Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    The way I started my pup was with a cap gun while she was eating
    her nightly dinner. At first Dog will give you real wierd looks
    but after that they'll get use to it. Start off about 30-50 yards
    and work your way in as you go. This same idea is in alot of
    dog trainging books I've found. Worked for us.
    
    The problem I have is that Dog doesn't like water. So I have to
    go in after the birds, real pain. I know she's just setting back
    there laughing the whole time too...

    Firing a starter's pistol while the dog is eating is how I trained my 
    golden.  Problem is she's now afraid to eat.  :^)
    
    Mark.

    A book I read (Richard Wolter's GAME DOG) said to start off by
    banging a wooden spoon on the bottom of a pot while the dog is
    eating.  The idea is to associate loud noises with something
    good (food).
    
    Dave

    Re:-1
    
    	I'm probably way out of line, as I've never trained a bird dog
    (just used labs in the field), but...do you really want a dog to
    associate gun-fire with food?
    
    	I mean, you're not shooting down that duck/quail/whatever just
    to feed ol' Rover.
    
    	I'd think that if the animal is going to think of food, he may
    just go off and eat that Mallard you just shot down, instead of re-
    trieving it.
    
    	Like I said, I've never trained dogs, but this sounds kind of
    weird, to me.
    
    
    Galv
    ----

      I understand what your saying.  The idea is for the dog to
    associate the gunfire with something pleasurable, ie: eating.
    I usually have someone fire the gun while I'm playing with the pup,
    rather then eating.  If the dog has good retrieving instincts and
    is brought up correctly, either method works.  You only do this
    long enough to be sure that the dog won't react to the shot.  Later
    on in his training when you are throwing him marks and firing the
    gun, he will start to look for the bird on the shot.  I wouldn't
    worry about developing "hard mouth".  Besides a good retriever would
    rather retrieve then eat.
     Jeff

    Re:-1
    
    	O.K.  That set me straight!
    
    	I was just misreading the note.
    
    
    Galv
    ----

    	To change the topic slightly, when, how, at what age, can you
    	start using artificial scent in your training ( spaniel )?
    	I was thinking of something like laying a track to get her
    	interested in trailing.  Is it useful at all for a puppy?
    	  Linda

    Hi Linda,
      I used scent with my dogs on any work where they had to use there
    nose.  On marks where they should be able to see the fall I don't
    scent the dummies, I want them to use there eyes and memory. This
    conditions them to go right to the fall and  minimizes hunting.  With
    pups I think what ever you do is ok as long as you don't preasure
    them too much.  Simple tracks will help them later on, but be careful
    that she doesn't get frustrated and be prepared to help her out.
     You always want her to be succesful, no matter what.
    Jeff

      Is it a mistake to let other people throw things for the puppy,
    like her chew toys?  Usually if her toys are thrown she will carry 
    them off somewhere ( sometimes back to thrower ) and lie down and 
    chew them.  I noticed she was stalling on a couple of tosses, and then 
    she proceeded to just lie down with it.  I only use a puppy buck for
    simple retrieving lessons, and give her the fetch command every
    time.
      Linda

    I doon't throw ANYTHING for my dogs except dummies or birds.  The
    way I look at it is I don't want him bringing back a stick just
    cause he's used to playing with one in the yard.
    Jeff

    Hello folks, I have to start out and say how pleased I am of us
    now having "Hunting Notes" !!!!!!!!! Great Job!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
     As I have started many many gun dogs I thought that I would enter
    my ideas on introducing the gun and early retrieving. As some have
    already mentioned, conditioning the dog not only to react with the
    desired response, but to associate the response with something pleasant
    is very important. I like to start a dog off with chasing thrown
    objects. The objects at first may only be a rag tied into a knot
    that has bird scent on it. The dog is only encouraged to chase,pick-up,
    and carry the object around. As the dog does this, they are praised
    to the point that they start strutting around and thinking that
    "they" are the best thing that ever happened. THe dog finally gets
    to the point that they will stop at nothing to show off their stuff.
    When they reach this point, dead birds replace the knotted rag,
    and then finally planted or released live flying birds. What this
    does is just keep lifting the dog's interest until their is nothing
    in the world that interests our canine friend more than birds!!!
    Finally as the dog shows intense interest in  the game of chasing
    and picking up the object, the dog may be required to deliver the
    object. The next step is to introduce the gun as the dog is chasing
    the thrown object. It is important here to work up to the blast
    of a 12ga. gradually as mentioned earlier. The blank 22 is really
    a handy tool at this time. The things to look for at this point
    would be to see if pup stops while he is chasing and looks back
    at the sound of the gun, or stops in his/her tracks and comes back
    to you, or runs for the hills. Any of these things can indicate
    a sensitivity to the gun shot or gun shyness. As mentioned earlier,
    "Read the Dog" ! The desired response is to see that dog chase the
    thrown object without any hesitation when the gun is fired or act
    as though he/she never even heard the gun, becouse the dog's desire
    or attention should be solely fixed on the thrown object.
                                 
    hope this helps
    pat.
    

      Welcome back Pat!  My puppy loves the buck, as a matter of fact
      she would rather keep it to herself (not uncommon I'm sure).
      She is not that interested in the praise when she brings it back,
      but has her eyes rivited on the dummy.  Only about 1/4 of the
      time does she give it up on the verbal command alone (without
      me pressing on her lips).  When I put it away, she will bite
      at my clothes, or hands if I pet her (out of frustration?).  
      This is not typical behavior for her and she knows better.
      Maybe she just needs more time.
        Linda

    .11
    
    I heard that you left Digital to train dogs full time.
    
    I guess I got bad info.
    
    Brett.

    
    .12
    
     Thanks Linda, It sure sounds like your enjoying that new pup !
    
    .13 
     
     Brett, I took a leave of absence from DEC for personal reasons,
     but it's nice to hear that I was not forgotten !!!!!
     
    pat.
    

    Pat,
    
    Nice to see that you are back.  I'm sure you'll be a big help in
    this file.
    
    Hope everything is okay and we'll hear from you frequently.
    
    Bret.

    	I have just acquired another black lab pup. She is 8 weeks
    old as of today. The older dog (2 years) loves the pup and the
    pup loves the older dog. So at least they get along great. The 
    question I have is: Is it OK to let these two play together? Some
    time it is non stop for an hour. When I am not around the two are
    separated. I plan on doing all the initial training with the pup alone. 

               
    Rich

    Sure, it's good for both of them.  They'll tire each other out.
    I wouldn't worry about them hurting each other, the older one will
    quickly enforce the "pecking order".
    
    Jeff

    Glad to hear it. I just worry that the pup will take a bond to the
    other dog, and be more attentive to the other dog than myself. In
    other words as time wore on I was concerned that the pup wouldnt
    listen too well.
    
    Thanks
    Rich

	I've recently obtained a female lab/golden mix.  She's 4+
	months old, really energetic (except when she's sleeping),
	etc. ... all the signs of being a great little pup.

	She comes readily when I call her but other than this, I'm
	sort of hesitant to start her in any other training.  I
	don't want to push it at all/turn her off because I want
	to get on with it, etc. ... I have let her chew on a few
	quail wings and pheasant skins w/feathers attached and she
	does seem to get off on those smells ... seems to like the
	feel of feathers in her mouth, too.  :-)

	I know that each dog is different in ability and time table	
	for training but is there a normal schedule for what type
	training to get the dog into when?  Like: 

		6 weeks - dog should come when called/start using
			  scents and drags

		two months - dog should be coming to heel

		8 weeks - can start water training

	etc. ... get the idea of my questions?

	Hate to burn her out, hate to not give her enough training if she
	is ready/don't want her to get bored ... don't have a clue as
	it's really been a while since I've trained anything other than
	my kids and wife (the kids are still learning pretty good and
	the wife - well .... ;-)

	I think I can read her (the dog) pretty well but still would hate
	to botch it up because I couldn't.

	AA

	Oh yeah.  I've dug through the file pretty thoroughly but may
	have missed this.  If it's been covered already, steer me on ...

    Admittedly, I'm no expert on training dogs.  There are some people
    around DEC that are, though.
    
    However, I've heard (a lot lately) that the perfect age for taking pups
    from mother is 49 days.  It seems to be generally accepted that a
    dog younger than 49 days should not be worked at all.  At 49 days,
    the dog should undergo a lot of "socialization", which means lots of
    walks an introductions to people and new dogs.  
    
    There is a book that was recommended to me called GAME DOG by a guy
    named WOLTERS (correct spelling).  He has a whole series of books about
    dogs and I think this would be the most appropriate for your breed.
    There is a lot of overlap in the different books.  I would recommend
    picking a copy up as a guidline for training.  I will say that his
    timeframe seems a little aggressive.  He seems to be caught up in this
    thing about field trilaing dogs at 6 months or so.  
    
    The other thing is that different dogs seem to be different.  I have
    two dogs.  One of them was born retrieving and was very easy to train.
    The other was erratic at best for a year and then settled down.  This
    was frustrating for me, but she seems to be okay now.  There were times
    when I considered peppering her with shot.  Bear's suggestions was (if
    I recall), "Tritronics #5".
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    /brett

    
    
       "Hairdo by General Electric"?

    re: -2

    I've got the book _GAME_DOG_.  It's great!  As I have had time, I
    employed his techniques and they seem to work.  He has some really good
    drills.

    Without getting into a debate on "when to start", I wish I had started
    mine at 49 days like he suggests.  We're (especially me) un-learning
    bad habits.

    Anyway, glad you got a dog.  It would be helpful to have someone to go
    out with.  Often times you need someone else to help with the training.
    Are you up for it?

    Let me know (off-line if you'd like).

        +- Mark

	re .22/Mark ...

	Sure I'm up to it.  I think I will wait awhile before starting
	much with her ... to let her "solicialize" and get big enough
	to climb the stairs, etc.  She is pretty small still.

	The mother had weaned these guys at about 3 weeks, they've
	been eating (soft) solid food for over a week now tho'.
	Figured we'd go ahead and snag her.  She seems up to a
	new home ... getting lots of good attention.

	I'll get with you off-line next week and see what we can
	put together.  If nothing else, I'd like to see what
	you're doing with yours (you got one a coupla months back 
	didn't you?).
	
	AA

    
    
    
    	What is the general attitude on raising a dog as a pet/hunting dog?
    	I have an old mutt now(that's an affectionate use of "Mutt") that
    	I love, and she loves to hit the woods, but she is no hunting dog.
    	
    		I'm trying to talk my wife into another dog,  What
    	I want is mainly a "family" dog(barks at everything, big enough to
    	scare you, and house-trainable), but If I could get one that would
    	have a decent nose, and be gun trainable, that would be an extra
    	bonus. Also, I doubt that my boss,oops, wife would apreciate me
    	paying a lot for "another smelly dog".  (This from the woman that 
    	has "the smelly dog" sleep upstairs if I'm not home! )
    
    		Seriously, is there a breed that can be had for my fun
    	and the families enjoyment?  I'm not interested in long blood
    	lines, just healthy ones.  And what are the prices?  Even tho
    	the MSPCA won't sell to "hunters", do they ever get strong,
    	healthy animals from the hunter breeds?  
    
    		Thanks,
    
    		Chuck
    

    
    re .24
    
    You just described a lab.  Ask anyone who has one, or read any of the 
    books...
    
    Bet you won't come through the door at my house unless invited, an 85
    lb. lab, with curled lips can be quite intimidating...but on the other
    hand onces she's properly introduced...better like being kissed a LOT.
    From my standpoint you can't beat them in the field.  
    
    Kevin

    
    
    	Thanks, I was thinking about either a Lab, or a Golden Retriever.
    
    
    	Now, to start scouring the 'pounds.
    
    
    
    	How can I tell if this dog is healthy?  I have gotten dogs before
    	so I would go for a lively, clear-eyed pup, but I don't know about
    	the things like bone/joint problems that can become acute as the
    	dog gets older.  Is there any way to check out a pup for these
    	kind of ailments?
    
    		Thanks again,
    
    			Chuck
    

    Yea stick with a Lab.  If your wife is concerned about another dog
    I would go with a Lab rather then a Golden. Labs won't shed nearly
    as much as the Golden.  They also dry off alot faster and don't
    smell like a "dog" as much. 
      Try the Lab Rescue League for a purebred at real good prices.
    These folks "rescue" dogs that for one reason or another are not
    wanted.  A good portion of these dogs were originally purchased
    for hunting or trials but were given up because the owners can't
    find the time to train.  They make wonderful hunting dogs if given
    the oppurtunity.  Most have decent lines also.
    
    Jeff

    
    		I have two labs, male and female. I would try for
    	a female for hunting they don't distract as easy as the male.
        Males do this even after being fixed.
    		Both dogs are gental around kids and seem to enjoy
    	having them around. 
                I also have a suggestion, look in Vet offices for 
    	bulletin boards. I have seen where people will give up dogs
    	to good homes for free.
    
    
    					Gary

    
    
    	Thanks for all the replies.  Last night I heard about that
    	Rescue League.  My only reservation about getting an older dog
    	is the bad habits that they bring.  I got my dog when my sister
    	threatened the pound.  It took months of (firm but gentle)
    	dicipline to keep the dog from bolting and literally trashing
    	the neighborhood.  I won't even get into the carpets she chewed and
    	"pewed"
    
    
    		If I went for a dog from a kennel, what kind of price are
    	we talking?  I know it's more than I can pay, but I'd like to
    	know anyway.
    
    		Chuck
    

    Chuck,
    
      If you get a dog that was a wash out from the field trial circuit,
    chances are that it will already be better trained then 99% of the
    dogs in existance.  Before a dog can begin to compete it must know
    all the basic comands perfectly. 
    
    Jeff

    re .28
    
    	My yellow lab sheds like crazy!  A friend of mine that I
    	hunt with has a chocolate that doesn't shed except for
    	about 3-4 days in the spring.  I don't know how to explain
    	the difference.  Diet?
    
    Clay

	I've got Gun Dogs and another by Wolter on order from the
	library.  Coupla quick questions in the meantime ...

	I've been doing the "only way out of the short hall except
	through me" trick with a small rubber ball for a coupla
	minutes a coupla times a day with mixed results.

	When I toss the ball, she just goes for my hand as if she 
	doesn't relate the ball to the whole idea of it.  I haven't
	pushed it .... try a coupla times, give it a try and
	break it off.  

	She's young (5 weeks) but is catching on very readily to sit,
	come and (almost :-) stay.  Likes to learn, a natural it seems
	but is too much the puppy to really have any attention span.

	I tried something tonight to get her interest more in the ball 
	than in my hand.  I rubbed a small piece of raw beef on the ball
	and gave her a good smell.  Instant alert!

	It seemd to work as she did chase the ball and laid on and played 
	with it 2 out of 4 tries.  A start!

	I may have screwed up.  By putting beef smell on it and again
	for praising her for going after the ball (but she didn't bring
	it back, of course).  I also gave her a small piece of beef 
	when she finished each of the two chases.

	So, am I rushing her by trying any training at this stage and
	what about the beef smell and no retrieve?

	AA

    
    
    	Thanks for the last couple of notes!
    
    	You all brought back memories of a special friend I had.  Lucky
    	was brought home by my sis and bro for my mothers birthday 
    	(translation-bro had his license and they wanted to p-o Dad)
    	
    		He cried the first night home, so I went down (10 yrs. old)
    	and slept with him.  That was the start of a great friendship. We
    	went everywhere together after that, and as soon as he was house
    	trained-my room was his room.  He met my fiance when he was 10,
    	and ended up sleeping under our first-borns crib.  (you would be 
    	be lucky to get near that child stranger!)
    
    		I ended his life (at the vets)when a "skin condition" got so
    bad it was literally driving him crazy.  He was 12, I was 22, and lost my 
    last real best friend.
    
    		You all got me thinking about this because I used to 
    hit him Fly Balls(real hard) and He'd run and catch them either n the
    fly, or the first bounce.  (a much better fielder than me!)
    
    
    		Thaqnks,
    
    		CP
    

>   For me, I
>   would want to be developing enthusiasm. 	

	Absolutely!  We are having lots of no-pressure fun.

	One book came from the library - Game Dog.  I read it.  I
	went out and bought it (will use it for a while) and another
	Wolters' book - Family Dog, we have some kiddos.

	I got teary-eyed when I read the dedication in Game Dog .... 
	pretty sad.  {sniff}

	Looks like another coupla weeks before we should start anything
	much at all but Sloopy (kinda silly name, huh?) picks stuff
	up pretty good.  If she does, great! and gets lots of praise,
	if she doesn't, well - OK and we'll get to it pretty soon.

	Damn dog just won't get old fast enough.  Hard to tell who's
	gonna be more excitable.  :-)
	
	AA

	don't worry about the water, it's too cold for me ;-) and I've
	layed off the beef, etc. ... think you're right about the
	reward being a job well done.

	Was throwing a ball around in the house this evening, Sloop 
	fetching fine.  Ball went into the bathroom, bouncing around and
	into the john.

	Sloop's first water retreive.

	I'm so proud.  :-)

	AA

	This fine pup of mine is starting to give me fits.

	She (4.5 months old, lab/golden mix) will fetch till she drops
	... in the house. I couldn't realistically ask for more, in
	the house.  She's been fetching fine for a coupla months ...
	in the house.

	Outside (fields, etc. ... we live in an apartment and don't
	have a fenced backyard) she flatly refuses to pick up stuff (tennis 
	balls, dummies, kicked sticks, etc.).  Every once in a while she
	will grab something I toss but will then immediately drop it.

	I've thought that with all the distractions outside, that she
	just has too much on her mind but she does fine with other
	commands; sit, come, a little direction pointing, etc.

	I don't get it, I'm stymied and don't mind telling ya'll that
	I'm beginning to wonder WTF.  Thinkin' that as long as I shoot
	a bird in the house, she'll do just fine.

	Got any suggestions?

	Maybe get some pigeons or something to really spark her interest?

	AA 

Force break her!  There are several ways to this.  Many of the old trainers 
give the command FETCH and at the same time pinch an ear; when the dog 
opens his mouth to cry gently insert object.  Gently force the dog to hold 
the object for a second or so (increase time as you can), then command OUT.

The more modern way is from a table (and I can't remember the Guys name who 
introduced this and its too long to explain here.  Maybe someone else can 
help!  But anyway the newer method employs a string tied around the leg and 
through the toes.  By pulling on the string you apply presure to the toe 
nerves causing the dog to open his mouth to cry, then same as old method.  
If someone can provide the trainers name (Now I think it was Dalmar Smith). 
Get his book or video and you'll have no trouble.  If you want it done for 
you give me a call and I'll give you the number of a excellent PRO.

Thanks,
Bill

    	RE: .40 Force training.
    
    	I think the name being sought is Bodo Winterhelt. The name of the
    book being referred to is " The care and training of Pointing Dogs."
    This is published by NAVHDA and costs $10.00. 
    
    	If you want the address send me mail or locate your local NAVHDA
    chapter all of them have copies for sale.
    
    My recommendation would be to reward train first. FORCE TRAINING is a 
    one-way street. Done wrong you ruin your dog for good.
    
    Jack, multi-sorted-dog-club-member
    

    I thought Delmar was given credit for the Toe Laso and I disagree
    also with the warning about ruining your dog. If this is done
    correctly it really doen't take a great deal of force.
    
    I have seen dogs that were not retrievers at all made to retrieve
    with little or no time at all.
    
    Springer spaniels have strong natural retrieving instincts and
    it is a good practice to complete there training with a few lessons
    on the bench and force retrieving.
    
    It is true that your dog may too young ( I forget your dogs age )
    for this training but this is not stress ful at all on a adult
    dog if done correctly.
    
    Bear

    	Re:42 Alittle force.....
    
    	Hey, Bear what's the "if done correctly" S__T? 
    
    	All I was refering to is that "doing it Correctly" is not trivial.
    Once started you have to follow thru and complete. It is not a process
    a "rank amateur" should try. GET HELP!  
    
    I stand by my "you can ruin a dog" statement....Jack 

    "if done correctly" was not directed at anyone. Surely, not you Jack.
    
    
    There is a chance that the rank amature might not do it correctly
    by just reading a book and I am sure that different breeds require
    a different amount of force , however the pro does not really put
    undo stress on a dog. 
    
    Tenderness is a great way to train a dog and some have such desire
    that they would never need force training but for many when the chips
    are down and it is a difficult retrieve a dog that doesn't have strong
    desire or force training will just simply refuse.
    
    You may not want to go thru this because it isn't important to you.
    But from what I have seened it wasn't that difficult and it is
    probably incorrect for me to make judgements because there
    are surely a lot of breeds that I have not seen this training
    performed on however I would not dismiss any force training of any
    type because there are things that can be acomplished that " purhaps "
    can't be accomplished any other way.
    
    I would not consider myself a forceful dog trainer but I beleive
    it is neccessarry just as Jack's warning is also neccessary. It's up
    to you to find out all the facts before you proceed.
    
    Bear
                                                                   

Bear, you are right.  I've trained and campaigned a lot of dogs and all my 
dogs and those of every PRO I know FORCE break their dogs.  Bottom line you 
don't want your dog to be disqualified from a big stake because of a poor 
or non-retrieve.  It does'nt take a rocket scientist to apply Delmar's 
technique.  Enough said....



Thanks,
Bill

	Hmmmm ... I'm a rank amateur as far as dog training goes, but ....

	Is it maybe too soon to expect too much from this dog?  She's
	5 months old.

	There is absolutely _no_ problem with her fetching, holding stuff
	in her mouth (she'll walk around for quite a while with a dummy
	in her mouth when I tell her to), I've tossed doubles out and she'll
	bring 'em back one at a time, etc. ... I've no problem with this.

	She just won't do it outside so far and I haven't pushed it too
	much figuring she'll come along soon enough.

	I don't have the bucks to go to a pro (I assume they do charge a bit)
	and would hesitate myself to do any forced training.

	I would prefer to get her excitable over something outside.

	Do you think a live (or dead) bird would help?

	AA

	and really, thanks for the comments, etc.

	This dog isn't gonna be used for any trails, etc. ... just want 
	a decent field dog (she's a Lab) to bring the birds back ...
	nuthin' too fancy.

First your dog is not to young.  BTW for the owner a dog is never to young, 
for a PRO she is.  The PRO wants to work with a mature animal that has 
his/her attention on what is going on.

For my money, I bet that your pup has your attention inside, but is 
distracted by everything outside.  At five months, I would suggest five 
minutes of play followed by 10 minutes max of undisturbed lession.  That 
means no friends, no kids, no wife.

Make sure you have the dog under control.  Yard training may be in order if 
not already enforced.  That is sit, stay, heel and come.  Once these are 
learned force breaking can begin.  The old fashion way and probably the 
easiest for you is to command the dog to sit, place the dummy (small one) 
at the dogs mouth and apply pressure to the dogs ear until he/she begins to 
open his/her mouth.  As the dogs mouth opens give the command FETCH and 
GENTLY insert the dummy into the dogs mouth.  Any attempt by the dog to
spit out the dummy should be discouraged by gently holding the dogs mouth
shut while controlling the dummy in the dogs mouth.  CAUTION!  Do not at
first attempt to maintain this posture beyond 3 to 5 seconds, but
immediately give the command OUT and GENTLY allow the dog to give you the 
dummy.  Continue this until the puppy holds the dummy for longer and longer 
periods and reduce ear pressure until non is required.  Havin the pup go 
pick something up will be taught later.....stay tuned.



Thanks,
Bill

>For my money, I bet that your pup has your attention inside, but is 
>distracted by everything outside.

	Actually, there's more distractions inside than out.  We've
	got two kids (with all that entails), etc.  Outside is a 
	large field with nobody.

	She comes, etc. great outside so it doesn't appear that there's
	too much distraction for het to at least do this.

	And she _loves_ to fetch inside.

	It may sound stupid, but when doing all the fetching, etc. inside,
	I've been sitting down.  Outside, I stand ... natch.  Wonder
	if the different stance is somehow throwing the pup off.

	The two dummies are the smallish ones, maybe 2" diameter.

	AA

If she were picking up the dummy and not bringing it back stance might be 
envolved, but I believe you said she won't even pick up the dummy.  You may 
think that she is not distracted outside, but she is.....When you call her 
you distract her from what she is doing and that distraction only lasts for 
an instant.  Puppies have a very short span of attention, that is why a PRO 
usually refuses to train dogs under a year old.  Put a little pressure on 
her; make her take the dummy once and then see what her reaction is to
getting (from two or three feet) the dummy the second time. 

A question: Are you using the same objects outside as inside?



Thanks,
Bill

> A question: Are you using the same objects outside as inside?

	Yep.  Two puppy size dummeies, a sock stuffed with pheasant
	feathers on the skin and a ball - all things that she goes
	nuts over inside.  Tried each one of these at different times/
	days.

	Tried something yesterday when I got home.  Pulled all those
	pheasant feathers/skin out of the sock and covered one of the
	dummies with 'em, wrapped tightly with string so the feathers
	were still real visible, etc.

	Took the pup out and let her run awhile (always did this before
	doing any training - 5-10 minutes depending upon her mood -
	I'm really trying to read her and doing a fairly good job)
	anyway ... showed her this dummy, rubbed it against her face a 
	little to let her smell it good and tossed it out about 4-5
	feet and told her to pick it up.  She did and brought it back.

	A coupla times of this and I threw it a bit further with the
	fetch command.  Within just a coupla minutes, I could throw it
	as far as I could and she was going after it and bringing it back
	like she'd been doing it for weeks.

			       exponential :-)s!

	Thinking back to when we first started fetching, she was kinda
	particular as to what she'd pick up.  Figured it was just 'cause
	she was small and certain things would fit/feel better in her
	mouth.  But once I got the right thing (a tennis ball) and we'd
	fool with that a while, she would then do as good with anything I'd
	throw.  Tennis ball seemed to work best even though she couldn't 
	get it all in her mouth, the fuzzy cover gave her something to grab
	onto.  Wouldn't have much to do with the dummies until a week or so
	after she was fetching the balls.

	The stance (outside yesterday) didn't seem to matter.  I was wracking
	my brain trying to find what I was doing wrong or what could be
	done better ... positive learning experiences and all that, ya know.

	Looks like we may be on our way.	

	AA

    
    
    AA,
    
    If you dog likes to chase tennis balls and they are a little to big, 
    you might try a racquetball. My dog loves them, a bit smaller than a 
    tennis ball and more bounce in them.  He can keep himself amused 
    for hours by dropping it an watching it bounce.  If you want to try
    some and you are in the Nashua area I have some you could have.
    
    --Bob
    

>    you might try a racquetball.

	That was one of the things she first would pick up.  Didn't 
	mention it 'cause I was having brain fade and couldn't
	remember to spell it right.  ;-)  Her teeth wouldn't get
	caught up in the no-fuzzy outside ... was easier for her
	to drop.  Racquetballs _are_ good for the younguns.

	Sloop was fetching across a creek from the tall weeds yesterday
	like a pro (5 mo old pro ;-), jumpin the creek, climbing a bank
	and delivering well ... no drops, etc.

	Amazing.  Ya just gotta find out what will do the trick for your
	dog and reinforce that.  I have no doubts that after a few more
	days working with the feathered dummy, she'll come around to
	whatever I choose to throw.

	AA  :-)

    Howdy from Colorado Gents'
         Just thought I would let you know that my brother out in Oregon
    has a Golden retriver that has worn her front teeth down to nubbins
    by constantly chewing on the nylon cover surrounding the tennis ball.
    I have found that soft rubber balls really are a hit with my Choc. lab
                                          -Tim-

    
    Can someone please list the number for the Sporting Dogs Specialties
    catalogue?  
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mark.

    Mark,
    	I'll try to find  Sporting Dogs Specialties number tonight.
    
    	In the meantime; R C Steele number is 800-872-3773
    			 GADCO                800-544-0944
    
     Sporting Dogs Specialties is the retail supply of R C Steele.
     Prices are considerably less thru R C Steele BUT you must have
     a minimum order of $50 for R C Steele. 
    
     GADCO has great prices, they are located in Maine, and they 
     do not require a $50 minimum (but charge a minimal S/H fee).
    
     If you have a specific item(s) you want to order, I can check 
     the prices for you and give you the R C Steele and GADCO price.
    
    dave         264-0773