Conference unifix::sailing

    I voluntered to crew on Shamrock, but since I haven't heard anything
    I must but out of luck. Maybe it's because I didn't volunteer my $$$$
    also.
    
    This past weekend I spoke with a friend who's part of the crew. The 
    boats have some amazing stats. The Main weighs one ton; it's halyard
    is three part and then fed to a coffee grinder. And it's still a bear 
    to raise! In the old days there were no winches, just block, tackle,
    and gangs of bodies. The Main's headboard consists of two stainless
    steel plates, through bolted together to sandwich the sail. Several 
    turning blocks are also bolted to the headboard; I don't know what
    their function is.
    
    Anyone know where they will race?
    
    -Paul  

    I was sailing into Newport a couple of Sundays agon and saw one
    of the J's.  A VERY impressive sight.  There were also about 7
    12-meters out that day.  (No worthwhile wind, but good boat watching).
    I saw one strange looking beast.  It looked like a tops'l gaff cutter
    (if that makes any sense) -- a single mast carrying a gaff rig and
    topsail yards.  Looked like a pocket pirate ship.  Has anyone seen
    the boat I mean?
    
    -- Pete
    

    I think what you saw is the USS Providence. This is a fiberglass
    replica of the US navies first ship. In it's day (the US
    revolution) it was quite a tiger. It was converted to a warship
    by Rhode Islanders who then started sailing around blasting British
    ships. 
    
    -Paul

    See note 1256 for some info.
    
    I was in Newport this weekend. Hazy, foggy - but good breeze.
    we got a great look at Shamrock as we both came through the Dumplings
    together, abot 75 feet apart. Shamrock was reefed and only carrying
    one jib so we could sail with her.
    
    Ta -ta
    Mike
    LADY MARION

    
    
    I called the Museum of Boating for some info on the Labor Day Classic
    boat race, & ended up talking to the Shamrock skipper, who was manning
    the phones for a spell. He told me they would be sailing inshore
    on Saturday & off on  Sunday.
    
    THe inshore course was "between Prudence Island & Beavertail", &
    the offshore one was to be a Cup re-creation in the sound, off of
    Prodigy Reef (Brenton).  Should be a ball; line starts on the right.
    
    
    

    The Globe had an article on the boats yesterday, including the vital
    statistics of each.  Don't remember them all, but one really stuck in
    my mind.
    
    Spinnaker area for Shamrock is ... 12,500 square feet !!!
    
    Can you imagine broaching in THAT sucker?
    
    BTW - if you go strictly by the statistics, it would seem the Shamrock
    has the Endeavor outclassed.  Higher mast, longer boom, bigger sail
    plan, etc.  The Endeavor has a slightly longer waterline and a deeper
    keel, but otherwise it's the smaller of the two.
    
    Can't wait to see these monsters sailing.
    
    ... Bob
    

                                      
                                      
    "It is a well known fact that Americans are overpaid, over fed and
    over......."8^) so the saying went in WWII. What has this got to
    do with J Boats those who are still reading are asking.......Well
    another of the J Boat survivors is Valsheda ,who I have often seen
    out in the Solent, to be precise you see the canvas first....She
    earns her living as a charter boat at about 2,500 Pounds Sterling
    per day. So there is the challenge oops sorry opportunity for those
    former colonials who think they qualify for the well hackneyed WWII
    expression........Each year my wife's company's sports and social club
    do a trip on her(Valsheda ......)Last year we were no 2 on the waiting list
    this year we were on holiday.....maybe next year. Perhaps they should
    get all three boats together and race them, it would be a great
    deal more interesting than the Americas cup ......8^)
                                                
                                                
    Pete                                        
                                                
   PS overheard recently The difference between a racing man and a cruising
    man is the racing man has more money than sense and the cruising
    man just thinks he has.........                              
    
    
    

>    Spinnaker area for Shamrock is ... 12,500 square feet !!!
>    
>    Can you imagine broaching in THAT sucker?
    
     One thing to remember about J boats is that they don't go out if
     it's windy.
    
     When they used to sail in the Solent, they used to say "On race
    days, you take a lighted candle out to the end of Ryde pier. If
    it doesn't blow out, then there isn't enough wind, if it does, then
    there's too much"

Hmmmmm.
    
      I have my doubts about how much of a race the spectators will
      see.  If wooden 12 meters are any indication, the race will be
    more of a sailing demo than the go-for-broke racing we're accustomed
    to participating in.  Gleam and Northern Light don't sail in over
    10 knots.  When they do sail it's with a short hoist main and blade
    jib.  They never sail close hauled.  They don't have spinnakers
    in their inventories.
    
    At $10M each, the big J's will be treated like the museum pieces
    that they are despite the high profile skippers that have been employed
    for the event.  If anything breaks there aren't any bucks to fix
    them anymore.   The person who paid for the restoration no longer
    owns Shamrock and the Museum of Yachting is not heavily endowed.
    Shamrock and Endeavor, like their sister ship Valsheda, will have
    to pay their room and board in the charter biz to stay out of the
    junk yard.
    
    For these boats, more than any others, reality can never equal the
    fantasy that's been evoked about them.  It's been fifty years since
    the last ones sailed.  Few of those who ever saw them are still
    alive.  Very few films of them have ever been taken and they're very
    amatuerish.  Most of what we envision about them are fantasizations
    of the Rosenfield photos.  He, like many good photographers, had
    the knack for capturing those fleeting sublime moments on film and
    making the viewer think it was always like that.
    
    For those of us accustomed to on board videos of Dennis Conner bashing
    waves in Freemantle, this just ain't going to be the same.  An
    interesting curiosity maybe, but no more.
    
    - gene

    Gene, I don't share your view.  I know the wooden 12's don't do a lot
    of thrashing around but I believe this will be different.  The 12's are
    very fragile.  These J's have new rigs, complete sail inventories and
    big bucks behind them.  I believe that the museum is going to be
    reimbursed for any damage done.  
    
    The rules are going to be established well before the races to avoid
    any close calls.  Just too much risk of damage, but overall I believe
    the racing will be as spirited as the weather conditions allow.  I know
    some of the guys doing the crew work and it will be very hard to
    restrain those guys from pushing as hard as reasonable.  The biggest
    risk is very light wind combined with heavy chop.  Dull!
    
    Dave

     Although ENDEAVOUR is smaller than SHAMROCK, she was, in 1934,
    the fastest J boat ever built according to articles and observers.
    She beat the stuffing out of Vanderbuilts America's Cup yacht RAINBOW
    until she lost a stay in the third race, and her British crew seemed
    to fall apart. Some great sailing and tactics by the Americans saved
    the olde mug for the NYYC.
     In 1937 Vanderbuilt assummed the entire cost of building a J, and
    commisioned Olin J. Sparkman - Sparkman and Stephens - and these
    relatively unknowns designed RANGER, unquestionably the fastest
    J boat ever built. She was also the first defender not built at
    Hershoff  Yards at Bristol R.I., but rather at The Bath Iron Works
    in Maine. She was also the first to be built from models that were
    tank tested. Unfortunately she was scrapped for her steel in WWII.
    
    FYI - 1989 restored specs
    
    			SHAMROCK V		ENDEAVOR
    
    		LOA	130 ft			120 ft
    		LWL     87  ft			90 ft
    	       BEAM     22 ft			19 ft
              DRAFT	15 ft 8 in		17 ft
    MAST(fr. water)	165ft			155 ft
    	       BOOM	63ft(40in wide)		59 ft
     SPINNAKER POLE	51ft			45 ft 6 in
       WORKING SAIL	7,500 sq. ft		6,000 sq. ft
          SPINNAKER   	12,500 sq. ft		8,400 sq. ft
       DISPLACEMENT	160 tons		150 tons
    	      WHEEL	39 in variable,		twin 31 in variable,
    			feathering		feathering
    
    Regards,
    Mike
    
    
    

    Anybody got an idea where plans for the American J's may be
    available? I'd like to model one of them in a bottle.
    
    
    			Thanks,
    
    			Joe

    re .11
    
    Olin Stephens.
    
    And he cooperated with Starling Burgis (sp?) in the
    design of Ranger.  
    
    Endeavour's lighter weight may well make her the easy
    winner in Newport.  If it blows -- up to but not over 
    their limit -- Shamrock should have some top-speed
    advantage.

RE: .9,  

>>>  It's been fifty years since the last ones sailed.  Few of those who 
>>>  ever saw them are still alive.  

My father as a boy of around 10 was taken out of Marblehead by his father 
to watch the exhibition races held there for two years.  He says it was
pretty spectacular, even allowing for his young boy's imagination.  My
grandfather (who was in his 40's when he last saw them race) also used to
tell me about them, in the measured style of a life-long engineer -- and
he was pretty impressed himself! 

My father recalls they had two rules then which conspired to create an 
unusual spectacle.  One was that once each racer had its sail up and was 
self-powered (the tender having slipped away), it was illegal for the 
tender to come back alongside.  The other was that you had to finish the 
race with the same number of crew aboard as you started with.  They raced
with (only!) 30+ crew, I think it was, but the reality of a mainsail
weighing several tons was that it took more than 60 men to hoist her up. 
My father loved listening for the skipper's command and then watching
about 30 local strong young men jump over the side of the J-boat, to be
picked up by the tender or other yachts.  Among local teenagers, it was 
quite an honor to get an invitation to sail those that fraction of a mile 
aboard such a queen, and they vied mightily for the chance to do so.

Another tidbit comes from years ago when I boat-building in Gloucester.  
We shared a shop building with the C.B.Fisk organ builders, and one old 
Scandinavian man at Fisk, who's name I've sadly forgotten, used to delight 
me with stories of his youth as a teen working in Weymouth or Wollaston as 
the old Nevis (?) shipyard.  Several J-boats were rigged there with spars 
built on-site.  This old man had been rather small for his age of 13 or 
so, and thus got the job of checking the glue joints in the spars built 
for the J's -- on the inside!  He said he carried a lamp 150' inside 
Ranger's mainmast, first walking, then crawling, and finally wriggling 
like a salamander to get as far into it as he could.  When finished 
looking as far up the mast as possible, he hollered, and men gently pulled
him out by a rope tied to his ankle! 

RE: .11,  

With rated designs, such as J-boats and meter classes, there's usually a
trade-off between sail area and waterline length (among many other
somewhat more minor factors.)  Designers may opt for a longer waterline
length (potential speed) at the cost of sail area (potential power).  In
practice, a simplified analysis points to a smaller/shorter hull with more
sail area as winning in light airs when motive power is needed and wetted
surface is not, and points to a longer hull with less sail area when wave
formation becomes the limiting speed factor and extra sail area is no
longer is needed.  Thus Shamrock might win in light airs, and Endeavor in
heavier.  As to optimum wind ranges for each, it would take analysis by a
naval architect or competent designer to come up with those specifics.

J.

    re .11
    
    What is a "wheel, variable feathering"?
    
    - gene

    Gene, I think it refers to the prop.  Variable pitch and feathering. 
    One of them has twin screws, the other a single screw.
    
    Davef

    More Trivia
    
    SHAMROCK V is powered by a Caterpillar 3406  400 hp Diesel, and
    even has a 60 hp hydro retractable bow thruster.
    
    Please don't ask what all this means. I got the specs from a
    magezine called THE YACHT, published in Oxford, MD.
    301-226-5900
    
    I only bought the mag because it was next to CRUSING WORLD and 
    had a picture of a J on the cover.	
          

RE:.9 by STEREO::HO 

> I have my doubts about how much of a race the spectators will see.  If 
> wooden 12 meters are any indication, the race will be more of a sailing 
> demo than the go-for-broke racing we're accustomed to participating in.  
> Gleam and Northern Light don't sail in over 10 knots.  When they do sail 
> it's with a short hoist main and blade jib.  They never sail close hauled.  

I was in Newport anchored off the jazz festival this past weekend,  and 
Shamrock motored off her mooring,  raised a full sized main and ~70% Yankee
jib, and sailed close hauled out to the open ocean.  Really impressive.


Phil

    I was in Newport for the NOOD regatta last week, and saw both boats
    under sail.  They don't look to be taking it easy, both had up full
    main and headsails.  These are easily the most impressive looking
    sailboats I've ever seen.
    
    When I got to Newport, ENDEAVOR's mast was the most prominent thing on
    the skyline by a huge margin.  The Farr 40 sitting next to it looked
    like a dink with a little bit of stick for a mast by comparison (less
    than 1/2 the length).  I can easily believe somebody can climb inside
    that mast.  I saw this guy hanging about half way up and he looked like
    one of those little gumby dolls dangling up there.  The mast is easily
    3 feet thick, even up that high.
    
    Will be going down with Dean to watch this Friday.  Psyched ...
    
    ... Bob
    

    re .18 and fast maxis.
    
    Not that surprising -- especially if she lacks any modern
    equipment.  I'd like to think the Endeavour could give a 
    maxi a good upwind chase in the right breeze, but maybe not.
    Watching the maxis at the Rolex last year, their speed
    was astounding -- 10+ knots up the pike with a cloud of 
    mist for a wake!
    
    Does anyone have performance stats for the Js?

    When Ranger defended the Cup, she destroyed her competition. 
    So when you compare Shamrock or Endeavor to a maxi, they don't
    represent the fastest of the J class. Also consider that the
    J's have luxurious interiors.  I have
    read that Ranger was considered the fastest monohull ever built until
    New Zealand came along. There are some numbers available about a
    single windward leg where Ranger had amazing speed.
    
     About the designers of Ranger, I think it was Stevens and Burgess.
    They had an agreement where the individual contributions of each 
    designer toward the final design would never be made public. This was 
    to inspire objective thinking and brainstorming. For the design of
    the Star & Stripes 12 meter - Brit Chance, Dave Pedrick, and a
    third fellow had a similar agreement. Good approach, both Ranger and 
    Stars & Stripes turned out to be world beaters.
     
    Paul

    C'mon Paul!  "A third fellow?!"  Tell us who it is!  
    ;)
    
    Ranger wasn't THAT fast.  As with 12s, a few tenths of
    a knot make for a rout.
    
    BTW:  I have a book with the designs of every challenger 
    and defender up to and including some of the '87 twelves.  
    Cost a bundle, but a beautiful document!  Not something to 
    be photo-copied from, but if anyone is interested, I'll post 
    the address to write if you want to inquire about getting 
    a copy.  Limited edition -- 1000 I think -- so I don't know 
    if there are any left, but...
    

    Okay Dean, you've forced me to loose my modesty. I admit it - I was 
    the third designer. And all the ideas were mine - Pedrick and Chance 
    didn't do a damn thing. Dennis Conner just sat around drinking Pepsi and
    whinning. Don't tell anybody!
    
    -Paul     

RE: .21,  J-boats vs. contemporary maxis -- 

This is a really interesting question.  I don't believe there is a simple 
one-is-faster answer.

Upwind on a true beat (requiring tacks and all) I'd expect a top maxi to
win out mostly due to having a much more efficient rig and underbody, and
therefore able to go much higher than a top J, while not giving up too 
much speed through the water.

Downwind I'd vote again for the maxi, since she'll be more efficient in 
moderate breezes, and by the time it pipes up enough for the J's waterline 
length to be a real advantage, the maxi is probably surfing some anyway.  
Granted, in some light breeze situations, the height of the J's stick
coupled with an order of magnitude more sail area might prove invincible
even to the best-sailed maxi. 

BUT, on a close reach in moderate to heavy breezes I'd vote for the 
J-boat.  Close-windedness is no longer important, wetted area is less 
critical, and the combination of sail power and waterline length
would be very tough to beat in a boat only 2/3 as long.

Any comments or insightful critiques of this reasoning? 

J.

    Some back of the envelope ratios based on the data in a previous
    reply on the J's and my swags for a typical maxi's dimensions:
    
                              S'ROCK        E'DVR       MAXI
    LWL                         87            90         65
    BEAM                        22            19         20
    DRAFT                       16            17         10
    MAST                       165           155         95
    SAIL AREA                 7500          6000       2000
    DISPLACEMENT               160T          150T        25T
    
    SA/DISPL                    47            40         80
    higher means faster off the wind in a breeze
    
    SA/LWL                      86.2          66.7       30.8
    lower means faster upwind in a breeze
    
    WETTED SURFACE             3306           3240      1950
    SA/WS                        2.27          1.85       1.03
    higher means faster in light air
    
    I don't stand behind any of these numbers especially the maxi's
    since I really don't know how large or heavy they really are.  The
    wetted surface area is really rough, = (L X B0 + (D X L).
    
    Having disclaimed all that, it looks like the maxi will be faster
    in everything but light air.  But even that's suspect since the
    J's don't have overlapping headsails.  Many little jibs don't equal
    one large one.  That's probably the biggest design deficiency of
    the J's WRT more modern boats.  In the 30's the state of the art
    sail material was cotton.  It wasn't possible to build a jib that
    would fill the foretriangle that would hold its shape in anything
    but the lightest air.  Hence the quadrilateral jibs and inner
    staysails.  These were an attempt to reduce stretch by adding more
    points of support and reducing sail size.  Also the wooden masts
    couldn't take compression loads required to keep the headstay from
    sagging.  Even if they could, it's not for sure there was any way
    to generate the needed tension.  Remember, no hydraulics and titanium
    blocks in the 30's.
    
    Between each other, it looks like E'dvr will have the advantage
    upwind while S'rock will be fast downwind and in light air.  Newport
    tends to be light this time of year but on a closed course there's
    more upwind sailing than downwind.  Could be a tossup.  I personally
    have no faith whatever in the predictive ability of numbers.  A
    few weeks back several IOD's waited at the leeward mark of an ocean
    race for the C fleet to head back upwind.  After the bulk of the
    fleet rounded the mark, the IOD's amused themselves by passing boats
    to leeward.  IOD's are wooden boats built in the 1930's.
    
    - gene

    Lets also consider that on a close reach, a big overlapping genny on
    a Maxi is not efficient. There is no outboard point to trim the sail 
    properly so a large area near the clew is stalled. 
    
    On the other hand, the J has a double head rig which even today is the
    most efficient for tight reaching. The shorter cord lengths allows
    proper trim. It's true that two smaller headsails don't equal a genny - on 
    a reach they're better.
    
    Since racers don't reach much, it's a minor point.
    
    -Paul
     

    Yep.  Modern high aspect rigs are not good at close reaching.  Those
    tall skinny mains just don't have the area it takes.  A J's low
    aspect park avenue main should generate some serious horsepower.
    But I'm not sure I'd like to steer one on that point of sail.  Weather
    helm must be enormous.  
    
    For displacement boats the technology curve inverts for close reaching.
    Clipper ships > Gloucester schooners > J-boats > Maxi's.  I read
    an account of a transatlantic race in which a replica of the original
    America, a schooner, was able to pass modern IOR boats when the
    reach was too tight for a spinnaker.  We see a similar phenomenon
    locally when a freedom 40 comes out to race in the PHRF fleet. 
    It waltzes right by the big boats when the wind is right.
    
    - gene

    So folks,
    what is the latest schedule for the J races?
    Is the Bretton Reef ugly light near the start or finish of Sundays
    activity. I was told just to look for the fleet of spectator boats
    and join them, but what time????
    
    Hidden Valley, I'll be moored near you in Bristol for the rest of the
    season starting Sunday night. Look me up.
    
    This weekend. "Hope" will be watching the races if prospects are
    good for a good race (some wind). Otherwise look for me Saturday
    night in the general anchorage just off Ida Lewis.. stop & say
    hello.
    
    Well, when are we going to have a DEC Yach Club, or at least some
    burgee to identify us???????
    Don

    Saw the Js sparring on Friday.  It was immediately
    apparent that Shamrock is no match for Endeavour,
    but what a thrill to see them sailing together.  The
    scale of these boats leaves your sensibilites warped.
    Maxi boats look like 35 footers; 12-meter rigs hardly
    reach the first set of spreaders; when they're two 
    miles distant you can still tell whats happening.
    
    A breath from the past -- far more enticing, dignified, 
    and romantic than any of today's trumped-up commercial
    events.  Seeing the Js renews the vitality of the old 
    B&W photos that fired my childhood imagination.
    
    Thank you Elizabeth Meyers.

    Valsheda is for sale.......She apparantly has not found sufficiant
    charter work in the UK to pay her way. Enquiries to Camper and
    Nicholson's. The current thinking is that you have two of the Camper's
    boats in the US you will probably end up with a third. A sad day
    for us who sail the Solent and have enjoyed seeing Valsheda out
    there.
    
    Pete

    Has anyone heard a rumor about the J boats being in NY harbor
    towards the end of September?  Seems to me I read something
    about that somewhere.  Any dates would be appreciated!

    I found some performance numbers for the restored Endeavour. 
    
    On a beat:    20 knots of wind
                  30 degrees off the wind (true or apparent?)
                  12.5 knots boatspeed
    
    How does this compare with a maxi?
    
    -Paul