Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Boy, I bet you were realy P.O. I know that I sure would have been. It
    is my understanding that during deer season that dogs can only be used
    for coastal waterfowl hunting. I can't think of what somebody would be
    doing with these dogs. I think if was me by the third time 354 and 357
    would have been history.
    
    s.b.
    

    
    
    	Call the local warden. 
    
    		CP
    

 I called the Fish and Wildlife field headquarters in Westboro and
they to said that they had never heard of this type of story.
However the dog officer in Holden seemed to be well informed. She said
that the dogs belonged to a local fox and coon club. They paint the
numbers on the dogs with women's hair dye. She also said that the dogs
are equipped with radio transmitters ( which I didn't see ) and were
in all probability chasing coy dogs which are heavily populated in the
area I mentioned. She wasn't well informed about the legalities of
dogs in the woods during deer season and if the dogs weren't chasing deer
then they were ok. 
   

    
    re .1
    
    And if it was up to me...especially if I was the owner of the dogs,
    you'd be paying one huge fine...sued...etc.  As the reply .3 suggests,
    it may have been perfectly legal for the dogs to be out running, he
    didn't see them chasing deer, and even if they were you do not have the
    authority to "make them history".  Please stay where you are, we don't
    need your type in VT.
    
    <Flame even set a little higher>
    
    it always gets me hot to hear this kind of garbage....so the dogs were
    in the woods...did it ever occur to you for even a moment that those
    animals are trained to hunt only certain types of game?  that trained
    animals do not chase deer (if trained not to chase deer)?  talk to
    anyone who runs hounds, if they start on deer...they will break them of
    it fast, or give the dog away as a pet, it doesn't help them any to
    have their dog chasing deer when they're suppose to be running coon,
    fox, coyote, etc.
    
    so the dogs were hunting in an area that you (re .1 hypothetically as
    your story suggests) were hunting...too bad pal, that's the way it goes 
    sometimes, move or stick it out, whatever you chose.  Shoot the dogs,
    and your in deep sneakers.
    
    <flame to a dull roar>
    
    Kevin
    

   I should have put a note in the base to leave the discussion on
shooting dogs somewhere else. I think it was discussed in another 
note with some heated discussion that I would like to leave out of
this note. Sure it ruined my hunt and I was angry but can live with that. 
   Maybe the dogs were on a hunt or maybe they got loose who knows, such 
is life. I didn't consider shooting the dogs. All I know is that I had a 
strange and different experience while deer hunting and I thought I would
tell you about it.

Frank 

    
    Frank,
    	Don't feel as though you did something wrong by putting your note
    in here.  I, for one, am glad you did.  It's good to look at the other
    side of this dog-deer issue too;  i.e.  dogs are seen in the woods for
    a legit reason and they are certainly not chasing deer.  I wish all
    dogs were of this nature :')  You can't just assume they're after a
    deer.  
    
    - Rob    Happy Holidays to all
    

    
    
    
    
    This topic was dicussed in another note... Or File??  I can't
    remember..  Anyway i "Would" shoot any dog i found running deer.
      If the dog is with a hunter and hunting rabbit or birds then fine..
    But i'll shoot my butt off at that damm dog if i see him..
    
               (Lower Flame)
    
    
              Happy Holidays
    
                         Jef
    
               

    Kevin,
    
      What would you do if you saw a dog actually chasing a deer while
    you were hunting??? This happened to a member of our hunting party
    this year. He had heard a dog barking off in the distance for quite
    a while (I heard it to), and it seemed to be getting closer. Suddenly
    a doe came crashing out of some thick woods, tongue hanging out (really
    tired), and ran within 50yds of my brother. Hot on its trail was a
    black and white dog. The dog had obviously been running the deer for
    quite some time. This is (to me) a clear case of irresponsibility on
    the part of the owner.
    
      Dogs don't run deer for the meat. The run them, take them down, and
    leave them. Sorry, but I wouldn't allow something this cruel to happen
    if I had ANY control over the situation at all.
    
      To say "we don't want your kind in Vermont" is both short-sighted and
    narrow-minded.
    
    -Ron-
    
      

    
    The law in your state seems somewhat lax (IMO), in regards to 
    what is allowed in the field during deer season. 
    
    Here in Ontario, when hunting is permitted is a certain area, for
    deer, dogs are only allowed if they are licenced for the purpose of
    hunting deer - otherwise is assumed that they are just running deer, 
    and should be caught/shot (drugs or lead), and the owners heavily
    fined.  Just like a rifle or shot-shell of inappropriate size
    is illegal for deer, you are not allowed to have it in the field
    during deer season.
    
    Something like this would make it easier to enforce the laws, and make
    for a more enjoyable hunt.  But then again, the season is quite a bit
    shorter and therefore these regulations are easier to control, and 
    enforce in Ontario.
    
    Tom
    

      What state in the US (if any) allow the use of dogs for hunting
    deer???
    
    -Ron-

    Not any that I know of(rep to .10) but I haven't been able to all the
    lower 48s' YET!  Anyway, out here in Colo. you see a dog during
    deer/elk season; CAP HIM!!!  I don't know what, or how it is to hunt
    back east, but out here you see a dog in the same area that your
    hunting deer/elk....Well, there is a REAL good chance the dog has gone
    ferrel(wild)...Sorry, but that animal need to be put down...and left
    for coyote bait.  And as far as being Narrow Mind, etc..Sir, I do 
    believ that the owner of those animals was the irresponsible one.  HE/
    she should have been able to realize that there were people in the
    field hunting large game, and worked their animals in a better place!
      As a Hunting Dog owner, I know this to be correct...Regardless...It's
    like working my lab on water retrieves next to people tyring to fish.
    
    
    Jeff

    I had always thought that southeastern states such as Geogia allowed
    the use of dogs for deerhunting. I had a conversation with a game
    warden a few years back and he told me it was about the most difficult
    aspect of his job, trying to convince a dog owner that his/her dog
    had been chasing deer. He even went so far as to tell this woodcutter
    to carry a gun on his skidder to put away any dogs chasing deer
    in his woodlot. The game wardens reasoning for this was he was short
    handed. It is the dog owners responsibility for this not to happen.
    If it continues the owner should be allowed to own a dog. Just my
    $.02.
        					Bret

    PLEASE insert "HUNT" in-between "in" and the word "all"
    
    OPPPSSSS

    It is legal to run deer with dogs in certain counties in the south part
    of Georgia. However, dogs running deer outside of the counties and
    legal days for deer dogging is illegal and the dog is a fair target per
    the DNR law enforcement. The advice I was given by DNR officers is if 
    there is a collar on the critter illegally running deer, just dont tell
    anyone he ran in front of your bullet.
    
    I agree that it is bad when people let there dogs free to roam the
    woods and chase anything that will run from the dogs. While huunting
    this year, several times I heard dogs running for up to an hour and
    covering several miles. From my experience of hounds, only deer and
    ocassionally a coon will cover this much distance while being chased.
    
    Regards
    
    Carl

Ron,

I believe that in the southernmost parts of Georgia it's legal.  
I don't really keep up with it since I hunt in the middle of the 
state where we can't use dogs.  

I also think that its legal in other southern states - Alabama 
and Mississippi if I remember correctly.  Anybody from 'Bama or 
Mississippi out there that can confirm?

Scott

    They use dogs in parts of Mississippi........I don't know
    about the whole state.
    
    Clay

    I was reading an article in the sports section of the globe a couple
    of weeks ago about trained bear dogs.  It seems they are legal in
    some New England states.  Anyone hunting should I think be aware
    of what other game/methods for taking game are legal in the area
    and season they are hunting, so they know what they'll encounter.
    	Linda

>>    Kevin,
    
>>      What would you do if you saw a dog actually chasing a deer while
>>    you were hunting??? This happened to a member of our hunting party
>>    this year. He had heard a dog barking off in the distance for quite
>>    a while (I heard it to), and it seemed to be getting closer. Suddenly
>>    a doe came crashing out of some thick woods, tongue hanging out (really
>>    tired), and ran within 50yds of my brother. Hot on its trail was a
>>    black and white dog. The dog had obviously been running the deer for
>>    quite some time. This is (to me) a clear case of irresponsibility on
>>    the part of the owner.

	Ron, when did I say it was responsible, anything I've ever said
	about dogs chasing deer is that the owner has the responsibility
	to keep the dogs under control at all times.  Read some of my notes
	in the VT file on this.  You're right!!! it is a clear case of 
	irresposibility, and I agree with you.  What would I do if I saw
	it?  Probably try and catch the dog, if it had a collar find out
 	who's it was, and let the law work for me, or tie the dog in the
	woods and have the game warden go dig him up...but that's not what
	I was talking about!!!!

    
>>      Dogs don't run deer for the meat. The run them, take them down, and
>>    leave them. Sorry, but I wouldn't allow something this cruel to happen
>>    if I had ANY control over the situation at all.

	Your not telling me anything.  It's been said that hunting is cruel
	too, not by me, but it's certainly someones elses (the anit's)
	opinion.  In the end the deer is dead, dead is dead.  Hey I'm 100%
	against dogs running deer, and also 100% against the attitude that
	if a dog is "ruining" my hunting than they should be shot.  This is
	what the "sportsman" in re .1 is talking about.  Not about dogs 
	chasing deer, in fact I didn't open up this rathole.  I was pissed
	because of the attitude that the "dogs ruined my hunting" so they 
	deserve a hunk of lead.  Next it'll be my retriever that flairs a
	pair of mallards while working a bird, and she should be shot because
	she ruined someones hunting...where do you draw the line?
    
>>      To say "we don't want your kind in Vermont" is both short-sighted and
>>    narrow-minded.
    
>>    -Ron-
  
	I ask you to look again at the message I was trying to get across,
	it really didn't have anything to do with dogs chasing deer.  And
	I stand committed to my statement that "I" don't want his kind in
	VT, because his kind could shoot an awful lot of dogs hunting legally.
	And if that's short-sighted and narrow-minded, then so-be-it.

	Kevin

	To the author of the note:  I apologize if my words caused this note
	to go astray.  I meant to keep it on the topic, which wasn't dogs
	chasing deer.  That is an old horse that's been beat to death in
	here...sorry.
	  
      

    re .17 There are alot of restrictions when using dogs to hunt bear
    in N.H. For instance they can only use dogs for about a month prior
    to firearms season for deer. Bear season ends here the day before
    firearms season and also a guide with dogs can only assist with
    three kills not counting his own. But there is definately a big
    difference in a dog running a bear and one running a deer. First
    of all any bear guide will not allow one of his dogs to run a deer
    as they all take the time to train the dog right. Also bear dogs
    are hounds and have a very distinct baying where as dogs running
    deer have their own distinct way of barking "death". It's a big
    problem in N.H. and the problem lies with the owner as N.H. has
    a statewide "leash" law. If the owner doesn't take the responsibilities
    seriously and lets his dog run deer the dog should then be removed
    from the owner. But the damage will already be done. Once the dog
    gets the taste of blood in him (for the kill and not for hunger)
    the dog 99% of the time will continue to run deer. In N.H. if your
    dog is caught in a "deerfield" they will start with fines to the
    owner unless the dog is caught running deer, which most of the time
    will get ddisposed of by the authorities. Just my $.04.
    							bret

 Can it go in another way.Say an Anti is buying dogs at the pound to let
 lose in the woods to stop all hunting .Then they don't have to walk around
 all day and or fight with a mad hunter. 

     I live in Virginia and it's legal to use dogs to hunt deer in the
    eastern half of the state. I don't care much for the type of deer
    hunting that these guys do while using dogs. They all have 4-wheel
    drive trucks,C B radio's,and a leash hooked to their belts so they
    can't get too far from the truck. Here's how they hunt, they pull off
    onto the side of the road release 10 or 15 dogs into the woods and wait
    for them to jump a deer, then get on the C B and tell the other hunters
    which direction the deer is headed, after they get the word they go
    speeding down the the road to head off the deer, they pull over on the
    side of the road and listen for the dogs, if the dogs are close they
    jump out of the truck and shoot the deer as it runs across the road.
    This I don't consider hunting plus it will cause many land owners to
    get down on hunting, and that makes it tough for the real hunters. What
    kind of stories do you think these guys tell when they get home. "Boy
    what a tough day I ran out of Jack Daniels @ noon, I have been freezing
    since the heater in my truck stopped working, and the deer I shot
    didn't fall in the road so I had to drag him 20 feet".
     To be honest I'm being to nice. Some of these guys kill every deer
    they see buck or doe, wreak farmers roads with their 4-wheel drive
    trucks during bad weather, drive onto land that is posted to shoot deer
    and pick up dogs. I guess you see why I don't like it. But on the other
    hand I don't get pissed at dogs while hunting and shoot them. HOW WOULD
    YOU FEEL IF IT WAS YOUR DOG THAT SOMEONE SHOT JUST BECAUSE HE CAME BY
    YOUR STAND?

    .21
    
    IF i caught my dog in the woods running deer i would shoot him myself.
    If a dog can't be trusted to stay home then the owner of the dog should
    have him hooked. Dogs should not be in the woods unless there owner is
    with them hunting legally. So if someone caught my dog running deer and
    shot him i would thank him for helping me do my job.

    re .0 In Mass., hunting of small game etc. is suspended
    *only* during the shotgun season for deer, not for archery
    or black powder seasons. It would be perfectly legal for
    a dog owner to hunt bunnies or fox or birds, if the season
    is still open (not sure about birds.)
    
    During shotgun season, 'waterfowl in coastal areas' is the 
    only open hunting.
    
    Dana
    
    PS, I've had bird hunters with dogs thrash right by my archery 
    stands, and ten minutes later, a deer came up the same trail.
    Ya never know.

    
    re .10 
    
    It is legal to use dogs in much of the south. N. Carolina and Florida
    for example both allow dogs.
    
    -Bob

>>    I was reading an article in the sports section of the globe a couple
>>    of weeks ago about trained bear dogs. 

This reminds me of something funny from when I was a kid. My 
great-grandfather who lived in Tennessee used to have some 
bear dogs.  I can remember my dad telling me we were going to 
visit his grand-daddy, but that I couldn't get out of the car 
"because he has BEAR-DOGS that are real mean and I don't know  
if grand-daddy has 'em tied up."  I pictured a cross between a 
bear and a dog - a huge, 300 lb. beagle with fangs about 6" long.  
It was enough to make sure my 6 year old butt stayed in the car 
until I knew there weren't any "bear-dogs" in the front yard!

I forgot about that until now, so I guess there are parts of 
Tennessee that use dogs, too (this is in Maryville - Blount 
county).

Scott

    (.21) IGNORANCE IS BLISS , BEFORE CONDEMING SOMETHING I WOULD HOPE THAT
    YOU WOULD KNOW OF WHAT YOU SPEAK...........
    

    There are a few (or at least used to be) counties in the eastern
    part of Texas which allow deer hunting with dogs.  These are
    usually areas with extremely heavy forests.
    
    Jerry

Funny how things differ from place to place isn't it.

Here in Britain the only time a dog can be shot is by a farmer who finds it
worrying his livestock (deer don't count).

And if you shoot a dog [deliberately] then you run the risk of going to jail
and perhaps more to the point losing your hunting and gun licences for life.

And since the MFH is almost always a JP (as well as a major land owner) you 
stand a *very* real chance of suffering the full extent of the law if you kill 
one of his dogs.

/. Ian .\

    Has anyone considered what happens to that cute pup, that a kid drags
    home, after it's welcome has worn out?  It's time for the disappearing
    act.  One day Dad takes it for a long, one way ride in the country
    and no one seems to know what happened to it.  "It must have ran
    away".  Now most farmers that I know already have more dogs than
    they want.  So not many of these abandoned animals find comfortable
    accomoditations out there.  They eat what they can run down.  And
    they run in packs.  Often times they pack with domestic dogs from
    the area that are allowed to run loose.  You can never fully trust
    a dog which has participated in and tasted the fresh kill.  
    
    A couple of years ago, while camping at a friends property in No.
    Ky., a pack of dogs took a young cow down on that property.  We
    shot two of them.  Both were wearing collars and not looking like
    an abandoned animal.  We have since caught up to a third one, after
    watching it stalk and jump a little four pointer during deer season.
    There's two more from that pack, and if we can get a shot, we'll
    take them down.
    
    I personally don't believe in killing for the sake of killing. 
    But in the case of these animals, they present a serious problem
    to the safety of livestock, they chase the game away, and if they
    can drag a cow down they could drag one of the kids away.  
    
    While I doubt that a dog with a number painted on it's side is 
    running wild, I would not stake my life on it!  Sometimes they 
    don't return to thier master after a field trial.  Sometimes, if
    they don't respond to a disgusted trainer, he just leaves them.
    
    Fortunately for me, I camp and hunt on private property.  I know 
    what animals belong there.  If a strange animal is causing a 
    problem, I have the right to take it down.  This could be a real 
    problem on public lands.
    
    Oh yes, if a dog of mine were running deer.  I would shoot him
    immediately!  I wouldn't wait until I had to pay for dead 
    livestock or go to jail over a mauled child.
    
    Glenn
    
    
    

    I don't understand why someone would shoot their own dog for running
    deer if they have done nothing in advance to train it not to.
    Dogs aren't born with any inner knowledge about what game is forbidden.
    I think that even if the dog had made a habit of it, it would be
    worth trying a shock collar such as is done to train dogs off of
    rattlesnakes.  I just can't believe that someone who thinks of the
    dog as a hunting companion and pet wouldn't give it a chance.  And
    finally if you are going to put your own dog down, why not drive
    to the vet and have it done by injection?
    	Linda

    one on the rags out, had a pretty good article about pre-training a pup
    not to chase deer...
    
    they hung a hock/tarsal gland/hide off of an electric fence...  every
    time the pup nipped at it he was shocked, seemed to do the trick.
    
    I don't think I could kill a dog, let alone my own.  But then again I
    havn't actually had to make that kind of decision.
    
    Fra

              This past deer season I was confronted with a situation of
    having a doe walk by me and about 15 minutes later a dog came through
    the exact trail as the deer did. I have seen this dog for the past 4-5
    years and I know of who the owner is. I decided to give the dog another
    chance and fired to the right of him to turn him around but only to 
    have him stop and stare at me for a couple of minutes before he turned
    and ran. I called the local warden that evening and he told me that he
    was glad I called and that I was not the first to make a complaint
    against this dog. Also I told him that I chose not to talk with the
    owner as I have heard that he is a little on the strange side. He told
    me that I had him pegged, and that he has talked with him several times
    and the owner said that he dog has the right to roam where ever he
    wants to. The warden said that it was a real shame that I missed as he
    hasn't been able to catch him off the owners property when he has gone 
    to investigate in the past. I wanted the warden to talk with the owner
    so that he could make up his mind as to what to do, either keep an eye
    on his dog or take a chance on loosing him. I told the warden as far as
    I was concerned it is open season on the dog.

    RE: 32
    
    That's pretty much the attitude of the game wardens around here
    too.  If you see 'em runnin deer, shoot 'em.  As I've stated 
    previously, I don't thrill at the thought of taking the life of
    an animal that I have no intention of putting on the table. But
    as much as it bothers me to do it, I believe it's what's called
    for.  Unfortunately, there are people out there with dogs, who
    can't train them (ya gotta be smarter than the dog first).  And
    although some times the owner is the one that deserves the 
    punishment.............you know the rest.