Conference 7.286::dcu

    I noticed in the latest P&L report that loans were down fromlast month
    by a large amount, IMHO.  This worries me, because that is where DCU
    makes its money.
    
    Another point of interest.  I was standing in line at my local office
    and over heard a member who wanted to get an loan of some sort.
    The person mentioned that they had a increase of $xxx dollars.  The DCU
    employee asked the branch manager about this.  The response was, if
    your loan is OK'd we can have it for you by the end of the week.  The
    person was looking for less than a week turn around.
    
    The person left with a confused look of what am I to do, in to which I
    read him thinking, 'What happens if the loan is not OK'd?  Where do I
    go when you tell me this, on Thursday or Friday?'.  I doubt he will get
    a loan from DCU.
    
    This has bothered me all day...
    
    	-mark

    
    
    	I dissagree with .2 A home equity, IMHO, is the absolute
    	WORST type of loan. Put another lein on you home for WHAT?!?
    	So you can get a favorable rate at the DCU? I think the DCU
    	should be trying to HELP the members rather than trying to
    	maxamize profits.
    
    	rth

I just found out that I couldn't go with a home equity line of credit anyway,
at least through DCU, since they deal with 70% of the appraised value minus
the mortgage balance.  That amount for me is less than $10,000, the minimum they
would allow for a line of credit.

    
    RE: .0
    
    DCU seems to be no better now than it was 5 years ago when I checked
    them out.  If DCU can't give a better or similar rate on a car loan to
    a member than he or she can get at a bank, then why does DCU exist? 
    Baybank has huge expenses that DCU does not.
    
    Also, I thought Chuck Cockburn was addressing these problems?  Is it
    better for DCU's money to lie fallow in a vehicle that covers the cost
    to DCU (3-4%?) or to 'invest' in a membership loan that they could drop
    to 8 or 8.5% and still yield a good 4% spread?  Anybody have any other 
    CU or bank auto loan rates?  Is DCU 1% higher than them also?  Is DCU
    subsidizing some other program with these higher rates? 

    
    
      FWIW,  DCU was 2% higher than NFCU for a used car loan about 2 
    months ago.  Obviously I went with NFCU.
    
    					-al

I just joined my 4th credit union today.  For an auto loan, with 24 hour
approval...

100% financing (no, I won't do it that way), 48 months, 8.25%.  If you
do either payroll deduction or other automatic deduction, it drops to 8%.
A big banner was also advertising 7% auto loans, but I have no idea what the
terms are.

Oh yes, no payments until July (Interest accrues) and a free car phone
thrown in at no charge, cellular provider waiving connect fee.

Bob

	re .2    
    
>    	I dissagree with .2 A home equity, IMHO, is the absolute
>    	WORST type of loan. Put another lein on you home for WHAT?!?
>    	So you can get a favorable rate at the DCU?
    
    	If you have to take out a loan for something, what does it matter
    	whether it is secured by a house or a car or just your personal
    	signature?  If the best rate is a home equity loan, then by all
    	means go for it!  If the tax laws make it even better, more
    	power to you!  If DCU does not give as favorable a rate on 
    	home equity loans as some other institution, it's DCU's loss.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    reply
    re: .8
    I'd rather have the bank reposess my car than my house!
    Worst case scenario, sure, but I'd rather not have it
    even be a remote possibility.  I suspect .2 is of the
    same mind.
    Your fear level may vary....
    

Personally, I wouldn't mind making it a home equity loan (if my appraised
value would permit it), because I wouldn't take the loan at all unless I
was *really sure* that I could repay it.

But let's talk worst case scenario here... if I got into financial trouble
and could not pay all my bills, you can bet I'd pay the mortgage first and
let the car payments go.  That's not an option if my car payments are
secured by my house.  I might lose my house instead of just my car.

And that's one reason why home mortgages are at lower rates than car loans.
Less risk.

Incidentally, to bring the topic full circle, my attitude about mortgage
payments is common among homeowners, but people with commercial mortgages
don't usually think that way.  They usually let their commercial mortgages
go the moment the property is no longer going to make money.  Or so I've
read.  That's why commercial mortgages (like for condo development on Cape
Cod) are higher risk than home mortgages.  And that's why during the 1980s
the DCU refused to loan its money to members wanting home loans, but put it
into Cape Cod commercial development instead.... :-)

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    Well, I guess if DCU is *still* uncompetitive for car loans then it
    must by their own choice.  They must already have too much money out in
    car loans and won't lend anymore unless the borrower is going to pay
    premium rates.  But last I heard DCU had $120 million on hand and was
    crying that we weren't borrowing money.  But they are selling all the
    mortgages they are writing so where are they loaning money?  Home
    equity loans?  Are their 'conservative lending policies' so
    conservative that even a car loan is considered a big risk?  
    
    If other banks and credit unions are surviving and thriving with lower rates
    what is the matter with DCU?  Could there be too much overhead?

I've been considering taking up the offer that I've been hearing on the radio
which a Gardner credit union will convert 1991 new car loans to their loans at
7.5%.  Considering this is a full two points below DCU and even more compared
to my current loan -- I'd be stupid not to save $80 a month... (not that that's
ever stopped me :-)

    re: .10
    I may be able to make the payment today; that's no guarantee about
    tomrrow.  As you no doubt are well aware, DEC's "no layoff" policy 
    went out the window quite a while ago.  

    
    .10
    
    	May I borrow your crystal ball to see into the future?? Mine is
    	not working, the screen printed something to the effect that
    	" due to TFSO the images presented may be updated at any time".
    
    	Unemployment MAY cover a house payment but not house PLUS car
    	or whatever.
    
    	rth

    $80/month savings on a car loan?  Are you buying a Rolls Royce or what?
    
    - Vikas

330 to 250

>            <<< Note 507.13 by MIPSBX::thomas "The Code Warrior" >>>>
>
>I've been considering taking up the offer that I've been hearing on the radio
>which a Gardner credit union will convert 1991 new car loans to their loans at
>7.5%.  Considering this is a full two points below DCU and even more compared
>to my current loan -- I'd be stupid not to save $80 a month... (not that that's
>ever stopped me :-)
	
	What Gardiner CU is this ?  My car loan is 12%  .... I'ld sure like
	to convert it somewhere/somehow seeing.  It was written is 1991.

	Chuck

    
    RE: .18
    
    I was born and raised in Gardner.  The only credit union up that way
    that I can think of is Gardner Franco-American Crediut Union.  I have 
    no idea what the field of membership is though.  My parents have a car
    loan through them.  Guess it's time to check into this and save them a
    few $$.

	I just called the GFA Credit Union in Gardner and yes indeed they
	do have a special conversion rate.  

	For a 1991 Car Loan 8% rewrite for 3 years or 8 1/2% for 4 years.

	The person I spoke to said the information they would need is
	the YEAR MAKE MODEL & Current Payoff of the loan along with the
	Name & account number where the loan currently is.  If you are
	close to the blue book value and your credit history is good they'll
	approve the loan within 24hrs.  It'll cost $25 to rework the title.

	Chuck

Re: .16 and .17

>    -< Or my math is all screwed up?? >-
>     $80/month savings on a car loan?  Are you buying a Rolls Royce or what?
>     

> Note 507.17      Another auto loan escapes DCU                 17 of 20
> MIPSBX::thomas "The Code Warrior"              1 line  25-MAR-1992 10:51
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 330 to 250

Unless MIPSBX::THOMAS did indeed buy a Rolls Royce, I suspect that the
number of payments required at $250 is greater than the number of
payments that would have been needed at $350.  The reduction in payment
is due to a lower interest AND an increase in the number of payments.

Gim

    RE: .21
    
    You have shown your keen financial accumen; you have got my vote :-)
    
    Seriously if you take 
    
    	15K/4yr/9.5% loan,   monthly pmt is $377
    	15K/4yr/7.5% loan,   monthly pmt is $363
    					  -------
    					    $14 difference
    
    If your take out [15 * (80/14)] = $85K loan then it will make $80
    difference in your monthly payment.
    
    You are right, you can't buy a Roll Royce for $86K these days :-)
    
    - Vikas

Ok, call it $50 a month (5yr@13% -> 5yr@7.5%).  I got confused and mixed up
my sister's condo payments.

    My threshhold has been exceeded.  I am no longer willing to moderate or
    tolerate petty bickering between individual noters.
    
    When the disagreements are directly related to the DCU, they are
    acceptable.  When there is no DCU-related content, then they will be
    hidden or deleted, depending on how much time I think I have available
    to deal with the issue.
    
    Notes 507.10,.24, .25, .26, and .27 have been set hidden and will be
    returned to their authors and deleted when I get around to it.
    
    Tom Eggers, DCU co-moderator

    	Well then you may as well delete .9 and .8 for that matter too.
    	(.8 erroneously references .2 where it should reference .3, BTW.)
    
    	Somebody has to defend DCU policy when it is not faulty.  That's
    	all I was trying to do.  People here (this conference) will pick 
    	at anything and everything DCU does whether the criticism is 
    	warranted or not.  (My anthill analogy.)  It is my position 
    	that .3 needs an honest counterpoint.  But you are welcome to 
    	control the content of this as you see fit.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    If it's a discussion of personal financing options, wouldn't it be
    better in INVESTING?
    
    RE: .29
    
    Just curious, what "DCU policy" was being assailed and defended?  That
    should be a reasonable topic.  Last I knew the topic was auto loans but
    have no idea what turn it might have taken.
    

>    Just curious, what "DCU policy" was being assailed and defended?  
    
.3>    	I dissagree with .2 A home equity, IMHO, is the absolute
.3>    	WORST type of loan. Put another lein on you home for WHAT?!?
.3>    	So you can get a favorable rate at the DCU? I think the DCU
.3>    	should be trying to HELP the members rather than trying to
.3>    	maxamize profits.
    
    	Somehow this reply connects the author's dislike for home equity
    	loans with DCU not trying to help people.  Not DCU's home equity
    	loan in particular, just home equity loans in general.  So the
    	fact that DCU offers home equity loans somehow means that DCU 
    	doesn't want to help people.
    
    	Back to the gang mentality.  Anything to pick at DCU.  Someone
    	has to stand up for them when they are being unfairly ridiculed.
    	This week it's my turn, I guess.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

re .31:  Was .3 gang mentality or not?  I beg that no one will try to 
answer that question -- it can't possibly help to debate it.

But .3 raises a valid point:  if DCU doesn't have an auto loan at a
competitive rate, it is not a valid excuse to say that DCU has a home 
equity loan at a rate that competes with auto loan rates.  They are 
different types of loans.  Surely we all want DCU to be competitive, 
or at least close, for both types.

As to the opinion in .3 that a HE is the "absolute worst type of loan",
well, several people (including myself) put in notes commenting that 
HE loans are appropriate under some circumstancs: in particular, when
you feel absolutely sure that you won't have a problem paying it back.
I think the author's criticism of HE loans is fair comment, though.
They are not appropriate in all cases.

As for the criticism of the DCU in .3:  I think that's a reaction to an 
earlier comment that if he doesn't like the auto loan rate, he could get
a HE loan.  Since the person who said that is not a DCU official, it isn't 
correct (in my opinion) to attribute that attitude to the DCU.  

But still, the fundamental issue is that the DCU doesn't have competitve
auto loan rates.  The author of .3 thinks they should, and I do, too.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    	There's no question that DCU does not have rates that are not
    	easily beaten when it comes to car loans.
    
    	I don't see what that has to do with the statement in .3.
    
    	.2 brought up HE loans as an alternative to car loans as
    	a general point -- the tax deductibility of HE loan interest
    	makes that loan more attractive than any other loan at a
    	comparable interest rate, all other things being equal.
    	Almost any bank/institution offers HE loans.  Whether I
    	get that loan at DCU or elsewhere, I can come out ahead.
    	Does that mean that all those other institutions also do
    	not want to help people?  Practically all of the other CUs 
    	lauded in this conference offer HE loans too.
    
    	Eventhough DCU's HE rate is as uncompetitive as the car
    	loan rate, I still fail to see how the fact that DCU offers
    	HE loans means that it does not want to help people.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
RE: .31    
    
>    	Somehow this reply connects the author's dislike for home equity
>    	loans with DCU not trying to help people.  Not DCU's home equity
>    	loan in particular, just home equity loans in general.  So the
>    	fact that DCU offers home equity loans somehow means that DCU 
>    	doesn't want to help people.
    
    As he enters into the flames, he zips up the suit and hopes for the
    best...
    
    OK, I can see where you get that impression.  I'm not sure I agree with
    it as you interpret it either.  But I went and re-read .3.  It seems a
    bit vague on what he meant.  Could he have meant that DCU should be
    offering car loans at good rates so people don't have to take out an
    equity loan on their house (and in the process get lien)?  And then
    there is the question for those members that don't happen to have
    houses to get an equity loan.  I'm not taking sides either way
    here.  I just think .3 may have been a bit vague about was meant by
    "trying to HELP the members".  Is .3 out there?  Clarification please?
    
>    	Back to the gang mentality.  Anything to pick at DCU.  Someone
>    	has to stand up for them when they are being unfairly ridiculed.
>    	This week it's my turn, I guess.
    
    	Hmmm, is one person a gang?  I didn't get to read the hidden
    replies to this note so I may not know what you do.  But labelling a
    bunch of people who may think alike, or had the same experience, a
    "gang" is a bit inflammatory IMO.  Are all Sunday morning church-goers
    a "gang" of religious people to you?  I think removing emotionally
    charged labels from all discussions would be a good thing for
    everybody.  It only serves to distract for the real issue and
    discussion.  Shortly thereafter the mud starts flying and all factual
    content is lost.
    
    So everybody, the facts and only the facts.  No labelling please,
    unless the people themselves have chosen the label themselves.  I'm
    sure Tom would appreciate it too.
    
    Please no flames, I'm taking the suit off now... 8-)

    Re: .-1
    
    Yes.  Thank you.

    
    
    	re .33
    
    	My oh my! what a fuss. In note .3 I was replying to .2 who
    	was discussing a HE loan refering to .1 OK is that clear?
    	IMHO I still think that taking a lein on a home for a car
    	is bad business, regardless of tax liability or any other
    	"perk". With the company going like it is, NONE of our jobs
    	are secure and to get a HE, IMHO, is foolish.
    
    	Also I still think that the DCU should be here to HELP the
    	patrons rather than trying to squeeze us at every turn. 
        I'd like to have my mortage thru the DCU but will not
    	pay the extra.
    
    	"Unwind yourself" King Louie, WD Jungle Book
    	rth

    	Phil --
    
    	Getting a car loan puts a lien on your car.  Either way you get
    	a lien.
    
    	As for the "gang" mentality, you know what I mean.  Practically
    	everything in this conference complains about the DCU.  No
    	praise for what's going right.  No compliments for good policies.
    	No defense.
    
    	Just complaints.  And when someone disagrees with the complaints
    	(as has happened to me) they are attacked by practically the
    	next person to open the conference.  No one person in particular,
    	just the next person into the conference.

    
	RE: .37
        
>    	Getting a car loan puts a lien on your car.  Either way you get
>    	a lien.
    
	Yes, I realize this.  But there are liens and then there are LIENS.
    I think that's what all the hubbub is about.  Hey, it's an opinion type
    of question.  Some people won't even take out a car loan but will
    insist on paying cash.  There is no right or wrong answer to any of
    this.  It depends on each persons situation, attitude, etc. 
        
>    	As for the "gang" mentality, you know what I mean.  Practically
>    	everything in this conference complains about the DCU.  No
>    	praise for what's going right.  No compliments for good policies.
>    	No defense.
    
    I've seen people post good experiences with DCU in here.  Hopefully
    there will be many more after April.
    
>    	Just complaints.  And when someone disagrees with the complaints
>    	(as has happened to me) they are attacked by practically the
>    	next person to open the conference.  No one person in particular,
>    	just the next person into the conference.

    Hmmmm...  But let's judge each complaint on its own merit.  To dismiss
    them all because others also have complaints seems to gloss over the
    validity of the complaint.  There are some invalid complaints in here. 
    They just don't draw any replies or support and die a very quiet
    death.  But one has to wonder why so many different people who belong
    to DCU have such similar complaints or horror stories.
    
    But you must admit, lately DCU has done quite a bit that warrant 
    complaints.  So let's just take them one by one on their own
    merits.  If somebody is vague or seemingly unjust about a judgement,
    ask for clarification or say you don't agree.  I don't think anybody
    expects everybody to always agree in here.  But I do think everybody
    expects that we can disagree without reaching down for that dirt
    (label?).
    
    On with the debate, no mud-slinging allowed!  We can see enough of the
    in the Democratic debates... ;-)

>    I've seen people post good experiences with DCU in here.  Hopefully
>    there will be many more after April.
    
    	AMEN!!!
    
>    But you must admit, lately DCU has done quite a bit that warrant 
>    complaints.  
    
    	Again, I agree with you 100%.
    
    	A concern of mine is that so much venom gets created that even
    	a member-friendly BOD will not be able to overcome the residual
    	effects.  That's why I call for moderation in DCU criticism.
    	Remember, once you guys get in there, you will have to work
    	with a DCU staff that will be hostile to you, and work for a
    	membership body that may be so soured to DCU itself that you
    	will have to work miracles to be effective.
    
    	Just because I am counter-vocal in this conference does not 
    	mean that I do not support the petition candidate drive to
    	replace the BOD.  Somebody has to play devil's advocate!
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
>                    -< I'm really on your side, you know. >-
    
    	Isn't everybody?? ;-)
    
>    	A concern of mine is that so much venom gets created that even
>    	a member-friendly BOD will not be able to overcome the residual
>    	effects.  That's why I call for moderation in DCU criticism.
>    	Remember, once you guys get in there, you will have to work
>    	with a DCU staff that will be hostile to you, and work for a
>    	membership body that may be so soured to DCU itself that you
>    	will have to work miracles to be effective.
    
    You got this right!  Right now DCU has put off so many members that it
    WILL take a miracle to restore membership levels and deposits.  But I'm
    counting on the fact that people will naturally do what's in their
    pocketbook's best interest.  That's what made them leave.  Hopefully
    it'll bring them back.
    
>    	Just because I am counter-vocal in this conference does not 
    
    Sorry, you're not 'counter-vocal', you're counter-opinion and
    definitely-vocal.  ;-)
    
>    	mean that I do not support the petition candidate drive to
>    	replace the BOD.  Somebody has to play devil's advocate!
    
    	WHAT?!  That is CNTROL::MACNEAL's job!  Does Keith know you're
    trying to usurp his role in the conference?  I think we need another
    election here.  This is going to be a tough choice!   8-)
    

Joe:

I hear your concerns about any future "member-friendly" (to borrow
your wording) board getting along with a DCU staff which is hostile.

My chief concern is that DCU's employees are not getting the straight
story.  There is definitely a seige mentality within DCU, and it's
my opinion that such a mentality is being fostered and encouraged by
not circulating *all* the information.  I'm concerned that the only
thing people over there are being told is that a "rebel group" is 
out to take over DCU and lead it to its grave.  Based on the way many
employees conducted themselves at the Special Meeting, I find it 
hard to believe that they're getting the whole story.

If elected, I'm committed to restoring trust at all levels - and that
includes DCU employees whether they're upper managers or at the lowest
level on the food chain.  The events of the past 12 months have been
very hurtful to both members and to employees.  We need to work hard to
overcome all the hostility and get back to work.

I believe that DCU's policies, and response to its membership, deserves
criticism, and that such criticism should continue until positive change
is effected.  Notes has a way of escalating small things to big things.
I'll bet if we were all in a room, instead of at workstations, things
wouldn't be nearly so strident.  Nevertheless, I believe that in the end
we'll see that all the talking, discussing, and debating in here will
prove to be good for DCU, and probably good for DEC.

./chris

As of today, (lucky) April 13, 1992, DCU has lowered their rates to BELOW what
Baybank has offered me.  Not only that:

	THEY NO LONGER REQUIRE A DOWN PAYMENT (i.e. 100% financing of
	new OR used cars)

In my case, 36 month loan, the rate is 7.9% vs the 8.5% rate at Baybank.  They
will also convert to a weekly payback plan in May.  Now I won't have to pay
$10.44 extra in postage in mailing my payments (assumes no increase in postal
rates over 3 years).

I submitted my application for my loan at 8:30 this morning at the LKG branch.

At 10:15 (same day) it was approved.

   re: 507.42 <ERLANG::MILLEVILLE>

   >As of today, (lucky) April 13, 1992, DCU has lowered their rates to BELOW
   >what Baybank has offered me.  Not only that: THEY NO LONGER REQUIRE A DOWN
   >PAYMENT (i.e. 100% financing of new OR used cars)  In my case, 36 month
   >loan, the rate is 7.9% vs the 8.5% rate at Baybank.

       Is that a fixed or variable interest rate loan?  It sure is refreshing
   to be hearing good news about DCU for a change.

   Tony

.44> > ...  In my case, 36 month
.44> >loan, the rate is 7.9% vs the 8.5% rate at Baybank.

.44>   Is that a fixed or variable interest rate loan?  It sure is refreshing
.44> to be hearing good news about DCU for a change.

It is fixed at 7.9%!

    Thursday August 13th at 8:45 a.m. turned in my completed application
    along with a copy of the owner's title and a letter of his intent to
    sell to me at the TAY1 branch.
    
    4:50 the same day, received a message to call (loan approved, check
    ready).  Signed the agreement and picked up the check today.  Fast,
    friendly service from Maxine.  7.9%, no money down, 2 year loan, based
    on automatic withdrawal.

    With the change in the company car plan, DCU has a good opportunity to
    win a lot of business from people going to plan B. Any thoughts?

    --- Paul

    As a interested party out in the middle of nowhere, what change to the
    car plan?

    From the '93 Kickoff DVN on 8/11, Don Zereski announced that the car
    plans would be changing:
    
    PLAN A: Qualification based on 500 business miles/month. Personal
    mileage at $.28.
    
    Plan B: $350 plus local equalizer reimbursement, maintain $.08 per
    mile.

    RE: .49
    
    FWIW, the word around here (haven't seen anything official; didn't see
    the DVN) is that Plan B also has the 500 business miles/month
    requirement.
    
    -- Russ

	The changes to the car plan are being discussed extensively
	in HUMANE::DIGITAL (press KP7 or SELECT to add this conference
	to your notebook) in topics 1664 and 2051. I suggest that discussion
	of the car plan itself (as opposed to things DEFCU might want to do 
	in response) continue there.

						Tom_K

    
    negotiated a $500 over invoice price on a wrangler on Saturday...
    fully prepared to finance it with DCU.  The dealer said what's
    the DCU rate. I said 6.9 for 60 months.....without hesitating
    he got me 5.9 through their financing, even better if I would
    go 48 months instead of 60.
    
    sorry DCU

    Did you ask him what the price would be if he didn't give you the
    financing?

    
    
    
    what difference does it make?  The rate is still better than
    dcu.  It doesn't matter that the dealer get's a little more profit cause
    he arranged the financing, I STILL get a better rate.....and his
    'profit' off of financing is saving me 1%.

    re: .54
    
    >what difference does it make?  
    
    In many cases, the auto dealer has to 'buy down' (pay a fee to the
    lending institution offering the lower interest rate, similar to
    'points' people pay to get a lower home mortgage rate) the interest
    rate.  In this case, the dealer probably has to charge a higher price
    for the car, to cover the cost of the buy-down.
    
    The end result for you is that you may pay a higher price for the car,
    and thus finance more dollars and pay more dollars in interest over the
    term of the loan with the low-interest dealer rate, than you might
    otherwise if you used other financing, giving the dealer more room when
    it comes to negotiating the purchase price.
    
    Bob

    
    this was the opposite.....they are getting the rate from a local
    credit union (not DCU) without any buy-down, and making a commission off 
    of bringing in the loan.  DCU is the highest 'credit union' in town on 
    auto loan rates. They probably would have tried to negotiate a higher 
    price had I not taken their financing (instead of lower).
    
    

    
    in other words we didn't talk about financing until their 2nd counter
    offer.
    
    started at $200, they countered $700, I countered $300, they countered
    $500 - if we take their 5.9 financing thru local credit union.  
    
    I looked like we were both working toward that $500 over number ANYWAY
    whether I took their financing or not. They get some, I get some it's
    still a good deal.