Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Paul-
    
     I have a 20 gauge shotgun now. I am planning on getting a 12 gauge
    when I can afford one. I think that for all around shooting, a 20
    gauge is somewhat limited and a 12 is a better choice. The reason I
    have a 20 gauge now is because I bought it when I was 15, and I was
    afraid of the recoil of a 12.
    
    The Doctah

     If your going to buy "the perfect shotgun"  I'd go with a 12ga,
    3.5" chambered Citori.  With this gun you could sucessfully hunt
    everything from deer, geese to woodcock.  The loadings available
    would let you shoot from the heaviest 12ga loads which rival some
    10ga recipes to real light 12 which are similar to a mediocre 20ga.
    The two barrels combined with invector chokes would give you the
    ultimate in versatility.  A gun such as this can be had for around
    $950.00.  I'd look for one in a 26" barrel.
                                  
    Jeff

	Doubtful that anything can match the versatility of the 12 gauge,
	and that being based on what is does, how it does it and the
	availability of factory fodder.  I'm prone to pumps (and 870s at
	that).

	But ... given the choice based on what you said in .0 (60% upland
	& 30% rabbits), I doubt you'd feel any lack with the 20.  You
	may wish you had a 12 for the ducks & turkey.  

	Coyote with a shotgun?  ha!  Real men use a .243  ;-)

	AA

	wish I could justify an over & under 20 to compliment my 870/12 ga

    I agree with .3 on the versatility with of the 12GA. I have a Browning
    BPS and have been very successful with it. I also have a Citori
    20GA O/U. If I am hunting partridge, pheasants or rabbits, I prefer
    it primarily for the light weight. I would not use it for deer or
    even turkey. I shoot skeet with the 20GA... it is less expensive
    for reloading and has less recoil than the 12GA. In any case, I
    like the Brownings and for versatility the 12GA.

    I used a 20ga. on Pheasants one year. Forget it. I switched to a 
    Remington 870 12ga. 3" magnum pump. I'd say the 12ga. is the better all
    around gun. You can get one a K-Mart for about $275.00. 
    
    Jim

    	Wow! This conference is more active than I imagined. Thanks for the
    quick replies. You are mostly confirming my gut feel that the 12 ga is
    the way to go.
    	Regarding the Remington. I like them, but one of the major reasons
    I decided on the Browning is that I'm left handed and it ejects out the
    bottom. I realize that Remington makes a left handed version but I
    prefer a neutral gun...my kids can use it when they get bigger. I've
    already run into this with a left handed bolt action I have.
    	Regarding coyote hunting, Maine has a special season when night
    hunting is allowed for coyotes but its shotgun only.
    	
    Thanks Again,
    Paul 

    Jeff, have you tried the 3 1/2 inch 12 ga?  One of my hunting partners
    recently purchased the Mossberg 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge.  My 3" 12 guage
    has been big enough for me.  I didn't have any problems dropping geese
    with it last year, so I'm not sure why you need anything bigger.
    
    I'd like to hear your opinion, since everyone knows your the goose
    expert in these parts...
    
    Mark,
    

    Mark,
    
    What is your buddy's opinion so far on the Mossberg?  Some local
    salesman tried to sell me one the other day when I picked up my
    state stamps.  
    
    Mark.

    Paul, the first year it was shotguns only. It is now rifles too.

    Mark,
    
      To be honest, my opinion is that if you can shoot well, you should
    be able to consistantly drop geese with a moderate load of BB's in
    a 12ga.  If you can't shoot, it doesn't matter what you use.  I
    think that the 3.5" shell is a good compromise for those who _think_
    you need a cannon for geese.  10ga. are too heavy for my taste.
    My "goose gun" is a 12 ga. Citori with 3" chambers bored IC and
    MOD.  I use a 2.75" in the first barrel and 3" in the second.  When
    we could use lead I used deuces.                                    
    
    Jeff (Who this year finally got _exclusive_permission to hunt two 
          farms near his house that are absolutly _loaded_ with geese.)
    
    

    
    Another gauge you may look into is the 16, I believe it originally came
    out as a all purpose gauge, small enough to take woodcock, quail etc 
    and big enough for ducks, pheasant, deer.  The problem is finding
    one.
    
    I have used my 16 for pheasant, duck, woodcock, partridge and rabbit.
    Never had any problem with any of them. (Full choke, dropped a duck
    stone dead at about 40 yds, so its got the power).
    
    I believe they are fading fast in availability though.
    
    --Bob
    

    Re:.11
    
      Actually the 16ga. is on the rebound.  Browning again offers the
    16 in most of there models, as does many of the other major
    manufacturers.  The big problem with the 16 that I see is that there
    isn't alot of commercial loads available for this gun.  Last year
    there were few if any steel loads out there and the lead loads are
    relatively few.  Hopefully with it's gaining popularity the ammo
    folks will again offer a decent assortment of loads.
    
    Jeff 

    Late season grouse (long shots) would be tough with a 20.  I can
    hardly take them with my 12; I'd never get one with a 20.
    
    Dave

    I agree with Jeff on the 16 gauge ammo problem.  I really have to
    drive to find 16s for my gun.  And when you do find them, you pay
    for them.  I'm thinking of just ordering a factory case to cut down on
    the hassles.
    
    /brett

    Re .9>
    	Thanks Ron, I wasn't aware that you could use rifles as well. I've
    got a Savage Model 24 combination rifle/shotgun that I thought would
    make a good varmint/turkey gun but I haven't used it because I thought
    the rifle part made it illegal. Its .22 magnum over 20 ga.
    	Hmmm maybe I should dust it off.
    
    Paul

    I like the 20 - the gun is lighter, the recoil is less.
    With 3" magnum loads it is 'close' to the mid-range 12's.
    (I have taken a turkey with one, and a deer, but it's light
    for those. Buckshot in 20ga. is bullsh*t IMHO.) If small and
    upland game is your main use, go with the twenty.
    
    The 12ga. 3 1/2 chambers were designed, as I recall, for steel
    shot, which is lighter per unit volume. If you need a 10, buy
    a 10.

    RE: .8, I don't think my friend has hunted with his new Mossberg
    yet.  I will let you know latter in the season.
    
    Jeff, you are right that missing with a cannon is no more effective
    than missing with a slingshot.  Before you slay ALL the geese in
    New England, please remember to leave one for me to chase :-)
    
    Mark,
    

    
    RE the 16 guage;
    
    I have a Browning 16 Gauge, Model 11, semi-auto, improved cyl. #8's
    
    I just finished a weeks worth of grouse/rabbit/woodcock in Pittsburg
    N.H., again it was a perfect gun.  I have used my 12 and literally
    had to wait for game to get further away before firing (to avoid
    obliviation/hamburg) - not fun.
    
    I do have to search for the ammo occasionally, but when I do find
    it I just buy an extra box or two (the local store Young's in Pittsburg
    was out of 12 and 20 shells, but had plenty of 16's!!) anyway it
    has been a nice upland hunting gun, and fires a slug nicely.
    
    I do plan on using my 12 for ducks/geese for that full choke 50
    yard shot ;-)....
    
    Erik

	I'm not sure if the issue is gauge or choice of ammo. I've switched
	from a 12 to a 20 because I was destroying more pheasants than
	it was worth. But I've noticed that you can destroy a pheasant
	just as bad with a 20 depending on your ammo choice. For instance
	3" MAG 1 1/4 oz #4's are DEADLY on pheasant ;-) ;-).. On the other
	hand I've killed pheasants quite successfully with 7/8 oz 6's in
	the 20.

		I like the 20 mostly because of weight. A 12 gauge gets
	mighty heavy trudging over blow-downs or through thich brush most
	of the day. 

	But if you're looking for the "all-around" gun then the 12 is the
	choice. Especially if you "roll your own" as you can load 7/8 oz.
	for woodcock and/or quail or go with the 1 1/2 for Turkey or
	Buckshot of various sizes, or, or ,or..... The list goes on & on..


			The choice is obvious ;-)


					Get what you can afford....


							~Mike~

    	Thanks for the info. Since one gun has to do it all, I went with
    the 12ga - 3". I looked at the 3 1/2" but thats a real canon. It must
    weight an additional 2 lb and it costs about $100 more.
    	Maybe next year if the wage freeze thaws I'll get a 20 as well.
    Thanks Again,
    Paul

    re: load for 16ga being hard to find.
    
    	Can't tell you where to find it on the west coast.  But, for the
    previous 12yrs, I've used nothing but a 16ga and have always found 
    load at Spags.  Hummmmmm.  Maybe I couldn't find the steel last year and
    that's why I'm using my brother 12ga.  Don't remember if I have steel
    for the 16ga or not now that I think about it.
    
    
    	Bryan

    
    	I have been extremely impressed at the selection
     of ammo at ARMCO in West Boylston/Worcester on Rt 70.
     All gauges, great variety of shot sizes, and the prices
     weren't bad either. 

    Steel and 16ga.  FWTW...
    
    I just called ARMCO.  They have 16ga steel 2s and 4s 11.00.  
    
    Spags did not have steel for 16ga last week.
    
    Bryan

    Do some states restrict the use of 20 gauge rifled slugs for deer,
    i.e., require the use of 12 or 16 gauge slugs?
    
    Mike