Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    <--(.0) 
    
    " I guess things aren't sexist if they've been done like that
    for years without complaints." 
          
    =============================================================
    
    Riiiiiiiiiight.
    
    I think you're right, Karen:  it ain't the conscious sexism that'll
    do us all in, it's all these wretched little taken-for-granted-cuz-
    they've-been-done-like-that-since-Christ-was-a-corporal things,
    the unexamined stuff.  
    
    <*arrrrgghh*> 
    
    					=maggie

    
    This summer I bought a new car.  When I applied for the loan I listed
    the car loan I'd had on my old car which I was trading in.  I had
    bought the car six years previously when I was still married.  At
    the time I bought the first car General Motors Acceptance Corp.
    had said that since I was married and my husband made twice as much
    money as me that the credit had to be under his name as well as
    mine.  We didn't like that idea since it was going to be my car,
    but they refused to just put the car under my name.  So, everything
    concerning the car was under both names - registration, insurance,
    car loan payment book.  But, *I* am the one who actually paid for
    the car for 4 yrs.  WELL, this summer when I listed that car loan
    as a reference (it had been paid off for 2 years), I was told by
    General Motors Accept. Corp. that they had no record of my ever
    having a loan with them.  I said, well, look under Robert.  It was
    under both names and is probably filed under *his* name.  It was
    filed under *his* name alright.  In fact, according to GMAC *my*
    name was nowhere to be found anywhere in the file.  THEREFOR, *I*
    can never use as a credit reference a car that I paid on for 4 yrs.
     However, my ex-husband can feel free to add this car loan to his
    growing list of good credit references (including everything we
    ever bought together during a 12 1/2 yr. marriage).  I, on the other
    hand, am just starting out at the age of 37 with my *very first*
    credit reference, the new car loan in my name.  Seems funny that
    I had to work and help pay for 12 years for a condominium, a house,
    4 cars, and several major credit cards, and still not be considered
    to have ever had any credit.  Ah yes, sexism is indeed alive and
    well.
    
    Lorna
    

    And, not 15 minutes ago, I had the following "over_the_cubicle"
    dialogue with a male colleague:
    
    He (to anyone in general):  Who took this phone message?  It looks
         like a girl's handwriting.
    
    Me:  There's no such thing as male and female handwriting.  
    
    He:  Oh yes there is.  This was written by a girl.  Did you write
         it?
    
    Me:  No, I didn't write it.  But please, there is no male/female...
         handwriting is handwriting.  I think I hear some sexism in
         your voice.
    
    He:  I'm not a sexist!  This was written by a girl.
    
    		(and, just seconds later...)
    
    He:  Oops, sorry.  Harry wrote the message...so I guess you're
         right...but, I still think....
    
    
    /Jo-Ann

	And, yesterday I noticed that signs for a DEC discount to a Bruins
	(hockey, for those not in Massachusetts) game were posted on the
	doors to the men's rooms, and not the women's rooms.  I explained
	that I felt uncomfortable standing in front of the men's room door
	to our local recreation group, and you'll be happy to know that
	the signs were moved this morning.

	...Karen

It's enough to make you steam....  

Taking a male friend out to lunch with the intent to pick up the check 
and they deliver it to HIM!  I politely corrected the waiter, plopped
down my credit card, and when he brought back the slip, he handed it back
to my male friend.  

"You're not expecting a tip, are you?"  I asked the waiter.

"I'm sorry.  I'm used to giving it to the guy!" he offered.

"Next time, AT LEAST hand it to the same sex that is on the card!" and
ANYONE who's using a credit card that's STILL in her husband's name is
ASKING for trouble!!!!

AARGH!!!!

But there have been small (read minute, teeny-tiny, almost spec-like)
wins in this area.  I won a civil case against a furniture company in
Boston who denied me credit for financing of the couch of my dreams,
claiming that I didn't make enough money.  They wanted 'Daddy' to
cosign it for me.  I had 2 previous car loans paid off, 2 major credit
cards, and umpteen store cards, thereby making an IMPECCABLE credit
rating.  With the help of the Massachusetts Council Against Discrimination
we brought them around to my way of thinking and the couch was financed
without a cosignor.

When making a major purchase, however, I can still see the salesperson
point the signing pen in my husband's direction, at which time he grins and
hands it to me.

The car dealer tells ME about the color of the interior and tells my
husband about the size of the engine....

And those stupid coupon packets keep coming addressed to me....

Bugsy

    
    The following is a situation that my SO and I seem to find ourselves
    in frequently.  We will both be in line to buy something like cookies,
    fudge, chocolates, or ice cream or whatever.  My turn will come
    and I will be waited on.  Then, my SO starts to give his order only
    to find the the cashier is starting to wait on the person in back
    of him!  He'll say something like, "Excuse me, but I believe I'm
    next."  The cashier will look at he and I in amazement and say,
    "But, I thought you were together!"  At this point his standard
    line is, "What?  Her!  I don't even know this woman!"  He then gets
    to give his order.  The same thing has happened to me when he's
    given his order first, too.  Only I don't have any funny lines to
    come back with.  I just get indignant that cashiers and sales people
    seem to think that just because a man and a woman are together that
    they are going to be paying for everything *together*.  We live
    together but we each pay our own way.  (He has custody of two daughters
    and can't afford to pay my way through life as well.)  But, a lot
    of people seem to think that if a woman is with a man, they must
    pool their money.  I just get upset about losing my turn in line
    because the person at the cash register thinks that *he* just bought
    me what *I* want, when in fact he got what he wanted and I'm still
    waiting to buy mine!
    
    Lorna
    

        When we decided to get our gravel driveway paved, we chose
        a company which had done a good job down the street (actually,
        we got lucky, because the other driveway fell apart soon
        after, but ours is still perfect after 4 years).  Anyway,
        the guy who runs the company is a very unpleasant scruffy
        sort of character who did his best to totally ignore my wife.
        
        She had called to make the appointment.  He told her to make
        sure that her husband was there (grr already, and we ain't
        even met the jerk yet).  So he showed up at the house before
        we took off for work, and started talking to me.  If Barbara
        asked a question, he ignored it.  If she made some statement
        about how we wanted the driveway, he looked to me for
        confirmation.  If he asked a question, he asked me.  I utterly
        refused to talk to him.  It was pleasant to be able to stand
        up for Barbara and simultaneously make him extraordinarily
        uncomfortable.  I spent most of the session staring blankly
        off into space, or looking to Barbara with a puzzled expression,
        rather expecting that eventually he'd get the message.  I'm
        not sure he really did... he kept talking to me, although
        he did appear to listen to what Barbara said.  Ah, well.
        
        Then, of course, there was the IRS.  They became thoroughly
        confused when we submitted our first joint return after we
        got married.  Seems they had difficulty with two separate
        names... their reason for complaint, however, was that her
        name "didn't match her SS number".  We had to go to the local
        IRS office to try to figure out what their problem was. 
        The woman (yes, woman) at the desk was very helpful.  Or
        at least *she* thought she was being helpful: she was willing
        (well, *eager*) to give us the form which would "solve all
        our problems": a form to change Barbara's name.  Sheesh.
        After quite a bit of effort, we finally convinced her the
        problem was entirely on their side, and things worked out:
        we never did really find out what was screwing them up, but
        we can only guess that they wiped out when her SS number
        wasn't owned by "Barbara Butenhof"... totally ignoring the
        "Barbara Bazemore" we'd written on the return.  It's annoying
        to have someone think I'm married to my mother (my mother's
        name just happens to be Barbara Butenhof).
        
        Someone mentioned the coupon books... most of ours are addressed
        to "resident", who we figure must be one strange person.
        As it happens, Barbara is the one who collects coupons in
        our family anyway... I'm afraid that denominations much smaller
        than dollar bills never really had much significance to me:
        certainly not enough to bother cutting out, sorting, and
        saving coupons.  Barbara, on the other hand, is thoroughly
        fascinated with money in any form, and I think life truely
        began for her when she got her first financial calculator...
        :-) <that's a joke... I think... maybe not...>
        
        As for buying ice cream and such... it's generally whoever
        is fastest on the draw with the wallet, or has the most cash
        on hand.  We rarely pay for things separately.  Among other
        things, it prevents anyone from being ignored: they're very
        attentive until they've got their money.
        
        	/dave

    I recently received some junk mail at work from L'eggs (the
    pantyhose people) addressed to
    
    	FEMALE CO-WORKERS OF
    	PAUL BECK
    	DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP
    	... etc ...
    
    Nothing ostensibly sexist here, though the thought that I'm about
    to xerox their order form and give it to all the women I work
    with is a bit peculiar. I was later told that they used to mail
    these forms to
    
    	SECRETARY OF
    	name_from_their_purchased_mailing_list
    	etc.
    
    My guess is that they took some flak for this approach and have
    attempted to achieve the same ends with the modified wording.

    At supper last night my eigth grade daughter was talking about going
    out for football. I started raising some objections and she asked
    me why I was being more cautious with her then I had been for her
    older brother when he went out for football last year. I stopped
    and asked if they thought I was being sexist. My oldest son answered
    "yep!" Sigh. she's trying out this afternoon. 

Dave, I AM the coupon-clipper of the family, but I *resent* it
when I get stuff addressed to "Mrs. Resident"!

Oh, but I have a small win that my sister-in-law told me about.  When
Pam is home she frequently answers calls that are for Dahlberg
Construction, my brother's self-owned, self-operated construction outfit.

A few weeks ago she took a call from a guy who wanted a new ceiling,
ceiling fan, and skylight installed.  He said," I'd really like to get
an estimate really soon so you can start work... when can you come over..?"

So Pam said," Well, the person who would do that isn't here right now,
so I can't give you a time for coming over right now..."

"Oh...." he said hesitently." ... it isn't you?"

She said "No, but thank you very much for assuming it was!"

And Jon said that the guy was a little, roundish, Italian stogey-smoker....

Wow!! What a surprise!

Oh, by the way, if anyone NEEDS any jobs around the house done, he's
really reasonable and very talented... and he's not prone to piggy little
sexisms because he knows his big sister will clean his clock!!

He'll also travel and he CLEANS UP after himself!!!!

Sorry, Mags, if that's illegal!!!!!

Bugsy

        .11: Actually, *I'm* the one who gets annoyed when Barbara
        gets "Mrs. Butenhof" type stuff.  Barbara just shrugs it
        off philosophically.  I've often threatened to just toss
        stuff like that in the garbage, but she won't let me unless
        it's obviously total junk anyway.  <sigh>.
        
        
        
        On the other side of sexism, I have a friend named Tracy
        who regularly gets all the ads and samples of pantyhose,
        tampons, perfume, etc.  *He's* not extremely crazy about all
        this.  He once got a letter to "Mr. and Mrs. ..." from his
        mortgage company.  You see, his father had co-signed on the
        mortgage, and whoever read the files to write this letter
        assumed they were married... arrgh!
        
        	/dave

    My brother's girlfriend works at a Radio Shack.  She'll get calls
    at the store where the person (read that as equal to male person)
    on the other end first asks if there is a guy around to answer his
    questions.
    
    One day she got a call from a male person who asked to speak to
    'a guy' and she said she'd be happy to answer his question.  He
    did go ahead and ask it. The answer was not to his liking and he
    again asked to 'talk to someone in charge', whereas Jean handed over
    the phone to her male co-worker and heard him saying 'yup, that's
    right...just like she said...yes, just like she told you.'

    
    Re assumptions about Mr. & Mrs., this past summer my SO's youngest
    daughter signed up for softball and then changed her mind and asked
    for a refund.  When the refund came in the mail it was addressed
    to Mr. & Mrs. Sawyer, and the actual check was made out payable
    to "Mr. & Mrs. Sawyer".  Well, there is *no* Mrs. Sawyer so he just
    signed the back of the check and tried to cash it at a DCU branch.
     The teller refused to cash the check because "his wife" hadn't
    signed the check.  (I actually think this is a step forward because
    in the old days men probably could get away with cashing checks
    made out to both - my ex did once.)  Anyway, he said that he didn't
    have a wife so how could he have her sign the check, that it was
    a false assumption on the part of the person who wrote out the check.
     The DCU teller said that she (it was a woman) still couldn't cash
    the check as it was made out to "Mr. & Mrs." and he was just the
    "Mr.".  So, he disgustedly asked me to sign the back of the check
    "Lorna Sawyer" which I did.  Then he asked the teller to cash the
    check to which she angrily told him that now she really wouldn't
    cash the check because if I wasn't really his wife it would be fraud.
     SO, the he had to request a new check made out only to himself.
     All that grief because *someone* just assumed that a 12 year old
    girl who signs up for softball will naturally have a mother and
    a father.  I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that in this
    day and age!
    
    Lorna
    

Speaking of the IRS . . .

I'm the one in our family who always does the income tax forms.  When I did
our first joint return after we got married (this was for 1976), I filled
in our names as "Jane W. and C. Patrick Ryer", listed my Social Security
number in the space labeled "your Social Security number", and listed
my husband's SS# in the space labeled "spouse's Social Security number".
(They were at least giving the illusion of not being sexist by saying
"spouse" rather than "wife".)  Well, the return comes back in the mail,
saying that our Social Security numbers are incorrect.  I called the IRS
to check it out (since the numbers WERE correct  on the form!), and the
woman I talked with said that the husband's SS# had to be in the first space
and the wife's in the second, even though I had listed my name first on the
form!  I don't know if they've cleaned up their act since then - I didn't
want to risk delaying my refund in future years by testing the system again,
so I still fill it out with his SS# in the first box and mine in the second.
(My greed is stronger than my feminism!)

Jane

        .15: Whee!!  Just as well that I fill out our tax forms,
        I guess... the combination of our name problem and your SS
        ordering problem probably would've had the IRS in a tizzy
        for years!  :-)
        
        I suppose you can't expect much more from an agency which
        supposedly processed (at least until recently) its data on
        an obsolute IBM machine which was emulating an even more
        obsolete IBM machine, entirely off of magnetic tape...
        
        	/dave

    My husband and I opened a joint Visa account to be used specifically
    for purchases relating to the house, which is a 3 family, so that
    I would be able to separate the interest payments and other expenses
    for our taxes more easily.  This is the only charge account in both
    names, as I wanted to keep my own credit.  I always found it annoying
    that the bank would send all the bills addressed to both of us,
    and I would always be the one to pay them, but whenever we got a
    letter telling us how wonderful the credit rating was and that we
    should increase our limit, it always started, "Dear Mr. Giunta..."
    Needless to say, I found this extremely irritating, especially since
    "his" wonderful credit rating was due to *my* paycheck and *me*
    paying the bills!  My response to these letters was to write the
    bank a nasty letter telling them I did not appreciate their sexism,
    and that I would prefer to take my business elsewhere where such
    treatment wouldn't be considered normal, which is exactly what I
    did.
    
    Cathy

	    My mother established a credit rating, got married, got
	divorced, had no credit rating, established another one, got
	married, got divorced, had no credit rating again, and has now
	established another one.  No wedding plans in the offing.
				* * *
	    When we applied for a marriage license, the women behind the
	desk tried to talk Cheryl out of keeping her last name.  She
	went on, at length, telling us how hard it would be to change
	her last name to mine "when" she decided to do it.  (She pre-
	dicts that Cheryl will decide to do it about two years after
	we get married, and it will be terribly confusing then.)
				* * *
	    Mail addressed to Mrs. Dyer or Mr. Millett usually ends up
	in the recycling box.  It's a good tip-off.
				* * *
	    The following editorial appeared in the _Lowell_Scum_ - er,
	_Sun_ - recently:

      Sometimes the lady libbers work so hard in their proclamations of
    freedom from a stereotyped role, as they love to say, that they
    seem downright paranoid.
      So it was the other day when George Kariotis fumbled a little
    as he cut a symbolic birthday cake on the State House steps and
    commented:  "This is ladies' work.  I'm clumsy with these things."
      The wrath of the ladies soon fell upon the unfortunate GOP aspir-
    ant for governor.
      One would have thought that all womanhood had been maligned simply
    because a man suggested that a woman might be more handy cutting a
    cake than he.
      Several women legislators reacted with scorn and anger at the
    remark.  They were Democrats, of course, so they were politicking as
    well as defending the good name of all womenhood.
      They made their point.  They're stuck with it though.  Like it or
    not, women really are better in the kitchen than men, and women's
    lib is not likely to do anything about it.

	Cheryl wrote them a letter-to-the-editor inviting them to come
	attempt to eat a meal cooked by her (while she eats a meal that
	I cooked).
				* * *
	    Plenty of sexism in the women's movement, but I won't go
	into that . . .

			<_Jym_>

	Sexism issues and stupid letter addressing aside, I though it
	was now the law that the credit rating on a card applies equally
	to both spouses (I'm not sure of the details).  Does anyone know?
	The law may be different from practice and we can grouse and
	complain about the practice, but the law is what is important
	in determining who really has the credit rating.

						Eileen

    Hmmm..I was just looking at a VISA application the other day. The
    application allowed the applicant to identify whether or not the
    credit should be established on the individual's income only. This
    implies to me that credit is as easily accessible to men or women
    individually based on personal income. This application was also
    from a relatively conservative Boston Bank..and they can usually
    be the worst.
    
    A,

    
    Re -1, I think that is a relatively recent option.  In any event
    what can happen is this.  During what turned out to be the last
    year of my marriage (but I didn't know it at the time) I applied
    for a furniture loan in *just* my name.  The loan was refused because
    I didn't make enough money.  The person who handled the application
    asked me if I was married, and if so, how much money my husband
    made.  It turned out that if he agreed to co-sign the loan then
    I could get the furniture.  I had my heart set on the furniture
    so we went ahead and got the loan in both names.  It seems that
    credit is as easily accessible to women as men, based on income,
    but a lot of women don't earn enough money to qualify.  If these
    women are married to men who do earn enough money to get the loan,
    the loan seems to go in the man's name.  The woman helps to pay
    the bills, but then if they get divorced the credit seems to go
    to the man.
    
    Lorna

re .6 (Lorna)

> We will both be in line to buy something like cookies,
> fudge, chocolates, or ice cream or whatever.

I'll wait in line with you anytime! :-)

A female friend of mine has related to me many incidents of sexism.  I'd like
to share some of them with you.

She owns her own house.  Once, when she was thinking about remodeling her
kitchen, she made an appointment on the phone to have someone come talk to
her.  At one point during this conversation, the salesman asked if her
husband was going to be home.  Personally, I would have been brutally honest
with the caller and given him an error message (?undefined object "husband" or
something to that effect), but she just said "no".  The salesman was surprised
by this and said words to the effect of "No?  Maybe we should reschedule this
so that he can be there".  Needless to say, the conversation went downhill
from there.  I wondered whether the scenario would have been reversed if it was
a man calling for an appointment, but I never got around to this experiment.

Another incident she related to me was when she was asked by another salesman
(again on the phone) how many people lived in her household.  She answered
"three", as she has two children.  Later, the salesman started referring to this
mythical husband of hers.  She was, er, slightly annoyed :-)  Actually, I don't
know whether I would consider this sexism or not, but more a problem with
assumptions.  Or, perhaps the assumptions are there because of the sexism?

It also took my friend a long time to convince the school system that she was
not a Mr. and Mrs.

Jill

I finally remembered another incident I wanted to relate; for a change, this
one happened to me! :-)  This one gets dumped into the "men pay the check at
restaurants" bucket.

I was at lunch last week with two male friends from work.  When we were ready
to leave, I caught the waiter's attention from across the room, and asked
for him to bring our check.  He brought it over, started to hand it to me,
realized what he was doing, and gave it to one of the men!

Jill

RE: 77.18 
>	    Plenty of sexism in the women's movement, but I won't go
>	into that . . .

Please do Jym.  If I happen to be doing something sexist, I'd like to
know so I can stop (of course *I* can't be doing it :-) ).

...Karen

    
    to .21
    
    A bank or financial institution is in business to make money
    for themselves at minimal risk. Whether or not you are male or female
    a specific income is going to yield a specific amount of extended
    credit taking into account outstanding debt. The same would be true
    for any man, who when making the lower income while married, applied
    for credit individually upon being divorced.
    
    Ann

    
    Re -1, and there are *so* many men in that situation!  I know dozens
    of men myself who just can't seem to get by without their ex-wife's
    big paycheck.
    

re: restaurants

Not only do men get the checks, but it's frequently expected that we'll do
the ordering, as well.  Whenever I'm in a restaurant with a woman, I let her
order first, because I've been in the situation where I'd give my order
first, and the waitperson waited for me to order for my companion, as well.

Maybe I'll stop doing that, and see if it still happens.  It'll be a good
excuse to be just a little rude.
					-- hal


by the way: reverse sexism isn't really "sexism".  I believe that it's
defined to be discrimination against women.

	    [RE .27]:  Actually, most dictionaries define sexism as
	prejudice on basis of sex.  Some add "especially with regard
	to women" while others provide a secondary definition that
	specifically refers to women.
	    Coming from an egalitarian viewpoint, I use the primary
	definition.  I don't believe in terms like "reverse sexism"
	and "reverse racism."  Sexism is sexism and racism is racism.
			<_Jym_>

    I go to lunch and dinner with women friends quite a bit.  Waiters
    and waitresses quite naturally and comfortably manage to place the
    check face down between us at the end of the table!  It is reachable
    by either of us, and reflects no assumptions.
    
    Why can't this be standard practice for all restaurant checks? 
    Wouldn't waitresses and waiters be more comfortable with a routine
    non-offensive practice, as well?  
    
    Holly

    RE .19, et al.
    
    My understanding about credit is that the creditor is required to
    keep the credit history records in both names, but only if specifically
    required to do so.  Many creditors will do so automatically, but
    to be safe, write a letter to each creditor to request that they
    do so.  You should also check to see which credit bureau(s) they
    report, and send the credit bureaus the same letter.  
    
    As an aside:  You should periodically check your credit bureau record
    anyhow to make sure that they aren't making any mistakes -- their
    record of blunders is staggering.
    
    Another aside:  The law allows you to check with the Social Security
    Administration to verify that their records are accurate, but they
    are not required to make any corrections after 5 years.  Check your
    accunt every few years to make sure that they are tracking you
    correctly.  Several people I know could not retire when they wanted
    to, or got smaller payments than they should have, due to faulty
    record-keeping by the SSA.
    

    One of the features I used to look forward to in Ms. Magazine was
    the "No Comment", usually in the back somewhere, in which readers
    sent in clippings of offensively sexist advertising.  They seem
    to have dropped it, though I can't believe there aren't still examples
    out there.
    
    I can't remember the title, but there's a good film, produced, I
    think, by the Canadian Film Board, which illustrates sexism in the
    media.  Having always been interested in how words and pictures
    are used to manipulate us all, both in advertising and propaganda,
    I would be interested in any examples that participants of this
    conference would like to make us all aware of.
    
    			Dennis Ahern, mercenary in the war on literacy
                                                                      

    A not so funny thing happened to me.....
    
    My husband and I live in Massachusetts, share the same last name,
    and file for IRS jointly.  However, I am required to pay Massachusetts
    state taxes, he is not.  When I got my (substantial) Massachusetts
    tax refund it was addressed to both of us, yet it was MY money!
    
    I have had an American Express card for several years.  I later
    decided to add my husband to it as an authorized signer.  When I
    had some dealings with AMEX challenging an incorrect charge, all
    correspondence was addressed to my husband, although I was the one
    generating all correspondence: phone calls, letters, etc.  I have
    since cancelled his signature authority on my credit card......
                                  

        Off the subject, but... I'm surprized that anyone can live
        in Massachusetts and not have to pay Mass taxes.  I fully
        expect Mass to be after *me* for taxes next year just because
        I used the word "Massachusetts" in this note!
        
        	/dave  (:-), sorta)

	    Today's _Boston_Globe_ included an amazingly Neanderthal
	commentary by David B. Wilson on the op-ed page.  Wilson was
	giving a glowing review of a new book by George Gilder that
	promotes the old patriarchal family:
	    "The obvious short-term winners in this revolution are
	attractive, gifted, sexually liberated, ambitious young upper-
	class women and the rich, powerful, sexually acquisitive married
	men with whom they connect."  (Connect?)
	    "All men grow old, andmost grow less interested; and most
	women find themselves childless in their 30s and no longer att-
	ractive enough to compete with their younger sisters for the
	J.R. Ewings and Warren Beattys in a world where men of such
	power and pelf [?] are in short supply."
	    Shall we swamp the _Globe_ with angry letters?
			<_Jym_>

        Pelf : (n) Wealth or riches  (American Heritage Dictionary)
        
        now *that's* a word I've never heard used before...
        
        As for the article... unfortunately, that sort of attitude
        seems to be "in" these days, what with all the "pro-family"
        Reagan and Falwell cronies.  They're trying hard to pretend
        that all the social improvements over the last few decades
        never happened.  I wonder if they're really even fooling
        themselves, much less anyone else?
        
        	/dave

Re IRS problems:

My wife and I have filed for 7 years now as "Mabel Liang and Bob Leigh",
with no problems.  We put the SS#'s down in that same order as well.
We've never gotten any flak about the numbers not corresponding to the names.

New story:

All of you support this one, since it's part of OUR medical insurance.
I'd really welcome suggestions about how to deal with it.

When the PCS prescription scheme was being set up, we got sent a form asking
for our names (first and last), addresses, etc.  The plastic card that came out
said on it, "Leigh, 1) Bob, 2) Mabel".  I called the John Hancock DTN to get it
changed, and talked to a woman who said, yes, that card is correct. I
complained that our normal pharmacy had already been confused by having Mabel
Liang come to them with this card.  The woman stated that both last names
were in the computer, so I didn't have a problem.  I hung up on her.

Then the HCS scheme (prescriptions in 3-month quantities by mail order)
came along.  Same problem.  The forms and the labels on the containers are
printed "Mabel Leigh" although the doctor's prescription itself is for
"Mabel Liang".  Mabel now sends them a form letter with every new order
asking them to label the prescription with her real name.  Most of the time
they do, sometimes they don't.

Maybe the problem here is that they assume that both of us have the
*DEC employee's* last name.  It's really ridiculous in our case, since Mabel's
an asthmatic and takes regular medications.  I've had exactly one medication
prescribed for me in the last 20 months.

I've steamed to myself off and on for 20 months about this one.
Any suggestions about how to attack it?

Bob

    Well, I'd call them back and insist that they change the cards, and if
    the person on the phone does not have the cabability or authority to
    do it, ask to speak to their manager.  Explain that you think that
    their policy is descriminating against women (which is a subtle threat).
    Of course if you've already done this, I'm not sure of the next step.

    ...Karen

  Just now I was told that a software consultant of the senior variety
    was not an acceptable person to use as sales support because the
    customer (a steel mill) might use unacceptable language and the 
    salesman didn't think this lady consultant could cope with it. 
    My vigin ears!
    
    Any suggestions for coping with this kind of person (short of totally
    losing the somewhat fragile control I currently have over my temper)

SalesMAN?  Around here, the average sales rep is about as likely to be
female as male.

(And both varieties contain all extremes of ability to handle -- and
produce -- profanity.)

Bob

People who know me know that I rarely swear unless I'm hurt (as in hitting
my thumb with a hammer) or angry. This sounds like a case that might lead me
to use some pretty strong language. I'm not saying lose control over your
temper, but I think sometimes you have to let people know in no uncertain
terms where they stand with you.  

Language is a tool, and some people know how to use it, and some people
don't. People who swear all the time have no respect for or knowledge of the
use of the tool. For them "every tool is a hammer, except a screwdriver
which is a chisel." I beleive that most of the work language does in
business is best done with precision tools. But sometimes, if at first you
don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.

Don.

You say this was concerning steel mills.  Obviously the person who made the
remark got a little too close to one of their smelters and got the ol' brain
fried.   You might suggest he (?) take a walk through central engineering
or most any section of MK1.    The only people who swear more than Digits,
seem to be construction workers, and their range is limited to the
rather amazing skill of using our favorite euphemism for sex as all seven
parts of speech in a single sentence. 

Did the "delicate" specialist in question know about this black listing? 
What was (would be) her response?

-Byron

    Sorry about the *salesman*.  Sometimes this feminist stuff gets
    the better of me.  A side note though, the only female sales reps
    here (both of them) are devoted to PSS.
    
    My favorite salesrep and I visited the customer last week. For the
    customer's sake he mentioned that they would have to put up with
    this lady because everybody else was busy.  Tact and diplomacy were
    obviously not the things this person majored in at college.  And
    nobody had even cursed yet!  The customer's reaction was a little
    strange - they offered to take him (and his BMW) on a tour of the
    furnace facilities. 
    
    I think I've gotten over the anger.  This situation is getting to
    humorous to stay mad.  I can hardly wait until they (the customer)
    find out that he eats quiche, too.  I'm also wondering if/when the
    rep will figure out that the customer is only playing with his mind.
    
    
    
    
    
    
   

    I needed a coil wire for my Volkswagen.  I knew exactly what size
    it should be and what length, etc..., and since cars won't run without
    coil wires, I walked a mile to a garage, (that does this sort of
    thing), and asked for one.  He handed me a coil wire that obviously
    would not fit.  
    
    When I protested, (nicely of course, we must ALWAYS be "nice"!), he
    actually patted me on the head and told me he knew what he was doing!
    I was young, (pre-college days - the days that changed my life!),
    and although I KNEW I was right, I could not convince him.  He would
    not make a coil wire to my specs!
    
    When I walked home, and walked back with the earth shattering news
    that the coil wire was indeed the wrong size, he chuckled, (a few
    other guys in the garage thought it was "cute" too), and made me
    a coil wire that fit.
    
    I also remember when I got divorced, (granted this was 12 years
    ago), I went to the store where I had a credit card, (in my name),
    and tried to change my last name on the card.  The woman had a problem
    with this and called over the manager who asked for an explanation
    of the name change.  When I told him, he snatched the card from
    my hand, (he really DID snatch it like this divorced female might
    actually run off with this card and, heaven forbid, try to USE it!),
    and told me outright "You can't have this card!".
    
    These are two of the more blatant examples, but sexism is so worked
    into our culture that it has become "normal everyday life" and women
    who object to sexism are seen as difficult to deal with because
    they seem to object to "normal everyday life".  The problem isn't
    with the women, it's with the fact that we, all of us, accept so
    much sexism as normal that it becomes hard to distinguish it as
    deviant behavior.
    
    Sandy

That reminds me of my experiences with the ADAP (car parts store) on
 Daniel Webster Highway in South Nashua.  Before we bought the Subaru,
  I was a frequent customer there.

One of the parts clerks there is a woman.  The parts clerk's job is,
 essentially, to look up a parts number in a catalog and go back into
  the warehouse and retrieve the part.  It's actually a little harder
   than that; one has to deal with customers who don't know what part
    they're talking about, don't know the model or year of their car,
     etc., and one has to know enough about car parts to interpolate.

Quite a few times I would go there and see some man standing in line
 behind one or more other customers, waiting for a male parts clerk to
  service them; obviously rejecting the female parts clerk.  From time
   to time, I (and she, of course) would hear comments about how she
    wouldn't know anything, etc., etc.  And so they wait, sometimes to
     get a young know-it-all teenager who's only been there a week,
      thinks he knows everything, and doesn't pay attention to detail.

The same situation occurs in the ADAP in Worcester, oddly enough!

ADAP also appears to have a policy (doubtlessly unwritten) that the
 cashiers be young women or teenage girls who are considered attractive
  (by prevailing sexist standards).

Incidentally, a lot of parts stores - at least, every one I've been ass-
 ociated with in Pittsburgh - have an annual tradition of printing up a
  little joke book/pamphlet for "select" customers.  These books feature
   jokes and cartoons about airhead nymphomaniacs, shrewish wives, etc.,
    and have little photos of topless women.

"Select" customers are, of course, more-or-less regular male customers
 who the store's management is familiar with.  It's considered a kind of
  an honor to be "allowed" to have one of these books.  (I never had the
   "honor" - never hewed to the party line, as it were - but my father's
    side of the family is full of gearheads, and that's how I know about
     these books.)
      <_Jym_>

    Woman the Madonna - Mens' wives & mothers.
    Woman the Slut    - The rest of them.
                      
    This is the basis of all sexism, I think.  I'll bet those parts
    store "books" are full of proof.  The wife and/or mother an asexual
    being, (old, scorned, feared, despised), and the sluts are the women
    who belong to no man and therefore every man.  Sexy, coy, desirable,
    forbidden, ad nauseum.
    
    When Prince Andrew had his 'fling' with Koo Stark that was ok. 
    "Those" girls are for fun.  Could he have married her if he wanted?
    Absolutely not.  Those girls are NOT for marriage - girls like Fergie
    are.  
    
    The double standard I think is more destructive as the dual view
    of women in men's minds than the traditional interpretation which
    is one standard for men and one for women.
    
    In my interpretation, men through the ages have had a tendency
    divide all women into two catagories based on sex.  Desire applies 
    to one category, stability to the other.  And that's one of the 
    biggest reasons behind the wide cross-cultural acceptance of male 
    infidelity - somehow we all sense that they marry for stability and 
    therefore have to cheat for lust.   A poll showed, (and I know you're 
    all going to want to know which poll but it was a few years ago and 
    I'm sorry I can't remember.), that the overwhelming majority of men in
    our culture do NOT marry the woman they most "want" and I mean want in 
    it's strongest and most complete sense.  Too bad for them, I say!
    
    And please keep in mind that I am speaking in general.  Obviously,
    the younger and better educated males in a progressive computer
    company are "on average" going to be much more liberal in their
    views, and particularly the regular readers of WOMANNOTES.  So please
    don't feel accused by this - you are not, believe me!  
    
    But until men see their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers as
    being sexual, and all other women as being human beings in addition
    to being sexual, this double standard will keep us spinning our
    wheels and chugging along in our traditional, oppressive way.
    
    Brief Example:
    
    Guy foaming over skin mag or commercial or billboard or ...
    is impatient with wife or SO for taking too long with makeup
    or spending too much on clothes - the "attractants" he admires in
    other women not being allowed in 'his' woman.  "She's mine therefore
    she should not attract."  "I'm bored by this non-attractive woman"
    "I am now attracted to that one"  until she now becomes his, and so
    on.                                             
    
    Amen, brother!

I always get madder when a woman does this number on me.

We are adding a room on to our house.  My carpenter brother drew
up some sketches that, while adequate for him and me and my husband,
did not satisfy the building inspector, since he had to read the
notes on the drawings.  So I drew up a vertical x-sect with circles
and arrows and a paragraph ... that was okayed in 2 seconds.  So,
the bldg inspector gives the permit application to his secretary,
(surely the most surly and humorless person I've met recently) to
type up.  She has seen me 3 times now, and I did the relevant
drawing; the permit application is in my and my husband's name.

She put my husband's name, only, on the building permit.

I didn't notice till I got home, and it's not worth risking the
wrath of the department I must get my occupancy permit from.
But it bugs me!

    I had someone from the phone company call me the other day.  The
    phone is in both my husbands and my names, but it comes to me (my
    name starts with an "M", his with an "S").  This guy asked for the
    man of the house (not by name, just, "The man of the house"). When
    I said he wasn't there, that I was his wife, could I help him; he
    had nerve enough to say, "This is ------------ from AT & T, and
    we wanted to know what long distance service your husband wanted,
    but I guess you can't answer that can you?".  I was so mad I yelled,
    "NO, I'M A F**KING A**HOLE", and hung up.  When the recall came
    in my husband was home and he layed into this guy, it just happened
    to be the same one (he was asked if he had called and he said that
    he was and that Steven should really teach me how to use the phone
    properly, or don't let me answer it at all).  That did it for Steven
    too, he asked the guys name, and they guy refused to give it to
    him.  What do you do in a case like this???? These people are hired
    to call and get a peolpe to change their phone service, they are
    not regular workers of the phone company. 

    Sorry about the misspellings and transposed letters, I just get
    so mad, and my fingers can't keep up with my thoughts.
    
    M-L

	Re: 77.48

	My own response to anyone soliciting by phone comes from an Ann
	Landers column:  "I'm sorry but I don't accept telephone
	solicitation.  If you would like my attention, write down whatever
	it is you want and *mail* it to me." I'm pretty adamant about people
	invading my privacy simply because my telephone number came up on
	some computer.

	I showed your tale to my SO, who told a friend, and her response was 
	this. The company that contracts out this solicitation job from AT&T
	keeps logs so they know who called whom when 
		(1) to judge efficiency of workers and 
		(2) so they know who has already been solicited.
	If you have the date/time he finally got in touch with "the man of
	the house", you can probably complain to AT&T with this information.
	If they *really* wanted to find out who it was, they could, but this
	avenue is probably not open to individuals.

	Sam

    I got a note in my mail the other day, and took the persons
    suggestion.  I wrote a letter and sent it to the address in the
    front of the phone book: the section called "Consumer Rights and
    Responsibilities".  I put in the letter that if that was not the
    place to send it, please forward it to the appropriate people because
    there was no need for GOOD phone customers to have to put up with
    this treatment.
    
    Thanks for the replies, and thanks Hal for the suggestion.
    
    M-L
    
    
    P.S.  Even if nothing ever comes of this, I feel better getting
    it off my chest.

    
    One day last week I was having lunch in a restaurant in Maynard
    and I overheard 3 people discussing what qualities they wanted to
    look for in the new secretary they were planning to hire for their
    department at DEC.  One woman said that she wanted a male secretary
    who was tall, blonde, handsome, with broad shoulders.  The other
    woman said that she wouldn't mind a female secretary as long as
    she was old and homely.  The third member of the group, a man, said
    that naturally he was planning to hire the best looking of the
    qualified women who applied.  I don't know if this conversation
    would be considered sexist, funny, ignorant or a combination of
    all three, but it certainly caught my attention.  I'll have to keep
    this conversation in mind and if I ever get rejected when applying
    for future secretarial jobs, I'll realize that it may have been
    for a pretty dumb reason.
    
    Lorna
    

    Building a house definitely gave rise to many sexist events.  For
    example, all the laborers and craftsmen definitely wanted to deal
    only with my husband and were quite annoyed when I returned their
    calls or made appointemnts to meet with them (except for the person
    who was doing the kitchen cabinets who assumed of course that I
    had the most interest in them.)
    
    Some other things...
    
    When we were looking for a lawyer, a friend recommended the lawyer
    he had used.  Paul (my husband) called the lawyer and subsequently
    received a letter addressed only to Mr. Paul Warren.  Well, that's
    cool; he just wasn't assuming that there was a Mrs.  So we called
    and made an appointment for the two of us to see him.
    
    When we went into his office, I asked the lawyer to please make
    a point of addressing all correspondence to both of us.  He didn't
    answer.  Maybe he didn't hear me.  I then asked him numerous other
    questions I had written down and he proceeded to respond to Paul.
    I repeated the request that all correspondence, etc., be addressed
    to both of us.  He ignored me and asked Paul a question.  Paul said
    "My wife was talking to you."  He looked at me and innocently asked
    "Yes?"  By now I'm seeing red.  I told him WE ARE BOTH BUYING THIS
    HOUSE; THEREFORE, SEND ALL CORRESPONDENCE TO TRACY *AND* PAUL WARREN."
    
    He took off his glasses slowly and looked at me, perplexed.  "Aren't
    you married to him...don't you live with him?"  I said "I DON"T
    read HIS mail!!!"  He then went on to wrap up the meeting and giving
    me what he seemed to feel was an endearing grin, asked me to not
    to be too hard on him if his secretary forgot to put my name on
    paperwork.  Needless to say, we told him we wouldn't be needing
    his services after all; his articulate response was "No sweat."
                                                          
    ---
    
    When we applied for the mortgage at WCiS (in Worcester), we applied
    with my name first, followed by Paul's.  No problem.  The only thing
    was when we went to close.  The woman representing the bank saw
    the paperwork for the mortgage and giggled (yes giggled) when she
    saw "they put your name first."  I asked innocently if there was
    something wrong with that.  "Well...er...no, it just isn't the way
    we do it usually."
    
    --
    
    This year, we refinanced our house with Peoples Bank also in Worcester.
    (I do NOT recommend them.)  We filled out our application at home
    and brought it to the bank.  The woman we dealt with told us there
    was a new form and she would have to transcribe it.  When she gave
    us the new form filled out to sign, she had switched everything
    to put his name and credit references first.  When I asked her why,
    she said "Oh did you want your name first?"  I said that obviously
    we had filled out the form in the way we wanted it filled out. 
    She drew lots of arrows and said the mortgage would read with my
    name first.  Through all our other aggravations with this bank,
    my name kept appearing second on all paperwork.  I kept telling
    each person that we wanted my name first.  It kept getting fixed
    temporarily, but each time I would get a shake of the head and 
    be told "It REALLY doesn't matter...", to which I would respond,
    "If it doesn't matter, why do YOU keep switching it?"  Anyway, the
    mortgage does read with my name first.
    
    --
    
    Re .30
    
    When we applied for the first mortgage, we wrote to the credit bureau
    for our credit reports ahead of time.  We figured if there were
    any problems or errors, we could straighten them out ahead of time
    to avoid delays.  Good thing we did.
    
    My report was outdated (it showed I worked for DG, which was two
    companies ago, had an old address, my former last name, etc.), but it 
    only had one other error.  Paul's went on for pages.  It showed two
    Master Cards, two Sears cards, two Visas, etc.  One of each was
    his; the other we didn't know (it wasn't mine; we checked).  He
    called his ex-wife and sure enough they were hers.  Some were in
    her maiden name still and some in her current last name (her new
    husband's), none in Warren.  But there they all were with Paul listed
    as responsible for them.  They also listed Paul's address as one
    that his ex lived in after they were divorced.  
    
    He wrote a letter to the credit bureau indicating that he never
    lived at X address, that none of the following credit cards were his 
    and that they should not be on his credit report.  He didn't mention
    that the address or cards were his ex-wife's.  We figured that the
    credit bureau would assume, if they knew that, that he *MUST* have
    been/still be responsible for them.  (These were her own cards;
    never joint.)
    
    The kicker is that she decided to check her own credit report and
    none of these cards--most of which Paul says she had before they
    were married--are not on her credit report at all.
    
    --
    
    Re. .48
    
    I also got annoying call from AT&T that was similar.  Even though
    the phone is listed in both of our names, they wanted to know if
    I was Mrs. Paul Warren.  I said no.  He said "Can I talk to the
    lady of the house?"  
                                               

I was riding from Frankfurt to Stuttgart with Erna Landrock last week.

Her car needed gas, so she pulled into a gas station.  I got out of the
passenger's side of the car and heard the attendant ask "How much gas do
you want?"  Assuming he was talking to Erna, I walked on, but he repeated
the question, more loudly, with "Hey" in front of it.

I suppose that since I was the man, I must have been in charge.

/john_who_doesn't_have_time_to_read_another_conference_regularly

    When I bought my house, my father Mique (pronounced "Mike") cosignedthe
    mortgage and his name is on the dead as well. We're listed as Mique
    and Tracy Talcott, so now the tax bills area addressed to Mr. &
    Mrs. Mique Talcott. I also get various interesting artifacts in
    the mail, usually addressed to Mrs. Tracy Talcott.
    
    But then again, I was at Bradlee's last week with my girlfriend.
    We were at the cashier with her in front. I pulled out my wallet,
    took out the old Visa card and handed it to the cashier. When it
    came time to sign on the dotted line, the cashier handed the paperwork
    to my girlfriend. We all grinned at each other, I ended up signing,
    and Debby was handed my card. I guess the cashier thought I was
    holding her card for some reason. I dunno. Anyway, if I ever have
    a son he's going to be named Max or Steve or Robert...
    
    						MR. Tracy

    My wife, Joy, does all the carpenter and repair work around the
    house. When we go to hardware stores and the like, she is always
    the active one, asking the questions and doing the buying. In most
    cases I have no idea (and no interest in) what she needs, etc.
    
    The places we frequent often are used to this, and know enough to
    ignore me and talk to her. But, as you can imagine, if it is a strange
    clerk or place she goes to infrequently, it is sometimes a battle
    to get the clerk to pay attention to her. I remember one time
    practically yelling at a particularly obtuse clerk, "DAMMIT talk to 
    her! I don't know a thing about it!"
    
    -bs
                      

    The Worcester Telegram and Gazette obit section still lists survivors
    of a deceased person as (for example):
    
    A son, John A. Smith of Worcester; a son, James B. Smith of Westboro;
    and a daughter, Ann, wife of William X. Jones of Shrewsbury. 
    
    Grrr.

Minor non-sexist note:
My wife and I recently (last Friday) closed on the refinancing of our house.
We're both named on the mortgage, and in all the paperwork. The para-legal
who handled our closing asked (at the beginning of the interview) who was 
the "borrower" and who the "Co-borrower"; he was only concerned in that we
should fill in ALL the paperwork under those titles.

		Nigel

    A while ago, I was interviewing for jobs as a tech. writer, and
    visited another company who does many military contracts.  I was
    shown some of their manuals currently in use by the military.  All
    of the equipment was given female nicknames.  Each drawing of the
    equipment also included a female, who was drawn as a stereotypical
    sexpot in military uniform.  When being instructed how to use or
    maintain the equipment, the user was told, for example, "to push
    button X on Mary."  
    
    After all this, I violently complained to the person who arranged
    the interview.  Everyone who visited this company, including men,
    lodged a complaint.  Obviously, we couldn't change things, and I
    did not, and will not *ever*, go to work for this company. 
    
    I believe that I asked if anyone had ever complained about the
    documentation, and was told that there were no complaints.  Even
    a woman who worked for this company as a writer did not complain.
    When asked if women in the military had complained, I was also
    told there were no complaints.  Obviously, the image of the audience
    for these books is stereotyped, and the books only serve to perpetuate
    various stereotypes.
    
    <<lst

     From time to time, I hear the expression "good old boy network"; I
     have even seen the phrase in this conference. 
     
     It is demeaning to call a man a boy -- it implies immaturity,
     subservience, and incapability.  A "boy" can't be expected to
     undertake the same professional tasks as a man, nor can a "boy" be
     expected to be treated as an equal. 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    	I hate to digress, but the phrase "Good Old Boy" is not considered
    demeaning, especially in the South.  I went to college in Nashville
    TN and the "good old boy network" is alive and well.
    
    	On the other hand, there are times when the word "boy" is
    definitely a no-no, *especially* in the South.
    
    --Doug_who_grew_up_in_New_England_and_found_that_Dixie_was_*very*_different

    I'm afraid that two phrases are being mixed together here.
    
    First is "old boy network", which I suspect derives from the
    English public school tradition:  one automatically extends 
    certain considerations to the "old boys" that one attended  
    school with.
    
    The second is "good old boy", a US southern idiom whose precise
    meaning I'm not familiar with, but which carries "redneck" 
    connotations for me.
    
    These two phrases are completely unrelated -- there is no such
    thing as a "good old boy network".
    
    We now return you to the regularly scheduled discussion on sexism...
    
    	-Neil

    re: .62
    
>        These two phrases are completely unrelated -- there is no such
>    thing as a "good old boy network".
    
    	Funny... tell that to the people I went to college with in
    Nashville- most of them had too much money to be true rednecks,
    but they sure said "good old boy network."

    RE: .63  On the wealth of rednecks
    
>- most of them had too much money to be true rednecks
    
    

>    These two phrases are completely unrelated -- there is no such
>    thing as a "good old boy network".

I have to agree with .63: having gone to a southern prep school, I have seen
the good ole boy network first hand. By some reckonings I guess I'm even
part of it. It's similar in principle and practice to the Eastern
Establishment old boy network that residents of New England might be more
familiar with, but there isn't necessarily any overlap in the membership.

Historical note: the reason why this is called the "old boy" network is
derived from a tradition passed down from English public schools:
stratification of the ranks into "old boys" and "new boys." "New boys" are
usually incoming third-formers, or what Americans call freshmen, but one can
be a new boy in any year. By definitions a new boy has been at (his present)
school for less than one full term.

New boys have to prove themselves by (among other things) performing
personal services for old boys (sometimes only sixth-formers, which
Americans call seniors.) Things like running to the store, doing laundry,
making beds etc. Chores that might, in other circumstances, be performed by
servants or a wife. The British call this "fagging." I'm not sure how this
term is related to the popular American derogatory epithet for homosexual
men. The British also call cigarettes "fags." I'm sure they make some jolly
good puns over this.

So what does this all have to do with sexism? Here we have a multi-national
subculture, with its own institutions, rituals and rites of passage,
dedicated to maintaining the status quo, the way it has been for centuries.
If the status quo happens to be a patriarchal male supremacy, well, they
didn't invent it, they're just carrying on the traditions of their fathers. 

The old boy institutions don't purposely promote sexism, racism, classism
etc. The values they INTEND to promote are things like honesty,
forthrightness, respect for knowledge, courage; qualities which are not the
exclusive domain of rich white men; which women, minorities and poor people
also value and strive to achieve for themselves. But somehow the exclusive
environment in which these values are passed on also transmits the value
that men are better than women etc.

    re: old boys and good old boys as they apply to networks
    
    Is it possible that the division between the old boy network and
    the good old boy network is the mason-dixon line. Here in Ohio we
    seem to have both.
    
    I do remember a local friend of my ex-husband's (an ex-hippy from
    a wealthy virginia family) trying to teach him to be a good-old
   -boy for his own good.  I never realized it was so complicated...
    First came the pick-em-up truck, then the american legion membership,
    then (and this was the last straw) the World Wrestling Federation
    Fan Magazines.  They swore they could tell the parts that were real.
    
    Somehow I think here in Ohio there is no connectivity between the
    old boy network of upperclass professionals and the good old boys.
    Maybe they need Eithernet.
    

    When I needed my wisdom teeth removed my dentist sent me to his
    brother for oral surgery.   I made an appointment with him, he
    checked out the teeth and said, yep, they have to come out.
    I made another appointment with him for the actual procedure.
    At that time he wanted a $100 deposit, so I gave his receptionist
    my check and filled out the insurance form.
    
    Dave brought me in on D-day because I wouldn't be able to drive
    home under my own power (fly maybe...).  Dave waited in the lobby
    while the tooth doctor did nasty painful things to my poor mouth.
    He wasn't particularly competent and didn't get the painkiller IV
    inserted correctly so I didn't have a good time, but that's another
    story.  On my way out the receptionist handed me a check for $100
    payable to --- David Bazemore!  Now I'd never heard of this character
    and it took me a minute to realize that the receptionist had put
    two and two together and come up with 5.  Dave, the guy in the 
    waiting room must be my husband, so the check should be made to
    him!  Never mind that I filled out the insurance forms with my
    badge number, etc and originally gave her a check with just my name
    on it.   
    
    Unfortunately, I didn't catch this until after we left the office
    (and having gotten some real good pain killers I didn't catch anything
    for awhile).  Luckily my bank cashed the check when it was signed
    with my usual illegible scrawl, so it wasn't a hassle to straighten
    out.
    
    The oral surgeon in question is Robert Levesque in Nashua, not to
    be confused with his younger, much better brother, Adrian Levesque,
    Jr.  
    
    			Barbara b.

    
    Have you ever been to a resteraunt and the waitress/waitor takes
    the mastercard/visa and hands it to the male to be signed.
    Assuming its a couple thats eating.   
    
    This happens to me alot, my girlfriend has been working for two
    years longer than I, and is a senior engineer, makes very good money
    and has a couple of gold cards.  Whenever we go out (since I dont
    have a mastercard yet) she uses hers (I do pay once in a while)
    and almost always the waiter/waitress will pick up the card, that
    is usually in front of her, fill it out and give it to me to sign.
    
    Boy does it make her mad (and embarrasses me!), well, she of course
    adjusts the tip ammount accordingly,  those that get it right usually
    recieve quite a nice tip!!!
    
    Paul

    			When my ex-husband and I first started
    		living together, he decided to buy a car and found
    		that he could not get the credit.  He asked me if
    		I would agree to co-sign (we were sort of un-officially
    		engaged at that point.)  I agreed.
    
    			The credit company refused to even give him
    		the loan with a CO-signer -- but they were more than
    		happy to give ME the loan alone (on the condition that
    		his name appeared nowhere on the loan *OR* the title!)
    
    			After he paid off the car (we were married by
    		then), we went to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles so that
    		I could sign the car over to him.  When they heard our
    		story, the DMV *insisted* on putting down on official
    		documents that the price of the car (to him) was $0.00
    		(they put "gift from his wife" down instead, even tho
    		he had made every single payment on the car!!)  Boy,
    		was he steamed!!!
    
    			In a way, it showed me a case of non-sexist
    		behavior -- but then, I started thinking, why is it
    		necessary to show ANYONE that sort of dis-respect
    		(female *OR* male???)  It seems wrong to me (and stupid)
    		no matter WHO is the target.
    
    							Suzanne...

    I work part time in Jordan Marsh. This week I had a woman (about
    mid fiftys) come in to by a dress for her sons wedding.  She was
    accompanied by her husband, not unusual. When she was ready to make
    the purchase, I asked her how she was going to pay for it. She stood
    there and gave her husband a blank stare, he reached in his pocket
    for the money.  I then asked if she would like a JM charge account
    and she said yes.  She filled out the application but left employment
    blank and she had no Id.  I said you can yse your drivers lic.,
    she said I don't drive.  I asked how do you get around, she replyed
    I beg people to take me places. Her husband then said " I'll take
    her where ever she has to go.  If she had a license, I would never
    know where she was." 
    I got a big knot in the pit of my stomach and decided to quickly
    finish the sale before I said something that would get me fired.
    

I'am a little reluctant about entering this here as it
(a) smacks of tale telling & (b) it has no direct connection
to me, but however...

My wife sister (25) has been married now for 5 years and the following
are NOT rumors or tales passed around the family but situations
I have seen many times. I must say at this point that they seem
to be very happily married and now have a 2 month old child but 
these are NORMAL situations

It is her 'job' to stay at home and cook all meals, tho if
its his day off he will completely take over this function 

The evening meal must be ready on the table when he returns from
work, if she is not at the door to greet him he will sulk for
the rest of the evening (not a nice sight he's 6ft odd and about 15 stone)

If she wants to buy a magazine or pack of cigarettes while he is out
she will ask him for the money for said item 
Q "How much is it ?"
A "99 pence"
gives her 99 pence


All the shopping (food and other) is done by him on his way home
from work and presented to her

She did take a part time job, just two afternoons a week, so she
could get some money together to take driving lessons (he refuses
to teach her to drive), this was canned after the first day,, 
the evening meal wasn't ready when he got home ***


----------------------


Like I said at the top they are very happily married , the new Child
may change a lot of the above . This is just their way of life,
takes all kinds to make a world


Peb

    The dentist story a couple of replies back reminds me of Blue
    Cross-Blue Shield when my daughter was born 13 yrs. ago.  At the
    time I was working at a company where I was covered by Blue Cross
    for maternity benefits.  But, my then-husband (useful term in this
    file) had only been working at his company for a short while and
    maternity benefits for a wife wouldn't have been covered.  So,
    naturally, I filled out the insurance forms stating *my* name and
    where *I* worked.  Well, time went by and one day after I been home
    from the hospital with the baby a couple of months, I got a nasty
    phone call from the hospital telling us that if we didn't pay our
    hospital bill of approx. $3,000. (C-section) soon, they would sue
    us, etc.  I was very upset, saying that I couldn't understand what
    the problem was since I had filled out the insurance forms and that
    I KNEW  I  was covered for maternity benefits.  The woman on the
    phone replied that the insurance forms they had sent to Blue Cross
    had come back "No such person insured" or whatever.  I said it was
    impossible.  She said call them yourself.
    
    I called Blue Cross.  They said they had never received any insurance
    forms from the hospital for a Lorna St.Hilaire.  After many phone
    calls back and forth (you guessed it) the hospital had sent insurance
    forms to Blue Cross under the name of ROBERT St.Hilaire apparently
    just assuming that it must be the husband who had the insurance.
    
    The amazing thing about this was that *I* had filled out insurance
    forms correctly and somebody at the hospital must have changed them
    and sent them in under his name!  When we realized what happened
    I told the woman on the phone that, "I doubt I'm the first woman
    in Massachusetts who's ever used her OWN insurance company to pay
    for a baby!"  She told me that I had no reason to be rude to her!
     They were just following the routine.
    
    Well, that was 13 yrs. ago.  I wonder if it ever happens today.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	RE:  .73 
    
    	Almost! 
    
    	At my children's pediatric ophthalmologists office whenever I
    	call or we have an appointment the office staff always asks
    	for "Father's name".  (I'm sure I'm not the only single parent
    	that takes her children there........) 
    
    	Myra

re 77.73
	I had a baby in October - (I'm single) I did the pre-addmission
	review (for John Hancock), the pre-addmission papers for the
	hospital, etc - All paper work said I was single...  

	After I had the baby I got a letter from John Hancock saying
	they needed my husbands insurance company, and policy # before
	they would pay up.

	I sent the letter back saying that you don't need a husband
	to have a baby....

RE: 77.75

	I had to fill out a questionaire when I was looking for a 
	baby doctor - again, I checked single and left the "husbands
	name" space blank...    
	When the nurse went over the paper she told me I checked the
	wrong box (single) and asked what Mr. Wheeler's first name was...

	
	I took the child birth education classes - the instructor
	passed around a slip to sign up for a free baby magazine -
	pre-typed in all the name places were
			MRS._____________________________
	The same instuctor also repeatedly called the labor coachs
	husbands - Instead of saying Your coach should be doing this
	She would say Your husband should be doing this..


	/robin

    
    You know, reading these notes reminds me that I haven't run into
    a good case of sexism for quite a while.  Funny how you just settle
    into non-sexist, respectful behavior when no one jerks you.
    

The following is an excerpt from a memo which has just recently been put up on
the doors to the bathrooms in Merrimack:

    ...

    SUBJECT: Corporate Directories Distribution

    The new Corporate Telephone Directories have arrived and may be picked up
    in the Switchboard area (MK1-1/H24) on THURSDAY (3/12/87) and FRIDAY
    (3/13/87) between the hours of 9:00 am - 11:00 am only.

    MK2 Telephone Directories may be picked up in the Mailroom

    ...

Fine, I would like to have a new Telephone Directory.  HOWEVER, these notices
were put on the doors to the WOMEN'S bathrooms only, and are NOT on the MEN'S
bathrooms.  This is how I interpret this -->  Telephone directories are used
very often by secretaries and almost always, secretaries are the ones who pick
up the telephone directories for all the people in their groups.  Secretaries
are WOMEN (of course), and all women go to the women's room, and therefore the
women secretaries will see the notice and pick up telephone directories.

Are there other interpretations of this I may be missing?

I am VERY disappointed to see this!!!  I ripped the notice off one door in
order to write an excerpt from it here and am very tempted to rip them all off
every door.

					Karen.

    Maybe the men have already ripped them off of the men's room doors
    for whatever reason.  Its easier to take the notice than to remember
    the times.
    
    This is pure conjecture since I have no way of knowing if it was
    intentional or not.  Ask the people who put up the notices.
    
    Spence

I think that directories are most often DISTRIBUTED by secretaries.
Obviously everybody USES them.  It is not sexist to observe that all the
secretaries happen to be women and use that information for an
"optimization" of a one-time event like posting these notices.  (At least I
have never seen a secretary here who was not a woman.)  Whether sexism has
anything to do with this fact that all secretaries are women is a different
issue, of course. 

There are other means of getting information to "all secretaries" which no 
doubt could have been used, thus avoiding any accusation of sexism.

(The same posting technique was used over here in MKO2 as well.  But the
notice also is posted on the main building doors.  That is where I first 
saw it.)

On the other hand: When I was working for another company I came across the
COBOL program that generated a file of people who might be regular
customers of airlines for business travel.  This file was used by the
travel department, or given to the airlines, or something.  Various
heuristics were used to come up with the subset of the employee master file
which should go on the list.  One of the tests was for the sex of the
employee:  women were excluded from the list. 

(Now this was at a very old-fashioned company, 12 years ago, but still...)
The reason using a test like that in the program is wrong is that the
program stays around and enforces its "prejudice" on future employees.  So
even if it was ONCE true that, for whatever reason, all people likely to
travel for the company were men, there is no reason to assume that this
would ALWAYS be so.  I have no idea whether that program still works that 
way.

- Paul
(Be gentle; my first reply here.  Glad I found this place.)

    In my group, engineers pick up their own telephone books. We'd be
    out in the cold at MK (well, I could tell the rest of the engineers
    about the notice :-)). Seems like someone is not aware that different
    groups act differently.
    
    Also, I CANNOT believe that we have no male secretaries; not even
    TAGs or temps. Can anyone substantiate that claim?
    	Mez

    Well, we don't happen to have a male secretary here (though I used
    to work at a place that had one male keypunch operator - this was
    12 years ago, OK - he was the only one who did a decent job, as
    it happened, too!), and yesterday our female secreatry did distribute
    new phone books.  However, this morning my male boss distributed
    the paychecks.  Everyone helps out in this place!

    I haven't used the phone book for a year now.  Does anyone?
    Electronic mail is a more sure thing, so I can't get upset
    over notices for phone books one way or another.  Does anyone
    *really* need them any more?

    	-Ellen

    At one point my father (a muckey-muck in Field Service) had a male
    secretary.
    
    			Barbara b.

I've had three male secretaries during my time at Dec.  One of them
really grooved on the job -- he said that the petty cash line was
the best place to pick up women he'd ever found.

Even if all Dec secretaries were women, the notice should have been
posted more widely.  I would suspect that the error was one of
insensitivity, rather than of evil intent.

Martin.

    Last night, on my answering machine, was a message from H & R Block
    to the effect, "Spence's return is ready to be picked up".  Its
    a joint return and my wife wondered if they had one for her, too.
    Of course, I told her that if its in my name, then I get to spend
    the refund money.  8-)  She didn't buy that one.
    
    Now, dropping back a few years, to 1978, my wife and I were both
    enlisted in the A.F. in Germany.  She was a TSGT, stationed at Ramstein
    Air Base, a major base, and I was a SSGT (1 step lower than a TSGT),
    stationed at Sembach Air Station, a minor base.  Since we did most
    of our business on Ramstein, we decided to join the NCO club on
    Ramstein.  We filled out the application with her as the member
    and me as the dependant.  When we turned it in, the man behind the
    counter said that we couldn't do that.  I asked why and he said
    that I was stationed at Sembach and that I would have to join Sembach's
    NCO club.  I explained that Kris was stationed at Ramstein and that
    she out-ranked me.  That didn't matter, I was the man and I had
    to be the member.  The ensuing argument, which involved the night
    manager of the club, flared into a screaming match between myself
    and the 2 men on duty, drawing a crowd (much to my pleasure) as
    I accused them of being sexist and going against all of the policies
    of the A.F. on sexism.  I wanted the whole club to hear the argument.
    That night, we had to go elsewhere to eat, and the next day, we
    made an appointment to see the day manager, who was the ultimate
    manager for the club.  I was ready to stand on his desk until he
    decided that I was right and my wife could be the member.  When
    we got there, our club cards were sitting on his desk waiting for
    us to pick them up.  Her name was listed as the member and I was
    the dependant.  He admitted that the night manager had been
    wrong.  I wanted the night manager's head, but settled for the
    membership.     
    
    I often had people ask me how I could stand to have my wife out-rank
    me.  My response was that the money all spends the same and if she
    made more than I did, then we would have that much more to spend.
    I would be tickled pink to have her make more than I do.
    
    In my wife's Squadron, on 2 occasions she was ordered by the boss
    to make the coffee.  When asked why, she was told that she was a
    woman and that's woman's work.  She told them both to go to hell
    because she doesn't drink coffee.  She once told a SMSGT (big wig)
    to go to hell over a similar situation.  She was transferred to
    a new unit because she was "detrimental to the SMSGTs ego".  No
    kidding, it really happened.  No smiley face here.
    
    She was a supervisor, a computer operator, and out performed every
    man in the squadron.  I'm soooo proud of her.  She is now an
    electronics technician.  She started 12 years after I did and she's
    about to pass me.  I find myself asking *her* opinion on electronics
    problems.  I love it.  No jealosy here.
    
    Spence  

re: original phonebook note

It may have been that a woman posted the notices about phonebooks being
available, and was uncomfortable getting close enough to the men's room to
post the notice.


re: "the error was one of insensitivity, rather than of evil intent."

Whichever it was, a memo to the mailroom people (or whoever is ultimately in
charge) might be in line.  If it's evil intent, then someone needs to speak
up; if it was merely insensitivity, then a little consciousness-raising
would be helpful; if it's my embarrassment, then they should post them
somewhere else to avoid the appearance of unequal treatment.

					-- hal

    Re the memo about phone books on the ladies room door.  Unfortunately,
    it may just have been a practical way to let secretaries know the
    phone books were out.  Male secretaries are few and far between
    and most secretaries (most of whom are women) do pick up the new
    phone books and do use the ladies room.  I look forward to the day
    that the posters meant to inform secretaries *have* to be put on
    men's room doors, too, in order to make sure they reach all the
    secretaries.  
    
    Guess how I found out about the new phone books?  By reading these
    notes!  Guess they should have put a poster on the ladies room I
    use.
    
    Lorna
    

    Our notices about phone books are put on the entrance doors to the
    building and the books are distributed in the lobby.  Everyone picks
    up their own book as they come in.  It takes a burden off of the
    secretaries.  Well, the secretaries do send out tube-o-grams telling
    everyone to get their own phone book.
    
    Spence, Colorado Springs, CXO

    
    
    This morning I was on my into the MIll (Upper Thompson Lobby) and
    I dropped my badge in a puddle (Sounds like a Monday!). I stopped
    and turned around to pick it up and three "men" walked by ignoring
    me and a fourth gentleman stopped to reach into the puddle to retrieve
    it. After the three had gone I didn't think anyone would have helped
    but he was wonderful and I thanked him profusely for this. He also
    held both doors open for me on my way in.
    
    It is nice to know that some sexism (the good kind) is still alive
    in this place.....
    
    Sunshine
    
    P.S. Maybe they didn't like my suit!

  Huh?  Maybe they figured you were on your way to pick it up.  Or it
  could be they didn't notice.  Or...
  
  What I'm trying to say is there could be a multitude of reasons for
  three who "ignored" you.  I wouldn't call it particularly sexist in
  this instance, it could also be the same attitude that people have about
  stopping to help someone on the highway.  How many cars will pass you
  by before even one slows down to ask if you need assistance?
  
  Not that the fourth man wasn't kind and wonderful, but it's not fair
  to judge the other three so harshly by comparison...
  
  
  							Terza
  
  

    Sunshine's phrasing was just imperfect, Terza.  See the note "Is
    Sexism Alive...." for the heated discussion that originally appeared
    in this space.
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    Maybe they were afraid that you would tell them
    that you could have 'picked it up for yourself.'

    
    
    Good point I never thought of that. I was sent to private school
    when I was young and the most vivid memory of discipline was when
    a boy would get smacked one for not holding a door or not letting
    a girl use the water cooler first.
    
    Maybe *I'm* conditioned to expect these things......
    
    Debbi

    I saw a movie last night called "Bug" (please, no commentary on
    my choice of movies ;-).  It was about some ancient cockroaches
    that burn their victims.  The men, when attacked by the bugs, would
    simply reach out, grab it, and pull it off, singing their hands
    but saving their lives.  The women would rather *die* before they
    would use their hands to remove the bug, or they would have to have
    a man present to save them from the bug.
    
    The entire movie was equally as stupid.
    
    Spence

	That is indeed a stupid movie.
    
    	Everyone knows that NEITHER the man NOR the woman would touch
    them.  At least not if they were Gary and I.  Gary and I are quite
    pleased to have a cat that considers himself "the mighty roach hunter".
    
    	*Shudder*
    
    	(Tangent alert)
    	While I'm every bit as squeamish about touching bugs as the
    female stereotype,  I differ with other creatures.  I had a pet
    snake once.  Snakes are neat!  (Gary won't even stand in the section
    of the hall of the science building at our Alma Mater that has a
    small "snaketorioum"  (herpetorium??)).  I was a counselor at a
    camp for crippled children one summer.  They were running short
    of people with sign language skills to work with the deaf boys so
    I ended up working with the youngest deaf boys cabin.  I'll never
    forget the look on their faces when, hoping to see me running off
    screaming into the woods, they showed me a small lizard (a common
    American Anole, often mistakenly called a chameleon here in the
    south).  I thought they were going to die when instead I reached
    over and picked it up and started giving them the old "nature trail"
    lecture on what it was, and what it eats, etc...  :-)
    
                                                
    tlh
    

    	RE:  .96
    
    			When I lived in Santa Clara, I went into
    		a music store and there was a man with the most
    		beautiful pet snake wrapped around his neck (or
    		rather "draped" around his neck like a scarf.)
    
    			I asked him if I could hold the snake (I believe
    		it was a Boa.)  He said I could only hold the snake
    		if I was certain that I wouldn't get scared and drop
    		him (he didn't want the snake to get hurt.)
    
    			I wrapped the snake around my neck and petted
    		his little head.  He rubbed his face up against my
    		upper arm (as if he was petting me back) -- it was
    		almost like having a cat rub up against me!  It was
    		great!
    
    			My son and I have looked around for a nice
    		snake to adopt, but haven't really found one.  We saw
    		this nice Python in a store here in the Springs -- his
    		face was all cut up and we asked what had happened to
    		him.  They told us that he had been living with a "friend"
    		(a Boa) and they had been COILING UP together in rings
    		to sleep.  When the Boa got sold, the Python got so
    		lonely for his friend that he tried to climb out of
    		the wire mesh -- FACE FIRST!!
    
    			I had no idea that snakes could be that
    		affectionate and loyal.  We'd still like to get one,
    		but we're not sure how they would fit in with our cats.
    
    			Sorry to carry on with the tangent...  Is there
    		a Snake notesfile?  :-)  Just kidding...
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    	RE: last two replies
    
    	UGH!!!
    
    	Scott

    	RE:  .98
    
    			Can I assume that you wouldn't be
    		interested in Snake-sitting for us if we go on
    		vacation (if we have a snake by then)?
    
    						Suzanne... :-)
    

    re previous - I will Suzanne, if you can get the snake to me :-)
    I really like them also. They are very nice to touch :-)
    Bonnie
    (maybe we should start another note with this....)

    	May I reiterate?
    
    	UGH!!!
    
    	I'll sit with anything (except a snake), and anyone (except
    	my daughters).
           8-)
    
    	I have a funny story about snakes. Here I am in Vietnam, in
    	elephant grass about 8 or 9 feet high. Silence is of the
    	essence. All of a sudden, I feel something moving between my
    	ankles. What to do? Should I scream bloody murder and wake
    	every Viet Cong and NVA regular in the area. Or should I
    	quietly wet my pants? I decide to look down first. There,
    	sitting between my ankles, is the cutest little puppy I
    	ever saw.
    
    	Maybe it was so cute because it wasn't a snake. UGH!!!
    
    	Scott
    	

    I like snakes just fine if they don't startle me.  If they are safely
    behind glass, or a treasured, happy pet (like the one Suzanne met)
    they seem pretty nice.  But if I put my foot down in the woods,
    or put my hand on a rock ledge, I definitely do not like the sensation
    of fast-moving-snake underneath it.  So I wear bells on my boots
    if I am hiking in snake country (and that includes western mass!).
    I also look where I put my hands when climbing on rocks.
    
    My best friend in junior high had a baby boa constrictor.  Her family
    had a metal TV stand - the kind with the bar that runs across behind
    the TV.  The TV had some kind of thing inside that kept it warm
    all the time, and the snake just loved to get up on the TV stand
    and wrap itself around the metal bar and sunbathe.  I thought that
    was funny, but the fellow who came to fix the TV and grabbed the
    metal bar to pull it out definitely did not find it amusing...nor
    did her mom the time the snake escaped from its cage and was found
    roosting in the linen closet.
    
    He was fun to hold, and very friendly and alert.  Unfortunately,
    he got banned by the board of selectmen after being featured in
    the school newspaper!

    	RE: .100
    
    			Thanks, Bonnie!  (I agree with you --
    		snakes *are* neat to touch!)

    
    	RE: .101
    
    			Well, I can see why a person might not
    		be too anxious to be cuddled by a strange snake
    		in a swampy area.  I think *my* bladder would
    		make some independent decisions if *I* ran into
    		a snake in that situation, too.  :-)
    
    	
    	RE: .102
    
    			My favorite snakes are the happy (well-fed)
    		"pet" type, too!  I remember reading a story, though,
    		about a man who was bitten by his roommate's snake
    		after eating a chicken dinner.  He said that the snake
    		didn't mean him any harm -- it was just that the snake
    		could *smell* better than it could *see*...  :-)
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    My daughter has a five foot long rat snake that shares a room with
    a two foot long iguana. They each have there own aquarium within
    the room.  The snake eats rats and the iguana eats bananas and summer
    squash. My daughter has always had an assortment of pets and has
    kept many males from her domain. 
    Just a few of the pets she has had.
    rats- she used to breed them for a pet store in NH.
    hampsters
    ferrets
    skunks
    mice
    guinea pigs
    horses
    cows
    sheep
    dogs
    cats
    rabbits
    That is a list of just some of her pets.  Her brother had tropical
    fish and presently has a parekeet(sp) in his apartment. No sexism
    in my house.:-)

re Note 77.104 

    Ah ferrets... I don't know where you were living, but I hope it wasn't
    NH (ferrets are illegal in NH), or if Mass I hope you had the appropriate
    state permit. (Only legal in Mass for research purposes)
    
    /. Ian .\

    PS_1 I was going to say this was a rat-hole, but in this case it is a
    ferret hole
    
    PS_2 I used to keep/breed ferrets, delightful creatures: I think these
    laws are crazy. Fortunately 40+ states allow ferrets as pets.
    
    PS_3 Ever tried the delightful sport of "ferret_legging"?

    While on vacation this week, my wife and two of her college friends
    went out to lunch at a Very expensive restaurant in Baltimore. 
    As they left somebody in the lobby, assuming that they must be out
    for a special treat on their boss's account, said "Happy secretary's
    day."  They turned on their heels and informed him that they were
    nobody's secretaries, and that one was the president of a corporation, 
    another was a graphic designer, and another was a self-employed illustrator.
                                                                  
                                                                  

    I watched "Houston Knights" for the first time last week.  The
    lieutenant *and* the head of the FBI were both women.
    
    Spence

     Just before my sister (the doctor) started her sophomore year in high
     school, my family moved from a city (and a very good academic school)
     to a small town.  Most of the kids in her class had known each other
     since the nursery in the maternity ward.

     There was a boy in this class who had been Best This, Best That, and
     Best The Other Thing ever since kindergarten; it was a certainty that
     he would wind up with all the top academic awards in his senior year.

     Barbara wiped the floor with him (and went on to finish a bio-medical
     B.S. at an Ivy League school with a 4.0 average - she's a helluva a
     person to live up to).


     So, to be FAIR, that year they split all the awards up into Best Boy's
     and Best Girl's ....

     Susan

    
    It hadn't occurred to me to bother posting this cause it really
    sounds unbelievable.  But Digital is very enlightened in how it
    holds its meetings...I used to work for a start-up company (no names
    here) whose staff of decision-makers consisted entirely of men.
     They would decide together where to hold these meetings (certainly
    not at the office - what - and miss the business-writeoff luncheon?).
     They often decided to hold them at a local strip joint.  No kiddding.
    
    Boy if that didn't preclude women in the upper echelons - or at
    least give any interested an idea of what to expect IF they ever
    got there - I don't know what would.
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: 108
    
    Betcha as soon as a woman wins the Boston Marathon, they'll have
    men's and women's divisions.
    
    Any takers?
    
    Dawn

    Re: .110
    
    Sucker bet - the Boston Marathon already has Men's and Women's
    divisions, and has had for years.  (I would not be surprised to
    learn that women were ineligible to enter until the separate division
    was created.)
    					Steve

    Uh-uh. The "winner" of the Boston Marathon is still announced as
    the male who wins. The female is "winner of the women's race" or
    some such. Technically, there ARE 2 divisions, I guess - but I wouldn't
    be surprised if, when a woman wins, the winners will be "winner
    of the men's division" and "winner of the women's division". The
    same principle operates in talking about "tennis" and "women's tennis".
    
    A female will never be announced as the "winner" of the Boston
    Marathon.
    
    Dawn
    

    re: .111
    
    You're right about the Boston Marathon.  Women weren't allowed to
    enter for years, and the first few that tried to run as unofficial
    entrants were attacked by some of the officials.  A separate women's
    division was eventually created to allow them to participate.
    

    Re: .112
    
    Yes, you are right, of course.  So, the point is that when a woman
    wins the Women's Division with a time less than the winner of the
    Men's Division, then that will be something interesting.  (Is it
    plausible that such a thing would happen?  I know the times have
    been getting closer over the years.  Certainly the top female runners
    do better than nearly all of the male runners.)
    
    As for the Academy Awards, I always felt that the "Best Actress"
    award was considered less in stature to the "Best Actor" award by
    most people.
    					Steve

Since the top female gets as much prize money for winning Boston as the top
male, I wouldn't be too concerned.  What's more interesting is that, for
two years running, the top female masters (over 40) runner, Evy Palm, has
been fast enough to earn more money for her finishing place in the open
field than for being first masters. (Evy also won "the woman's division"
of the Stockholm marathon last year.)

The first female runner seems to run about 90% as fast as the top male
runner.  This seems to be pretty consistant across most distances. 
There is an interesting article on this in the current Boston Running
News.

Several conclusions can be drawn from these numbers.  None are necessarily
true.  For example, well-trained male runners generally have about 10%
body fat (or less), while well-trained female runners have about 20%
body fat.  This fat does not contribute to the ability to compete. 
Thus, one could reasonably claim that the top women are carrying a
10 pound biological handicap.

On the other hand, no sensible runner runs faster that necessary.
Currently, the top half-dozen female runners do not run head-to-head,
and haven't since the Olympic Marathon -- there is enough appearance
money floating around that the good runners are spread out across the
many "major" marathons -- and a good marathoner won't run more than
one or two serious races in a year.  Until enough women move up to
this distance, each race will have one -- or possibly two -- top-quality
women runners.  There are perhaps a half-dozen women capable of running
under 2:30 (within 10 minutes of the world's best time, but there are
several hundred men who can run under 2:20).

Martin.

    I believe that eventually, women will even-up with men in the
    long-distance races. I think the research still supports the

    "male-better-at-quick-muscular-strength-stuff"/"female-better-at-sustained-
    effort-stuff". Eventually, the times will even out. I think women
    will surpass men at endurance events.
    
    It is well to remember that women have not done "as well" as men
    in many sports/events in the past, because men in general made up
    (created) those events. Naturally, they created the ones they did
    well. 
    
    While I am glad that the female winner makes as much as the male
    (I think that is VERY important) - I think the rhetoric is as
    important. I believe that it is necessary for people to HEAR language
    that says "Griselda Ferdschmelder won the Boston Marathon this year.
    Zeke Smith won the men's race". The language we hear is how concepts
    enter the brain (or mind, or whatever). As we all know, it is possible
    to get "positive feedback" in a negative way.  It's the language
    we use. 
    
    It IS possible that many women pull even with men in (for example)
    running, and yet STILL the public in general would believe "men
    are better runners than women". Happens all the time.
    
    RE: Academy Awards - I think there is a slight tip toward the male
    award being more "important" - yet, I very seldom hear Meryl Streep
    (for example, being slighted in that way - or Katharine Hepburn,
    Betty Davis) Certainly, as far a gainful emplyment into one's golden
    years, the men have a definite edge <<<<rathole alert>>>> but that's
    another note...
    
    Dawn
    

re: .116:

If the marathon isn't an "endurance event", I'm not sure what would be. In
the marathon, the top runners (both male and female) are all running at
close to their aerobic limit.  I.e., their 10K split times are around 31
minutes for men and 34 minutes for women.  The claim that women will catch
up with men in distance events is based on the supposition that the women
will be able to metabolize their body fat.  Unfortunately, since runners
are allowed to eat during the race, even brutally long distance races (100
miles, or ironman triathalons) don't seem to give women any advantage. 

Martin.

	Going further off on the tangent...

	There is an event called the RAAM (Race Across AMerica), which	
	some consider an endurance event and some consider a contest in
	sleep deprivation. Contestants bicycle across the continent.	
	The last RAAM, if memory serves, was won by a man who finished less	
	than 1 day ahead of the 1st place woman. I believe some of the
	discussion from the Usenet group net.bicycles (now rec.bicycles)	
	argued that women's bodies are better suited for fighting the long-	
	term (~9-days) effects of sleep deprivation.

	I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a women win the RAAM within
	the next few years.
	
	Sam Levitin	
	SEMI::LEVITIN	DTN 225-4135	HLO2-1/G11

    RE: 118
    
    Sounds as tho' you got the impression from me that I didn't believe
    that marathoning is endurance-racing. Must've been my verbiage,
    cuz not only do I believe it IS endurance racing, as a physical
    ed. teacher and coach for 14 years, I KNOW it's endurance racing.
    
    That's why I think a woman will win someday. Uh...the race as a
    whole, not just the "women's division".
    
    And I will be (pleasantly) surprised if she's announced as the winner
    with "Mr. X won the men's race".
    
    Sorry for the misunderstanding (if any)
    
    Dawn
    

    re: 115
    
    That 10% speed difference could be from natural selection. Maybe
    the slower males never got the chance to reproduce. :*)

    One could deduce a corrolary here -- namely that the fastest females
    got away and never reproduced, either . . .
    
    --bonnie

Associated Press Thu  4-JUN-1987 06:53                        Athlete Beating

hsrX 4-JUN-8706

   SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - South Korea's top woman track star
says she doesn't blame her coach for beating her during a training
session because it will improve their relationship.
   Lim Chun-ae, who won three gold medals during the 1986 Seoul
Asian Games, was hospitalized with a fractured ear drum this week
after coach Kim Pum-il beat her during a weekend training session
for poor times.
   ``I don't blame coach Kim for what happened,'' Lim said. ``I
blame myself for not having done my best to improve my record. He
made me what I am.
   ``This accident will only contribute to a better chemistry
between us,'' the 18-year-old runner was quoted as saying in
Thursday editions of Korean newspapers.
   Korean athletic officials said such incidents are not unusual
and coaches sometimes beat or paddle athletes to encourage them to
train harder.
   Doctors said about a quarter of Miss Lim's right eardrum was
torn off during the beating. She is expected to be hospitalized for
several weeks.
   Kim was quoted by newspapers as saying he accepted all blame for
the incident, but that he was just trying to help his pupil to do
better.
   ``I made the mistake because of an excessive obsession with a
good record,'' he said. ``I deserve any blame and punishment for
having injured the nation's only track medal hopeful at next year's
Olympic games.''
   But the Korea Amateur Sports Association said it understood the
coach's actions and that he should not be punished.
   ``It is an open secret that coaches slap and whip their athletes
on the buttocks during training. It is an unfortunate incident, but
we don't see any necessity for punitive action against Kim,'' said
a KASA official, who requested anonymity.

       Re:124 One sick puppy!!! And the woman defends him!!!
    I was hoping by now this kind of mentality was going away.
    Just think about what would happen to her if she fell down
    during a big meet.... Or during the Games she didn't win....
    
                       REK
    This kind of crap burns......... He should be tried for assault!!

    This isn't necesarily sexist. Both the athlete and the coach are Korean.
    It has been the practice for centuries for the Sensei to beat students
    of the martial arts who do not perform, usually by striking them with
    a bamboo lath.
    
    This is also common in learning such non-martial things as Zen meditation.
     
    It is supposed to concentrate the mind on the single subject of concern:
    when you are so concentrated on the subject that you do not notice the
    pain then you can perform to your optimum potential.
    
    I am not in the least surprised to discover these techniques being used
    in training athletes: I would also be very surprised to see this change
    anytime soon. This appears to be nothing more than the unfortunate accident
    that both principals described it as, and I don't think we can apply
    Western judgements (implying a sexist attitude) to an oriental practice
    related to the trust and respect a student gives to a teacher.
    
    /. Ian .\

When I was in college, I went to the County fair and picked up a poster at
the Navy Recruiting booth.   It has a picture of a woman in a WWII (probably)
sailor suit.  It said:

	"Gee!!  I wish I were A MAN
	I'D join the Navy

	Be a man and do it
	United States Navy
	Recruiting Station"

(capitalized words were actually underlined in the poster).

I dunno, for some reason I just *loved* that poster.  It was so typically
sexist it was funny.

...Karen

    Poor /dave got a dose of "sexism" a few weeks ago.
    
    I called around to get estimates on getting central air in our house. I
    ended up selecting a one-man outfit in Litchfield, Airtech.  I talked
    with him several times on the phone and finally asked him to come out
    to the house and give a written estimate. 
    
    Well he arrived early and I arrived on time, so Dave showed him
    around the heating system.  All of the time Moe the technician kept
    referring to me whenever he was talking about decisions, thus sort
    of making a non-person out of Dave.  So on his way out he mentioned
    me again, and then added, "Oh, I guess you could do it too" to Dave.
    
    At the time Dave was a bit PO'd (I know I would be).  But looking
    back he thought it was pretty funny.  
    
    			Barbara b.

    
    commercials!
    
    scene: beautiful woman (of course) lounging at home
    	says "when we first got started" (referencing to her marriage?)
    	"i had to use generic shampoo"
    `	"but now that my husband has gotten a raise and promotion i
    can afford to buy the best!"
    
    all clothes detergents have woman who know what they are
    talking about in their commercials....
    and the men are boobs....(how clothes to the truth! :-)
    
    

    
    and game shows!!!!!
    men are the emcees (old and crotchety though they may be)
    and smiling beautiful woman (who say nothing) are the assistants.
    
    last week, on one show (yes, sometimes i'm forced to watch these
    things!) they took 30 seconds to let each of the 3 smiling beautiful
    woman tell what they've been up to...
    
    
    first woman : well, i'm waiting for my husband to come home from
    a trip....
    
    reaction of host: how wondeful
    
    second woman: my boy friend and i are buying a house and are
    contemplating marriage
    
    reaction of host: how wonderful
    
    third woman: i just did a one week show in las vegas
    
    reaction of host: thanks GIRLS
    
    apparently,being a married woman is wonderful but being a
    single woman and doing a show in vegas is old hat....
    after all, who hasn't done a show in vegas?
    

        >>  (yes, sometimes i'm forced to watch these
        >>  things!) 
    
    poor Rik! must be time for a little SO liberation :-)

    
    re. laru
    	(i'll take that as th ejoke i think you intended)
    
    
    (it WAS a joke...no?)
    

    re .131, here is a blatant example of sexism!!  Why do you assume
    that just because a man watches a quiz show that he was "forced"
    to watch it by his SO??  Well, *I* am his SO and I didn't tell him
    to watch the dumb show he mentioned!  I HATE quiz shows (they give
    such a mediocre view of life) and I didn't watch the one he mentioned
    either!  So, ya can't blame a women for everything!
    
    Lorna
    

    This is an example of both sexism and job snobbery/condescension.
     Yesterday, I answered the phone for one of the (male) techs in my group.
     The caller was a male, DEC employee.  He wanted to leave a message
    in regard to some cables the tech wanted to order.  He said, "Do
    you work in the group, too, or are you just answering phones?" 
    I said, "Well, I'm the secretary for the group."  He said, "Okay.
    Well, I'm gonna leave a message.  It's kinda technical, but I'll
    hold you hand and use little words."  He wasn't kidding.  I meant
    it.  I thanked him politely and took the message, but I felt like
    saying, "I said I was the *secretary*, not the retarded cleaning
    lady."  But, I wouldn't want to offend a person who just happened
    to be retarded, who is trying to make an honest living cleaning
    toilets.
    
    Lorna
    

    Our group is currently without a secy. I am the most senior
    person (and only female) yet the d###n phone can ring off the
    wall and I am the only one who will answer it. And when I do
    answer it every caller assumes I am the secy. I have had several
    of those "Well this is real technical " callers too. I wait
    until they are finished and than ask some real technical questions!
    
    But why can't some of those guys figure out how to star 7?
    

    Try bringing the issue up at staff, and get the support of your
    more senior management. In my area we all get reminded every
    few months that it is *everybodys* responsibility to answer the
    phones.

    Lorna, I can relate to that incident.  It happens all the time to
    me but the worst is when they'll say "can you take a long message"
    and I'll say, "that's part of my job" in a real sh*tty voice to
    let them know I don't appreciate stupid questions like that.
    
    Why is it that people (both men and woman) in a *different* position 
    than a secretary think that we are all brainless little twits?
    
    Another incident was when one of my Sales Reps left without telling
    me when they would be returning and the woman said in a real snooty
    voice "boy your just full of information today" and I politely told
    her "look, they don't pay me enough to take verbal abuse like that"
    and hung up on her.
    
    CC
    

    I think that secy'S are the most overworked and underpaid
    people in business.
    
    I get real mad at people who think otherwise. Having been
    a manager and had secy's I know I have had to fight harder
    for raises for them than eningeers!
    
    BTW postion for dept. coordinator  3 open in our group-send mail
    if interested!
    

                           
    re: "this is pretty technical, but I'll use little words"
    
    Jerk.  If it's so technical, where are you gonna get the little
    words from?  Why don't these people speak plainly to start with?
    
    How the hell do people function with this kind of attitude?  My
    job is not the sort of thing where I have a lot of contact with
    non-technical people (R & D is like that).  However, I've had jobs
    like that at other companies.
    
    If I want to leave a message with a secretary for someone, I should
    speak in language I expect the recipient of the message to understand.
    After all, the secretary is interested in getting an accurate message.
    She probably doesn't care what it means -- she's got better things
    to worry about.
    
    It makes me wonder...
    DFW
    
    

    Re .135
    
    Boy can I relate to that one.  I am a technician and at my last
    job (part of the reason it's my last/previous job), every time the
    secretary was out sick they'd ask, or should I say tell, me to answer
    the phone.  I was the only woman in the group at that time. 
                        Grrrrrrrrrrrrr 
    

    
    I always wondered why, when the secretary was out on a Thursday,
    I got to pick up the cost centers paychecks and distribute them...
    definitely not in a software engineers job description...
    
    Could it be that, at the time, I was the only woman in the group,
    besides my cost center manager?  I wonder if I was out too, would
    they ask her to do it?

    Sometimes I ask a secretary if he/she can take a long message.
                                          ---
    I don't mean "are you able" so much as "would it be possible for
    you to do me the favor of taking a long message?".
    
    If a secretary has people jumping up and down and phones ringing
    off the hook, I don't expect that person to take a long message.
    
    Would it be less offensive to say, "I'd like to leave a long message--
    are you available to take one now?".  That seems a bit convoluted!
    
    Holly 
         

    	RE:  .143
    
    	How about "May I leave a long message?"
    
    	If I'm talking to someone who is answering the phone for the
    	person I want and I then hear another line ringing, I'll say,
    	"Do you need to answer that?  I'll hold."
    
    	That seems to help sometimes.
    
    							Suzanne...

    From my perspective, I am always mildly astonished when someone
    asks me if I can take a long message.  That's what they pay me for!
    And juggling the other ringing phones, demands and interruptions
    is also what they pay for me.  
    

    re .136, .141
    
    I strongly recommend that anyone who's never done it should do phone
    duty for a few hours in a group that gets many phone calls.  I worked
    in a group where phone duty often got rotated among techs, thus
    I did my share.
    
    I quickly learned to take messages and transfer (or filter) calls
    efficiently.  I became a firm believer that *anyone* can learn to
    do this.  I also learned that many callers assume that if you answer
    so-and-so's phone, you *must* know where they are and what their
    day's schedule is.  I learned the pleasures of saying:
    
    Me:  "Hello, Software Services."
    Caller:  "Who's this?"
    Me:  "I don't know.  It depends on who *you* are!"
    
    Perhaps it's because I'm male, but I never ran into the "use little
    words" situation.  However, I *did* find that callers often assumed
    that because I was answering the phone, I wasn't capable of thinking
    about what they were saying.  Several times, after a caller had
    left a long message, I shocked them by suggesting a possible solution
    to their problem!

Sure, but *anyone* must be willing to do this efficiently.

Me      "Is Fran Smith in the office?"
  Anyone  "No."
Me      "Will Fran be in later today?"
  Anyone  "uuuu idonno."
Me      "Will Fran be in later this week?"
  Anyone  "uuuu idonno."
Me      "Before 1997?"
  Anyone  "uuuu idonno cause dey don't werk here no more." a real call.

>    I also learned that many callers assume that if you answer
>    so-and-so's phone, you *must* know where they are and what their
>    day's schedule is.  

So tell the caller you don't and offer to take a message.  The entire
statement should take, oh, 20 words AND 4 SECONDS.  But then you'd miss the
joy of having the caller beg for info, syllable by syllable.
    
A loutish secretary in a busy office can offend a 100 people a day, and
real secretaries suffer the after-affects of these louts. Most secretaries 
are women, ergo most loutish secretaries are women, and the louts make a 
big impression. Perhaps the feminists among us should haul the louts in a 
backroom and *reason* with them. Or at least haul them to DEC phone class.

                   Meigs, who served in the secretarial brigade for years.

    
    My mother's been a telephone operator forever.  These days, she
    worksfor the State of Rhode Island.  She answers about fifteen hundred
    phone calls a day, directing people to people, taking messages,
    dodging gossip, and so on, and so on.  It's like being a secretary
    for about a hundred people in five different departments.
    
    
    That is as close as I ever want to come to this sort of job.  It would
    make me crazy in a matter of hours, and my hat is off to anyone who can
    do it. 

    DFW

    I was an admin secretary (for a group of 12 but responsible for
    up to 80 people if the other secretaries are out [lunch]).  What
    really used to bug me was when after 4 rings, the phone hunts to
    the secretary's desk and when I answer, the caller has the nerve
    to ask, "is so-and-so there?".  Sometimes I've felt like saying,
    "apparently not mister/lady.  Didn't you hear it ring 5 times already".
     When I call, I know Digital's phone system and after 5 to 7 rings,
    it's not "is so-and-so there", it's "may I leave a message for
    so-and-so" and that gives the secretary time to offer whereabouts, time
    for him/her to write the message down and I can think of a proper way to 
    ask "did so-and-so let you know when she/he'll be back?".  If the
    secretary doesn't know, he/she doesn't know and really isn't supposed
    to.  If the employee desires to be found, he/she will let the secretary
    know, sign on those little grease boards or both.
    
    One other thing that used to bug me was this condescending woman
    would call my manager (I would get the phone after 2 rings) and
    if he weren't around, this &^*^* would give her name (example):
    
    Caller:  "Is John (fake name) there?"
    me:	     "No, he isn't at his desk at the moment.  May I take a
              message?"
    Caller:  "This is (example) Jane S*M*I*T*H (instead of Jane Smith).
      	      Tell him that I called".
    
    OOOOoooOOOooooOOO.  EVERY F***ING TIME.  I couldn't take it and
    I used to want to scream.  I met her in person and I was going to
    say, "Oh, you're Jane S*M*I*T*H".  Don't ever want to see that women
    near me again.
    
    I continue to provide telephone support of 1 manager and ISWS contracts
    in Field Service.  But, in Field Service, you answer the phone.
    PERIOD.  A busy phone is revenue, my sweet people.
    
    Cathy
    
    If things are urgent, I send MAIL.

    .146 -
    
    From a female tech in Field Service, believe me....nothing
    suprises me *or* my boss any more.  I have had soooo many
    people (male and female) think that just because I don't 
    have the right equipment I can't work on their machine.
    (I am not talking about my tool kit either...if you know 
    what I mean!).  
    
    The most astonishing thing about it is that I work in Internal
    Field Service so all this insulting jerks are Digital Employees
    as well.  The worst was when this guy asked for my credentials
    before I could work on his RA81.  I had to practically fill out
    an application to open the lid.  AFter about ten minutes of this
    jokers drilling I asked him if he would like to discuss my credentials
    with my very PROTECTIVE boss and our personnel department.  He 
    saw the light and his drive was working in about ten minutes! :^)
    
                             - Sue (who gets the best of em in the end!)

    re .148, can we haul the "lout" engineers and managers in the same
    room and give them a lesson in manners at the same time?
    
    They should at least realize that in America we are not supposed
    to have a caste system with secretaries the equivalent of an
    untouchable.  It would be nice if all managers and engineers would
    remember that DEC is not a sweatshop in Lowell circa 1910.
    
    It is not easy for the oppressed to *always* be polite to the
    oppressors.  No doubt the white guy on the bus thought Rosa Parks
    was a "lout" for not giving up her seat, too.  I'm not condoning
    rudeness or stupidity, but please remember we (secretaries) are
    *human beings*, we have our hopes and dreams and feelings just as
    you engineers and managers do, most of us have not had lobotomies,
    and most of us even have our high school diplomas.
    
    Sometimes I think you (all college graduates and/or WC 4's) are
    the enemy.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .147, what annoyed me the most the day that I put in a note that
    started this discussion was that the man on phone said "I'll hold
    your hand and use little words".  Now it was bad enough that he
    said he'd use "little words" - all he had to say was I'll try not
    to get too technical and I wouldn't have been offended because I'm
    not technical, nor do I care to be since I find technical things
    very boring - but "hold my hand".  No way would this jerk have told
    another man that he'd "hold his hand".
    
    The same guy called the other day and this time he just said, "Thanks,
    dear" after I took the message.  Yuk!  He sounds like a shoe salesman
    from 20 years ago!
    
    Lorna
    

    The reason that people will tell the secretary "Jane S*M*I*T*H",
    is because we have had our names misspelled beyond recognition, and
    are tired of giving a simple name, and being asked "how do you spell
    THAT!?", or having it 'verified' as wrong "OK, Ms. Young, I'll give
    Mary the message".  It was even worse with my former name "Denham",
    there were a number of people who would misspell it differently
    each time.  The problem is worse if you have an unusual name, such
    as one of Asian, Eastern European, or African origin.
    
    A name is a very personal thing, and many people would rather spell
    it out than see it grossly misspelled later.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    
    
    I think that most times it is the tone rather than the words
    that are most offensive.  That has been my personal experience.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |	Tone gives meaning to your message
    

    A couple of years ago, I tried to call someone and left a message for
    her.  She called me back several hours later and mentioned that the
    name on the message slip was 'Bubbly'. 

    For weeks afterwards, I made sure I spoke my name slowly and distinctly
    when leaving messages. 
    
    (Makes a good nodename, though.)

    Bob Leigh

        In the computer field, it's probably inevitable but at times I
        get the feeling that my last name is "Burrows--B U R R O *W* S",
        Given that it's a common word--what rabits and hedge hogs live
        in--it can be mildly annoying to spell it. If that annoyance
        ever shows through in my voice when you take a message from me,
        or the fact that I spell it immediately without being asked
        annoys you, I'm sorry. It doesn't mean anything bad about you.
        It's just so boring spelling it out and so frustrating to have
        my name misspelled. 
        
        I think that the source of much of the telephonic contratemps
        comes from the fact differ parts of DEC work very differently,
        and that many of us work on expections appropriate in our own
        area and not in others. 
        
        "Is Jim Burrows there?" is a very reasonable question. My phone
        forwards if it's busy, and when I'm in my office, it often is.
        It forwards if I'm just a few cubes away, and if it does I often
        head for the secretary's office. I'm in and out of my cubicle
        all day, but my secretary usually knows if I'm there. I'm
        terribly hard to get in touch with at times, and so the fact
        that I am at any given time hard to contact says very little
        about whether I'm in the office.
        
        JimB.
        
        JimB. 

    Jim, there's something funny about your first line:  as far as ever
    I've been led to believe, your name *is* "Burrows".  Did you mean
    to say "Burroughs"?  Did something drop out?

    Not only I have to S P E L L it out, I have to spell the spell-out
    too!
    
    "S as in Sam, O as in Orange ... " - me
    
    "Huh?"  - the other person
    
    "Orange, O R A"
    
- Vikas    

    He means "Burrows BURROWS" rather than just "Burrows" - like my name
    sometimes seems to be "Ravan - RAVAN - vee AY enn", which *still*
    turns out as "Raven" on the bill. (Why didn't I get Jim to become a
    Rust instead?!?!?) 

    I tend to be nervous about using telephones to talk to people I
    don't know. (Don't ask why I took a job on a project involving
    telephony!) This puts me somewhat in awe of people who answer phones
    for a living; the ability to be calm and reasonable in the face
    of threats, pleas, and general confusion from an assortment of
    strangers is a remarkable one indeed. 
    
    -b

    re .160
    
    Yeah, me too.  it seems t's sound like d's, p's, and b's.  The s's
    and f's tend to get mixed around too.
    
    I find if I start off with "t as in tom, a as in apple,..." people
    get pissed off.  We always have to do it by the time I get to the
    end, tho.
    
    Once they know me, saying "lee t" called is much, much easier.
    
    Lee

    I sympathize, folks, but as Ms. Younger said, even the simple names
    are a problem with some people.  My own name is easy: Johns.  Usually
    it comes back as Jones, often Johnson or John.  I almost always
    spell it, and it still comes back as these other names.
    
    Can we move these notes to another topic?
    
                   Carol

    I tried to figure out where to make the cut to transplant the "names"
    digression to its own note, and found that I couldn't do it cleanly.
    Might I second Carol's request, though, that the "names" discussion
    itself be moved to its own topic (if it's meant to be continued)
    and a pointer left here.
    
    That way we can return this topic to its original focus. 
    
    						=maggie

    Bradley Airport in Connecticut announced that they were installing
    special tables in the ladies rooms to be used for changing baby
    diapers....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ...they are also installing them in the MEN's rooms.
    
    Edd

re: .165: changing tables have been in the men's rooms in the
Modern Museum in Stockholm for over ten years.

Martin.

    From: John T. Baird ..............................................
    Stow, MA, USA
    
    RE:Dick Binder, Stainless Steel Rat 
    
    >Children are not objects to be possessed, and I resent deeply the use
    >of such pejorative language. 
    
    Up to now I have often enjoyed comments from the "Rat," but really,
    what pervasive inroads have been made by supposedly 'feminist'
    claptrap, even upon otherwise erudite individuals. 
    
    Wives and children are, have been, and will continue to be the
    'possessions' of the husband and parents. 'Possession' isn't
    pejorative, it's accurate. 
    
    John Baird 
    
    
    <><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1457   Wednesday  2-Dec-1987  
 
    
    ...lest we forget that DEC itself is far from perfect.
    
    						=maggie

    
    	RE:  .167
    
    	What is the legal basis for this statement?
    
    	Are marriage licenses and birth certificates *in reality*
    	just titles to property?
    
    	Give me a break.
    
    							Suzanne...

    So. Maggie, are you going to let it slide or are you going to
    do something (send mail to the person and/or VNS) about it?
    
    			Alfred

    Is this an offical DEC news item? Who is dick Binder?
    What was the question?
    

    Both people are deccies, and the comment is from the Vogon News
    Service, an informal daily compilation of news, sports results,
    and "letters to the editor".  It's done up on both sides of the
    pond, and is emailed out to all subscribers.  To get on the
    subscription list, send mail to LEROUF::VNS.
    
    						=maggie

    
    A recent example of sexism...
    
    I was at the BU bookstore the other night, and I saw a display
    of calendars called "BU GIRLS Calendar."  
    
    Did anyone else see this?  I am really furious, and I'm working
    on a letter.  Does anyone know if BU has produced this calendar
    before?
    
    Still fuming...
    
    Justine

    Maybe BU wants to advertise the fact that it's now accepting 10-year
    olds. But probably not...
    

    In no way justifying the calendar... 
    
    I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that "BU produced this calendar".
    Most likely some entrepreneur produced it, and is selling it through
    the bookstore. I don't know if the BU bookstore is an official arm
    of the university, but university bookstores frequently are
    independently managed, so BU the organization may not be involved in
    any way. 
    
    (Note, I did not go to BU...)

    
    I didn't mean to suggest that John Silber got out his camera
    and photgraphed 12 of his favorite "girls" at BU, but I suspect
    that BU could stop this calendar from being sold on its property.
    There may also be some legal boundaries around the use of the words
    Boston University or the initials BU on any publication.
    
    Justine

    The following response is from a member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ===================================================================
    
    When I log in first thing in the morning there appears a "fortune
    cookie" type message on the screen. These sayings can be sexist in
    nature, and not appropriate in business or anywhere else, for that
    matter. 

    Examples: 

    "A guy has to get fresh with a girl every so often, so she won't lose
    her confidence." 

    "A man seldom shows his dimples to girls who have pimples."


    These sayings speak for themselves, and are not the type of mesage
    that should be propagated, in my opinion. 

    On our system, the cookie program is optional.  I think it is possible
    to ask your system manager to allow people to put it in their login.com
    if they wish and leave it out of the system login file.
    
    I printed out the source file for cookie once, and I agree, it's
    about 10% totally obnoxious.  Perhaps someone should compile a new
    one with *thought-provoking* sayings!
    
    

    
    1.  check your own login.com file for an invocation of cookie. 
        Usually there's a line that looks something like:
    
        $@sys$something:cookie
    
    2.  if you invoke any group command files to define logical names
        and such, check in there for an invocation of cookie. 
    
    3.  if you don't find it in any of those places, ask the system
        manager.
    
    4.  if the system manager won't give you any cooperation, go to
        personnel.  believe me, they've seen this program before.  Numerous
        times.  It's been offending people for years.  Most of the stuff
        that isn't sexually offensive is either racially offensive or
        just gross.
    
    If it's any consolation:  a person who helped distribute the cookie
    program in the first place (back when I first started) hasn't been with
    DEC for a number of years, and his misogyny had a lot to do with why he
    left.  Couldn't stand working for a woman, poor dear.  
    
    --bonnie

I have slightly over 10,000 cookies online.  Some are sexist, some are
not.  10% sounds unlikely.  Just like real life.  Searching for "woman"
in the first 2000, I find, among others:

	Tonight I give lecture to Art Students' League.

	I want picture of a horse to show that animal is beautiful
	because every part made for function, without ornament.

	In Paris, I would show woman, but in Toronto I show a horse.
			-- Anonumous French Artist.
--

	Ducking for apples -- change one letter and it's the story
	of my life.
			-- Dorthy Parker
--
	Age before beauty, ... and pearls before swine.
			-- Dorthy Parker
--
	A woman's appearance depends upon two things: the clothes
	she wears and the time she gives to her toilet... Against
	the first we bring the charge of ostentation, against the
	second of harlotry.
			-- Tertullian (180? - 230?)
--
	Men still remember the first kiss after women have forgotten
	the last.
--
	Many writers are bad at being promiscuous with women, from the
	certainty of knowing how the affair will end before it has even
	begun.
			-- Andrew Sinclair (biography of Dylan Thomas)
--
	Nothing makes a Woman more esteemed by the opoosite sex than
	Chastity; whether it be that we always prize those most who
	are hardest to come at, or, that nothing besides Chastity with
	its collateral attendants, Truth, Fidelity, and Constancy, gives
	the man a property in the person he loves, and consequently
	endears her to him above all things.
			-- Addison.
--
	Don't ask f'r rights.  Take thim.  An' don't let anny wan give
	thim to ye.  A right that is handed to ye f'r nawthin' has
	somethin' th' matter with it.
			-- Finley Peter Dunne ("Mr. Dooley") (1867-1936)
				On Woman Sufferage
--
	Despite my 30 years of research into the feminine soul, I have
	not yet been able to answer ... the great question that has
	never been answered: What does a woman want?
			-- Signumd Freud

    You and I have different cookie files.  Yours *are* thought provoking.
    Ours is mostly a collection of one-liners, and I think about 10%
    are on the rude/crude/lewd side.
    
    I should start collecting the ones I like, and run my own personal
    cookie program.
    
    If anyone is looking for a daily dose of thought-provoking material,
    the person who runs the serenity network has a distribution list
    for sending out a daily message.  It's mostly based on AA materials,
    but I like it a lot even though I am not an alcoholic.  Contact
    CSSE::Hall and ask about being put on the mailing list for the daily
    message if you are interested.

    Re:  .181
    
    			Signumd!

	RE: .0

	You're right that it shouldn't be distributed.  Complain to
	your manager and tell her/him that you would like the cookie
	file removed from the system.  It is not enough that you
	don't receive them anymore, no-one should.  DEC's resources
	should not be used in this manner.  It's hard to stop individuals
	from having their own copy, but it should definately not be
	part of the system part of the login!

	...Karen

re: .184

Yeah right, get rid of it for everybody.

Whatever you do, don't do what me and a bunch of my friends did and
write your own cookie file.  That's the easy way out.

While, we're at it, you guys wouldn't mind my re-reading the
"feminist jokes" note and toss out everything I think is sexist, huh?

Martin.

from the cookie file:

	The land of the free!  This is the land of the free!
	Why, if I say anything that displeases them, the free
	mob will lynch me, and that's my freedom.  Free? Why
	I have never been in any country where the individual
	has such an abject fear of his fellow countrymen.  Because,
	as I say, they are free to lynch him the moment he shows
	he is not one of them.
				-- D. H. Lawrence (1885-1930)

RE: .184

"DEC's resources should not be used in this manner."

Isn't that a rather sweeping statement?  Couldn't that same statement be
said for this or any nonwork conference?  And probably has?

Jim. 

re: .185

>Whatever you do, don't do what me and a bunch of my friends did and
>write your own cookie file.  That's the easy way out.
>
>While, we're at it, you guys wouldn't mind my re-reading the
>"feminist jokes" note and toss out everything I think is sexist, huh?

Martin, if the file is sexist it shouldn't be automatically sent to everyone
on the system.  I don't understand why you object.  Yes, creating a non-sexist
file is a wonderful alternative that no-one should mind receiving.  Allowing
a sexist file only perpetuates sexist attitudes. 

I disagree that a discussion of "feminist jokes" is along the same lines.
Implicit in the topic is that these jokes can be sexist.  I the manner in
which the topic was introduced appropriate for wommannotes.  If you don't
than feel free to object.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: .186

>"DEC's resources should not be used in this manner."
>
>Isn't that a rather sweeping statement?  Couldn't that same statement be
>said for this or any nonwork conference?  And probably has?

Jim, "this manner" means for distributing sexist material.  I don't think
that applies to this and any nonwork conference.  Do you feel that it's
appropriate for DEC's resources to be used to distribute sexist cookies?
	

RE: both

Are you afraid that stopping the automatic distribution of sexist material is
stepping on your rights to be receivers of such material?  Please explain, I
don't understand the last two responses.

...Karen

Sexism is in the eyes of the beholder.  I find many of the "feminist
jokes" in this file -- and many of the "statements of fact and/or opinion"
sexist.  I find many of the religious discussions contrary to my religious
beliefs.

This does not mean that I object to *your* reading or writing them.
I can judge for myself and assume you can do the same.

One function of a properly-done cookie file is to make you stop a moment
and think.  Displaying something you object to is one way to make
you think, both about your beliefs and prejudices and those of others.

Consider the specific examples in 77.178 (both of which are among the
10,000 in my cookie file, though with different wording):

"A guy has to get fresh once in a while so the girl doesn't lose her
confidence."

"Men seldom show dimples to girls who have pimples."

What do these say about American mating rituals.  Are they true in
your own life?  Not, I emphasize, "should they be true" but are they
true?  Would censoring the statement help elminate the situation?  Would
censoring the statement impede the elimination of the situation?
Should, indeed, the situation be eliminated?  Should we also eliminate
the notes in this notesfile that discuss the very same situations?

The second cookie is a parody of an Ogden Nash couplet: "Men seldom
make passes at girls who wear glasses."  Should we censor other
Ogden Nash poetry, such as "Candy is dandy, but liquoir is quicker."

Martin.

RE: .187 Karen Sullivan

"Are you afraid that stopping the automatic distribution of sexist material is
stepping on your rights to be receivers of such material?"

Your previous note states that it would be.  It states that no one should
recieve such.

RE: .184 Karen Sullivan

"Complain to your manager and tell her/him that you would like the cookie file
removed from the system.  It is not enough that you don't receive them anymore,
no-one should.  DEC's resources should not be used in this manner."

Jim.

    Martin,
    
    if it's any consolation, i, too, find some of the "feminist jokes"
    in this file distasteful and offensive. i'd be much happier if some
    of them would quietly go away. others are, in my opinion, a little
    more acceptable.
    
    as for cookie files, i'd prefer that they be an option, not mandatory.
    the problem for me with seeing an anti-woman fortune upon login
    is that it feels like DEC is saying that to me. in the case you
    cited, i don't want dec to tell me first thing that women's self
    worth comes from being treated as a sexual object. (no arguments
    here please -- that's my interpretation of the fortune).
        
    does the cookie file also contain anti-black or anti-semitic fortunes?
    they, of course, would not be there with the intent of offending, but
    only to make people think a little when they log in... 
    
    liz

    re:  the Cookie argument
    
    The participants in this argument don't seem to quite comprehend that
    the program called Cookie does not use the same text file on all
    systems. 
    
    Martin is quoting from the official file - if there is such a thing as
    an offical version of an unofficial program.  It serves all the
    purposes Martin advocates, including free speech and provoking thought.
    (What a radical idea!)
    
    Another popular text file for Cookie consists mostly of wisecracks
    and jokes.  The level of thoughtfulness in this file is about on
    a par with the line I got this morning:
    
          !lanimret eht edisni deppart m'I  !pleH

    Various incarnations of this other file have been removed from other
    system command procedures because forced readers found them sexually,
    racially, and religiously offensive.  Sometimes the offensive remarks
    are edited out of the text file; usually just removing it from the
    system command file so that people who want it can invoke it
    individually is felt to be an adequate compromise between my rights of
    free speech and my rights not to be harrassed.  
    
    I don't know of anyplace where the whole program has been removed.  I
    do know of a couple of cases where personnel had to intervene to get it
    taken out of the system login procedures. 

    I'm currently getting wisecrack-cookie because when I restarted
    at DEC, I copied a login.com file that invokes it.  Some day I will
    get around to editing it out -- after I've cycled through the same
    tired old one-liners for another time or two . . .
    
    --bonnie

What official cookie file?  Gaak, I certainly hope not.

My cookie file is a collection of a large number of sources, including:

-- The Dec-10 cookie file
-- The Berkeley Unix "fortune" file.
-- The MIT-AI cookie file
-- The AI Hacker's dictionary
-- "On this day in history," a collection of horrible puns.
-- A bunch of Yiddish insults someone sent me
-- A *large* collection of aphorisms that a bunch of friends entered in 1978.
-- Intersting things that came my way since then.

It is quite easy to add cookies to the file.  If you want to add non-sexist,
or outright feminist cookies, perhaps we should just create a note and
I'll extract them when enough are added.

Format:

Lines of text.
Separate cookies by a line consisting of "%%" (only.)
Start in column 1 (for prose).
%%
  Poetry or text
   which is displayed
    without reformatting is
     entered with at least
      one leading space.
				-- Author unknown.
%%

    Gee, Martin, I don't suppose you'd offer your cookie file for general
    consumption? I think we've got the one-liner version, and while
    a few of 'em are cute, they're hardly inspirational or
    thought-provoking. Sounds like yours has all the best stuff in it
    already...
    
    -b

    I agree.  I'd love to see a good, thought-provoking cookie file
    put in a public directory where it could be copied and then used
    in lieu of the trivial one.  I would like to have my own, and would
    be delighted to add sayings to it.
    
    If this is doable, I would need to know the mechanics of what to
    put in my login.com to get the file to feed me a saying a day from
    the longer file...must be a command procedure.

    re: .193 --
    
    Martin, it looks like your version of the file, which you collect from
    a large number of sources, has become the semiofficial version for
    a great many of us who just invoke what the system manager gives us.
    Either that, or several independent people compiled similar files
    from similar sources.  (always possible.)
    
    When you've got something good, people copy it.  Some people copy
    thoughtful quotes and good puns (bad puns?); other people copy sexist
    remarks and jokes that were stale in high school.  
    
    I find it rather scary to think that something one does for one's own
    enjoyment, interest, or meditation, can spread all over the network and
    become a sort of de facto standard for others who know nothing of the
    circumstances surrounding the original creation.  It will certainly
    make me think twice before I do something 'just for fun' that I don't
    intend to let anyone outside my group see.  Next thing I know it'll pop
    up on uncle Ken's terminal! 
    
    The implications for changing the role of a person who calls herself
    'writer' are mind-boggling.  In this environment, 'copyright' has no
    meaning -- none that's enforceable, anyway.  It seems possible that
    the poet and the storyteller will once again become public property,
    as they were in traditional societies.  
    
    But that's off the topic.  Sorry.
    
    --bonnie

Guess the secret's out.  The files may be copied from
	BOLT::USER:[MINOW.COOKIE]*.*
until I need the disk space for other things.  Please do not
copy the files during the daytime.

There are 11 cookie text files (with 1000 cookies in the first ten
and the remainder in the last file).  There are also two programs:
Whatever organization the files originally had has been lost.

cookie.c (cookie.exe) prints cookies.

cooidx.c (cooidx.exe) builds the indexed file that accesses cookies.

To use cookie (cookbook method), do the following.

1. you have stored all the files in DISK:[DIRECTORY.COOKIE].

2. define a foreign command line.  You can add this to your login.com file:

   $ cookie :== "$disk:[directory.cookie]cookie.exe disk:[directory.cookie]"

   Note that you must identify the disk and directory to vms in order
   to run the program, and to cookie in order to find the files.

3. invoke cookie:

   $ cookie

If you add cookies, put them in a separate file, calling it cookie.011.
Then, run cooidx to build a new index.

Note: the program and data files are subject to change without notice.

Martin.

    Is this an extension of the one that was put together in MDC
    by Dick Munroe back around 78?
    
    If so, have you expunged all the #@!&@ Lazarus Long quotations?

re: .198

You got it!  Rather than expunge the Lazerus Long quotes, I added a
"-h" option to eliminate them at execution time.  (My old version
also had a VMS mode /HEINLEIN=NO).

Martin.

Return-Path: 3d::decwrl::trainor@cs.ucla.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 88 02:08:11 est
From: 3d::decwrl::trainor@cs.ucla.edu (Vulture of Light  6-Mar-88 2240 PST)
To: miles bader <bader+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: WYSIWYG ? 

Cc: XPERT@athena.mit.edu
 
 
>> Try the Andrew editor on the X tape.
 
>It's not nearly WYSIWYG...  But it IS a nice *editor*.
 
The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider
"What you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text 
Editors as it is in women. 
 
But seriously, anyone know how many hours went into the Andrew editor?
 
    douglas
 
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In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 06 Mar 88 23:39:30 -0500.
             <QWAWa2y00UkaQPVmx8@andrew.cmu.edu> 
    

    From my Harvard Community Health Plan Subscriber Agreement:
    
    Page 21 Section H Coordination of Benefits and Subrogation
    
    1. Coordination of Benefits
    	
    	Payments for HCHP Benefits will be coordinated with benefits
    	available under the Member's other insurance policies,...the following
    	rules shall decide primary and secondary obligation:
        a. ...
    	b. The plan covering the person as a Dependent of a male has
     	   primary obligation; the plan covering the person as a Dependent
    	   of a female has secondary obligation.
    
    So if my (hypothetical) kid gets sick and both I and my (hypothetical)
    wife have dependent coverage for the kid, my insurance pays.  Can
    anyone think of a reason for this besides the sexist notion that
    it is the man's responsibility to pay?

    					MJC O->

    from what I've heard, HCHP has gotten a lot of angry mail over this.
    The explanation they give is that they simply selected some arbitrary
    rule and will adhere to it.  
    
    The variety of rules to govern Dependents of multiple plans varies
    from which "guardian" has their birthday earlier in the year (ie.
    if I was born Jan 4 1963 and my hypothetical husband was born Sept
    19 1961, our hypothetical child's _primary_ coverage would be off
    my plan) to the gender-based one you mention.
    
    They stressed that no matter what rule they use, it is by necessity
    going to be arbitrary and unfair.
    
    I don't see how their rule covers two guardians of the same sex.
    I also don't see why they cannot simply have the two guardians in
    question determine whose coverage will be primary for which dependants.
    
    Lee

    It's even worse.  Suppose that a woman is an HCHP subscriber, and
    her husband subscribes to an insurer which has "arbitrarily" said
    that the plan covering the person as a dependent of a *female* has
    the primary obligation.  Then *nobody* would pay!
    
    	-Neil 

    re: .202
    
    Lee, a lot of policies won't coordinate benefits between two
    female guardians.  Even if there isn't a question of lesbian
    marriage . . .the case I know of involved two sisters who had
    joint custody of their late brother's only daughter.
    
    --bonnie

    as I recall the last HCHP newsletter I got (before withdrawing from the
    plan), they've changed the rule so that the "primary" person is the one
    whose birthday fell first in the calendar year. they were careful to
    note that this wasn't the *older* person, just the one whose birthday
    was closest after 1 jan. 

    they admitted that it was seen as sexist (although I don't think they
    admitted that *they* saw it as such), and so changed it.

    					-- hs

    NPR this morning had a piece on Judy Chicago's "Birth Project".
    Some comments by a woman from Simmons <something> (art professor?
    critic? - well, anyway, someone important enuff to interview) said
    the Birth Project was "too female" and "too violent". 
    
    ...that we're USED to the violence of war, but we're NOT used to
    the violence of birth... 
    
    I am absolutely speechless in the face of these comments. Except:
    
    
    WHAT THE F*** IS "TOO FEMALE"?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?
    
    Egad.
    
    --DE
    

    Yeah, I heard the same report.  The Simmon's prof. is probably
    concerned about radical wimmin invading the Simmons campus since
    it's a stone's throw from the Northeastern U.'s gallery.
    
    For the life of me I'll never understand the "too violent...too
    female" comments.  Maybe she was sub-consciously describing misogyny...
    oh sigh, probably not.
    
    am

    
    Yes, sexism *is* alive and living at...
    
    a local OSCO drug store...
    
    I dropped in this morning to pick up some cards.  Among their typical
    array of bric-a-brac and gifts was a display of brass money clips
    personalized with names - ALL MALE NAMES!!!!  And there was one
    engraved with #1 DAD and #1 GRANDPA but no #1 MOM or GRANDMA!
    
    I guess they think women don't carry cash!
    
    Rita
    

    I friend of mine told me this the other night. 
    
    He overheard two businessmen talking. One asked the other how
    many people he had working for him. The answer was 160. The first
    person expressed surprise at the small number given all the business
    they were doing. The second person explained, "Well if you count
    the women and part time help there is a lot more."

    Hard to believe there are still people with attitudes like that.
    
    			Alfred    

        

    	RE: .209
    
    	That reminds me of the guy who rejoiced when he heard the
    	prediction that more of the technical staff at his plant
    	would be women (in the future) -- he was happy because,
    	to him, it meant that he'd be paying a LOT LESS for labor
    	overall.
    

    told to me recently at work:
    just like a girl to cry when they dont get their way.
    
    ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I say we homogenize and 'humanize' the entire English language,
    remove any possibly offensive (ie sexist) words, and burn every
    book that has a single sentence or paragraph that can possibly
    be construed as being sexist in nature.
    
    In this way sexism will grind to a halt.
    
    Amongst a few other things...

    	> burn every book that has a single sentence or paragraph
    	> that can possible construed as being sexist in nature...
    
    	You're obviously not serious about this, so why bring it up?
    

    re .213   Suzanne,
                       People are specialists at finding statements
           that are different in some way.  When I see terrible things
           written in a book or heard in a conversation, I remember
           them.  And while I can't help but wonder about the impact
           such statements tend to have on me (ie that's 'bigoted/sexist')
           I do not just 'form' a negative image.  I look at what  was
           said before and after such comments.
    
             While adults of course do examine the preceeding and following
           paragraphs to "offensive" statements, adults also often react
           to that specific particular statement that is deemed "offensive"
           and often will form an opinion about a person (values, att-
           itudes, etc) based on selected parts of the speakers speech.
    
             This can be dangerous.
    
             An example of this is 478.207 where numerous quotes are
           taken from various texts (mostly religious).
    
             As I found these paragraphs to be very offensive, it really
           would have been enlightening to see at least 1-2 paragraphs
           that preceded and followed such statements.  Perhaps then
           I could have seen what the author meant.  
    
             However offensive such .207 statements were, the real 
           offense was seeing such comments so isolated, so meaningless.
    
             I then threw in similar remarks by Nietzsche and then deleted
           them when people started in on the noter and not the statements
           presented. 
    
                                                  Russ

    	RE: .214
    
    	> However offensive such [478].207 statements were, the real
    	> offense was seeing such comments so isolated, so meaningless.
    
    	Russ, you are the all-time undisputed Champion Supplier_of_
    	Published_Quotes_Taken_Out_of_Context_and_Reprinted_in_Notesfiles
    	in the History of Womannotes.
    
    	I hope your comment above means that you have since seen the error 
    	of your ways.  :-)

    Please take the dialog to another string?  Thanks.
    
    						=maggie

    Back to the subject.
    
    Heard on NPR a couple of weeks ago during a discussion of what to
    do with Dorothy Parker's ashes (the woman died in (what?) 19*73*
    fer Godsakes!) Anyhoo:
    
    One of the men interviewed said (paraphrasing) -- she wasn't a
    *woman* writer; she was a *writer* --- (with great admiration in
    the voice)
    
    --DE
    

    Last week in the process of interviewing for another position
    in the company(DEC!) I was asked the following questions:
    
    1. Is travel a problem for you? I replied no.
    2. What about your family? I replied that the cats had a dedicated
       sitter on beck and call.
    3. How come you got your degree so late in life? I replied that
       it takes 8 years to get a 4 year degree when one works full time.
    
    
    ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                             

    RE: .218 I don't understand. I've been asked similar questions
    both at DEC and other places. Men get asked those questions too.
    
    			Alfred

re: .218

I was asked all three of these questions when I interviewed at Dec in 1972.
Although I was an American living in Sweden during the Vietnam war,
I was not asked whether travel to the United States would be a problem
(this would have been considered an illegal query about political issues
under Swedish law).  In fact, it wasn't until after I was hired that my
boss asked whether I would have any problem with training in Maynard.

Martin.

    RE: .218
              Those were typical questions that I was asked while
    interviewing both in and out of DEC. What didn't you like about
    them? Did you think they were sexist questions?
                                                         Bill

    The reason 478.208 was viewed as being offensive opinions of the
    noter is that unlike 478.207 there was no explanation as to why
    the quotations were being cited.  I have a copy of .208 if anyone's
    interested in reviewing the context of the discussion accurately.
    Further, when Nietzsche is quoted out of context and followed by
    later replies by the same noter advocating viewing women as property
    and defending this, well.  I also have copies of these notes, for
    those who care to go over the discussion by themselves again.

    A woman I met Friday told me a fascinating story. 

    She attends college full-time and also works for the college. She
    was promoted from Admin. Sec. (at $13500) to problem-solver for
    their computer/WP system (at $16000). Then she learned that the
    union *custodians* were making $18500. (The custodians were all
    male.)  She applied for a job as custodian. (She's a single parent 
    with a mortgage - money decisive factor.) 
    She was strongly dissuaded from seeking the job, on the grounds that
    a woman couldn't climb ladders or do heavy lifting. (She's
    a rock-climber and whitewater canoeng instructor!) She pressed on
    and eventually got the job.

    Oh, where is this bastion of sexism ?
    Smith College in Northampton, Mass.

    Re: .223
    
    >Then she learned that the union *custodians* were making $18500.
    
    I think the key word here is "union."

    ...On the radio news...
    
    I heard a report about some country trying to clean up the prostitution
    in their cities.  The report said..."The police went out and rounded
    up and arrested all the cities working girls."
    
    Yuck.
    

    I got a call around 7:00 last night from one of those food services
    trying to drum up business.  I usually just say I'm not interested,
    but I'm currently considering taking a position that will require
    extensive foreign travel, so I thought this might be good to get
    so that I don't have to cram in grocery shopping when I'm home,
    and my husband won't have to do it (it's not one of his favorite
    chores).  Anyhow, the guy proceeded to ask what time my husband
    usually gets home from work (I figured to see when we would both
    be available to talk to us), and what does your husband do, and
    the  "gee, you must be very proud of him to have such a terrific
    job" lines followed.  Then he went into "does he make more than
    xxx", and the "gee, you must be very proud of him to have such a
    terrific job" lines some more.  I waited patiently for him to get
    to the same questions for me, silly me, I was thinking that I might
    count somewhere, too.  He just proceeded into his sales pitch totally
    ignoring the fact that I might actually have a job, too, and I might
    do more than just sit around the house all day waiting for my hubby
    to return from his hard day at the office (at that terrific job).
    
    I kind of lost it at that point and told this guy that I refuse
    to do business with such a sexist company, and that all their
    assumptions were incorrect.  I am the primary breadwinner, not my
    husband; I make the financial decisions, not him; and I refuse to
    deal with a company that thinks I don't count.
    
    Will these people ever learn?  Seems to me, all they have to do
    is ask the same questions for both spouses.  Must be too simple
    of a solution.
    

re: .226:
    I got a call around 7:00 last night from one of those food services
    trying to drum up business.
    ...
    Anyhow, the guy proceeded to ask what time my husband
    usually gets home from work (I figured to see when we would both
    be available to talk to us) ...

This is not necessarily a smart thing to answer to someone who just called
out of the blue.  The caller might be casing the house for a burglary.

M.

    Re .226, .227:
    
    (You may be paranoid, Martin, but sometimes they *are* out to get
    you...)
    
    As I was reading .226 I kept wondering why the author continued
    to answer those questions. When I get that kind of call I usually
    answer the first question with "What can I do for you?" in a suitably
    impatient tone of voice, so we can just get on with whatever they're
    trying to sell.
    
    I have often wondered why a legit company would ask such awful
    questions as part of the regular sales pitch, though. I agree with .226
    that it is bound to put off a percentage of the customers, and it would
    be  much simpler to just ask, "May I speak with the person who manages
    the household" - or, better still, "I would like to offer you a bargain
    on <foo>," and leave it up to the callee to decide whether somebody
    else should do the bargaining. 
    
    I suppose there's a marketing study somewhere, though, that "proves"
    that intimidating phone calls make more sales than sensible, less
    intrusive ones. Sigh.

    -b

    Martin's right. Never, NEVER answer questions to a stranger over
    the phone relating to income, arrival and departure schedules,
    vacations, jobs, etc.
    
    Not unless you're looking for a good excuse to buy a new stereo
    system, anyway.

    Check out the most recent Datamation!  (April 15th, 1988, one of
    the ad pages between 96 and 101)
    
    Whatever it is that the American Association of Advertising Agencies
    is selling, I don't buy their ad!  And to quote the copy, this photo
    must be based on "a great deal of thought" and "many years of
    reflection".

      ...living at my condo's management group.
    
    I called the condo's management group to ask a few questions.  One of
    them was to tell them that I was a Ms. not a Mr.  Somehow when the
    management group took over from the builder the name listings on our
    bill went from "Mr. David Hukill and Ms. Suzanne Poirier" to Mr. D.
    Hukille and Mr. S. Poirier.  I thought it was kind of funny but I
    wanted to correct it.  Joking around with the person I was talking to I
    said just curious how I went from being a woman to being a man. 
    
    "Oh well the list we received from the builder said D. Hukill and
    S. Poirier.  And you know it is proper ediquette if you don't know
    the sex to assume it is a man.  You see men get so much more offended
    if they are referred to as being a Miss than a woman does being
    referred to as a Mr."
    
    Well I thought it was funny at first but now I'm a little pissed.
    This ediquette s*cks - it just promotes the same old double standard.

    I want to know what Miss Manners would say!

    That just shows that we need something like "M." (which,
    unfortunately, happens to be the abbreviation for "Monsieur",
    and so is sex-specific) as a neuter formal address.
    
    As for men being offended, I don't know. I always find it
    highly entertaining when I get junk mail addressed to "Mrs.
    Jerel Boyajian". It was even more amusing the one time when
    someone got my last name inside out and the mail was addressed
    to "Mrs. Jean Boya". If anything, I'd be more offended by the
    assumption that I was a "Mrs." and not a "Miss" rather than
    not a "Mr."
    
    --- jerry

        We're still  laughing  at  when  I  called  a  charity  TV show
        offering a contribution  from our family - the envelope arrived
        addressed to "Ms Ali  Fraser"!    Must  have been the accent (I
        hope)
        
        Andy.
        

    
    I'd be pissed if they called me "Ms", "Mrs", or "Miss".
    
    They should take the trouble to get the gender correct.
    
    

    
    re .235
    
    But what if `they' didn't know ?

    Well, I get royally annoyed to things addressed to 

        		Mr. Lisa ...
    
    I don't think just because men would get annoyed to be addressed
    as Ms. that it's any more "proper" to use "Mr."  Women aren't
    necessarily flattered by it.

    The strip two weeks ago really takes the cake.
    Nasal Lardbottoms "trans-racial" operation has been annoying enough,
    but the interview with his parents, where they wind up with
    
     	Dad:	"I'm just relieved it wasn't a sex-change!"
            
    

    
    
    Simple if you do not know gender.
    
     no Mr. Ms. or any thing just Initial and last name.  titles are
    old fashioned anyway.
    
    Hardly anyone used Master to denote young male.
    
    for example    D. Whatsyourname and L. Idonotcare.
    
    Dave
    
    

    It seems the "Mr." addressed to a woman could be
    pretty annoying. But my husband had an even bigger gripe.
    When we were just living together (not with benifit of
    marriage), he used to receive mail as "Mr. George Pry"
    Pry was my maiden name. Because I bought the condo we were
    living in, the mailers ASSUMED my last name was HIS last 
    name. How utterly sexist!!
    
    pat (now Pederson, which alleviates the confusion)
    

    re .240
    
    Aw that's nothing...My husband and I are married but we both chose
    to keep our original names.  Quite a few times he has been addressed
    as Mr. Poirier and me as Mrs. Hukill.  We also get mail for Mr and
    Mrs Suzanne Poirier. Makes sense, huh??
    
    I still don't understand why men would be more offended being addressed
    as a Ms, Miss, Mrs than a womn would be being addressed as a Mr.
    

    re: .241
    
    I doubt that there's much difference in the degree of annoyance,
    but the men's anger is taken seriously and the women's anger
    isn't. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    re .237 and others...
    
    Last year at this time, I was about to graduate from WPI. I had
    an interview with a small-ish company (who shall, of course, remain
    name-less). About a week after the interview, I got the standard
    Thanks-for-your-time,-We'll-be-in-touch letter. The only thing was, 
    the letter started off: "Dear Mr. Asbury". And, at the top, it was
    written Mr. Amy Asbury...
    
    My roommate got a similar letter from the same company addressed
    to Mr. Lisa. 
    
    We called and suggested they "get with the times" and update whatever
    program it is that generates these things...
    
    I was immediately turned off by this and would most likely never
    have accepted a position with this company.
                                               
    -Amy.

    RE:  .243   .237
    
    Am I missing something?  Do you believe that the company sending
    the mail assumes you are a man for some reason?  Do you feel that
    they are trying to flatter you by assuming you're a man?  Is being
    addressed as "Mr" some sort of insult?  Since my first name is
    Marion, I have received many, many letters for Mr. Marion ... and
    I have never considered the sendor to be guilty of anything but
    makeing a mistake.
    
    Mairon
    

Addendum to 77.223
------------------
The following is a fuller description of the situation described
previously. The woman in question wrote a paper for school based
on her experiences there. When approached by a reporter for a local
newspaper, she gave a copy to the reporter, who subsequently
showed it to her editor. The editor asked for,and received permission
to print the paper in Hampshire Life. It appeared on April 29, 1988,
under the byline "First Person".

Reprinted here with permission.

====================================================================

Up the Pay Scale, Down in Status

by Tracey Baker
--------------------------------------------------------------------

   I am now employed as a custodian at Smith College, charged with 
maintaining College Hall. Previously, I held the position of Academic 
Secretary at Wright Hall. As a custodian at College Hall, I empty 
wastebaskets. As a secretary at Wright hall, I filled them.
   As a secretary, I dressed "tastefully" (expensively), always
remembering that I was a visual symbol of my academic department.
As a custodian, I dress economically, in terms of both time and
money.
   While a secretary, I was privy to matters of tenure and other 
subjects of a confidential nature. In my first days of employment, 
I was lectured on the importance of discretion. As a custodian,
I am also often privy to confidential information. In my first days
of custodial work, I received a note adressing the dishonor of
indiscretion.
   As a secretary, I was considered "staff," had the means of 
receiving college mail, and was a member of the "Smith College 
community." As a custodian, under union representation, I am no 
longer in the categories of faculty, staff, or student and 
therefore am no longer considered a member of said community and 
have no viable means of receiving campus mail.
   As a secretary, I often accompanied friends to the Faculty 
Center for lunch, or celebrated occasions there with my parents.
As a custodian, I am only welcome there as a member's guest, or 
if my intention is to clean the dining room or shovel snow, 
although my conduct and eating habits have not been affected by 
my change in occupation.
   As a secretary, I earned an annual salary of $13,200 with a 
salary cap of $18,940. As a custodian, I earn a salary of $18,000 
with an opportunity for overtime at time-and-a-half.
   Typically, higher salaries are accompanied by an increase in
status and credibility. Here, a higher salary is accompanied by
a decrease in both. I find this ironic in an institution that
claims to be working toward eliminating "oppressive behavior."
   As a secretary, the majority of my time was spent in the company
of women. As a custodian, I am in the company of men. The most 
recent study in comparative earning power showed that a woman 
earns 60 cents for every dollar earned by a man. Since the 
clerical staff at Smith College is approximately 95 percent
women and the custodial staff is 95 percent men, it seems we are 
quite consistent with this study. I find this ironic in an 
institution dedicated to the "rights and privileges of women."
   There has been so much discussion about the problems on this
campus, I feel that looking at the issues of discrimination
from this level might be enlightening. I believe that it is
possible for Smith to remain the traditional college that it
is and still treat its employees fairly. It is important that
the administration of this school set good examples for the 
students for whose education they are taking responsibility. 
Sexism cannot be fought where it is employed by its adversaries. 
There are some traditions that should not be continued.

    Diana, Princess of Wales, was quoted yesterday as saying she sometimes
    tells her younger son, Prince Harry, that if he misbehaves she will
    trade him for a girl. Diana, whose husband, Prince Charles, is heir
    to the British throne, spoke to Alison Smith, a mother of two
    daughters, while opening a drug rehabilitation unit southwest of
    London. Smith said she asked the princess whether she wanted a sister
    for Harry, 3, and his 5-year old brother, William. Smith said the
    26-year-old Diana replied: "There's plenty of time left yet." She
    then quoted Diana as saying: "I sometimes say to Harry, 'If you
    are not good I'll exchange you for a girl.'"
    
    Boston Globe, 26 May, p. 2.

    If We only knew how much our spoken word affects our children.
    
    The following happened in KENTUCKY some years ago:
    
    A mother of a Girl about 5-6 years old and a boy, about 2-3, 
    would say when he would wet his pants, "if you do not learn
    to Potty, I will cut this off." 
    
    One Day a Week or so later she heard screams and when she went
    in the Daughter had Taken sissors (sp) and Cut off he brothers
    PENIS.  "She smiled up at her mother and said he wet his pants
    again so I cut it off for you."  
    
    Children take literaly what we speak in jest.
    
    Dave

    hmm. this sounds like another one of those "urban myths".
    
    skeptically
    liz

    YOU MAY JEST "urban Myth" , I lived there when this happened.
    
    You Probably do not believe about the teen age babysitter, who
    came to sit with a young child.  The Parents went out to dinner,
    a movie and returned home about 11 pm.  The teenager had the
    table set up with china, crystal, and candles.  And dinner was
    Roasted Child..complete with Apple in the Mouth. 
    
    The Mother went insane and is in an assylum today.  The Father
    recovered, and the girl was treated and released.  
    
    URBAN MYTHS!  INDEED! get out into the world, there are strange
    things happening all over, and we can Ignore the TRUTH or accept
    things.
    
    Dave

    Let's return to using this note to discuss instances of sexism.
    
    
    Liz Augustine

    re.249
    I heard the same story while living in Boston and it was claimed
    to  have happened there, my brother heard it in Oakland California
    and you can believe this or not but I also heard it in Italy
    claiming that it happened in Milan..same revolting story revived
    as fillers..different places...
    (just my 2 cents worth)
    

    Heard on  NPR  the  other  night:  In a piece on the gender gap in
    American politics, various women were explaining their preferences
    for  Bush  or Dukakis. One woman said she wouldn't vote for either
    because  we  need  a woman president. The men have fouled it up so
    badly that only a woman can fix it (or some close approximation.)

    This worries  me  almost as much as sexism against women. I'm sure
    thera  are women who would make good presidents, but I don't think
    that  sex is a bona fide occupational qualification for president.

--David Wittenberg

The Scandinavian countries have a parlimentary system which blends party
and individual voting in a way that would bring joy to the heart of the
late Mayor Daley:  normally, you vote for your preferred party's slate
of candidates (pre-printed ballots are available).  Seats in the parliment
are then distributed according to the proportion of votes received.

However, you *actually* vote for a list of individual candidates, and you
are free to strike out anyone you choose, or add specific names.  The
seat distribution is then, in reality, given to the party member with
the most individual votes.

Parties often fill "unelectable" spots with newcomers, or names that
might tweak the interest of the voters.

In the mid-late 1970's, the Norwegian woman's movement launched a campaign
to "strike out all men" -- the voters still voted for their party, but
the ballot contained only the names of the women candidates.  The campaign
was successful enough to change the ordering of candidates within the
party, resulting in a number of "filler" (woman) candidates being elected.

Not that life changed in Norway as a result.  However, it should be noted
that they currently have a woman Prime Minister.

Martin.

Ps: voting is considered a civic duty in Scandinavia, and election turnout
runs well over 90%.  People who don't like any of the choices generally
vote a "white ballot" -- a blank piece of paper -- to show that they
care about voting, but dislike the alternatives.  About 10-15% of the
ballots are "blanked," but this is not emphasized in the election returns.

    
    The Massachusetts Revenue Dept.!!!!
    
    My legal name is Rita M. Tillson Vasak.
    
    My husband's legal name is Thomas F. Tillson Vasak.
    
    When I filed my 1986 Mass. Income tax, he had no income and was
    my dependant.  Last year he had income - about half as much as mine.
    Both years since we have been married, I filed our taxes with me
    as the primary filer; he was listed in the "Spouse" spot, "married,
    filing jointly".
    
    Both years, our refund check has arrived made out to:
    
    Thomas Vasak and RT Vasak!!!!
    
    ARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!  I was mad when it happend
    last year, and I'm mad that happened this year :-(
    
    Any thoughts on where it might be effective to send my complaints?
    
    Less_than_hopeful_about_getting_those_*$^%_tac_people_to_listen,
    Rita
    

    The IRS pulled something similar on me.
    
    I didn't change my name after we married -- I was Bonnie Randall
    and he was Neil Schutzman.  We filed our federal income tax
    jointly -- me as the main, him as the spouse.  
    
    They refused to process our return until I changed my name.
    I told them that wasn't legal.  They said, "So take us to court."
    
    I gave in.  Still wish I hadn't, but I couldn't afford a lawyer.
    In fact, couldn't afford to do without the refund.  Sigh.
    
    --bonnie

    Hi, Rita &Bonnie!
    The Mass. tax people have done the same thing to our return every
    year (of course, you don't usually get a refund from the state no
    matter what you do so it usually doesn't matter too much).  I do
    all our bookkeeping, and I do the taxes, so I put my name in as
    "taxpayer" and Paul's in as "spouse".  And every year, when they
    send me the forms for that year, the wondrous state tax people have
    reversed the names - so I never use the preprinted form.
    
    I could see this if the form had "husband" and "wife" instead of
    "taxpayer" and "spouse", but it doesn't.  It might even make sense
    to have "husband" and "wife" instead, if they really need to keep
    track of which marriage partner is which when the names involved
    might be sort of tricky, but I can't think of any good reason why
    they would need to do THAT, either, since we have a state Equal
    Rights amendment in this state ans should therefore have the same
    legal rights.
    
    Must be some bean-counter someplace who thinks that women can't
    add!  Or can't earn...

    re:.255
    
    It's too late now, I suppose, but you probably should've just
    refused to change your name. It wasn't your problem, after all,
    it was theirs. You did nothing illegal: you didn't commit fraud
    on your return, nor did you refrain from filing, nor does it say
    anything in the filing instructions that the wife has to have the
    same name as her husband. If they didn't want to accept your
    return, it's not your fault.
    
    I'm sure the courts would've loved it. Other than the judge being
    afraid of being audited if he decided against the IRS, I doubt
    there's a court in the country that would've gone in their favor.
    
    --- jerry

    When you don't have any money, you have to put up with some
    injustice.
    
    --bonnie

    
    The second violinist in my string quartet, a cute, charming woman,
    21 years old, announced she was going to wear a very pretty, rather 
    frilly pink dress for our recital. "Lauren [my spouse] won't like it",
    she added. "My goodness, why not?", I asked. "Because she thinks
    [emphasis added]
    WOMEN SHOULD BE EQUAL; NOT FEMININE"
    
    (needless to say, neither Lauren nor I think this)
    Aaarrrgghhh%**!%(!^#%(!#%(&!#%!#%&!%$#$!^@%!%
     

    The pamphlet recently sent to all households by the Federal Government
    on the topic of Aids pictured two people as having Aids - they were
    both women.

>    The pamphlet recently sent to all households by the Federal Government
>    on the topic of Aids pictured two people as having Aids - they were
>    both women.

Huh?  one would suspect that the homosexual population has already
gotten the message -- the pamphlet seems directed at heterosexuals and
closet bisexuals, both male and female, who may not have realized that
it isn't a gay men's disease.  As such, suggesting that "she could be
you, or your companion" seems quite reasonable.

Martin.