Conference vicki::boats

    
    Wayne,
    
    	This job certainly sounds familiar! I had to perform it
    on a 1964 Correct Craft. I bought a rebuild Velvet Drive from
    Marine Machinery in Providence, RI to replace my unserviceable
    Eaton reverse gear. Are you sitting down? 3 years ago it was
    950 clams.
    
    	Another source may be Marine Gear in Rowley, Ma... Their
    phone is ?617?-948-7901.
    
    	Just a couple of pointers that may ease your installation.
    
    		1) If you don't have adjustable motor mounts, buy them
    			along with the reverse gear.
    		2) The Velvet Drive is longer than the Eaton so one
    			of two things must happen.
    
    			a) The prop shaft must be shortened
    
    			b) The engine must move ahead an inch or two.
    
    			I opted for choice b, it was rather easy since
    			the rear of the engine was suspended anyway with
    			the old Eaton already out of the boat. 
    
    
    	Good luck with the repair..........
    
    Rick

    It's worth a phone call to Boyd Jackson at Marine Gear and Supply to
    find out what your options are. They're located on Rt 1A in Rowly and
    as Rick said, can be reached at 948-7901.  Two years ago, my 1:1 Borg-
    Warner Rebuild cost around 360 bucks, (paid for by my engine warrentee
    :^), But turnaround and service was excellent.
    Good luck,
    Doug

    
    Doug,
    
    	I talked to both the place in Rowley and the one in Providence
    when I had to change from Eaton to Borg-Warner and both had the
    same story. "No parts available to rebuild the Eaton".......
    
    	Boy, Wayne you sure could save some bucks if you could find a
    junk Velvet Drive somewhere for low $$ and have it rebuilt...
    I wonder what the odds are of that.....hmmmmmm
    
    Rick
    

    Rick, I talked to a guy at "Performance Boats" in Hooksett, N.H.
    They specialize in inboards/performance boats.  He has a Velvet
    drive needing a rebuild job which he's willing to sell for $200.
    Are all Velvet drives (1:1) the same or do I need to make sure the
    unit will fit my engine?  I called Warner Gear in Muncie, Indiana.
    They sent me alot of material (owner's manuals, application manuals,
    etc.)  They recommended that when I was ready to do the conversion
    (probably this winter), that I deal with the place in Rowley for
    the parts I would need.  I believe that my current bellhousing will
    work but I will need a new flywheel dampner and rear mounts.  They
    are listed in the manuals that Warner Gear sent me.  Does that
    agree with what you had to change?  Does Rowley rebuild transmissions
    or just sell them?  Does $200 sound right for a unit in need of
    rebuild.  I won't be able to move the engine forward because it
    already touches the back of the front seat.  If the new tranny is
    that much longer than the Eaton, I'll have to take the shaft back
    to H + H Prop. and have them shorten it (I had them make it last
    year when they balanced the propeller).  It shouldn't be a big deal
    for them to shorten it since they would only need to cut off the
    end and extend the key-way.  They do great work down there at a
    good price. 
    Thanks for the help on this.  This is my first boat and I'm trying
    to restore it to as close to original condition as possible yet
    still have it realiable enough to use for waterskiing.  When you
    walk into a marina and ask if they have parts for a 25 year mahogany
    ski boat they look at you kinda funny.  I've managed so far to find
    different sources who rebuild some of the obsolete stuff but the
    transmission has me stumped.  I even found a guy out in Michigan
    who was the service manager at the original Century factory back
    in the 50's and 60's.  When the first "Century" company went
    bankrupt (1968 or so?) they bought up all the old parts in stock
    plus the molds do reproduce everything.  I have been able to by
    many things from them brand new for cheaper than I've seen used.
    I bought a brand new mooring cover from them last year for $150
    less than a custom cover place quoted me.  The cover was made in
    1967 and sat in the box in the warehouse for 23 years.  Fit
    perfect!  
    Thanks, Wayne
    

    
    Wayne,
    
    	The "in need of rebuild" tranny sounds like a good idea.
    Marine Gear in Rowley does do rebuilds and I'd check with them
    before buying it for a worst case price, just in case Doug's
    rebuild wasn't worst case.
    
    	I'd also bargain with Performance Boats on the Borg-Warner.
    What would the look on their face be with $125 cash on the table?
    
    	As far as I know all the (1:1) Velvet Drives are the same. I 
    don't remember having to do anything with the flywheel. Definately,
    new rear mounts will be required and new adjustable front mounts
    make aligning the new power much easier. Sounds like a trip to H&H
    will be in order for the prop shaft.
    
    	I did forget new shift cables for the B-W. While I was in there,
    I replaced my foot throttle with a Morse hand throttle.
    
    	Sounds like a beautiful boat, when do I get to see it? :-)
    
    Rick
    
    	BTW: My Eaton started taking it's sweet time about actually
    engaging after I shifted it, then shortly thereafter it died
    completely. While I was skiing behind "Daze" no less......
    

    Rick, I took some measurements yesterday.  It looks like the
    Borg-Warner is about 3 inches longer than the Eaton.  Does 
    that sound about right to you?  The guy with the tranny in need
    of rebuild said that he can do the needed shortening of the
    shaft without any problems.  I may try to move the engine forward
    some by removing the tachometer drive which is mounted to the front
    of the crankshaft.  The existing mechanical-drive doesn't work
    anyways and I doubt that I can locate the replacement drive cable
    needed so I may change over to an electronic tach. (Maybe even get
    rid of the original Mallory single point distributor in favor of
    something more modern like an MSD electronic.)  
    I'm going to try and get up to see the tranny tomorrow.  The guy
    at Performance Boats who has the tranny said that if I find out
    that it is going to be too expensive to rebuild at Marine Gear he'll
    give me my money back.  Sounds safe to me.  Marine gear charges
    $50 to disassemble a tranny and give you a repair estimate so the
    most I can lose is $50.  
    Wayne 

    
    Wayne,
    
    	Sounds like you're making good progress. I would have guessed
    2 inches, but it could well have been 3. Unlike yourself, I had
    plenty of room to move the engine, I just had to move the motor
    cover with it.
    
    Rick

    Rick, the guy said that he would take $150 for the tranny and he'll
    give me my money back if it's gonna cost too much to rebuild.  I
    looked at it today.  It's out of a 1970 Correct Craft.  The guy
    who had the boat said that the tranny was "slipping".  Any idea
    what can slip in a tranny?  I'm going to pick it up next week and
    run it down to Rowley.  It should be worth $50 to have them look
    at it and give me an estimate.  It didn't look in bad shape at all.
    I'll send you some pictures of my boat when I remember.
    Thanks for all the advise.
    Wayne

re .8:

My transmission has an internal clutch used to select either forward or 
reverse. When worn, I assume that the transmission would 'slip'.

Each time my tranny has begun to slip it was due to a low fluid level.  But, I
could always trace the loss of fluid to my removing of a line to the oil cooler
and not remembering to refill the reservoir.

...Roger...

    Rick, when you swapped to the Warner Velvet drive, you didn't have
    to change props from a left hand to a right hand (or the other way
    around) did you?  When I read note 703.3 regarding auto to boat
    engine conversions, I start to wonder if the Warner velvet drive
    reverses the direction of rotation while the Eaton tranny I have
    is called "Direct Drive Model D".  I'm pretty sure my engine rotates
    in the oposite direction from a normal car engine (I'm going to
    check it tonight).  This was something unusual that Interceptor
    may have done back in the mid-sixties.  My friend's 1960 Chris-Craft
    ski boat has a Chevy engine in it which does turn in a normal 
    direction.  Maybe the Velvet drive tranny could care less which
    way it turns as long as it is "indexed" correctly.  I don't want
    to get surprised when I get this tranny rebuilt that I need to get
    a different prop ($$$) so the boat will go forward when it's supposed
    to.
    Thanks, Wayne

    
    Wayne,
    
    	Nope, the BW tranny made no difference in the rotation of
    the prop. The only caution I was given was to have the plate
    which surrounds the tranny input shaft positioned correctly for
    the pump to operate RH or LH whichever the engine is....
    
    Rick

    Rick, thanks for all the help.  What you tell me agrees with what
    the Warner manuals say about "indexing" the pump for engine rotation.
    I picked the tranny up the other day ($150). I can return it if
    it's not rebuildable.  I'll be bringing it to Marine Gear for a
    look-see to determine what it will cost to rebuild.  I'm building
    a house also so the boat won't see water this summer but I'll
    have a nice winter project (and a heated garage) to work in.
    Wayne

    Anyone ever taken a Warner Velvet drive apart and rebuilt it?  Time
    is more available than money right now and I need to rebuild the
    drive that I bought.  The person I bought it from said that it was
    "slipping" so they threw in a new one.  Sounds like worn disks to 
    me but I've never seen inside one before.  Does anyone know if a repair
    manual (like Chilton's for cars) is available?
    Thanks, Wayne

re                     <<< Note 690.14 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>
>                          -< Rebuild a Warner drive? >-

>    Anyone ever taken a Warner Velvet drive apart and rebuilt it?  Time

	I havn't (yet)  - -  'though its the kind of thing I could get 
into  ....gimme a coupla days to check with someone I know who  "does 
trannies"  and has a mild interest in boats.  He might have done one 
or two, I might be able to use his shop if things get quiet this 
winter.  Shop manuals for Warner,,,,  I'll check.

	Reg

    Reg, I called Marine Gear yesterday and they have 1 repair manual (71
    series) left which they are holding for me ($15.00).  I'll probably
    still take the tranny to them for evaluation.  For $50.00 they will
    take it apart and tell me what is wrong with it and then sell me the
    parts to fix it.  He said the only tricky part is the "clutch pack"
    which maybe I'll pay them to assemble then I'll put the tranny back
    together.  The only other tranny I ever took apart was an old Jeep
    tranny.   I had no manual and when the ball bearings started falling
    out and rolling across the garage floor, that's when I packed the
    thing up and took it to the Jeep repair shop.  I can't believe that
    the Warner can be as complicated.
    Let me know what your friend says.
    Thanks, Wayne

    Velvet Drives are simple to rebuild. Last year when I repowered my
    boat, I was going to replace the Velvet Drives. My mechanic said - "No
    Way" Velvet Drives are bullet proof. It only takes one and a half hours
    of labor to rebuild a Velvet Drive. The parts will cost more than the
    labor.
    
    

    Steve, is that assuming one has some experience?  Are there any special
    tools required?  I'm sending for the rebuild manual.  If it seems 
    straight forward, I'm going to go for.  The worst that can happen is I
    end up taking it to Marine Gear in a basket.
    If anyone needs to borrow the manual, let me know.
    Wayne

    I dropped the Warner Velvet Drive that I bought for $150 off at Marine
    Gear Tuesday.  Boyd Jackson seems to be so honest that it almost scares
    you.  While I was there, someone called looking for a rebuilt tranny.
    Boyd told him that he had one on the shelf for $3000 (this must be a
    BIG tranny) but that he could rebuild the guys existing tranny for alot
    less in just a couple of days.  How many people would turn away a $3000
    sale like that?
    Anyways, they called me at 12:00 the next day to tell me that they had
    taken apart my tranny for evaluation.  The clutches were "welded"
    together from slipping and there was some water in it.  That didn't
    sound to good to me until he said that they could totally rebuild it
    for $273.  That sounded real good to me.  I said to go ahead with the
    rebuild. He said it would be ready that afternoon.  He also recommended
    that since I would be using the boat for skiing (someday) that he
    should install heavier springs (or something like that) to make sure
    that the clutches really engage when in drive.  He said that skiing
    really takes a toll on the clutches.
    Next step is to determine what new mounts, damper, shift linkage,
    cooler hoses I'm going to need.  Also, N.H. laws say that I have to
    install mufflers or I won't meet the 89 DB level required.  
    Wayne

    I took the day off yesterday and pulled the Eaton tranny and
    bellhousing out so that I could determine if the existing
    damper would mate-up with the Warner 26 spline shaft.  Well
    there was no damper and the Eaton had a 12 spline input shaft.
    The flywheel looks like it was made specifically for this
    application and I'm probably now going to have to replace the
    flywheel and bellhousing and still add the damper ($$$$$).
    Rick, I'm not sure why you didn't run into the same problems.
    Was your engine a 289 Ford made by Interceptor or some other
    marine engine conversion company?  I would think that you
    would have remembered having to add a damper, flywheel, or
    bellhousing cause it sure blows the budget for the year.
    Even if you changed to an older Warner with the ten spline
    shaft, it wouldn't have been compatible with the Eaton
    12 spline shaft.
    Roger, last chance for you to repower with a 351 PCM and sell
    me your whole 289/Warner combo.  I'll even help you with the 
    installation.
    On another note, I took the oil cooler off the engine while I
    was in there.  Can a auto radiator shop pressure test it or is
    there some way I can do it myself?
    Thanks, Wayne

    
    
    re:.20
    
    OSCO carries a line of dampers for use in conversions that boly up to 
    the factory flywheel. If you need the whole rig- I would be tempted to
    head for the junkyard(s), get a flywhell from a standard transmission
    289 (I also beleive a 302 /351 will fit also, but not sure), bolt on
    the damper and you should be in business.
    
    OSCO carries a line of after market manifolds and converion kits
    Most amrine engines use the flywheel fom the standard transmission
    and bolt on a damper. I'm not familiar with your set up, but I wouldn't
    be surprised if it was standard FORD for the Flywheel. Take it off and
    take it to you local Ford dealer.
    
     My OMC Flywheel and ring gear are standard GM/Chevvy truck.
    
    
    

    I thought that I would find a factory flywheel inside the bellhousing
    but it looks like Dearborn Machine (makers of Interceptor and Eaton)
    decided in all their wisdom to build their own flywheel with the
    splined opening for the tranny shaft built right in instead of having
    to have a separate damper.  With the need for a different flywheel
    comes the possibiltiy of a different bellhousing or the starter teeth
    may not mesh with the flywheel.  I have the Osco Cat.  They do list
    my bellhousing ($231).  I will call them.  I'm sure that their
    bellhousing would be designed around a standard Ford flywheel.  I still
    hope to find something used before I have to spend that kind of money!
    Marine Gear said to bring in the existing flywheel to see if they could
    find a damper that might fit if some holes were machined into it.
    Thanks for the advise.
    Wayne

Repower to a 351?  Neat idea, but, nah!  The rest of the boat is already in
pieces, so I'd rather not muck with the engine/tranny combo.  I've already gone
through the engine/tranny rebuild process.  Once is more than enough, thank you.
:-)  The current project is motor mount replacement, and along with that comes
the need to get new tranny mount brackets (since the new mounts will raise the
tranny end about 4" or so).  Looks like Osco has what I need.  Will also be
checking around some local shops.  In any case, someone's getting a piece of my
tax return!

...Roger...

    Roger, as it turns out, once I removed the flywheel from the engine I
    found a Ford imprint on the back side and carefull measurement of the
    drilled and tapped holes in the flywheel has turned up three holes that
    will match up with one of the dampers that Warner offers.  The only
    things left to do now are:  shorten the prop shaft about 3 inches
    (someone out there have a prop puller they want to rent out for a case
    of your favorite beverage?), install the new damper, and determine what
    type of rear tranny mounts I can use.  I bought Osco's 4 inch drop
    tranny feet for about $20 each at Marine Gear.  They are VERY heavy
    duty.  They'll probably outlast the boat.  If I still have about 1.5
    inches left above the stringer, I can use the Osco adjustable mounts, 
    if less, I will have to use the wedge plates that Marine Gear has. They
    only allow for .25 inches of adjustment.  You slide them in or out
    around the lag bolt until the prop shaft lines up per the alignment
    procedure I gave you.  The problem is that you will have to use L-angle
    iron on top of the stringer to get within .25 inches.  I envy you
    having a place to work with a chain-fall to hold up the engine.  I am
    doing this without disconnecting the front engine mounts as I have no
    way to pick up the entire engine.  I made a lifting device which sets
    on the floor on each side of the engine.  The legs are 4 x 6's 21
    inches tall with a 3 foot length of 6 inch wide channel iron connecting
    them.  I removed the front engine lifting ring and attached it to the
    head opposite where the rear engine lifting hook is.  I then put two
    heavy duty 1/2 inch eyelets down thru the channel iron so that they
    were right above the lifting rings on the rear of the engine.  I
    connected them with some tow hooks.  By turning the nuts on the
    eyelets, I can raise or lower the back of the engine/tranny to do the
    rough alignment so I can determine what tranny mounts will fit. If you
    have the need to borrow this rig, I should be done in a couple of
    weeks.
    Wayne  

Yeah Wayne, the setup I have in RI is pretty nice, although I'd much rather be
using it to lift the boat off the trailer to put a coat of wax on the bottom
than lifting the engine in/out of the boat!  :-)  Thanks for the offer to use
your setup, but my plan right now is to acquire all the parts I need then drag
the boat to RI and do all the mechanical stuff there.  Hopefully, I'll be all
back together in a couple of weeks also.

...Roger...

    Wayne,

    	I could have sworn the Velvet-drive just bolted into/onto
    the Interceptor 289 in my Correct Craft, but the mind *is* the
    first thing to go! If I think of it next week, I'll call Marine
    Machinery in Providence where I bought my reverse gear and try
    to find an explanation of the difference you are seeing.

    	I have a prop puller which you are more than welcome to.
    (boy, I should rent it out, huh? :-) ).... Do your travels bring you
    near Maynard or Lowell? I've forgotten where your boat is located...
    Maybe, I'd come by your place and I'd get a peek at your Century
    at the same time....
    
    Rick

    Hi, Rick.  Things are starting to fall in place.  I'm almost at the
    point of starting to put things back together.  The local rental shop
    has pullers that they rent for $5 per day.  Thanks for the offer.
    BTW, the boat is in Brookline, NH.  I work in Salem, NH.  If I can't
    get a puller that will fit, I'll give you a buzz.  Is your prop a
    3 or 4 blade?  If 4, I couldn't use it.  Also, if you have a gear
    reduction tranny with one of those huge props, the puller may be too
    big.  
    Wayne

    Well, I'm ready to fire her up, maybe this weekend in the yard.  I'm
    having some trouble figuring out what type of tranny fluid is correct.
    The manuals that I got from Borg-Warner calls for type H, Dextron I
    but when I called Marine Gear (rebuilders of the tranny) the recommended
    Type F, Dextron II.  What do you other Warner Velvet Drive owners use?
    Also, how do I calculate how much to put in when the cooler lines are
    still empty?
    Thanks, Wayne

    All the new Velvet Drives use Dextron II.  I forget the capacity (don't
    have the book with me), but it's only a couple/few pints.  
    A turkey baster works well for adjusting the volume (+/-) of fluid.
    Just make sure you don't overfill it...
    
    Doug

    Thanks, Doug.  The manual calls for 2 quarts plus the amount needed to
    fill the cooling system which has to be determined when running (??).
    Thanks for the tip on the turkey baster.  I bet the turkey comes out
    nice and juicy, too!  I'll go with the Dextron II.
    Thanks, Wayne

    Well, it's been almost two years since I first posted this note looking
    for advise on replacing my original obsolete tranny with a Warner.  As
    of yesterday, "Sweet Fifteen" is touching water, albeit still sitting
    on her trailer, at Lake Potanipo in Brookline, NH.  I found a guy in
    town who is going to let me keep it at his dock for $75 per month. 
    Sounds like alot for such a small lake but I want the boat to swell up
    and stay that way.  He has a nice beach area that I launched at
    avoiding the public launch which looks like a rocket attack hit it.
    (Actually, the town is purposely not fixing the ramp to discourage
    large, out of town boats from showing up).  I left the boat strapped to
    the trailer in enough water to keep it wet inside and out.  The trailer
    being under it will prevent it from sinking too deep as I left the
    bilge pump turned off.  It should be swelled up enough in 3 or 4 days
    to remove the trailer and put on the pump.
    Many thanks to all you folks who offered advise thru all this.  If
    anyone get's in a similar situation, send me a message.  I have
    accumulated all of the Warner Velvet drive rebuild and installation
    manuals plus tools needed to do the installation plus a wealth of
    knowleadge from all the mistakes that I made.  
    Wayne

	Just spoke to Boyd Jackson at Marine Gear and Supply in Rowley, Ma.
His phone number is 508-948-7901.  Last night my Velvet Drive seemed to
exhibit it's usual marbles-rolling-around-inside-when-thrown-into-reverse
sound a little louder than normal. It also may have been cavitating or
slipping at the same time but I'm not sure.

	As Wayne mentioned earlier, Boyd appears to be so honest that
it *is* scary. He immediately says, he doesn't think it's the tranny,
but that it's normal backlash and maybe the motor isn't running as smooth
as it should. I will need to do some further checking....

	But, the price of a Velvet Drive that's direct drive rebuild
appears to be about the same as when Doug had one done. It's $225.00
plus parts.... Their turnaround time is about 1 week.

Rick

  re .32    

    Rick, 
    
}	As Wayne mentioned earlier, Boyd appears to be so honest that
}it *is* scary. He immediately says, he doesn't think it's the tranny,
}but that it's normal backlash and maybe the motor isn't running as smooth
}as it should. I will need to do some further checking....
    
    Boyd may be right. It may not be the tranny, but I doubt it's
    *normal* backlash either. It could just be a loose coupling where the
    tranny output shaft connects to the prop shaft. If that's the case
    it's a quick fix, you could even do it on the river! I wouldn't rule it
    out !!
    
    ~jeff      many :^)

    
>    Boyd may be right. It may not be the tranny, but I doubt it's
>    *normal* backlash either. It could just be a loose coupling where the
>    tranny output shaft connects to the prop shaft. If that's the case
>    it's a quick fix, you could even do it on the river! I wouldn't rule it
>    out !!
>    
>    ~jeff      many :^)

	Gee, Jeff! It was the coupling, how'd you know that? I believe
I've attempted to teach myself this lesson before... "Tighten EVERYTHING
for recommisioning!"..... but apparently I'm still not listening...

Rick

ps. I've got your ski, and I'm not scared to use it!

}Rick
}
}ps. I've got your ski, and I'm not scared to use it!
    
    PLEASE ! Go ahead !! Do It !!! I've seen the way you've trained your ski
    and mine could only benefit.
    
    ~jeff
    
    5:30 this morning, late compared to Sat & Sun