Conference vaxcat::friends

    I couldn't watch it, but I saw it advertised & found it quite
    upsetting... they were trying to ban it from going out...
    
    Paula

    
    
    
    I had a neighbour in Canada that went to China a brought back a baby
    girl. Alot of red tape but she was just so beautiful.
    It's a shame that cultures put so little value on any life let alone
    female.
    
    Chris
    

    I agree with the last three.
    
    It's a total disgrace and something must be done.
    
    The "reasons" behind the dying rooms are as follows.
    
    Due to the massive population explosion in China, families in China (in
    certain areas) are only allowed to have one child. The preferred sex is
    male as,
    
    a/ Will carry families name forward to another generation.
    
    b/ Has more chance of earning a decent living to support parents when
       older. (Please don't call me sexist, this is the way it is in
       China.)
    
    In other areas of China, reason b/ applies and also the percentage 
    ratio of boys to girls (don't know what it is now though) used to be 
    something like 47% - 53% respectively.
    
    On the news in England last night there was an item on Malcolm
    Rifkind(sp?), the foreign secretary challenging his Chinese counterpart on
    these allegations.
    
    The Chinese minister contended that the documentary was all lies and
    took Mr Rifkind on a tour of the orphanage.
    
    The orpanage showed lots of colourful toys, happy children, smiling
    nurses on no sign of the "dying rooms".(surprise, surprise.)
    
    
    CHARLEY
    
    

    
    I watched the programme and cried buckets... it really upset me I have
    the picture in my mind of the little girl the reporters found in a room
    where shhe had been left to die 10 days previously.. I cant get that
    picture out of my mind.....
    
    
    
    Shelley

    
    
    I didn't watch the show because I knew it would disturb me alot.
    
    Chris
    

    Yeah that's why I did not watch it..
    
    Paula

One of my buddies here (who just left the group to go back contracting) is
going through this process. They've had to provide the goverments with TONS of
documentation and been interviewed and will hopefully go over to China in April
to get a child. He's mentioned that there's 2-3000 babies brought back into the
US under this program but obviously this isn't making a dent in this issue.

Jim

    I find things like child abuse very distressing.......and sad..
    
    Is abuse a strong enough word though?
    
    D.

Deb,

I don't think there are *any* words strong enough to describe this horror.

I was really turned off China's inhumanitarianism many years ago after
reading a few articles about mandatory abortions, even when the mother was
as far along in her pregnancy as 8 1/2 months.  Shocking what they do to
control population.  Why don't they just put birth control in the water supply?
Curtailing pregnancy would be a much better option than homicide, IMO.

Lola

    
    Lola.. there were some incidences of the enforced abortion on the
    documentary show last night.. it really was horrific..
    
    
    Shell

    I really abhore things like that Shell, but Im glad I didnt see it - I
    dont think I could have stomached it!!
    
    luv
    
    D.

	Disgusting Shell, disgusting.

	Lola

    
    How do you do anything though.. it leaves you feeling very helpless...
    
    
    
    
    Shell

Well, there are organizations here in the states that are helping people go
through the process of adoption. I suppose one method would be to support those
groups.

    I did not want to watch the program. But I considered that I should
    watch. As it said in the program the Chinees are a very proud race. In
    my view the knowledge that how ever many thousand people watched this
    program and saw what is happening, was a very powerful tool. The
    chinees goverment has "lost face". maybe if they loose enough face they
    might change.
    
    I felt that I would rather know and be aware than to hide and pretend
    life is nice!!!!
    
    
    Tracey 

        As I am a Chinese and I am now living in Beijing, I 
        think I should say something. Everybody should bear this 
        fact in mind: China is now has a population of over 1.1 
        BILLION. And the population is fast booming. No doubt 
        that a very strict birth control is absolutely 
        necessary.
        
        And since over 80% of the population is living in 
        countryside with little education, the family plan is 
        very difficult to be implemented. Some families will try 
        to get a boy at any cost, that is the main cause of some 
        of the tragedy. It is rarely happened in the relatively 
        developed cities.
        
        Compared with the achievement, overall I think that 
        family plan is successful and right. 
        
        Dick

    One of the orphanages featured in "return to the dying rooms" was in
    Beijing.
    
    Everyone excepts that there is a need for population control, but not
    at any cost. 
    
    tracey 
    
    

    I agree...........human life should have more value.
    
    
    luv
    
    D.

    I do not agree with China's policies. I thought I should state that
    first, the thing I really want to say is, instead of bitching and
    moaning and saying how horrible it all is .... let's help develop some
    "workable, affordable" solutions for the populuation problem in China.
    Remember, it could happen here as easily. This is a human issue, not a
    Chinese issue.

    
    Though I understand the need for "population control" I cannot condone
    the systematic slaughter of innocent children and I would never agree to
    any efforts to justify this action. There are programmes in force to
    try and develop workable solutions to the problem but in the mean time
    the Chinese government must stop what is going on in the orphanages.
    
    
    
    
    Shelley

    they wont stop it Shelley and I'll tell you why - cos it'll cost too 
    much money!!........that's what I mean......money is valued more than
    human life!!!
    
    luv
    
    D.

Well, the quality of life of an overpopulated country is pretty poor and while
I don't condone the dying room policy, I'm not sure I like the option of
mandated sterilization either. I think that China is setting itself up for a
major problem in the next 20-30 years when the predominantly male population
comes of age. I think a social change that valued women as equals would help
reduce some of this but those changes aren't going to happen in a generation.
Ancient times had similar periods. Look to Sparta and see much of this going
on. The Vikings had some of it as well. This isn't a new problem, we've just
convinced ourselves that humans are more civilized than it (which I'm not sure
I agree with either)

Nope, until we can figure out a way for the people being born to have a quality
of life that allows them to go on living to maturity, dying rooms might go away
but then you end up with something like Bangladesh where the death is in the
slums. If the people outnumber the available food/services, death will take
it's toll.

    
    This is not only a problem in China. For example Afrika, it is
    expected that the population is doubled in 30 years not speaking
    of enough food etc.
    People should be educated using the pill and condoms. This could also
    save a lot of people from aids.
    It's all politics and their believe, the curch doesn't support the use
    of condoms, all this in '96, can't believe it.
    
    Ray
    

    Hello !
    
    
    	   Hi !	Peeps (Thought I would give it a try)
    
    
    
                         SJB
    

    Hi,
    
    I want to make one thing clear: I can't see any relations between the 
    dying rooms and Chinese birth control policy. The things like the 
    dying rooms may happen, but it is just a particular case that could 
    happen in any country, like murders or other kind of  crimes that is 
    happening everywhere on the world.
    
    Orphanages may not have as good condition as some rich countries, but 
    it is definitely not a place to murder children. 
    
    Dick
    
    
    

    
    	We have female infanticide prevalent in India also... I think China
    has done an excellent job of population control ( you'd have heard only
    of the killings but they have implemented other methods such as less
    benifits to families that have more than one child )... but look at us
    Indians...we keep crying about increasing pouplation and educating
    people in birth control but where has it got us ? well we're all set to
    overtake China by 2010.... all because people believe that children (
    male ) are a gift of god and ofcourse they will grow up and increase
    the income of the family whereas females are a burden cause they go
    away after they grow up and marry.....( I'm sorry but thats true... and
    since as much as 75% or our pouplation is rural.. it compounds it )
    
    Ravi.

    
    Re Dicks comments about murder/abuse going on worldwide.. although this
    is very true the big difference is that in the main we dont condone
    this.. people who commit outrages of this sort are punished not
    promoted. I feel really strongly on this issue and so I hope I'm not
    offending anyone by my views. If you watched the programme and saw the
    chldren tied to chairs and starved both of nutrients and affection I
    cant see how you could possibly condone it unless you have no emotions
    at all. I would feel the same on this issue wherever in the worl it
    occured and I'm just as incensed by child abuse in this country.
    
    
    
    
    
    Shelley

	My sentiments are the same as yours, Shelley.  Dick, the way
	population control ties into it is that it is much more humane to
	prevent a life before it happens than to abuse and murder that life
	after it has come into the world.  I can't condone the killing of
	children, but why does it have to be done in such a tortureous
	manner if it is inevitably going to happen?  Can't they just give the
	victim an injection and mercifully end the life instead of starving
	it to death?  Not that I at all condone this either.

	Ravi, I think it's a da*n shame that one sex is valued more highly
	than the other, and I know this happens in many cultures.  I'm glad
	I don't live in such a culture.  Hopefully one day the world will 
	realize that all humans are created equally and should be treated
	with dignity and respect regardless of race, sex, religion, sexual
	preference or national origin. 

	Lola

Yeah, what Lola said.

    
    Lola,
    
    No offense meant...but in the spirit of debate.
    
    I do NOT agree with your statement that you don't live in a culture
    that values one sex over another.   I'm not a raging feminist but all
    you have to do is look at the statistics.  
    
    Who makes more money for the same work?
    Which sex is more likely to live below the poverty line?
    Which 'crime' is taken more seriously?
    
    I could go on and on.
    
    /jen

    No, Scott, I aint busy
    
    
    luv
    
    D
    
    x

/jen,

I'm sure you could go on and on, and I'm sure many of the points would be valid.
However, this country is trying to promote equality of the sexes.  That's
why we have all these sexual discrimination laws now.  I personally make the 
same as men in my field, my group has more female managers than male,
women can get quality education here and I could go on and on.  I'm not saying 
there is no sexual discrimination in this country but I do not feel that a
male child is valued over a female one.

Lola

    
    Ah..just continuing on the lively conversation.
    
    Many of may be 'trying to promote equality of the sexes' but we have a
    long way to go.  You may make as much as men in your field but by the
    statistics, that puts you in the minority.  And it may be because you
    work for Digital which is considered a pretty progressive company.
    Yet, even here it is evident.  Last year I was 'privileged' enough to
    attend a meeting with Bob Palmer.  It was Bob and all his Business Unit
    VP's and all their Controllers around a big mahogany table with us
    'little people' up against the wall.  Guess what...EVERY person at that
    table was a white male over 40!
    
    And you mention sexual discrimination law suits almost as if they are a
    'positive' sign.  It is good that something is being done to attempt to
    right wrongs, but if our society in total truely valued both sexes
    equally, you wouldn't have a need for the lawsuits.
    
    We've got work to do in education - studies still show that males are
    called on more than females, and females are still discouraged from
    persuing technical education  (i.e. maths and sciences).   Also, in
    areas of medicine it has been shown that very little money is allocated
    to diseases that traditionally only affect women.
    
    Like I said...America is a wonderful place and we enjoy many luxuries
    and benefits but we still have much dissension in our ranks.  If our
    government were to suddenly impose a one-child mandate like China, I
    wouldn't want to hazard a guess what behaviour we'd see here!  
    
    /jen

Yes /jen, we do have a long way to go, but we also have come a long way and 
that's working in the right direction.  I agree there is alot of sexual 
discrimination still in this country, but we have it FAR better than in 
countries such as India or China, which was my point.

I realize the majority of corporate america is made up of white males.
Maybe I've always been lucky, making as much as the males in my field...
even when I was in sheetmetal, one of three women out of a union of 600.
Believe me, I know what discrimination is. 
    
>    And you mention sexual discrimination law suits almost as if they are a
>    'positive' sign.  It is good that something is being done to attempt to
>    right wrongs, but if our society in total truely valued both sexes
>    equally, you wouldn't have a need for the lawsuits.
 
I did NOT mention *anything* about LAWSUITS!!!  I said "laws" , which are a good
thing...especially when the purpose of such laws is to try to help a society
evolve.

>    We've got work to do in education - studies still show that males are
>    called on more than females, and females are still discouraged from
>    persuing technical education  (i.e. maths and sciences).   Also, in
>    areas of medicine it has been shown that very little money is allocated
>    to diseases that traditionally only affect women.
 

Well, studies can be skewed and figures can be twisted.  I know in the schools
I went to women were encouraged as much as men were, to take  pre college 
courses and to concentrate in science and math.  I was in advanced math classes
from 6 grade on, and we had a nearly equal number of both sexes.  I can
only speak from personal experience.  

   
>    Like I said...America is a wonderful place and we enjoy many luxuries
>    and benefits but we still have much dissension in our ranks.  If our
 

I agree with this.

>   government were to suddenly impose a one-child mandate like China, I
>    wouldn't want to hazard a guess what behaviour we'd see here!  
 
Couldn't even speculate. I don't really think you understood the point that I
was trying to make at all /jen.  I was not saying there is no sexual 
discrimination here...  My point was that I'm happy to be here than in a
country where it is so obviously blatant.  It you really want to debate
this issue, Womannotes is a more appropriate place...


Lola

But back to the topic at hand...

You don't see any extremes being taken to prefer one sex over the other. With
a birthrate of 2.4 children per family, we won't be in China's situation for
a while. Our sex distribution is still pretty close to 50/50, not the 47/53
claimed in the original text. We aren't exporting our children on a single
sex basis like the Chinese girls my friend is adopting. We've gotten away
from the old mentality were children are family laborers and more is better.
I think if we can limit the population growth (or keep it low like it
currently is) we won't be put in the position of China to need the mandates.
I know when Rose and I started our family, we were looking for a boy and then
a girl, which we got, but I don't think we would have kept trying until a boy
was born (or a girl if they were all boys). I also don't see any real benefit
to which sex the children are. To be honest, I expect my middle daughter to
go significantly farther due to her brains, more than her plumbing.

Nope, the point was that there isn't any infantcide happening in america at
the present time and there is in other nations. that's a hurtle that needs to
be jumped before we worry about who's sitting on mahogany row.

Jim

    
    I know...and I'll drop it soon.
    
    But we do have our own form of infanticide (and no I don't think it
    favors one gender over the other).
    
    All you have to do is look at the number of children in American that
    are living or should I say DYING in poverty.  In our land of plenty
    this is a sin.   Go to the rural areas of Mississippi...go to the
    Bronx.   It looks a lot like the worst third-world country conditions
    you can imagine.
    
    We have a lot to work on to improve the average living conditions here.
    It's gonna take a lot of education, medical availability and job
    infrastructure.   
    
    Pretty overwhelming!
    
    /jen  

Unfortunately what you say is true, /jen and it's a crying shame.  We have
more than enough resources to feed our own starving and still have leftover
food.  Warehouses full of rotting food, farmers getting paid NOT to grow crops.
It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Lola

But these are hurtles we are standing at because we've gotten beyond the
others. You don't have to worry about a starving youngster if you're trying
to kill off the infants. These are all problems yet to become number one in
these other countries

So what does that make us?

Further along the road and, hopefully, continuing to make progress.

    
    But it still comes down to personal responsibility.  DO NOT bring a
    child into the world if you're not prepared and capable of caring for
    them.   
    
    /jen

Which isn't the same as the initial sexual preferences reasons that started
this.

A child WAS wanted. It was to be a MALE child though...

We have overcome that stumbling block and I think we're getting better on the
personal responsibility front.

	/jen,

	How about adding to that...DO NOT bring a child into this world if 
	you're not fully prepared and capable of taking care of *yourself*
	and that child???

	Lola

    Well, after channel surfing this morning I happened to stop on Cinemax
    long enough to see that their Vandgard Cinema on Wednesday January 24th
    is this piece on the Dying Rooms. The preview images were pretty
    disturbing. So, it any of the US readers want a look for yourself, tune
    into Cinemax on the evening of the 24th.
    
    Jim

    
    Joyce,
    
    I found it interesting that the NZ government will not allow single
    people to adopt.  I assume when you say this you mean neither single
    men or woman?  They may receive more scrutiny here in the US but
    adoptions by single parents are allowed.
    
    Could you tell us more about China's culture....maybe it would help
    shed light on this.  For example is reproductive education the norm?
    Is artificial birth control readily available and affordable and
    understood by the average person (both in urban and rural areas?)?
    Under what circumstances are abortions allowed?   Besides the laws
    what are the cultural taboos?     Are women granted paid maternity
    leave?  
    
    For those of you that have already seen the program, did it address
    issues like this?   
    
    /jen
    

	/jen,


	What is "artificial" birth control? 

	Lola


    
  
    
  

Contraception instead of rhythm or abstinance (sorry if it's misspelled. It's
not part of my normal vocabulary)

Silly me , I took the meaning to be something not real instead of something 
man-made.  Wouldn't make much sense that wya :-)))


Yeah, yeah...we know abstinence is foreign to you!!

Lola

    Hi /jen,
    
    you're asking for a lot of info. there ma'am!  :)  It's actually
    pretty crude and simple in China; to cut a long story short, there is
    *forced* sterilisation in China.  There is birth control, freely
    available.  There is a one child policy.  Chinese people are (God 
    help us) ignorantly sexist.  It's not that human life isn't valued,
    but female life that isn't valued.  A male child carries your family
    name, thus your lineage.  So if you give birth to a daughter, you
    make her disappear; chance for another child.
    
    Lola, sorry you didn't get a chance to read my note Sweetie :)  I 
    must admit, I entered it in a fit of angst and was told (quite rightly)
    to get off my moral high horse.  You see, I've been trying to adopt
    a baby girl from China.  Hell, I'd adopt 10 baby girls from China, if
    they'd let me!  So anyone wanna marry me so I can have babies?? :)
    
    Catch you later,
    Joyce
    

    
    Laura, Sorry for this late reply but we're trying to get people to
    recoganise the fact that a child (male/female) has the same
    opertunities available. This point is being driven home lately with the
    fact that the job sector is opening up to and being filled with more
    girls and they are doing a very commendable job. It'll take some time
    for this to trickle into the rural sections but get there it will...
    *8) and Sex Education is a taboo subject here simply beacuse the
    parents fear that the kids will end up learning more that their parents
    know and thus will be a threat to their authority ( I know it sounds
    stupid but thats the way it stands )
    
    Ravi.

	Joyce...good luck, I hope you can manage to adopt...can you just marry
	a friend, adopt and then annul the marraige??  :-)))

	Ravi, I'm flad to hear the doors are beginning to open up for females
	there.  That's the first step!

	Lola

01/19/96 - 06:02 PM ET - 
    
Chinese admit to detention

BEIJING - The government admitted Friday that it had
detained the brother of the woman who provided most of the
information for a dramatic report on deliberate starvation in
orphanages. 

But China said the man was released after just one day in
custody, while Human Rights Watch, the agency that issued the
report, said he had been held three days, released and then
detained again. 

The report, which told of orphanage officials denying children
food and medicine in order to keep orphanage populations down,
received wide attention outside China and angered the
government, which is sensitive to criticism of its policies and
human-rights record. 

Most of the information in the report came from Zhang
Shuyun, a former doctor in a Shanghai orphanage who now
lives in the United States. 

On Jan. 9, two days after the report was issued, her brother
Zhang Jian was taken from his home in Shanghai, Foreign
Ministry spokesman Yuan Xiaoyin said Friday. Zhang Jian had
been trying to leave the country illegally, Yuan said. 

Yuan said Zhang Jian was released the same day, but Human
Rights Watch official Mickey Spiegel in New York said he
spent three days in custody without food and medication he
needs. Spiegel said Zhang Jian was detained again on Tuesday.
It was unclear whether he has since been released. 

His sister said by telephone from New York on Thursday that
she discovered her brother's detention last week when she tried
to contact her family. She said she was reluctant to call again,
fearing that she might further endanger her family. 

Zhang Jian's family was notified Monday that he was accused
of subverting the government, his sister said. The charge carries
a minimum sentence of 10 years in prison and could result in
the death penalty. 

She said the government also confiscated cash and jewelry she
left behind to help cover costs of medical care for her parents,
when she left China last year. 

Officials had refused to confirm or deny any of her assertions
until Friday's statement about Zhang Jian's detention. 

The government accuses the report of doctoring or staging
photos showing emaciated, dying children tied to cots. 

Shortly after its release, China's Foreign Ministry and the
Shanghai government took foreign journalists on a tour of the
Shanghai facility, which since 1993 has improved and become a
main source of children for foreign adoptions. 

By The Associated Press 

    

    Hi 
    
    I've just been reading this note, what can you say its painfull,
    of course the pain comes from them being children, I was working
    in Liverpool the other night, as I drove home in the snow I saw
    a tramp walking down the expressway looking for somewhere to sleep
    this to is painful, there is next to nothing you can do about the
    internal goings on in china, but how many of you have stopped and
    given a tramp a fiver lately, by this I'm not trying to imply a
    thing, but when it all boils down to it you can talk about things 
    till your blue in the face, unless you can do something about what's 
    the point, the thing that gets to me is when you see something 
    in the paper about a member of our royal (ha ha ha) family who
    is complaining she's broke and runs up a 3 million debt, I wish
    there was somewhere in China I could send her.
    					       I think you must all be
    very caring people who wrote in this note and its an pleasure to
    work with all.
    
    regards
    
    Mike.
    
    
    				 

    Welcome to FRIENDS, Mike ... and thank you for sharing with us. I hope
    we will be seeing alot more from you from now on.
    
    
    Serenity

    Hi Serenity,
    
    Thank you for your kind words, this is the very best conference to read
    and write in to, one day maybe if we are very lucky all the people in
    it may meet.
    
    hugs
    
    Mike.

    AHH!  but some of them already have, 
    
    Tracey
    (remember stoke!!)