Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Caliber:  .270
    Action:   Bolt
    Make:     Browning
    Model:    Medallion
    stock:    wood, oil finish
    scope:    2.5 to 7  Leupold

    My rule of thumb is anything that has enough power to kill reliable anf
    effectively in the ranges you are talking about. I wouldn't want to
    count on a 30/30 at 200 yds but just about anything from .243 on up
    should do the job. As long as the weapon and you get along well, I
    don't think the action matters much. If you shoot factory ammo, stuck
    cases are virtually never a problem, and any action style will deliver
    the accuracy you need for work out to 200 yds. I use a Marlin Lever
    with a 2x scope in  .356 Win. which is one of the newer cartridges
    based on the .308 case. It shoot 4 inch groups at 200 yds. And It took
    out an Elk in Colo at 250 yds, 3 years ago when My bolt action Ruger 
    300 mag. snapped a scope mount.

    ok, havn't read any replys yet, so i don't know what you think is the
    best, but here goes....
    
    limited range 75 and under... occasional 200 yarder  any caliber will
    do 243,6mm,270,280,308, etc... would not want to be taking 200 yard
    shots with a 30-30 however, so that rules that out.
    
    limited range 75 and under, go with a variable 2x7 or 1.5x5 
    3x9 would be wasted...
    
    brushy, dense foliage, chance for does or buck only?
    dense/brush does, gotta go with an autogettum  Browning BAR or REM
    Model 4, unless you'll be hunting in really cold weather, then i'd opt
    for the pump versions.
    
    my personal choice for caliber is....   aww you all know already  .270
    depending on how thick it is though, and the hunter population, i might
    opt for something with a little more knockdown power....  like a .300
    H&H, but i havn't lost anything yet with the .270
    
    theres alot of variables to consider, but a pump action 270 with a
    1.5x5 would be good medicine for most conditions you might encounter.
    
    FWIW,  Fra

    
    Personal preference:  45/70 Marlin, lever, w/3*9*40 scope. If hunting
    is limited to no more that 150 yards.  Bullet drop is too much to copy
    with beyond that, depending of course on how one zeros in their scope (
    for how many yards).  I'm currently looking for a clean used one. 
    Given the possibility of going out to 200 yards, it would have to be a
    30-06, of course for sure knock down the .444 marlin does shot somewhat
    flatter than the 45/70, but I already own the 30-06.  
    
    I prefer to go for knock down, as opposed to velocity in a bullet, and
    besides this was the best excuse I could come up with when my
    questioned me about wanting a 'close in' hunting rifle.
    
    Over all for the  variance in parameters you have provided, it would
    have to be the 30-06.
    
    Leonard
     

     re:.4
     I'll second the .45-70 for knockdown power, especially if you do your
    own reloads. With the fear of having customers putting new factory
    stuff into the old rifles, the factory loads are pretty wimpy.
     Between my father and I, who have taken 6 deer between us with the
    .45-70, they ALL went down, and STAYED down.
     I'd limit myself to 150 yds or less with open or peep sights. 200 yds
    shouldn't be a problem with a scope if you practice enough and know the
    limitations of the rifle/ammo/yourself.
    
    Bob

    
    The 45/70 has my respects. I carry .444 which by the way has more knock
    down than the 45/70.
    
    Rick.
    
    

    
    ref .6 please elaborate on this topic, in the balistic's guide by
    winchester, if memory is not failing me (first thing to go), the
    trajectory is flatter, but the energy transfer was less?  The basic
    reason I thought at the time was because of the bullet (slug) weight
    difference.  I'll recheck these figures tonight.  
    
    Leonard
    

    Re: Deer rifle
    
    	Oh my Jeff, this will probably turn into the largest and most
    heated discussion in the conference.
    
    	For hunting N.E. woods I'd go with the Marlin 444. If I had
    to settle for one rifle to cover both N.E and possible long range
    shooting ( 200 + yrds. ), I'd go with a Remington Mountain rifle
    in .280 Remington.
    
    	Just my choise.
    
    	BTW: Jeff, did you get the info on Ga. I sent you way ?
    
    	Red

Valmet 412S double rifle in 30-06 scoped with a Scmidt und Bender 1.5x14

For bigger game switch the barrels for the 9.3x74R and the scope to a SuB 8x56

For things with feathers switch to a double 12 gauge set, and for rough shooting
use a 12 gauge over .243 barrel set.

Of course it helps to have a rich uncle :-)  [its about $4000 worth]

/. Ian .\

    Red,
    
      Thnaks for the info.  I recieved it this AM.  Definitely some nice
    deer taken down there.  Are you settled yet as to when your moving?
    
    Jeff
    
    ps
     I'll "unveil" my choice for a gun after lunch.

    RE: 6
     Your reply on the .444's superior knockdown power vs. the .45-70 got
    me to thinking about how to define "knockdown power".
     I've never had any experience with the .444, and decided to have a
    quick looksee at a reloading manual for bullet weight selection, muzzle
    velocities, etc. In the Speer manual, all I could find were 240 grain
    jacketed flat noses and jacketed hollow points. Does anyone offer
    heavier bullets for the .444?
     I made a random selection of two powders recommended in the speer
    manual, and came up with the following: Using a 240 gr JFN and 57 gr of
    IMR 4064, the .444 will produce a muzzle velocity of 2178 fps. The
    .45-70, using a 400 gr jfn behind 64 gr of IMR 4064 produces a muzzle
    velocity of 2178 fps. Granted, the lighter bullet of the .444 will have 
    a flatter trajectory and retain a higher velocity downrange.
     So how do we go about calculating "knockdown power"? velocity x mass?
    Should we throw in something about ballistic coefficients of the
    different bullets? Distance would probably also need to play a part as
    well.
     Sure looks like a rat hole to me, but since hunting season is still a
    bit off, what else do we have to do?
     It just "seems to me" that the knockdown power between the two
    calibers based on the loads above, would be like getting hit by a Ford
    escort at 50 MPH (.444) versus a Chevy impala doing 45 .45-70).
    I wouldn't want either, but if I HAD to choose, I'd pick the escort.
    
    Bob 
    either, but if I had a choi

    My .308 does just fine.  I've dropped 2 deer with it and they
    *dropped*.....dead.  I like this caliber plenty.
    
    Other rounds that seem fine to me are:
    	
    				 .30-06
                                 .300 (WM or Win) and load them down
    				 .270
    				 .280
    				 .257
    
    I'd pick one of these personally because they are adequate and
    brass/bullets shoulod be easy to find.
    
    I like .308 best because my current favorite deer rifle is my HK 770.
    If my HK 770 were in .270 or .30-06, then that would be my caliber of
    choice ;-)
    
    /brett

    	Your 30-06 is the best all around cartride.   A good average 
    is 165 grain bullet.  If your heavy woods hunter 180 grain will do.
    Not to many shots over 100 yards in the woods.
    
    
    				Dave  

    I don't own this rifle but someday would like to. Ruger makes a
    bolt action M77 in 2 barrell lengths in a .308. One is 18 inches
    and the other is 20 inches. Both are light weight rifles. I would
    think that a rifle such as this and in .308 would more than handle
    just about anything up to 200 yds. and quite possibly up to 250
    yds. with ease. I have a Winchester Model 70 in 30/06 that does
    the job quite well for me. As for a scope I would either go with
    a Redfield 2X7 or Leupold 2.5X8.
    							Bret

    
    I reload my own using 265gr heads. Powder is secret. Knock down at
    muzzle is 3000pounds.
    
    Ive been using the .444 since 1969...
    
    I'll bring in my loads and post it all for ya.
    
    
    Rick
    

    Re. 10
    
    	Jeff,
    
    		Their still sitting and have not made the offer. The
    manager I interviewed with was on vacation last week and this
    week.
    
    
    	Red

    RE .0 & .1 I'd look at the Micro-Medallion by Browning, in
    7-08 Remington or its parent, the .308 Win. A bit lighter 
    than the full-size gun, plenty of power to 300 yards with
    either round. (And the gun is *beeyootiful*! - guess what my
    next toy is likely to be :-) )
    
    Go with a 1.5-6 or 2-7 scope, low power for fast shots in brush,
    higher power for the long ranges.
    
    Dana (short-action 7-08 fan)

    
    ref. 15,  Isn't that kinda of pushing the hardware a little, memory?,
    seems it running couple of hundred foot pounds heavier that factory
    load?? Just curious.
    
    ref. 11,  Agree, since there is minamal (so to speak) difference in
    bullet diameter, weight plays an important factor in both shock and
    knock down.  When a bullet hits the target, its initial impact is what 
    is reported as foot pounds of energy.  Question is what about target 
    penatration and effect?  As you stated the difference in the chey and the
    escort, the ideal bullet heavier would tend to drive the target harder
    having the greater potential for downing power.  Kinda like sugar ray
    leonard trading punches with mark tyson (or buster).  Both are very
    impressive, but which one delivers the more driving punch?  Comments? 
    
    Red,
    
    Have not forgotten the hunting regulation book, should have it out by
    the end of this week.
    
    
    Leonard
    

    To be scientifically accurate, the Ft/lb ratings are a result of a
    simple calculation. They indicate the amount of POTENTIAL energy STORED
    in a bullet and as such are of limited value in evaluating "knock down"
    power. In order to knock something down you have to transfer the energy
    stored in your fist to that person's face. The same is true of bullets.
    You can have all the stored ft/lbs of energy you want but if only 10%
    of that power is transfered to the target it is WASTED energy. That's
    why there are so many fans of the 444 and 45/70. On paper they stink.
    In reality those big flat headed bullet with all the exposed lead
    transfer the maximum amount of energy to the target. Case in point,
    I was hunting in Texas about 8 years ago and sharing a tree bilnd with
    a friend armed with a 7mm Mag. He shot his deer at about 120 yds right
    through the rib cage. that dear acted as if nothing had happened,
    continued to graze out of sight. We found him 300 yds from where he was
    shot. The "autopsy" told the whole story. The round left a wound
    channel more closely related to an arrow than a hi powered rifle. The
    bullet passed between ribs at entry. Those ultra hi speed bullets with
    their thick jackets and spire points were moving so fast that unless
    they hit bone at the entry point, often don't expand much as they pass
    thru soft tissue like lungs. On the other hand, the soft lead, thin
    jacket pistol bullets used in my 444 at the time took my deer out like
    it got hit by a ford escort going 50 mph, vs the 7mm like being hit by
    an ice pick going 500mph. So, bullet constructiion and terminal
    velocity have more to do with effective power transfer than do raw
    stored energy data.
    
    Sounds like a few of you guys are Lever buffs. Take a look at the
    Marlin's in .356 or .307. Great paper ballistics, and the flat nose
    really gets the job done. I haven't taken my 444 out of the closet
    since I took that elk with the 356.
    
    Seeing how it is May, I recommend none of these weapons for turkey.
    
    Good Hunting----Mike

    
    re .19
    
    Also you have to realize that just because a bullet has x amount of
    energy available it does not release it all at once, if it did the 
    bullet would never penetrate the deer, just knock him down and send
    massive trauma throughout the body.  This is opposed to the example
    in .19 with the 7mm, this bullet release next to none of its energy
    and relied on hitting in the vital area to kill.  You need to find a
    happy balance point of energy release, you want a bullet to release 
    its energy within the body, but all of it within the body. The ideal 
    energy usage will leave the bullet just under the hide on teh opposite
    side of the deer from entry, thus all available energy was used to 
    dispatch the deer, none is wasted on the country side opposite the 
    deer.
    
    --Bob
    
    In reality though, anything that brings him down, with limited
    suffering did the job just fine.
    

Just an idea...

Moving bullet has kinetic energy (ft/lbs you see in the tables)...
It also has momentum...

Kinetic energy is calculated by using the square of velocity; momentum is
not. Kinetic energy calculations favor high velocity bullets; the higher
the velocity the better, since you get a big jump in KE when you square the
velocity. Light high velocity bullet may have greater kinetic energy but less 
momentum than a big slow moving bullet (compare .223 with .44 magnum).

Momentum is a beter predictor of stopping power (at least some people think 
so). The other factors which may be more important than momentum are the 
size of bullet, shape of bullet, type of shock wave created in the body cavity,
where the animal is hit, what happens to the bullet after it enters, how
the animal behaves after it is hit (some run, some fall, some just stand
there)    

The ideal energy usage will leave the bullet just under the hide on teh 
opposite side of the deer from entry, thus all available energy was used to 
dispatch the deer, none is wasted on the country side opposite the deer.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had one bullet do just that.  The deer was quartering away and was 
hit just in front of the left hindquarter.  The bullet travelled 
thru the "boiler room" and lodged just under the skin behind the 
right front shoulder.  It was mushroomed out perfectly.

As for my choice, I like my .35.  I've not hit a deer yet that 
didn't drop within 100 yards.  I also think the best gun is the 
one that you feel most confident with, regardless of how that gun 
or ammo looks on paper.

FWIW, 

Scott

PS It was actually my brothers deer, but we both hunt with Marlin 
.35 levers...

	Hey, it is always good to dream...

	First things first: caliber. Lots of *great* possibilities 
	here (30-06, 270, 280, 308 ... ), but since we are talking
	75 - 200 yards we are likely talking brush hunting with the
	occasional long shot. This calls for a relatively short 
	gun (short action helps here) with quick handling qualities.
	My choice: I will go along with the 7mm-08 for this type
	of hunting. Plenty of power for deer, great ballistics
	out of short barrels. Perfect for this kind of hunting.

	Action type: for the 7mm-08 basically two types come into
	consideration. If you like lever actions, then go for a Browning 
	BLR, no need to worry about having to use blunt nosed bullets,
	the box magazine takes care of that. If (like I do) you happen 
	to like bolt actions, one could go for a Remigton Model 7
	(one of the sweetest rifles ever built) either with a wood
	or fiberglass stock. Other possibilities would be Browning
	Micro Medallion (as a reply a few back stated), Sako Carbine
	or for the super rich (or just very choosy) an Ultra Light
	Arms Model 20 (5 pounds and super accurate).

	Barrel length: I would go for a carbine length weapon,
	like the Model 7. You get great performance out of short
	barrels with the 7mm-08, and you will still have the 
	great handling capabilities of a short gun.

	Stock: I would probably go for a fiberglass because of their
	strength. They are noisy, though. Wood looks better too.

	Sights: I'll second all the fans of low power variables.
	My choice, hmm, if the weight allowed it: a Schmidt and Bender 
	1 1/2 - 6. It would allow shooting in falling light long after
	most other scopes had packed in. If weight is a limiting
	factor, how about a Leupold 1 1/2 - 5 ?

	Fun this, too bad I am out of money...


							- Mike

    
    
    50MM Machine Gun..
    
    In the dense woods, it's your best chance...
    
    
    
    
    Seriously, I bought the Remington 7400 Carbine in .30-06 last fall.
    No scope because of the limited length shots we get here in Maine.
    
    Now the bad news. I missed 2 deer last year from about 75 yards,
    through some pretty think stuff... But it was definately the shooter,
    not the gun..
    
    Jim
    

    Re 50mm Machine Gun
    
    
    	Also makes one hell of a chuck gun....
    
    
    	Red

    
    
    	I resemble that!
    
    		Chuck
    

    
      How many of you folks have "just one rifle"? I'm a true believer
    in "tayloring the tool to the task"...
    
      For the thick woods I like the 1978-1982 vintage Winchester M94
    in 375 Winchester. It weighs a hair over 6 lbs unloaded, about 6.5
    lbs with 1 in the chamber and 4 up the stack. I use a peep sight and
    love it with this rifle. M94's and peep sights go together like hot
    fudge and vanilla ice cream :-) Since it's so light, you can leave the 
    sling at home too. You'll almost forget you're carrying a "high powered
    rifle" because it's so light. If you've ever carried any unscoped .22
    rifle around all day long then you'll know what this rifle is like.
    
      For those who may encounter the occasional 200 yard shot, but are in
    the thick stuff for a majority of the time I would opt for any potent
    (7mm08, 308, 358,) caliber in the Browning BLR with a 1.5X-5X scope.
    
      For those who are in the wide open spaces for a majority of the time
    I would go with any good bolt action rifle in any of the "longer
    action" calibers (such as 270, 30-06, 280, 7mm mag, etc.) with a 2X-7X
    scope...
    
      Now, if you can convince your spouse with this reasoning that these
    3 rifles are "needed", all the better!!!   ;-)
    
    
    Joe

    Reasonably sound logic, Joe, except for the part about leaving the
    sling home since the gun only weighs 6 lbs.  This is great until you
    bag a deer, bear etc_over_100_lbs.  I might be a wimp, but I usually
    need two hands to drag my game and I'm not about to leave my rifle in
    the woods.
    
    Personally, my favorite rifle is my HK 770, which is a .308 auto
    loader.  I have nice flat 150 grain rounds for deer to elk.  I am
    confident that I can drop em from 0-250 yards.  I have a 2x7 scope.
    The thing I like best is that the scope is mounted using the HK claw
    mount.  I carry the scope seperately in the case and attach it to the
    gun if I think I will have long shots.  If I find myself in brush, I
    take the scope off, put it in my pocket and flip up the rear iron
    sight.  I can take a deer up to 100 yards with these sights. 
    
    HK doesn't sell this gun in the U.S. anymore.  I bought mine in 87 for
    $500.  In 88 they went up in price to $1000.  No one in the U.S. would
    pay that so HK stopped importing them.
    
    .....but I always bring myu sling :-)
    
    /brett
    

re .27:

I have "one rifle" - the over-under double I mentioned earlier.

I don't have a sling fitted, but since it's got interchangeable barrels it is
also a take-down action. So when no longer needed I take it apart and stow it in
a back pack...

/. Ian .\

	Re .-1 and .9

	Ian, it sounds like a nice package. I like the take-down 
	capability, especially if you go travelling
	on airplanes and such (makes your case look less like
	a firearms case). Do you have the three barrels you
	mentioned in .9? 

	What is the accuracy of the thing like? I've heard mixed 
	reports on the ability of doubles to zero both barrels to 
	same point of impact. Is this a problem for the Valmet?

	Can you load your cartridges to the same pressure levels
	as one could in a bolt action rifle? What about extraction?

	What is the 9.3X74R cartridge capable of? Living in Europe,
	I suppose it is embarrasing to know so little about the
	various European/metric cartridges :-). Is this cartridge
	similar to the .375 HH Magnum in performance?
	

	Cheers.

							- Mike

I have the barrels mentioned earlier (.308/.308, 9.3x74R/9.3x74R and 12 
gauge double) plus a .270 over .270 barrel that they no longer sell (except 
to special order). 

The two barrels group to a single point of aim at 100 metres but diverge 
slightly at other distances. It shoots a little better than 1 minute of arc 
at 100 metres and better than 3 m.o.a. at up to 600 metres.

It is quite strong - I'd rate it about as strong as a Mauser action in practice.

I don't have any ballistics handy for the 9.3x74R but the following is 
indicative

			vel			energy
			muzzle	300 yd		muzzle	300 yd
			

9.3x57 Mauser		2065	1400		2715	1274		(286 gr)

9.3x62 Mauser		2360	1580		3545	1622		(286 gr)

375 H&H Magnum		2690	1928		4337	2228		(270 gr)
			2530	1551		4263	1602		(300 gr)

So yes the more powerful 9.3x74R is a magnum cartridge in the 375 H&H class.

/. Ian .\

footnote as it were...

The "Imperial" system of cartridge designation uses the bullet diameter, or the
diameter of the bore measured over the grooves, followed by an identifier. In
the case of the .375 H&H Magnum the bullet diameter and groove size is .376"
(or 9.55 mm) and .375 is within allowed tolerances and in keeping with the norm
when Holland & Holland introduced the cartridge in 1912.

The metric approach uses the bore diameter over the lands - in this case .366"
or 9.3 mm followed by the case length in this case 72.4 mm rounded, so the
.375 H&H Magnum is also the 9.3x72. The addition of an "R" means the case is
rimmed.

Thus the 9.3x74R is a rimmed case almost exactly the same size as the .375 H&H
and the metric cartridge can be considered as having the same relationship to
the .375 H&H as the .307 rimmed cartridge has to the .308 (7.62x51) rimless
cartridge.

In the case of a double rifle like the Valmet the rimmed case makes for easier 
extraction and a stronger action. A quick phone call last night confirmed that
hand loaded cartridges can be loaded to 68,000 cup (as opposed to 56,200 cup
for factory .375 H&H ammo).

(I don't keep reloading manuals in the office - sorry for the delay).

Incidentally my .270 has taken three deer so far: I originally bought the
barrels for a 'K' frame which I sold as a shotgun when I went to the States in
'85 - I kept the rifle barrel because the guy that bought the gun didn't have a
firearm certificate - only a shotgun cert. On my return I bought an 'S' in
12 gauge (easier to get than a rifle at the time) and now I rent a house from
a guy who owns 92,000 acres of Scottish moorland I have the permit for a hunting
gun again - I got Valmet to fit the .270 to the new frame, bought a .308 barrel
(because I have easy access to ammo for practice) and got the 9.3 which so
far has only "killed" a few metallic silhouettes. However come the Autumn I have
an official Ministry of Agriculture permit to cull three red deer stags in 
Scotland. I can hardly wait!

/. Ian .\

	Ian, thanks for the reply. Good stuff!! 68000 cup
	sounds *pretty* impressive, makes the question about
	the strength of the Valmet action a bit superfluous :-).

	Re:

	>>However come the Autumn I have
	>>an official Ministry of Agriculture permit to cull 
	>>three red deer stags in Scotland. I can hardly wait!

	Life can be really cruel...  :-). Best of luck!

	BTW, any idea of the cost of hunting Red Deer in Scotland
	for us mere mortals (i.e. without the connections that *some*
	people seem to have :-)? How is this normally arranged ?


	Cheers.

						- Mike

    	I feel what you need is determined by the kind of country you hunt.
    I first started hunting deer with a Sako Forrester in .243.  (Had
    bought it for varmints.)  That is some kind of nail-driver and
    gorgeous.  But the action (bolt) was too slow and the caliber too light
    for the thick cover we hunt.  What is perfect for me is my BAR in '06
    with a 1.5 X 4 variable.  It's fast enough for those quick seconds and
    has the range for those occasional power-line shots.  The big advantage
    of the scope IMHO is that important 15-20 minutes it gives you before
    sunset.
    
    Andy
    
    
    
    

    If you gents want something with some real "Freght Train" knock-down
    power, how about a 365 grain maxi-ball in a 50 caliber muzzleloder. I
    watched my father hit a 4 point bull elk at about 50 yards with one 
    and it knocked him litteraly off of all four feet!