Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Well there are some important lessons to be learned from that note!
    I am not surprised that a 5 month old pup would rather play than
    hunt.  It is really important if you use an assistant to discuss
    thoroughly with them before hand what their role is, and they should
    not deviate from it!  Glad that your pup is showing such resiliancy.
    My advice, even though you didn't ask for any, is don't listen to
    your brother, and get a book on training spaniels.  I think that
    Ken Roebucks book is very good.
    	Linda

    re:2
    Jeff, you've been writng your reply for quite some time now. I don't
    know if I'll time to read it after your finished.

    Jim

    What can I say, I'm loooooooooooong winded.  Actually what I did
    say is this.  Somehow it go hung up.
    
    When you go out training you should go out there with a purpose.
    Have a battle plan of what you want to acomplish in that session.
    Be organised.  Don't train just to train, but train to reach a goal.
    For instants, I am currently working Skeet on blind retrieves. He
    developed a minor problem of "sucking" to land when doing blinds
    in the water.  So on my last couple of sessions I set up tests that
    forced him to make long swims in narrow channels.  In order to complete
    the blind he couldn't hit land.
     Re: training with your brother.  Please don't take offense, but
    if he is really knowledgeable about training he should have known
    better then to pop that bird over a young pup.

    re: 4
    No offense taken Jeff, my brother has to much pride to admit a
    mistake. I take what he says with a grain of salt, and the only
    reason I listen to him is because he is successful in training
    his own dogs. He shot because he hasn't had a pup in over three
    years, he realised his mistake. You hit it on the nose though,
    about being organised. My mistake was not informing him of my 
    goals. I'm having good success now training on my own.
    
    The past two days have been devoted to getting her enthusiasm up
    for birds, and getting into the truck and to the field without her
    getting car sick. Bird enthusiasm is up and so far two trips in
    the truck with no sickness. Also, yesterday I shot the shotgun
    while she was retrieving the pigeon, and no gunshyness. Thank God!

    Jim

    Can anyone tell me what the going price for live pigeons are?
    Thanx.
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    	there isn't a going price. The ones I got this week end were
    free. Other times I've paid $1.50 each for them. I wouldn't
    pay more than $2.00 each for pigeons.
    
    Jim

    Anywhere from 0 to $2.00 and up.
    
    Jim,
      It sounds like your on the right track with your pup.
    
    Jeff

    re .7 & .8 Thanks for the replies. Yes, the time has come to start
    her on the birds. Should be alot of fun. The reason I wanted to
    know how much the birds cost is because I'm thinking about getting
    a trap, I think I could justify the cost of the trap which is about
    $25.
    
    Rick

    re:9
    Rick,
         are you going to make one or buy one ? I'm thinking of making
 one. If your making one and have plans let me know, I've got an idea
    but any new ideas could help.
    
    Jim

    Are there any laws against trapping/catching pigeons in Mass?

    Thanks in advance
    Rich

    Lets toss this one out and see what we come up with. 
    
    The Mass fish and Wildlife Laws read  "Closed Season throughout
    the year on all birds and mammals not mentioned herein or in 
    Massachusetts migratory bird regulations."
    
    Also under the prohiited section of hunting regulations "Possession
    of any protected wildlife dead or alive, taken from the wild, except
    by permit."
    
    Now Pigeons also known as Rock Doves have no open season in Mass.
    
    So now we come to the quetion, if you trap or posses one are you
    poaching?
    
    Bill who dosn,t want anyone to get snaged by a catch 22
    

    re: .10
        Jim, I'm thinking about buying the trap and maybe making a holding
        cage.
    
    re: .11 
        Rich, I called the CT DEP and they are sending me a permit to
    catch pigeons. It is not required they said but they recommend it
    to show in case anyone hassles you. The CT law says that you have
    to release the pigeon unharmed, but the guy I spoke with said they
    (DEP) don't want to know what you do with them after you catch them,
    i.e. (release, shot or sell). 
    
    Rick.

    RE: .10, .13
    	I'd make the trap....All you really need is a box structure
        18 x 24 x 8 covered with chicken wire. An access door on the
        top large enough for hand/arm to retrieve the trapped birds,
        and a one-way access door(s) on the side(s) to allow entry
        to food/bait. It would probably take a couple evenings to 
        construct, and a few less $$$ than buying.
    
    	A good net with a long handle and overpasses works too. 
    
    dave

     Here's what I have been told by the Ma F&G personel.  There _is_ a
    law against using any live animal for training dogs.  The law was
    intended to stop people from letting coon dogs rip up raccoons in
    enclosed areas.  I guess that this is a method of training coon
    dogs to be tough.  I don't really know, as I never had coon dog.
    Anyway, the MA legislature in there infinite wisdom, signed a law
    that bans the use of live animals for training.  However, everyone
    I talked to at the F&G dept. said that they wouldn't bother anyone
    for popping pigeons UNLESS they got a complaint.  Then they wouldn't
    have much of a choice.  So if you do it. just make sure that know
    anti's are watching.  Of course I would never be so mean as to murder
    a poor, defenseless bird........
    
    Jeff                                                             

    Technically that means you would poaching. I am not to sure about 
    doing this. I would really hate to be seen in the newspaper as the
    "Charlton Pigeon Poacher". :-) 

    I think I'll do a little more digging to see if there is a legal
    way of doing this. 

    Thanks for the info.
    Rich

    I called my local region 5 law enforcement division and got the ok from
    them for what ever thats worth. I think if and when I do use pigeons I
    will follow Jeff's advise and keep it on the low profile.
    
    Rich

    Well, the maturity of a dog changes by the week. Three weeks ago I
    was concerned about my pups attitude around guns and birds. This
    week-end ended all my fears about her hunting attittude and
    capabilities. I had a good supply of pigeons to work with and 
    Nikkie performed well. The gun shot doesn't bother her anymore
    in fact she is looking for a dropped bird at the sound of the gun.
    I had a problem last week-end with her refusing to pick up a dead
    bird. She got over that this week-end. I thought I would have to
    tie  a dead bird to a string and tease her with it, but she got over
    it on her own.
    She is also holding steady to wing and shot. Right now its a matter
    of experience and maturity. Next monday grouse and partridge
    season opens, I'll probably just take her out in the back of
    my house for some fun.

    Jim

    	I have a Chesapeak Bay retriever used only for duck hunting.
    I got her when she was 4 years old and was told she wasn't ever
    hunted. I find that hard to believe after finally trying her this
    year. She does have her problems such as not sitting still and
    retrieving an occasional decoy on long retrieves. 
    
    	This I can live with for the time being and eventually, break her 
    of these problems. The one problem I don't know how to break her of
    though is if she gets a duck dropped in the grass or on land, she
    will find it and procede to chew the hell out of it. If I call her
    she will come and leave the duck there. It's like, you want to praise
    her for finding it and then punish her for chewing it. This of course
    would be conflicting to her.
    
    	I heard of one method to break her of chewing ducks but it sounded 
    a little cruel. Does anyone have any suggestions on this ?

    	RAYJ

    Ray,
      Will she hardmouth a bird in the water?  Has she been force fetched?
    Does she come reliably when you call her?
    
    Jeff

    	Jeff,
    
    	She is never what I would call soft mouthed. On one retrieve
    she made on the water, she sunk her teeth into the bird. She may
    have done this because the bird was partially alive but I'm not
    sure. When she is on something she can stand on though (i.e. not
    swimming), she will start chewing on the bird and will not retrieve 
    it.
    
    	She pretty much comes every time you call her. One time however
    she came within 10' of the canoe, turned and jumped back into the
    canoe and was reluctant to come back into the canoe.
    
    	I don't know what force fetched means. I also don't know what
    prior training she's had. I do know that the person that gave me
    the dog got 2 and he kept the male. The male has the same problems
    as my female.
    
    	RAYJ

    Ray,
      Pat Perry could give you a better explanation of force fetching
    a dog then I can.  However I'll try.  Force fetching involves
    conditioning the dog so that no matter what, when you send him for
    a bird, he will retrieve it.  It takes awhile to do, not something
    that is done overnight.
      Hardmouth is supposed to be one of the hardest faults to cure,
    once it is thoroughly ingrained in a dogs behavior.  Alot of people
    think that it is a hereditary trait.  Your comment that a litter
    mate of your dog has the same problem would tend to support this
    theory.  Is the guy who owns the littermate the same person that
    use to own your dog?  If so, it could be a result of his training
    methods.  I would probably consult with a knowledgable trainer.
    However,and not to be a jerk about this, alot of "pros" won't deal
    with a dog that is hardmouth.  They may tell you not to waste your
    time.  This type of problem is usually very hard to cure if well
    established, and often is deemed incurable.  Good luck.
    
    
    Jeff

    	The person that gave me my dog did not have time for 2 dogs
    so I don't think he did much, if anything, with the female he gave
    me. I don't think the male is a litter mate. Both dogs were full
    grown when he got them (about 4 years old I think) and as I suspect,
    had some type of training from the original owners. I think they
    were a breeding pair. When he got the dogs he could have bought 1 for 
    $275 or had these 2 for $175 (or something like that). The male
    was neutered at this point. I guess the old saying "you get what you
    pay for" comes into play. I guess I can't expect to much for nothing.
    
    	My next door neighbor also has a female Chessie and she is soft
    mouthed and doesn't chew the ducks up in or out of the water. We
    use her every other time we go out. The first couple of times out
    she also went for the decoys and was hyper but has calmed down fairly
    well this year.
    
    	It sounds like the male may have been trained to force fetch.
    He once made a retrieve through over 200 yards of swale grass.
    Unfortunately though the duck was all chewed up by the time he got
    it back.
    
	RAYJ

    Ray,
     Force fetching a dog won't make him hardmouthed if done correctly.
    The thing that intrigues me about this is that both dogs out of
    the same litter, and originally owned by the same person are
    hardmouthed.  You have two common denominators.  I have heard that
    force fetching can actually help in hardmouth cases, but I have
    no first hand knowledge of this.  I would again suggest that you
    have a pro look at the dog and give you his honest opinion.  One
    thing I do know is that these type of problems tend to get worse
    rather then better if not checked.
    
    Jeff

    Hi,
    
    I need some advice from you dog-training experts.  Really!
    
    I have a 5 month black-lab pup.  Thus  far,  my primary goals have been
    (1) get him used to water and (2) get him interested in birds.  So far,
    so good.  He loves to play fetch with the dead pigeons in the field and
    is  really  "hitting"  the  water when retrieving dummies.  I know he's
    just a baby, sometimes he really shines  and  looks  just like the "big
    boys".
    
    He is developing a funny habit when retrieving  dummies.    Instead  of
    grabbing the dummy in the middle he picks it  up  by  the end where the
    piece of string is attached (land or water).  It's as though this makes
    it easier to carry or something.  Should I try and correct this?
    
    Also, he doesn't go straight  in  and  out, he likes taking short cuts.
    Should I try and correct this yet?

    Another thing I tried last night  that  was interesting.  I would throw
    the dummy way up in the air  and  far  out  into  the  water.   (Dog is
    watching with intensity).  At the peak of the arc, my wife shoots a .22
    blank  (to simulate shooting a flying bird).  At  this  point  the  dog
    doesn't act scared, more of a Who?  What?   Where?  I'm really excited,
    but  distracted  until the dummy hits the water (got that?).   At  that
    point  it's  "hell bent for leather" and he gets the dummy.   Should  I
    worry about this  momentary  distracted  behavior?    Should I *not* do
    this?  Any advice would be appreciated.

    Should I worry about this  stuff  yet?    If  so, how and when should I
    start correcting it?

    I  was  also  hoping  to  take  him  with me when I go dove hunting  in
    September.  Will this be too early?  He'll be about 7 months old.  

    Help me with my expectations.
    
    Also, can anyone recommend a good training book?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    +- Mark

    I'm just a beginner at dog training, so my advice may not be worth
    much, but here it is anyway:
    
    I don't know what to do about the dog carrying the dummy by the string.
    For awhile, I took the string off so Pepper didn't have that option.
    She still does that occasionally in the water.
    
    I wouldn't worry about the gunshot distracting the dog yet.  It sounds
    like the dog hasn't yet associated the gunfire with the retrieve.  It
    will soon.
    
    What you do about the short cuts the dog takes depends on what you
    demand from it.  If you insist on perfection and may want to run her
    in field trials, you probably should start correcting it.  I am
    definitely not qualified to say how.
    
    I started hunting with my lab when she was 7 months and suggest you
    do the same.  Living in NH, I haven't had the chance to have my lab
    retrieve doves, but I have heard that some dogs dislike retrieving
    them because the feathers come out in their mouths.  If that's true,
    you might not want to START with doves.
    
    The best book I've read is on retriever training by James Lamb Free.
    
    I know you are about to enjoy hunting more than ever before.
    
    Mark,
    

    I'm not sure I'm qualified to give you an opinion on all of the
    things you mentioned, but with regards to distraction fired by
    the gun, I'd like to offer an idea.  This is something you see
    in books and notes over and over again.  I tried it with my pup last
    summer starting at 7 weeks of age.  She now hears any gun and doesn't
    flinch or move her stare from the object of training.
    
    I used to have her hup while I prepared her supper.  Then I would set
    the bowl on the floor with me between the bowl and the dog.  Take
    your blank gun and fire it in the air (despite your wife's shriek).
    Then I would make the dog wait until I called its name and pointed to
    the food.  If the dog broke, I would start all over again with picking
    the bowl up and putting it on the floor.
    
    This may be a somewhat odd variation of the "fire the gun at supper
    time game" but it really has demonstrated good results in that:
    
    1) The dog never flinches when I shoot a shotgun and never has.
       She never flinched at the blank gun as a pup because she
       associated the shot with a very good experience.  Last night
       we shot pidgeons over her forthe first time and she never stopped
       watching the bird even when the shot rang out.
    
    2) It was very easy to teach the dog to stay, which she'll do forever,
       since she was already "steady to supper" :-)
    
    Bear?
    
    /brett

         
    Taking the shortcut always bothered me, don't know why, but I always
    wanted the dog to mark from my heel and go on a good line.  I guess
    it really matters when your working in thick brush, or a real long
    retrieve, if the dog wavers from the start, it will most likely loose
    it's mark.  This is why I corrected my dog of this at a very early age.
    
    First my dog knew the stop command, and hand signals.
    
    I found a small pond, maybe 50 yds. long by 20 yds. wide.  I stood on
    one bank, and threw the dummy across the pond to the other side (on
    land).  She didn't really want to take the short cut (which is straight
    across) but she would run on the bank.  I had her correction coller on,
    and with a 10' piece of rope, really sent her on her heels when she
    ran on the bank.  Scolded her, brought her to heel, marked her, sent 
    her again....until she went straight across, and she was praised alot.
    This cured her 90% of the time, sometimes on a long beach, when I throw
    a dummey in the water, but away from me (at an angle to the beach), she
    would still line up straight with the dummy for the shortcut, this took
    very minimal correction, I stopped her, heeled her, sent her again,
    sure enough it worked just fine.  Still she's 4 years old, and 1 out of
    every 200 retrieves she will test me on the shortcut, but I don't give
    in, this maybe just normal behavior.  They make mistakes too. 
    
    It was easy to do, and it worked great.
    
    Kevin

    Re: .25
    My 2 bits..
    	I think you have made super progress with your pup. At 5 mos.
    getting any king of predictable behavior is an accomplishment. Can you 
    think of how it must feel to have a mouth full of teeth pushing thru 
    your gums an to be asked to precisely retreive a dummy. YUK!  I'll bet
    your Lab is teething. Right?
    
    	Re: short cuts- Desire and cooperation are the things you are
    growing in puppy training. Sounds like you've got both going don't 
    rush it.  
    
    Having a 7 month old pup in the field is great to experience..Watch
    them learn.. Sacrifice some of your hunting accomplishment this year
    to insure the dog gets to have some fun and learn about what he's for.
    At least you could do for him is take him to the "field" with a veteran
    Lab. You can't believe what they'll learn from watching another dog
    work.
    
    I think if you can MASTER the COME command in the presence of game the
    first year you've got it "knocked" in the future..
    
    Re: Books--- I think the WATER work Section of the NAVHDA Training
     Manual is the best around. If you want to get one, I have several
    left from the pack that I bought to give out with my last litter of
    GSP's. Send me mail.
    
    Jack---gone-to-the-dogs

    Well, I  took  Louie  out  for  his first "official" hunt.  Dove season
    opened here in  Colorado  this weekend.  Here is our report, but I have
    questions to follow...
    
    First some background...
    
    I have been working "some"  with  Louie,  out  in a field on fetching a
    canvas dummy (no real scent work),  just retrieving on command only.  I
    use the word "back".  I've had  someone  out about 30-40 yards, shoot a
    blank pistol, then throw the dummy.  I make Louie stay at heel, until I
    give the "back" command.  He goes out, gets  the  dummy and comes back.
    He's only 7 months old, and I think doing a  pretty  good  job.   While
    training, he isn't breaking and does a pretty straight retrieve (he's a
    black  lab).    He's  not gun-shy, in fact, he really gets "psyched-up"
    when he here's gun-shots.
    
    First day of hunting...
    
    We get out to where we're going to hunt about 7:00 am.  I figure to let
    Louie sort of do his "own thing" off lead.  In other words, stay within
    about 5 to 10 yards from me, but let him sniff and stuff on his own.  I
    didn't expect him to "heel" all day.
    
    We head for some trees where there are  dove,  there  are three hunters
    and Louie.  First thing that happens is Louie  flushes a rabbit and it's
    "good-bye" Louie.  I'm screaming "Louie NO", but it's useless.   I mean
    his chase instinct is in high gear with the rabbit.   When training, he
    always came when I called him, but hunting...  Oh well.   I let him go,
    what  else  could  I  do,  except  maybe shoot him in the butt with  my
    12-gauge.   After I get him back, I put a 10-foot check chord, to  keep
    him closer.  
    
    Next significant event was when we flushed out our first group of dove.
    It was very confusing.  Birds everywhere, guns  going  off  everywhere,
    Louie  watching  all the *flying* birds, but not the  *falling*  birds,
    running  from  hunter  to  hunter  expecting  to  find  a canvas  dummy
    somewhere.  It was nuts.  I can't really blame him  for being confused,
    I mean even I get confused, when dove hunting.

    All  morning,  I'm showing him where the dead birds are instead of  him
    showing me.   I'm really getting frustrated.  I can't decide whether to
    blame him or  me.    I  sort  of  assumed  that  allot of this would be
    natural.
    
    Finally, he sort of started to get the idea.  I knocked down a bird but
    it was only wounded.   It  landed  in  some tall weeds.  Louie and I go
    over to  find him, and the birds starts to flap around and run off into
    the tall weeds.    Zip!!    There  goes Louie!!  He's rooting around in
    these weeds and all I can see is his tail going 100 mph and zig-zagging
    around in these weeds after  this  bird.   Next thing I know I call him
    back and here he comes with  this  dove.  Good boy!!!  I think alright,
    now he's got it!  Wrong.   A  few  minutes  later I hit another one, he
    sees it go down, I send him after  it,  he finds it and just sniffs it,
    licks it a couple of times and just stands  there  looking  at  me.   I
    think he was wanting to chase this one, but it  was already dead.  I go
    over and kick it away from him and he pounces on  it,  picks  it up and
    brings it back.  I guess he just wants me to wound  them  and  let  him
    play with them.  (sigh)
    
    Well we  spend the rest of the day in this mode.  If he saw it go down,
    he would run over to it, sort of lick it, maybe pick it up and bring it
    back half way.   It  he  didn't  see it, I couldn't get him to sniff it
    out.
    
    Next day...
    
    We get out early again,  I  hit  a  bird, he sees it drop, he takes off
    after it (before I tell him  "back").   He picks it up, brings it right
    back to me.  Now I don't  know what to do.  Should I praise him for the
    good retrieve or scold him for breaking too  soon?    I chose to praise
    him for the retrieve.
    
    All in all, he did allot better the second  day on the retrieves, but I
    started  having problems keeping him with me.  Every now  and  then  he
    would  get  wind  of something (rabbits, pheasant, deer?), I don't know
    what and he'd be off like a shot.  Fortunately, since there was nothing
    moving, I got him to come back, but it was a little irritating.
    
    I'm  convinced he thinks his name is no longer "Louie", but "Louie-NO!"
    :-)

    Ok, here are the questions...
    
    In regards  to the "breaking", should I continue to work with him while
    wearing a check chord?  Should I use this when hunting, or whenever I'm
    working with  him?    He seems to be associating the gun-shots of other
    hunters with "goodness".    I  believe this is because I've had helpers
    shooting at a distance  and  then  he goes and gets the dummy over near
    their shot.  So he  kept  breaking over to other hunters.  Also, when a
    low flying bird would come by  he  would  break after it.  How do I get
    him to flush and then *not* chase it?

    As far as picking up the dove  (and  pheasant  in the future), should I
    put some feathers around the canvas dummies and  spray with scent?  Are
    the feathers bothering him or what?

    When  he  is  sniffing around and concentrating on tracking (whatever),
    how do I get him to come immediately to me?

    Is dove hunting too confusing?  I mean are we starting bad habits?
    
    And finally, am I expecting too much from a  pup?    I  mean he doesn't
    even lift his leg yet?
    
    I guess I'm wanting him to be a field champion and I don't even know if
    I'm doing things right or  wrong.  Any help, encouragement, correction,
    reproof would be accepted and greatly  appreciated.  I'm open to books,
    video-tapes, classes, but I can't afford to spend mega-bucks and have a
    professional train him.

    What do  you  think?  Are we doing "ok"?  What should we be working on?
    I really want him to help with pheasant hunting in November!!!

    Thanks,
    
    +- Mark

    Hi Mark,
    
      Welcome to the wonderful world of dogs.8*)  As the song goes
    "Mama said there'ld be days like this."
    
    Anyway, some comments:
    
    _ Louie is still a pup.  Being a pup means that he will be inconsistant
      at best.  He will have good days and bad.  As he gets older the
      good days will hopefully increase and the bad days decrease.
    
    - Louie should have had some yard work with live birds or freshly
      killed birds before being taken hunting.  Hunting by nature is
      an uncontrolled situation.  A dogs first encounter with the real
      thing should be set up and thought out so that the dog has a pleasent
      and productive experience.  Do some yard work with pigeons before
      you take him in the field again.
    
    - re: breaking.  Your in a tough position.  First you want him to
      make the retrieve, but at the same time you want him steady. 
      My advice would be to fore go taking him hunting until he is steady
      and retrieving live birds reliably in the yard.  Then take him
      on a hunt where you and he and one other person are the only people
      around.  Let the other gunner do most of the shooting, while you
      concentrate on the dog. Make him sit and stay.  Be in control
      of the situation.  Work your way up till he can handle the
      distractions associated with a full blown hunt.
    
    Good luck
    
    Jeff                                                         

    This is not a frustration (at least not yet).  Can someone tell me what
    "sit on flush" means?
    
    I heard a guy mention  this  in  a  conversation  and  wondered what it
    meant.  Is this where the  dog flushes, say a pheasant, then sits until
    you either send him on a fetch  or  come-when-called?   If so, how does
    one teach this?  Or... is it potty training your dog?  :-)
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    +- Mark

    Mark,
      Yep, that is what it is (your first guess :-) ).  To train it
    you first have to train the dog to hup (sit) to a blown whistle,
    while running and at a distance from you.  Then you can throw
    dummies and blow the whistle,  then release a bird, and finally
    have the dog flush a bird.  Eventually the dog should hup to
    whistle, flush, and gun-shot (if the dog didn't see the flush).
    I would recommend getting a book or video tape on the process.
    	Linda

    I have both Ken Roebuck's book and video tape which describe the
    process.  I would lend either of them to you through the mail, except
    you are in Colorado, right?  Would they survive cross country company
    mail?  The book is called Gun Dog Training Spaniels and Retrievers.
    It goes into alot of detail.
    	Linda  

    One thing Ken R. recommends is to hup the dog when he is heading
    towards you ( on a swing back ) so that you can correct him easier
    if he doesn't do it.  I found that the sound of a fired blank got
    Freda's attention better than the whistle, although you should teach
    both.  Before you start throwing dummies with your dog at a distance,
    he should be line steady (wait at your side until you send him on the 
    retrieve). There are alot of steps, which is why I think reading a 
    book would help.   
    	Linda
    	p.s. Isn't 8 months kind of young to worry about steadiness?