "liked or least cared about
    	in jail.  Murderers next but most hated:
    
    		Most hated:	CHILD ABUSERS
    				RAPISTS
    				CHILD MURDERERS
    				MURDERERS
				THIEVES, FRAUDS..ETC...
				WHITE COLLAR CRIMES
    
    	The rapists and child abusers are the most hated, by other inmates.
    	You ask and find out, how many of those raped in jails, have
    	raped others.  IT is alarming that the rate is higher among
    	other crime committers.
    
    	This has happened to me in the past.  A girl I had liked and
    myself had run into each other in a bar where I had previously 
    worked.  We were friends at the time.  After a night of good times,
    I asked her if she needed a ride home, (she didn't have a car).
    She said yes. OK, I got to herhouse, and proceeded to give her
    a kiss on the cheek, and thank her for a nice night.  SHe proceeded
    to throw a lip lock on me, and progressed rather quickly with her
    hands. So feeling pretty good ( on alcohol), I *ASSUMED* an assumption
    of "friendlyness", and proceeded to return the favor, when she jumped
    up, and started to scream "WHAT THE F*CK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING"
    Well, scared sh*tless, I zipped up, grabbed my coat and flew out
    the door.  I have seen her once since with another guy (two years
    after).  The part that bothered me the most, was a friend of hers
    told a friend of mine, whom I told the story to, that I was a pig
    and dangerous !!!!!!.
    
    	I'm afraid to ask for goodnight kisses now, and I've actually
    shyed away from asking girls to dance at clubs unless I know them.
    
    
    					Mike
    

    
    	I also meant to add something else.
    
    	It is a shame that women have to live in fear, as men take
    	it for granted, not having to worry about that stuff.  I mean
    	if a girl goes to a club, she worries about, men in there,
    	men that stare at her, constantly stop by, and ask her to dance,
    	when already has said no five times.  What does a guy worry
    	about ?, Hoping the girl he picks up doens't have AIDS.  I'm
    	not generalizing here about all men. Some do this type of stuff.
    
    
    				Mike
    
    

re: BEING::MCANULTY

>IT disgusts me to think men could treat women as though they were a LOVE
DOLL, just screw it, no feelings ...etc..etc....

You just finding this out?  Women learn this very early in the dating
game meeting all those young adolescent males.  Because of that very strong
lesson, most women are pleasantly surprised when a man is any different.

>BUT we have to remember, this is a sickness just as alcohol, gambling, 
over-eating. (please don't read it as the same level of importance.)

You are TOO kind!  Rape is very different than the above in that the above
is a sickness of the individual and rape is a sickness of society.  Keep
in mind this topic is DATE RAPE and we're not dealing only with the rela-
tively rare foaming maniac lurking in the bushes waiting for his prey.
The majority of rapes are committed by men the women know and they are
committed because of societal attitudes fostered by movies, books, skin
mags, ad nauseum, that tell us that 'real men' get the woman and if she
resists then a taste of his maleness is all that's needed to turn her
silly little head around.  TV and movies show us EVERYDAY some macho 
'hero' holding onto the resisting heroine until he gets in just one kiss.
Then she melts, forgets EVERYTHING about why she resisted in the first place
and within 30 seconds is responding with a fury that could break teeth!
The publicity photo for "Gone With The Wind" has always disgusted me because 
it typifies this attitude.  She looks almost dead and I assume that's because
when she's conscious she's fighting him off.  I guess that greasy little
lock of hair on his skinny forehead just took the fight right out of her.

"Fainted away by the overwhelming presence of his uncontrollable maleness, 
she acquiesces to his rough advances and discovers a world of intense pleasure 
she never even knew existed." 

This is the kind of garbage we get fed and men who wannabe "real men" are
going to look at female resistance as simply a test of their maleness.  YES
THEY DO!!  The only difference between men is how much they believe the
"Gone With The Wind" picture, (and almost every other movie in our culture),
and at what point they stop their pressure.  Plenty of them don't stop.  If
3 women out of 5 will be raped in their lifetime and the majority of them
will be raped by men they know, I would say quite a large number of men don't
stop.  Because men in our culture feel sex is their inalienable right, and
they also feel that women and sex are the same thing, it follows that they 
feel that women are their inalienable right.  Some more than others, but I'm
talking about the norm from which we are operating.

>The rapists and child abusers are the most hated, by other inmates.
>You ask and find out, how many of those raped in jails, have raped others.  
>IT is alarming that the rate is higher among other crime committers.
    
Alarming?  Even the bible advocates an eye for an eye.  I think ALL rapists
should be raped, what do you think about that?  It says a lot about our
society that rapes are increasing steadily despite what you've outlined
as terrible consequences.  Guess rapists don't expect they'll ever be
facing the consequences.  Most of them don't.  We don't like to ruin men's
lives by sending them to jail.

>I'm afraid to ask for goodnight kisses now, and I've actually
>shyed away from asking girls to dance at clubs unless I know them.
 
Aww, so you don't get to dance as much anymore?  This rape thing must 
really be tearing up your life.  You have to be careful around women now 
because you could actually get misunderstood!  How horrible!


re: VOYEUR::OPER

I had a lengthy reply to some of your biased comments but felt it was use-
less.  You note strongly suggests that you feel the woman is the sole de-
terminant in the outcome of a rape.  I can see that you are blinded by your 
particular situation and have lost all sympathy for women in their physically
inferior positions relative to a determined male and rather than get into a
shooting match with you, I'm going to wisely leave it alone.

Suffice it to say that a woman in this situation KNOWS that men kill women
and they make their decisions based on their instincts for survival.  Your
anger probably is justified but I hope it softens with time because no 
woman deserves the cavalier attitude you have toward them.  My guess is you
had some issues with your SO even before the rape which were merely intensified
because of it.

You are resentful that rape has touched your life and that's understandable
but to blame the woman for 'bringing it there' is mis-guided.  You make re-
ferences to 'our pain' and 'sharing suffering' but you don't really believe
that if you are angry at a raped woman for disturbing your life.
    

re: Note 189.128, CSSE::CICCOLINI                                      

 Wow, I did not intend to provoke, just to discuss.

 Actually, your guess is inaccurace. We were in the starry-eyed state,
then went through love/pain for a while, and have since discovered
mellow romance. The last 7 years have been good.

 It seems that you have not resolved *your* anger. Didn't your mom ever tell 
you that life isn't fair? Mine did. Mine also used to say 'Poor you' when I 
complained. Tough love but it taught me to go on. Your anger seems to make 
all men part of the problem. I am not part of this notes (.0) problem. When 
I was in college I listened to a lot of women venting their anger. If it helps 
your courage to stand on your own, good for you. I reject it being directed at 
me and it doesn't affect me much anymore. Complaints without action gets boring. 
Indiscriminate anger is prejudice. Radicals are ugly. Beat someone else up.

    
    RE: .128 CSSE::CICCOLINI
    
    There is no need to attack me.  I was not attacking you or anyone
    else.  Most of the comments I made were on RAPISTS in general. 
    Whethere one has committed DATE RAPE or any other kind of RAPE,
    they are both sick.
    
    I think the last paragraph was uncalled for.  I made a simple
    statement.  I'm not bitching or complaining, or whining.  
    
    		MIke
    

    
    	One other thing.  NO I'm not just finding out about how
    	men treate women like SHIT!  Don't insinuate things because
    	your anger is still clinging, and take it out on other people,
    	especially myself.
    
    		MIke
    

    I may be wrong but there seems to be something wrong with the statistics
    here.
    
    A note a few back (.128) gave the per centage of women who are rape victims
    as "3 out of 5" (60%)
    
    A US Government report out a few days ago stated that "5 out of 6 of
    todays 12 year olds will be the victims or intended victims of violent
    crime during their lives" -- that's 83%
    
    If 60% are *actually* raped, then 23% are the victims, or intended victims
    of all other forms of violent crime combined. (Including attempted rape
    presumably).
    
    This seems quite inconceivable (especially as "mugging" is far and away
    the most commonly reported violent crime today): it becomes completely
    absurd when you consider that half of the 12 year olds (approx) are boys.
    If 60% of the females are raped, then males are going to be (by a massive
    proportion) the major victims of all other violent crimes, and that
    simply isn't true.
    
    ====
    
    Please note I am not attempting to pass any sort of value judgement
    on the emotions and opinions others have expressed, but some of the
    statistics almost seem to have been hysterically exagerated. This is
    perhaps akin to the statistics that were being quoted on child kidnap
    victims a few years ago: the FBI eventually released statistics that
    showed that less than 500 children had been kidnapped (as opposed to
    being abducted by relatives with no right of custody), ie a real problem
    exists, but a few of the more vociferous disciples of media coverage
    of the problem prefer to "quote" statistics designed to show the problem
    to be of pandemic proportions.
    
    /. Ian .\

    re -.1:
    
    As rape is extremely underreported (last I heard, ~5% of all rapes
    were reported), I _believe_ the 60% figure is an extrapolation.
     It looks pretty accurate from where I sit...
    
    Regarding the concept that if 60% are raped then 23% bear the brunt of
    the _rest_ of violent crime, that ignores the possibility that one
    person can be a victim of more than one kind of crime. Ex: a person who
    is raped, then later mugged.  Is that person part of your rape statistic
    or the "other violent crime" statistic?  
    
    Lee

    	RE:  Ms. Ciccolini 
    
    		Your notes on this subject have been incredibly
    	thought-provoking for me.  I confess that I had not previously
    	given much thought to the "whys" of the way women have been
    	and are currently being treated in our culture.  Your comments
    	have been interesting (although your ideas in general are a
    	bit more radical than my own.)
    
    		I do want to point out, however, that it *is* possible
    	and even desirable (for some women) to take a more positive
    	outlook on our "situation" (as women living in a culture that
    	has been traditionally sexist.)

    		This is my 13th year in a non-traditional career, and
    	I have seen attitudes toward women change dramatically in the
    	workplace since 1974 when I got my first technical job (while
    	still in college.)  It has been my personal observation that
    	times have indeed changed and that we now have many more
    	opportunities than we had a decade ago.
    
    		That's not to say that there isn't still room for
    	improvement, of course.  I just think that we need to recognize
    	that progress has been made (and acknowledge that fact to some
    	of the folks that are supportive of our efforts.)
    
    		I realize that it doesn't seem fair to ask women to
    	"forgive and forget" what has been done to us in the past --
    	and it may not even be *possible* for some women to do either
    	(especially if they have been raped.)
    
    		But -- anger and hostility have a way of eating a person
    	up inside.  If we spend the rest of our lives being angry about
    	sexism, then those who have inflicted injuries on us have "won"
    	*FAR* past their expectations (and we have "lost" far more than
    	we needed to lose over what happened.)
    
    		Angry feelings are natural (and it is *good* to let
    	them out.)  But we are hurting ourselves *much* more than the
    	oppressors ever hurt us if we allow anger to persist (on and
    	on) without an end in sight.
    
    		This is only my opinion, of course, but I think that
    	the best revenge against sexism is to succeed *IN SPITE* of
    	it (and to *not* give our oppressors the satisfaction of
    	seeing us permanently bothered by what they did to us.)
    
    		Your notes on "why" we have been treated the way
    	we have are extremely interesting.  But, I don't think that
    	that being negative is the best or only solution -- and I'm
    	personally much more concerned with "Where do we go from
    	here?"
    
    		Understanding the past helps us -- but there's nothing
    	we can do to change what has happened.  We can only work on
    	the present and the future.  It will take a great deal of
    	tolerance on *our* parts to join with men as equals (after all
    	that has happened.)
    
    		That tolerance involves acquiring a positive attitude
    	towards men.  If we can't do that, we'll be forever separate
    	(and we'll be providing men with the incentive to stay on top
    	as the dominant sex.)
    
    		We can live our lives on our own terms (we have the
    	brains and the talent to do that -- we always did -- and we
    	have more opportunities to *use* our gifts than we have ever
    	had before!)
    
    		We need to focus our energy in the right direction
    	if we want to live up to that potential.  At this point,
    	anger just seems counter-productive to me.
    
    						Suzanne....

    Thanks, Suzanne
    
    My feelings exactly!
    
    Joyce

    
    
    RE:  128, et al.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    (I started out to write this reply yesterday, but I was so incensed,
    that I deleted it and gave myself 24 hour to cool off.)
    
    I ask as a matter of courtesy and accuracy, that contributors please
    refrain from using the term "Men" in the tone used by MS Ciccolini.
    Please use the modifier/clarifier "some" or "a few".  
    
    I realize that the topics covered in this file are "hot", and that
    those women who have been through these experiences will be justifiably
    angry, but in the interest of fairness and accuracy, I must insist
    that not all men be tarred by the brush of complicity just for being
    a male.
    
    I did not choose to be a male, however I am a male;  and I must
    insist that I have never been guilty of any of the actions that
    this topic describes -- nor do I condone any of the actions (crimes
    if you will).  I also know many other males who share my feeling
    of revulsion for these types of behavior toward women.  
    
    NOT ALL MEN HATE WOMEN, OR DESIRE TO PUT THEM DOWN, OR ABUSE THEM!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Please remember that it's the rotten apples that spoil the batch,
    nor does it take many of them.  I make no attempt to defend or
    ameliorate those who oppress women (or any other minority) -
    what they do is despicable - but please don't include me among them.
    
    As an example of how I feel, consider how you may feel when you
    hear a black talk about how "all honkies" are involved in
    discrimination, etc.  It isn't true of all whites, and supression/
    domination of women isn't true of all males.
    
    I understand and sympathize with your anger, but pleas direct it
    towards those who are deserving of it - not towards all men indiscri-
    minately.
    
    When Judges are over-lenient, lets go after them, but rest assured
    there are other judges who are not, etc.  The list goes on.
    The two judges in Massachusetts who have been totally uncaring of
    women's needs in domestic disputes recently have been repremanded,
    and have been barred from hearing any more domestic abuse cases.
    There is also a possibility they may be removed from the bench.
    
    The victories are mostly small, but they do go on.  
    
    I am ardent enough to want total equality now, but I am also realist
    enough to recognise that it may take a while.  
    
    In friendship and love!
    
    Dirk

    The following response was written by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    =================================================================

    As a teenage boy I was sexually assaulted by an adult male who was a
    stranger to me.  At first I was a somewhat willing participant, but
    when it became more painful than pleasurable, I had no idea how to turn
    things off. 
      
    Having gone to an all boy school, I had no experience dating girls and
    was in my early twenties before I developed any social contacts with
    the opposite sex. 
      
    The first girl (they were still called that in the '60s) that I was in
    love with, had been pressured a lot by her highschool boyfriend to "go
    all the way" to prove she loved him.  She never did and was terrified
    of the anticipated pain of first intercourse. I was very careful to
    never press for intercourse, and was very excited and happy just to
    hold her in my arms.  After about a year, I came back from a vacation
    to be informed that we could do "it" now because she was no longer a
    virgin.  We broke up a few months later, having done "it" once.
      
    The second girl had also been a virgin, and we crossed that bridge
    together, lovingly, and with an eagerness to discover new ways to share
    our sexuality.  One thing that I went along with, even though it did
    not turn me on, was to pretend to be a rapist who broke into her
    apartment and took her by force. We broke up a year later when she
    moved to a distant state. 
                                                           
    The following year, an older woman (+15), whom I knew socially, but not
    too well, invited me to spend a weekend at [their] summer cottage.  I
    arrived at this remote cabin to discover that "our" cottage meant her
    and her husband.  I didn't even know she was married.  She greeted me
    Friday night wearing a see-through negligee and we sat up in the
    kitchen while she told me about why she didn't get along with her
    [absent] husband. 
      
    I went to bed, in the guest room, that night thinking "Wow, this is
    just like Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate".  We spent the day on Saturday
    sailing their boat while she quizzed me about my love life (she had
    known Girl #2).  That night we snuggled by the fire and I got the
    impression I was going to end up in her bed, but it seemed that
    whenever I made any attempts at being more than just cuddly, I got the
    brush-off. 
      
    By Sunday morning I was feeling very horny and frustrated, having spent
    Saturday night alone in the guest room.  Perhaps I thought about how
    things might have gone with Girl #1 if I had not been so patient and
    understanding.  Perhaps I thought about how Girl #2 had fantasies of
    being raped. 
      
    When "Mrs. Robinson" walked naked past the open door of the guest room,
    and then left the door to the bathroom ajar while she took a bath, I
    interpreted it as an invitation.  Walking in on her, naked and erect, I
    proceeded to caress her and hold her, thinking the excitement would
    "sweep her off her feet". She struggled slightly and kept saying
    softly, "no, we musn't". We slid to the floor and at the very edge of
    penetration I said to myself "I can't really do this. This is rape."
    and I got up and left. 
      
    After she got dressed she acted as if nothing had happened. She
    suggested that we take a picnic lunch out on the boat after she got
    done mowing the lawn.  While she was mowing the lawn I gathered up my
    things, rolled the car down the driveway and drove off. 
      
    I drove off to the mountains and went hiking in a fit of depression and
    guilt.  Was I rapist?  How could I do that to somebody? How could I
    ever face her again?  It was months later before I convinced myself
    that it was not entirely my fault.  I think, to some extent, that I had
    been manipulated.  This is not meant as an apologia for acquaintance
    rapists.  I only mean to emphasize that there are some cloudy areas in
    the subject of "Date Rape". 
      
    If you are a victim, please forgive me if this note has caused you
    pain. 
      
      
      

I apologize to those who felt personally attacked.  Sometimes I get
passionately involved in this topic.  Reading back over my notes I
sure sound royally pissed.  It simply doesn't seem fair to me and it
never did since that first wedding when I was about 3 or so, (my note
"Your first lesson in sexism"), that female people are not really 
people and they shouldn't bother men with their complaints about it.

You people in this conference do more for me than any shrink could
and I thank you and trust that you have the best interests of all 
people at heart.  I guess I write from the perspective that we are
discussing among ourselves the world "out there" but it's becoming
clear to me that men are taking it personally.  Sorry.  You should
take it personally only when you continue to perpetuate the damaging
attitudes that say women aren't quite as real as men are and EVERY
time you do.

Re: Dirk Lust - I hear you and you're right to a certain extent.  If
I am guilty of "tarring all men by the brush of complicity" it's be-
cause women, (me included), are treated by men that way.  Sexism is
the doctrine that says "all women are this or that" and I have been
regarded and treated as such simply because I am female.  It doesn't
feel very good, does it?  Well be glad it doesn't hold back your pay or 
your promotions or get you raped or laughed at.  I'd sure like to 'insist
the interest of fairness and accuracy' that men not tar all women by the 
brush of complicity, too, but that's a basic tenet of our culture!  How 
come only women have to be fair and accurate?

>I confess that I had not previously given much thought to the "whys" 
>of the way women have been and are currently being treated in our culture.  

This amazes me.  Not just you, Suzanne, but many people tell me "Gee,
I never thought of that".  I can't HELP but try and find the reasons
why because only then will I understand what it really is and how I
can best protect myself from it.  I ponder the why's of everything and
take nothing at face value.

>This is my 13th year in a non-traditional career, and 	I have seen attitudes 
>toward women change dramatically in the workplace since 1974 when I got my 
>first technical job (while still in college.)  

And that explains your more magnanimous attitude toward the situation. I have 
been told by an employer that hell would freeze over before he would give the 
job for which I was supremely qualified to a woman.  Then he hired a male 
trainee who began asking me questions about the job.   I quit.

Another employer insisted that I be a secretary or nothing at all even though
I had more techincal education than three of his engineers COMBINED!  I was
getting sick of quitting and making peanuts and I gave in.  I hated myself
for it, but you gotta eat.  I rationalized that they just need to see what
I can do.  Well they loved my ability and used it.  I took over one of the en-
gineers responsibilities.  I learned to program.  They thought it was great,
but that's all.  I wrote letters documenting a very good case for my pro-
motion and was brushed off.

Let's see, when I was in college I was 3.67 chemistry major.  When I signed
up for a work-study job, they told me I could type tests.  Nothing I said
could sway them.

I admit I personally have had it harder than most women because I am small
and blonde, standing a towering 5'1 in my barefeet.  I HAVE to scream to
get heard and then I lose for screaming.  I wish to God sometimes that I
could be satisfied with just having some guys babies and making his dinner 
but I can't.  So I'm in limbo.  After 15 years in the job market I'm still
making woman's pay.  But this is the first time in my life that I see a
light at the end of the tunnel and that's really only because I'm getting
older!  I'm 34 now and as I move out of the cute little bimbo class I can
just see the difference in the way men treat me.  It's that waste of my
20's as being valued only as some little chick who's so cute when she's
angry that pisses me off.

It's that I can start building a real career toward some real money only
now because I am losing men's sexual interest that saddens me.  It's not
the loss of their interest, believe me, it's what has been wasted of my
life and why I am still driving a cheap car.  I've made so many new starts
with hope and openness and only now are things looking like they may happen
for me and it's not cuz I'm working any better, it's because I'm being re-
leased from the male stereotype.  I now know that most women can't have both 
men and money unless they get their money performing for men.  Strippers, 
centerfolds, hookers all make lots more than I do and probably more than even 
you do!  Intelligence, ambition and drive do not bring the rewards to women 
that their breasts can and that sickens me.

>But -- anger and hostility have a way of eating a person up inside.  

You bet.  I used to be a very angry person.  I've come to accept it all
though because as a woman I'm between a rock and a hard place.  I don't
glare at men or fear them or hate them in the least.  I don't blame
them one bit for agreeing with a doctrine that says they are king and women
are here to serve them, (even Eve was created simply because poor lonely
Adam needed a 'helpmate').  Men say they're king and they're stronger than 
me so, yessir, you're king, sir!  And I just have very little to do with most
of them because I HAVE to have self-respect.  The men I meet who have
respect for women remain in my life so don't get the impression I shut
them all out.  I listen to their jokes, I overhear their sexist comments,
I work with them and hang out with them and when I hear them talk about
their women or hear them dealing with their women I thank GOD I am smarter
than that and further, that I don't have that gotta-get-a-man mentality
that makes these women settle for less than dignified treatment.  I'd
rather be alone until I meet a good one and it's been a very lonely,
(but preferable!!!!!), life until I finally DID meet one 2 years ago.
He's MY king but not because he's THE MAN but because I'm his king, too.

>But we are hurting ourselves *much* more than the oppressors ever hurt us 
>if we allow anger to persist (on and on) without an end in sight.
    
Wrong.  My anger has helped save me from BEING hurt.  I could have settled
many times along the way for some ourtwardly charming and rich men if I
had rationalized their attitudes rather than getting angry at them.  I've
protected myself from living the subjugated lives I see so many women
living simply because they think that "ALL men are like that so what the
hell, this guys not so bad."  I NEVER though all men were like that and I was
determined to wait for that rare bird and the waiting paid off.  I'm
a wildly happy woman personally but that doesn't mean I have no further
need to speak out against sexism just because I am becoming less and less the 
victim of it.

>This is only my opinion, of course, but I think that the best revenge 
>against sexism is to succeed *IN SPITE* of it...

My creedo exactly!  Living well is the best revenge and I am living very
well.

>I'm personally much more concerned with "Where do we go from here?"
    
So am I and that's the basis for all my notes.  To go from here we all must
first admit the problem and then deal with it.  The hardest part is
getting men to do either, (my treasure excepted, of course!), because they 
have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.  Some men have told
me that men have a lot to gain when sexism is abolished and I believe
that to the very core of my being.  Trouble is men don't.  If they did,
sexism would be abolished.  They'll take the 'oppressive' parts of their
roles willingly because of the freedoms that go along with it.  Not one
man ever said he would willingly trade places with a woman.

>It will take a great deal of tolerance on *our* parts to join with men as 
>equals (after all that has happened.)
 
I believe women are fully ready and able NOW to join men as equals and have
said so.  I think women demonstrate an amazing capacity for tolerance and
forgiveness, (hell they even SLEEP with men they find sexist!), so the 
holdback isn't women.

>That tolerance involves acquiring a positive attitude towards men.  If we 
>can't do that, we'll be forever separate (and we'll be providing men with the 
>incentive to stay on top as the dominant sex.)
 
I got to differ here.  You are implying that our 'separateness' is the fault
of our attitudes toward men and we have the power to re-arrange society to
exclude sexism.  I disagree.  Our separateness is the fault of our repro-
ductive systems that men have blackmailed us with.  Our situation has
changed and so have our attitudes.  We ALREADY want an equal partner in a
man.  Men however don't know yet how to deal with women in any way but the
traditional one where women are considered basically useless people except 
some of them make great house pets. 

I'll never convince every man in the world that sexism makes for a painful
life for ALL women, their mothers/wives/sisters and daughters included and 
there pretty much isn't anything I can say that I haven't already said.  I'm 
getting tired of the sound of my voice as I'm sure lots of people are getting 
tired of reading it!  

Sexism is only going to go away as men gradually let one woman out and watch 
her like a hawk, which they are starting to do now grudgingly.  Soon they'll
realize that it's not going to mean the 'destruction of the family unit' so 
they'll let one more out and watch her.  

I don't know what kind of people they think we'll turn out to be with some 
real money and some real freedoms granted to us.  Nothing seems able to con-
vince them that the end result will be a world full of much happier, fulfilled
women who are STILL going to love their men and happily bear the next genera-
tion.  I only wish I could convince them of this but for now, men need to 
have their women below them in social/financial/you-name-it rank for their 
own security.  Again, my sweetie excepted, bless him!
    

re: .137

Thanx for sharing your story with us. The best part is you realized at the
end that the sort of brain games being played weren't what sex and intimacy
are really all about. People of both genders are effected by the strange
things our society says to us about sexuality. It certainly sounds like the
women you mentioned were.

re: .138

The DEC creedo is "Do the right thing". If the right thing is being
fair and accurate, then that's how I'll be, no matter how many other
people are not. It's the only way I can feel good about myself. I can't
see that giving others a taste of what it's like to be a woman is the
wrong thing, though. Your point about all women being evaluated by the
actions of each single woman is well taken. Just this weekend on 'BCN
I heard some guy saying he had an incompetent female boss, so all women
were incompetent in positions of authority. 'nuff said.
	Mez 

Sounds like you can empathize, Jim, with all of us who have said, "But
    I told him very clearly that I wasn't interested in sex!"

    RE: .140  "Homosexual assault"
    
    Jim, I think that it is inaccurate to say that sexual assaults happen
    "a lot less often" to boys and men, than to girls and women.  The
    additional "stigma" of having participated in a homosexual act,
    however unwillingly, makes the likelihood of such a crime being reported
    a lot lower. 
                                              

    Well, it came out.  My boss and I were having a heated discussion
    about violence wth two other (friends) in the car.  I feel violence
    is wrong, immoral, wrong, always.  Just my weirdo set of morals,
    but he was so shocked by it that he started up a pile of what-ifs,
    trying to find the point where physical violence is right for me:
     what if someone were going to torture your children (a tough one,
    but I have no children, so I don't know), what f someone were beating
    you up (I said that happened, and I was unable to hit back cause
    I never thought of it), what if you were being RAPED?  I said no,
    I wouldn't feel it was right even then.  He said, you're just saying
    that but if it ever happened, you'd change your mind.  So I said,
    it did happen, and I didn't kick or gouge eyeballs.
    
    Silence.  "Didn't you want to kill them?  What do you think should
    be done to rapists?  How did you feel about them, weren't you angry?"
    
    No I don't want them tortured, or to have their ******s cut off;
    I'd like them never, ever to be able to have an er***ion again,
    so they will never, ever again be able to "prove what men they are"
    that way, but no, I still don't think it would be right to hit them
    or break their arms.  I have never since that time thought it would
    be right.  It is our ability to think and communicate that separates
    us from animals, to react any other way is barbaric, brings us down
    to being sub-human.  No matter what they did to my body, they didn't
    destroy what makes me a human being, my ability to do things without
    resorting to physical violence.  I am not a body, and hurting my
    body will not destroy what is _me_.
    
    All that without crying, or even getting red-nosed as I am apt to
    do.  Poor guy; he didn't know what he was getting himself into.
     But...he asked.
    
    Lee
    
    BTW, my morals as stated above are not meant to be attacks on _any_one.
    And I don't want to get into a rat-hole on them, so if you disagree,
    lets agree to disagree (good phrase, Steve), and/or take that to
    another note.  
    
    

        Me, I'm a fighter. I'm not one who attacks but I've defended
        myself with fists and weapons and words and passive defiance and
        flight, each as the situation warranted. Let me say though, Lee,
        (may I call you Lee?), that I admire your stance greatly. 
        
        One of the most important things about fighting back is to not
        surrender to the barbarians of the world, not to let them steal
        from you what it is that makes you you. For you it is that you
        will not rise to violence, for me it is that I will not be
        manipulated by fear or guilt. 
        
        In your own non-violent way you are a fighter and a tough one.
        Stick to your guns. I admire your non-violence when faced with
        rape and your willingness to discuss such a deeply personal
        issue with us here, and with your boss. All of that takes
        courage. Well done, and I wish you well.
        
        JimB.

    re: .144
    
    Thanks to Ms. Tatistcheff for a very profound and compelling statement of
    principle!

        Study Claims High Degree of Sexual Assaults On Women

  New York (AP) -- Some 28 percent of college women have experienced rape 
  or attempted rape since age 14, according to a nationwide study that 
  said the rate is far higher than federal figures.

  "I wouldn't like to believe this is true, yet it is," said researcher 
  Mary Koss, who co-wrote a report on the study in the April issue of the 
  _Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology_.

  Along with previous studies that show similar or higher numbers among 
  other samples of women, "the message is that women are reporting a 
  widespread prevalence of these forms of intimate sexual violence" that 
  meet her study's definition of rape, said Koss, psychology professor 
  at Kent State University in Ohio.  

  She and two colleagues surveyed 3,187 women and 2,972 men at 32 
  institutions across the country, including colleges, junior colleges 
  and technical-vocational schools.  The women averaged 21 years old; 85 
  percent were single, and 86 percent were white.

  The sample generally conformed to the characteristics of students 
  enrolled in higher education institutions except for geographic 
  representation, and that was corrected statistically, researchers wrote.

  The study asked women if they had experienced sexual intercourse 
  against their will because a man gave them alcohol or drugs or 
  threatened or used force, or if they had unwillingly experience anal or 
  oral intercourse or penetration by objects because of physical force or 
  threats.  

  Using that definition of rape, the survey found 15.4 percent of women 
  had experienced rape and 12.1 percent more had experienced attempts.  
  Among men, 4.4 percent reported performing rapes and 3.3 percent 
  reported attempts.

  Researchers used a federal definition of rape to compare their results 
  with U.S. figures.  That definition is restricted to attempted or 
  actual vaginal intercourse achieved through force or threats, 
  researchers said.

  Under that definition, 38 women per 1,000 reported a rape in the 
  previous six months.  That is far greater than the federal National 
  Crime Survey rates of 3.9 per 1,000 for women ages 20 to 24.

  In an interview, Koss said her sample cannot directly be compared to 
  the federal samples because her work included only women attending 
  higher education institutions.  But the women her study overlooks may 
  well have higher rape rates because they would tend to be poorer, and 
  other studies show that women with lower income tend to have higher 
  rape rates, she said.

  She said she believes the federal survey overlooks many cases of rape 
  because it asks about crimes and many women who have been raped do not 
  consider the incident a crime.

  Apart from not knowing the legal definition of rape, some women to not 
  view a rape as a crime when the male is an acquaintance, she said.

  "They think rape is a public crime committed by a stranger," Koss said.

  Another researcher called Koss' work "a very, very important study.

  "I think it certainly gives us a much better picture than we've ever 
  had before about what the scope of rape is in a higher education 
  sample," said Dean Kilpatrick, director of the Crime Victims Research 
  and Treatment Center at the Medical University of South Carolina in 
  Charleston.  

    Reprinted without permission from the Boston Sunday Globe Parade.
    Author: Dr Joyce Brothers
    
    [advance apologies for typos.. my keyboard sticks]
    
    If a woman goes out on a date with a man, and he then forces her
    to have sex, is that rape?  The dictionary says it is, and so does
    the law.  Webster's defines rape as "sexual intercourse with a woman
    by a man without her consent and cheifly by force or deception"
    -- nothing to do with how well she knows him. [typists note: pretty
    sexist definition, there!]  Yet for many people, including most
    juries and even some women, criminal rape is ONLY sexual violation
    by a stranger.
    
    But, if anything, say experts, the emotional effects of rape by
    an acquaintance are more devastating.  One of the reasons is that
    these rapes generally have remained hidden, the many victims suffering
    in silence.
    
    A HIDDEN EPIDEMIC.  According to the FBI, there were 90,434 forcible
    rapes in 1986.  Between 1977 and 1986, their rate increased by 42
    percent -- making rape the most rapidly growing major crimein the
    US.  [bigmouthed typist's note: I wonder how much of that growth
    is actualy a growth in _reporting_ with the _actual_ rate itself
    dropping off, but a higher percentage being reported.  Hmm]  "It's
    an epidemic of sexual assault," says Diana Russel, a professor of
    sociology at Mills College in Oakland, Calif.  However, until recently,
    the high percentage of rape by an acquaintance -- sometimes called
    "date rape" -- was undocumented.
    
    In a landmark survey of 7000 students at 35 colleges and universities
    across the country, financed bt the National Institute of Mental
    Health, Mary P Koss of Kent State University discovered some startling
    facts: 
    
         o One woman student in eight had been raped, according to the 
           legal definition, IN THE YEAR PREVIOUS to the survey [stress 
           mine lt]. Rapes since the age of 14 raised the number to 25 
           percent. 
         o NINETY PERCENT OF THE WOMEN KNEW THEIR ASSAILANTS [stress
           hers], and 47 percent of the rapes were by first dates or
           by romantic acquaintances.
         o More than 90 percent of the women did not report the rape.
           One out of 12 men admitted to having fulfilled the prevailing
           definition of rape or attempted rape, yet none identified
           himself as a rapist
    
    Subsequent studies at individual colleges have confirmed these figures.
    They indicate that date rape occurs all over the country, in every
    socioeconomic group, and at every age.  The main victims, however,
    are women between 15 and 24.
    
    WHEN IS RAPE NOT RAPE?  When a victim of rape knows her attacker,
    particularly when it happens on a date, she rarely reports it. 
    in some cases, she does not even realize she has been raped.  Why?
    Because the rape wasn't perpetrated by a strange man who leaped
    out of the bushes or a dark alley with a weapon.  And because what
    is considered sexually permissible in a male/female relationship
    is still very ambiguous territory.
    
    Gloria Fisher, a psychologist, surveyed more than 400 students at
    Washington State University and found that 5 percent of the women
    and 19 percent of the men did not define forcible sex or the man's
    coercion as unacceptable behavior.  Rather, they felt that, UNDER
    CERTAIN CONDITIONS [stress hers], it might be acceptable for a man
    to force sex on his companion.  These included if the cuple had
    been dating for a long time, if she had let him fondle her, if she
    wasn't a virgin [typist's not: GAG ME!!] or if she had "led him
    on."
    
    It's not just students.  Insociety at large, I have found, people
    aren't always sure when to call it rape and when to excuse the man's
    behavior by choosing to see the woman as provocative or naive.
    
    Milly, a patient of mine, was raped by a neighbor, the husband of
    a good friend, who offered to paint her house and decided that sex
    on demand would be appropriate payment.  Joan was raped by a co-worker
    whom she had dated occasionally.  He called one night and said he
    was blue and needed someone to tal to.  Could he come over?  How
    could Joan refuse?  He stopped by, but tal wasn't what he had on
    his mind.  Was Joan guilty of naivete?
    
    WHOM CAN YOU TRUST? Almost all victims of sexual assault suffer
    from post-traumatic stress syndrome, whose symptoms include nightmares,
    anxiety, and sleeplessness.  But I have found the PSYCHOLOGICAL
    consequences of date rape to be far greater.
    
    When a friend or acquaintance rapes, the victim tends to blame herself.
    "It made me question myself more," says Devon.  "I had to as, 'What
    does this say about my judgement of people, about my behavior?'
     People are accusatory because I didn't fight him off.  I feel guilty,
    but there's nothing I could have done."
    
    "Psychologically, date rape is the most trust-deadening thing that
    can happen to you," Devon adds.  "That a man I dated can use his
    physical power as a weapon in an argument, to compel me to do something
    -- it makes me think that even if I'm careful, I could never now."
     While Devon has dated other men since the rape, she admits she
    sometimes feels an unaccountable rage toward the man she is seeing.
    
    "Wondering forever after whom she can trust is frequently a more
    difficult hurdle for the victim of rape by an acquaintance to overcome
    than the rape itself," points out Margaret Reiss, a social worker
    in San Francisco.
    
    WHY VICTIMS KEEP SILENT.  Only one in about 10 rapes is reported
    at all, but the ratio is even lower when the rapist is an acquaintance.
     Victims have given several reasons for this: 1) She is abbivalent
    abut her own role in provoking the crime -- even if she did nothing.
    2) Reporting a husband's best friend or a popular member of a group
    can destroy a whole socia cmplex.  3) The date who is raped often
    is not believed.  As Devon puts it, "A lot of people wonder if you
    were asking for it."  4) Jurors can be even more dubious.  The rate
    of conviction for the smalll percentage of rape cases brught to
    trial is shockingly low.  In my experiance, the woman who DOES report
    a rape by an acquaintance frequently just compounds her trauma.
    
    Although most states have enacted laws to protect a rape victim
    from being questioned about her lifestyle or sexual history -- called
    "rape shield laws" -- victims are still being tried in court along
    with those accused of raping them, says Barbara Reskin, a professor
    of sociology at the University of Illinois.  Reskin's research team
    sat in on 37 sexual-assault trials in Indianapolis.  They then
    interviewed 360 jurors who had served during those trials.
    
    Indianapolis was chosen because of its rape shield laws.  Despite
    the laws, however, defense lawyers managed to bring up details of
    the victim's life that they thought the jurors might find unsavory.
    They did this by asking questions that might be struck from the
    record but that nevertheless stuck in many of the jurors' minds.
    These jurors said that they weren't supposed to be judgmental, but
    that they were.
    
    they were less sympathetic to victims who were unwed mothers or
    who were sexually active.  They discounted the testimony of women
    who smoked marijuana, frequented bars and kept late hours.  On the
    ther hand, if a man was wel-groomed, married, or had a girfriend,
    the jurors found it difficult to see him as a rapist.  And when
    he was acquainted with the woman, they tended to feel that she might
    have lured him simply by agreeing to go out with him.  "The victim
    most likely to be taken seriously," says Professor Reskin, "is married
    and assaulted in her own home when the door is locked."
    
    ATTITUDES CAN BE DANGEROUS.  Why is there so much sexual aggression,
    especially among the young, and why is our society so slow to recognize
    it?  Clearly, Ingrained assumptions about male and female sexual
    roles determine how young people behave in sexual relationships.
    
    Three Texas psychologists probed the attitudes of 268 college men
    aged 19.  The researchers found that the men fell into two groups:
    those who held traditional views of sex roles and those who didn't.
    The traditionalists thought that men, not women, should ask for
    dates, pay for dates, make decisions about datng activity and initiate
    any intimate behavior.  The nontraditionalists believed in equality
    between the sexes.  [typist's note: sounds pretty simplified and
    judgemental to me.  I'd like to see the questionaire]
    
    The men were presented with different scenarios: In some, the woman
    asked men out or bore all the expenses of the evening.  In others,
    the couple spent the evening alone in the man's apartment or went
    to a movie.  The college men were asked to indicate in which of
    these dating situations the man would be justified in forcing his
    attention on the woman against her will.
    
    The good news is that 80 percent of the men said that "rape" was
    never justified -- under any circumstance.  the bad news is that
    20 percent felt that, in some instances, it was.  Most of these
    young men held traditional views of sex roles.  They believed that
    a woman was leading a man on if she asked him for a date, went with
    him to his apartment or allowed him to pay for all the expenses.
    Most traditionalists, and even some nontraditionalists, believed
    that this implied a sexual invitation, which the woman had no right
    to withdraw later on.
    
    i believe that early education is critical to change these "macho"
    attitudes and that women must learn in what ways their actions can
    be misinterpreted by the men they meet.
    
    FIGHTING DATE RAPE.  In addition to advocating greater awareness
    for women, most experts stress that date rape is not simply a WOMAN'S
    problem.  Early education, they stress, is the best way to teach
    men to respect the women they date and to break this dangerous pattern.
    Here are some of the ways date rape is being fought:
    
         o Acknowledging the problem.  Since colleges and universities
           have learned about the prevalence of rape on their campuses,
           they have begun to address the problem.  Many -- like Stanford,
           Cornell, Ohio State and the University of Florida -- have
           established anti-rape workshops and/or counseling services.
           Since freshmen are considered most vulnerable, many educators
           feel the workshops should be required for students as soon
           as they enter college.  Resource books for parents of high
           school students are available from Alternatives to Fear,
           Dept P, 1605 Seventeenth Ave, Seattle, Wash, 98122.
         o Toughening the law.  In California, a joint resolution that
           would direct colleges to actively investigate rapes n campuses,
           even if the victims do not file criminal charges, has been
           introduced in the State Legislature.  It also requires that
           the universities establish explicit sexual codes of conduct
           to combat assaults against college women.  Some universities,
           lie Washington State University, already have done that.
         o Improving communication.  A date rape often starts with misread
           sexual signals.  Discussion groups, in which men and women
           talk openly about sexual attitudes and expectations, have
           been helpful.  For some men, sexual aggression is normal
           male behavior.  They may interpret a woman's invitation as
           a come-on, her "no" as flirtatious or coy.  Talking can help
           women recognize these attitudes.  It can also dispel prevailing
           myths about rape, such as that there's no such thing as rape
           on a date, and that women enjoy rape [GAG] or deserve it.
         o Learning to resist.  Anti-rape workshops teach women to
           recognize rape when it happens, to fight it and report it.
           Women who may say "no" too softly are urged to speak forcefully.
           Studies show that screamng and physically resisting an attacker
           is usually more effective than reasoning or pleading -- even
           when the rapist is an acquaintance.
         o Breaking the cycle of violence.  Datw rape is part of a spectrum
           of violent relationships -- including verbal and physical
           abuse -- that often starts in the teen years.  According
           to a study by five researchers at Oregon State University,
           well over 12 percent of 644 high school students surveyed
           experienced physical abuse on a date.  I believe parents
           can protect children from accepting violence within an intimate
           relationship by clearly separating love and violence in the
           home, teaching children to respect themselves and others
           and recognize sexual violence as the criminal behavior it
           is.
         o What to do.  The first thing the victim of any rape should
           do is TELL SOMEONE.  One of the biggest problems in date
           rape is that the victims are too ashamed to talk about it.
           The person told shoud stress that what happened was not the
           woman's fault and offer support.  Any rape victim should
           also get a medical exam as soon as possible.  Later, the
           woman should talk to a counselor about the pros and cons
           of reporting the rape to the police.
    ------------------------
    For more infoormation, write to: National Organization for Victim
    Assistance, Dept P, 717 "D" St, NW, Washington, DC, 20004.

re Note 189.148 by Lee T"
   thanks for entering the article.

>    When a friend or acquaintance rapes, the victim tends to blame herself.
>    ... 'What does this say about my judgement of people, about my behavior?'

There are mountains of evidence that show "first impressions" are often
wildly wrong.  Most of us, however, get to update our judgements slowly so
our errors are not suddenly and brutally brought home to us.  (Doubters
might try keeping a written 'impressions' diary the next time they switch
social environments. A humbling experience.)

>   [jurors] were less sympathetic to victims who were unwed mothers or
    who were sexually active.  

By analogy, this means it's OK to rob a Rockerfeller who has a history of 
giving away money.  But the analogy makes people scream "that's different." 

    I believe one interpretation of the difference is as follows. 
    
    PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT MY PERSONAL VIEW OF THE MATTER.
    
    A philanthropist who gives away a lot of money still owns much property.
    The thief is taking that property.
    
    A woman who is openly promiscuous has lost her virtue. A rapist cannot
    take what she no longer has.
    
    /. Ian .\

    

    Good that you put in the disclaimer, Ian :-)
    
    I expect the sexist nature of that argument is apparent to everyone,
    but just in case...
    
    What makes a woman who is sexually active "lose her virtue"?
    Considering that "virtue" is synonymous with "essence" (to the extent
    at least that the terms have been used interchangeably in this
    connection), it sounds as though to retain our status as "real"
    women we've to remain virgins.
    
    *barf*
                                  		=maggie

    Right on Maggie!
    
    Marty H

    re: .153
    
    That sounded good.
    
    re: maggie - I agree  -  get a me a barf bag....
    
    _peggy
    
    	(-)
    	 |	A woman without a man
    			is like a fish without a ....
    

    actually, my reaction to Ian's note was "well _this_ is one perspective
    we would miss if men didn't contribute to this file."
    
    The question as to why a "promiscuous" woman "can't" be raped is
    one we ask ourselves many times.  My (female) opinion was that this
    view stemmed from the idea that a promiscuous woman OWES it to ANY
    man to have sex with him, and that he was only taking what was
    "rightfully" his and "wrongfully" denied to him.
    
    I do not believe this view; it's just one attempt at figuring out
    an attitude held by others.
    
    I never thought in terms of "virtue" and Ian's suggestion seemed
    a plausible explanation for this weird attitude.
    
    Lee

    In the state of Massachusetts, assault mean that someone frightened
    you, put you in fear that they would harm you,.. battery means that
    someone touched you without your permission.
    
    So if you were walking down the street and choose not to wave hello
    to a neighbor, and that neighbor came at you, grabbed your hand
    and waved it.. he could be convicted of assault and battery.. (maximum
    sentence ... three to six months in jail)
    No questions about whether you are a friendly person, about whether
    or not you have waved to other people, about whether or not he deserved
    to get waved at... just assault and battery.. simple, right?
    
    NOW, if that same neighbor decided that you should have sex with
    him and *forced* you to do so.. it becomes a question of whether or
    not you are promiscuous?  There is a complete lack of logic in that
    reasoning.  Rape is a very nasty form of assault and battery and
    should be viewed as such.

    People have traditionally been quite good about rationalizing their
    unacceptable behavior when it is directed toward getting something
    they want.

    As I said earlier the virtue line was not my opinion, but I once served
    on the jury on a rape case (in England). There were 9 men and 3 women
    on the jury. The men were for conviction (all of us) and all three of
    the women came up with the "she's no better than she ought to be" line,
    and we wound up with the slime getting off on a hung jury (at the retrial
    the woman wouldn't put herself through the agony again and refused to
    testify - he got off on insufficient evidence).
             
    ---
    
    Not quite on the point, but I ask your perserverence for a slight
    diversion.
    
    When I was small I had a maiden aunt, who was then in her 90s, who
    mysteriously (to me) had a son (who I called "Uncle George", though he
    was actually my cousin). I was aware (as 8 year olds often are) that
    Aunt Bella was somehow different from the rest of the familly and treated
    oddly, and not just because of her age.
    
    I eventually discovered that back in the 1870s, Bella had been employed
    as a 'Tweenie' (junior maid) in a local house, and the son of the house
    had gotten her pregnant. She had been paid off by the familly (they
    bought her a house, settled a pension on her and quietly paid for the
    son's education in return for their name being kept unsullied). Despite
    the fact that this had happened 80 years before; despite the change
    in morallity this was still a "shame on the familly name".
    
    Whilst not "date rape" this was in fact a case of statutory rape (Bella
    was under 16 at the time). No thought was ever made of prosecuting:
    a jury of the time would not have had any thought of convicting.
    
    Why is this relevant: because a century later people of my parents age
    are predominant on [British] juries. They still have a morallity set
    that blames the woman. 
    
    Attitudes are changing, and the reaction in this file is refreshing.
    But most of us here are a generation younger. And even in our generation
    there is a degree of ambivalence, especially amongst the less well
    educated. Change is not abrupt, and things like this take generations
    to happen. Our children's generation will be largely free of this, but
    still affected [after all TV content and style is largely a reflection
    of the money-men of our parents generation who control the networks].
    It will probably take another generation, maybe two before this antique
    attitude finally disappears, and the "Bellas" of this world are no more
    than the ghost of a memory, a mere footnote in a social history text
    of the 22nd century.
    
    /. Ian .\

RE: .0-.147

I've read it, I've heard most of it before in other notes, I'm glad I took the
time to read it, some I've agreed with, some I've disagreed with.  I think I'll
skip the majority, except apoligize for the men, and women who create the world
in which this happens, and to ask to be treated as an individual, as I try to
do.  If nothing else, it's helped me to keep from hating women by realizing that
lots of people suffer variously through life. 

Now, onward...

RE: .148

"One woman student in eight had been raped, according to the legal definition,
IN THE YEAR PREVIOUS to the survey [stress mine lt]. Rapes since the age of 14
raised the number to 25 percent."

This seems like an odd statistic... it's the wrong 'shape'.  If one in eight
have been raped in the previous year, then a lot more then one in four should
have been raped since they were 14.  Assuming that the average woman was 20 at
the time of the survey, the chance of not being raped since age 14 would be: 7/8
**(20-14) = 45%.  55% of the women being raped since age 14 is a long way from
25% the survey says.  This is only a straight extrapolation, assuming everything
else is equal. 

RE: .150

"A woman who is openly promiscuous has lost her virtue. A rapist cannot take
what she no longer has." 
    
Just to complicate matters, isn't the rapist throwing away their virtue in
the act (*YES*), and can then be raped themselves?

Going around in circles even more...  (on the light side)

How many people have ever been on one side of the other of the joking remark:

'...  I won't let you rape me, because if you did, I'd let you, and then it
wouldn't be rape...'

Does this contribute to the problem?  (please engage brain before mouth)

Too bad that doesn't work as a defense in real rapes... :-<<<

Jim whose brain is whirling around in circles...

    re the questions on statistics (.160)
    
    It seems to me that a porion of women who were raped young were
    raped repetitively (ie: at home or in the cycle of an abusive
    relationship). 
    
    But your #s are interesting... Hmm, maybe the chance of not being
    raped changes with age??
    
    I still wish I could see their raw data.  Pretty horriffic.
    
    Lee

    Maybe a lot go unreported.

RE: -.1

Can you be a bit more specific as to what you are thinking about?  If it
were as plain as "maybe a lot go unreported", then how come we're hearing
about it?

Jim.

    According to the statistics from Rape Crisis Centers in Massachusetts
    (as collected by Dept of Public Health), for every 1000 rapes reported
    to the Rape Crisis Centers, 3 are brought to trial, and out of those
    3, 1 rapist is convicted of the crime of rape.  I believe that those
    statistics are typical nationwide.
    
    Tamar

    When I younger, the first real physical relationship I had was with
    a guy I started seeing not long out of high school.  I lived at
    home, he lived at home, so "opportunities" were scarce.  My standards
    may have slipped a little at the time, but I would never allow anything
    to happen in my mother's house.  Seemed like such a slap in her
    face.
    
    One day my wonderful "boyfriend" was over my house and horny as
    hell.  He decided we were going to do what he wanted no matter what.
    He dragged me into my room and forced me to "do it a little different
    this time".  The pain and humiliation was incredible.  I mean I
    screamed, and he just didn't care.  We had been seeing each other\
    almost a year, talk about feeling betrayed!
    
    And who do you tell?  Who's going to sympathize when you've been
    having a sexual relationship with the man all along.  Sure I had
    to see a doctor, the physcial damage took a long time to heal, but
    how do you go to the police?  Or face your family and friends?
    
    I felt like I had been some kind of tease, and got what I deserved.
    Boy has my outlook changed since!  I just thank God I didn't lose
    hold of myself, and can still enjoy a relationship with a man. 
    But I will admit to anxiety attacks if I feel any tension or 
    frustration build up in someone I have said "no" to, and it takes
    a while to say "yes".
    

Thank you for sharing that.  There are people that you can tell and
who will sympathize.  How do we let people know about them?  I imagine
that besides the terrible feeling of betrayel, guilt etc. is the awful
feeling of being alone.

    Cathy...weep ever more softly because the future holds such promise.
    The first step is realization...and now there is no limit to how
    happy you can be.  
    
    I was never raped, but there were times when I felt so unattractive
    and uncared-for that I "picked up" some friends for the wrong reasons,
    and they took full advantage of the situation.  Although we never
    "got laid" (I can hardly call it making love in this case), I paid physical
    attention to them at their request, and with no chance of their
    reciprocating.  I felt sad, and cheapened, and eventually realized
    that it wasn't ME they liked it was what I was offering them.  They
    were looking for "a hole with a skirt on", and once I realized this
    the problem was half-solved.  Rebuilding a feeling of self-confidence
    is much less difficult with a positive-force SO in your life.
    
    Good luck.

    -Jody
    

    That's a real intense, real brave note, Cathy.  Know that there
    are many ready and willing to help and support you in your work.
    I sincerely hope you experiences will allow you to let go of
    feelings of "disgust" for your former self; I know that it's
    especially difficult for ACOAs, but I also know that it *is* 
    possible to learn to forgive and cherish the one who was, for 
    she was only doing the best she could with the information 
    she had.  
    
    Courage and peace,
    
    Steve
    

    I am truly sorry but due to very personal reasons, note 189.167
    has been deleted.
    
    Cathy   :-(

There's an interesting article hidden away in the back of today's (Nov. 6)
Boston Globe by one of their columnists.  (Can't remember if it's "Woman
at Work" or "Single File".)

Author started out by saying to a group of four friends, "if all those
statistics on rape/assault were true, every woman would have been attacked."

She's met with absolute dead silence.

Eventually people started talking/sharing experiences of being grabbed
by boyfriends, or dirty old men on the street; of being punched around, etc.

Martin.

    The column Martin mentioned is "Ever so Humble" by Linda Weltner.
    It's on p. 54.
    
    Liz

    Ok, I'm new to this conference and 172 replies is a lot to read through
    so I apologise if this has been covered already, but can someone offer
    opinions on these points ?


    1.  How much can a man do (physically) against a woman's wishes before
        it becomes rape ?  Legally or morally.

    2.  If a woman submits to the 'if you really loved me' thing or something
        similarly deceptive and says yes on the strength of that, could this
        not be classified, morally if not legally, as a kind of rape ?


    John

    P.s. I have my own answers to the moral questions but I'll keep them to
    myself for now.

    re .173:  Good questions, John.  Make me stop and ponder.  The second
    is easier for me:
    
>   2.  If a woman submits to the 'if you really loved me' thing or something
>       similarly deceptive and says yes on the strength of that, could this
>       not be classified, morally if not legally, as a kind of rape ?
     
    My feeling is that if there has been a "no" said out loud, it takes
    a verbal "yes" to cancel it.  While that may not be the legal
    definition, I think it is a good one.  After a "no", no amount of
    body language or "subtle hints" will do; "no" means "no" until it
    is cancelled by a "yes".
    
    But the pressure trips ("if you loved me" is one of the milder ones
    for me.  The harder ones run more along the lines of "lack of desire
    now = frigidity = sick <> real woman".) can be horribly effective,
    and leave one feeling just as soiled.  I think they are wrong morally,
    but because they can be so complex, and I am willing to believe
    that a man may apply them without knowing the harm he is doing (or
    that a woman can be so brainwashed by society that she will apply
    them to herself, without any help from the specific man involved),
    that I would be very reluctant to put someone in jail for using
    them.
    
    I would also be reluctant to be even remotely civil to any man who
    tried that on me.  
    
>   1.  How much can a man do (physically) against a woman's wishes before
>       it becomes rape ?  Legally or morally.

    Morally?  A peck on the cheek or an arm on the waist are a violation if
    I do not want them.  They can make me feel soiled.  And I know others
    (mostly rape victims) who feel likewise.  Any time I am touched by a
    stranger (relatively speaking, say, an acquaintance or a co-worker) my
    mind goes into hyper-time, quickly summing up the reasons behind that
    touch, the likelihood of future threat from hat person, whether or not
    I like him enough -- platonically or romantically -- to enjoy such
    closeness or to permit it.  Then I either sit back and enjoy it, or
    make sure never to sit or stand anywhere near that person. 
    
    [no fair!!! the mind screams.  Why do I have to be so cautious?]
    
    While my feelings on that are quite clear, I still have a hard time
    condemning the man who may mean no harm or threat whatsoever.  How
    the heck is HE suppose to know how I feel?  Read my mind?  I guess
    I figure that any "yellow lights" from me mean "back off NOW --
    I'll let you know if I change my mind".
    
    Lee

RE: -.1

"Morally?  A peck on the cheek or an arm on the waist are a violation if I do
 not want them.  They can make me feel soiled. ... Then I either sit back and
 enjoy it, or make sure never to sit or stand anywhere near that person. 

 no fair!!! the mind screams.  Why do I have to be so cautious?"

Gee...  Sure makes it hard to show someone that they are important for the first
time...  Not Fair to both sides... 

What kinds of "Yellow Lights" have people given/received what have or haven't
worked?

Jim.

The new (Feb. 88) issue of New England Monthly has a long article on
a "date rape" that occurred at the University of New Hampshire.

Interesting reading, but somewhat depressing.

Martin.

    Martin,
    
    I don't get the New England Monthly, can you tell me where I can
    find it or maybe you or someone else can type the article in here.
    
    cin

The article looks to be about 10,000 words long.  It is copyrighted.
New England Monthly is widely available on local (New England) newsstands.

Note that this is the February issue (with a skiier on the cover), and
might not be on newsstands -- I'm a subscriber.

Martin.