Conference unifix::sailing

I recommend you buy a used Hobie 16. I have no idea whether this is the
right boat for you, but after 1 season you'll probably know...

The Hobie 16 is very common, and you should have no trouble finding
several used ones for sale. Pay attention to the condition of the hulls,
particularly look for blistering. Also look for evidence of major hull
repairs.

If you look at several boats before you buy, you should be able to get a
good feel for features and condition vs. price before you make an offer.

If after a year or two you decide to get a different boat, you will be
able to sell the hobie easily, probably at close to what you paid for it.

Things that affect the value of a Hobie:

dual trapeze
multicolored sail
anodized spars
age of boat
sail condition
age and condition of trailer

--RS

P.S. I had a hobie 16 for one year. It turned out to be the wrong boat for
me, and I sold it a year after I bought it, for $150 less than I paid.
(I live on a lake, and the wind is too gusty for the Hobie. I switched
to an O'day Javelin sloop.) 

    
    I think the choice of "which catamaran" depends a lot on the kind
    of sailing you want to do.  Cats like the Hobies mentioned in 
    the previous reply are _good_ boats for their purpose, which is
    to go very fast.  They fly.  Do you want to fly?
    
    If going fast is what you want, look into a Hobie.  If you want
    something that basically putters around the water without requiring
    you to work very hard, there are other boats out there.  An example
    is the Aquacat from American Manufacturing (I think).  It's got
    a single sail (Hobies have a main and a jib), no boom (Hobies have
    one), and very little probability of tipping over unless you try
    (half the fun of a Hobie seems to be flying a hull as high as you
    can without going over, and you swim a lot as you learn).
    
    In a way this is a micro-discussion of one of the ongoing themes in
    this notesfile--crusing and racing.  You need to decide what you
    want to do.  I'd be interested in knowing what you choose--there
    are times when I'd rather have a cat than our monohull.  In fact,
    that was our original plan, but we wound up with a Capri 14.2 instead,
    but that's another story.....

    Ginger,
    More info on Hobies....
    If you want a catamaran that is easy to learn on, easily trailerable,
    doesn't weigh much, and will RARELY carry more than 2 people, then
    look into a Hobie 14. If you can handle a little more weight (around
    (@350lbs) try the Hobie 16. You can still find good Hobie 14's with
    a single main and no jib. The 16's will have both. Both are good
    boats to learn on and have fun. One of the positives about cats
    are their stability. You usually don't end up in the water unless
    you are really trying to get one of the pontoons in the air (flying
    the hull) or you jump off the boat. Any type of performance cat
    like the Hobie, prindle, etc can give you a fast, fun, wet ride.
    Cats can sail in less than 6 inches of water, so if you and a friend
    want to put a cooler full of lunch goodies on the trampoline (the
    fabric between the pontoons), take it to a secluded area and sail
    right up onto the beach, you can do it.  If you want to go fast,
    or lay down on the tramp to sun, you can do that. If you want a
    boat that can turn on a dime, get a monohull. You will sail the
    cat differently in several ways than if you buy a small monohull
    like a laser. Cats require you to allow backwinding of the jib to
    force the nose around in a stiff breeze. Monohhull boats don't.
    Minor example, but one to notice. 
    Cats allow you to clip into a trapeze and hang off the edge of the
    boat to keep it stable (and VERY fast) much like you would do when
    sitting on the rail of a large monohull. The big difference is,in
    a cat you are OVER the water, just not on the edge of a boat.
    If you decide a cat is what you want, pay attention to (.1). Some
    areas of importance to look for:
    1. Area in front of the tramp: About 1 to 2 feet in front of tramp
    frame some cats get lots of stress and older ones may flex. Push
    down on this area to see if it gives. It there is much give you
    may have fiberglass fatigue. You may notice on some hulls that
    thru-hull fittings have been placed here during a previous repair.
    2. Look for stress fractures where ever metal meets fiberglass..
    Back gudgeons (where dual tillers connect to hulls) can be loose.
    Check to see if they are properly sealed with silicon and look for
    signs of previous repair. On several cats, hobies included, theres
    plywood underneath the glass work in the back that the screws anchor
    into. If it had pulled out in the past and hasn't been properly
    repaired..interior rot may be a problem.
    3. Check that areas around drains in pontoons are good, as well
    as the front of the pontoons where the bridle screws into them.
    4. Check the flange where the bottom of the hulls meet the top for
    separation. This is another area that should be sealed with silicon.
    5. Pick up the front of the hulls and shake vigoursly. See if you
    can hear water logged flotation inside the hulls. If you do, think
    about someone else's cat. This means water is trapped inside the
    foam floatation in the hulls and will only slow you down.
    6. Check for wear in the "cup" that the mast sits in (if the mast
    is down(. The mast on a hobie is made to pivot on a nylon puck.
    Excessive wear means someone was lazy and used it without one for
    a long period of time.
    7. Check the trampoline for wear, particularly around the edges
    next to the metal 
    
    
    
    

    
    
    Why not rent before you buy? There must be several places on the
    cape where you could rent a Hobie cat and try it out. I find
    that renting is the best way of gaining experience sailing different
    kinds of boats.
    
    There is a magazine "Multihulls" which is published bi-monthly.
    Mostly covers larger craft but has information on all kinds of
    cats and trimarans.
    
    Bob
    

    Sorry to cut .3 off in mid sentence..I thought I was about to lose
    the link!
    Anyway , the rope in the last point is like a bolt rope, and is
    the only thing that keeps your fabric in the frame. If its bad,
    you may fall through in the least pleasant time.
    
    Finally, check the tackle for smooth action,sails for good battens
    and batten pockets and no holes. On a hobie, the main halyard has
    a steel barrel connected to it that fits into a L bracket at the
    top of the mast when the sail is raised. Make sure both barrels
    are there (one is for reefing) and the L bracket is tight.
    
    Cats are a fun and exciting boat , in the ocean or on a lake. I
    had both a hobie 14 and 16 and had years of fun with them. You can
    get a good 16 footer for around $800 - $1500 here in Texas. I'm
    not sure of your locale.  
    
    There is a good magazine to look into if your interested in Hobies.
    It's called the Hobie Hotline and is full of interesting articles
    on how to sail cats, how to tune them , care for them etc. If you
    can't find a copy at your local sailing store let me know and I
    will see if I have an old back issue with the address.
    
    Take your time to look. Decide if you are going to trailer this
    monster! It's easy, but if you say yes, look at the trailer that
    comes with the boat. See if $$$ will be needed to get your car ready
    to trailer, and where you will be taking your cat. They will go
    about anywhere. Look at several boats before deciding to cat or
    not to cat. It will allow you to see features on some that may not
    be on others as well as colors of sails and hulls. Let's face it,
    you want a cat you can be proud of!
    
    Good Luck!
    Robert

    You need to figure out what kind of sailing you want to do.
    I learned to sail on my Hobie 16, and if you want go fast 
    it's the perfect boat. But if you have plans of daysailing
    with 3 or more on board, or maybe kids, or if you want to
    be able to carry some extra gear (large cooler, fishing gear,
    picnic lunch) it gets real crowded on the tramp very quickly.
    
    Be forewarned, a Hobie is a dragster. The guy I bought my Hobie
    from was forced to sell it, by his wife! She took 1 ride and
    was too scared to get on it again. She was over-reacting, but the
    sensation of acceleration on a Hobie is something you have to
    experience for yourself. Hobies have a proven safety record,
    but if you want to have a relaxed, easy time out on the water,
    maybe you should look at a mono-hull.
    
    I think one of the best reasons to buy a Hobie is the racing.
    Hobies are the largest racing class in the world. Lot's of races
    to go to. They have expert, intermediate, and novice divisions
    for the 16, no novice class for the 18 usually.
    
    Don't buy a 14, you will outgrow it quickly, and there's not that
    many 14's around anymore so the racing is pretty thin compared to
    16's and 18's.
    
    Enjoy! 
    
    Jeff J.
    

RE: .3,

>>>    If you want a catamaran that is easy to learn on, easily trailerable,
>>>    doesn't weigh much, and will RARELY carry more than 2 people, then
>>>    look into a Hobie 14. 

True, but if you get a 14, be sure to find a competent sailor who can 
teach you how to tack the thing in various wind conditions.  Without a 
jib, they can be devilish to bring about, which is the main reason 
(advertising aside) they came out with the "Turbo 14" which added a tiny 
jib, mostly for backwinding in order to complete a tack.

RE: .4,

Any real Hobie dealer around New England (they'll be at the Feb 9-12, BTW) 
probably can direct you to a rental center, and/or lessons.  Unless you're 
already pretty familiar with sailing, it's probably an afternoon and money 
well-invested.

J.

RE: -.1,

>>>   ... (they'll be at the Feb 9-12, BTW)...

That's the Feb 9-12 Sailboat Show at the Trade Center.

J.

    Thanks so much people!  
    
    Re .3:  You really got me dreaming about summer.
    
    The hobiecat 16 sounds great!  I'm interested in the sport of it
    as well as the sun and fun of it.  And if I'm on water, I always travel
    light.  (Hmmmm??? Can you ski off it?....just kidding.  I saw it
    on a beer commercial and it looked pretty wild.)  
    
    Anyway, that sailboat show sounds like a good idea and I'll have
    to do some reading up on cats.
    
    Thanks,
    Ginger

    Boy did you get great response ! 
    
    Two unanticipated issues arose when I had a Tornado cat a few
    years ago.  First, it was wet, therefore cold, and therefore
    the sailing season was short. (I like sailing thru November).
    Second, drifting out with the tide in Boston Harbor after the wind
    died reminded me that an engine, (or oars), are sometimes quite
    convenient.
             
    A little more embarrassing but worth considering also, is that as
    a relative beginner the Tornado was too much for me to handle. 
    Hobie's are much more forgiving, and less fragile, in this area.
    
    Have a ball,
    
    Rick
    

    
    
        Hope it is not too late, I've been overseas, and on a *^%$ vacation
    in Aurba where they got rid of ALL the Hobie Cats for sailboards.
    Where is the world headed for.
    
        If ya want to try a Hobie 16 and you live in New England, I'll
    be glad to give you a demo. I ussally start about 2-3 weeks after
    the ice breaks, so you'll have to wait at least another 2 months.
    
        The 16 is the best all around Hobie. It is the most popular,
    which means getting parts is a snap. They have a large racing
    following which is nice, since most races have 3 classes for Novices,
    Intermediates, and Die Hard Racing. You meet a ton of people on Hobies,
    and most will surely help you. 
    
        I started 4 years ago, and have gotten pretty good at racing
    them. I use mine on small lakes, big lakes and the ocean. The 16
    is good for most people for the rig is simplier than an 18, it has
    no daggerboards, so you can hit submerged rocks or the beach without
    much problem. They can hold up to 5 people. I know of one DECie
    who shall remain unnamed who tried to fly a hull with that many
    people. He didn't fair too well.
    
        Hobies hold their value in New England pretty well. A good used
    one will be about 1500-2100 dollars including the trailer. Anything
    less and you have to question the person as to why the price is
    so low. Although any part can be easily replaced, a mast is $700
    dollars as are a new set of sails. If the boat has been maintained,
    you ussally can replace the marginal pieces (rudder cams, mainsheet,
    halyards) for about 150-200 dollars. 
    
       The 16 is a hot rod compared to monohulls, and in the hands of the 
    inexperienced, it can be dangerous. Look though these notes for some
    of the bizzare stories of inexperienced people getting into bad
    situtations.
     
    Over the years I have taught a lot of people some of the finer points
    or using these craft. The main thing is to show people how to set
    the boat up correctly, and how to handle the various points of
    sail and conditions. If someone spends the first couple of times
    with you to show you how to set up the boat, and what to expect,
    they are a blast. Also, never go out in more than 15 knts of wind
    until you have at least 50 hours piloting one. In gusts, they can
    become intense. 
    
       In used catamarans the things to check are:
    
    1. the sails. At $700 they are not cheap. check the bolt rope, and
    the batten pockets especially where they meet the mast. 
    
    2. check the bottom of the hulls. they will be worn down from dragging
    over sand, but they nothing should be worn away flat. Also check
    the ends of the rudders. If they are not the same length or shape,
    chances are someone hit something REAL hard. 
    
    3. With some friends, take the hulls and shake them. if you here
    a thud noise, the foam inserts that make the boat unsinkable are
    loose. This is ok if you plan to just sail, but it is not so good
    if you wish to race. Don't worry about water in the hulls. There
    are drain plugs in the back that you can easily remove the water
    from. If There is water, it is coming from either teh pilons, or
    the valve in the back. Ussally it is the former. A bit of silicone
    between the hulls and pylons will ussally get this seapage down
    to nothing. The water can also come though the vent in the pylon
    when someone was rather slow in righting a boat after flipping
    it.  
    
    4. check the id numbers on the back of each hull. If the numbers
    do not match, Best to ask why the hull had to be replaced. Also
    look for different color patchs in the bow area. This ussally 
    suggest a collision and subsiqent holing. The 16 is pretty strong
    in this area, while the hobie 18 has a way of being punched through.
    A professional can fix this better than new. An idiot can make the
    boat unsafe as the bow is what is holding the mast up.
    
    5. If the hulls are faded, don't worry about them. Especailly if they
    are a colored hull. You can always rub them out, or repaint them.
    
    6. check to see if the seam between the upper and lower parts of
    the hull are a red color. If so, it is a 87 or later boat. These
    are great because they are 10 lbs lighter because of a new higher
    grade expoxy.
    
    7. check to make sure all the halyards, trapese wires and hardware,
    tiller, and rachet parts are there and working . It saves hunting down 
    the owner later.
    
    8. check the trampoline for use. It can be faded, but watch out
    for rips. Although you can have a sail maker repair it, a well
    worn tramp needs replacement at $210 a side.
    
    The 14 is a simple boat, but it has a couple of problems.
    1. it is small and cannot take a lot of weight.
    2. In New England, it is almost dead with the introduction of the
       hobie 17 in regards to fleet racing
    3. The boat is so small it is extremely weight sensitive. you will
       not win a race if you weigh over 110 lbs.   
    4. Its length makes it hoby horse in choppy seas. As with monohulls,
    the longer the boat, the smoother the ride. Then again, once you
    learn to push a cat, you fly over the chop.
                                          
    the 18 is only for people who know what they are doing. It is heavy,
    complicated and very fast. Beginners need not apply unless they
    have a death wish.
    
    The 17 is a great single handed boat that is as simple as a 14,
    has wings to stay dry on, trappeses lines for going fast, and the
    newest technology. This is where all the single handed 14 racers
    have gone. The only thing is most are not parting with them used,
    and the sails are mylar, which makes them very flimsy compared to
    standard daycron sails.
    
    The 21 is a professional race boat and very hard to come by. It
    is very expensive, and from what friends say, worth it. Not for
    a beginner.
    
    the Nacra and Prindle catamarans are nice boats, but there are not
    as many of them around. The original designer of the Tornado has
    a 19 and a 21 out on the market. They are marketed through a 
    distributor in Ct. Price is about 4500 dollars. Easy set up, 
    but not many around as of yet.
    
    
       There are a bunch of DECies who sail Hobies. If you drop a line
    saying where you are from, I can also check the fleet 28 directory
    to see who lives down the street from you.
    
    
       A cat is a lot busier than a Laser, but once mastered, they can
    be a blast. If you are into high performance sailing in a trailable
    and inexpensive form, you will like catamarans.
    
    
    john
    

    Thanks John.  No you're not too late.  I still have yet to do a
    lot of looking.  Besides, how do you find a used cat in the winter?
    I haven't seen any advertisements yet.  I think I'll be attending
    a sailboat show this weekend at the trade center.  I'll hopefully
    pick up a lot of info.  
    
    Question, do you know where I can get a good wet suit at a good
    price?
    
    Ginger

    RE: .12
    
    	You might want to check about wetsuits in ATPS::WINDSURF.NOTE
    
    	Windsurfing shops usually carry a large variety of suits - a
    	few shops will be at the boat show this weekend , they may have
    	some decent deals on wetsuits...
    
    	re: .11
    		No more Hobies at Aruba? There were still a few around
    		when I was there in October! (Of course, I was only
    		interested in the sailboards!!)
    
    				Robert.

    
    Although I prefer Nacra and Prindle over Hobie I think the Hobie
    16 is the best bet for people getting interested in catamarans.
    There is a large supply of good, used Hobie 16s at reasonable prices
    and the market will be there if you ever decide to sell.
    
    The Hobie 16 is a little heavy but that seems a fair tradeoff when
    you consider how solid and stable the boat is - beaching it is no
    problem.  Someone else mentioned the fact that having no boards is
    a plus - you wont be able to point as high, but then again you don't
    worry about hitting the boards.  Since you are new to sailing cats
    and the fact that things happen quickly on cats, not having to raise
    the boards when coming in is a real plus.  We had one boat where
    the centerboard struck something and the owner had to pull the board
    out the bottom of the hull & do some major repairs.
    
    As far as leaning to sail cats with little/no experience I'll go
    along with some earlier advice - have someone who sails cats take
    you out a few times and avoid winds over 15 until you are really
    comfortable with the boat.  I think the most important thing to
    remember about sailing catamarans is how quickly they respond to
    even the slightest puff - you need to be ready to react as things
    happen so quickly.  If fast is what you want then buy the 16 and
    have a great time, just sail within your confort range.  Don't worry
    about it being too much boat - a few years ago my wife and I bought a 
    Tornado and learned to sail on it.  We survived (a few stories) and
    have had a great time.
    
    Have fun
    Bob

    I had a Hobie 16 for about 10 years.  I was invited to sail on one
    once, and then went out and bought my own.  With almost no sailing
    experience and no further help, learned to rig and sail it myself.
    It really isn't too hard to master, they look more intimidating
    then they are.
    
    I liked it because it was; rugged, fast, reliable, simple, roomy,
    pretty, sails in shallow water, and most of all FUN.  There are
    faster cats, but they tend to be fragile, unforgiving, complicated,
    and expensive, all the things racers love but get in the way of
    easy recreation.  There are cheaper cats, they are sometimes a bit
    simpler but mostly just give you less of what you are buying it
    for.
    
    An observation on the speed, one day I was out in a large lake in a
    small sailboat.  I found I was getting very nervous even though
    we were quite close to shore.  Since I never felt that way in my
    Hobie, I started wondering why.  I finally decided that the speed
    of the Hobie tends to shrink distances.  Although the far shore
    of that lake was almost out of site, I could cross it in 15-20 min
    on the Hobie.  That little boat would take literally all day to
    cross over and back, and it would be an adventure equivalent to
    an Atlantic crossing.  The Hobie won't break, won't sink, and if
    it dumps it can be righted easily.  Combined with the speed, it
    gives you confidence and broadens your horizons greatly.           
    
    In light air (5-10), I enjoyed hours of lazy cruising with my dog or my
    wife or both.  In very light air, forget it, it wont sail.  In heavy
    air, a real handfull, more than I generally wanted.  In 10-15 mph
    wind you can't beat it.
             
    Rick,

    RE.12
    
        The greatest deals in wetsuits are not here. We used to order
    our wetsuits out of sports shop in Scotland. $85 a set, good
    workmanship, and prompt delivery. The dollar having fallen so
    much, it is the great deal any more.
    
         If you wait till June/July, you can get great deals on Rip
    Curls in Australia. It's making contacts that is tough.
    
        The want ads are a great place to find a wetsuit. Just
    remember, NO DIVER SUITS. you do not know grief until you have
    spent a 70 degree day in a black tight wetsuit with a stanless
    steel snap at the bottom!
    
         You may check with SSI or Murrays (numbers are in one of the
    catamaran notes) right now. You will probably get 10-15% off.
    If you join a local fleet, you can ussally get a discount from
    the local dealer.
    
         Finally, it the windboard shops right now. Get last years model
    and save some bucks. Just make sure it fits, and the knees look
    tough. If not, buy so basketball kneepads.
    
         As for boats, check the newpapers, the want ads, and call some
    of the local dealers. (if you send me a mail, I'll give you a 
    couple of leads on the better ones to call).
    
         Only 7 weeks to go!!!!
    
    
         john

    the hobie 16 is the most unstable cat of the lot, I would suggest
    a nacra 5.8 or 6.0 (that is if you want the best ride from a cat
    under 20 ft.) 
    
    an older 5.8 would be heavy, but a good learning experience.  watch
    out for vertical ripples on the outside of the hulls (signs of age
    from foam core construction).  the 6.0 is by far the best small
    cat available (in my humble opinion).
    
    					John Papa

    Input from a non-noting multi-hull friend ...
    
    The older nacra 5.8's did not have foam core. They were glass only and
    as such could sink when holed.  The 6.0 is a real nice boat but also
    much more of a handful to single hand than the 5.8.
     
    Carl

    Quick question on Hobie trailers-
    What size hitch ball would have been used on a typical Hobie trailer
    5-8 years ago? I have a 2", but am concerned that these small trailers
    might have used 1 7/8" or less. I'm going to pick up a used rig this 
    weekend and the owner doesn't know and I forgot to check. This is a 16'
    boat.
    
    thanks in advance,
    kim
    

    Re .19>
    	I would guess that it would be a 1 7/8" ball. I have a trailer
    rated at 650# and it has a 1 7/8. I may be wrong but I think 2" balls
    are required for rigs rated at 2,000# or more.
    Regards,
    Paul

    RE .19&.20
    I believe the cutoff is 1500lbs. My understanding is that this is the 
    demarcation between class 1 and class 2.
    
    I am confident that the trailer would have a 1 7/8 inch hitch.
    
    Our old trailer (17ft boat) was rated at 1200 and had a 1 and 7/8ths.
    Our new trailer (22ft boat) is rated at 3100 and has a 2 inch hitch.
    
    Good luck with the acquisition.
    Fred
    

    A class I hitch is up to 2000 lbs gross trailer weight and 200 lbs
    tongue weight ot the vehicle maker's specification - whichever is
    lower.
    
    A Class II hitch is up to 3500 lbs gtw and 350 lbs tongue weight.
    
    Ball sizes start at 1 7/8" and increase in 1/8 " increments. - The
    diameter and GTW rating are normally stamped on the ball.
    Larger balls have larger diameter threaded shanks.
    
    (Above is from Chapman's 56th ed.)
    
    In my experience, 1 7/8" balls are commonly rated for 2000#
    
    Bill
    

    A hitch ball costs less than $5 at most auto supply shops.  Many small
    trailers have couplers that will accomodate both a 1 7/8 and 2" inch
    balls.  I'd try it and see if what I already had works.
    
    When I bought my hitch I also bought three balls to accomodate any size
    coupler.  At regattas I've occasionally had to jockey other trailers
    around to get at my own.  Having the three balls has come in handy.
    
    Trailers manufacturers aren't all too careful about observing the DOT
    weight regs.  My small trailer will accomodate a 2" ball.  My 6000 lb
    rated Etchells trailer takes only a 1 7/8".
    
    - gene
    

I am very impressed by the extent of the knowledge found in this 
conference.  I have read all I could found in relation with what
I am trying to do.  I still have a puzzle to resolve.

Here it goes...

First some facts

That will be my first cat or sailboat as a matter of fact
I have a house on a lake meaning that I do not need to trailer and rig 
 the cat every weekend
Brome lake's depth (Eastern townships in Canada) does not go over 40 feet
I have tried a cat once and enjoyed it
I have tried a monohul (45 footer for one week on Champlain and a 20 footer 
 occasionnally, my brother-in-law has his in front of my house on the lake) 
I windsurf extensively
I weight 130 pounds
My wife is not too keen about water sports (read will not be part of the crew)
I am not effraid to get wet (windsurfer do get wet a lot) and still not 
 looking for confort.  If I want confort I go out in the 20 footer.

My reasoning for chosing a cat

After a while windsurfing in winds under 15 mph becomes boring and from
what I read there's some real pleasure sailing a cat in such winds.
So when the wind will be under 15 mph I would take the cat out and
in higher winds I would take the board out (and maybe someday the cat).  
Also, I feed on adrenaline and I believe that a monohul could 
not generate enough of it except maybe in strong winds. 

A dead end

From the information I have gattered here the Hobie 16 seems to be a 
cat that a beginner could have fun with for a while before outgrowing it.
It also seems to be fairly easy to find a used one. I am also open to
other brands (NACRA/Prindle Tornado?) as long as it's a quality product.

Now because of the jib you need a crew of two for manoeuver but on the 
other hand I also read that there is a single handed kit that can be bought.
Fine for that, now what about the weight problem that the crew of two
help resolve.  If I remember well for the 16 it needs something like 
250-285 pounds.  I do not want to depend on others to go out, it's
enough that you have to depend on good winds being there on the 
week ends.

I have read a little on the H17 that was designed to be single handed
Is it really that bad to tack with a cat with no jib?
Will the 17 be as much fun and forgiving than the 16 would?

Am I in a dead end or am I only missing information?


Michel who would like to enjoy a cat but has no weight and no crew.

    
       The hobie 16 can be single handed. it is lots of fun. You just have to
    think things out a bit ahead of time, like tacking. You just loosen up
    the jib a bit and let the main traveler out a bit. I have a friend you
    has single handed by me on a 16 while I had crew trapped from a wing in
    25 knt winds and 4-6 ft seas. He is no beginner, but once you learn to
    sail the boat, the 16 isn't that bad. When you single hand it, it is
    more lively, but that minimizes the drag that ussally flips you
    anyways.
    
       As for righting, a big person can pop a 16. For the lighter types
    there are either side stay extenders (appx 40 buck us) or a bucket-up
    system. A bucket-up system is a large bag you take over the side with
    you. you scoop up some water and sling it from you shouder, you have
    now added 80 lbs. The fancier ones you a pulley setup. I know of a 14
    year old girl who singlehanded all summer with one. 
    
        the 17 is a much nicer boat. Everyone knows that. Because of this,
    they are a lot more expense used. You have the wing to keep you dry,
    it points like a monohull, it has centerboards that can pop out of
    your way if you hit something in the water. You will not tire of this
    boat. Most the old time hobie catters move to this boat once they have
    alienated all their crew/friends.
    
        For rigging, the 17 wins as you can leave the boat tied to a tree
    in the yard. just hoist the main, quick pin the outhaul, and away you
    go. On the 16, you need to spend a couple extra minutes setting the
    jib. a 16 without a jib is a bitch to tack, so you have to put it on.
    
        Try going to a local regetta. You can talk to owners and maybe even
    test drive one of each to see which you like better.
    
        john

    It happened! I went on my first cat sail last week, out of Marblehead.
    It was a 35 foot cruising/racing cat. We did wind speed for the first
    part of the day, about 8 knots.  Later the wind freshened, and behold
    an unbelievable 19 knots!
    
    I am a longtime monohull sailor.  Needless to say I was overwhelmed
    when we broke 12 knots, and when we hit 19 I could feel the adrenaline
    pumpling like never before in sailing. The following morning in the
    shower I am asking myself how I could buy a cat.
    
    My question, though, has to  do with what other kinds of cats are
    available in the 21-25 foot range that would accommodate a family.
    My older sons I could take on a Hobie, but for smaller children they
    would bounce right off the trampoline.  So, are there any cat
    equivalents to the "pocket cruiser" of monohull fame.
    
    Paul
    
    PS Even more remarkable was the lack of nausea that I usually get when
    I go below.  
    

    Paul
    
        get a copy of Multi-hull there are all kinds of them in there.
    
       You didn't say a price. The old Stilleto can be had. It is 24 foot,
    expands on it's trailer, and has room below.
    
       A Hobie 21 is fun, but it is a bear to put together (ie heavy mast) and
    has a lot of lines as it is a go fast racer. You can minimize the
    lines, but when the wind kicks up, it really is not place to be with
    small children. 
    
       With a small family, you may wish to look at some tri-marans. Fast,
    lots of room, and minimal lean.
    
        john

    The F27 has been catching on quickly and there are a few of them around
    for sale.  Upright, quick, a lot of "deck" space but the hull is very
    small and reportedly cramped for more than two people.  There is an F24
    coming out this year also if you want something a little smaller.  
    
    Brian

    This reply is being placed for a non-noting friend - an avid multi-hull
    person who currently owns a Stiletto 23.
    
    ------------------ Start of included text ---------------------------
    
    What kind of a cat was it that Paul Rondina went out on?
    
    Stilleto made 3 boats, a 23, a 27, and a 30.  The 23 is very similar
    to a Hobie 21 with larger displacement hulls and tramps fore and aft. 
    There's storage room in the hulls but no real room down below.  The 27
    is probably the boat John K is thinking of.
    
    The modern equivalent of the pocket cruiser is the F27 or F24.  Very
    popular boats right now.  I'm partial to the Drangonfly a ~26 foot tri
    similar to the F27 but with a better (IMO) mechanism for folding the
    amas for docking or trailering.
    
    ------------------- End of included text ----------------------------

Paul,

First of all, welcome to NEMA!  I think that was your name I saw in the 
"new members" column.  And welcome to those addicted to speed-induced 
adrenalin-under-sail.  ;-)

My picks for your size range (which is the range I keep looking at
seriously) are four or five right now: 
					F-27
					F-24
					Dragonfly 800
					Somersault
					Upstart

1)  F-27 tri is leader of the pack in terms of sales success.  Excellent 
resale (unique among multis, it seems), based largely upon hitting the 
market squarely in a soft spot (cruise 2-4, trailerable, ~$65K new) and 
also the particularly well-engineered and constructed hulls.  Design 
leaves a few things lacking, IMHO.

2)  F-24 tri has all the advantages of the F-27, except no aft cabin and
about half the price new.  Just introduced, so now used market is yet
established, but I suspect they'll be a bigger success than the 27. BTW,
Corsair Marine (the builder) has just opened its first factory-owned
dealer/distributor here on the East Coast, on Cape Cod.  Both boats have a
very high level of finish. 

3)  The Dragonfly 800 is somewhat faster than the F-27 (lighter, more 
sail, less wetted surface), but basically similar.  26' tri, single cabin,
swing-wings instead of Corsair's folding wings (keeps only your bottom
paint wet when folded, a definite plus.)  An intriguing option is their
tall rig, with which it is a screamer if you're willing to fuss with it. 
Nearest dealer is in CT.  OK finish, but not great.

4)  The Somersault is a Newick design.  26' tri, idiocyncratic,
funny-looking to some (including me, and I like Newick's work generally),
but probably the most practical interior if cruising is important --
certainly the largest cabin of all these.  Well-built, but less finished
that others in her class.  Demountable amas; everything can fit on a
legal-width trailer, though not as simply as the previous tris.  Sold
directly by the builder in Chicago. 

5)  Most intriguing of the lot (again IMHO) is the Upstart, with prototype 
still to be completed by Bill Murphy, the Somersault builder.  This is a
30' Newick design, a very high perf cruiser on the lines of Ocean Surfer
(Newick's CSTAR Class III winner last time), very light, very strong, and
aimed directly at being able to win Class V in future TA races. 
Demountable, wingmast, kevlar/carbon fiber, etc.  Though still not fully 
realized, this boat will have wonderful accommodations in two cabins plus 
convertible center cockpit, all cleverly fit into a very sleek hull. If
the word "practical" has any relevance to large sailboats, then this is my
first choice among these practical alternatives (i.e., not 50' and
>$350K....) 

If I had to make a decision among these today, I'd go for the F-24.  It's 
the only one I haven't seen in detail (none available till this month), 
but the size, price, performance and expected resale all are seductive.  
As is the giant-killer performance!

Drop me a note or post a reply if you'd like contact addresses for any or 
all of these builders and dealers.

J.

    Thanks for those who responded to my original question about finding a
    multi hull "family cruiser" in the 22-27 foot range.  I am only in the
    fact finding mode for right now.  From the replies most people advised
    me to consider tris.  Does that mean a "family/pocket cruiser" cat does
    not exist?  Or, is that a tri would make more sense?
    
    Also, what does ama mean/stand for.  And can anyone give me the address
    of Multi Hull Magazine.
    
    To answer someone's question: I had my first cat sail on Tektron 35,
    which was made in Canada and is a prototype (Hull #1).  Says the
    brochure:  "One of the aims of this new design was to produce a boat
    with comfortable living accommodation space with as little sacrifice as
    possible to sailing performance, windward ability, and seakeeping
    qualities.  It was designed by John Shuttleworth.  For NEMA members I
    it was Ted Grossbart's "Rosebud", which he said has hit top speeds of
    22 knts.  
    
    Paul
    

>>>  From the replies most people advised me to consider tris.  Does that
>>>  mean a "family/pocket cruiser" cat does not exist?  Or, is that a tri
>>>  would make more sense? 
    
2 things to consider:

1)  Generally, multis in the size range you're looking at have a space
problem.  One larger central hull on a tri usually has a more useful total
interior space than does either of two hulls on a cat.  While the cat may
have more total interior volume, you'll have to decide which you like
best.  The double berth on a 26 tri may be only 45" wide; but on a cat,
maybe only 36".  Compare the tris I mentioned with Seawind, Stiletto, etc,
and you'll see for yourself.  Also, with living area split, one either has
to set up a tent over the trampoline/deck, or brave the elements to go
from one side to the other.  Also, you can sit in a single bigger cockpit
with seats, rather than slithering across the tramp most of the time:
better weather protection.  It's really personal preference.

2)  Most people agree than cats are faster than tris reaching and tris are 
more weatherly (sail closer to the wind) than cats for a given size, disp, 
SA, etc.  2 anecdotal examples:  A) In a Condor 40 (42', a rather heavy
"performance cruiser" tri) we've sailed even with a Swan 55 beating upwind
in 20+ kts in a race in Delaware Bay, matching them on heading and speed
for 20 min we bore off and put them astern.  A McGregor 36 near us fell
off to keep moving, unable to point as high.  B) Based on my limited
observations in NEMA, the 26' Dragonfly would gain to windward, then the
26' Cornish Meadow (CSTAR Class V cat) would easily overtake once the
reacher could be flown.  For plain old fast cruisin', give me
weatherliness over an additional 10% (even 20%) speed on a reach anyday;
you're already moving faster than 95% of what's out there under sail! 

>>>  Also, what does ama mean/stand for.  

Polynesian term for the outer hull in a tri.  (Vaka for main hull, aka for
crossbeam; these terms aren't used much anymore these days.) 

>>>  And can anyone give me the address of Multi Hull Magazine. 
    
	Multihulls Magazine
	421 Hancock St
	N. Quincy, MA 02171
	$18/year
	(IMHO, keep your b.s. detector on as you encounter the 
	 editor/publisher's views and style.  Otherwise, it's great.)

>>>  Tektron 35,

Shuttleworth is a leader in 4th generation multihull design.  Tektrons are
fast, seaworthy when sailed intelligently, and expensive. 

J.

    The problem with the cat is it's hard to trailer a big one. With the
    avg width = 1/2 the length anything past 20 ft needs to be pulled
    apart. They make trailers for this with extending crossbars, but they
    are expense and are a lot of work to set up. The fold up outriggers on
    trailerable tri-s are really getting to be well engineered.
    
    Don't sell the Tris short, they are more comfortable, and the speed is
    still quick enough to get your blood flowing! If not, just fly some
    more sail  ;>)
    
    john
    

    For cat fans, Dick Newick, designer of lots of offshore multihulls-
    among them MOXIE- will be the speaker at the December 10 meeting of the
    TSCA at the Peabody Museum in Salem MA. He will be speaking as a rep of
    the Amateur Yacht Research Society.
    
    See my note under clubs for more specifics and directions. All TSCA
    meetings are open to anyone and free.

- 1) On one hull about a foot in front of the tramp pillar
I have what was called in .3 fiberglass fatigue.  When
I press there it gives.  Is there a way to 
repair/strengthen that area?

- 2) I was planning to install on the hulls those
holes with a screw-on cover to store things in the hulls.
	a- Is that going to weaken the hulls?  
	b- Is it class legal?
	c- Where on the hull should I install that?

Thanks for any pointer,

Michel

    re .35
    
     Michel
    
        You have a trashed bulkhead. There is an article in one of the old
    editions of Hobie Hotline of how to fix this including templates. I will 
    see if I still have it at home. You basically cut a piece of small piece 
    of marine plywood to the shape of the template. You then attach it to the 
    pylon, and then glass it to the the inside portions of the hull. This is 
    quite common on older Hobie 16s and is caused by the pylon flex. That's 
    why all the newer Hobies (18s, 20s, 17, 21s) have the crossbars lay across
    the hull for attachment. 
    
        To fix it you need to cut a hole to get in there. Rather than try
    to match the anti-skid surface again, the easiest method is to install
    a 9" port hole. Yes they are class legal. The trick on the 16 is to buy
    a port hole for a curved surface rather than a flat one, and use plenty
    of quality silcone for the bedding. Hobie sells the porthole for around
    $30. You can get it in any large marine store for about $8-9 , but you
    have to buy your own bolts.
    
       If you are good with a jig saw, and fibreglas, you can effect the
    repair for less than $25. A dealer or a boat yard can do this for you
    if you feel you are not up to it.
    
    	When you put the port hole in, a neat trick I do is drill a small
    hole and thru bolt a 3/4 inch loop to the bottom. That way you can
    stick a nylon bag into the hull and attach it to the cover via the
    loop. Makes finding your lunch much easier after a day of hull flying,
    pitch poling, and other general stunts!
    
        Yet another trick is to buy a second cover, cut a hole in the middle 
    and marine tex a small compass into it. It will be stronger than the port
    hole, and the compass is out of the way. Don't forget to add another
    loop below this one too.
    
       When looking at a used 16, if you see a port hole, look inside for a
    pylon bulkhead repair. If there is one aft, look to see if the back of
    the hull had been repaired (ie either destroyed, or the rudder screws 
    were ripped from the hull because someone didn't maintain the rudder
    cam/tensioner assembly, and then hit something at speed).
    
        john                                                

for the information.  If you find the article I guess
you will faxit so here's my fax number DTN 632-3788.

I have a friend that works in fiberglass for a living
and I am a reasonable "handy man" so to the both of
us we most likely can do what you describe.

The section about the second cover with the compass 
is not so clear to me, I will take that discussion 
offline through mail if you don't mind.

On another topic, do you know if the two last numbers 
of the serial number represent the year of make on 
a H16?

Michel

    The last two digits are usually the year of sale, not manufacture.  
    When hulls are replaced under warranty, they receive the original year
    as the last two digits.
    
       Jeff

    re .37
    
     Michel
    
        I went through my back copies till mid 1988 and could not find it,
    but then I am missing a couple of issues. You may wish to check with 
    some of your local fleet members in Montreal. I am pretty sure it was
    in the past year and a half, so you only need to check the last 8
    issues.
    
        You may also check the catamaran books, one of them I remember has
    the gory details on this, along with the template.  I think it is one
    of the phil berman's manuals. A look for the hobie 16 performance
    manual from this author could be fruitful.
    
       john
    "still blurry-eyed from watching back to back Mutiny on the Bounty 
    / The Defiant movies".  

re .39 I was considering buying that very book, now you have 
given me a more than valid reason to do that.

re .38 Thanks for the info. My last two digits are 
76 meaning that it was sold to the original owner in 1976

Michel

Re .36

Jonh,

When I look in the unavoidable Murrays catalogue they
mention that the maximum size for a H-16's port hole
 is 5".  Is that limitation du to the stock they have
or is it because a bigger port hole would weaken the
hull to a dangerous point?

By the way I bought from Murrays the H-16 Perf man
and I could not find inside the description of the 
bulkhead repair.  I am going to call Hobie directly 
to get a copy of the Hobie Hotline describing it.

Strangely the copy of the H16 Perf man I received was 
in fact a real photocopy of the original book and not the 
book itself.  Maybe it has not been reprinted in it's
original form since.  It has a lot of good info anyway.

Thanks,

Michel.

    Michel
    
       Sounds like that will fix the "soft spot", but what about the
    cause? Is the pylon loose? if so, will it delaminate your fix in
    due time yes?
    
       I have been looking for that article on pylon repairs, but have
    not been able to find it so far. In it it talked about building 
    bulkhead inside the hull and then running screws through it into
    the pylon. Does the plyon have any play in it?
    
      john

I can't tell now because the hulls are under a foot of
snow.  The technical contact at Hobie Hotline told me
that the possible reason for the soft spot was that 
the former owner was most likely always getting off
the cat putting his foot on that spot...  Your approach
to the cause seems more probable.  After I check my pilon 
I will call back with that question.

Thanks,

Michel.

Now the snow is all gone and I could check the pilons
they are ok.

I evaluated the size of the soft spot and was surprised
to see that it was so large: 18" long by 10" wide with
between 1/4" and 1/2" of play of the surface layer.

A local fiberglass repairman expressed some concern
that the thickness of the resin I would have to inject
to fill the gap (18" x 10" x 1/2") would create so
much heat while curing that it would melt the foam.
That would only increase the problem instead of solving
it.

What do you think?

Michel. 

    
    Places in the New England 100 catamaran race are still available.
    
    The New England 100 is a point to point handicap race patterned after
    the World 1000.  It is a two day event, 10-11 July.  It is open to
    catamarans in the 16-21 foot range, as well as a big boat class.  
    
    The race starts in New London, Conn. and finishes the first day in
    Jamestown, RI.  Racing the second day is from Jamestown to New Bedford,
    MA.  Camping is available at New London and Jamestown.
                                                               
    For further information contact Dave or Pat Lussier at (401) 624-6310
    as soon as possible.  I can also provide some general information.
    
       Jeff Duncan
    
    

    When I lived in Florida, we purchased a used Aquacat and sailed
    it year round.  Sailing the intracoastal waters in 20+ knot winds 
    was a real thrill.  While the Aquacat is not a speed demon like Hobies 
    or Prindles, it is very stable and we never tipped - even in winds above 
    30 knots.  It feels very safe.  We did see lots of Hobies - hull side up.
    
    The Aquacat is a nice family boat - you can sail 4 adults plus a
    cooler.  I was able to setup and sail it solo too.  The drawback 
    is that it is a barge in winds under 15 knots.  That's when you get
    out your sailboard with 7+ sq meter sail.