Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    See Note 88.

    Thanks Rick I hadn't looked at the replies on that note. I just
    did a dir on the main topics to see if the subject had been brought
    up yet. 
    
    Still would like to know if anyone has ever looked into changing
    the law and what it would take to get it changed.

    
    Re:2
    
    Thou I'm from N.H. I certainly would like to get the Mass Law changed.
    My brother Guy and I was speaking of this very topic Sat. Night
    and the only way that it could be done is if the 80,000 plus Deer Hunters
    who hunt Mass get organized. Taking the proper steps within the
    law and political arena and proving in black and white the distance
    factor of a rifled-shotgun barrell and rifled-muzzle-loader barrell
    VS. the Smoothbores you might have a chance, it a long road thou
    and the Mass resident will have to stick it out.
    
    The other side of the coin and this is my opinion is the state could
    say "THE Primitive Firearms season is this or that with this type
    "PRIMITIVE Weapon ONLY-- Do you see what I mean. All can hope for
    is the PEOPLE rule in this country not the Fed-Govt or State Govt.
    
    I bet thou if you had enough support from fellow hunters you would
    then pick up some big Manufacuers for backing also for the simple
    reason is a large market for rifled slug barrels in Mass if they
    were legal and if you were not restricted to Smoothbores only I,m
    sure that market would pick up also,because you now have a choice
    of a 45cal. 50. in different styles that are not made in the .56cal
    S.B.
    
    Nuff for now..
    See Ya,
    Rick

    I just talked to a guy from Mass. Fish and Game and he said that the 
    issue over rifled caplocks will be coming up in the spring before
    an open meeting. He said the date and time of the meeting will be
    published in the major newspapers and that I could call him in April
    to find out the date if I miss the one in the paper. PLEASE DON'T
    forget this if your interested in changing the law. WE don't
    want to miss this one. It would be nice to have a group go to the
    meeting to voice our side of the issue. We could use a good calm
    well manored speader also. I'm not good at that kind of thing. But
    I am willing to keep things organized and keep everyone informed.
    How many of you Mass hunters are interested?
                                      

    You could ruin a good thing!  Imagine how many more hunters you'll
    run into if they changed the law to rifled caplock?  I think that
    the only reason we have the woods to ourselves is because relatively
    few people are willing to invest in a special gun/barrel for only
    a 3 day hunt.  I am a NH resident and purchase a non-resident license
    every year for the sole purpose of muzzleloading.  As a rule I won't
    waste my time trying to shotgun hunt down there.
    

    RE:.5 I don't think it will get that bad especially with the season
    being only 3 days as you pointed out.  ie: I hunt the muzzleloader 
    season in nothern New York which requires rifling. Archery and 
    muzzleloading are their only chance to take does, they have no 
    permits for the rifle season in the north. There are a few people out 
    there but not many. There is one particular spot that I go to where 
    during the muzzleloading season (which is a week long) you might 
    see a half a dozen cars along this particular stretch of dirt road 
    that must be around 10 miles long. Usually I find that blackpowder 
    people tend to hunt alone for the most part so I don't think there 
    were more than 6 to 9 people in a large area (you can walk 2 or
    more miles off either side of the road and not cross another road).
    Well this year we decided to try going there opening day of the
    rifle season since there didn't seem to be much hunting pressure
    there during blackpowder and maybe it wasn't a popular area to hunt.
    WRONG thing to do. I don't remember the exact count but we counted 
    somewhere in the range of 75 to 100 cars along the road and we didn't 
    cover the whole 10 miles. 
    	The point I'm trying to make in all this is that I'd like to have 
    a more accurate gun to use during the blackpowder season in Mass.. If 
    it only cuts my grouping down by a 1/2 inch I'd like to have that
    extra edge to be a safer hunter with the possibility of a cleaner kill
    and I don't believe it will significantly increase the hunting
    pressure.
    	I've killed two deer with my 54 cal Renegade since I got it
    5 years ago. I have a great deal of confidence in it. I'd like to
    build a nicer more authentic rifle sometime in the future and also
    don't feel I should be penalized with a smoothbore because I prefer the 
    caplock system over the flintlock.          
    
    Sorry to be so long winded. I like having the woods to myself too.
    It's a great feeling being out there with just the animals and the
    trees. I wouldn't risk losing that and don't think this will hurt.
    
    Good and Safe Hunting
    
    Respectfully
    John
                

    re.6
    All good points and I respect your opinion.  I just happen to know
    several individuals that claim that they would hunt in Mass if they
    didn't have to go off and buy a new barrel/gun.  The way I see it
    every NH resident that hunts down there must also know several
    individuals that say the same thing etc, etc, etc,.
    
    Maybe if I cripple a deer with it someday I'll change my tune.....
    and I have to admit that it is a true miracle that that hasn't happened
    yet!  So far we've had either clean kills or clean misses.  LUCK?
    
    I hate the smooth bore at the range.  Nothing beats a .50 or .54
    maxi-ball but I've grown fond of the .50 round-ball barrel that
    I picked up for Connecticut which only allows round balls (another
    silly law).  Its very accurate and flat shooting.

    Dave, I'll meet you at the game dinner. We'll talk some more.
    
    We had 4" of snow last night at my house in Hatfield, Ma. and I
    heard  they had about 7" out in Blandford. It's supposed to get
    colder and stay that way through the weekend. With any luck we'll
    have snow on the ground for Monday morning "Blackpowder Season".
    
    Good Luck
    John

    I find that most of the shooting I have had, and most of the deer
    I have seen but not shot at, were heard within shooting distance
    of my bow (anywhere between 0-45 yds).  This is very weather dependent,
    crunchy snow/frozen leaves would more than double this distance.
    
    My smoothbore barrel allows me good accuracy out to 75-100
    yards, which is within the distances I previously mentioned.
    Attempting shots at game with a muzzleloader past 100 yards is in
    my mind neither sporting or intelligent, your pushing the firearm
    past its useful purpose, not to mention the possibility of crippling
    game.  
    
    Having a rifled barrel is not a critical issue, the accuracy 
    improvement at these distances (75-100 yds) is negligible,
    having a rifled barrel would only allow people to take longer shots
    with more accuracy, lets not forget about the velocity/energy left
    at these ranges.    
    
    Fra

    What range are you guys shooting at that you are surprised that
    "you haven't had any cripples yet"? 
    
    I agree that the limitation of smoothbore caplock is stupid! But
    more from the standpoint of allowing a rifled barrel flint. Once
    the ignition process is completed, whatever drawbacks hunting with
    a flint pose, are gone! So, it seems to me that the limitations
    should be the same for both guns concerning the rifling!
    
    I haven't shot a rifled 54, but from seeing the ballistics difference
    between it and 56 cal. smooth, I'd definetly take the 54, given
    the choice! I'd also like the option of something different than
    the T/C's  seeing that there the only popular/available option in
    smoothbore.
    
    Yet, back to accuracy I find it hard to believe that with open sights
    at ranges of 50 to 75 yds, there is any difference in accuracy.
     
    I'll tell you right now that with my 56 sb, I shoot more consistant,and
    better groups than with my Rem. 870 with the slug barrel open sights.
    So I'm confident that the 56 will do the job, with a well placed
    shot at a reasonable range.
    
    Again, I don't agree with the state F+G or whomever else might argue
    that the big advantage to the rifled barrel is the accuracy edge!
    I don't believe that at ranges that are reasonable with open sights
    that the accuracy advantages of rifling, are even a factor!
    
    Just my 2 cents!

    I groused about this at length in ::firearms many moons ago.
    I have since resigned myself to using my T/C when hunting
    Mass BP season. After all, I'd haul damn near anything to
    get three extra days of either-sex hunting!
    
    But it still bothers me that we are being dictated rules that
    are generally stupid and have no technological basis. I can
    agree (in part) to shotguns over rifles in *some* parts of Mass.
    I just have a hard time getting behind rules that dont make any
    sense....and that are exclusive to Mass. Are perhaps the 49
    other states missing something?
    
    Now I gotta admit my 56 smoothie shoots just fine, thank you.
    I have always hated the thing because its an anchor, though. I
    solved that problem by chopping it down to 20". I always hated
    double triggers in the woods, so I swapped stocks with a new
    T/C Hunter 50 cal. I hated the Renegade sights, so I peeped it.
    I now have a gun that stands me about $300.....but its a nice
    gun to hunt with (finally). And it groups well, too. But, not
    having to deal with the smoothbore -law-, I would really rather
    hunt with my 58 H+R Stalker...or one of many other guns I like.
    
    So thats the biggest burr under my saddle. I have hunted the Mass
    BP season for years, and I like the peace and quiet. Whatever it
    takes to be there, I'll do it. But I really dont like having my
    choices narrowed down to one particular gun...for no particular
    reason.
    
    Also, don't forget that many folks feel that round balls are
    cripplers/wounders. If you hit bone, it does fine...if you hit
    soft tissue only, round balls can go clean through without enough
    shock power to put the deer down.......or enough of an exit wound
    to get a good blood trail. For this reason alone, rifled barrels
    should be allowed to accomodate mini/maxie balls, Buffalo Bullets,
    etc. Not only does the Ma law stipulate smoothbore, it also clearly
    states "a single round ball only". (Not that a mini ball would do
    you any good in a smoothie anyway...Catch-22).
    
    I general, I feel much more confident hunting the NH blackpowder
    season with a rifled 58 and a miniball than in Mass with my T/C.
    
    Dana
    

    I'm not to crazy bout the law myself, and if I had the choice I
    definately would have gone with a rifled barrel, not specifically
    for the accuracy but more for the variety in projectiles.
    
    What I was trying to say was, at the distances i've been seeing
    the deer (0-50 yds), a rifled barrel would'nt make a noticeable
    difference over the smoothie.
    
    I guess the politicians feel that if you shoot a flinter than
    you should at least have a rifled barrel, the ignition system being
    the handicap, and if you shoot a caplock, you should be handicapped 
    by a smoothbore...  dosn't make a whole lot of sense...  These people
    must think its a piece of cake to nail a deer.
    
    can't wait for monday... Fra                  

    Re: .12
    
      Ever shoot at a running deer in the 50-60 yard range?  You have
    to lead the deer by a mile to hit it.  Probably be better off putting
    the ball in an envelop and mailing it!  8^)
    
      Check out the ballistics manual that T/C includes with their guns.
    My Ruger Old Army pistol shoots about as fast as a .56 SB.
    
      I treat the .56SB like my bow and that means understanding its
    limitations (and mine as well) and that may be the only reason why
    I haven't crippled one yet.  As mentioned in another reply, I too
    have tried to make the best of it by changing the sights, removing
    the set trigger, and cutting off all the scrollwork on the trigger
    guard (which caught on my clothing and spoiled a shot once).
    
    And Fra, isn't your turbocharged bow faster than the SB anyways
    8^)
    
    
    -Dave

    re:.13
    
    I must be either typing with marbles in my mouth or your deaf ;^)
    
    what i said and i'll repeat it again is, that at these distances
    and under the circumstances i've seen deer this year I think a rock
    could have killed most of the deer I saw.... guess i just can get
    closer to them than you can dave.... ;^) 
    
    yes I have shot at a running deer, yes the smoothbore is slightly
    slower, but i'm not making 100 + yard shots either, I know my
    limitations and the guns, and i hunt accordingly.
    
    Fra

    I have to agree that out to 50 yds. the advantage of the rifle is
    minimal. Yet I think when you get out to 75-100 yd area the rifle
    definitely is more accurate, for the flinter or the caplock. The
    smoothbore has the same range though. So, if your going to give
    the 75 yard shot to the flintlock you should also give it to the
    caplock.
    	When I was talking to the F&W rep he said that the F&W board
    does listen to what people have to say. Just to show that that is
    true, it was a friend of mine and four of his friends that went
    to the board origanally to get the blackpowder season started in
    Mass. (Just 5 people). I think we need to show that there is some
    interest, in changing the law,  by showing up at the meeting and 
    speaking our piece.
    
    Good luck to everyone monday,
    
    John