Conference vicki::boats

Sounds like a cracked head/block. I would lean toward the head, as it shows up
after sitting. The water jacket in the head could be letting water into the oil 
on the top end, which drains into the crankcase after you shut it off.

Repairing/replacing the head on a 350 Chevy isn't fun, but is by no means un-
doable. If the head is in fairly good shape, a shop can weld the crack and
refinish the face. Depending on how the valves look, you might do a valve job on
both while it's torn down. It's a labor $$$ intensive job, but you can do a lot
of dissembly/assembly yourself.

...Larry

    
    Well, there are only 2 ways I know that water can get into the oil.
    
    From Inside the engine and from outside the engine!
    
    	While that may sound simplistic, I think it's the place to start.
    
    	Outside:
    
    		Since you mentioned that it's the next day that water
    	shows up in the oil. Are you sure that the bilge isn't filling
    	with water and somehow getting into the engine? Is the bilge
    	dry the "next day"? 
    
    	Inside:
    
    		Short of a cracked block (hopefully not) then really
    	the only place that water and oil can mix is in the heads, indicating
        a blown head gasket or cracked heads.
    
    
    	Cerainly address this problem immediatly as water DOESN'T compress
    at all!
    
    Rick

I missed the number of my original note. It wasn't 631, it was 820

...Larry

	Is the boat a salt water boat ?  Does the Volvo application have
risers or elbos on the exhaust ?  Does the application have a heat exchanger ?
or is the engine entirely raw water cooled ?  If there is a heat exchanger,
is it just the enging block which is fresh water cooled or also the exhaust
manifolds ?
	In a salt water boat it could be something as simple as the risers
or exhaust manifolds rotting and allowing water back into the exhaust ports,
and after time down the cylinder walls and into the oil.  In salt water
applications, the rear (lowest because of engine mounting angle) cylinders
usually show signs of water contamination by salt or rust on sparkplug 
electrodes after having set with this condition durring the week.
	Also any other information on what happened prior to and durring
the hours run time, like hard starting, overheating, dieseling on shutdown,
etc., may prove helpfull in diagnosing the problem short of engine teardown.

	Rick

re .0

	I'd be inclined to start stripping it.  As parts come off it 
should be pretty obvious whats wrong;  unless there are some severely 
seized nuts and bolts you could be down to the bare block in an hour 
or so - with answers.   Until it comes apart everything is 
speculation, unless you know its detailed history - even then.....

	R

    Thanks for the rapid replies.............brief history:
    I just purchased the boat, took it home and let it sit two weeks
    and found oil/water just before taking the boat to the lake.  Changed
    the oil and found water the next day.  It now is sitting at the
    dealer.&%$(*$$$$$$$$).
    
    re: 833.2 	The bildge is dry.
    
    re: 833.4	Freshwater ONLY, I believe elbows on the exhaust and
    		raw water cooled.
    

re                      <<< Note 833.6 by CRANEE::DUNCAN_RI >>>
>                               -< more details >-

>    the oil and found water the next day.  It now is sitting at the
>    dealer.&%$(*$$$$$$$$).

	A haH !   The dealer you bought it from ?

	If yes,	Demand freebie repairs - don't settle for half & half 
or parts but not labor, go for 100% of both.

	else, grab it back and shove it at whoever sold it to you,
		Demand freebie repairs from them, or ALL your money back.  
Again, go for it all, this is too soon after purchase for you to pick 
up ANY of the tab.


	If the deal was too good to be true - it was probably too good 
to be true.  In which case, start stripping it down for real answers.

	Reg

    Whatever you do, don't run it until you determine the source of the
    water.  Water entering the cylinder from a leaking head gasket while
    running can raise the compression in that  cyclinder to the point that
    the piston rod will let go (ie: new engine time).  Just doing a valve
    job and having the heads planed is not too bad.  Replacing the whole
    engine would be mega bucks!!   A sign of a leaking head gasket (while
    running) is a cloud of steam coming out of your exhaust when you first
    start it up (Not to be confused with a bluish cloud of smoke which may
    be caused by bad valve guides leaking oil).  Do you remember anything
    funny coming from the exhaust when you started it up?
    
    A quick way to determine if your exhaust manifolds are rusted out
    inside would be to remove the exhaust risers (4 bolts each) and take a
    look inside with a flashlight.  Your exhaust manifolds are
    water-jacketed.  They may have rusted thru but I would tend to doubt it
    if it has only been in fresh water.  Mine are 25 years old and show no
    signs of going bad.
    Keep us posted and good luck with the dealer.
    Wayne

    If the engine has a ENGINE oil cooler.  Don't get confused with the 
    power steering cooler.  If the engine does not have a remote oil filter
    then you do not have an engine oil cooler. 
    Check that.  When running the oil pressure would keep the oil in 
    the cooler but when you stop the water pressure can force the 
    water into the oil lines. 
    
    Removing and replacing the heads is not a big job.  Just takes time.
    
    I would go after the seller on this one.
    
    Good luck
    
    Ken C
     

    
    I would be concerned with how many hours the boat was run in this 
    condition before you bought it. 
    
    I would have the seller (if at all possible) pay for all repairs
    and have a thorough engine check or I would strongly consider
    returning the boat.
    
    What is that ol saying:  I hole in the water you throw money into :-(
    
    Doug. 

    
    	If the boat was bought from a private party, it maybe difficult
    	to have the previous owner pickup the repair bills, since most 
    	private sales are "sold as is". In the case if it was bought from
    	a dealer, then there maybe some recourse because of state laws
    	and so on.
    
    	Good luck
    
    	my .02
    
    	Mike	

    re: .11 The good old days have changed slightly. My experience is 
    with auto's but the same may aply to boats. I was selling my wifes
    car, to get a handle on the real value i inquired with a few dealers.
    
    One thing i did find out, it was really worth about $1200, however
    if i were to sell it for that price i would be subject to making
    some warranties. The warranties vary according to the price range.
    In this case it would hav been for 30 days. However sales below
    $700 no warranties apply.
    
    If this was a private sale i'd be inclined to call the attn'y generals
    office in Boston and inquire.
    
    
    JIm.

    Thanks for all of the quick responses.  I just picked up the boat
    from the dealer today and they indicated it was fixed and NO charge.
    When I asked them about WHAT was done, I received a very vague answer.
    The manifolds were removed with NO problem found.  The repairman
    commented that someone may have put water into the engine as a
    prank/vandalism.  I asked about the new water after he had began
    troubleshooting and he indicated maybe it was residual from the
    earlier "drowning".
    
    BOTTOM LINE:  I ain't got much confidence that my problem is fixed!

re                     <<< Note 833.14 by CRANEE::DUNCAN_RI >>>
>                                 -< FIXED???? >-
    
>    BOTTOM LINE:  I ain't got much confidence that my problem is fixed!


	It might not be fixed in the mechanical/technical sense, but 
you've probably made a great stride toward getting it fixed by 
establishing the problem history with the dealer.  You will be able to 
point back and say,  "You accepted it as your problem and said you had 
fixed it".  You'll probably get it totally fixed at the dealers 
expense  - -  eventually.

	Reg

    I guess your problem is now history, but just a note for the record...
    
    I had EXACTLY the same symptoms on a 350 Chevy Mercruser.  The fix was
    a new gasget on one of the exhaust elbow risers.  Sounds easy......
    but......  I pulled the engine before I realized what the problem was. 
    It ended up as being not very expensive, but a painful lesson.
                                                   

    Moved by moderator...
    
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Note 985.0                  H2O IN OIL AND CYLINDERS                     1 reply
EBBV03::BROUILLETTE "MTSND"                          39 lines  26-MAY-1992 23:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a 72 merc 140 I/O with water in the oil and cylinders.
My theory is the exhaust water jacket is leaking.  How can I tell?  If I
take it off can I see all areas?  Can it be magnefluxed?

I have been changing the oil and filter about every 3 - 4 hours of use for
the last two years.  The boat yard that the boat came from two years ago
didn't remove one of the drain plugs the previous year (out of business now).
Last summer the starter wouldn't turn the engine one day.  From my experience
buying a 914 with a "bad starter" and finding out the starter was okay but
the engine was seized, I realized the starter could be okay, but water in
the cylinders in addition to the oil.  I pulled the plugs and turned the key.
One cylinder shot a stream of water in an arc about 25 feet high and 50 feet
across.  Water came out of some other cylinders also.  I assume water could
have been getting in for the two summers.

When I put the boat up last fall, I checked the compression and it was great.
Therefore, I don't believe the head gasket if letting the water into the
cylinders (it could be blown between the water and oil).

I went to Ron's in Swanton Saturday to get an exhaust bellows for the I/O
thinking that water could get to the exhaust valves from the mostly non
existent current bellows.  I thought I had read something in this notes file
about that happening.  The guy there said that a bad bellows wouldn't
put water into the engine.  He also didn't know how to detect a leak in
the water jacket.  If it were a hair-line crack it may not open up until
hot.

The only other piece of information, which may not be related, is that the
engine wouldn't idle at low rpm's the last month of the season.  When I stored
it last fall, I revved it up with the water removed before pulling the plugs
and spraying in wd40.  When I revved it up, I noticed that it would idle okay
if I closed the choke a little.  It acted like it had a vacuum leak and was
running lean.

I am thinking about putting in a car exhaust manifold and a radiator with
an electic fan if the exhaust water jacket is bad (unless I can pick up a
used one cheap).

Any ideas?

    Moved by moderator...
    
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Note 985.1                  H2O IN OIL AND CYLINDERS                      1 of 1
EPTVAX::TURBAYNE                                     14 lines  27-MAY-1992 07:38
                        -< I'd look at the head first >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Could be many things......but a cracked head in the area of the
    valves/valve stems could be the problem.....Compression can show good
    when the valves are obvisously closed for the test. When the engine
    runs for a while then shut down, the crack in the head will be expanded
    due to temperature and the water being hot/onder pressure can be forced
    into the cyclinder. As well as running into the cylinder if the crank
    is in the right spot it will put water in the rocker area of the head
    which will end up in the oil/oil pan.....Given that the boat yard
    forgot to remove a plug you might have had a winter freeze up of some 
    remaining H2O cracking the head.....
    
    Is the problem with just one cylinder????
    
    my $.02 worth, Steve

    
       A hairline crack will not cause the motor to not idle (by itself),
    what the crack allows into the cumbustion chamber *may*. You should
    definitely not discount that you may have a blown head gasket. A blown
    head gasket could definitely cause ALL of the symptoms that you are
    seeing.
    
    					Kenny

    I would not put the radiator/fan set up you mentioned. YOu won't have
    enough airflow in the restricted space to get rid of all the heat from
    the radfiator. You would be better off picking up an OSCO or BARR
    manifold and/or exhaust elbow from some place like freeport Marine or
    Ward Marine. 
    
     I have a freind who has the 120 mercruiser- whenever the exhaust elbow
    would fail he experienced the symptoms you described. Freeport has
    exact BARR replacement exahust elbows for the 120 Mercruiser for under
    $100.
    
     Dick
    

    Try a compression test first.  It will tell yoy if there are any
    compression leaks.  The other thing to try is pressurizing each
    cylinder.  Auto parts stores have a fitting that fits into the spark
    plug hole for this.  With each cylinder pressurize and the engine
    cooling system filled with water look for bubbles.  
    
    Is this merc the one with the AL block and the cast iron head?  
    If so with out fresh water cooling  20 years is very good.
    
    
    Ken C