Conference 7.286::dcu

    Re .0
    
    While I would find that annoying in your shoes too I can fully
    understand why they won't fax a statement. How would you like it if I
    called up pretending I was you (that's easy I can find out your badge
    number really easily -and legally I may add, in just a few hours-)
    and ask that your statement be faxed to a local fax number to me.
    
    So for security reasons I agree with the policy. I hope they told you
    why they wouldn't fax you a statement.
    
    Dave

    Well, not really. However, I can't see the difference between mailing
    it and faxing it. If they ask enough information, they should be able
    to verify it's me. I was able to fax them a letter requesting them to
    close out an account by transferring it to another account. They got
    my signature and did it, but how did they really know it was me? What
    purpose does a statement serve to anyone but me? Yes, I know, my
    account balances. But this doesn't do them any good without a check or
    my pin numbers. If I had them fax it to a Digital location, wouldn't
    that provide a level of security? I could see if I wanted it faxed to a
    storefront location, but if they fax it to a DTN, who else would it be?
    
    More comments?

>    Well, not really. However, I can't see the difference between mailing
>    it and faxing it. If they ask enough information, they should be able
>    to verify it's me. 

How much is enough?  

>I was able to fax them a letter requesting them to
>    close out an account by transferring it to another account. They got
>    my signature and did it, but how did they really know it was me? What
>    purpose does a statement serve to anyone but me? 

Well, someone could see the amounts of checks you write, dates posted which
might lead them to 'conclusions' about you... Perhaps some future use could
found by law enforecement agencies, for instance.

>Yes, I know, my
>    account balances. But this doesn't do them any good without a check or
>    my pin numbers. 

Why?  No money has left them.

>If I had them fax it to a Digital location, wouldn't
>    that provide a level of security? I could see if I wanted it faxed to a
>    storefront location, but if they fax it to a DTN, who else would it be?

Anybody.  Sometime check out the list of calls made from your office phone.
You might find some calls that you did not make.  People HAVE been known to make
use of other people's resources when they were not around.  SO, it can really be
ANYONE on the other end of the line.

    I don't know much about FAXing but it's it more expensive then
    the mail? I know that I took something to a commercial place to
    FAX and it cost me 5-6 bucks.
    
    		Alfred

   Re: .2 -- Identify yourself
   
   If I can identify myself well enough over the phone to withdraw money
   from all of my accounts so that they go down to $5 each, then I would
   think I could identify myself enough to get a statement sent to
   somewhere other than my mailing address.
   
   If security is an issue, then I should not be able to withdraw money
   via the phone.  Even though the check will go to the address on file
   I can screw up someone's life royally.
   
   Example:  I figure out how to make the DCU think I am John Doe.  I
   have them empty his checking account and send him the money via mail. 
   I have found that DCU checks take about 5-7 days to reach me.  Now
   all of John's checks start bouncing.
   
   

    Well, law enforcement agencies should only be able to get check
    statements after producing a subpeona. 
    
    Also, I like using DCU. However, it is frustrating not to be able to
    get the same level of service that people get in Massachusetts or other
    large locations. I could walk into a branch and get them to print a
    statement and my problem would be solved.
    
    I agree about money transfers. This should only be done with written
    authorizations to compare signatures or with the touch-tone systems.
    Verbal authorizations leave a lot to be desired and could be used to
    your detriment such as moving all money to one account and bouncing
    checks. At that point, who pays if this was done via verbal
    authorization?
    
    If they're so worried, why can't I authorize this via the touch-tone
    system? If I want a check statement faxed, another menu pick which asks
    for the destination phone number could be created. This should provide
    the security. 
    
    We need to make changes which serve ALL the membership, not just those
    people who live within a reasonable access time to a branch. Look at
    this from that point of view and see what you think...

Just because you can identify yourself properly to withdraw money over the
phone doesn't mean that DCU should start faxing statements.  Sure, they COULD
determine that the person requesting the statement was the account holder.  But
they CANNOT be guaranteed that the statement they fax will only be seen by that
account holder at the receiving fax.

Suppose the fax they initially attempt to send it to is busy for an extended
period of time?  I am certain that the employee doesn't have that correspon-
dingly extended amount of time to wait for it to free.  Then, the account holder
will see that the machine is busy, going back later to see if the statement had
been sent.  If it had, others COULD have seen it before the depositor arrived
to get the statement.

The bottom line is that once the fax is sent, they HAVE completely lost control
of who sees the statement.  Mailed statements can still be seen by someone else,
but that requires the 'someone else' to break a law (theft of mail).  There is
NO corresponding law regarding protection of received faxes.

They have enough problems on their hands now - they don't need to have a com-
plaint from a depositor that someone else saw their statement before they could
get to the fax machine.

    Well, -.1 is simply an excuse. If you really want it and need it,
    you will provide the proper security yourself. I know that the 3 fax
    machines in our office aren't busy all the time and if I really needed
    the statement I should be able to get it.
    
    I know that I would have to make the necessary sacrifices to get it
    done, but this just reinforces the lack of services which are NOT
    available to members without access to a branch. We need to EVENTUALLY
    fix this problem.

    
    This is a real tough one.  Good points on both sides.  I tend to lean
    more to the conservative side when it comes to security of personal
    financial information.  While some people don't care who sees it,
    others care a LOT about who sees it.
    
    How about if each member could have a FAX number as part of his profile
    on file at DCU?  The member would also sign the proper releases holding
    DCU harmless if it sends information via this method.  Then there is
    the cost.  I don't think DCU should be eating the entire costs of this
    service.  Charging the costs over and above the costs of mailing maybe?
    
    DISCLAIMER: None of this is a commitment for any action on my part or
    DCU.  It is just input into this discussion as a MEMBER.
    

    This one is not tough at all.

    If a member wants his statements via FAX, and can supply the
    appropriate identification by answering the appropriate questions, the
    DCU should FAX him his statement.  The member can supply his own
    security as an earlier note suggested.

    If a member doesn't want to take a chance on someone else seeing his
    statement, and is unable to provide the security, then he shouldn't ask
    for a FAXed statement, and the DCU can inform him of that when the
    request is made.

    Very simple.  The only question remaining is can the DCU reasonably
    support that service and should a charge be made.

    Since the DCU was stated to be an employee benefit, why not take advantage
    of the engineering network in some manner?
    
    We are now able to send requests to sell stock via VTX.  Why not get
    information on our DCU account via VTX or some other means?  For those
    concerned about security, they can disable this feature.
    
    Just a thought; it's a shame not to be able to take advantage of the
    Easynet.
    
    Gim
    
    

    In regard to -.1, this may be possible through the user of the INTERNET
    or X.400 mail. This should be a consideration. However, DCU can not
    take advantage DIRECTLY of the EASYNET.
    
    I agree about the extra charge. However, it must be a charge where
    credit is given for the postage, envelope, and interior handling of the
    mail by DCU personnel against the FAX charge. Since it would probably
    take less than a minute to FAX a statement, how much could it cost?
    
    What must be done to make this an official request?

May I suggest that somebody in this note thread make a suggestion to
Mary Madden (as I posted in 554.0) and see what happens. Let us know
the results here...

    
    RE: .13
    
    I will inquire concerning the use of FAXs at DCU.  Since it is a very
    quick method of transmitting documents (not only statements), its use
    should be evaluated, along with the risks, costs and benefits of course.
    
    I disagree on the security being the responsibility of the member
    alone.  DCU should still take reasonable precautions to protect the
    information.  Is a predetermined FAX number unreasonable or unworkable? 
    I think that would at least provide some security.
    

    Has anyone considered the fact that Digital's Faxes are supposed to
    be used for personnal business.  Not only would DCU being picking
    up the extra cost, but what about DEC?
    
    I'm not sure about the base noter, but some of the replies in here 
    specifically mentioned using Digital's faxes for this.  I don't
    think this is a good idea.
    
    Robyn

    
    RE: .16
    
    A very good point.  I agree that DEC FAXes should not be used for this
    purpose.  
    

    My reply in 553.16 should read "Digital faxes AREN'T supposed to be
    used for Personnal business" not are supposed to be.

    It may be reasonable to use Digital's FAX machines for DCU information.
    When I moved to Colorado and bought a house, I used Digital's FAX
    machines many times in all those transactions.

    That is *encouraged* by Digital because it is cheaper for Digital than
    using alternate means and charging the costs back to Digital.

    So it depends on what you are doing and why and whether Digital would
    consider the alternate means to be a legitimate expense.

    The major cost associated with operating a fax is the transmission
    cost. I regularly receive personal Faxes at Digital Locations.
    
    Of course, if you are happy with the mail clerk perusing your bank
    statements, so be it.
    q
    

    
    But there are costs to receiving FAXes.  Paper, employee time, time
    that FAX is tied up by non-business use and prevents/delays business
    related FAXes, etc.  But if DEC allows use of DTNs, interoffice mail,
    e-mail, etc., is this a real problem?  Nothing is ever as clear cut as it
    initially seems...
    

Here in LKG, I received a "stern lecture" for having an insurance document
from Prudential fax'd here. They wanted to know who my supervisor was, my 
badge number, etc. That is until I noticed several faxes from Metropolitan.

"I hope you're going to deliver this lecture to those people too?" "No,
Metropolitan is the company that is Metpay, ya know? They can do this because
Digital has a "relationship" with them." "So, let me get this straight - 
You are upset at me for having my insurance agent fax 1 page to me, yet all
those people have several pages each from their insurance agent and that's ok?"
"Well, yes." "My manager will LAUGH in your face if you tell him that."

and they dropped it. (and I was right - my manager got a good laugh out of it)
That was a couple of years ago now - and the PC on my desk now has a FAX/modem
card in it.

Bryan

    Well, haven't I read somewhere that Digital provides space to DCU at no
    cost for branch operations?
    
    If so, since I am in the field and don't have a branch, wouldn't the
    use of a FAX machine be at least a minor substitute?

Digital does (right?) allow their copiers to be used for minor personal use,
so why not FAX'es?

re:  .24

Nope, sorry.  The word I got was that NO digital property of ANY
kind may be used for ANY personal business.  Period.  This was 
explained to me (by some pretty high-up types) that this applied
without regard to level of use, duration of use, etc.  That is,
whether you make one copy or 100 or 1000 it's still against the
rules.  Whether you make a 1 minute LD call, or a 1 hour LD call,
it's still against policy.

This was further explained to me as applying to telephones, FAX
machines, photocopiers, binding equipment, office supplies, and
of course DEC's network and computer resources. In short, anything
DEC owns is to be used ONLY for work.

Just repeating what I heard....I realize that probably every single
employee in the Corporation disobeys these rules to some extent, but
this was what I was told was The Rules.  Draw your own conclusions...

./chris

    Take a walk around HLO some time and you'll see all the "Work related
    copies only" signs posted at all of the copiers.

    
    Getting back to the original question in .0...
    
    DCU has no problem with FAXing things to people.  They do hesitate on
    large items though.  From what I was told, .0 should have had no
    problem having something FAXed.  Maybe this was something new that the
    Help Desk hadn't encountered yet.
    

    Well, given -.1, how do we get this fixed permanently? My statement
    should have only been 2 pages. Will I have this problem again and who
    should I refer the help desk to if they refuse again?

    
    If you have a problem with a help desk situation, you might want to ask
    the person on the line to escalate it or ask to speak with a
    supervisor.  I'm sure since this a new setup, there will be things that
    need to be ironed out.