Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    IDENTIFY YOUR TARGETS.
    
    It never ceases to amaze me how some could shoot someone else thinking 
    they are a deer.
    
    This past weekend I was on stand with my thunder-stick and off in a
    distance coming towards me were two fine white-tails bobing along.
    
    I never touched my weapon, something did'nt look right but it looked
    good if you know what i mean. Turns out it was two hikers with white
    shirts trucking up the mountain.
    
    My second experience was a brown flash weaving in and out of the trees,
    straining to see, again something was wrong, it turned out to be another
    hunter in camo, and again I waited to be sure what i saw was what i
    want again never even touching the gun.
    
    Rick
    

    
    My wife brought home a copy of an article (I forget the publication).
    
    The story was about a father raising his twin daughters (1+yr old)
    after there mother was shot by a deer hunter while in her backyard. The
    story took place in Maine, and the family had recently moved there.  It
    seems she saw the hunters in the woods in back, and went out to take
    down laundry or close a gate, I forget which, she put on white mittens.
    Well the hunter saw two white flags running across the field and shot
    at one of them, hit the lady square in the chest.
    
    The worst part was that many of the town residents blamed the woman for
    being stupid and wearing white mittens during deer season. The hunter
    was found innocent on the charges.  According to the F&G, from
    where the hunter was, you could clearly see the next door house, and
    most of the womans house. There was a mostly open field, with some 
    small trees between the hunter and the women, there was no sign of
    deer. This was checked due to the hunter claiming to see deer, he
    still claims this.
    
    The good point of the story was that the husband does not want hunting 
    stopped, in fact he is a hunter. He does want more hunter education.
    
    Some people just ain't to bright
    
    --Bob
    

    re:  <<< Note 529.0 by SALEM::MACGREGOR "I'm the NRA/GONH/NAHC" >>>

    I have had opportunities  for  shooting  deer  slip  through my fingers
    because I made sure of  my  target  and  of  the back-drop for my shot.
    However,  I would rather have the  regret  of  being  skunked  than  of
    killing someone.
    
    +- Mark

    re:.3
    
    ditto....  never can be too sure!
    
    Fra

    re:.3 I myself would rather be skunked than kill someone. I also
    don't shoot until I see the whole animal and then pick my spot.
    If I am not to sure my safety stays on. I certainly don't want to
    end up being charged for what I thought was but wasn't. I would
    rather not get a shot if I was not sure of the shot than to shoot,
    not sure of my shot and doing something I would regret for the rest
    of my life. It is things like this that anti's go after. But $h!t
    happens and it is only us to blame.
    							Bret

    Re. the basenote:
    
    From Foster's Daily Democrat, Dover, NH
    
    A Dunbarton man was fatally shot while hunting during the weekend
    and a Derry man has been charged with negligent homicide in the
    death, a state official said.  
    
    Ronald Byers, 34, was shot as he hunted off Sodom Road in Tuftonboro
    at about 10:00 AM Saturday, Lt. Richard Estes of the state Fish
    and Game Department said.  Richard Low, 47, ran out of the woods
    and contacted authorities after the shooting, Estes said.
    
    Low was hunting with a muzzle-loaded rifle, while Byers was using
    a bow.  Both were hunting deer.  They apparently didn't know each
    other, Estes said.
    
    Details of the incident were not disclosed.  Low was released on
    $5000 personal recognizance bail Saturday night, and was to be
    arraigned in Wolfboro District Court on Nov. 10.
    
    

    Please people, let's be very careful!
    
    Mark.

FLAME ON!!!!!

Hang these people out to dry!!!!  There is absolutely no excuse for 
this to happen, and if the punishment for a stupid mistake is severe 
enough, then people will make damn sure they know what they're 
shooting at, know what's in their lanes of fire, and know what's in the 
background BEFORE they shoot.  If we hold the parents accountable for 
what a minor child shoots as well, then the parents will make sure the 
kid understands these basic hunting rules, too.

I have the deepest sympathy for those and their families misfortunate 
enough to have been injured or killed, and absolutely nothing but contempt 
for the idiots who did it!

FLAME OFF

just my thoughts on it,

Scott

    
    I read in the Nashua Telegraph last night about the opening of Maine's
    deer season, one fatality and a some (forget the number) of wounded.
    
    The fatality was a 12 yr old boy who shot himself with a gun that will
    fire if you "bump the back of the hammer". I see several things wrong 
    with this which should have been cured by a hunter safety course:
    
    1) gun not always pointed in a safe direction
    2) gun in a position to fire before ready to fire it (safety off,
       hammer cocked)
    3) Using a defective or at least not safe gun.
    
    What are these people thinking.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    One of the things that I feel contributes to this is lack of orange
    clothing.  Now, in this case I can understand that the party (corpse)
    was bow hunting and therefore camo-ed.  However, I notice that here
    in Washington, where there is no orange law, most people do not wear
    orange.  This is astounding to me.  
    
    I have always worn orange because I *want* to be seen, not because it's
    a law.  I've heard comments from friends here that say, "Oh, grew up
    in the city, huh?" when they see the orange.  I also had another
    friend in MA that said that to me just one year before he shot his
    uncle's hand off in Maine.  (Some of you know who I'm talking about)
    Of course, his down east uncle didn't need orange in the woods.  He
    also won't be needing to tend his lobster pots for a living anymore
    either.
    
    And if you think deer see orange, I am convinced that they don't. 
    This year, when I shot my buck, he stood 40 yards away from me and
    looked right at me.  I had still hunted up on him and I was standing
    right out in the open.  He looked, decided there was nothing there (I
    think deer see movement and not colors....probably not too good with
    shapes either) and puthis head down to eat so that I could shoot him.
    I've also had does pass within 10-20 yards of me on numerous occasions
    and *never* saw me.  
    
    Bottom line: Wear your orange.  You won't look like a geek and you
    won't be the subject of a family gathering if you know what I mean.  
    If anyone says you look like you're from the city, laugh at him.
    
    /brett

    I have to agree with Brett in .10 . Deer only see black, white and
    shades of gray. In N.H. bow season opens almost a month and a half
    before any of the firearms seasons for deer. I wear camo for bowhunting
    up to the opening day of muzzleloader season. Then on goes the orange
    until after tha last day of firearms season. I certainly don't want
    to be the center of attraction at a certain type of family gathering.
    But I won't shoot at something I am not sure of either. It's either
    a deer with the shot I want or it's no shot at all. No sense in
    taking chances, especially when it may involve a life of a human
    being, whether it is mine or someone elses. 
    						Bret

    
    RE:10
    
    I agree that orange is just as good as camo when hunting deer. I have
    had many deer some 20yds away stand and look at me and start to feed
    again.
    
    I always said movement will scare a deer to death before orange would,
    ive had to many experiences to state otherwise.
    
    Rick

    Hi! Pappy here. I agree that anyone who is a hunter and dont't wear
    orange is looking for trouble.
    At one time I was out hunting and wear a red/black jacket and while
    it happen I was short at(thank GOD they missed>) I hit the ground
    an yelled a few FFFF's and got up to go up the hill to see or find
    the a$$$ole that fired,But find no one around.
    to make the short,I now get called my some of my hunting buddy's
    as the Great Pumpkin...
    I reather be seen then short at again.
    Good hunting and Know your TARGET
    
    Pappy

    	Question, if the archer was in camo, did the muzzleloader
    hunter see a deer and think he was shooting through brush,
    or did he shoot at a movement without identifying his target?
    
    	George

	I agree with the comments so far to a point and I put a LARGE
	HOWEVER in here.

	Are we trying to turn the "Hunting Society" into a bunch of
	"If I don't see orange then it's all right to shoot ??"


	This is a WRONG ATTITUDE !!!!  I stress when I teach hunter
	safety that orange is good, but REMEMBER IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET
	BEFORE YOU SHOOT !!!!   This is KEY.. 


	Let's not put across the WRONG message....


					~Mike~

		(Who also wears lots of orange)

    I think Ma. has the right Idea with three seperate seasons. PERIOD.
    
    
    
    Tom

    < Note 529.16 by SA1794::TENEROWICZT >


>    I think Ma. has the right Idea with three seperate seasons. PERIOD.

    Why do you think so?
    
    What's to stop a bow-hunter from burying a broadhead in another hunter's
    back?
    
    Or what's to prevent a shotgunner from putting a slug in someone's
    gut?
    
    Whether or not a person is wearing 4 square miles of blaze orange
    is not the issue.
    
    The bottom line is this:  If some careless slob is not stable enough
    to wait until he/she has positively identified his/her quarry, all
    the laws in the world won't prevent these types of incidents from
    occurring.

    Mark.

    I agree with .15 . Movement doesn't constitute shooting at. The
    target MUST be known to the hunter. I disagree with .16 about seasons.
    I think the deer herd in N.H. will support a 3 month long bow season
    but one thing I do disagree with in N.H. is I think the muzzloader
    season should be after the firearms season and not before. I do
    not blackpowder hunt, yet. But someday I will and I will still think
    that it should be after. But in N.H. the firearms seasons are separate
    from one another, but I have no problem with bow and arrow running
    before, with, and after the other two. Just my $.02.
    							Bret

    Where I come from, bowhunters hunt from tree stands.  Did the shooter
    think he had a deer treed?  Since when do deer wear cammies?  Last
    year, at the check-in station near where I hunt, someone actually
    shot, tagged and checked in with a goat.  Scarey thought, huh?
    Was this guy drunk, stoned, blind or just plain stupid?  This is
    the kind of people that I'd prefer NOT to have in the woods at all!  
    
    Glenn

    
    I agree that some people don't belong. I'll be dammed to figure
    out how to weed them out. I also agree that education is a major
    step in the right direction to clearing up these types of problems.
    I stated that ma. has the right idea meaning that with the distinct
    seperate seasons you don't get people in the woods with camo on
    when others are walking around with slugs or ball ammo in their
    weapons. I frankly prefer bow season over any other season because
    the number of hunters is down during bow season.  For the most part
    I think bow season is safer and the hunters are more proficient
    at the use of their weapons...
    
    
    Tom 

    Hi Guys
    I have got to agree that the ONLY  safe way is to know your target. I
    wear camo during bow season and for ducks and a full orange jacket and
    hat for uplands and deer with shotgun here in MA. Last year I went out
    on opening day for pheasent at Bolton Flats game preserve and some
    A-Hole shot thru the bushs and racked my back with birdshot. I was
    luckly far enough away that the only effect was that it pissed me off.
    
    Theres no way that a 200 lb blaze orange phesent walks this earth. If
    any of you have seen one? God help us. 
    
    Just another good reason for manditory hunter safty classes to be
    required to get a hunting lic. 
    
                                            Walt
    

    re: .20
    Tom,
    Don't count on all hunter being in orange during the Ma. shotgun
    season. Lucky for these two guys I'm not trigger happy.
    
    Last year during the rain. Guy walks right up to me with his orange
    hunting jacket and cap camoed by his olive drab rain parka.
    
    About five years ago. I hear crashing in the brush, turn to look
    and
    out comes a guy on his hands and knees. Head to foot camo, no orange
    at all ( I didn't check his shorts)
    
    Again, don't count on the other guys wearing orange after all many
    of them have non-functional brains.
    
    						John
    

    
    Animals don't see color, so orange is to protect you (the hunter
    from other hunters), don't worry about people thinking you are 
    from the city....  I don't like all this camouflage crap...... 
                                   

    re:.24, Bob hit the nail right on the head... 
    
    Orange or not, nobody has any business shooting unless he is absolutely
    sure of his target and backstop.  Regardless of seasons, and color of
    clothing, had the guy made sure of his target this would have never
    happened....  The problem here is that its an open season in NH on does
    during the muzzleloader season, and even during the first few days of
    the rifle... Your gonna get guys who will shoot at just about anything
    that moves... having the archery season running during the other
    seasons is just compounding the problem...  Fra

    Re: quite a few back...
    
    The woman who was shot while wearing mittens happened just last
    year. The end result is the guy who shot her has agreed to not
    hunt for 5 years in leiu of prosecution...Great, huh ?
    
    Question for those of you who hunt in Maine but do not live here. AND
    please don't take this out of context. There is no hidden meaning.
    
    	"Does a non-resident have to have proof of completing a Hunters
    	 Safety Course before getting a hunting license?"
    
    I'm just curious.
    
    Jim
    

 I think a previous license is all that's required.

    Jim, it is my understanding that non-residents have to either show
    proof of completing a Hunters Safety Course or provide a previous
    license (from any state).
    
    Mark.

    re .22
    
    Guess I have a non-functional brain.  I disagree with your logic.  And
    it's quite lucky for you that you're not trigger happy!!!  I feel I
    should be able to wear just about anything (all things being perfect),
    and not have idiots scoping me, or worse shooting at me.  If we all
    just listened to what we are taught than there wouldn't be a problem.
    Not trying to be self-righteous or anything, but I don't even think
    about picking up my gun, until I have 10000000% identified it as a
    deer.  Than, and only than, do I find a way to determine buck/doe and 
    proceed from there.  If we all weren't so damn concerned about killing 
    the animal, and having a quality experience there wouldn't be these
    problems.
    
    By the way, I've never seen a deer in an olive drab rain parka!
    
    off my soapbox...
    
    Kevin

>>    The end result is the guy who shot her has agreed to not
>>    hunt for 5 years in leiu of prosecution...Great, huh ?

Put the stupid S.O.B. in jail for five years and you're guaranteed that 
he won't hunt for five years AND he gets plenty of time to think about 
his stupid-a$% mistake!

Scott

    RE: .29
    
     First let me say that you are right. Lucky for me that I am not
    trigger happy or I would be in jail and they probably would be dead.
    
    Now without going down a rathole let me restate my position. I didn't
    intend to imply that if you don't wear orange than you have a
    nonfuntioning brain. However, if you don't wear orange in Massachusetts
    during the shotgun deer season (and some others) then you are breaking
    a state law and taking a huge risk of being shot or at least have
    a bead draw on you. What I mean is that in Massachusetts there are
    to many people expecting to see orange and if they don't then it
    can't be human.
    
    So here's my logic. If hunting in Mass. or any other state, obey
    the state laws.
    
    Identify the source of the noise or movement.
    
    Don't count on the other guy wearing orange or any other color.
    
    
    Finally, let me state for the record that in each case that I mentioned
    in .20 that I never lifted my gun or released the safety or endangered
    the people in anyway. Like I said, I am not trigger happy and I
    am certainly not stupid enough to level a gun on a noise of a guy
    in a green parka.
    
    Sorry about the rathole!
    						John
    

 I'm glad this discussion has come up. I am about to buy some hunting clothing,
and had intended to get camo instead of orange, since it is legal to do so.
I am now tending towards getting the orange camo, mostly as a result of this
discussion.

 I think that hunter orange should NOT be mandatory. I think that in places
where it is mandatory, some overzealous slobs draw a bead on anything that 
isn't orange. I believe in being certain about my target before shooting. If
it costs me the deer of a lifetime- so be it. I would not want to live with
an error that is as costly as shooting at a human. 

 I am just really getting into hunting. My skills are not very well developed 
yet. But I am as safe as anyone else you'll ever meet- that came first.

 The Doctah

    	My question in one of the previous was intended to raise some
    of the points addressed since. The one that I haven't seen mentioned
    was the potential of being shot by an arrow, roundball or whatever
    when you're wearing camo. I agree that you should identify you target
    100% before pointing a weapon at it, but the scenario that I can
    imagine goes like this:
    	I see movement, and upon careful examination, a large buck
    	walks out into the clear. I line up on him, and he starts to walk
    slowly behind a bush. I can still see him head to tail pretty clearly,
    but he's a little obstructed by brush. What are the chances that there
    is a bowhunter in camo, sitting motionless and unseen in the brush in
    front or behind the deer?
    
    	What do you think?
    
    		George
    
    P.S. I know that I should wait until he gets back into the clear, but
    even that doesn't cover someone behind him and unseen.
    

    Here is a situation I was in last year during the NY firearms season.
    
      I was sitting on a knoll overlooking a blackberry patch that had
    been frequented by alot of deer.  In fact I had spooked deer out
    of this area on the two previous days.  I had decided to get in there
    early and wait for them to come to me.  The land we were hunting
    on was private and posted, we are the only ones with permission
    to hunt it.  Around 4:00, I notice movement in the pines bordering
    the clearing. As my nerves get tighter I can see one, no two, make
    that three sets of legs in the pines.  They stop just inside the
    pines, aparently waiting to come out in the clearing.  I'm all hyped
    cause from the little I can see (legs) they appear to be decent
    deer.  I'm also pysched cause I have a doe permit too!  After about
    5 minutes of waiting (and sweating) out walks three DOGS!  WITH
    THERE OWNER BEHIND THEM!!!   This guy was out walking the dogs with
    his grey raincoat on.  I almost sh*t.  Thank God my Dad drilled
    the importance of gun safety through my head at an early age.  I
    would have bet money that three deer were coming out of the pines.
    Made me think.                      

    RE:30
    I AGREE WITH YOU!  The jerk should should do the nickel behind bars!
    What's to stop him from going to another state to go hunting?  We
    don't need any more of that kind here in Kentucky!  That's for sure!
    
    RE:33
    You beat me to it.  Yes, if everybody made sure of thier target
    before shooting, that would solve some of the problem of accidental
    shootings.  However, in Ky. it's legal to hunt with hi-power rifles.
    I use some very powerful pistols for deer.  You MUST be aware of
    what is behind your target because in all likelihood, your bullet
    is exiting that deer on the other side with enough energy to kill
    at least one more time.  The same holds true with broadheads.  If
    a hunter is in camo and is in the brush, possibly looking at the
    same deer that you are, you might not see him beyond your target.
    If he's in orange, you have a better chance of not shooting each
    other.  Say YES to orange. 
    
    Glenn
    
    	I AM from the city.  And don't care what they may say about
        my orange coat & hat!  
        

    I hunt in Eastern Oregon.  It's open country with big pines, fir,
    and juniper with open ridges and usually (well it seems like for
    me) long range shooting.  There is no law requiring color.  I've
    hunted this area all my life and I would guess about 50% wear color.
    
    I went to Montana a couple of years and they require color so I
    bought a knit slip-over which I like. (no noise).  I treat it like
    I treat my life jacket when I go fishing in the Pacific - put it
    on with out thinking about it.
    
    Logic:  With this much open country and you are walking around with
    camo or some other stupid gear on, you are asking for trouble. 
    Some hunter is going to "scope" you out to see what you are.  It
    makes me very nervous to realize I'm in the crosshairs of some high
    powered rifle as I walk through the woods.  If you wear colors,
    the probability of that happening is smaller.  Anyway, as was pointed
    out, deer/elk don't see colors.
    
    
    Ken
    

    
    One of the things thats not mentioned very much here is the fact
    that we share the woods with alot of non hunters as well.  I have
    had many people happen upon me on public National forest (hikers
    ect.) and on private land, where the people didn't even know it
    was hunting season.  Hunter orange is not in their dress code.
    
    In other words, target identification is a must!!! 
    
    Mike

    
    Mike, 
    
    I hunt an area where there's lot's of hiking trails. I did see hikers
    last week dressed in white tee-shirts and some in brown or brown and
    white.
    
    Lucky for them I was there, I feel identification of your target is
    important not color, anyway when I left the woods I walked by a 
    few of these hiking trail entrances where all kinds of regulations were
    posted on trees, but not one notice that deer season is open and a
    suggestion to wear bright colors and not brown or white.
    
    I'm going to write a letter to make the suggestion, to post the seasons
    at hiking trails and suggest dress.
    
    Question:: As a hunter, I'm sincere to post the info, Do you think the
               hikers will take it the wrong way and use it against us ?
    
               Or should I just say "SCrew what they think, maybe it will
               save someone ?
    
    I guess what i'm trying to say is, and i know you'll all agree, is i
    don't want the non-hunters to think its un-safe to go into the woods
    and start screaming and causing hunting in general more headaches.
    
    You know what i mean, the fine line of "Words" Politics ect.ect.
    
    See Ya,
    
    Rick
    

    Rick,
    
    That sounds like an excellant idea, the problem is getting folks
    to read the posting. I don't think it would stir the non-hunters
    up, infact they would probably be glad to know this information.
    
    I've met alot of good (non-hunter) folks while I was dressed in
    camo and holding a shotgun (duck hunting) and even gone as far as
    sitting on the tail gate of my truck with them to shoot the breeze
    and offer them a cup of coffee from my thermos. We are all basically
    out there for the same purpose.....to take in what nature has to
    offer. Its amazing how friendly (most) folks can be when you get
    past the "us and them" way of thinking. One of the weirdest things
    I have seen is my truck with a Ducks Unlimited sticker on it sitting
    in the Drumlin Farm parking lot with very car having an Audubon
    sticker.....there are differences in the two orginizations but not
    many.
    
    So by all means, warn people of any potential danger. I would hope
    they would do the same.
    
    Tom,

    I recently went to a Conservation Commission meeting in Milford NH and 
    they agreed to posting each one of the entrances to the town owned
    conservation land explaining that hunting season was opened and for
    hikers to wear appropriate clothing, ie. bright colors.
    
    Ray
    

    This subject has been pretty much beaten to death, but I see a couple
    other points that might need to be made.  
    
    I just returned froma week in the Greenwood/Woodstock area of western
    Maine (as well as 1 1/2 days in Andover area).  (Didn't score this year
    unfortunately.)  During the whole week my brother and I saw numerous
    other hunters and BY FAR the uniform of the day for these other hunters
    was brown or green pants, a dark red and black or green and black
    checked coat and a blaze orange hat.  The point is the only item of
    clothing that stood out was the hat.  If that was behind a branch then
    it was difficult to recognize the hunter.  
    
    If I'm not mistaken, the Mass laws require a minimum of 200 sq. in. of
    orange to be visible from 360 degrees (I'm sure it used to be this way.
    I haven't read the Mass deer regs in a few years since I no longer hunt
    deer here.)  The 200 sq. in. provision makes sure that you can't wear
    just a hat of blaze orange.
    
    Sure, everyone should be 10000 % sure of their target before raising
    the rifle/shotgun/bow/whatever.  But unfortunately not every so-called
    hunter is that careful, so the rest of us have to take precautionary
    measures.  To do otherwise is just asking for one of these not so
    careful "hunters" to potentially take a potshot at us.  Why ask for
    trouble?
    
    Of all the hunters I saw last week, only a couple even bothered to wear
    a blaze vest.
    
    I don't like many of the laws that Mass. imposes on us, but this is one
    (the 200 sq. in. bit) that I think is for the good.  Just my .02 worth.
    
    Pete
    
    PS.  About 20 years or so ago, my uncle's best hunting buddy was shot
    by a hunter in Ashburnham, MA.  The buddy wasn't wearing any orange as
    there was no such law at that time. He died from his wound.

    re .41 and MA laws
    
    I believe MA law is 500 sq in of Orange.
    
    --Bob

    Bob's right it is 500 square inches.... and must be continuous...
    your guess is as good as mine on this one... 
    does it mean:
    
    1. cannot be a orange camo pattern?  or
    2. must be 500 inches on the same article of clothing?
    
    Fra

    I am not a hunter, but neither am I anti-gun.  What I am is a person
    who lives in the backwoods of New Hampshire and who is VERY concerned
    about safety during this time of year.
    
    I've seen a steady stream of hunters stop by our neighborhood general
    store to buy beer and wine on their way to the woods.  I've talked to
    the store owner to no avail; he thinks I should be taking down license
    numbers of drunken drivers if I have a problem, not concerning him with
    safety.
    
    With this situation, we are headed for sure disaster.  Someone is going
    to get killed, and if so I hope it's a fellow hunter and not someone's
    child on the way to the schoolbus pickup point.  There was a guy
    turning around in our road the other day who was so blitzed he couldn't
    put a sentence together.  
    
    angry,
    Marge

    
    re .44
    
    We all should concern ourselves with safety during this time of the
    year.  Hunting in general is a very safe activity.  But there always is
    those few that make it bad for the rest of us.  Of course that doesn't
    make you feel any better.  It would not be fair however, for his
    hunting buddy to be shot, as a result of his drinking, nor would it be
    fair for a non-hunter to be shot.  Just because the person shot is a
    hunter, doesn't make it anymore right.
    
    I would hope that you do report these people to the proper authorities.
    The old adage, "If we aren't a part of the solution, then we're a part
    of the problem" comes to mind.  I'm not blaming you in anyway, I'm just
    saying if you have actually witnessed this drunken behavior, and have
    not reported it, how will it ever stop?  
    
    How many of the hunter fatalities are actually alcohol related, or
    non-hunter fatalities?
    
    This does bring up a good general question;  in which states is it 
    illegal to drink alcohol and hunt?
    
    In VT I believe it is legal, I'm not sure when it becomes illegal,
    maybe at the .10 blood alcohol content level (same as DWI)????
    This is where people can get involved to change things...
    
    Hope I didn't open up a big rathole, and if I did someone cover it up
    please....I think it's good to discuss this stuff.  If the moderator
    feels it is apporpriate he/she can open a new note.   
                                 
    Kevin
                                                       

    
    years ago a few of us used to hunt Sandersfield Ma. During bow season
    it was a pleasure but come gun season there was always two car loads
    of hunters that used to barrel down the wood road we used to park
    on. We'd be there at 5:15. Take our time driving in with only parking
    lights. Sure enough 6:10 comes along and here comes two cars lights
    blazing. They'd get out shouting and carrying on. Often times passing
    a bottle around. The last year we hunted there we put a stop to
    it by parking out two trucks side by side at the beginning of the
    wood road adjacent to the dirt road. We packed up and started walking
    down the wood road at 6:00. Sure enough they came in like clock
    work. But the road was blocked. One car tried to go around and spend
    the day opening day with a tow truck getting his car unstuck. We
    didn't put a stop to them making noise and possible drinking but
    we did stop them from disturbing the deer near our hunting area.
    
    
    Tom

    re .45:
    
    You're right, and I'm calling the cops.  The reason I fumed about being
    less  concerned about a buddy being killed is that I feel there's some
    self-regulation required on the part of hunters.  These guys hang out
    at the general store; they know what's happening.  They know who's
    drunk and who's sober; the poor neighborhood kids sure don't.
    
    *sigh*
    Marge

 Marge-

 I'm glad that you chose to be reasonable in venting your frustration about
the alcohol/hunting situation near where you live. It is a valid concern, and
is one that's perhaps insufficiently addressed. As much as I like to drink, I 
just won't go hunting or shooting after drinking (especially hunting). The
two most critical skills are reduced when you drink: target identification and
decision to fire. I think it is the height of stupidity to engage in such
a reckless practice as drinking and hunting. The beer comes out when the
gun gets put away.

 The Doctah

 PS- The best sportsmen also turn into fellow "hunters" that engage in dangerous
or illegal practices.

>>    This does bring up a good general question;  in which states is it 
>>    illegal to drink alcohol and hunt?

I hadn't thought of that, Kevin.  I don't know if there is legislation 
in GA that prohibits hunting when you've been drinking.  We just 
recently made it illegal to operate a boat while intoxicated if I 
remember correctly.  I guess I was going under the assumption that it 
was common sense not to hunt when you're plowed and there really 
wasn't a need for a law but I see now that there is.  I may call the 
Game&Fish guys to see what they say...

Scott_who_in_the_woods_to_hunt_NOT_drink

    RE-1
    	If you look at page 11 of the Georgia Hunting Regulations 1989-190
    you will see that it is rightly so unlawful to hunt under the influence
    of " any, drugs, intoxicating liquor, beer, or wine.
    	IMHO a good law....
    
    					Bill

    Last thursday morning on my way to one of my hunting spots I heard
    on the radio the announcer that it would be better to stay out of
    the woods that day because of drunk hunters. Now I didn't hear the
    whole thing so I stopped at a friends house, who were going hunting
    with me that day, and used their phone and asked the radio announcer
    what the heck he was talking about. He told me that he had just
    gotten a call from a few non-residents who had been drinking quite
    early that day and were going out hunting. I called at about 6:00
    that morning. These guys were calling in requesting a song and told
    the radio announcer about their partying. I couldn't believe it.
    It's too bad the radio station didn't get their names and location.
    Thats quite scary. I don't know about the rest of you guys but just
    going hunting gives me the best high in the world. I certainly don't
    need a drink to top that. Or anything for that matter. I am quite
    sure that all of you agree.
    							Bret

    .....assuming the guy wasn't lieing to you...

    Brett,
        That could be true but I did put him on the defensive right
    away by asking him if he was an anti, he said he wasn't. He then
    told me about the phone call. Anyways they didn't play their song.
    It's too bad, kind of makes things scary. Not only are we looking
    for a nice buck but now we have to look out for drunks in the woods.
    Kind of adds fuel to the anti's fire.
    							Bret

    
    RE: 44
    
    Marge,
    
    I as an avid hunter for 20 years I agree with you 100%. I can speak for
    many, many hunters and assure you they agree on how you feel and that 
    all of them have no problem in policing our ranks and will do so
    without reservations.
    
    I would also like to Thank You for realizing that the Hunter in general
    is really not the bad guy. Like anything that groups of people do there
    always will be the few that ruin something for someone else.
    
    In my hunting party of 9, thats been together for 20 years we DO NOT
    have any alcohol in our camp at all. We are there to hunt and hunt
    right, partying the night before adds to sloppyness the next day.
    Clean clothes, shower, good meal, good nights sleep aids you keeping
    warm during the day and alert. I'm not against those who enjoy a drink
    or two beside the fire-place but excess drinking and acting like a
    teenager is not tolerated.
    
    Again, Thank-You for having a open mind and I assure you that my party
    of 9 will back you up 100%... We are N.H. Deer Hunters who respect the
    safty of others and believe in only fair chase. 
    
    Regards,
    
    Rick Pappalardo
    

I heard this morning on the radio that a 14 yr-old kid was killed 
playing in the woods by a hunter.  Seems the the hunter (get ready for 
the classic line) "saw movement" and shot at it.

Aside from the tragedy of killing a kid, the thing that got me mad was 
that the sheriff of the county "didn't know if charges would be 
brought against the hunter, since he didn't shoot the boy on purpose." 
If there was legislation mandating that charges be brought (involuntary  
manslaughter sound like a reasonable choice) against any hunter 
involved in a shooting accident, I think that we'd see a lot less of 
people shooting at the bushes moving.  Maybe there already is 
smomething on the books and I misunderstood what the sheriff was 
saying, but something needs to be done about this.

Scott

    It's a real tragedy that anyone is injured or killed during hunting
    season, expecially a child. 
    
    I've been reading this note for awhile, and I personally have NOT
    seen most of the ridiculous hunting behavior discussed. 
    
    If you think about the *many* numbers of hunters in the woods (deer
    hunting), and the *few* accidents, I think we hunters are doing
    a damn good job! Mandatory charges on all 'accidents'.... I don't
    know... The previous reply said something about shooting at bushes.
    I for one, do not believe it, I'd have to hear it from the source.
    This is really sad, but do you really think the guy how shot is
    going to say he was shooting at moving bushes! I DOUBT IT, more
    like 'I was shooting at a deer'. 
    
    For safety reasons, kids SHOULD NOT play in the woods during deer
    season. Rifle loads, such as the 30-06, etc, can kill from a mile
    away. There is a danger factor simply because so many hunters are
    in the woods at the same time. Have you ever hunted the Berkshires,
    or worse yet, the Cape (in Mass) for deer? I think it's a tribute
    to all hunters that more accidents do NOT happen. I also think that
    most ANY hunter is going to turn in another hunter who is
    drinking/drunk and has a gun in his/her hands. I just don't think
    it happens as much as is being talked about in this file. 
    
    just an opinion...
    
    	Smitty

     Well, both sides are going to get agreement from me. In my opinion,
    ONE fatality/accident/incident is ONE TOO MANY. On the other hand, if
    we compare the statistics of a group of Massachusetts hunters and
    accidents versus the same amount of Massachusetts drivers and their
    accidents, we'd come out smelling like roses. 
     Unfortunately, people opposed to hunting pick up on and spread the
    negatives, rather than the positives, and the impact is tremendous.
    What's worse than an innocent kid being shot while playing?
     I have to agree that stiffer penalties need to be imposed for shooting
    incidents. If you ran over a pedestrian in the street with your car,
    you'd be held accountable in some fashion, why not the same
    accountability while hunting?
     Why is it that in Maine, if you shoot a moose, you're automatically
    liable for somthing like a thousand dollar fine AND up to a year in
    Jail, and yet if you waste another human being, you lose your hunting
    license for X numbers of years? Just dosn't seem to balance out to me.
    
    Bob

This is more info on my previous note.  The hunter who shot the kid is 
being charged with Manslaughter (if I remember the radio report 
correctly).

As for .-2, I agree with you.  All the hunters I hunt with and know 
would never shoot at bushes moving or any of the other ridiculous 
things we always seem to hear about.  The bad thing is that the anti's 
use these few examples to paint a grim picture of hunters to anyone 
who may not hunt but may not be an anti, either.

Case in point - one of the guys I work with who doesn't hunt came up 
to me the other day after the news report and said "Did you hear where 
another hunter shot a kid?  I can't believe you guys who just shoot at 
bushes..."  He was joking with me, but he was serious in that he felt 
outraged that the kid was killed.  I took it as an opportunity to tell 
someone who doesn't hunt that the majority of hunters would be outraged 
as well, and that there were many times I had passed up shots at what I 
KNEW were deer but didn't have a good, killing shot, etc..  It's not that 
he didn't know these things about me, but if he's talking to someone else 
about this who starts slamming "hunters" in general, he might be able 
to straighten them out.

Scott

Good news, or at least I think it's good news.  Georgia has a law 
called the Fritz Williams law or something like that that says if a 
hunter kills someone while hunting he has to be charged with a felony. 
The law was named for Fritz or whoever because he got shot by another 
hunter.  The wording of the law says that if a hunter shoots someone 
else throught gross inattention to safety or not following safe 
practices that he gets charged with manslaughter.  

Other info that was in the paper - there have been 6 fatalities in 
Georgia this year attributed to hunting accidents.  2 were people 
falling out of tree stands, and the other four were killed from being 
shot.

Sorry that I've carried on about this for so long - I guess this just 
pushes all my buttons....

Scott

    re:.59
    
    what about stray bullets that kill someone??? Course then again if it
    was a stray they'd probably never know who took the shot anyway, nor
    would the shooter know himself.
    
    Fra

      There was a fatality in Vt this year during hunting season, down
    around Barre, I believe. The guy saw something moving that he be-
    leived to be a small animal, and shot at it. He saw something red
    fall, and found out it was a hunter. He left the area in a hurry,
    and wandered around the woods for a while. Finally he wen back to 
    the body and hollered for help. When the police showed up he still 
    didn't admit that he did it. The investigation led to him, and he 
    finally confessed to it. I'm not sure what he was charged with, but 
    I believe it was involuntary manslaughter. Rreceived a minimum sen-
    tance and gave up his right to ever hunt again. Sounds like he got
    off too easily. I'll check the article again tonight, just to make 
    sure I got the facts straight.
    
    -Ron-

	  Here is the story about the hunting accident that occurred
	in Vermont this year during deer season. It was taken from
	the Sunday (12/10) edition of the Burlington Free Press.


	--------------------------------------------------------------

	    "Groton man pleads no contest to manslaughter"

	  James O Crowley, 49, of Groton has pleaded no contest to a 
	manslaughter charge stemming from last month's shooting death
	of a hunter in Groton State Forest.

	  Crowley entered his plea Thursday in Vermont District Court
	in St Johnsbury as part of a plea agreement that calls for a
	one-to-five-year jail sentence with all but 90 days suspended.

	  The agreement was struck with the Caledonia County State's
	Attorney Dale Gray. The maximum possible sentence for manslaugh-
	ter is 15 years in jail and a $3000 fine.

	  It was Crowley who reported the November 12 death of 21-year-
	old Jeffery Maurais to police, but he initially denied any role 
	in the shooting, according to authorities. Court records say that
	Crowley changed his story after police matched a bullet casing
	from his gun with one that was found near Maurais' body.

	  In his later statements to police, Crowley said that while he
	was hunting, he saw a grayish-colored object that he mistook for
	a coyote or another small animal. He was unable to see exactly 
	what the object was, even through his rifle scope, but shot at it
	anyway, court records say.

	  After seeing something red fall to the ground, Crowley discover-
	ed Maurais' body. Maurais of East Barre had been hunting from a
	tree stand, police said.

	  A police affidavit says that Crowley wandered through the woods
	for a while after discovering the body, then returned and began to
	call for help. Hos shouts were answered by another hunter.

	  The Groton Fire and Rescue Team responded and took Maurais to
	Ricker Funeral Home in Woodsville, NH, where he was pronounced dead.
	The bullet went through his head, court records say.

	  According to the plea agreement, Crowley must also agree to give
	up his hunting license for the rest of his life and to reimburse
	Maurais' family for burial costs.

	-------------------------------------------------------------------


	  To me, this seems like a real light sentence for the crime. Not
	to mention the fact that this "hunter" shot without first positively
	identifying his target. He thought it was a coyote (or something),
	but the article also says that the victim was hunting from a tree
	stand. Personally, I have never seen a coyote in a tree. More bad
	press for hunters.

	-Ron-
    

    
    
    	I'll bet that James O. Crowley never had a hunter's safety course!
    The way I understand it, if you have a previous license, you can get 
    another.  So.... if this guys been idiotizing the woods all along,
    how's he going to start thinking differently, unless of course they
    made it a Mandatory hunter safety course!  By looking at his age,
    it appears that he might have slipped through the cracks.
    	Besides, if he really wanted to hunt bad enough, he could just go 
    to another state, or could he?
    
    							- Rob