Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    How many do you want?  I should be able to get you quite a few if
    things work out.  Let me know how many to save.  We usually breast
    out the birds, so I can give you the whole carcass.  Do the scouts
    mind doing the rest?
    
    Jeff

    re .1
    
    Jeff,
    
    I see you breast out your birds...what do you do with the legs and
    thighs?  If you haven't tried them, I'm sure you must have, I think
    they're the tastiest portion of the whole goose.  I haven't tried
    cutting the leg/thigh portion from the carcass, but I bet it wouldn't
    be that difficult.  Just a thought.
    
    Kevin

    Kevin,
      To be honest, the reason I breast them is cause it's quick and
    easy.  The amount of meat you gain by cleaning them in a "conventional"
    manner isn't worth the added time and effort to me.  While were
    on the subject, what do you guys use for steel on geese?  Im planning
    on using BB and 1's.  What do ya think?  Can't wait for Monday
    morning!!
    
    Jeff                                                          
    

Back to .0, it's a bit late now but if you can find a lake where the geese 
are staying in the summer, that would help a lot towards youir goal next 
June.  They shed their feather in the early summer.  Here in Merrimack, NH, 
the geese shed their featethers by the ton.  Makes for a nice walk around 
the fire pond picking them up.  Plenty of big ones too.

Rich

    Jeff, you must have shot a few geese on the coast last year with
    steel.  How did the BB's and 1's work?  Any preference? 
    
    I'm planning to start with 3" 1's; but haven't tested them yet.
    
    Mark,
    

    The birds that I have shot with steel were all shot with BB's.
    We normally hunt over decoys, and at the distances that we take
    the birds, I didn't really notice a big differance in killing power.
    I am interested in other peoples opinions as we will be using steel
    statewide this year.
    
    Jeff

    Not being critical here but would like to point out that there
    is no such animal as canadian goose, they are Canada geese or 
    Canada goose in the singular. This by the way is one of the most
    common mistakes made by the professional "sports" writers and
    anti groups.
    
    regards,
    
    dick
    

    I'm happy to report that the steel #1's worked this morning.  The
    goose I took was probably 35-40 yards out and it dropped pretty
    good.  There was one problem.  Apparently those first shots warped
    my gun barrel...  The next geese I shot at were much closer, but kept
    flying after I shot!   :-)
                    
    That was my first goose after many unsuccessful attempts!  Thanks,
    Jeff, for your helpful advice.  That was more excitement hunting
    than I think I have ever had before.  It was GREAT!
    
    Mark,
    

    O.K. you guys how did you do opening day?  We had good news and
    bad news.  First the good news.  We got to our "spot" late (6:20)
    and nobody else was there.  In the dark we could hear the ducks
    milling around and generally having a good time.  Finally 7:00 rolled
    around and the fun began.  The first shot was on a single that was
    coming in, and my partner rolled it.  At the shot all hell broke
    loose, there were ducks EVERYWHERE.  We managed to drop a pair quickly.
    We had left the dog in the truck, so I went back and got him and
    gave him the three birds as blinds.  We had left him there because
    the area we were hunting is real hard to sneak into and we figured
    the least noise the better.  Any way after he retrieved the three
    birds, we sat for about 5 minutes before dropping a fourth.  It
    was a long retrieve as the duck wasn't hit real well and sailed.
    Skeet marked it well and made the retrieve.  Now the bad news. When
    he returned with the bird he was bleeding.  He cut his pad.  5
    stitches.  We were done for the day.  As I was tapeing up his paw
    6 geese came in.  Couldn't shoot cause we didn't have any way to
    retrieve them.  Should be ready for the second season.
      What did you guys think of steel shot?  My feeling is you either
    hit them or you don't.  I couldn't see a big difference.
                                   
    Jeff (who will be stuck hunting fields for awhile)             

	Sorry to hear about your dog Jeff.  Any idea what he/she
    	was cut on?
    
    	Took yesterday off. Had a good mix throughout the day.

	We, my partner and I, finished the morning about 8:30
	with four, 2 mallards, 2 woodies.  After a couple more
	pecan rolls, a cup of coffee, and watching a few singles 
	go into the marsh, we headed out to jump'em.  Put a pair
	up and dropped one, could find him though. Looked like a
	good hit, but when we finally got over to where he went
	down, no duck.  We never saw him move after he went down.
	I HATE loosing ducks...don't have a dog.

	At about 10:00 we headed out to do some fishing.  Picked up
	about a half dozen bass, a few pickerel, and a couple crappie.
	A nice mix for the day.  After lunch we dressed the blind up 
	a bit more.

	Steel shot.  We used 2's.  Three of the four that dropped in
	front of us folded up nicely.  The fourth tried diving but 
	after it's second try never moved again.  Longest shot was 
	going away at probable 40-45 yds, she folded up.  My opinion
	of the 2's on ducks is that they knocked'em down pretty hard.
	Next time out I think I'll try something smaller, to see if
	I notice a difference.  (Any comments on a smaller size shot
	for ducks or, are 2's fine).
	
	Nothing in the late afternoon/evening, too tired.  Home at 5:15pm 
	
		Bryan
    

     I used steel 4's yesterday. No problem.  My theory is that the
    ammo manufactures have improved the ballistics fo there loads.
    When steel first came out the patterns were real poor.  Folks 
    got turned off by it cause they had big holes in there patterns.
    Supposedly this problem has been fixed with the help of improved
    wads and other "fixes".  Any ideas out there?
     We finished with a drake mallard, a hen, a black, and a drake woody.
    A truely mixed bag.  No idea what the dog got cut on, could have
    been anything, rock, glass, whatever.  He was walking around like
    he had been on quite the bender last night.  Wobbling all over the
    place.  He's got his sea legs back today.
    
    Jeff

    
    I'm using primarily steel #3's, 3" magnums.  Things started going
    fairly well with the stuff, seemed to be doing better than I would
    with lead, my percetanges were way up.  I think I'm in a slump lately
    though.  The last 3 times out I've shot 1 1/2 boxes to drop 2 ducks
    cleanly, have sent a few with a few less feathers on their way (don't
    know how those ducks will fair in the long run...probably swamp
    fertilizer...it's pretty sad, I'm certainly not happy about it).
    Talking with other hunters one group dropped 21 birds only to loose
    9 of them, that's not good.
    
    I disagree with Jeff on this, I think there are an awful lot of
    near fatal hits with steel that we don't know about.  Of course
    this is strictly from my observations.  I have noticed that every
    bird that I've killed cleanly has either been hit in the head/neck
    or blasted in the body (I don't mean 3 or 4 pellets-more like gapping
    holes through the chest).  With lead I cleaned several birds that
    only had very few (3 or 4) pellets in the chest  that dropped out
    of the sky like they were hit with a Bazooka.  With steel I'm seeing
    birds that drop are birds that are hit dead on, with a lot of the
    meat being wasted to blood clots or gapping holes.  We have had
    some cripples due to steel, but luckily the dog has stayed on every
    one and gotten them all.  But the point I'd like to make is that
    these cripples were shot up pretty bad, a hen mallard had at least
    8-10 pellet holes in her body, that bird put my dog on a 10 minute
    retrieve only to die 15 minutes after being in the boat.  What dropped
    this bird and other cripples is broken wings, I estimate we've plugged
    as many or more than we've dropped only to have them die in the
    swamp. To me it's disgusting and next year I'm going to have to
    justify getting out in the boat in the U.S., I believe I can still
    hunt with lead in Canada if that's the case my days of hunting in
    the U.S. are numbered.
    
    I know what they say about practicing, and I've done that, I increased
    my clay pigeon shooting from 50 birds to 350 this year, it hasn't
    made a difference.  Perhaps this is not enough?  I claim it's a
    heck of a lot more than the average hunter whose out there shooting
    up the swamp with steel shot.
    
    Kevin who_hates_to_be_the_direct_cause_of_wasted_game
  

    Kevin,
      We were also using 3"magnums.  As I said earlier, I haven't noticed
    a big difference in lead vs. steel.  Three of the four birds shot
    yesterday were dead before they hit the water.  The fourth was dead
    by the time the dog got to it.
      I too have a problem with guys loosing "9 out of 21" birds.
    Something is definitely wrong.  At what range were these guys shooting?
    Were they using a dog?  What chokes were they using?  What size
    shot?  They need to change something, dependent on the answers to
    the above questions.
      You mentioned that you estimate that you have "plugged as many
    or more than we've dropped only to have them die in the swamp".
    Can I suggest that you ask your selves the questions I asked above?  The
    birds we were shooting at have been at relatively close distances.
    The vast majority dropped cleanly.
                                                                      
    A good friend of mine runs a comercial goose guiding outfit.  He
    has been using steel off and on for a year.  This guy shoots somewhere
    around 100 geese a year.  His thoughts on the subject are that if
    you shoot at reasonable ranges, with the right load, and can hit
    what your aiming at, then you'll kill geese.
                                                
    Jeff

    Sorry for not making the distinction.  Does that also mean that
    Labatt's is not a canadian beer but a Canada beer? :^)
    
    Ray
    

    We did well. I shot steel #2 in a 2 3/4 mag. They did just fine.
    Seemed like I had to shorten my lead (tighter patterns?). I would
    guess the average shot at 35 yards.
    
    I took a pair of drake woodies and a drake greenwing teal. Teal
    were everywhere. I'd never seen much of them before. I think the
    fog helped us out holding the birds down longer.
    
    We were retrieving my teal when 12 geese set on my goose decoys.
    No shots.
    
    Figures...

    Guy

    
    	I haven't used steel for a few years now. After listening
    	to Jeff and Kevin I really agree with both of them. Yes
    	they have made improvements with the steel shot ballistics(sp?),
    	as when I used it, it was not yet known that improved cylinder
    	was a good selection for steel shot, and most duck hunters used
    	full chokes back then. Still most kills were somewhere around
    	30yrds. Ducks shot beyond this distance back then were usually
    	wounded or maimed. With lead shot, 40 to 50 yard shots were
    	not uncommon and provided clean kills. Steel shot lacks the density
	of lead and can't compare with the kind of knock down power that
    	the lead had to offer. Just my opinion !
    
    	pat.
    

    We had a great opener ourselves arrived at our blindes about 15
    minutes later than planned but were set up and ready to go by
    6:30. We managaned to fill both our bags by 9:30. 3 drake mallards,
    2 drake woodies, and one hen green wing teal. 
    
    For shot we were using #4 2-3/4" shells, open choked shotguns over
    decoys. All but 2 birds were clean kills and they were both dead
    by the time we had them in the boat. average distance was 25 to
    30 yards. This was our second year using steel as the coastal zone
     was steel only last year. The key with steel is to wait until 
    the birds are at least over your marker decoy, the days of 50 or 
    60 yard shots are gone. It is now time to learn to adjust and use 
    what we have.
    
    Good luck the rest of the season!
    Mike 
                                

	I, by no means consider myself an expert or for that matter
	overly knowledgeable regarding the steel vs lead controversy.

	Yesterday was the first time I've shot with steel, and therefore 
	is the only time I can compare any lead vs steel issues, for myself 
	anyway.  Maybe it was because we used 2's, but man did 3 of 
	those 4 birds fold.  Last year we probably had only four total 
	that folded as the three did yesterday.  Yeah there were a few 
	gaping holes in a couple of the breasts.  But, as far as I'm 
	concerned, you know there going to be there anyway.  And, I'm going 
	to get just as many bites out of a breast with 4 holes from #2 shot 
	as I would from a breast with 6 or more holes from #4 shot.  
	
	I'm going to wait the year out, try 4's next time out, and see
	what happens.  At the end of the year though, if yesterday was
	any indication, I don't think I'll notice to much of a difference 
	between steel and lead, if any at all.  All I've got to do is shoot 
	like I did yesterday.  

	As far as loosing birds, I think we all try for clean kills.  Of the 
	ducks my partner and I shoot, we loose at most 3-4 birds a season. 3 of 
	those four birds are lost in the marsh, the other has taken a dive.
	My partner and I are very familiar with where we hunt, and we know how 
	and where the birds will fly depending on where they come in from. 
	We talk to each other.  If either of us feel that a hit bird is 
	going to drop any place where we may not be able to retrieve it, 
	(i.e. not in the cove) we tell each other to "let em go."  If
        we judge the shot to be to far, we'll let em go.  We would
	probably double our bag a year if we took more shots, but we
	would probable tripple our count on lost birds.   I'd say the vast 
    	majority of our shots are taken inside of 40 yds.  It's great 
	fun to blast away, and watch feathers fly but for me, it's more 
	pleasurable to try and coax em in over the decoys, and put em on the 
	dinner table.  

		Bryan

    Our, Dave() and I, opening day was the pits. Get out to our water
    hole and it's bone dry. Ducks flying way off in the distance is
    the closest we got. Shot parrie dogs instead. :-)
    
    Looking for a new place to play. :-(
    
    In Colorado, this year Teal are not legal to shoot. :-(

    Mark

         Without pointing the finger at .12, we hunters have been
         inclined to accuse steel shot when poor shooting skills, or,
         more often, the inability to judge effective range are to
         blame. We all missed birds with lead. We all crippled birds
         with lead. And when we killed with lead we didn't play
         medical examiner with the carcass. The point is, when we shot
         lead we didn't examine the numbers and killing power as
         closely as we are with steel. Therefore, I don't believe any
         of us can make accurate comparisons. In fact, you can only
         test loads under controlled conditions.

         Re 12: Kevin, since this is the second time you've mentioned
         letting birds slowly die in your boat (notes 246.12 and 21.9),
         I have to ask, why don't you dispatch your cripples?
                    
         Doug

    Re: .20
    
    	>>> We all missed birds with lead.
    
    	    Absolutely!
    
        >>> We all crippled birds with lead.
    
    	    Again, I agree.  But it doesn't take a PhD to figure out
    	    whether or not you are getting more or less cripples in
    	    any given year.  My experiences have been similar to
    	    Kevin's.  Hunting with lead, it was very obvious that alot
    	    of the clean kills were caused by the force of the impact.
    	    The pellets would stop in the birds and expend all of their
    	    energy at that point, killing the duck.  With steel, I have
    	    seen that many (majority) of the pellets are entering AND
    	    EXITING the bird, not expending their energy and not killing
    	    the bird by impact.  This is (I feel) why the birds are
    	    being crippled.
    
    	>>> When we shot lead we didn't examine the numbers and killing
    	    power as closely as we are with steel.
    
    	    Speak for yourself, Doug ;-)  I've always made it a habit
    	    to examine my birds as I cleaned them.  This way I know
    	    how well I was shooting, was I hitting vital organs, how
    	    new loads were patterning on the birds, etc.  This inform-
    	    ation is vital to the success of my hunts.
    
    	What's wrong with this picture(?):  I shoot a duck.  It goes
    	down hard, but the duck is still alive.  It takes 15 minutes
    	for the dog to get to it because the duck makes a series of
    	dives, etc.  Upon arriving back to the blind, the duck must
    	be dispatched.  Eventhough it is messed up pretty bad from the
    	shot, it hadn't died.  When cleaning the bird, I find that
    	one whole side of the breast is mutilated and is wasted.  Why
        didn't this duck die on impact?  I've been known to be a little
    	forgetful at times, but I would have remembered if something
    	like this had happened while I was shooting lead.  It hasn't.
    	Steel, well, that's another story.
                                          
    
    Dave
    
    	p.s. I'm not a big fan of lead poisoning either.  There's got
    	     to be an answer somewhere.  

    
    
    	Just an interesting "side" note on Steel shot. I was reading
    in "Wing & Shot" magazine that it might be advantageous to use
    copper plated steel, as "regular" steel if it gets wet or condenses
    the shot can rust and "Clump" together providing bad patterning.
    
    			Just a little FYI for everyone...
    
    
    					~Mike~
    
    
    	BTW No geese by me taken on opening day but JUST SEEING the AMOUNTS
    		we saw was worth it!!
    
    
    

    Hey Mike,
    
    There's alot more where those came from.  A lady on the local
    news reported seeing approximately 7000 geese (counted 146
    flocks) heading south as she was sailing on Lake Champlain
    the other day.  Seems like the population has been growing
    by leaps and bounds the last few years.  I wouldn't be surprised
    to see goose hunting as THE migratory bird sport of the future.
    
    Dave
    
    p.s. thanks for the tip on copper clad steel.  Makes sense.
    	 Anyone seen this stuff on the shelf?  Whats the cost?

    i have been looking at the information on steel shots. i have a
    question on the effects it has on the older 12 gauge shotguns. i
    own two shotguns one is a mossemberg which is 10 years old and it
    has a c-select choke on it. my question is can i use steel shots
    with the barrel i have or do i have to make some modifications to
    the barrel? the other shotgun i have is a 30 year old ithaca (sp)
    with a full choke barrel. same question as above.
    
     opening day for me was terrible at 6:30 am i had about 30 to 50
    ducks fly by within shooting range and at 6:45 we had about 5 ducks
    in the decoys and they left right before legal shooting. i made up
    some ground on the remainder of the week i ended up with six ducks
    by saturday.
     any help you guys can give me on the shotguns i have would be
    grateful. i think N.H. will be going to all steel by 1989 or 1990
    
                                    thanks 

    re: .24
    
    It is NOT recommended to shoot steel shot through any gun that
    has a full choke, last I heard.  The shot has to compress quite
    a bit to get through a full choke.  Steel, being a harder metal
    than lead, does not compress very much.  The studies I've seen
    said that you can end up with a visible bulge in your barrel
    behind the choke constriction.  This supposedly does not affect
    the performance of the gun (?) but it definately is not preferred.
    As far as the Mossberg, I understand the mechanics of this choke
    system and, although I haven't seen any reports on them, I would
    think that you could do damage the "fingers" inside the choke.
    Mossberg is recommending you buy a Accu-steel choke system, which
    in your case would mean a new barrel.  I've been using my older
    Accu-choke with absolutely no problems.  I'm not willing to buy
    the Accu-steel choke tubes at $16.50 a pop, yet.
                                                        
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Dave

    
    re .20 and others
    
    How do you suggest I dispatch my cripples?  I've been duck hunting
    for 12 years, quite avidly I may add, and haven't found a sure fire
    way yet.  Sometimes I try and break the neck...have you ever seen
    a cripple survive a broken neck?  I've seen several of them.  Sometimes
    I smash their skulls...a little crude maybe...have you ever seen
    a duck survive a smashed skull with brain material hanging out?
    I have...and I don't mean nerves and twitching I mean breathing.
    Sometimes I drown them...especially if it's a bird of high quality
    that I may have mounted.  The point I was trying to make is the
    birds go down...no question about it, and lots of them go down dead,
    but those birds that get marginally hit I've seen live a long time.
    Very hard to dispatch these birds.  I felt quite bad last year when
    I brought my wife hunting with me (first time she had hunted with
    me when I used steel shot) and she had to witness me attempt several
    times to dispatch a cripple...it's not a pretty sight.  
    
    As far as shooting range goes, most birds are within 30 yds.  I
    guess I lack confidence with steel and that probably has an effect
    as well.  The stuff is really inconsistent...or I am inconsistent,
    probably me...or elements that affect shooting change (wind etc.).
    Last night for example I shot at 3 birds, 2 dropped dead, the 3rd
    I didn't touch.  One greenhead was at no more than 20 yards, the
    other must have been 40 yards.  The one at 20 put the dog on a good
    retrieve, the one at 40 was DOA.  The bird that was farther away
    had at least 15 pellet holes in the upper breast and neck and the
    closer duck had about 6 holes in it all along one side of the breast.
    All of  these pellets exited the bird on the other side, when I
    cleaned the other bird several pellets fell out of the chest cavity.
    I must have counted 6 just beneath the breast bone.  So maybe I'm
    shooting at them too close?  15 or more pellets in a mallard at
    40 yards is a hell of a lot of shot, especially #3's.  That is one
    tight pattern for a 6" area.  Any comments?  
    
    I have always examined my kills quite close, have always been
    interested in anatomy etc. so it's not unusual for me to go into
    detail, I hope it wasn't a bit too graphic.  
    
    I'd also like to say Jeff has a good point about hitting or missing,
    theoretically it's true your chances of a clean kill or clean miss
    is higher with steel, looking at it purely from a shot string
    standpoint.  The string is much smaller with steel.  I'm sure what's
    happening with me is that I'm most likely shooting over my birds
    at the closer ranges and hitting them with the fringe of a very
    tight pattern.  The stuff has lots of surprises it is a lot different
    than lead don't be lead (no pun intended) to believe the 2 are equal.
    I was quite surprised to see a flairing greenhead at 40 yards crumple
    with one shot last night...hopefully there will be a few more examples
    of that in the next few days.
    
    Good Hunting.
    
    Kevin
                                                      
    Kevin
    
    

    
    re .26, The only sure fire way I know of dispatching cripples, quickly,
    is to cut off the head, crude but it works every time.
    
    --Bob

    Kevin,
      Here is how I kill crippled ducks.  I grab them from the back
    so that my thumb is in what would be one arm pit (wing pit?) and
    my fingers in the other.  Then squeeze.  It takes about 30 seconds
    for the duck to die.  I'm not sure how it kills them but it works
    real well.  I learned this at field trials with ducks and pheasants.
    The guy that showed me said that it collapses there lungs. I haven't
    tried it on geese as you would have to have hands the size of Andre
    the Giant.  Geese get there neck broken or there head smacked agains
    a rock.  I agree that some ducks seem to live forever, but most
    of the time I think it is just nerves.  I did notice that 99% of
    the shot is travelling through the birds rather the nending up inside
    them.
    
    Jeff

         I use a method similar to Jeff's. I place my thumb just below
         and between the breasts. Then I press in and upward toward
         the head to collapse the lungs. Prior to learning this
         method, I decapitated birds that didn't readily succumb to
         other methods.
             
         I'm still not sastified that I'm using the best method and
         I've always been on the lookout for this topic in any
         literature on waterfowling. Surprisingly, it's never
         discussed.

         Doug

    What are you guys doing about steel shot used in guns with choke
    tubes???  All the literature I've read said steel shot not recommended.
     
    does this mean that the field grade browning O/U i'm gonna buy can't
    be used in the field???
    
    Fra
    
    catch 22 or what!!!
    

    Fra,
    
    I've been using steel shot through choke tubes this season, with
    no problems.  I've mostly used Improved cylinder tube.  I've inserted
    them hand tight and been able to remove them by hand after each
    hunt.  I did throw my full choke tube in my gun (to do a couple
    of patterns) and fired 2 shots.  Almost didn't get it out after.
    Mossberg's Accu-steel tubes look like they make sense (threaded
    barrel extensions) but I haven't seen the need.
    
    Dave

    
    re .30
    
    It really doesn't matter what type of gun you're going to be using,
    if you put in a full choke tube you can bet you'll see some problems
    over time.  With steel full choke doesn't make sense anyhow, the
    stuff patterns incredibly tight.  All major gun manufacturers are
    making their own recommendations, if I remeber right Browning suggests
    using invectors of no tighter than modified, with shot size no larger
    than T.  When you go to buy it just check their literature, I'm
    sure they give their recommendations/guarantees.
                                            
    I've been using my Winchester pump with the modified winchoke tube
    for 2 years now, absolutely no problems.  I have seen sparks coming
    out of the end of the barrel on occasion though, maybe once or twice.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    
    

    re: -1
    
    Interesting, I didn't know Winchester had a flamethrower, in a pump
    model.
    
    (just kidding)
    
    Guy

    All the write ups that I have seen on the subject of using steel
    shot in current and older models is to use no more than a modified
    choke. Anything more than this will cause a "Cosmetic" bulge in
    the barrel right in front of the choke area. Something I noticed
    throughout this entire note was that no has mentioned any difference
    between 2 3/4 vs 3" mag. Everything i've seen says when comparing
    these 2 in lead shot there is a difference, but as far as steel
    goes there isn't a significant difference anymore. That is why if
    you look at most manufactures catalogs in the shotgun sections you
    will see in the fine print mention of 3 1/2" magnum available upon
    marketing of the ammo. I also believe that mossberg is about the
    only one with this gun avaible right now. I am considering also
    in buying an O/U like Paul L. and I don't know if you notced Paul
    the mention of the 3 1/2 in the Browning catalog. Has anyone else
    seen anything about this "NEW" shell?
    
    
                                                    Guy
    
    P.S. Also being a dealer in my travels to the
    distributors I picked up a brouchre from a company
    called Reloading Specialties, it is called "Making
    Sense of Steel Shot" if anyone would like a copy
    send me mail and i'll get it out to you.

    there is a note somewhere on the very topic.
    
    It is being introduced by federal and was anounced in the
    spring at the 1988 shot show at ( i beleive ) Alanta Georga.
    
    At any rate Mossburg had a head start and was already designing
    and building a new pump shotgun to take the new Federal
    shell.
    
    Since that time there has been some writing about it
    in the product reviews of various magizines.
    
    I have seen any and I am not sure if it is on the market
    yet?
    
    Many other gun manufactures are going to alter the exsisting guns
    to accomidate this shell as soon as it is reallity.
    
    At any rate guy there is a note either here or in the firearms notes
    file. try dir/author=gath
    
    Bear

    re.35  Thanks Bear.
    
    I did what you said #111 in this file talks about it, and #1534
    in the firearms also has info. There is either very little info
    released about this or most of us have missed this upcoming issue.
    
                                                    Guy

    
    Guy,
    
    The only difference that I can see, from reading about it-not from
    experience, is about 100 fps (going by memory but it's something
    like that).  The 3" mags are slower, bringing their ballistics closer
    to my lead 2 3/4" magnum reloads.  That's the only reason I went
    with them.  Of course the obvious is that there is 1/8 oz. of shot
    more in the 3".  Maybe the fps thing really doesn't matter either,
    but psychologically it helps.
    
    Doug and Jeff,
    
    thanks for the technique on dispatching cripples, I will give it
    a try.  Actually I have used that before, with limited success,
    but it's been awhile...
    
    Kevin

	Don't know about anyone else, but I'm having fun.  We didn't
	go out at all this week for a bunch of reasons, but decided 
	last night that we would this morning.  Sounds like a KOLD
	rain tomorrow.  I hate KOLD ^&(^'n rains.

	Went out this morning.  Wanted to see the difference
	between sunrise on Monday (with the fog and all), and this
	morning with the shooting stars (saw three).

	The ducks, Teal and Woodies started coming in about 6:35.
	At 6:40 we had 5 teals in front of us 30-35yds, and three in
	the decoys to our left, with a pair of mallards up against the
	grass infront to our right about 40 yds out.  We heard more 
	skiing in, but never saw where they landed. About 6:45 a 
	pair of woodies came in and set between the 5 teal and 2 mallards.
	One had tea with the teal, and the other swam over to join the
	mallards. Thought it was strange that they split like this (???).  
	The three teal that were in our decoys were now out front with 
	the rest.  I just knew that in a second they all would take off.  
	My partner and I were &*^%'n bricks.  The ducks in the marsh
	started quacking away.  Nothing else came in, Nothing went out
	of the marsh.

	It was great.  All we could see of the mallards were their 
	white breast and orange legs.  The teal began to chase each other 
	out in front of use. The woodie (drake) by the mallards 
	moved to a grass patch closer to us.  It's hard sittin and 
	waiting and watching.  We loaded out guns. Christ is a pump
	loud when your trying to be quiet. We decided that none of the
	ducks looked nervous, so we waited.   I looked at my watch, 7:04.
	Unless something else came in in the next couple minutes that
    	looked good, we decided that at 7:06 we'd jump'em.  We also
        decided on the mallards and the drake woodie; a guy in the office 
    	where my partner works puts out $10 for a drake woodie.
    
	At 7:06. we stood up.  NOthing!  (Guess we did a better job 
	with the blind than we thought Steve whispers to me).  YO!
	I yell.  We figured the ducks would take off out over the cove
	as they were pretty much back up against the high grass and 
	brush that separates the cove from the marsh.  I was on the 
	woodie, (Steve wanted the ten bucks, but he wanted me to take it).  
	Steve had the mallards.  Wrong!  the woodie took off toward us 
	and headed toward the opening of the marsh banking to our 
	right.  The mallards went out over the cove.  Steve and I were 
	crossing each other. Just as I was ready to pull up, or (duck)
	Steve stepped back.  The woodie went down with the second shot.  I 
	swung around for the mallard, Steve was on him (we kinda switched 
	places).  He shot, I shot, he shot the drake mallard scored a 9.3 as 
	he hit the water. In all, I'd say at least 12, maybe 15 ducks took 
	off out of cove.

	Nothing else came in.  As Steve gets back into the blind, after
        picking up the ducks a single comes in, my gun jams.  7:13 (I
	guess) 	Steve says listen, hear that.  NO!  Should I put the 2's 
        in?  Go ahead, I don't care, I don't hear anything anyway.  He 
    	unloads and starts putt'n 2's in.  Damn, here they come.  You
	ready, 	cuz I can't fix this in time. No can't get the last one 
    	in.  They're setting!! Steve, Steve,  Steve!  Just as these 8 
    	geese start to set Steve gets up.  I looked at my watch, 7:15.

	Well, we set out to pick up the decoys at 7:20, with a drake 
	woodie, a drake mallard, and a story to ride each other about
	the rest of season, and probably into next year.

	Home at 7:50.
	
	Bryan (whose going to play tomorrow by ear)	

    

    WATCHED A GOOD SHOW LAST NIGHT ON ESPN, 7:00'ISH???
    
    On waterfowling, had some good footage, live shooting, bird
    identification, and the dog was the nads!!! anyone catch it.
    
    Fra
    

    Fra,
    
    The show you saw was called "Sportsman Series".  It is a half hour
    show but you can buy or rent the tape.  Most of the tapes run about
    an hour.  I've got the one one duck & goose hunting and it's real
    good.  They showed half of it last night.  This show also airs on
    saturday morning (8:30 ?).  There are also tapes on deer hunting,
    quail hunting, dove hunting, predator hunting, etc.
    
    The last weekend before the end of the first split :*(
    
    Come on snow!
    
    Dave

    
    RE:: #38
    
    PLEASE ! Don't write story's like that!! So early in the day.
    
    I can't take it! Digital Who,What, Where??
    
    I gota leave early now and go duck hunting.
    
    Its your fault!!
    
    Rick..  Digital, Hunting, Digital,Hunting????????????

                    (Quick method of killing)
    
    One sure method of finishing off crippled ducks or geese that wasn"t
    mentioned in earlier discussion. Grab the bird around the middle of
    the neck and swing bird in a fast circular motion keeping your hand
    relatively in one place. This snaps the bird's neck and kills almost
    instantly. I have yet to see any bird survive past 5 seconds using
    this method. This works on any gamebird for that matter.
    
    Keith

    I've seen it all now....
    
    Sunday, while hunting Great Bay in New Hampshire, my partner and
    I were sitting in a blind near a railroad trestle that crossed a
    section of the bay.  From our position, we could see the entire
    flyway from the bay, as well as the tidal flats behind us.
    
    We had laid out about 15 decoys the previous night to hopefully
    draw some puddle ducks that we could stalk on our back from the
    blind later Sunday morning.  
    
    From our vantage point in the blind, we could make out a man, followed
    by two young boys (presumably his sons), sitting in the high grass
    overlooking the decoys.  My buddy and I then witnessed one of the finest
    decoy stalks we've ever seen.
    
    This clown (I hesitate to call him a hunter), motioned for his sons
    to stay put, and he proceeded to crawl on his belly to the edge
    of a grassy knoll that bordered the puddle that held the decoys.
    I estimated him to be 20 feet from the nearest decoy.
    
    At this time, my partner stood up and hollered to the guy about
    the decoys when the clown stands up and unloads into one of the
    magnums in the puddle.  His two sons run up to him, anticipating
    a fine gander who had been so ethically shot while sitting in a
    puddle.  The expression on their face when they realized that Daddy-poo
    had just blasted the bejeezus out of a K-Mart special was worth
    the price of the decoy.
    
    When we approached the guy, he hemmed and hawed about "a couple
    of woodies" that were swimming in the puddle.  Not wanting to make
    a big scene in front of the kids, we decided not to hassle the guy
    too much, as I'm sure he was simply dying inside.
    
    I'm still bustin' a gut over this one.
    
    Be careful, they're out there!
    
    Mark.

RE:.42

Twirling birds by the head to break their neck.  I saw a 220lb. man twirl a
chicken by the neck this way once during a survival exercise we were giving
for some college ROTC students.  He twirled and twirled and twirled.  When
he let go the chicken got up and ran.  That chicken was one pissed off
chicken I'll tell you.  He recaught it and even tried to rip it's head off
by stretching it's neck.  Chicken's eyes rolled back and it's tongue gapped
out and everything.  When he let go the chicken got up and ran.  That was
one tough chicken.  We finally dispatched it with an M16 round to the head.
Just in time too, I saw a gleam in that chicken's eyes that said that if
it weren't taken care of soon we were all gonna be in a heap of trouble.  
That was one pissed off chicken...

    And then there were the "duck hunters" I saw Friday afternoon. As
    I approached my normal spot via canoe, there they sat on the far
    bank, with their international orange hats on! They had no boat.
    I laughed to myself and figured they were far enough away to be
    no real threat. At my approach a teal left the cove, circled out
    over the main body of the river and headed down stream. Two of them
    emptied their guns at a duck that had to be (conservatively) 80
    yards away. I counted more than 3 shots each, so I doubt they had
    plugs in their guns. I don't know what they would have done if they
    had hit the dammed duck, swim for it I suppose. Yeah, right.

    Sigh...
    
    Guy

    
    This one will make you all SICK!!
    
    I'm sitting in the boat hidden in the tall grass watching the sky
    and me dekes when suddenly from around the bend comes this boat
    with the outboard at high thottle. Theres this guy standing in the
    bow with his shot-gun on his shoulder pointing at my decoys while
    I,m about 20yds directly behind them. I'm like holy-Sh** hit the
    deck and come about,right Well just about. I was so pissed i stood
    up and yelled at this guy who just about fell from his boat, as
    he passed me by I reconized him,"Oh my GOD he's the local N.R.A.
    Instructor. What an A**H***. Needles to say I paid this clown a
    vist. Just so happened he had a Hunter Safty Class that night,
    I waited til break ask to speak to him out-side and KICKED HIS A**
    IN. He no longer is an instructor,But unfortunetly He still hunts.
    My knuckles were sore and I acted  like a kid, But IT felt GOOD!           
    
    Rick.....

    I spoke with someone at the Westboro office about the extended
    goose season that was conducted last winter here in MA.
    
    A few interesting things:
    
        - over 3500 permits were given out
        - over 3000 geese were taken
        - 65% of the diaries were returned 
	
	I was surprised at the number that was returned. I expected a better 
	return 	since you needed to return the diaries in order to get a 
	permit the following year to hunt the extened season.
        
        The hot spots included:
        
            - Martha's Vineyard
            - Nantuckect Island
            - The Cape
            - Newburyport, Parker River, Plum Island
            
    Michael
            

    Guy, i went back last night and skimmed through the browning catalogue,
    and came across the 3 1/2" magnums you mentioned... what it looks
    like is that Browning will put out a 3 1/2" production model as
    soon as a manufacturer put out the shells.... sooooo if you put
    on your Federal hat, would you start up production on 3 1/2 mag
    loadings, when theres no one out there making the guns to chamber
    them in...
    
    or is there any other gun manufacturers currently chambering them,
    I havn't heard... could be way off base here.
    
    Fra
             
    

    
    
    	I'm digressing a bit here, but back around .30 or so there
    was discussion about dispatching cripples. Has anyone tried the
    "Necker" which is advertised in some of the DU magazines?? I
    believe it's out of Texas somwhere and is similar to a pair of
    large pliers. Any info would be appreciated...
    
    
    				Thanks,
    
    
    					~Mike~

    SInce much of this note discussed the steel shot controversy, I
    thought I would add my $.02 worth.  I didn't say much originally,
    but I've been using steel more in the Mass Coastal zone the past
    3 weeks.  I took 7 ducks, most of the them blacks and lost one.
    
    I shot 3 inch #2s and the ducks all dropped straight down. None
    were badly shot up and none were going anywhere.
    
    I'm convinced the biggest problem is people shooting out of range.
    On opening day we went to the Parker River Wildlife Area.  You
    are supposed to fill out a form on your way out saying what to got
    and what you crippled and lost.  It was slightly more ducks lost
    than recovered!  That is terrible!  I watch other hunters lose some
    cripples, and they were taking shots way out of range.  I hate to
    admit it, but looking back, I should have avoided it and not taken
    what I now realize was too long a shot.
    
    Mark,
    

      Anyone else been goose hunting?  Yesterday we had what I have
    to considure the best goose hunting day of my life.  We had a total
    of 5 hunters in the field.  Three of these guys had never shot a
    goose before, but had hunted other game.  We were hunting a field
    that I finally got permission to hunt after trying for four years!
    Persistance pays off, as does being polite.  We put out a spread
    of 36 shells and full bodies.  We were all set at dawn when the
    first flight came over.  They looked us over but refused to come
    in.  My first thought was that some of the "rookies" were looking
    up at the birds instead of keeping there faces hidden.  The second
    and third flights refused to decoy also.  At this point I was getting
    frustrated and went out into the spread to see if I could figure
    what was wrong.  Everyone seemed well camo'd, so we figured mayby
    the spread was wrong.  I decided to open it up some and flare the
    end away from us.  By doing this we risked having the birds decoy
    to far out, but we needed to change something.  The next flight
    was a group of just three birds.  They came right down the pike
    and all hit the deck!  Three shots and three birds.  Ye Ha! it worked!
    From then on it was unbelievable.  We ended up with fifteen birds
    by 9:15.  We dropped six out of one flight.  At one point I was
    fixing a deke that had been bombed by a falling goose when two
    birds decided to come in.  They aproached the first time with feet
    down and I dropped one, grabbed him and layed down.  Started calling
    and the lone bird turned came around to land and was dropped by another
    guy in our party!  Truely unbelievable!  We had birds trying to
    land while we were picking up the dekes.  By the time we had
    everything packed up and ready to go, there were over 400 birds in the 
    field feeding. We tried to tell the new guys that this was unusual
    but I have a feeling that there now ruined for life.  Needless to
    say I'm going back later in the week.
    
    Jeff
    

    My neighbor showed me an article (New England Game & Fish?) on hunting
    the Parker River Refuge in Newbury/Rowley for waterfowl.  Has anyone 
    out there had success in hunting this refuge?  From what I remember
    from the article there were three areas mentioned.  One area had access
    only by boat.  One area had access from land or boat.  One area
    (Rowley) had only walk-in access.  
    
    Regards,
    
    

    <Sounds of thick layers of dust being blown away>
    
    Hey, there! Any New Englanders out taking Canada Geese this fall? My
    neighbor and I went out the day after opening day, 04SEP, and had the 
    luck to have a small flight move directly over us. My neighbor and I 
    each took one and then scurried off to our respective jobs. Its a nice 
    way to start the day.
    
    I use a Mossberg 500 slide action with 3" #2 Steel.
    
    We just breasted out the birds; and a few notes back (over 8 yrs ago),
    a fellow noter mentioned keeping the leg/thigh meat as well. I feel a
    bit guilty at not having made full use of the birds, and would be
    interested in further info/opinions regarding the dressing and
    preparing of the game.   
    

    
    WANT GOOSE! New Jersey's got them. There are so many here that after
    the Division of Fish Game and Wildlife finally justified that we have
    too many RESIDENT geese we started the goose season this past monday.
    
    5 birds a day! These things are everywhere every corporate pond, catch
    basin, and golf course is over run with the darn things.It's bad when
    prople have to worry about the goose droppings in the parking lots and
    tracking them into the buildings.
    
    ps. best goose recipe as related to me by a friend:
    
    		Take one goose cleaned and ready to cook
    		put on 8" wide piece of pine board in oven,
    		cook at 350 till done,
    		take out of oven,
    		scrape bird off board into garbage,
    		cut up pine board and eat it,
    		it will taste better.
    
    Most likely from someone who didn't know how to prepare the bird. Real 
    suggestions on how to put it on the table and enjoy it would be
    welcome.
    
    /Irv
    p.s. Gone Bear Huntng to Maine be back in a week.

    
    My recipe:
    
    Cut breast meat off bone and save legs. Marinate all meat in
    soy sauce/garlic mix (to taste, I like lots of garlic!)
    Broil like you would a steak, all the while basting with soy sauce/
    garlic/butter mix. Thats it. The legs will cook quicker than the 
    breast meat so watch it. If you like steak med/rare cook your goose
    that way too. This also works with ducks.
    
    
    Walt

    Hmmm...
    I think I prefer Walt's recipe to Irv's, as pine board usually gives me
    gas. 
    
    My usual method of preparing duck was to thinly slice the breast meat
    and stir fry it with bell pepper and garlic. Not too strong to distract
    from the natural flavor, and mellowing enough to remove any gamey-ness
    that may have snuck in.
    
    BTW, the day limit here is 5 birds also. They're quite plentiful all
    about the place, including, every once in a while, the parking lot here at 
    MRO. I wonder if security would mind if I.....no, probably not.
    
    -Jeff