Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Sometimes I actually enjoy arguing with antis.  They rarely, if
    ever have any facts to back up there rantings, so there easy pickings
    in a debate.  I like to use the veggie line also.  Tell them that
    by paying a butcher they are in reality hiring a mercenary to do
    there dirty work.  Ask them what is crueler, a steer getting a sledge
    hammer between the running lights or a deer getting shot.  Ask them
    how much money THEY contribute to wildlife.  Then explain about
    DU, The RuffedGrouse Society, and Pheasants Unlimited.  Also explain
    how the Pittman-Robertson Act works.  Then tell them to pound sand!
                                                                      
    Jeff

    Well, we have all met them. I live in the country, and some of the
    biggest anti's are the city people who own vacation homes at the
    lake I live on. Their so stupid when it comes to wildlife its
    unbelievable. They let their dogs run deer on the week-ends that
    they come up on, and one guy paid my neighbor $1000 to find his
    doberman's that where lost out in the woods running deer.  
    I got hasseled for ice fishing last year by a woman who I thought
    was just walking out on the ice with her friend to be friendly. 
    She came over to me to ask what I was doing, she then seen a dead 
    shinner on the ice and she asked her friend to help her put a bylaw 
    in our association's rule book to ban ice fishing. She never did
    it, but it just goes to show the ignorance of some people.

    Jim

    
    RE:0
    
    Walt,
    
    Ive been running into these people all my life Grrrrrr. I'm glad
    you kept a level head and was polite. It seems that when I keep
    a level head and explain the facts these people get angry probably
    cause they can't get to us, also by doing this when other people
    are around the anti with the big-mouth is looked at of somewhat
    of an A**hole thats a trouble-maker if you know what I mean.
    
    As far as DEC people go, You know that new program that DEC has,
    "Valuing Differences" I just tell them,"Hey, how about Valuing MY
     Difference.... They say humana,humana,humana..
    
    See Ya,
    
    Rick
    

    	Another good ploy is ask them if they know what the biggest
    killer of wildlife is. Then tell them about habitat and developers.
    Ask if they fight the destruction of habitat by developers. If
    not tell them that if they REALLY cared about animals,that they'd
    do their homework.
    
    	George

    296.4  think your response is excellent!
    
    I also feel that I am a hunter and I like the sport and by keeping
    a low profile about what I like to do and hiding it from those who
    disagree with me would sort of make me feel like a low life for
    not stating to them why I believe. I don't mean to go looking for
    trouble, what I do mean is that if we continue to hide in a corner
    and not try to reason with those who are not Literate to the fact,
    than we might as will kiss the sport good bye some day, cause we
    are basicly doing what they want us to do and that is don't state
    what we believe. I don't know of any other way we can help the
    cause better than to try to educate those who really don't understand
    what it is all about. There are some who really won't let you
    explain, would seem to have all the answers and as much as I would
    want to stay right there and continue to go, sometimes it is best
    to walk away. This is just my 2 cents, since I have expeneced this
    more than once and would like to say that I have edcuated some and
    feel good about it.
    

    re:0
    
             Excellent subject Walt. I think people who are out there
    giving us hunters a hard time should drop off the face of the earth.
      If they could understand the facts about wildlife " mabey " they
    would even give it a try. The stories seem to be the same no matter
     who you talk to. "someone approches me and starts giving me sh*t
      about hunting" I hate these people with a passion.
    
       I wish they would have an open season on these ANTI'S.........
    
    
       I'm sure feelings are mutual out there???
    
    
         jeff
    

    
    Even though I wasn't successful this past season I was still called
    a "Bambi Killer" by people I have to deal with at work.  I'm trying
    to find that excellent reply someone added to a note a few months
    ago that is sort of a story...it's about an old guy who confronts
    an anti in town and goes on to tell how the story of Bambi has been
    misinterpreted over the years.  I don't know if this was in the
    HUNTING notesfile or FIREARMS, I've searched both...since I don't
    remember the author of the reply, or the base note I haven't had
    much luck finding it.  Does anyone know where this reply is?
    
    I find it really frustrating having to defend myself all of the
    time.  I get a little upset having to justify my actions.  It amazes
    me how most of the anti's don't really understand, or want to take
    the time to understand, what "wild" means...it's tough out there in
    the wild, it may seem like bad medicine to the uneducated, but it's the only
    answer for me....besides I enjoy the challenge.  If somehow we could
    purge ourselves of all the "unethical" garbage that ultimately gets
    blamed on "hunters" it may be easier to justify.  Just driving down
    the back roads of Vermont will, if you look hard enough, give you
    a bad feeling seeing all of the roadsigns shot up, the telephone
    line markers etc....
    
    Kevin
    

    I put that story in this notes file.  It's extracted from Deer and
    Deer Hunting Magazine.
    
    See note 203.0
    
    Mark.

    Walt, you did just the right thing.  I don't think we as hunters
    can afford to keep a low profile.  I think it is much better to
    know the facts and keep cool (as you did).  Let the Anti's make
    jerks of themselves.  That's exactly the kind of PR we need.
    
    I guess I'm fortunate that the people I work with aren't anti's,
    because I'm always vocal about my hunting and don't get any
    grief here.  They do think I'm a little wierd.  They cann't quite
    figure out why I spend all my free time sitting in trees,
    or lying down in frozen corn stubble fields, or canoeing in the
    middle of December....but that's OK with me :-)   
                           
    Mark,
    

    
    
     I've found that in most cases it is blatant hypocricy on the part
    of the anti's concerning the "meat eating" question and can usually 
    silence them by pointing that out.
     However, the most interesting and most disturbing conversation I've
    had with an anti is with one who's a vegetarian. He stated that he 
    didn't believe that there should be any effort at conservation at
    all. This is after I explained the role of hunting, fishing
    and trapping as wildlife management tools (license fee monies, Pittman
    Robertson, data gathered from tagging, etc.) and that wild game was
    a resource to be managed and harvested. He told me that he objected to 
    killing of any sort and would rather see a species become extinct
    than see an animal be killed by hunting, fishing or trapping.
     Having kept my cool so far during the conversation (we'd been talking
    for 2 hours) I didn't want to lose it at this point. I simply told
    him that I felt we should end the conversation and simply agree
    to disagree. He ended by saying that he thought that I was unreasonable
    and was just into killing for killing's sake. I simply told him
    that I had already stated why hunting etc. was beneficial to wildlife
    and that quite frankly I enjoyed it, in fact it was my favorite passtime.
    I then walked away. I didn't change his mind, but I said my piece
    and didn't "lose it", and I felt good about that.
     The mindset of the anti hunting (anti-conservation, really) crowd
    can be summed up by the old saying "Nothing is so firmly believed as
    that which least understood".       
    
     This guy also doesn't believe people should own guns (big surprise,
    right). I'll bet he voted for Dukakis.
     
    

    
    thanks for the reply's guy's. there is more to this story but i
    did'nt want it to get to long. re.04 great idea! i never thgought
    to bring up the subject of developers. i bet this woman was one
    of the ones who just build a brand new house where the deer once
    roamed. i have to tell you not to give up entirely on the anti's,
    my girlfriend was once an anti. however she just bought me a new
    hunting knife to skin my deer with. (when i get one of course) and
    she bought me some other odds and ends as x-mas presents. she says
    she just did'nt understand wildlife and how hunters actually helped
    and not hurt the population of animals. as for my co-workers i found
    out not one of them is an anti and they all wished me luck for the
    rest of the season. it made me feel good. 
    
    good luck to all.
                  walt
    
    
    
    

    Re: .10
    
    Omygawd.....a vegatarian!  You mean they eat vegatables!  Don't
    they know that plants scream when you pick fruit from them.
    There is a note in SOAPBOX titled PLANT'S RIGHTS.  These people
    think it is cruel to eat fruits and vegatables (yes, they are
    dead serious).  If we listened to ALL these people we would starve.
    
    ;-)                            
    

            I once  worked  with  a  guy  who would harrass me insecently
         about hunting deer.  He was from NY City.  At first I thought it
         was funny when  he  commended  me  for eliminating "those roving
         hoard of attack deer that scare/eat defenseless children playing
         in their yards".   After  awhile it got real old, biting sarcasm
         makes your face hurt, you  can't  smile  any  longer even if you
         wanted to.  He did make  a  mistake  though and gave me a little
         humerous fuel for my encounters with other anti-hunt persons.
            
            His previous boss was  a  hunter  and  used to handle remarks
         this way:
            
            Antis: "How can you shoot those deer?"
            
            Reply: "You just got to lead 'em a little bit"!  8^D

            Brian

    That reminds me of the time a friends girlfriend asked me after
    a heated discussion on hunting. "Yea, but where are you going to
    shoot deer around here anyway?"  To which I replied, "Right behind
    the shoulder, hopefully"  
    
    Jeff 

    I have also encountered the "humorous" ribbing, which gets old after
    a while, "How could you kill innocent birds?"  But luckily there
    are several hunters in my group, so it isn't all against one.
    I don't have a problem with a vegetarian saying they are against
    killing animals for food, but since *many* more cattle are slaughtered
    each year than deer taken by hunters, why aren't they out railing
    against the meat industry.  Also there are animal byproducts in
    so much of what we use, not just food, that it is hard to believe
    that a person could avoid using them even if they wanted to.
    	Linda

    Even the vegetarians are hypocritical, though in a different way.
    How many of them wear leather products? How many of them have furs?
    The only way to not use animals for any purpose is to wear only
    synthetic materials and cotton. What do vegetarians wear on their
    feet? Leather or rubber or naugahyde. Even if someone wears all
    synthetic products, the byproducts that are spawned during the
    manufacturing of the synthetic material are usually jettisoned
    haphazardly into the environment, thus deteriorating habitat for
    the very animals these self-righteous individuals claim to be
    protecting. The simple fact is that it is nearly impossible to preclude
    the use of dead animal parts in daily living. Those who start their
    holier-than-thou spiel should be casually reminded of this fact.
    
    The Doctah

Given all the additives that the meat industry adds to meat before and
after the butchering and the problem of high cholesterol in the meat, one
could say that all you're trying to do is get some "organicly grown,
low-cholesterol meat" on the table.  That's a line I've been using
recently. 


Fight 'em with facts...

		The sportsmens contribution 1980-1981

Through hunting licenses, excise taxes and duck stamps, 17.4 million 
licensed hunters contribute $300 million for wildlife and habitat 
conservation, hunter safty programs and funding of state fish and game 
departments.

Since 1923, American hunters have contributed well over $4 BILLION to 
wildlife conservation projects including the purchase of over 3.25 million 
acres as wildlife reserves, the cultivation of such game species as deer, 
beaver, antelope, elk, quail, mountain sheep, wild tyurkeys, water fowl and 
many other non-game species.


This is from the NRA firearms facts card, get yours today!

Rich

    	Yeah,, now let's ask the anti's for matching funds!!
    

    While were on the subject of matching funds, anyone know how I would
    go about getting DEC to match DU contributions?
    
    Jeff

    Talk to your PSA for the appropriate form. DEC will match the funds
    you contribute up to $1000 if the organization falls under 501(c)3
    of the IRS of the Treasury dept. If DU is non-profit, you should
    be able to get DEC to match funds.
    
    The Doctah

    Duck University - isn't that in North Carolina, part of the ACC,
     famous for basketball??? I don't see the problem with matching
     gifts from DEC.
    

   Don't forget to ask if they eat lobster. If they do, I usually ask them
how they can dip a living creature in boiling water. They usually don't have 
to much to say after that.

    
    	I for one have stopped trying to reason with anti's. We shouldn't
    	feel defensive about our interests in hunting and conservation.
    	I used to think that through reasoning, I could enlighten anti's
    	with all of the points about conservation, and keeping nature
    	in balance and the remaining nine yards. I have found that no
    	matter how polite, or how many good reasons you give them for
    	hunting, they will still disagree and remain hostile to you.
    	I don't go around telling anti's that they should hunt, and
    	they have no right to tell me I shouldn't. I can respect those
    	who don't believe in hunting as long as they don't try to impose
    	their values on me. I like best to smile and look at them as
    	though their lost in the woods and ignore them !!!!!!!
    	pat.
    

    re: .21 
    
    The Ducks are from the University of Oregon, commonly known as
    "the Webfoots".
    
    Brett.

    
      RE-19,20
    
      There is a note in the Firearms conference that covered the issue
     of DEC matching funds for DU.  If I remember correctly, they will
     will not match funds for this group.  You can find more details
     in note 710.*.
    
     Steve

I can't sit back and listen to the crap circulating through the local
    newspapers any longer.  The following is a copy of a letter I've
    written to a local paper in response to a column (not letter to
    the editor, but COLUMN).  Thanks to all for any input I've been
    able to gather from the file.
    
    
Seacoast Publications, Inc.
PO Box 4406, Parade Mall
Portsmouth, NH 03801

To the editor:

Here we go again.  It must be time for the annual anti-hunting tirade.

I am writing this letter in response to Doug Filaroski's December 1 Recreation
column, entitled "The Camouflage Controversy".  In his column, Mr. Filaroski 
quotes opposing views of deer and other sport hunting.  As is the case with most
of the public outcry against hunters that I've read, the arguments of the anti-
hunter is laced with much emotion, but very little fact.

The opposing voices of Mr. Filaroski's column belong to Judy Markey from the 
NHSPCA and Susan Sawtelle, nature lover, for the anti-hunting camp.  Scott 
Williamson, state wildlife biologist, spoke in support of deer hunting.

From what I could gather from the column, there are basically two issues being 
presented for argument.  The first deals with problems with hunting on private
property.  The second, focuses on hunting in general.

First of all, I do not take exception to Ms. Sawtelle's position on hunters 
trespassing on her land.  She has every right to post her land, and no ethical
sportsman would knowingly trespass on her property.  However, Ms. Sawtelle over-
steps her bounds as a Portsmouth landowner with her proclamation that "(she) 
thinks it's ridiculous in a city the size of Portsmouth to see men with guns 
walking around" and that "(she) wants people to know that this is no longer 
the happy hunting ground."  Who died and left Ms. Sawtelle in charge?  She, like
the rest of us taxpayers, has the right to express her opinion; however, to the
best of my knowledge there are proper methods of getting city ordinances est-
ablished.  Standing on a soapbox and making a public proclamation is not one of
these methods.

The second issue, which is essentially a condemnation of hunting, is supported 
by Ms. Markey of the NHSPCA and contested by Mr. Williamson.  I'm certain that
Ms. Markey and Ms. Sawtelle could be classified as nature lovers, and I'm 
equally certain that their reasons for speaking out against hunting are noble
reasons.  However, when Ms. Markey claims that "a hunter doesn't hunt the herd,
he hunts a single deer,"  and "it's a horrible way for that animal to die," she
fails to see the irony in her position.

I ask Ms. Markey, have you ever visited or seen pictures of a deer wintering
yard?  Have you ever seen the decimation of a deer herd by the cruel hand of 
mother nature?  You see, during the severest winter months, deer gather in small
areas and remain in these areas for the duration of this period.  While the 
larger deer have no problems feeding on the area vegetation, the smaller, less
aggressive deer cannot reach the higher branches.  When there is deep snow that
becomes trampled down, it becomes impossible for the deer to feed on acorns, 
beech nuts and other staples or their winter diet.  It doesn't take a genius to 
figure out that the more deer that winter in a given area, the less food becomes
available to sustain the herd during the winter.  As a result of this over-
crowding, the whole herd suffers.  Is this more humane than hunting?  Some 
people would argue that we should let nature take its course.  However, I assure
you that the slow, agonizing death due to starvation is a thousand times more 
horrible way for any creature to die.  Without a biologically-managed annual 
harvest of deer, we would see a population explosion of deer that would result 
in needless suffering due to starvation, thousands of deer being killed by 
automobiles (check out the number of deer killed in NJ and PA when you get 
time), and agricultural damage that could cost millions of dollars.

You want to start legislation to benefit deer and other wildlife?  How about 
proposing legislation to curb the rate of development?  Because of the recent
population boom in the state, thousands of acres that were formerly undeveloped
have been converted into spacious residential areas.  Now we've added to the 
overcrowding problem by pushing more deer into less area.  Do you get picture 
yet?

How much have the anti-hunters done for the preservation of wildlife habitat?
According to the NRA, since 1923, American hunters have contributed $4 BILLION 
to wildlife conservation projects, including the purchase of over 3.25 MILLION 
acres of wildlife reserves and the cultivation of such species as deer, beaver, 
antelope, elk, quail, mountain sheep, wild turkey, waterfowl and many non-game
species.  Through hunting licenses, excise taxes and waterfowl stamps, 17.4
MILLION hunters contribute $300 MILLION in 1980 and 1981 alone.  Again, how 
much have the anti-hunters done for the preservation of wildlife habitat?

The hypocrisy of the anti-hunting sentiment can sometimes be rather amusing.
How many anti-hunters enjoy an occasional steak, burger or filet of sole?  These
people feel that since they are so far removed from the killing process that 
the animal suffers less.  We don't hear these same people sounding off against
the meat industry, do we?  These people are horrified at the thought of a
person taking his or her own game, yet think nothing of throwing a live lobster
into a boiling pot of water.  Then there's the vegetarian anti-hunters who claim
that the killing of wild game is a terrible thing to do.  How many of these 
folks wear nice leather jackets or have a closet full of handsome leather 
shoes or other leather goods?  Do these people focus the same ire at the 
clothing industry as they do to the hunting populace?

Mr. Filaroski asserts that "no matter what the official ordinances or juris-
dictions are, the lines separating hunters and non-hunters will never be ab-
solute enough to satisfy both sides, especially when each apparently wishes
the other didn't exist."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Herein
lies the fundamental difference between the hunting and non-hunting sentiment.
While it may be true that non-hunters wish that hunters would cease to exist,
the majority of hunters that I know hold no grudge against these people.  We 
simply wish to be left alone.  

I respect and honor the right of non-hunters to pursue their interests.  I also
respect their freedom of choice.  Is it such a crime to expect the same in 
return?  


Mark Lefebvre
Portsmouth, NH
    

    
    mark, i could'nt have said it better myself. i just hope that the
    paper will find the space to print your letter. as with most letters
    i have written none are ever put into the paper to show a hunters
    viewpoint. 
    
   also on monday dec 11. on the PHIL DONAHUE show he had a show about
    hunting. his panel incuded a 13 year old hunter (boy) and his
    grandfather , a 12 year old girl who hunts with her father, a member
    of the NRA, some woman who is strickly anti-hunting and a psychiatrist.
    i only saw the last 15 minutes but from what i could get out of
    it was that if we take our children out into the woods at an early
    age (before 18) and teach them to kill then they will turn out to
    be killers. that was the psychiatrists point of view. i have been
    hunting since i could walk. i grew up with guns and hunting and
    learned to respect both. i have NEVER shot anyone on purpose or
    by accident. nor do i know of anyone who has. that is not to say
    that it does not happen. however why tell me how to run my life
    by the mistakes of others. is'nt this AMERICA  the land of the free,
    where we fought and others gave their lives so that we could have
    the freedom to do what we please as long as we hurt no one and broke
    no laws. it also never ceases to amaze me how year after year some
    reporter has to do a news story stating that hunting season is open.
    and of course it is usaually a biased stroy and we all look like
    killers. it's really to bad that these antis have to miss the many
    wonders that we have seen in the woods. the sun rising over a marsh
    with a flock of ducks flying far overhead. hearing the cackle of
    a pheasent as it explodes skyward. to see the beautiful whitetail
    deer in it's natural habitat, or to watch the light show that mother
    nature provides for us every day at sun down. to bad the antis mostly
    live in the city where the sun can't be seen after three o'clock
    because of smog or the tall buildings that destroy more land and
    animals than any hunters could ever do. we have to stand up for
    our rights and say yes i am a hunter or some day when we again turn
    our backs on their stupididty they will take our hunting rights
    away.
     sorry if this got to long or i had diarrea of the mouth. but i
    had to let it out.
                    walt
    
    
    
    

    I watched Donahue yesterday.  I thought the antis did a good job
    of making asses out of themselves.  Expecially the shrink.  He stated
    that it does irrepairable harm to a kids pschy if he learns to
    kill at an early age.  I have a real problem with this.  My Dad
    is a psychiatrist also!  He took us hunting at an early age and
    I have yet to rape or kill.  Some of my best childhood memories
    are of going hunting with my father and grandfather.  Does anyone
    else think Donahue is a jerk?                     
    
    Jeff

    re -2
    
    the Phil Donahue show was yesterday (not the 11th). I also thought
    the people representing the views of the hunters were controlled
    and logical and most of the opposition was pure emotion.
    
    Another comment on the "starvation is natural" argument. Has anyone
    ever seen an overbrowsed range? One of the problems with letting
    deer starve is before they finally do die they eat literally everything
    up to 5-6 feet. I saw it on a Naval base in Maryland (against the
    advice of the fish and game, no hunting was allowed until the jets 
    started to hit them on the runways). It took years (more than 10)
    for the range to recover where it could support a population of
    deer. 
    
    There are other examples in the Northeast. Take a walk
    through Quabbin some time. You'll notice a starting lack of
    undergrowth, directly attributed to the overbrowsing of the local
    deer population. Vermont in the late 60s is another good example.
    I think the range is just now recovering from that mentality.
    
    Guy
    

It was B-ea-uuuuu-tttt-iiiiiii-fff-uuuuuu-llllll !!!

	I was in Little George's, a local eatery, one  Sunday
morning. I was sitting at the counter minding my own eggs and
bacon.  Across from  me  were two gentlemen who were from the 
same Rod  and Gun club  just around  the corner. We knew each 
other  as fellow members but not personally. Just behind them
was a man  and  wife  team (I presumed).  As the  two  fellow
Sportsmen and I  were eating our fill the team was talking up 
a storm on the  anti-hunting subject loud enough so they were 
sure  the sportsmen  would hear.  I guess they  knew  we were 
sportsmen as most of us had on blaze orange hats.

	My two fellow  sportsmen continued  eating  their fill 
and enjoyed  an after meal cup of coffee. Just as the waitress 
placed the eggs and  ham breakfasts  in front of the anit-team 
the sportsman on the right gave me a wink and stood to leave.

	He walked over,  stood  in front of  the anti-team for
what seemed an eternity and just stared at  the food  on their 
plates. After a time he asked "are you really going to eat that? 
Looks  a lot like an abortion to me!! Dead unborn baby chickens 
smeared over a dead baby pig!!". With that he took his leave.

	The look that came over the anti-faces was something to 
behold!!  I myself wish he hadn't said that as I was sipping my
coffee, I must have spit that coffee a mile as I could no longer 
hold in the laughter. I  could no  longer continue  to eat. Ever
try to eat while rolling around on the floor?

	After  I  recomposed myself, I sat and  finished my meal 
and watched the Anti's try to eat their meal. How un-enjoyed they 
looked as they tried to eat thinking of what had been said.

	God it was good and "quiet" after that!!!

	;^)  :^)  8^0  |^)  :^)  ;^)


	Steve.

    re:-1
    
    I like that line, thats one of the better ones i've
    heard, i'll keep in mind to use it agaist the antis
    i run across,
    
    Tony
    

RE:< Note 296.26 by TSE::LEFEBVRE "Nothing personal" >

Good letter Mark, though I doubt it will be printed.  It seems too long for a 
paper.  For what it's worth I found one small mis-spelling (if you haven't 
already sent the letter).

>beech nuts and other staples or their winter diet.  It doesn't take a genius to 

should be...

beech nuts and other staples for their winter diet.  It doesn't take a genius to 


I really liked the line about the ham and eggs!


Rich

    Check the January Outdoor Life,The Last Laugh by McManus for an excelent 
    anti article. if you can read it without many belly rumbling laughs,
    you have NO sense of humor.
    
    
    Carl

    Well Sportsfans, not only did they print my letter, they featured
    it as a Guest Column.  This should get some interesting letters
    to the editor during the next few weeks.
    
    Mark.

    Great Mark! Sportsman deserve equal time!

    GREAT!  I am suprised, but certainly glad they printed it.  Thanks
    for taking the time to speak out for all of us.
    
    Mark,
    

    
    it's about time we were heard. it's too bad that most of the stuff
    heard on t.v or seen in the paper is anti-hunting. last night on
    A CURRENT AFFAIR  they featured a story on the town in GEOGIA(?)
    that made it a law to own a gun. the people interviewed looked like
    relics from an old hells angels movie, acted as if they had no mind
    at all. the weapons were all rambo style assault rifles. thee were
    no shotguns or rifles shown. the only pistols shown were a pair
    of 45's worn gunslinger style. what really pi$$ed me off the most
    was the airhead that said "THEY WON'T LET US HAVE ANY NUCLEAR MISSLES
    YET, BUT WE'RE WORKING ON IT". i think idiots like that do as much
    harm to us as the anti's do. 
    
                                    walt
    
    
    

    
    
    	re.37
    
    	Walt,
    
    	I saw that show too. What a crock of sh*t. Lousy Reporting.
    	I don't care that the town was "reported on" HOWEVER, what
    	they didi NOT report was:
    
    		1. Crime rate before /after the mandatory gun law
    	           went into effect.
    		
    	Also, they said less than 3% of the town people objected to
    	the law  and yet they gave one anti, about 50% of the airtime.
    
    	Thank God for this notefile (and also FIREARMS) as I do feel
    	like a "Leper" sometimes with all this "anti" propaganda, and it
    	sure is good to log into HUNTING and FIREARMS and feel
    	"comfortable"

      Last month some woman was arrested in Norwalk Connecticut for
    planting a radio controlled bomb next to the car of some executive
    to a company that uses dogs to develop/test medical equipment for
    closing wounds etc..  Anyway she was affiliated with some local
    chapter of Friends of Animals.  Police found a couple of other bombs
    at her home.  I wonder how much nationwide publicity this crime
    received?
    
    Dave

    Gather 'round, fellow sportsmen...I'd like to relate a *valuable*
    lesson I learned last night.
    
    Actually 3 lessons.
    
    I got a phone call about 8:00 from a guy who's voice I did not
    recognize.  He asked me if my name was Mark Lefebvre, and if I was
    the one who wrote the column in the newspaper.  I started to get
    a little nervous, not knowing what to expect, and wondering what
    kind of person would call someone at home over a newspaper column.
    
    Anyway, I figured what the heck.  I said, "yes, I'm the one who
    wrote the column.  What can I do for you?"
    
    Then he lays into me.  "What do you mean trying to tell us that
    you hunters are trying to protect the deer from themselves?"  (I
    guess this was in response to my argument about a biologically managed
    harvest to curb the overpopulation of deer).  He continued..."What
    do you think happened before we arrived on this continent?  Don't
    you think that there were natural predators like wolves and coyotes
    to naturally manage the herds?"
    
    Well, after I thought about the situation for a moment, I decided
    to hear him out.  If I would have hung up on him he would have either
    called me back, or he would have thought that I didn't think strongly
    enough about my convictions to stand up for them.
    
    I explained to him in a calm, non-defensive manner, that there was
    a lot more land back then, and that the amount of wilderness available
    for supporting deer is only a fraction of what it used to be.  He
    agreed with this, but went into a long story about how hunters are
    drunken bums, who think nothing about taking 10-12 deer during the
    year, litter, and basically care little about the environment. 
    Please note that his tone had become less and less threatening as
    our discussion continued.
    
    I explained that there are bad apples every group, and that the
    rest of the law-abiding, ethical sportsman have to suffer for the
    sins of a few.  I added that sportsman don't refer to these types
    as "hunters", but rather as "slobs".
    
    Then I told him a little about myself.  How I was a college educated
    professional who worked for a very large computer company.  I told
    him that my father, his father and brothers, all were brought up
    to respect the environment, to obey the game laws and above all,
    to show respect for the quarry.  I told him that when I go deer
    hunting, I hunt for 1 deer and 1 deer only.  I do not shoot grouse
    or waterfowl during deer season, because I personally am out for
    the challenge of stalking the whitetail.
    
    I told him that although it is legal to shoot many types of game,
    that I personally don't hunt anything that I wouldn't eat myself.
    When we go to deer camp, we don't drink.  We are in the rack at
    8:30 as we must rise at 4:00 to prepare for the days hunt.
    
    Finally, I told him that the reason I wrote the column was to take
    exception to the stereotype that we SPORTSMAN have taken  a rap
    for.  I purposely didn't attack the non-hunter.   I told him that
    for every slob I've come across in the woods, I've come across 2
    ethical hunters who are genuinely concerned for the environment.
    
    After about 30 minutes of conversation, the man told me, "You know,
    Mark...I'm glad I called you tonight.  You are in the minority of
    hunters that I've come across who approach your sport with that
    kind of attitude."
    
    I thanked him and added, "Well, I'd like to convince you that I'm
    not the minority, but rather the majority.  I'd like to think that
    if we ever met on the street, that we could sit, have a beer and
    discuss this issue like reasonable men."
    
    He agreed and apologized for bothering me at home.  I told him it
    was no bother, and I meant it.
    
    
    This turned out longer than I had hoped, but there were a few things
    that I learned from this.
    
    1. If we refrain from becoming sarcastic or defensive during our
    discussions with people, they just might listen to what we say.
    
    2. There is a SERIOUS education problem with the anti-hunting populace
    that we, as sportsman, bear much of the responsibility to overcome.
    
    3. We have to police our own.  There ARE allot of slobs out there
    who have the ability (without caring too much about it) to permanently
    eliminate sport hunting through their actions.
    
    
    Sorry for being long-winded.  I feel much better about myself as
    a sportsman this morning.
    
    Mark.
    
    

    Mark,
      Good for you!  How does it feel to be a public figure?
    	Linda

    	Some very good lessons there for all of us Mark. Another
    point about naturally controlling deer populations is that we've
    done a lot to eliminate predators. In many areas, the predators
    were cougars,wolves and bears. Many of the people who are opposed
    to hunting have never seen any of these and wouuld probably faint
    if they did. Most of them would also strongly oppose introducing
    them into their neighborhoods (read nearby woods). So,in fact, they
    oppose natural balances by not opposing the development of habitat,
    and by not wanting wolves and bears in their back yards.(not that
    they really would be, but that's often the perception)
    	Hunting fills the gap that was caused by elimination of predators.
    It's just a shame that there are so many who are potentially more
    dangerous to neighboring homes than the predators ever could be.
    	By all means,get on the cases of slobs, and try to see the anti's
    side when you discuss it with them.
    
    	George

    Excellent Mark, just fantastic.
    
    John

    
    Mark,
    
    What can one say!! Excellent, Thats one for us. Ever think of becoming
    a Hunter-Safty-Instructor ? How about a Writer for your local paper
    You could start a Hunting colum. Bet you would be good at it...
    
    Thank You for Defending Our Sport with Respect and Honor!
    
     Rick......                                              

      I got harrassed last week at the checkout counter while purchasing
    the June issue of Deer and Deer Hunting.  I was outnumbered by two
    female clerks and another female customer.  They hit me with:
    "How could you possibly hurt something as beautiful as that" (pointing
    to the buck in velvet on the cover).  I replied that I don't try
    to hurt them... just kill them.  Then the customer blasts me with
    "I walk up to animals like that all the time and I don't know why
    or how anyone could possibly hunt them".  I told her that my experience
    would lead me to believe that she was a liar.  Well things went
    down hill from there..... I paid for my purchase and left with a
    smile.  
    
    I saw something over the weekend that brought other disturbing
    thoughts.  It seems that Disney has been releasing "classic" video
    hits at a rate of one per year.  Well this years hit is Bambi. 
    And they are waiting 'til October to release it.  I can just imagine
    the kind of negative publicity this will generate.
    
    Dave

    
    RE Bambi
    
    Bambi was released into the theaters last year just before hunting 
    season, I haven't heard of anything coming from it.  In fact, my
    wife and I took one of my hunting partners two daughters to see it.
    They (age 5 and 3), knew their farther hunted deer, and was going to
    in a week or so, but did not even make any kind of connection.
    
    Although it is true Bambi's mother gets killed by a hunter, they
    show nothing more than alot of bullets, then they do not condem
    the hunters, they just say she is gone.  This may be enough, but
    it definetly could be worse.
    
    --Bob

    re 296.45
    
    I would have ashked for the store manager and gave him hell!
    I then would have demanded an apology from both clerks and the manager
    then left WITHOUT buying the magazine. There are too many other
    places to spend your money where you dont have to put up with that
    kind of bullshit. I went to buy a pack of cigerettes one day and
    the guy behind the counter started giving me a hard time just because
    i had my hunting licence on my hat. He said one of his friends had
    almost shot someone while hunting and that it was dangerous. I told
    him it sounded like his friend was an a$$hole just like him and
    left without the cigeretts. 
                                
                              Walt

      re  .47
    
    I don't think there is any chance of winning an argument with a
    devoted anti-sportsman.  Why waste your time frustrating yourself
    when these people aren't even going to listen to you.  They've got
    animated minds that automatically personnify the game that we hunt.
    Now don't get me wrong......  I will discuss conservation with someone
    if they are interested in sharing thoughts. I.E.  Last season I helped
    a friend check his deer in on a Sunday morning.  A woman and her two
    daughters dressed in their "go-to-meet'n" clothes approached my
    tailgate and the woman pets the carcass on the head and says "oh
    you poor thing".  Well I flinched and braced myself because I felt
    for certain I had "incoming" headed my way.  I was wrong.  The woman
    was new to our country and to her the whole concept of going out
    and taking game because man is the only predator left was appealing
    to her.  She asked me if it was edible.  So I stepped aside (I was
    trying to hide the body cavity) and I showed her the leaness of
    the meat etc..  She thought it was fantastic.  So on that day we
    added three votes to our side.
      The point I'm making is that you can't change the animated mind.
    If you think your dealing with a neutral party then go for it. 
    
     Oh, and by the way, my children (ages 3 and 4) saw "Bambi" last
    summer.  Its very hard to bridge the gap between animation and reality
    without compromising the childs imagination or innocence.  So until
    they're a little older I guess I'll be taking a lot of sh*t.  Stuff
    like "daddy, you better only shoot the bad deers", or "don't shoot
    Bambi".  Even my wife thinks it better not to hang the deer where
    the kids might see it........ sigh
    
    Dave

    re:45
    
    	I commend you in your ability to not lose it and walk out of
    there with a smile. Stuff like that tends to upset me. I'm not talking
    so much about the customer as I'm talking about the clerks. 
    
    	The best I probably would have been able to do is to ask them
    to point out their manager, point out that what they're doing is
    considered harrassment, and then ask them how they think they're
    manager would handle it if you brought this to his/her attention.

    NOTE: I said "the best I probably". Hind sight is 20/20 and a lot
    of times you just don't think of these things under fire.
    
    	The same could be said if you brought up a Playboy and the clerk
    hit you with "How can you read that smut ?".     

       	If you wanted to be a nice guy you could point out that clerks
    tend to be more expendable than customers. You'll let it slide this
    time but don't EVER let it happen again. This I maybe could say
    with a smile on my face.
    
    BTW - If the customer that blasted you had any meat at all, it would
    have served her right if you hit her with the fact that she is a
    hypocrate that simply has someone do her dirty work for her on a TRUELY
    helpless animal. Who knows, maybe it was a cow that she "walks up to
    all the time" and just couldn't tell the difference.
    
	Ray

      My son likes to read Bambi before he goes to bed also.  He will
    be five next November.  Last year I shot my deer the last day I
    could hunt in New York.  I drove home the next morning and arrived
    while Ma and the kids were out shopping.   After hanging the deer
    I left to do some errands.  When I got home Eric was there to great
    me with the biggest smile you ever saw.  He was sooo proud that
    "Daddy got a deer".  The point is that just cause they like to read
    the book, doesn't necessarily mean that it will turn them against
    hunting. I say let them see the movie, just explain the difference
    between reality and cartoons if it presents a problem.  Eric can't 
    wait till he is old enough to go hunting with me.  (Neither can I).                          
    
    Jeff                       

    Bambi might paint a negative picture of hunting for kids who have
    not been exposed to it, but I wouldn't worry about your kids.
    
    My daughter just turned 4.  She says she wants to go hunting with me
    when she gets "big" :-).   When I bring home gamebirds, she loves to
    help me "peel" them (her words for pluck!) and plays with the feathers.
    She also knows that is what she is eating and thinks its great.
    
    Mark,
    

    Marks story reminded me of another one.  When Eric was around three
    he had a stuffed dog named "Clifford".  When I would get home from
    bird hunting he would take out Clifford and have him "hunt" for
    dead birds in the yard.  He loved to have Clifford retrieve dead
    pheasants, "just like Skeet".                           
    
    Jeff (this is beggining to sound like the Parenting file!)

    Hey Jeff,
    
    SKEET and Clifford, pretty good friends are they??

The latest PETA journal suggests that you liberate live lobsters from grocery
stores ("without paying, of possible").  Then, you're supposed to call PETA to
learn how to mail the lobsters to them without killing them. 

I like the way they suggest you violate the law.  What ethical people ;-). 


Steve

P.S.  PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals"

 PETA believe in ethical treatment of SOME animals. Not to include hunting
dogs or humans, of course.

    
    
      I am not sure if this breaks any rules or not but what the hey, I got
    a real kick out of it.
    
      A persons personal names in another conference is.......
    
      PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals
    
    
                                                      Lee
    

    
    
    I doubt Amos would mind you mentioning his current P/N.
    
    
    Gary

    I often wondered how PETA could afford all those lobster party bashes. 
    The truth is out.