Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    re .0
    
    Because the attitudes of people in other states is not ready for such
    a modern system.  VT is still gun shy of a vastly controlled antlerless
    program.  The F&W dept. had approval by the F&W board (appointed
    officials) by a vote of 3-2 to approve somthing like 2,000 permits for
    the wholes state, and that was only for 2 DMU's.  But public pressure
    mounted and in the next Board meeting the earlier approval was voted
    down 4-1.  Everyone thinks they can manage the herd better than the
    biologists in VT.  People get too emotionally charged to look at
    supporting facts and their decisions get muttled.  It's discouraging.
    
    I would hope that the forward thinking of NH game management systems,
    floods across the border into VT.
    
    You have some very good points about reduced costs, I wonder if states
    that administer regular antlerless harvests have considered it.
    
    Kevin

    Here in Mass. successful applicants pay $5 for an antlerless permit,
    so the system is pretty much self-financing. Plus, the system is
    totally random, based on the last digit in the license number, so there
    are no cases where someone gets a permit every year, while out-of-
    staters get zip. (I *hate* that aspect of Vermont deer mgm't. Just MHO)

    
    
      Doctah,
    
      I dont mean this is raggin on you but I will have to disagree with
    you about every state proposing this system of doe hunting. take Pa for
    example if they made all the legal licensed hunter eligible for taking
    a doe in certain areas these areas would be flooded with hunters and a 
    masacre would occur.
    
       For example the GLADES state gamelands was opened for the first
    time ever last year during the 3 day doe season there were 5-600
    hunters on the land the first day (+ - 1000 acres) it was a terrible
    sight it was like a massive slaughter, 200-250 deer taken, they pushed
    the deer out onto the ice and as the game commission pushed the deer
    back out of the water people were standing there shooting the deer!
    now these people had to apply for a doe license, I would hate to
    imagine what the outcome would of been if every hunter could of went
    there.
    
         I will say NH has a good system, but as far as every state doing
    it that way may not be a good thing. each state needs to be managed
    differently. I think almost all states do a pretty good job of managing
    wildlife. The only thing I wish NH would of done earlier is buying land 
    for public gamelands.
    
                                    Just my .02 worth
                                              Lee
    

 What you fear happening in Pennsylvania (which has an immense deer herd) is
the same thing that opponents of the NH system claimed would happen. It
didn't, though. I dunno- with all the deer in Pennsylvania, you'd think that
there would be no need for the type of behavior you're describing. The people
I talk to that hunt PA tell me that hard part is deciding which one to take,
because they all look the same and aren't very big due to overpopulation. They
tell me they see 40-50 deer before they decide which one to shoot. 

 I realize that not every place can be managed the same way, but I think the 
herd mentality of hunters would be eased if everyone was allowed does for
a certain amount of time.

 And I agree with your comment about wishing NH had purchased more land sooner.
Me too.

 the Doctah

    
    Also, what is the hunter fatality rates of NH vs say VT where there
    is no either sex hunting???
    
    
    Fra
    

    Fra, you'd have to normalize those numbers so the same sample size is
    used.  
    
    Mark.

>    Also, what is the hunter fatality rates of NH vs say VT where there
>    is no either sex hunting???

 Hunter fatality? I think we lose about 1 per year or so. Sometimes 2. Dunno
how many hunters are in each state though.

    I hear ya mark, I just have my reservations about hunting where deer
    of either sex can be shot...  It's makes it much more difficult to
    make the monumental mistake of shooting someone when you have to 
    determine if the deer your aiming at has a 3" horn.  I've hunted with
    guys in NH that have shot deer and not found out till later that it was
    a buck.  Open it up to everyone to shoot either sex and your bound to
    have trigger happy guys causing more fatalities. IMHO
    
    Can you imagine Mass with an open season on does, even with a limited
    amount of days...  hell more than 50% of the deer are shot the 1st day,
    after that, i bet 70% of the guys won't hunt again.
    
    And to be truthful, i'm not all that enthusiastic about the way NH runs
    the archery season... theres guys in the field all camo'd up bowhunting
    during the rifle and muzzleloader seasons...  In my opinion NH's asking
    for trouble...  Unless of course thats been changed and bowhunters now
    have to wear some type of hunter orange...
    
    don't get me wrong i'd love to be able to get a crack at a doe or 2
    during the rifle season in VT, hell, i'd fill my tag every year in the
    first half hour... I don't know if allowing everyone to do it all at
    once is the way to go though...
    
    If it's that important to cull a few does in VT why don't they open up
    the muzzleloader season to include does???
    
    I don't know what VT's doing, but with all the bucks i've seen so far,
    i'm all for keeping it that way.
    
    FWIW,  Fra
    

    Instead of fatality, how bout just shooting related accidents during
    hunting season???
    
    If i'm way off base here, please let me know...
    
    Fra

    state of alabama has about the same rule of n.h. they have set dates
    for bucks only and either sex. we are allow one per day during buck
    season and two per day during buck and doe season. one must be a buck
    and the other a doe. 40 more days for the rifle season to open. 

    
    	Vermont recently introduced a law which PROHIBITS doe seasons from
    being set during the normal bucks-only firearms season.  This law
    came about as a result of a public input process regarding doe seasons
    in general.  When Vermont has a future doe season, you'll see permits
    issued for the December muzzleloading seasons only!!  If it's
    determined that there aren't enough does culled from a given DMU during
    a specific muzzleloading season, then the following year there may be
    a proposed doe season established for that DMU with limited permits
    issued.  That rifle/doe season would be set OUTSIDE the normal bucks
    only season.
    	The reasons for doing it this way are just what everyone in this
    file are talking about -safety, and shooting any deer and finding out it's
    a buck.  Also, it provides the muzzle-hunters an added challenge, which
    IMO is good and healthy.  Like FRA said, most anybody could go out and
    blast a baldie if they really wanted to.  
    	When Vermont had doe seasons in the past, there were lots of 
    abuses - mainly people party hunting (you know, it's the last weekend
    and six guys have ONE permit so anyone please shoot us a doe), and
    people taking multiple does on a tag.  I also believe it was determined
    that it would be easier to enforce with the new regs also.....
    we'll see -
    
    Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above points, thanks, Rob
    
    P.S. there will be no antlerless permits issued this year for VT.

> Open it up to everyone to shoot either sex and your bound to
>    have trigger happy guys causing more fatalities. 

 This has not been the case. The number of accidents (entered elsewhere in
this file) when normalized for the number of hunter-days in the respective
states show no obvious correlation. NH is a safe state to hunt- certainly on par
with the other New England states. Your worries are unfounded.

>I've hunted with
>    guys in NH that have shot deer and not found out till later that it was
>    a buck. 

 I've heard of guys who shoot at any deer, and if it happens to be a doe 
when they get to it they keep on walking. Is that any better?

>    And to be truthful, i'm not all that enthusiastic about the way NH runs
>    the archery season... theres guys in the field all camo'd up bowhunting
>    during the rifle and muzzleloader seasons... 

 Archery season starts months before rifle season. Archers have plenty of 
chances to get their deer before and after rifle season. Besides, I don't
see that that should make any difference- if you are sure of your target
it won't be a guy in camo. Ought we require hikers to wear orange during 
hunting season too?

>I don't know if allowing everyone to do it all at
>    once is the way to go though...

 You don't think Vt is big enough? I don't understand the complaint.

 The Doctah

    Doctah,
    
    I've bowhunted in NH the last 3 years and Rifle hunted there previous
    to that (due to less $$ and time, I can no longer justify spending the
    money to rifle hunt there, though I certainly would if I could), so I
    have nothing personally against the state or the way things are run,
    per-sae...
    
    As far as guys shooting does and leaving them to rot, your gonna find
    these scumbags everywhere regardless of what the either sex seasons
    are. I don't see the relavence of your comment regarding what I said.
    Am I missing something? 
    
    I have to believe that there are more accidents when either sex deer 
    can be shot, it's my opinion, nothing more or less,  Unless you can
    show me some hard facts to the contrary.  I'm not closing my eyes to
    this, i'm open minded and am willing to listen to anything you have to
    say.
    
    I firmly believe that if a person had to be sure a deer had 3" antlers
    before shooting, it's a safe bet what he thinks he's aiming at is a
    deer, not a person.  
    
    Now lets open it to either sex... any kind of
    animal legs could be assumed to be carrying a deer (buck or doe)...
    Am I right or wrong????  You gonna tell me there are people out
    there who don't have that mentality?  "it's brown... shoot!!"  or
    "that rustling in the bushes must be a deer" or (check this out, it's
    just a matter of time before we hear this next one) "your honor i
    thought it was a deer fighting when i heard it grunting and
    rattling behind the bushes"...  Hey it happened with a turkey hunter
    last year...
    
    Don't get me wrong this can happen anywhere regardless of either sex
    seasons, but the odds must certainly increase when you open it up to
    either sex.
    
    Regarding archers having almost two months to hunt before the rifle or
    muzzleloader seasons start....    Are you telling me that they
    arn't out there??? or that they should stay home??   fact is their
    there, and probably more so, now that they have the gun hunters really
    pushing the deer around...  (on that note, is there any info available
    to indicate which dates produced the most bowkills)  I may be wrong but
    i'm willing to bet it's during the rifle and muzzleloader seasons...
    
    I'm not ragging on NH...  just expressing my opinion...  while it works
    well for NH, I don't believe it's a feasible way to run every state, 
    least not in Mass...  when that day comes, i'll be home watching college 
    football.
    
    
    Fra

>    As far as guys shooting does and leaving them to rot, your gonna find
>    these scumbags everywhere regardless of what the either sex seasons
>    are. I don't see the relavence of your comment regarding what I said.
>    Am I missing something? 

 It goes directly to your comment about guys shooting "at a rustling in the 
bushes" or "a patch of brown." My belief is that the very same people who
would do that would be likely to shoot at the first deer they see and if it
doesn't happen to be a buck, so what, keep hunting. So whether the season
is any deer or only bucks is not going to make a difference to these
types of individuals.

>    I have to believe that there are more accidents when either sex deer 
>    can be shot, it's my opinion, nothing more or less,

 The numbers don't hold that belief up.

>    Regarding archers having almost two months to hunt before the rifle or
>    muzzleloader seasons start....    Are you telling me that they
>    arn't out there??? or that they should stay home??

 First of all, archers have plenty of time to hunt when there are no
firearms hunters in the woods. So no archer _has to_ hunt during firearms
season because of the state. I'm sure that some archers do hunt during rifle
season for the very reason that you state. I don't believe they should have to
stay home- that's a personal decision (as is wearing orange). All I'm saying 
is that nobody is forcing bow hunters to hunt in dangerous conditions. Let
me turn this around- what is different about the places whose bow hunting
seasons you approve of? Do they disallow bow hunting during the rifle
season? Do they force hunters to wear orange?

 The Doctah

 I have made provisions to acquire a copy of the NH hunting accident report for
1990. Could somebody get information on Vermont's, Maine's and/or Massachusetts'
accident stats?

    
    
    
    	I haven't even seen a deer over sights in .... well, yet.(Not
    counting sneaking up on them and taking pictures in July)
    
    	But, suposeyou see an animal-posed in a way that it looks like it
    has a rack, you take your time, look again, then shoot.
    	You find either no rack, or tines that are too small to be legal.
    
    
    
    	What is the penalty?  If it's 10 yrs. in jail... 
    
    	Is it a loss of that season?
    	Is it a fine.
    
    
    	Chuck.
    
    	(BTW, I plan on NOT shooting anything this year.  I won't be
    disapointed)

    
    Chuck,
    
    	I don't know if this applies to where you're at:
    
    		A friend of a friend bagged a spike bull
    	elk.  He had a cow tag.  I don't know the circumstances.
    	Nevertheless, it was a mistake.  He gutted it, threw it
    	in the back of his truck, and took it to a Colorado DOW
    	office.  They confiscated his spike, fined him $50, and
    	GAVE HIM HIS COW TAG/LICENSE BACK.  
    
    Clay  

    I have lived and hunted in NH for the past fives years and feel that
    the management system is one of the worst of all the states I have
    hunted, (RI, CONN, MA, PENN, MAINE, NH). The total 1990 harvest was at 
    .87 deer per square mile. Tell me again how this wonderful this system
    is!! Mass., BTW has the same size herd (50K) of deer as NH and is at least
    half the size.
    
     I would like to see a freeze put on hunting in NH for 3-5 years, in
    order to reestablish the herd. There is plenty of room and food for a
    much larger herd than we currently have. I of course would never vote for 
    this due to Bunny Huggers never allowing reinstatement of hunting
    privilages. But at a minimum doe permits should go thru a lottery.
    
    
    Brian

    
    the NH deer kill has also risen ever since putting the buck only 
    restrictions in, and is forcast to rise again this year.  I say
    they are doing a fine job and the herd is coming back. Leave it
    as it is. 
    
    --Bob
    

>Mass., BTW has the same size herd (50K) of deer

 I don't believe that NH's deer herd is yet at 50K. I read something the other 
day that said that the herd was rebuilding itself and that they projected a
herd of 48,000 within (I think) 3 years at which point the projected harvest
would be approximately 11,000 animals.

 FWIW- I received the information from the State of NH Fish and Game Dept.
Of course, I spaced the report, but I will put in the facts as I recall them.

 Last year there were a total of 10 accidents in the field out of 125,000
licenses sold (including stamps and special permits.) The accident rate was 
something like 7.95/100,000.

 of the 10 accidents, 1 was fatal. At least 3 were self inflicted. It seems to
me that if we are going to compare the impact of having an "any deer" season,
we have to compare only accidents during rifle season (in particular any deer
season.) I don't think there is a breakdown in the report as to whether the
accidents occurred during the any deer portion of rifle season, so I guess
we will have to lump all of the rifle accidents that were not self inflicted
into one category. I'll try to remember the report tonight; I suspect we are
talking about ~5 nonfatal accidents here.

 The Doctah

    
    	Just a small point.
    
    	MAny parts of Mass. are At or ABOVE the optimum carrying capacity
    	now.   My personal view is that it would be much better to have
    	the too much food for the herd that just enough-or too little.
    	After all, the idea of Game Management is to manage the population
    	so that it remains a healthy one, NOT to provide enough game for 
    	Every hunter that buys a license.  Hunting is a tool used by 
    	game managers, it is not their reason for employment.  
    
    	Just my opinion.

    I believe that your statement of a projected herd of 48k in three years
    is inaccurate. I will look up the documentation this evening and try to
    post it tommorrow.
    
     My comments around the same amount of deer as Mass was a
    generalization to compare populations and available acreage. Although
    I do believe that Mass. has done an outstanding job of reviving the
    deer herd. And is also taking the proper positions on downsizing where
    needed.
    
   In case you are unaware of who runs the Deer Management in NH it is the
    politicions not the Fish and Game Department. What other state has this
    kind of BS. 
    
    I enjoy hunting in NH, but truely believe that the state can double or
    triple the deer population with out any harm being done to landowners,
    crops etc. and there would still be plenty of habitat suitable for
    sustaing a deer population of this size. I also do not believe that
    this will allow a "deer for every hunter". 
    
    
    my .02
    Brian
    

    Deer herds numbers rise and fall as the seasons progress.  The peak
    being in mid to late spring and the low point being in mid to late
    winter. The number one cause of these changes is food, followed by
    disease, natural preditors and then man.  The ethical ideas around
    hunting put forth the idea that hunting culls the herd of those
    individuals that would otherwise die within the natural peak
    culling cycle.  That is to say that animals that are taken during 
    hunting season are those that would for the most part die within
    the harsh winter months.  Each deer that is taken lengthens the chances
    of another deer surviving the winter.
    
    Most first year doe give birth to one fawn the first time they are 
    pregnant.  This is followed by twins each successive year.  Most deer
    live no more that 2.75 years.  During the high period in the herd cycle
    the deer population doubles. During the low period where the natural
    cycle of death takes over the herd will shrink to app 50% of it's
    high cycle. During a difficult winter it is not unlikely that 87% of
    the deer within a yard will die.  Some field reports from VT in years
    past have counted as many as 1800 deer dead within a yard area. That's
    a lot of deer within a small area.
    
    There can be ample amounts of food available yet a deer will still
    starve to death.  This has been documented while investigating why
    deer continued to die when man tried to supply food during peak
    winter conditions.  Deer must train their digestive systems to accept
    changes within their food sources.  This is done by selectively
    adding a percentage of their daily food intake from what they
    expect will be their future mail food source.  In other words a deer
    will target a food source as a future source while it is feeding for
    the most part on something else.  It could be feeding on acorns
    for it's daily diet but will search out beech nuts and eat a small
    percentage of these in order to effect digestive changes within the
    animal so that as he acorns dwindle and the animal moves to the beech
    nuts the animals system can adjust.  This transition takes place over a
    two week period.  Anyone ever find within an apple orchard that some of
    the apples have a bite taken from then and the remainder of the apple
    is left?  this is the process in action.  Most deer will leave apples
    alone for the most part except to each a small percentage until a
    snow falls.  Then within one or two days they will concentrate on the
    apples eating every single one they can find.
    
    
    
    Tom

    Tom, 
    
    Regarding the apple theory...  Absolutely true... I'm seeing this first
    hand the last feew weeks...  Apples everywhere, but the deer are still
    hitting the meadows for the clover and grasses... and passing up the
    lesser nutricious apples for later... occasionally i'll come across a
    few apples partially eaten, but were seeing all our deer in meadows
    browsing.
    
    Fra

    Fra,
    
    	I noticed the same thing at camp this weekend in Vermont. Apples
    	were everywhere, but not a nibble on any.
    
    	Red

 I have the report in front of me.

 The report is divided into sections: shooter's age, equipment type, animal
hunted, contributing factors, hunting accident summary (1963-1990), lost
hunter summary (1976-1990), and a narrative that describes each accident (1990).

 In order to test your theory that "any deer" seasons contribute to a more
dangerous hunting environment, it would be best to examine only those
accidents which occurred during any deer season that happened because of
hunter misidentification of game. Unfortunately, the report does not give out
that level of detail (whether it was during "any deer" season.) What the report
does indicate is whether the accident occurred due to misidentification of
target and what animal was being hunted. So we can do a reasonable job even
if we allow that all such accidents occurred during any deer season (unlikely,
since some areas don't even have any deer season, and that in the places that 
do have it, it comprises a small fraction of the total season.)

 So out of the 10 accidents, we have the one fatal accident in which the hunter
shot at what he thought was a deer, and one non fatal accident where a 
participant in a deer drive shot at "a bobbing motion." 

 The other 8 are not germane to the discussion for the following reasons:

 3- self inflicted
 2- hunting something besides deer
 3- hunt was concluded when the accident occurred 
    a) two of these occurred during "unloading" of ammo
    b) one occurred when two brothers engaged in "horseplay" followed
       by an accidental discharge.

 That makes a total of two accidents last year that could possibly be caused
in part by "any deer" season. Seems to be pretty low to me. Is VT's,
MA's or ME's record substantially better?

 The Doctah

PS- Brian- please do enter more information when you find it!

    RE : .23/.24/.25
    
    I was always under the impression that deer will not eat apples until
    the frost had gotten to them a few times...  Once they have been frozen
    a couple of times they get sweeter and the deer enjoy them more.
    
    Anyway... That's what I was told.
    
                           Tom

    
    	RE: Fra, Red, 
    		When I saw the 4-pointer last week, he walked right by
    an apple tree without even stopping to sniff... There were apples
    everywhere.  The doe I shot was full of green stuff - grasses, ferns,
    MUSHROOMS bigtime, and some acorns.  Looks like quite a diversity, I 
    can't say you could plan any kinda hunt on what I found.  It does
    appear that they're starting to switch over to fall feeding though
    with the cold weather and all.  BTW, dressed weight on that doe in
    270 was 97#..  I guess I overestimated by a couple of pounds :')
    
    		Tenderloins tonight, I did my part this year for 
    		VT DMU F2.  This is MY kinda doe season.
    
    Sorry Doctah, I guess I'm sidetracked - Rob

 No problem! Hearing about successful hunters is more fun than discussing
the ins and outs of herd management and related safety issues. I hope I
can join you in a few weeks with a story of my own. :-)

    My impression was that deer will eat the most fattening foods
    available at this time of year. Acorns, corn, and the high-
    protein parts of grass and clover are all more fattening than
    apples, so... Of course, the 'conditioning' makes sense, too.
    Remember, deer are not graziers (strictly grass diet) but browsers,
    capable of eating a much wider range of foods. They will almost
    always concentrate on what is most tender/nutritious at the
    moment. 
    
    (We have a pine thicket behind our camp. At a certain time each 
    year the deer will move in and devour mushrooms, then leave
    again. Great if your timing is right ;-) )
    
    dana
    

    Doctah,
    
      I stand corrected, the picture is bleaker than I thought the 91' herd
    is projected to be at 41,000 , the lowest since 1982. I have a call in
    the the NH F&G to provide me the stats for the last 10 years ( Don't
    think I can locate all of my old rags and harvest reports). This number
    equates to 4.4 deer per square mile. Harvest was at 0.87 for 1990. 
    
     I still feel that this number is to low and am fully aware of all 
    (most) of the requirements needed to sustain a herd and believe NH
    can support double this number.
    
     If we look at the Mass #'s the population went from 5000 in '68 to 
    52,000 in 90. I fully believe that this type of anterless system would be
    effective in NH providing a much more enjoyable hunt as well as
    allowing year round viewing of deer.
    
    Guy Pappalardo went to the SUPERBUCKS clinic in August and one of the 
    questions he asked the "big boys" was why don't they hunt NE, ya know
    the answer.... Because there aren't enough deer! 
    
    Brian
                              

 I agree that NH can support more deer. The problem with NH deer is that
they are concentrated in the extreme southern and extreme northern parts
of the state; the middle of the state is underpopulated. Of course, this
is why WMUs B,C,D,E,F and G have NO antlerless season at all (rifles).

 At the other extreme are areas L & M, which have 10 days of any deer hunting.
These areas, due primarily to development, are nearing the upper limit of
deer they can easily support. Looking at the map, it appears that roughly
half the state has substantially fewer deer than they can support. But since 
there is no rifle season for taking does in those areas (and hasn't been),
the antlerless deer system in NH cannot be accurately blamed.

 The Doctah

 PS- I'd appreciate it if you could send me a copy of that report when 
you get it.

    Doctah,
    
    	What does the distribution of turkey look like within NH?  From
    your last note I wonder if a naturl process is underway in the central
    portion of NH.  If the population of turkey is up and the area is
    heavily forested then it's natures doing as apposed to man's.  Turkey
    and deer compete for the same food sources.  If the area is heavily
    forested this brings the advantage to the turkey's side.  If farmland
    with open spaces and intermixed with forest it brings the advantage to
    the deer population.
    
    
    Tom  

    Doctah, you owe yourself at least one early morning in the spring
    listening for the gobble of a big tom, then calling him in. Gets
    the old ticker pumping, let me tell ya. And the fish'll be there
    tomorrow.

 You think I haven't thought about it? :-) If it were up to me, I do nothing
BUT hunting and fishing.:-) Tragically, I have a family and creditors. :-)

 

    
    Here's the N.H. stats by county for deer taken in the 1990 season.
    
    
    COUNTY     BUCKS         DOE      TOTAL       KILL PER SQ. MILE
    ==========================================================================
    BELKNAP    283           103       386            0.96
    CARROLL    438           196       634            0.68
    CHESHIRE   591           265       856            1.19
    COOS       705           335      1040            0.57
    GRAFTON    580           102       682            0.40
    HILLSBORO  540           318       858            0.96
    MERRIMACK  610           338       948            1.02
    ROCKINGHAM 724           607      1331            1.93
    STRAFFORD  400           261       661            1.75
    SULLIVAN   302           174       476            0.89
    
    TOTAL###  5173          2699      7872            0.87
    
    
    BTW:: Apples are not a natural deer food. Thou deer like them, they
    usally don't start to eat them until the colder months when frost sets
    in and less and less natural food is found. A deer will eat it self out
    of food and then for some unknown reason turn to bark...usally from
    hemlock which has no value....if they would eat the maple they would
    be better off, but for some reason they won't touch it.
    
    So, as for apples it's not because they taste better or they're saving
    them. It's pure instinct to eat the perferred natural food first.
    
    BTW: anyone hunting N.H. want to know the stats of last year for the
    specific town you hunt, send me a vaxmail and I'll give you the info.
    
    See ya,
    
    Rick
    

    
    re .37
    
    Rick,
    
    You spoke of "natural foods" it sounded as if apples weren't considered
    natural, I'm sure that's not what yo meant.  
    
    From my understanding, reading, scouting, etc., the deer will be in the 
    foods high in protein/fat, i.e. acorns, beechnuts,corn, etc. in the fall, 
    as they prepare for the upcoming winter.  Why get into the apples when 
    other foods prepare them better for what's ahead...I guess deer can't be 
    considered junk food junkies as us humans can.  Mother nature is wonderful 
    at communicating needs vs. wants in the wild.  
    
    I have had a hard time locating the usual numbers of deer in VT this
    year, they are so spread out...food is very abudant.  I have seen some
    deer, but not in the numbers or consistency that I usually see them
    during October bow season.  I have all but given up on hunting the
    apples, I'm off to find some areas where they're hitting the oaks...
    
    Good luck...
    
    Kevin                                     

    
    That's what I said. Apples are not a natural food for deer. Oh, they
    adore them, but like I said, they will exaust their natuarl food source
    first, then later, colder heavy frost like weather when the greens
    start to fade, the browse is tipped off from over browse they'll start
    hitting the apples. Ofcourse as we all know , the whitetail is
    un-predictable, but yes, this time of year they'll hit the acorns.
    
    Remember when the acorn crop was way down???? I do, I found the deer
    in the cuts (logging operation areas) and they were hitting the apples
    earlier as well. Remember?
    
    Come mid to late November---they'll be in the apples. Until then, it's
    the oak ridge in the a.m. and p.m and the thickest swamps,hemlock
    groves...in mid-day still hunting.
    
    Rick