Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    My thoughts on rifles in Maine (yes, rifles are legal in Maine).
    
    Everyone has his or her preference of firearm to use, but I think
    most of us will agree that it is the terrain that will dictate what
    calibre to use, whether or not to use a scope, etc.
    
    The areas I've hunted in Maine are comprised of very thick forests
    interspersed with swamps.  RARELY would a hunter have a shot at
    a deer from more than 75 yards, unless hunting an area that has
    been cut by logging crews.  Typical shots are between 20 and 50
    yards.
    
    I prefer my Winchester Model 94 in a .30-30 caliber.  My father
    shoots a .32 Special Model 94 or Savage .308.  Other hunters in
    our party shoot anything from Weatherby .300 Magnum (in my opinion
    a case of overkill) to .270 Winchester.  Several other hunters in
    the party shoot Winchester .30-30s.
    
    Again, it depends on the terrain, and the amount of walking you'll
    do in the woods.  Because I'll typically walk 4-8 miles in the
    course of a day's hunting, I prefer not to carry a cannon.  The
    guy who shoots the Weatherby is used to hunting Vermont, which is
    alot more open terrain than northern Maine.  The first year he hunted
    Maine, he shot a nice 6 pointer at 30 yards, which literally took
    the whole back side of the deer's neck off.  Wasted some meat. 
    He was also the first guy back to the truck in the afternoon due
    to the fatigue factor.  His rifle was extremely heavy.
    
    I also hesitate to mount my scope for Maine hunting because of the
    dense cover.  There are, however, many hunters who use a scope and
    are successful.  I don't need the hassles with snow, rain, leaves,
    etc. getting in the scope sights.

    Mark.

    The firearms notesfile has many notes on this topic.
    
    The file is located on ALIEN::FIREARMS
    
    Some relevent notes are 34, 39, 42, 342, 343.
    
    The was one entitled "Is a 30'06 too much for deer?" wheich became
    quite the debate between those who say you can't have too much and
    those who say you can.  I couldn't find it though.
    
    The file does have keywords and if you do a 
    
    SHOW KEY
    
    command you'll get a list of them.  Me and another guy on the file
    have slowly been working to attach the existing keywords to the
    old notes.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Rich

    
    
    
    	A Browning BLR in 308 would handle just about and hunting condition
    you'd encounter in Maine hunting whitetails and the rotory bolt
    helps with accuracy, while the lever action insures quick follow
    up shots.... It gets my vote over a bolt action........
    
    
    							john
    

    Thanks folks! I'm off to FIREAMRS.NOTE to check out those entries...
    
    My friend has access to some private land in Maine, so he should
     know what the terrain is like. I'll have to get more info from
     him... I might even be tempted into going up with him!
    
    		Thanks again,
    			Robert.

    RE:0 oooooooohhhhh, your opening up a mean can of worms here....:-)
    
    Fra

    Forget about Brownings (unless it's Belgian).  Why buy a Jap gun?
    
    Any rifle is fine for Maine.  .300 Weatherby Mags and such are
    overkill,but you can load down.  Idoubt if the person that .0 is
    talking about loads, though.
    
    Maybe .30-06 is or isn't overkill, but it is safe to say you don't
    need a .30-06 to take down any deer in Maine.  If you like the taste
    of venison, you can go with a little less power.
    
    I like my .30-30 just fine.  I have a Marlin because I like the
    side eject over the Winchester top eject.  
    
    I also will be seen carrying my H&K .308 this year.....no scope;
    heavy gun.
    
    I do carry a Remington 742 in .30-06 sometimes, but not because
    I need it.  I just like to carry it because it is a very short carbine
    and pretty accurate.
    
    You might ask "what isn't a good deer gun?" instead.
    
    Brett.  

    Re .6 What's wrong with japanese guns ? NOTHING. My Miroku-
    built browning pump shucks smoother than any 870 I've ever
    handled. The Weatherby pumps are excellent. 

    I might as well make the worm can bigger.  In my possibly ignorant
    opinion, everything from Japan is junk.  Especially their guns and
    cars.  They cheap rock-gut steel.  When you close the door to their
    cars, it sounds like dropping an empty Bud can in the trash can.
    
    I had a Citori and it kept rusting inside the chamber.  Other people
    told me that happened to them too.  I got rid of it.
    
    I do own a Weatherby .300 WM and like the gun, but wish it were
    made somewhere else.  I like it because it has an awesome stock.
    I'll sell it when I get the right offer.
    
    European guns; fine.  Jap guns; forget it.
    
    Brett.  (Made in USA)

	re .6:
    
    
>    I like my .30-30 just fine.  I have a Marlin because I like the
>    side eject over the Winchester top eject.  
 
    I believe Winchester introduced a side eject version of the Model
    94 in 1985 or 1986.  I remember reading a Jim Carmichael article
    about it and the fact that you can now suitably mount a scope on
    the Model 94 because of the side eject.
    
    Mark.

     Let me see now.  I have a Citori that I've owned for about three
    years.  During that time I've averaged around 100 to 150 rounds
    a week through it on the skeet field.  That would come out to around
    15k rounds of shells.  Haven't had one malfunction to date.
    I like the gun, I also hunt with it.
    
    Re: Rusty chamber
      There's a new invention on the market called a cleaning rod. 8*)
               
    Jeff

    Mark, Do you want your cucumber bruised. ( I assume you took
    the screamming viking from the show )
    
    Jap guns..... seems like brett sure has stuck his foot in his mouth.
    
    I like fine guns and some jap guns are good and some ain't.
    The parker reproductions are nice guns but I would just as
    soon put my money in the real McCoy.
    
    Winchester Diamond grades seem nice. Never owned one though.
    
    Personally out of all the products coming out of Japan I think
    there guns are real competive with the rest of the world in quality
    so why would I try to avoid one.
    
    Because if at all possible I would try to buy a gun that will
    appreciate in value over the years not depreciate in value.
    
    Now as far as Chambers rusting I think that was caused by one of
    two things. Either no cleaning and condensation along with
    power residue or the use of powder solvant in cleaning and then
    not taking the time to remove solvant and apply a thin coat of oil.
    
    I beleive the solvant if left on in the barrel will speed up rusting
    and since the chamber is larger than the bore sometimes even if
    you try to dry patch it , It will be left behind.
                         
    Bear

    No, no, no, no.....I always clean my guns.  Ask my gunsmith.  I
    used to live on the beach in Florida for 8 years.  Plastic rusts
    in Florida.  None of my guns has rust on them because they get an
    oil bath once a month (or more) weather they've been used or not.
    
    If y'all want to go and buy guns from Japan because labor is cheap,
    then go ahead.  I usually find that you get what you pay for.  And
    I don't think many people will argue that the quality of Japanese
    steel is much lower than that used by Western Europe and the U.S.
    
    Nope, for my money, I won't buy Japanese cars or guns.  I'll do
    my best to keep my money in the USA or at the very worst, Western
    Europe.
    
    Next you'll be saying you buy Mitsubishi Computers because they're
    just as good as American Computers.  You buy what you want.
    
    They probably do a lot of deer and upland hunting in Japan too,
    so they probably know what it takes to build a good gun.
    
    When I go Partridge hunting in Vermont this weekend, I am taking
    my American made 12 gauge side by side and my Italian made Beretta
    20 gauge over and under.  I'll be going in a Chevy truck.  Not one
    dime of my weekend will be going to Japan's economy.
    
    Have a nice weekend,
    
    Brett.

    The Japanese guns are all built on American designs - eg. Browning
    BPS = Ithaca 37 = Rem. model 17 = John Browning patents. And I've
    yet to see a subcompact American car that will match my Honda Civic.
    
    Re. rusty chambers - could be they didn't take the chrome or were
    rechambered after plating.

    Re. Winchester 94's
    
    	I have one that I got as a gift 2 years ago and it has angle
    eject. I just mounted a 1.5-4.5 power scope on it with see through
    rings. Seems to work fine. I'm happy with it. In comparison to the 
    Marlin 30-30, I think that Marlin puts more workmanship into their's. 
    I however prefer the safty (no cock vs. half cock) on the Winchester 
    over the Marlin. Both guns have their good and bad points.
    	The bottom line is that both are more than adequate deer guns.
    Also, I can safely say that the 30-30 round has proved itself effective
    for deer hunting hundreds of thousands of times.
    
    	RAYJ
   

    
      I was the originator of "30-06 too much for deer?" note in the
    firearms notefile (note #737). It turned into a pretty good pi__ing
    contest, but I believe that it brought out some good points. Namely
    "just how much rifle do you need out there"?
    
      One side advocated 200 to 400 yard "running shots" at deer as
    long as "you considered yourself proficient at this type/range of
    shooting". I countered that it was pretty irresponsible to take
    those type of shots at any time (especially for myself :-) and made
    the case for the older calibers (30-30, 35 remington, 44 mag in
    rifles, etc.).
    
      Generally speaking, if you're going to be in the crap all day,
    and you don't anticipate coming to the edge of a large field or
    farmland for a possible shot, then all that is needed is something
    in the 30-30's power range. If you can reasonably expect long shots
    such as what you'll see in farm country, or out in the open expan-
    ses of the west, then by all means get a scoped bolt gun in a cal-
    iber like 30/06, 308, 270, etc. 
    
      I never believed that weight mattered all that much a while back.
    Now, I know better. Yeah, I could haul a big heavy scoped bolt rig
    all over the hills, swamps, boulder fields, etc. but why carry the
    extra baggage when a nice light 7lbs or under carbine will do the
    trick? I hunt with a "pre US REPEATING ARMS" M94 in 375win with
    a peep sight. Since I don't ever anticipate a 100 yard + shot the
    peep is just right and it doesn't add any weight or bulk to the
    hunting rifle. I also omit the sling. You don't need it when your
    rifle weighs 6 1/4 pounds loaded, and your rifle is ALWAYS at the
    ready in your hands. I found that I carried the Sako I hunted with
    slinged in rough terrain. That could cause a missed oppurtunity.
    After the deer has been taken I find putting the M94 through my
    hunting belt like a sword the best possible way to haul it out.
    None of this carrying it out with a sling for me. I found that the
    heavy slinged rifle will fall off the shoulder while hauling out
    a deer. If you tried to fix that by slinging it accross your back
    it tends to get mighty uncomfortable, and cuts off your wind.
    It really gives you a lot of satisfaction to take a deer cleanly
    without all the high-tech gadgets that are available today. Range
    finding scopes, magnum calibers, aimpoints, YEECH! Stick with a
    basic Marlin or Winchester in 30-30, 35 rem, 375, or even the 1894
    Marlin or M94 winchester in 44mag is a good ticket for thick woods
    deer hunting.
    
      Let us know what you decide on. And no matter what you buy, prac-
    tice, practice, practice, and you should be able to take your deer
    cleanly....
    
    
    Joe 

    Joe, just for shits and grins, what state do you do your hunting
    in?
    
    I used to hunt with a Marlin 30-30 for a couple of years, and really
    loved the gun, until I started hunting in Vermont on open dairy
    pasture, hardwoods, and the occasional swamp. It was then that I
    opted for a scoped 270, as most shots were in excess of 100 yds with the
    opportunity for those out to 300-400. 
                           
    Besides the obvious need for a scope at these ranges, it is essential
    when trying to differentiate between baldies and bucks, and ensure 
    proper length of horns in this bucks only state.  While you might
    say that a good pair of binoculars will eliminate the need for a
    scope, try using them when your glassing 4-5 deer strolling briskly
    through the woods at 100 yds and have to find antlers, pick out
    the one that has them, then pick up the gun and locate the buck again.
                                
    While in NH where they don't have bucks only season (at least during
    the first couple of days) a scope is not necessary, but for people
    like me who have poor vision, a scoped rifle/shotgun is essential.
    
    Now if I were to use the 30-30 again in NH, were does are legal
    and the cover is really thick, I would probably go with the raised 
    scope rings that allow use of iron sights, I would never use them 
    unless this was the circumstance.
    
    these are just my personal preferences and whatever anyone else 
    decides is fine with me.  Calibers???? whatever fit your needs and
    the terrain you'll be hunting.
    
    Fra
    
    

    re .16
    
      Yeah, your right. In fact, I'm in the process of putting together
    a "bucks only" rifle myself, complete with a very low power scope.
    
      But, as for myself, even if the state of NH goes totally buck
    only I'll still be using the peeped carbine more than a scoped
    rifle. Your scenario is a definite PLUS for a scoped rifle. I
    had almost that same thing happen to me 2 years ago while muzzle-
    loading. They were 50 yards away, and I could barely see the buggers
    through the brush. They were at a good trot and all I got were 
    fleeting glimpses of them. I don't think a scoped rifle would have
    helped (if it was regular rifle season that it...). Last year I
    got a big doe on the last day of "either sex" hunting. When I shot,
    the whole head was obscured, and the body from the front legs back
    was obscured by a tree. I took a neck shot at about 60 yards, and
    when she fell I still didn't know if it was buck or doe. Even in
    this instance I don't think a scope would've helped. What is more
    helpful (and an absolute rule) is to be patient and wait till you
    can see what it is (deer? moose?) and then identify it's sex. This
    means waiting till it's not so obscured by brush. But, as you stated
    your situation is perfect for scope use (as is open hardwoods, farm
    country, etc.)
    
      No, an iron sighted carbine isn't the best answer in all cases,
    but it's the best for most of the Northeast (my opinion :-) ...)
                                                                    
    
    Joe

    I agree that in some situations, such as either sex hunting
    in NH that a carbine with no scope is ideal, basically because you
    don't have to worry about spikes being 3" or more, or that there
    are even horns at all.  I know a couple of guys who hunt in NH,
    and have shot deer on several occasions, only to find out that they
    were bucks.  Of course, you have to be sure what your aiming at
    is a deer, but you don't have to waste time waiting to see the head.
    
    "If it's brown...it's down"
    
    carbines are best in these situations, and a scope is not necessary,
    however, as soon as you have the bucks only season, you'd better
    be hunting with a scope, otherwise you could run into problems: "is
    it a buck or a doe", "should I shoot or not", "are those horns long
    enough??".... you get the point Joe...  I like your style...
    
    Fra
    

    re: -1 "If it's Brown ... it's down"  Boy I don't like that way
    of thinking. I know two guys that have been shoot with that kind
    of thinking. That will get you or someone dead PDQ.
    
    To fix the problem of scope or no scope, get the see thru scope
    mounts. Then you can go either way...

    RE: "If it's Brown, it's down"
    
    That used to be the standing "joke" for new chums.  Tell them to
    wear their upland hunting togs (typically brown pants/jacket) and
    carry a white handkerchief hanging out of their back pocket on opening
    day...
    
    A dangerous approach to deer hunting.  Of course, I am used to "Buck's
    only" hunting, where you *must* determine that the deer has at least
    two horns *no less* than three inches long.  I have never hunted
    "any sex" deer.
    
    Always be certain of your target *and* backstop.  Someone's life
    may depend on it!

    Perry

    Re .20 
    
    Dont forget that most places that have a bucks only law also have
    permits for DOE'S. When it comes to another hunters actions I would
    never assume anything. Its just like driving down the highways of
    Mass. Same people and they all have a deadly weapon.
    
    Rich

    reply .21 
    
    yes there are doe permits but it seems only in New england do they
    run concurrent seasons. Not a safe idea ( in my opinion )
    
    In Pa. it is against the law to shoot a doe ( usually antler less)
    in buck season ( has to have antlers )
    
    as it is to shoot a buck ( with antlers ) in doe season.
    
    In practice the brown it down rule is dangerous if the animal
    has been properly identified. I recently read an article where
    a sports writer was reconized for his contrubution to manatory
    blaze orange law. Does any one know who is given credit
    for this contribution.?

    RE: .21 + .22
    
    Perhaps New England has concurrent Buck and Doe seasons, but in
    West Virginia, where I hunt, they have a one or two day Doe season
    *after* the Bucks only season.  It requires a seperate permit for
    Does and they only give out so many.  So, as a general rule, one
    has to determine that the deer in question is legal for the specific
    season.  For this reason alone, I would recommend a good scope.
    A low power scope with "peep through" mounts would be an ideal setup
    on a brush gun.  Personally, I use a 3-9x variable and keep it set
    to 3 or 4 power unless I really want to zoom in.
    
    Perry

    gentleman, in regard to the brown/down thing... i forgot to put
    a :-) or many of them.... please forgive me for the mistake... 
    if you read the note over carefully i did say that you must identify
    the game you will be shooting at. 
    While I understand everyone's concern regarding shooting at Brown 
    objects, I was merely making a point; that in non-bucks only states, 
    it is not necessary to look for antlers, you MUST and I HOPE *would* 
    determine if it was a deer before downing the game.  
    
    Maybe others don't as a practice identify their quarry,
    but I do, and by making this statement I am assuming everyone in
    this file understands this very vital rule.
    
    Again sorry for the misunderstanding,  Fra 
    

    Or....   I could have said for those who are english majors/those
    wanting to see needless details:
    
    "if it's brown (and is without a doubt, a deer), it's down"
                                                    
    I have just read my reply (.18) and it is hard to believe people
    could not understand what i was saying... please reread it...
    
    Fra
    

    Fra,
    
    Well, I guess I wasn't jumping on you so much as the statement.
    I accept that *you* don't use that philosophy, but obviously *some*
    hunters DO.  Why else would there be so many hunting "accidents"
    during Deer Season?
    
    Perry

    I just replied becuase I've seen it happen and don't want to see
    it happen again. Puts the fear of God into ya...!
    
    I moved to Colorado 4 years ago and have hunted here all 4 years.
    2 out of 4 years I have been shot at. Both where by out of state
    hunters. The last two years I've made an all out attempt to get
    deep into the woods where no one else will be. But even then there
    is still the chance that I'll run into some one.
    
    Mark

    Fra,
    
    In the literal sense the stand-alone statement of "if it's brown
    it's down" could imply many things i.e., leaves, dog shit, etc...
    However, since the contextual elements of your note clearly involved
    the hunting of deer I had no problem understanding you.  In fact,
    I am in total agreement.
    
    As far as this note goes.... If you are a stand hunter you are probably
    better off with a good adjustable high power scope and if you are
    a still hunter you are probably better off with a low power/no scope.
    These are my opinions and they are based on percentages.  My personal
    equipment includes a Pachmyer swing mount scope mount with a 3-9X
    variable on it.  This arrangement gives me the flexability of taking
    the scope completely off the gun, swinging it out of the way for
    heavy brush, or full use of the scope with "no" loss in scope accuracy.
    Another piece of equipment that I use are binoculars.  I feel that
    these should be used by all hunters instead of the rifle scope for
    glassing an area.  They are the solution for total muzzle control
    while afield.
            
    -Dave
    

    Re .0
    
    Back to your friend, Robert.  I noticed that there are two rifles
    for sale in Firearms notes file.  They are both Remington 742
    carbines.
    
    I have a 742 carbine in .30-06 (Too much for deer?)
    
    I happen to love the gun.  If you get lazy and carry it on your
    back, and you duck under a branch, the gun ducks too.
    
    Some people feel they aren't accurate and they jam.  However, I
    think that mine is incredibly accurate at 100 yards.  I have never
    had it jam on me and I've put about 1000 rounds through it.  I find
    if you clean your auto, it doesn't jam that much.  (I use reloads
    with it too)
    
    Anyway, the two carbines (note 1359 I think) are in .308 and the
    other is in .30-06.  
    
    I would probably recommend the .308 (personal prefernce) but if
    the .30-06 were in better condition, I would probably opt for it.
    
    Just thought I'd pass that along.
    
    Brett.

                  I use an old sporterized military rifle. It's a 7.65
    Mauser, with peep sights. All my deer (6) have been one shot kills
    and I believe it doesn't matter what you carry. If you don't know
    how to shoot properly. You could have the fanciest, most expensive
    rifle on the market and it won't do you any good. Choose a rifle
    that you are comfortable with and practice, practice, practice. My
    rifle and I get along just fine. I think I'll keep it. Besides, my
    Dad gave it to me, it's got sentimental value (if you know what I
    mean). Good luck in the field!

    Back to .0  i bought my first deer rifle this year, for out-of-
    state (vt.) hunting. It is a remington model 7 in 7mm-08. It has
    a short barrel (18 1/2"), is light, not much recoil, very accurate,
    the 140 gr. bullet retains energy very well downrange. the scope
    is a Bushnell Banner lightsite in 1 1/2 - 6 power -- the reticle
    has a red dot light up for low-light conditions. low power for thick
    stuff, 6 power for long range. All the versatility a deer hunter
    needs. Can't wait for november !!!! ;-)
    
    Dana

    
    re .30
    
    Speaking of sporterized military rifles...This will be my first
    season hunting deer. The rifle I am hoping to use is a Mauser
    (.257 Roberts) with a scope, also given to me by my father. From
    reading the previous replies, this seems like a light caliber 
    for deer. 
    
    Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Also why does .257 seem
    like such an unpopular caliber? 
    
    -Thanks
    

    
    re .32
    
      Sounds like a good deer rifle to me. The 257 Roberts is an ex-
    cellent rifle cartridge. It sorta faded away when the 243 and 6mm
    Remington came on the scene in the 50's, but has been making a 
    steady come-back ever since.
    
      It is based on the 7mm Mauser case necked to .25 caliber. It'll
    do just fine for all your deer hunting requirements.
    
    
    Joe

    My choice for an all round deer, and any other North American Big Game
    animal, rifle is a:
    
    340 Weatherby Magnum shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition bullet.
    
    Roy...
    

    Here we go again... ;^)
    
    Fra

    Here we go again? Nawwww!  :-)
    
    I kinda agree with the old far.. um, a, I mean, Roy :-)
    
    Afterall, would YOU face a Griz with a 30-30?!? or even a 30/06?!?
    Not me! And, an all around rifle MUST be able to do EVERYTHING without
    putting you into too much danger :-)
    
    So, the 340 WM may be too much for deer, but it's just right for the
    animals that an all-round rifle must be able to handle in the "top end"
    
    Would I hunt deer with one?!?  NO!
    
    Joe

    How about a .338?
    
    Jeff

    re: .37
    
    Fine, but the 340 has quite a bit more steam for those rare times when
    it just might be needed.  Difference in recoil is minimal, if at all
    noticable, so my personal perference would be the 340 Weatherby.
    
    Roy...
    
    P.S.  I'll agree that it is more than enough gun for most deer hunting
    situations, but I'm looking at an all-round, all-type deer rifle.
    
    

>>    <<< Note 31.38 by REDHWK::FULTON "A man has to know his limitations!" >>>
>>                        -< 340 has a little more steam >-

>>    re: .37
    
>>    Fine, but the 340 has quite a bit more steam for those rare times when
>>    it just might be needed.  Difference in recoil is minimal, if at all

Just a guess, but I suspect that a 340 Weatherby is more expensive
to buy, and more expensive to shoot than a .338 Winchester magnum.
Also, it's probably a lot easier to find ammo for the 338 than for
the 340.  For instance, let's say you make a trip to Wyoming or
someplace like that, and for some reason you don't have your ammo,
my guess is that it would be easier to find the 338 ammo.

I realize that proper planning, etc. would make this a non-issue, but
you never know.    

Jerry

P.S.  You wouldn't really carry a 340 for eastern whitetails, would you?

    Actually, a 340 *loaded down* wouldn't be a bad deer rifle. I'd hate
    to see what happens if you put a full-throttle softpoint in the 
    shoulder, tho'. 

    :-)
    
    Joe

    re: .39
    
    I haven't seen much of either available at the gun shops I frequent
    here in New England, except at Perry White's where I've seen both.  In
    the Western Pennsylvania gun shops I frequent, both are available.
    
    The 340 Weatherby does require a little more powder than the 338 but
    you typically can't get something worthwhile without paying something.
    
    Would I use it on Whitetail?  Most definitely!  Where permitted, my
    hunting methods now-a-days includes carrying a handgun.  If I'm hungry,
    the 340 would be used at any distance, but if not that handgun would
    take the nod for the short range stuff.  The proper bullet (like a
    Nosler partitioned 250 grain) in the 340 leaves a very nice wound
    channel with complete penetration.  From the deer I've examined, the
    larger diameter bullets, designed for moderate mushrooming and deep
    penetration, leave a lot more meat in edible shape than those little
    screaming demons and their typically violent mushrooming
    characteristics.  Both will put a deer down for keeps if the bullet is
    place properly, but the margin of error is typically higher and the
    amount of edible meat typically increases, as bullet diameter
    increases.  Now don't go crazy on me, this is only my views based on
    observations on several hundred deer I've examined with a Pa. butcher
    friend of mine over the years.
    
    Incidentally, the 458 Winchester and the modern 45/70 are excellent close
    range whitetail rounds when the proper bullet is used.  The both put
    the deer down quickly, while destroying minimal meat.
    
    Before someone starts yelling "over-kill", consider this.  When we go
    after a game animal, aren't our intentions to bring it to it's death? 
    I don't believe there are different degrees of dead.   How do you kill
    something deader than dead?
    
    Just for the record, when rifle hunting I use a 308 Norma Magnum for my
    whitetail deer hunting.  Why?  My Dad built this gun for me and since I
    rarely carry a rifle unless hunting with him, I use it.  It will
    definitely reach out there, and performs wonderfully.
    
    Roy...
    

    
    
    someone mentioned not using a .30-30 for bear....I have a funny story
    about that one...
    
    I went to a local gun-shop with the idea of seeking out a suitable
    rifle for my father for dispatching anything from a fox to a full blown
    bear (they were moving to vermont with a sizable herd of sheep). I
    picked a .444mag off the shelf and began to examine it. Upon asking one
    of the gents behind the counter what he would use for a bear, he
    replied "I'd use a .30-30!", in a tone that can only be discribed as
    disgust. My opinion is that he was either 1.) very stupid or 2.)
    extremely stupid. :*}
    
    Back to the subject, I'd just stick with a .375H&H and bring plently of
    ammo from home. That'll take care of any problems that may arise....:)
    
    
    				jim s.

>    Back to the subject, I'd just stick with a .375H&H 

 Don't care to kill and skin your game in separate steps? :-)

    Everyone has his own opinions, but bigger is not always better...
    
    Personally I'd feel a little overgunned with a .30 caliber... ;^)
    
    Fra

    re .43
    
      Was the gunshop in Vermont? If so, I could see the guy behind the
    counter saying he'd use a 30-30. Afterall, Black Bears take about as
    much "killin" as a whitetail for all intents and purposes.
    
      Griz is another story :-)
    
      So, calling the guy stupid, or extremely stupid is somewhat inacc-
    urate.
    
    
    Joe

     I agree with Joe.  Nothing real special about a black bear as far as 
    what it takes to kill one.  A 30-30 is plenty provided you can hit what
    your aiming at.  
    
    Jeff

    re: .44
    
    Yes I saw the smiley face, but your comment is one that comes up a lot
    concerning large caliber cartridges.  In fact it comes up so often that I
    sincerely believe that the majority of the shooting public has little
    knowledge of bullet design and what it really means to choose the
    proper one for the job.
    
    Use of large caliber cartridges DOES NOT MEAN the target is going to be
    blown to bits.  Regardless of the caliber and cartridge you use,
    improper bullet design can cause explosive results.  A 375 H&H with the
    proper bullet would be wonderful for all types of game.   Granted you
    would be using much more than the necessary amount of powder to
    dispatch game smaller than Mule deer, but it could still get the
    job done without blowing the target to bits if the proper bullet was
    used for each job.
    
    There is much more to choosing the proper bullet for a particular job
    than choosing a bullet weight.
    
    Roy...

 Yes, Roy, I realize that. Quite often, larger, slower bullet will actually
cause less meat damage than a smaller, faster bullet. But that wasn't the
point of my joking comment. I was just observing that a .375 H&H is a friggin'
cannon.

    Re: .49
    
    I knew what you were getting at and my comment really wasn't to you but
    to any newcommers to the shooting sports that may be reading these
    notes, and yes to those old-timers who still don't understand the
    differences in various bullet designs.
    
    I do a lot of teaching (N.R.A. courses) and gaurantee that such a
    comment will come out from at least one person every course - usually
    right after they find that I use my 44 magnum revolvers for everything
    from ants to moose, and that I'd use a .475 revolver if I had one. 
    These people typically have a very hard time understanding how a .44
    magnum can be used on rabbits, squirrels, etc, without blowing them to
    bits, and how much damage can be done with a hyper-velocity soft lead
    .22 hollow point to the same animals.
    
    I look at this notesfile as an opportunity to talk out these things so
    that all can understand.  Am I wrong in picking up on innocent, joking,
    remarks such as yours, and trying to make a point with them for the
    benefit of the un-knowledgable, un-informed and/or mis-lead?  I have
    learnt a lot of things from this notesfile and the Firearms notesfile,
    and in turn hope to be able to benefit others by relaying some of the
    things I've learned over the years.
    
    Roy...
    

    
>      Was the gunshop in Vermont? If so, I could see the guy behind the
>    counter saying he'd use a 30-30. Afterall, Black Bears take about as
>    much "killin" as a whitetail for all intents and purposes.
>      So, calling the guy stupid, or extremely stupid is somewhat inacc-
>    urate.
    
    	Yeah, I guess you have a point there. It's just that when I think
    bear, I think big....:) I s'pose a .30-30 would do the trick, but I'd
    rather have a little more oomph than that to feel secure...:*}
    
    	Plus the fact that I was buying the firearm for my dad who doens't
    shoot all that often. He sights in, maybe shoots the gun once a year,
    and puts it away. It's simply a pest control device...(a rather large
    one at that). I didn't want to get him a firearm where he'd need to be 
    sure of a vital hit in order to slow the beast down. Me thinks a .444
    even near a vital would cause a substantial shock channel and at least
    temporarily immobilize the brute. Am I wrong in my thinking???
    
    
    				jim s.

    The problem with using a deer rifle on bear is that, while a deer
    over 200 pounds is rather rare, bears can grow to over *five*
    hundred pounds. Since range, and retained energy, isn't a real 
    consideration, I think the 444 would have it all over the 30-30. 

    Dana:
    
      You have a point, sorta :-)   Yes, you hear about those 500 lbs
    bears (blackies), but they're very rare. Most are in the 150 lbs to 250
    lbs range. A big black bear takes about as much killing as a big
    whitetail, and a big whitetail will easily fall to a 30-30 bullet
    in the boiler room.
    
      Of course the 444 Marlin (it was called a "444mag" earlier) is 
    potent medicine for either, and is a nice chambering. But, I wouldn't
    feel undergunned in black bear country with a 30-30 either. You'd
    just have to take the proper shots at realistic 30-30 range is all!
    So, don't count the 30-30 out! It'll handle blackies within its
    intended range, no matter how big they are!
    
      Griz is another story...... Give me a 340 Weatherby for them
    Varmints!
    
      
    Joe      

    Maybe so, but I believe in being prepared for a 'worst-case' scenario
    myself. Being potentially undergunned when facing teeth and claws seems 
    a tad indiscrete ;-)

    
    	If your not safe with a 30-30 try having a bow in your hand. Is 6
    arrows enough, doubtful you could get 6 shots off within 40 yrds.
    
    /Ron