Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    For what it's worth, I've owned both the German Shorthair and an
    English Setter. The shorthair was very hyper indoors and in the wagon
    did hunt well, but couldn't compare to the English Setter, for the 
    setter would hunt the full day and I was never skunked, even tho
    he had not hunted before I got him at 2years old, he'd even put 
    pheasant up after several hunting breeds had gone thru the area
    before him. I honestly think you missing out when exclude the 
    English Setter. Dogs I've hunted with include Labs(Choc,Yellow
    & Black, Kerry Blue Terrier, Irish setter, Brittany and Springer
    Spaniels and German shorthair and having been a gamewarden in
    Mass. for 7 1/2years I've had a chance to see most breeds in 
    action, of All my vote is for the English setter, their instinct
    for pheasant and woodcock, is in My opinion the best of all the
    breeds. That's my opinion for what it's worth. Good Luck!
    The Warden (mike)
     
    

    Scott, I'm a little confused about what you are really looking for
    here.  If I read your note correctly, you are not interested in
    ANY of the breeds you are familiar with, only those you are not
    familiar with.  You ruled out a very long list of good breeds that
    should cover most anyones hunting needs.  Why did you rule them
    out?  I hope you are not searching for some mythical perfect gundog.
    Every breed (and individual) will have a few shortcomings.
    
    Mark,
    

    RE:.2
    
     "....hope you are not searching for some mythical perfect gundog."
    
    If he were, then he wouldn't have discounted the Lab.
    
    Jeff

    Good point Jeff!  
    
    Mark,
    

    Well, I don't want to make anyone mad about the breeds I've discounted.
    I just finished saying this offline through VAXmail to another noter.
    So, please just take this a one persons opinion.  
    
    Labs, The other half dislikes Labs.  Seems see has run into a few mean
          ones in her day.  And this lady adores dogs.
    
    English, too spaz and uncontrollable.  Unbelievable noses but don't
             like the unruliness.
    
    Setters, mainly the hair (I know, cop out).  I could be swayed into 
             an English but love the look of the Gordon.  Really don't
             like Irish.  Pop-in-law had one, same description as English
             pointer.
    
    I guess my intent is to find out more about the breeds I have never
    hunted behind as well as find out more from real hunter about those
    breeds.  As I said in my base note the only experience with the
    remaining dogs has been at a very large show in Chicago.  These dogs
    are used for their looks and not what they are meant to really do.
    I have only talked to two people at the show who's dogs actually
    hunt.  And the converstation was with the hunters wife, who couldn't
    answer technical type questions except the standard of the breed.
    
    Thanks for the input thus far and I hope I didn't offend anyone by
    "ruling" out their breed.
    
    Maybe an ex-hick from Iowa's opinion can be changed.
    
    

    No offense taken.  On *rare* occassions Jeff and I have been known
    to speak up about our labs :-)
    
    From your previous reply, I'm not sure how many setters you've seen.
    Be careful about judging a breed by one individual, because it may
    not be representative. - As a kid I had a basset hound.  Everything I
    had read said how lazy and docile they were.  Well, this one turned out
    to be the most hyper dog I have ever seen, let alone owned....
    
    I could be wrong, but I don't recall anyone in this notes file using
    visla or weimerners in any of our other "best dog" type discussions.
    These are not real popular hunting dogs.  Even if you decide that's
    what you want, you may have a tough time locating a suitable dog
    in your area.
    
    Some other breeds you didn't rule out or consider: Golden retriever or
    springer spanils if you'd consider a flushing dog, or a britney(sp?)
    if you prefer a pointer.
    
    Mark,
    

     >On *rare* occassions Jeff and I have been known to speak up about our 
     > labs :-)
    
    not "rare" enough.

    
    You've said your interest lies in a dog from the pointing breeds,
    and for whatever reason you've already discounted some of the breeds. 
    That is a major first step. 
    
    I'm biased toward the shorthairs simply because I now own two,
    and am very impressed with what I have seen in these dogs do 
    in the past four years !!! But, I'm reading into your base note
    and our off-line messages that you've had enough exposure to the
    German Wire/Shorthairs to have already made an opinion and are 
    looking for some more info on the Vizsla and Weimaraner before 
    discounting them. 
    
    I have seen a number of Vizslas at the AKC Hunt Tests I've run in
    over the past couple years, not yet seen a Weimaraner. I made a
    couple of suggestions in MAIL that I'll make again here for the 
    benefit of anyone who might be in a similar situation now or in
    the future.... 
    
    Watch your local newspapers for possible listings of upcoming field
    events. AKC Field Trials, AKC Hunt Tests, NSTRA events, or NAVHDA
    events. These events would pose excellent opportunities to watch
    the dogs work, and to talk with owners/handlers/breeders about their
    dogs. 
    
    If the paper doesn't yield any local events, try calling the groups
    I mentioned above at their national offices. I unfortunatrely don't
    have a GUN DOG magazine with me right now, so maybe someone else
    could help out with the phone numbers for the national office of
    NAVHDA (North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association) or NSTRA
    (National Shoot to Retrieve Association (did I get right Jeff ?)).
    The AKC main number is 212-696-8200, ask for Club Information, and
    then ask that office for a list of breed (Vizsla or Weimaraner)
    clubs in Illinios. Call the contact person the AKC gives you, and
    ask them if the club will be sponsoring any field events in the near
    future.
    
    A word of warning.... don't expect a pointing dog to be a 'super'
    hunter until its third or fourth season... it takes time, effort,
    and alot of birds to fully mature a pointing (if not any other)
    dog. These dogs posess the natural instinct to locate and point
    birds. Steadiness to wing and shot, or obedience to a handler's 
    commands is something which must be trained. Most people aren't 
    willing and/or prepared to put the necessary time into this effort
    and then complain about the dog being wild or unruly. 
    You will only get back what you put in.
    
    Most of all, HAVE FUN !!!!!
    
    P.S. I think you're making a big mistake discounting Britts and
         especially English Setters. My friends who own them simply
         give them a haircut at the beginning of the hunting season.
     
	Best of luck... and have 

    Dave,
    
    You had mentioned GUN DOG magazine in your reply.  I have never seen
    this magazine before.  Could you send me some information regarding
    how to subscribe to this?  
    
    I realize that actually finding the breed and the actual dog is only
    a small part of the battle.  Investing the time with the dog is
    of great importance.  I have been with a couple of dogs that have 
    really not been trained and practiced much and the results show.
    
    Side note:  I was discussing this note with the other half last night
                and it seems if her uncle breeds his Chocolate she may
                consider getting of her pups.  Apparently she realized
                how good this dog is from a non-hunter's point of view.
                And I know how good the dog is in the field.
    
    Decisions, Descisions.
    
    Thanks so far,
    
    Scott  :-`
    

    Scott, as a Lab. owner; or is it owned by a Lab.;  I have had
    oppertunity to not only hunt behind "Majic" my dog, but also Brits.,
    G. Shorthairs, Springers, Etc., Etc.,.  But, one of the best hunting
    expierences/oppertunities that I have had to this date, was to hunt
    behind a DrahtHaar, or more commonly known as the German Wirehair.
    
    This pup was ABSOLUTELY PHENOMENAL, there were 2 Brits., and a
    Shorthair in the field at the same time; And watching this pup hunt,	
    point and retrieve was a real breath of fresh air.  I really can't
    describe the intensity this little guy should, especially for being
    only 14 months old.  I do LOVE my labs.,  they are so....Well, so 
    Labish?  But, from what I've seen(only one dog) my next MAJOR
    investment as far as dogs will be a DrahtHaar;  And I already have a
    kennel that I have talked with.  
    
    I not saying that you should get this breed or that, for that is your
    decision;  Just a little personal insight...
    
    Jeff...
    

    RE .7, Brett, since you've recently discovered the duck hunting
    around you maybe it's time you got a lab and joined us :-)
    
    Mark,
    

    re: .9, Scott you definitely want to subscribe to GUNDOG if you are
    getting or even considering a gundog of your own.  It's published
    every other month by Stover Publishers.  They also publish WILDFOWL
    (which I also love) and WING and SHOT.  For your hunting you may also
    want wing and shot.  If you check the replies to note 200 here, you'll
    see a lot of agreement on these magazines.
    
    You can subscribe by calling 1-800-767-4868.
    
    Mark,
    

    
    	The GUN DOG calender is pretty nice too !!! It's hanging
    	right over my tube here. Nice Brittany pup this month :-)
    
    dave

       I subscribed to Gun Dog Mag. about a month ago. Can anyone who gets
    it now tell me when the next issue is due out!

    Gun Dog Calendar - where do you think I got the number!  It's
    hanging on my cubicle wall too!
    
    I'm not sure when the next issue is due out.  I get Wildfowl as well
    and can't keep track of when which one comes.
    
    Mark,
    

    Words from the readers only club.
    	I have a female Viszla. She is now eight years old. Her specialty
    is quail, at which she works extremely well. Since moving from Oklahoma
    to Colorado she has become pretty good on pheasant. I have also used
    Copper for retrieving ducks and dove. Good luck finding very many
    people with working experience of Viszlas or Wiemers as they are not
    that widely known.          
    
    Ray

    This might go in the "dog" notesfile, but here goes.  First off, I
    don't have a dog YET, but I'm planning on getting one in the near
    future.  I want a lab since they're smart dogs (at least that's what 
    I've heard from a lot of people) and my cousin has two that he breeds
    so I'll get a good price ;^).  The dog would be mainly a pet but I
    would hunt him of possible.  The only hunting that I do, though, where
    I'd possibly need a dog is dove hunting.
    
    Now the question:  can you teach a lab to retrieve doves?  I've seen
    in Outdoor Life and other magazines where you can get scents to train
    your dog, but they always have pheasant or duck or whatever - no dove.
    
    Is it possible?  IS it any harder than teaching them to retrieve 
    anything else?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Scott
    

    re: .17
    
    	Go for it !!! It shouldn't matter what you want it to retrieve. 
    	Once it has been trained to retrieve, doves, pheasant, waterfowl
    	shouldn't much matter to the dog.
    
	

 Anybody know anything about Field Spaniels?

    re: .19
    
    	Only that they appear to be quite rare...
    
    		only 2 litters, 11 dogs registered with the AKC
    	as of September 1990.
    

     I agree that labs are the smartest of all dogs :^)!!! My 
    labs have retrieved waterfowl, pheasants, quail, dove and pigeons.
    The only thing they refused to pick up were crows and magpies.
    With doves though, be kind to your dog and wipe the feathers
    out of their mouth after the retieve. Doves have very loose
    feathers and tend to come out easily and stick to thier tongue
    and all. Failure to do this may result in your dog refusing or
    being hesitant to pick them up in the future.
    
    chuck   
    

I have video of a lab who would point and was steady
to wing and shot.  She picked this up by being run with
assorted Brittanys and Setters as the retreiver, and
kinda picked it up on her own.

I agree with the NAVHDA note - they're the people
 for the versatile breeds.

               I received my first copy of Gun Dog Mag. along with my
    calendar the other day. In the mag. there some books and videos for
    sale but the video on Training the Pointer is $50+. Does anyone have
    a copy of this or something similar they could make a copy of that I
    could buy from them? The mag. seems to be well put together and covers
    all areas of training issues, pointers, and Retrievers.

>    		only 2 litters, 11 dogs registered with the AKC
>    	as of September 1990.

 Yeah, and my buddy is picking one up tomorrow. He says there are only two
breeders in the US; one in Rhode Island and one in (I thnk) Colorado.

 I'm wondering if this puppy will make a good hunting dog...

 The Doctah

    
    	This bimonthly issue of GUN DOG is almost exclusively
    devoted to puppies !!! Picking a pup, feeding, care, etc....
    
    dave

    
    In the March issue of Massachusetts Wildlife, there was an 
    article on the American Hunting Dog Club. I called one of 
    the folks mentioned as a contact and he sent me some additional
    information....
    
    	The club seems to follow some of the basic NAVHDA principles
    of training but have expanded their breed training to not be 
    limited to pointing (continental) breeds. I thought their training
    philosophies were very sound and made alot of practical sense.
    
    	This club sponsors numerous training clinics at two locations
    in Ct.; Thompson Dam and Mansfield Hollow. These training clinics
    sounded as though they were geared to dogs of all ages and abilities.
    The club members volunteer to help out (each other) doing different
    tasks (throwing dummies, assisting on a training table, etc..) at
    the clinics. If you've ever trained a dog, you know that help like
    this is so beneficial.

    The cost of the clinics (I think I have this right) is $5 for the 
    first one you attend, and then I believe it was $10 for non-members
    and $5 for members for additional clinics. The membership fee is $30, 
    a small price to pay for the return.

    The gentleman I spoke with was Mark Provencher Spencer, Ma 508-885-3498.

    If anyone is interested, I can photocopy the article and pass it
    along. OR... I think you can get copies of the Mass Wildlife magazine
    at the F & W Field Hdqrtrs in Westboro.
    


                Training Clinics / Events   1991

    March 24                   Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    April 7                    Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    April 21                   Clinic              Thompson Dam ( Area A )

    May 5                      Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    May 18 & 19                Test                Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    June 9                     Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    June 23                    Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    July 14                    Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    August 11                  Clinic              Mansfield Hollow, Ct

    August 25                  Clinic              Thompson Dam ( Area C )

    Sept  7 & 8                Test                Pennsylvania


        For membership information:

            Mr. Jeff Waldron
            13 Walnut St Extension
            Seymour, Ct 06483

        I am looking for a good hunting dog (pup) this summer that I can
    start to train for next year. I like Labs, not quite sure if this is
    what I need. I duck, phesant and partridge hunt and would like to get a
    dog that can point and retrive pheasant and partridge and just retrive
    duck. Can anyone out there give me some information on the best dog and
    a kennel that I might be able to contact.Thanks in advance
    
    Bob

    
    
       If you're looking for opinions on the best dogs BOY did you come to
    the right place!
    
      I have a new Lab pup (mainly for ducks) and the guy I bought him from
    says the pups sire pointed pheasents.  If you are really looking for a
    pointer that can retireve ducks you may want to look at german
    shorthairs though.
    
    
    Chuck

    
    Re: .27
    
   >>I duck, phesant and partridge hunt and would like to get a
   >> dog that can point and retrive pheasant and partridge and just retrive
   >> duck. 
    
    Bob, You just described the qualities and traditional uses of the 
    	 German Shorthaired Pointer OR German Wirehair Pointer !!!
	     
   >> Can anyone out there give me some information on the best dog and
   >> a kennel that I might be able to contact.

    	I know of two GSP litters in Mass., one with pups availbale NOW, 
    	and one that might have puppies unspoken for. I also know of a person
    	looking to place pick-of-the-litter (bitch) to a hunting (Hunt
        Test/NAVHDA interest) home.
    
    	I also might be able to point you in the direction of some wirehair
    	folks in New England.
    
    	Send me mail or call if you're interested.  
    
    	Dave Nelson 237-2165  SHR

    From your note I wasn't sure if "pointing" pheasants was that important
    to you or if you just want to be able to hunt them.  A retrieve will
    do fine hunting pheasants (as a flushing dog).  Though my lab has
    pointed pheasants, you shouldn't expect a retriever to consistently
    point.  If pointing is important to you, I'd go with the GSP
    suggestion.
    
    Mark,

    I got a question and hopefully can get an answer here. I have a five
    year old English Springer Spaniel. I trained her and hunted her only
    one year, back when she was two. She hasn't heard a gun since nor hunted.

    At 5 years old, can I get her into hunting shape ? She's gotten real
    soft and overweight. She's a great family pet, but I wasn't sure if I
    should bother with her or look into getting a new pup.

    Jim

    If she is in good shape, even though overweight, she can be
    conditioned. It may make you get in shape too  :^), as you will have to
    make her run with you. Now if she were a retriever you could just hit a
    9 iron, and have your dog go fetch it!!!  (thats what my brother does)
    
    You have all summer, take it slow and she will love it.
    
    Don

RE: <<< Note 918.31 by 28300::RICHARDJ "Pretty Good At Barely Getting By" >>>

  > At 5 years old, can I get her into hunting shape ? She's gotten real
  >  soft and overweight. She's a great family pet, but I wasn't sure if I
  >  should bother with her or look into getting a new pup.


 I wouldn't worry about getting a new pup.

 If you change her food to one of the "maintenance diet" types with a once a 
day feeding and get her out running a few times a week she should slim down 
just fine. 

 A Springer owns me too, :-) and I found that after she was spayed it was 
real tough to keep the weight off unless she is fed the maintenance diet food. 

 Second hardest thing to do was get the wife and kid to quit feeding her 
table scraps.. :-)

I feed her Pro Plan maintenance diet until about 1 month before bird season 
opens then the Pro Plan hi protien diet during hunting season. She stays 
right around 45 to 50 lbs and always has *plenty* of energy. 

 Mine will be 5 this August.


  

    RE:33

    I've got her on Cycle Lite food. She only gets 2 cups per day. However,
    she is spoiled rotten and gets cookies and scraps throughout the day.
    She gives you that sad abused puppy look whenever you refuse to give
    her a treat. I must confess, I break myself.

    She goes into training this evening. I'll work her with the tennis ball
    to get her started on retrieving. She's always been a good retriever.
    She just needs some conditioning and work on live birds. I'll wait til
    August to get her on some pigeons and I'll pick up a pheasant from a
    guy I know that raises them. 

    Best news is that my brother is moving back to my area in August. I'll
    have my hunting partner back.

     Jim