[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference 7.286::fddi

Title:FDDI - The Next Generation
Moderator:NETCAD::STEFANI
Created:Thu Apr 27 1989
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2259
Total number of notes:8590

1129.0. "FDDI network; 254KM SMF length; Solution ?" by HGOVC::GUPTA () Wed Oct 27 1993 08:01

One of the Power companies in Hong Kong is looking for an FDDI network with the
diagram as shown below (Fig 1). They have already laid single mode (9/125 um)
fibre optic cable. Now the topology shown below has two FDDI violations -

1. Fibre length between Sites A,B and B,C is more than 40 KM (SMF).
2. Total fibre lenght is 252 KM (more than 200 KM allowed).

Just now I am coming back from this customer and pointed out to him these
issues. But he insists on this config and very confidently said "If you use
only DEC products, this network cannot be realized. Optical laser repeaters may
have to be used."  What are these Optical laser repeaters ? First of all, can
the following network be realized, DEC or non-DEC and still meet FDDI specs ?

There was another Power generation company who insisted on using 6KM of
Multi-mode fibre. And, yes, Fiberonics provided the necessary equipment !
This current tender is also very big (a lot more ethernet, E1 links besides
fibre) and from all indications, we do not have a solution. Anyone disagree ?

Here in Hong Kong, Power generation/distribution companies lay their own FDDI
cables alongwith power cables and then ask vendors to support all sorts of
lengths. And there are companies who do that. These companies do not mind
non-standard compliant products. To them, cable is a very scarce resource. And
yes it is.

Do we have any plans of supporting configurations with a lot longer fibre than
the FDDI specs say ?

Regards,
Surender
			        ,---------,
	             ,----------|Site - A |------------------------,
		     |	    	`---------'                        |
                     |                                             |      
		     |  42KM, 21dB attenuation                     | 24KM,
	             |                                             | 12dB 
                     |                                             |    
,-------,       ,---------,                                    ,---------,
|Site-E |-------| Site-B  |                                    | Site-D  |
`-------' 6KM,  `---------'                                    `---------'
          3dB        |                             ,--------,       |
		     `-----------------------------| Site-C |-------'
                                 44KM, 22dB        `--------'   11KM, 5dB
                                                        |4KM
                                                        |2dB
                                                   ,--------,
                                                   | Site-F |
						   `--------'

			Fig 1: FDDI network (customer wants)

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1129.1private fiber transmissionPERE::BRUCEWed Oct 27 1993 13:2732
    hi surrender

    The FDDI specs are pretty clear about the characteristics of the
    various pmds. So if the customer absolutely wants FDDI over this fiber
    I think he is out of luck. However if the customer wants to run
    multi-protocol data at ~100 megabits per second he has some options.

    He needs two things: a carrier for his fiber optic, and a data-link to
    for his routers etc. to access this carrier.

    The best approach for the future for this customer might be a private
    Sonet (SDH) Lightwave carrier system. On this carrier there is a
    standard to run ATM which can connect his data processing equipment
    (and voice and Video). Note that Digital will be soon making a big ATM
    announcement and there is a lot of information about ATM on 
    SCHOOL::ATM$PUBLIC:

    (you might want to also mail Fred Goldstein about a proposed FDDI over
    SONET mapping but why bother when ATM will be so standard)

    While this approach is pretty new so your customer might expect a
    number of equipement availability and interoperability problems.

    If the customer needs immediate access to this net he might want to get a
    proprietary transmission systems (Maybe with an upgrade path to SONET
    SDH) that provides T1/T3 framing for these links. Then he can use
    standard muxs, routers and PBX over the T1/T3 links..

    Alcatel, Fujitsu, and NEC are all good vendors of transmission
    equipment in the Far East. 

    
1129.2One vendorJUMP4::JOYPerception is realityWed Oct 27 1993 14:5219
    I received this info from Bruce Thompson and have forwarded same to the
    author of .0. This is a vendor for laser repeaters for FDDI networks.
    
    
    Contact:
    FDDI Electronics
    167 Henry ST.
    Greenwich, Conn. 06830
    
    (203)531-3439
    
    Product Model name:
    SM1300
    
    Price approximate: $4500
    
    
    Debbie
    
1129.3KONING::KONINGPaul Koning, B-16504Wed Oct 27 1993 16:2376
This sounds like the same question I just answered in Mail, so I might as
well post my comments here...

First of all, on the question of the distance limits:

The station distance for SMF isn't a fixed limit.  Instead, the limit is on
the link loss (or, equivalently, the received power).  I think 40 km is
mentioned mostly because a reasonable SMF installation shouldn't have any
problem meeting the loss limits at that distance.  If you need 60 km, it
may well be that this can still be done; the way to find out is to do
the link power budget calculations for the particular choice of fiber
cable used, the number and quality of connections and splices to be used,
etc.

As for the total ring size, we've done other bids for rings somewhat in excess
of the standard 200 km limit.  The actual critical parameter is the total
ring latency (D_Max).  The ring circumference is one factor contributing
to that; station latency is the other.  The 200 km rule allows for a lot
of stations.  If you have a topology with a small station count, you can
have more fiber without exceeding D_Max.  Again, the way to find out is to
do the calculations.  

If analysis shows that this all works out, it would be wise to make sure
the people who have to support the customer buy into it.  It would be
embarassing to build a working ring, only to find out that local people
don't believe in it because it doesn't go by the book as they understand
it.  If you run into trouble on that front, we should be able to help, because
that should only involve explaining the background behind the "cookbook"
rules and why the topology in question is valid and supportable.

Second, on the subject of repeaters:

Be careful with that.  If "laser repeater" means something that simply
amplifies the signal (as opposed to something that looks roughly like
a concentrator with only two ports) it may not work properly.  There is
an analogous case: some people use outboard boxes by various vendors that
convert MMF to SMF; those often do not work well and in particular not
at long distances.  The problem is that they introduce distortion in the
signal, and timing problems.  Just because there is enough light doens't
mean that the signal is acceptable.

It's best to avoid devices of that kind.  Devices that are actual FDDI
stations (what I mentioned above as "concentrators with two ports") are
of course acceptable.  Failing that, if you do use such things, be sure
to check out the resulting system THOROUGHLY.

And finally...

The configuration rules for FDDI are just like those for Ethernet: they
are designed to let you build networks that will work.  In both cases,
it is possible to build networks that do NOT meet the rules and yet appear
to work.  That may be for two reasons:

1. The configuration is in fact legal, but uses a combination of choices
   not described by the configuration rules because the rules do not list
   every possibility, only those that are reasonably easy to describe and
   understand.

2. The configuration is NOT legal and is NOT reliable, but you've been lucky
   so far.

There are a lot of case #2 around, unfortunately.  Those are dangerous, because
while you may like having won the bid, you won't like having to keep losing
money on the support contract!

For example, if some competitor is reckless enough to bid a 6 km MMF link,
I'd let them go ahead and fall all over themselves.

However, the case you mentioned may well be ok.  I don't have the SMF link
budget numbers memorized, but the link losses mentioned sound like they may
work.  Check the detailed specs.  And the total ring size is probably not
a problem either.  In any case: do the detailed analysis (or get help doing
it if you need it) and go ahead with the bid if the analysis says it's ok.
If it says that it's not ok, stay away!

	paul