Conference trucks::football;1

So, are we all raring to go then?

Oh, btw, this isn't meant to be a predictions topic - this is reserved for the 
high level of discussion and debate about the relative merits of each team 
that we're used to. And why Scotland are crap.

grahame

The new Swiss manager (Artur Jorge) has got off to a stonking start with the
fans by leaving both Alain Sutter and Adrian Knup out of his squad. There have
been demonstrations at training, newspaper editorials, wailing and gnashing of
teeth, quotes like "I'll never play for him again" (easily answered), and now
the Swiss FA have imposed a news blackout while they sulk. 

And I thought it might be different here . . .

g

    ...and to add to that the prospect of England fielding a reserve team
    due to the players having a drink and larking about in a Hong Kong
    club. Now the tabloid press wants the guilty players kicked out of the 
    tournement. Thats those who dared to enjoy themselves.....the drunken
    yobs, drinking lager on your birthday and getting other players to join
    in, and then smiling for photo's......they are a disgrace.
    
    Dave...
    
    
     

Well done, Grahame, for starting the topic off.
    
>And I thought it might be different here . . .
    
    I think it's like that everywhere. The fans here in Italy are still
    raging against Sacchi for leaving out Vialli, Signori, Baggio and
    Benarrivo (although I think there was a case for leaving out each of
    them). You can imagine what people were saying when Italy were 2-0 down
    to Belgium after 10 minutes of the friendly on Wednesday night!
    
    No Knup, eh? Although England aren't exactly setting the world alight
    in attack, we don't seem to let many in...and Knup is one of the few 
    players to have found the net against England in the last 12 months.
    
    Dom

    The Tam o'Shanter pub in Ayr will be giving out a free pint to everyone 
    there for every goal that Scotland scores. What are my chances of
    getting drunk for free?...
    
    Ray....

    What are my chances of a free flight up there?
    
    			Stretch.

    Stretch,
    
    I don't think that it would be a good idea for an English gentleman
    like yourself to be anywhere near Scotland on the 15th....
    
    Ray....

    >I don't think that it would be a good idea for an English gentleman
    >like yourself to be anywhere near Scotland on the 15th....
    
    Especially in a pub full of sober Scotsmen....
    
    Dom

    I reckon the rest of the group are quaking in their boots after
    England showed the 'Hong Kong Golden Showers' what it was all about.
    They'll be looking at the team and see the names of Howey, Southgate
    and Gary Neville in the defence and they'll cry - "But where, where
    or where, is England's weak spot?".
    
    As for Scotland, well I think they're biggest problem is manager 
    Craig Brown as he appears to have lost it, considering his comments
    after yesterdays defeat against Columbia.
    
    "Columbia in Miami, is virtually an away fixture" & "We did better 
     against them than England". 
    
    Andy 
    
    
    
    
    
    

Switzerland completed their 'warm-up' by losing at home to the Czech Republic 
on Saturday (1-2 for you Predictions followers). The manager had to be 
escorted out of the back gate to the stadium just before midnight to avoid the 
lynch mob.

Comments could be summarised as "the attack and midfield were weak, and two
defensive mistakes gave them the goals". 

Looks like odds-on a 0-0 on Saturday, and a huge English chorus of "But we 
drew the first game 0-0 in 1966."

grahame

    The second Czech Republic goal was excellent.. it whistled into the
    back of the net.... the Swiss did look poor from the highlights but my
    money is also on a 0-0 draw...
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Rick.

I would just like to add that I...

The Impartial Celt...

am supporting "England" in this tournament.

C'mon Engerlanddddddddddd !!!!!!!

    Don't believe him, lads...it's gotta be a trick!
    
    Dom

    Off the IRN page.......
    
    A police dog is getting a pat on the head for helping Scotland's 
    footballers out of a pickle over their kit. 
                     
    More than 20 bags of Euro '96 kit were taken from a van
    belonging to  manufacturers Umbro outside Scotland's
    Stratford-upon-Avon base last night. 
                     
    The outfits were later sniffed out in nearby woods in
    an uncanny throwback to 1966, when a mongrel called Pickles found
    the missing World Cup.  
    
    
    
    				Stretch.
    
    P.S Small Trivia question - Anyone know what happened to Pickles?  

    and also on IRN.....
    
    Top Dutch defender Frank de Boer looks certain to miss Euro 96 after
    aggravating an ankle injury in a fitness test. 
                     
    De Boere was injured playing for his club Ajax (pron:Ayax) in the
    European Cup Final two weeks ago. 
                     
    He had been hoping to prove his fitness against the Republic Of Ireland
    in Holland's final warm-up match tonight.
    
    
    			Stretch.

The "Golden Rickshaw" Salford - Beef Chow Mein ?

    Stuffed wasn't he. At Wembley now or somewhere.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    What I meant was, how did he end up meeting his maker? It was not the
    way you expect a "legend" (?) to end his days!
    
    
    
                     Stretch.
    

    >Anyone know what happened to Pickles?

    I hear Mr Branston bought him and made him into a relish that you can
    put on cheese sandwiches....

    Cheers,

    	Rick

    Still no injuries in the England camp? I was expecting messrs.
    Gascoigne, Shearer, Anderton and Adams (to name but four) to have ruled
    themselves out by now with recurrences of their previous injuries.
    
    Obviously not training hard enough ;-)
    
    Dom

Did someone tell him to

roll over...

AND DIE !

Both Ferdinand and Adams missed training yesterday 
as a precautionary measure against agrivating
current injuries.

    re: -1
    I knew it...
    
    Btw, which one of them were you referring to with your
    roll-over-and-die comment?
    
    Dom

    Basically, the heroic mutt managed to hang himself with his lead while
    chasing a cat! This happened a few months after finding the cup.
    
    			Stretch.
    
    P.S Wasn't that worth waiting for?!?!?

    Good cartoon in today's Guardian 
    
    commentator sitting in the box - talking to the microphone says
    
    "a goal for england ! under the new rules we can't name the scorer"
    
    Andrew

    Andrew,
    
    Are you still in Dec Park this week?
    
    
    
    			Stretch.

    Stretch
    
    Well i'm here today but gone tomorrow why you ask? I'm actually in the
    luxurious surroundings of DEC PARK II at j9
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Andrew,
    A few of the locals had considered a drinkie over the road as you were
    in town.
    
    
           		Stretch.

    Stretch
    
    Post House or whatever it's called at 5.30pm?
	I will be disguised  but the Atlanta Braves Sweatshirt may gve me
    away.
        
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Andrew,
    
    Problems with tonight. See the mail that is heading your way as I type.
    
    
    
    				Stretch.

    Two new faces in Group A squads:-
        Holland
        -------
    	Frank de Boer has been replaced by Jaap Stam of PSV
    
    	and
        Switzerland
    	-----------
    	Christophe Ohrel has been replaced by Patrik Sylvestre
    
    	Holland could be missing five regulars for Scotland game:
    
    	Frank de Boer (absent), Danny Blind (suspended), Patrick Kluivert,
    	Ron de Boer and Peter Hoekstra all injured

    
    Good luck to England, bad luck to everyone else...(ie..Scotland ).
    
    Hope its as good as USA 94, and the three lions win it, but I doubt it.
    
    Dave...
    
    

    I dunno, I'm quietly confident this time. I won't go out on a limb and
    say we *will* win it, but I think England have probably got as good a
    chance as anyone else. Germany (internal squabbles), Italy (dodgy defence 
    [!] and lack of consistency) and Holland (injuries) have all got their 
    problems at the moment; perhaps France are looking the best bet.
    
    No one likes to criticise their team as much as the English, but I
    think there's a lot of cause for optimism. The defence may look a
    little green, but I think we've only conceded about 10-11 goals since
    Venables took over, and several teams, including Croatia and Bulgaria, have
    struggled to even get a shot on goal at Wembley. Ironically, it's the
    attack that doesn't seem to be jelling, even though it looks atomic on
    paper. Sherringham always seems to play well for England, but Shearer,
    Ferdinand and Fowler seem to have difficulty showing their club form.
    There's a lot of pressure on the Fat Boy too (almost a veteran now!), not 
    least because when he's on form he can really galvanize the rest.
    
    Btw, in Italy they're predicting an England-Italy final...
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. The papers in Italy seem to be unanimous about 10/11ths of the 
    lineup for tomorow. The eleventh place seems to be a fightout between
    Stone, Southgate and Barmby, according to whether Venables decides on 3
    or 4 defenders. Any ideas?

    COME ON SWITZERLAND!!!!
    
    Ray....

    
    re -2
    
    I think TV will continue to play 3 at the back, he seems to have set
    his stool out and to change it now would only cause confusion 
    (epecially amongst the Newspapers).
    
    I hope we do well ie Semi's at least but don't worry coz waiting in the
    wings is King Glenn Hoddle ready to lead us to the World Cup in 98.
    
    Pj                                     
    

Re 3 or 4. My paper points out that TV watched Switzerland last week, when 
they played with 3 strikers - and lost 2-1 - so they reckon it'll be Southgate 
to make 4 at the back. They also thought Platt would get the 4th midfield 
spot in front of Macman. All sounded plausible to me.

Apparently the Swiss squad are in wonderful harmony now, and really looking 
forward to it. All I can say is - I have to live here, please don't screw it up 
tomorrow lads!!

grahame

>Apparently the Swiss squad are in wonderful harmony now, and really looking 
>forward to it. 
    
    Funny, all the reports I'm hearing are that morale is at an all-time
    low, due to the disastrous results they've been getting of late, and
    the fact that Knup and A.N. OTHER (memory blank) were left out of the
    squad. I don't read too much into these things anyway; given that
    results have been poor of late, the Swiss might feel they've got nothing 
    to lose and throw caution to the wind. 
    
>All I can say is - I have to live here, please don't screw it up 
>tomorrow lads!! 
    
    Know the feeling, Grahame! If Italy beat England at a later stage of
    the tournament, I might just vanish into thin air and start a new life
    in South America ;-)
    
    Dom

Hi Dom,

Hey, this is only the papers we're talking about - who knows what's really 
happening?! After the entire media and fan-base give them a hammering for 
dropping Knup and Sutter, there was a 5-day media blackout, and now I suppose 
it's honours-even and get on with the job.

But the Sports Editor of Blick (the mass-market paper) still has his knife out 
for Jorge - sounds as if I'm reading the wrong paper.

JVC have a huge campaign which features Knup. When he wasn't picked to go,
they discovered that his profile was much higher than if he had been picked, so
they're keeping him in their publicity.

There's even an apparently-serious campaign to make football 'democratic', the 
goal of which is, I think to get the people to vote on who gets picked! Very
Swiss. 

grahame

    Well the ideal result for GASH a 1-1 draw.
    
    got up at 8am to drive to the nearest bar showing the game and then
    found out they had picked up the feed from RTP (a portuguese channel)
    instead of the BBC or whoever but anyway...
    
    England clearly outplayed Switzerland in the first half and took the
    lead through Shearer with a goal from a position that was clearly
    offside which caused the swiss and scotch supporters in the bar to
    start yelling some song about the linesman bearing russian.
    
    england should have put a second goal in before half-time but
    sheringham and anderton kept running into each other and Ince was
    strangely subdued (he didn't get booked). Approaching halftime
    one of the swiss players missed the goal from inside the 6 yard box
    causing almost the entire bar (excluding the swiss) to start singing
    "One andy cole, there's only one andy cole"
    
    The second half was dire, some strange subsitutions - Stone for
    mcmanaman and Platt for gazza seemed to indicate that england were
    settling for 1-0 when the swiss got an extremely dodgy penalty and
    suddenly it was 1-1.
    
    having seeing switzerland in 94 I didn't think they were anyway near as
    good this year and England may have missed their best chance in this
    group as Scotland and Holland must be stronger sides.
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    
     Not a bad opening game but both sides will probably feel they could
    have won it. England could have been 2 or 3 up by half-time, the Swiss
    were far better in the 2nd half and could have sneaked it.
    
     Penalty a bit dodgy but Pearce raised his hands and stopped an effort
    on goal, I think most refs would have given it.
    
     From Scotlands point of view, I would play Spencer up front and get
    him to run at Adams who I think is a definite weak link in the England
    team. He's definitely suspect on the ground. 
    
     Danny.

England were better the first half and deserved the lead, the goal from Shearer
was not off-side, Dutch telly showed it from different angles in slomotion and
at the moment Ince played the ball Shearer was level with the Swiss defenders
ie not off-side.

The second half England played shit and although the penalty should not have
been given the Swiss deserved at least a draw.


T_

    1-1
    
    I think the `English' style of play caused England to lose this match.
    They were clearly knackered in the last half-hour through chasing lost 
    causes. Anderton is not fit and should be replaced. Why did El Tel
    replace McManaman, their most effective player overall?...
    
    Have they shortened the length of the Wembley pitch?...
    
    Ray....

>The second half England played shit and although the penalty should not have
>been given the Swiss deserved at least a draw.
    
    No half-measures here! But sh*t just about says it all.
    
    England simply went from one extreme to the other: they started as
    positively as anyone could reasonably hope (the Swiss keeper had to
    make a save in the first minute), but after an hour, they gave up the
    ghost and seemed intent on playing for a draw. I think 1-1 was pretty
    fair in the end. Italian TV also confirmed that Shearer's goal was
    ONSIDE. As for the penalty against Pearce, I would hope that ANY
    referee would give it. It's not a question of whether it was deliberate
    handball or not; if the ball touches your hand/arm in the penalty area 
    and YOU get the advantage (i.e. the ball doesn't end up at the feet of
    an attacker), then it's a penalty. Hard luck on Pearce, but no bones
    about it.
    
    Personally, I can't really pinpoint what went wrong. IMO, Adams didn't
    have a bad game at all, except for the foul for which he was booked.
    The rest of the time, Grassi didn't get a look in and Adams won a huge
    number of tackles, especially in the first half. However, it must be
    said that if you play Anderton-Ince-Gascoigne-McManaman across the
    midfield, then Ince is going to have to work overtime everytime England
    lose the ball (the other three are practically part-timers when the
    opposition are in possession); that's asking a lot of a player when the
    climate is so hot/humid. So maybe playing Anderton AND McManaman is a
    bit of a luxury. As for Gascoigne, the guy's a genius when he wants to
    play; when he doesn't, he might as well sit in the dugout and play
    noughts-and-crosses.
    
    Great goal from Shearer - probably the best move of the match. I hope
    it's not lost on people that it was very "Continental" in style (i.e.
    quick interpassing, a perfectly-timed throughball for an attacker who
    cleverly beats the offside trap [just!] and a powerful finish). The
    sort of goal you associate more with Ajax than England, but it was
    fairly similar to the goal Platt scored against Denmark. Venables must
    probably take the credit for the fact that England do seem to have more
    attacking options now.
    
    Hmm, probably the only real bright spot...
    
    Dom 

    Re -1
    
    Sorry Dom, you are wrong on the Penalty. The key word in the rule is
    INTENTIONAL. There is nothing about advantage or anything. Pearce's
    handball clearly was not intentional, just a reflex action to the ball
    heading for his face.
    
    Anyway, good start for England, followed by a cr*p second half. The
    Swiss would be an impressive force with Knupp & Suter to call on as
    well!
    
    Venables should make a new start now, as Robson did in Italia 90.
    Unfortunately though the next game is the ultimate grudge game and as
    such will end up as "heads down, no-nonsense mindless boogie" rather
    than creative football! IMHO, we should go straight to 3 at the back,
    with Southgate as the centre. He saved Adams on numerous occasions.
    Adams is good for four things, heading away crosses, heading in
    corners, appealing for offside and giving kiddy rides at the seaside.
    When fully fit, he is sometimes an asset, when half fit he can often be
    a liability. With Southgate, Neville & Pearce you have three defenders
    who have flexibility, and can bring the ball forward.
    
    Then go with 5 in the middle, Stone, Platt, Gascoigne, Ince,
    McMannaman. Ince & Stone do the donkey work for Gascoigne, Platt does
    the up&down for Gascoigne, McM..etc does the crossing, and Gazza does
    the creative stuff. Bring on Anderton in the last 30 minutes when he
    can do some damage.
    
    Play Shearer up front with either Barmby (who looks sharper than
    Sheringham who's slowness was exposed in tournament play) or Fowler who
    can poach off Shearer's strength, AND defends well ( as taught by
    Rush), with Ferdinand as the last 15 up & at 'em charger if needed.
    
    Sorted - OK?
    
    I still reckon we'll qualify by beating the Scots and drawing with
    Holland, who will beat both Switzerland and Scotland - or at least I
    hope so!
    
    Paul

    
    Poor second-half from England who still haven't learnt that
    international football is about possession, not charging about like
    madmen from the first whistle. Sitting back on a lead is fine as long
    as you keep the ball - unfortunately, England did just the opposite.
    
    This may have been because they ran out of steam - Gascoigne can't play
    90 minutes at full pace. If he plays, he should move further forward
    and allow Ince and maybe Southgate to do the fetching and carrying,
    saving himself for doing damage in the final third. Sheringham and
    Anderton were very poor, easily their worst games for England.
    
    England must now beat Scotland; if they fail to, then thoughts of
    winning the tournament really were pie-in-the-sky.
    
    
    Jeff
    
    

re: .39

Andy,

Shearers goal wasn't offside. The replay showed he was level when the ball was
played.


Ian.

And suddenly all is wonderful in the world of Swiss football - amazing what a 
difference 45 minutes can make. And that's all it was. At HT they decided 
that hoofing the ball upfield wasn't really going to get them the goal they 
needed, and maybe they should bring it through midfield.  This turned out to be 
a good idea as England's midfield just didn't show up for the second half. 1-1 
was about right.

We made Switzerland look better than they are - I'm sure they'll lose 
to Holland, they may even lose to Scotland!

I agree with just about all the England comments. Platt has to play on 
Saturday. If Macmanaman and Gascoigne are our only creative players, then 
Anderton will probably have to go.

I thought Shearer had a great game. But overall, the message England sent out 
on Saturday was - please don't attack us, we don't like it!

grahame

    
    
    Grahame,
    
    listening to the 'Kaesefresser' in the office here, you would think
    they'd just been crowned European Champions. Looking forward to the
    reaction if (when??) they do lose to Scotland.
    
    Paul

Ahha - a law controversy!  Not having had the luxury of seeing
this game yet, I can't comment on the specific decision but here's
what the law says:-

A player who... handles the ball deliberately, i.e. carries, strikes, or
propels the ball with his hand or arm... shall be penalised...

Given this, was it the correct decision? I contend that under this
wording most "hand balls" aren't.

Gerry

    No - the ball was hit with considerable force on an upwards trajectory
    towards Pearce from a distance of a couple of feet. He threw his arms
    up in front of his face in a relfex action and the ball hit them. I
    would say it gets given as a penalty 1 in 10 times,unless its a Man U
    player kicking the ball when I would up it to 8 in 10 :-)
    
    Paul

    Paul,
    I'm not denying that the word "intentional" appears in the rulebook.
    However, I still maintain that most referees will only blow if the
    defender obtains some appreciable advantage (as in Pearce's case). In
    much the same way, play sometimes gets waved on after a clear foul
    because the ball went to another member of the attacking team. And, in
    any case, I think Pearce could have kept his arms closer to his sides
    and made himself a little bit less of a target ;-) Then again, I
    probably haven't seen the action replays nearly as many times as you
    guys have...
    
    Your team selection against Scotland gives me a lot more cause for
    optimism...in fact, I hope TV is thinking along those lines! I'd be a
    lot less scathing in my opinion of Adams; people often don't notice
    just how quick he is (I've seen him roast people like Asprilla and
    Donadoni over short distances) and I still don't think he had a bad
    game on Saturday. In fact, I'm sure we'd hear the word "donkey" a lot
    less if he was 5ft 9" and not 6ft 3" ;-) That said, it probably makes
    sense to play just Southgate against Scotland, given that their attack
    will be made up of Jess/Spencer/Durie (i.e. no Duncan Ferguson!)
    
    Dom

    
    I agree, not having seen the whole game, but the few minutes I saw
    included the Swiss goal.    Pearce through his arms up before the ball
    was kicked, ok, this doesn't mean he was TRYING to block with his arms,
    but it was a very obvious handball.
    
    Penalty, and from all accounts, a fair, if disappointing for England,
    result.
    
    Ian

    doh!
    
    Swizerland did deserve a draw, they did not deserve a penalty.
    
    dickie.
    

   <<< Note 560.52 by ESSB::BLONG "A Hat Trick of Premierships 93'94'&96" >>>
                             -< Worst game so far >-

>9 out of 10 ref's would have given a penalty. 

Agreed.

>                                             It was a definate peno and
                                                                ^^^^

                                                                 eh?


>Switzerland deserved the draw. 

Agreed.


>					England are sad.
 
 
"Sad"?  Dunno about that. They played like a bunch of stiffs.

I think it was a penalty. If Pearce hadn't of brought his arm down
he may of gotten away with it.


Stuart

I would'nt say someone deserved a draw, but neither deserved a point. What 
a disgrace for England! I hope it will stay with this only booooring game, 
even that the Germans and the Czeks tried to copy the first game.

A "British" football (disappointed) fan 


Name known at the redaction

    If you look at where Seaman was when the ball was played i.e. off his
    line by a fair distance. The ball would have probably went in the net if
    it hadn't hit "Pshyco's" hand anyway.
    
    
    

Personally I think that Saturday's result was the best for
England. 
Everyone is dissapointed , the press are calling for 
Gazza's head( not a bad thing ) but what people fail to realise
is that this team is just getting started.
Switzerland are no walk overs. They qualified on merit. The fact 
that England underperformed in the second half could have had a lot 
to do with the complacency from certain quarters. 
Mr. Gascoine has been playing in a second rate league all season. 
He's a cocky bastard.
He thinks that he can walk past International defenders in the same way
as he can a Falkirk 11. He thinks that teams are joing to yawn down the
centre and give him a great big hole of space to run into. That didn't
happen in the Swiss game and won't happen with any future game. It wasn't
that he ran out of steam he ran out of ideas. His tactics are derived
from competing against 2nd rate players and he is clueless in the face
of more serious competition. When he couldn't get through he passed horizontally
and gave away all the momentum from any attack. He should be running past defenders in 
order to create space for the wingers.
No competitive matches for 2 1/2 years , pressure from all sides ,
a very suspect formation considering how the team have been played 
up until now. In fairness the passing was dreadful.
Now the ice is broken. Shearer has scored , the team now know that
they are going to have to keep the ball and play a hell of a lot better 
in attack if they're going to win.
IMO saturday was the perfect kick start for both the team and Venables.

Solution...
Play 3-5-2 , give Gascoine one last chance against the Scottish whiping boys.
England will win but if it isn't convincing Gazza should be droped 
for the Dutch game.

Peter(AIC)

One more Draw and I'm supporting Holland

    	On Thursday I shall be visiting Villa Park to watch the Watchmakers
    	vs Clog Manufactures XI, my questions are 2 in number.
    
    	1. How well signposted is Villa Park from the A38(M)?
    	2. Who should I be 'rooting' for as it were?
    
    	dickie.
    
    	(multilingual Pie Song at the ready...
    
    	Qui a mange tout les tourtes
        Qui a mange tout les tourtes
    	Tu l'hai fatto
        Tu l'hai fatto
    	Du grosse herr
    	Tu mange tout les tourtes
    
    	apologies to my european neighbours ;)
        

    Anyone got the Scotland vs Holland score??
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Rick.

        And that's how it finished... good result for Scotland.... so it looks
    like whoever wins on Saturday has a good chance of progressing to the
    next round... 

    The pressure will really be on England....

    Cheers,

    	Rick.

    Well done Scotland. To get a point from a clearly superior Dutch side
    is a great achievement. Great defensive performance but a special
    mention must go to Collins for some superb tackling and a superb
    handball on the blind-side of the ref....
    
    Ray....

    
    At least Scotland put some elbow grease into the game...If any game
    should produce a few goals it should be the one on Saturday between
    England and Scotland...England were awful, Scotland were not much
    better but whereas England (and this their first game) looked jaded,
    Scotland battled on against one has to admit a technically FAR superior
    footballing side. 
    
    	So England gave away a penalty to draw...Scotland survived a
    penalty to draw....
    
    Dezzz.

    
    
     Apart from the first 10 minutes, Scotland defended very well. Holland
    had the bulk of possession, especially in the 2nd half but never
    created many clear chances. The main worry for Scotland is the lack of
    chances up front. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3 0-0 draws.
    
     Collins, McAllister and Goram were outstanding. I cannot understand
    the selection of Gallagher though. He's hardly played any football for
    the best part of 2 seasons, yet he's on from the start in a very
    crucial game. His performance showed that he's not fit or sharp enough
    to compete at this level. 
    
     Special mention to the referee who tried to let the game flow as much
    as possible without dishing out yellow cards all over the place. Great
    positioning for the "alleged" penalty as well. :-)
    
     Danny.

    Well done Scotland! Especially considering the assumption that a
    complete thrashing was on the cards (someone a few notes back refered
    to them as the groups wipping boys). 
    A small bit of luck (definate pen!) and some great saves by Goram,
    along with total determination from *all* the players brought a deserved 
    point for the team. This sets up Saturdays meeting rather nicely.
    
    
    
    			Stretch.
    
    P.S What were the words being used for the "Cheer up XXX XXXX, oh what
    can it mean" chant?

    Didn't see the Scotland game (even managed to miss the highlights!), so
    I can't comment. Still, it's certainly put the cat amongst the
    pidgeons...
    
    Interesting observation on Italian TV at the weekend, where they were
    discussing the England game and the general blandness of England's
    performance. Two respected Italian "experts" (including Giorgio
    Chinaglia, ex-Lazio/New York Cosmos/Italy) were stunned that Venables
    could possibly have left David Batty out of the squad, even going as
    far as to say that he'd probably have found a place in any other team
    at the European Championships.
    
    And I daressay I'm inclined to agree. Apart from destroying the
    opposition's passing movements (OK, sometimes he overdoes it, but it
    has to be said that no opposing player can dally on the ball while
    Batty's on the park!), the other thing for which Batty stands out is
    continuity. Ok, he's no Platini, but he keeps the ball moving and keeps 
    things ticking over, which was definitely missing on Saturday. Sure,
    Gascoigne's on another planet in terms of imagination/vision, but if
    every time he gets the ball, he stops, does a couple of feints and then
    plays a lateral ten yard pass to a full back, then we're always going to 
    have trouble breaking down a ten man defence (as was the case on 
    Saturday). Batty gives opposing teams a lot less time to
    reassemble...and if they back off, he shoots ;-)
    
    Just a thought...but I know that in this conference Batty is right up
    there with Tony Adams in the popularity stakes ;-)
    
    Dom

Interesting remarks about Batty - maybe Platt will provide some of that on 
Sat? Certainly someone (or 2) have to fill up midfield better than against 
Switzerland.

Terrific performance by Scotland last night - I thought Collins was great as 
well. (btw, it took 2 replays before I was convinced it was handball, so I'm 
with the ref on this one!)

Just like Juve in the European Cup Final, they showed that the best way to play 
against the Dutch is to not let them play in their way. The Scots never let 
them settle, anywhere on the pitch - they must be knackered.

I think England COULD do the same to the Dutch next week, but I don't suppose 
we will. We'll go out there, determined to prove we play "International" (not 
British) football, and prove yet again, that we don't do it as well as the 
Dutch. 

Scotland will really fancy their chances on Saturday now - they might like 
being 'underdogs', but in their hearts they probably think they're better 
than England anyway.

grahame

>I think England COULD do the same to the Dutch next week, but I don't suppose 
>we will. We'll go out there, determined to prove we play "International" (not 
>British) football, and prove yet again, that we don't do it as well as the 
>Dutch. 
    
    I think what England should be looking for, Grahame, is a happy mix
    between the two. We always seem to end up criticising our football
    because it puts too much emphasis on workrate - did anyone notice the
    amount of running/tackling that the French did last night? Their
    midfield only contains one player (Zidane) who really likes to put his
    foot on the ball, and even he is no slouch; the rest (Deschamps, Karembeu, 
    etc.) are very much "water-carriers". But the important thing is that the 
    team has momentum; they move the ball around quickly and run off the ball
    intelligently. 
    
    Same goes for most of the top teams. The Dutch (and Ajax for that
    matter) are mainly versatile players who run, tackle and pass equally well; 
    they wouldn't dream of accomodating a primadonna in their ranks, the
    sort of player who indulges in extravagant backheels, but then doesn't 
    pull his weight to win the ball back (before anyone thinks otherwise, this 
    is NOT a dig at Gascoigne, who's main problem seems to be to concentrate 
    for a whole game). Hell, Sacchi (Italian manager) has publicly stated that 
    he only wants players who run for 90 minutes...and that's why Roberto 
    Baggio is watching these championships on TV. 
    
    This sort of all-rounders are what modern football is all about (even
    Brazil have come round to this way of thinking - it'll be a long time
    before they pick another player like Socrates!). We do produce these 
    players in this country (Robson, Ince, Platt, etc.), but public opinion 
    seems to have suddenly turned against the player who runs around trying to
    make life difficult for his opponents, instead of watching from a static
    position, and hitting meaningless passes with the outside of his foot.
       
    So, much as I rate Gazza, McManaman and Anderton (whose workrate is
    pretty damned good when he's fit, of course) as individuals, I don't
    think we can afford to have them all playing together.
            
    Dom

Well Done Scotland!

An great performance for the 80-1 outsiders especially John Collins., God knows
why Sellic let him go for nothing. I think his move is just a stepping stone
between Sellic and Rangers :-)

Anyway here's to a great game on Saturday, now the hard parts over :-)

Liam.
 

    
    Ref : .69
    
    > Scotland...probably think they're better than England anyway.
    
    I know this to be true (I'm English), the Scots BELIEVE they are best
    at all sports, soccer, rugby, battles etc.  This gives them something
    of an edge EVEN when they may be less skilled...
    
    IAn

    Come on England!   NOT!!!!!
    
    
    
    KEV
    

    
    They've been out drinking again!
    
    Ian

    Interesting article in the Telegraph today prompted by the number of
    draws so far in the tournament.
    
    If England and Scotland tie for 2nd place in the group with identicle
    goal difference, then the countback is based around a coefficient of
    results in the last 4 years of "competitive" results.  Given that
    England have played much less than most, they have a coefficient that
    places them second from bottom (Turkey are last) of all competitors in
    the competition.  Scotland are just above England, so if this were to
    happen, Scotland would qualify for the quarters based on some
    ridiculously innappropriate calculation from the depths of EUFA's
    statisticians.........
    
    
    Nev.

What's up? I don't see why we have to play the tabloids' game of slagging off 
the team/trainer/country just because someone's been seen in a night club a 
week before the next game. They're more likely to adopt an intelligent 
attitude if they're allowed to behave as humans than if they're cooped up 
in some hotel playing cards all week.

Let the gutter press have their fun - but whatever it is they're trying to 
achieve, I don't want any of it.

grahame

    Couldn't agree more - no one players feel the tension on match days
    with this sort of crap flying around. I suppose the journos want the
    players to shut themselves in hotel rooms and study 90-page Don
    Revie-style dossiers about their opponents? 
    
    Out of interest, who were the "guilty" players?
    
    Dom

    Dom,
    
    fair play to Venables for standing by his players but no other team's
    players have been seen in nightclubs recently and most of the teams
    have an alcohol ban for the duration of the tournament, so who is
    right?...
    
    Ray....
    
    ps....as usual the gutter British press are at the heart of all this.
    Why can't they get behind their team?...the Daily Mirror seem to be the
    most gutter-ish at the moment, that sad wanker Harry Harris is digging up 
    every last bit of muck he can about England and Venables in particular. 

    
    Right lets start talking about how we're going to beat the Scots.
    
    The chances are we're going to have a good old british game with lots of
    passion so we need to have Shearer and Fowler on the same pitch whilst 
    we have pleny of balls put into the box for them to score. 
    
    Lets look at the Scottish keeper Goram, great at anything below his
    shoulders but he will not take anything in the air ie Holland, Juventus
    etc.
    
    Stick the ball in the air around the six yard box (avoid Hendry) and get 
    the players coming in on the Keeper .... England will win.
    
    Play three at the back so that it gives us a extra man in midfield
    and push Gazza up so that his skills can be deployed around their 18yrd
    box not ours.
    
    Let Ince and Platt hold the midfield letting Anderton and Mac thingy
    providing the ammo for the two guys up front.
    
    Pj            

    If I had played to the standard of the second half on Saturday I would
    have wanted to get a little pished as well.(smiley stuff) 
    
    Seriously though.....
    
    It's about time the *press* got a complete roasting over their behaviour. 
    
    The thing is now, it could spur the team either way 
    
    Adopt El Tel voice.
    
    (a) "We were under so much pressure we blew it"
    
    OR 
    
    (b)"We had a point to prove and the press attention helped us focus on
    what we had to do"
    
    I have taken great steps to avoid the tabloids during this championship
    as the "coverage" of certain things is distracting from the important
    stuff i.e football! The way the press are acting in this country is not 
    constructive or useful, and I sometimes forget that they are supposed
    to be *journalists* instead of the back stabbing/whingeing/storm-in-a- 
    teacup f***wits that they are currently acting as!!! Silly me!!!
    
    
    		
    				Stretch.

    Ray,
    
    >fair play to Venables for standing by his players but no other team's
    >players have been seen in nightclubs recently 
    
    By whom? Our gutter press would probably have trouble recognising Sol
    Campbell let alone members of the Croatian or Turkish national teams!
    
    >ps....as usual the gutter British press are at the heart of all this.
    >Why can't they get behind their team?
     
    Astounding isn't it? Sacchi and the Italian players complain about the
    press here, but I think they have an easy life, i.e. the Italian
    TV/press are maybe over-zealous but they're usually 100% (well, 99%!)
    behind the team. One of the newspapers here ran the headline today: 
    "Europe Is Ours!". 
    
    The only muck-spreading they ever seem today concerns players EXCLUDED
    from the squad, e.g. Vialli has caused a sensation by saying
    (allegedly) that if Italy meet England in the final, he'll be rooting
    for England! Well, I hope he's sold his property in Italy because that
    sort of statement's sure to be worth a few broken windows...
    
    Dom

    Steve Howey is out of Euro 96 after falling over and injuring
    his ankle on Sunday. Bizarrely, he hadn't touched a drop.
    
    Andy

    re:  .79
    Bear in mind that Hendrie should know Shearer inside out. Come to think
    of it, I recall him doing a good job on Ferdinand in the Premiership
    recently.
    
    On the other hand, I fancy the idea of McManaman running at McKimmie...
    
    Dom

    re: .79
    
    If the Scottish defence can keep Kluivert/Bergkamp out then I think
    they'll have less trouble with Shearer (unless Ince feeds him as well
    as he did for the Swiss goal :-( ). Fowler I think would probably be
    overawed with the occasion (Hopefully). As for Gazza, well  him and Sally
    will be too busy makin out :-) cos they're in love! 
    
    c,mon SCOTLAND!
    
    Liam.

In all fairness I don't think that Scotland kept Holland
out in the true sense of the word. True they kept them from scoring
but the ammount of chances and the lack of luck on the Dutch part
was more to with the draw than the competent defending by the Scots.
The game reminded me of Ireland's 1-0 against England in Euro '88.
The English had plenty of chances in that game and the Irish
played out of their skins to hold them off. We scored early and held
our ground. Scots please note for Saturday.
In fairness ( and on a note of optimism for the Scots ) the Irish played 
better than both the Russians and the Dutch in the two following games and 
should have beaten each team. Maybe they'd relaxed and gained confidence
after their unlikely win.

Scotland are fooling themselves if they think they can do what they did to the 
Dutch again on Saturday. 
Scotland have a choice , score early and defend  , or defend early and score on 
the break when the frustration has set in.
If the English can be held for the first 45 minutes they'll panic and that's the
chance for Scotland to score on the break if not then god help Scotland. Because
if the Scots lose a goal in the first 20 and have to chase the game
they'll be in for a mauling. Scotland will never come from behind to win any 
game in this championship. Monday was luck. It won't last

England to give Craig Browns men a mauling !

C'mon England !!!!!!!!!

    England to give scotland a mauling! ha! ha! England could'nt maul
    a doughnut!
    
    
              kevin

    
    Once Craig Brown's boys give them a doing on Saturday , the following
    morning,s newspaper headlines shall read.
    
                           THEY THINK ITS ALL OVER  !
    
                           IT IS NOW  !   
    
           Gerrriiiintaethem  Scotland 
    
    
      Iain..

    HOW CAN THEY THINK IT'S ALL OVER, WHEN IT NEVER REALLY GOT STARTED.
    
    
    
    SCOTLAND 2  ENGLAND 1   (ADAMS SENT OFF)
    
    
    

    In the words of the great Brian Clough: "Say nowt, win it...then talk
    your mouth off!" ;-)
    
    Any news of the probable lineups? That jewel of sporting journalism,
    the Gazzetta dello Sport, suggests that England will play 3-5-2 with
    Platt coming in for Southgate. Not mad on the idea myself; Southgate
    was pretty efficient against the Swiss and I think that if you play 3
    at the back, it's in your interests to make sure that they're all
    really quick (OK, Neville is, but Pearce and Adams aren't any longer).
    
    On the Scots side, I assume we can take it that McCall will stick
    pretty close to Gazza?
    
    Dom

    Possible Scotland Squad:
    
    				GORAM
    
    				BOYD
    
    			HENDRY		CALDERWOOD
    	BURLEY			MCCALL		       T.MCKINLAY
    	        	COLLINS		MCCALLISTER
    
    			DURIE		SPENCER
    

Switzerland's getting very 'excited' about The Match - i.e. the one this 
evening. Looks as if there'll be a few changes - probably Hottiger for 
Jeanneret (the one who played Shearer onside), Chapuisat for Bonvin. Once 
again, a draw will be considered a cause for National rejoicing.

g

    
    
    Would be my choice....
    
    
    				Goram
    
    	Boyd         Calderwood       Hendry        T.McKinlay
    
    	McCall	     McAllister       B.McKinlay          Collins
    
    			McCoist		Spencer
    
    Although Craig Brown said in Monday's press that we wouldn't adopt a
    defensive line-up against Holland, he lied.   Durie and Gallaher were
    so wide and so deep (and so pish) they posed no threat to Holland.  
    He should now dump them and go with two guys who've proved they can do
    some damage up front.  If he plays McKimmie at full back, any one of the
    English wingers will slaughter him.  
    
    As a Scot, I hope that Venables sticks with Barmby, Anderton, Stone
     - even McManaman - and DOESN'T use Platt or Rednapp from the start!
    And I'm also very relieved that Beardsley won't be there.
    
    Michael
    

    If Scotland play McKimmie he will cost us the game because he is crap!
    
    
    kev

    
    Come on ENGLAND, stuff these boring over confident Jocks. 
    
    prediction ENGLAND 2 : Horrible,jock,Mcginger,full of wind,bagpiped blowing
    fudge packers 0.
    
    And Gazza will be on the score sheet...
    
    

    
    Very quiet in Switzerland this morning.
    
    
    Paul

    
    
    re .94  I've been away from this notesfile for a long time, but it's
    nice to see that healthy civilised debate lives on.
    
    Who rattled your cage, pal?  
    
    
    Michael (sans Ginger Beard)
    

    
    You Sweaty socks are just so full of CRAP.. You know that your gonna
    lose .  You may have got a lucky point against the CLOG DANCERS but 
    did anybody ever tell you that there's a goal at the other end of the
    park for you to score in. Anyway lets hope not to many jocks end up 
    in hospital ... 
    
    

When Scotland win tomorrow, will it be a British victory? and When the English
European tour of England morons rip up the seats and throw them at each other 
will the commentary say.. What a disgrace for English football.

I wonder.

GERINTAETHEM for Britains sake :-) Like the Tartan Special I am BITTER :-)

Liam.
 

    
    
    Foreigners often ask us why we hate the English so much....
    
    Notes .94 and .97 explain it better than Braveheart ever could.
    They might also explain why English fans have they reputation they
    have?
    
    We just like to party.   'Spose that's the difference.  We're there to
    enjoy it, but we KNOW we're not gonna win the competition.  Can't wait
    to read the 'gutter' press, - or some of these 'gutter notes' when you
    lot get kicked out.  You might even have one foot out tomorrow at 5:00.
    
    
    William Wallace.
    
    

and I thought you Scots were usually pretty good at spotting wind-ups. Please 
don't take Neil Cossey seriously - he wouldn't know how to handle it!

(Welcome back Neil!)

g

    >Foreigners often ask us why we hate the English so much....
    
    >Notes .94 and .97 explain it better than Braveheart ever could.
    >They might also explain why English fans have they reputation they
    >have?
    
    Fine - notes like .94 and .97 aren't even worth the time needed to read
    them, and I'm sure any self-respecting England fan (because they do
    exist) would disassociate him(her)self from them immediately.
    
    It's a pity you guys close your eyes to notes like .86, .87 and .88
    though. Or are we supposed to believe that it's "tongue-in-cheek" when
    the Scots get all arrogant and over-confident? ;-)
    
    Dom

    
    The reason you hate the English is because you cant stand the fact 
    that we beat you in everything, and probably for the simple reason 
    that you wish you were English, so you could be proud of your
    country.. Lets face it! what have you jocks ever done to be proud
    of......  You all walk around in your little skirts and handbags
    and think your gods gift,  well you look aload of tarts....
    
    

    I'm sure he's only joking, lads...I mean, look at his personal name ;-)
    
    Dom

    	I went to the game at Villa Park last night, and basically Holland
    	will walk it against England. The set plays were well executed, the
    	defence was strong, the ball control was good, jumpers for goalposts,
    	thirty a side, mmm, isn't it?
    
    	The Dutch supporters were fantastic, it was all very good natured,
    	although someone did nearly leave the ground with a trumpet stuffed up
    	their (cont p.94).
    
    	dickie.

While I agree with Mr Furniture that England will have a tough task against 
the Dutch, I'm less sure regarding the Set Plays. I thought the corners in 
particular were very poor, in fact they have been all tournament. There seems 
little invention around in that area.

As for the nice friendly Scots etc etc, I read an interview with one Rab C 
Nesbitt type who reckoned that he and his mates had bought tickets in the 
English areas and he would try and get his axe in! If he didn't manage that he 
would just grab "fence posts or something" Does he think Wembley is a 
building site? Also - remember the reason we don't play ths fixture anymore 
has rather a lot to do with a certain riot at Wembley when the Jocks actually 
won.

I fullt accept England's hooligan element exists but please don't pretend that 
the Scots have none of their own.

Paul

    >Foreigners often ask us why we hate the English so much....
    
    They ask me the same about you lot as well, I say it's because they're
    so easy to wind up and can't take a joke.;^)
    
    Anyway Wembley 15th June 1996 = Culloden MkII.
    
    I hope Sol Campbell is playing. X^D
               ^^^^^^^^
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
    That's twice my line about hating the English has been
    inserted.....thought that might stir things up a wee bit  ;-)
    
    And if I'm not mistaken, the Scottish 'riot' of 1967 was 12 years
    before the fixture was finally abolished.  That 'riot' where some turf
    was dug up, goal posts broken, but not a punch was thrown.
    
    No, I seem to remember the final nail in its coffin came when a
    significant number of English yobs decided to come up for the Hampden
    game in 1989, and there was a lot of trouble in Glasgow city centre and 
    outside Hampden that year.  Of course every country has its idiots, but
    please don't compare our fans' misbehaviour record with the English.
    You guys are in a league of your own.
    
    
    Michael
      

    Good try.....
    
    
    CHARLEY
       X

    I assume the short reply from Switzerland indicates a Holland victory
    but could someone please post the **** score as the Web pages for
    Euro96 are so slow from here.
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    >I assume the short reply from Switzerland indicates a Holland victory
    >but could someone please post the **** score as the Web pages for
    >Euro96 are so slow from here.
    
    The score was 2-0 (Cruyff, Bergkamp) to Holland. They were very poor in
    the first half, but perked up a bit in the second.
    
    Dom
    

    "They were very poor in the first half, but perked up a bit in the
    second."
    
    Horlicks!
    
    The Netherlands were a bit shaky to start with Bergkamp and Cruyff not
    managing to quite get to the long balls, but they were certainly not
    'very poor'. The Swiss were very poor, very poor actors that is, that
    number 11, forget what his name was, is a disgrace and should be
    disciplined for his ungentlemanly conduct. After half time Holland were
    revitalised, the energy shown by all players was a lesson to most of
    the England squad (not difficult I grant you) and they played exciting
    fluid football, when the ref wasn't thinking up some more useful things
    to do with their time.
    
    dickie...I know (apologies to Max Boyce fans), because I was there.

    Got your money on them, have you? ;-)
    
    From my place in front of the TV set, the Dutch barely created a chance
    in the first half, Seedorf should have been sent off (two bookable
    offences), and the whole team (with the possible exception of Huistra)
    looked dead sluggish. Things changed after Cruyff's goal (probably
    because the Swiss realised that getting eleven men behind the ball is
    not conducive to pulling a goal back when you're losing). 
    
    In fact, the Italian commentator noted during the first half:" You
    wouldn't have thought there were seven Ajax players in this team - they
    look like they've never played together before in their lives!"
    
    Of course, now they'll probably go on and win the trophy... ;-)
    
    Dom                       

We were poor in the first half and only started to play real footy after
the first goal. Yes Seedorf should have received his marching order and
it was a good thing he was replaced by the Kock.

After the game Seedorf was pissed of with his replacement but the bloody
limit was Davids, in an interview with the English press he pissed of the
Dutch manager and stated that he should get his head out of the arses of
other players so he could see that Davids has to play and not sit on the
subs bench, what arrogance for a kid who's not 20 yet.

Anyway yesterday he was send home, shoudl serve him right.

T_

Scotland 0 Engerland 2 ( Shearer,Gascoigne).

    yes definitely an entertaining second half even though England
    did look a little lopsided having brought Redknapp on for Pearce.
    apart from "he plays for spurs" I couldn't quite see why sheringham 
    is playing instead of ferdinand or fowler as he seemed to be trying not
    to score for most of the game.
    
    the first half was ok - not a classic but not entirely without merit
    and I felt safe with my 0-0 prediction.
    
    the second half was definbitely a step up and both sides were definitel
    more interested. a fine goal from shearer though you must question how
    he was allowed to run onto the ball unmarked.
    
    then some interest at the other end - a penalty that wasn't given
    followed by one that was - i'm not sure about either but i probably
    would have said the first one was more likely. anyway from the second
    one Gary Mcallister blasted the ball straight at seaman and i think the
    scots started to give up a little at that point.
    
    finally one of those goals from gascoigne that reminds you that does
    have some unique talent even if he is a spoilt brat most of the time
    and definitely a goal of class. pulled the ball down - chipped it
    behind the defender with one foot and then volleyed it home with
    the other just inside the area.
    
    so england v holland for the group on tuesday.
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    Maybe England were 'lopsided' as you say when Redknapp came on (for
    Pearce) but, the squad is lopsided and I think young Jamie made a real
    difference at the beginning of the second half.  He later went off
    injured (is he ok for the Holland game?).
    
    What a goal from gazzer, and from Shearer for that matter, the cross
    from Neville was inch perfect...
    
    Why is Ince still in the squad?  He doesn't do anything except complain
    and mishit shots from 25 metres.
    
    Well done England!

    
    I was fortunate enough to be at Wembley on Saturday for what was
    undoubtedly a great occasion, although not a great game. The atmosphere
    was something special, all the more so because the fans were not
    segregated entirely effectively - I was surrounded by "sweaty socks"
    which, to be honest, made the result all the sweeter!
    
    As for the match, Scotland stifled England in the first half by simply
    marking Gascoigne out of the game. Tactically, Southgate had moved up
    into midfield but, for some reason, Gazza did not push further forward.
    Instead, he was still picking up the ball from Adams and Pearce which
    defeated the object of the extra man in midfield. In the second half,
    Rednapp's ability to hold and use the ball allowed Gazza to move
    further forward and England stopped relying so much on the fat boy - he
    wasn't involved in the first goal at all.
    
    Those couple of minutes after the penalty was awarded were
    extraordinary - pure theatre. The Scots around me must have been
    bitterly disappointed but still stood to applaud Gazza's goal - I can't
    imagine too many English fans reacting this way if the situation was
    reversed.
    
    
    Jeff
    
    

    
    I was also lucky enough to be at Wembley on Saturday....Without doubt
    the best atmosphere at an England game that Ive ever been to. Not such
    a great game, but its the result that counts and seeing the jocks
    crying into their kilts....by the way, no hint of trouble, either
    inside or out.
    
    Dave...

    
    I watched the game in  the pub and the best moment was when Seaman
    saved the penalty and around 100 blokes were all chanting "SEAMAN"
    "SEAMAN" if there was any homosexuals in the area they would have
    thought it was their lucky day....
    
    Mind you there were three girls in the corner singing .. "Tissues
    Tissues"
    
    Pj
    
    

    Vastly improved second half performance by England - the first half was
    pitiful. Both teams seemed to be paralysed by the tension, although the
    Scots certainly seemed to have more cohesion and some sort of gameplan.
    I couldn't believe the staleness of England's tactics.
    
    Redknapp made all the difference in the second half; he didn't put a
    foot wrong. Intelligent running, superb use of the ball, excellent
    tackling...and he also helped McManaman and Anderton to find their
    feet, with the result that they also had excellent second halves. I
    won't go as far as to say that he made a great difference to
    Gascoigne's game; the goal was the sort of effort that justify
    comparisons with Pele and Maradona, but for the rest of the game he was
    the Invisible Man. (One of the Italian newspapers gave Gazza 6 out of
    10, justifying it as the average obtained from 2 [the vote he deserved
    up to the moment he scored] and 10 [the vote he deserved for the goal
    itself]!) Certainly, if that's the end of Redknapp's participation in
    these European Championships, I can't see England going too much
    further either. Great first goal from Shearer too. Neville's cross was
    a gem.  Hard luck to the Scots. It's never easy to beat a team
    containing the likes of McAllister and McCall.
                    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Question for Palace fans only (no tricks, honest!): did Southgate 
    always play in midifeld? I'm not knocking the guy (in fact, I thought
    he had a reasonable game against the Swiss), but he looks to be a fish
    out of water in midfield; gritty enough, but his positional sense
    seemed all wrong, which is a bit puzzling given that it was a "British
    derby", i.e. the sort of football he should be used to.
                    
                          

    Dom,
    
    Southgate started as a defender, playing at either centre half or right
    back. In the Div 1 Championship season, Alan Smith made him captain and
    put him in the No 4 shirt playing in the deeper holding midfield role.
    He scored 10 goals and was one of the players of the season. In the
    Premier he played in the same place but moved deeper and deeper as the
    season progressed. This kept up our excellent defensive record
    (Looneypool excepted!) but mean that the goals dried up. I was
    surprised to see his role at Villa as I expected him to be a Townsend
    replacement.
    
    I don't think he has the ball skills or vision to be the creative
    midfielder but he has the tenacity to be the spoiler in or around the
    back 4 and to bring the ball out with confidence.
    
    Paul

<<< Note 560.120 by VARESE::SACHA::IDC_BSTR "Oh no! NOT Milan Kundera again!" >>>
        -< Let's hope they don't play another first half like that... >-

    
>    P.S. Question for Palace fans only (no tricks, honest!): did Southgate 
>    always play in midifeld? I'm not knocking the guy (in fact, I thought
>    he had a reasonable game against the Swiss), but he looks to be a fish
>    out of water in midfield; gritty enough, but his positional sense
>    seemed all wrong, which is a bit puzzling given that it was a "British
>    derby", i.e. the sort of football he should be used to.
 

     Dom,

     Paul P may put me right, but I believe Southgate started as a defender
     ( full back ), dabbled in the middle of the back, and then played
     in midfield - where he was competent but didn't show the form that
     he has been demonstrating at Villa. I believe that he matured a lot
     during his time in the Midlands, but suspect some of the things you 
     allude to about Saturday may be due to Ince's role and Gascoigne playing
     ( in the first half at least ) a more withdrawn role. England little
     shape then. I hope Venners keeps McManaman on the central/right role
     as , for me, it was that ( coupled with re-organisation due to Pearce
     coming off and Redknapp's central role ) that was the key to England's
     much improved second half performance. Adams is still giving me concern.
     He seems loathe to hang onto the ball any longer than a few nano-seconds
     before laying it off ( invaribaly to a retreating Ince ).

    Back to the point , and all in all, I think playing Southgate has been
    a brave decision and although he hasn't set the world alight , he has
    had, so far, a very steady tournament.

    Stuart

    
    And what is the news on Redknapp?
    
    Please...

           <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER54:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
    >And what is the news on Redknapp?
    
    Well, the only source I have is an Italian newspaper (!), which states
    that Platt, Ince, Adams and Redknapp all have injury problems.
    Redknapp's injury is a sprained ankle, but fortunately it appears to be
    less serious than it originally seemed to be the case. He'll definitely
    miss the Dutch game, but he should be fit for the quarter-finals
    onwards (now there's presumption for you ;-))
    
    I've just been stuuned to hear that in order to determine who qualifies
    for the second stage of the competition, the result of the direct
    confrontation between teams is taken into account BEFORE goal
    difference. This makes England's position all the stronger given that
    either Sitzerland or Scotland will have to win (and England will have
    to lose) for England NOT to progress to the quarter finals.
    
    At least, that's the result of my calculations...
    
    Dom
    
 P.S. As regards Southgate, I agree that his situation hasn't been helped
    by the fact that Gazza, Ince and even Sherringham at times seem to want
    to play just in front of the defence. No wonder there seem to be all too
    few attacking options going forward. On several occasions, Southgate
    seemed to be afraid of treading on the toes of others, and I often
    recall him pushing forward ahead of Gascoigne...probably out of sheer
    desperation. 

Sitting in a Zurich flat, I can only agree with the comments about the 
atmosphere on Saturday - the noise was deafening. Unusually for an 
England-Scotland game, it seemed to be the English making the most noise as 
well. Though during the first half they couldn't have been watching the same 
game I was.

Unbelievable 2 mins of football to decide the result. The penalty shouldn't 
have been given (but Adams didn't protest!), Seaman fails to get out of the 
way of McAllister's shot, the ball's sent back into the box for an England 
free-kick, hoofed upfield and on to Gascoigne. Fairy-tale stuff . . . 

Now all we need is a Scotland-Switzerland 0-0, and we're through!

grahame

>Unbelievable 2 mins of football to decide the result. The penalty shouldn't 
>have been given (but Adams didn't protest!), 
    
Interesting tendency, this (some mght say "disturbing"!). I noticed that no
    one protested about the penalty against Pearce in the Swiss game
    either. I personally would have given the penalty against Pearce (OK,
    we've already been into that), but I did think Adams was rather hard
    done by. I wonder if this sets some sort of a record for a host nation
    in a major championship (i.e. penalties given against them in both
    their first two matches) ;-) 
    
>the ball's sent back into the box for an England free-kick, 
    >hoofed upfield and on to Gascoigne. Fairy-tale stuff . . . 
     ^^^^^^
    
    I don't think this quite does justice to Anderton's pass, Grahame,
    which was sheer class (unless you're referring to whoever "hoofed" it 
    upfield to Anderton ;-)).
    
    By the way, the Dutch are anything but a united team at the moment.
    Davids has been sent home, Seedorf's parents (!) have threatened 
    similar action, and there seems to be a huge rift dividing the players
    at the moment. Rather disturbingly, it seems to be a racial thing (i.e.
    Davids, Seedorf, Reizinger, Kluivert vs. Blind, de Boer, Witschge).
    Maybe one of our Dutch noters can give us the real inside stuff, given
    that I'm loathe to believe 90% of what I read in the English/Italian
    newspapers (the Grauniad being the notable ecksepshun).
    
    Dom 

>    I don't think this quite does justice to Anderton's pass, Grahame,
>    which was sheer class (unless you're referring to whoever "hoofed" it 
>    upfield to Anderton ;-)).
    
Hi Dom,

Yes, fair comment. I was referring to the free-kick. I've been wondering who
made the pass to Gascoigne, guessed it might have been Anderton, but found
that hard to believe as he hardly put a foot right all day! You're right, it
was a great pass. 

grahame (also looking forward to hearing the Dutch side of things)

    Must admit I'm looking forward to watching England v Holland - is it 
    on ITV or BBC? With any luck its the good ol' Beeb and Barry Davies.
    If Holland score, we may geet to hear his 'totally-unplanned-off-the
    cuff' shreik -  "The futures bright! The futures Orange!" 
    
    Great stuff - how can he top it? I reckon he's got another corker
    lined up should Bergkamp, Jordi or Kluivert net for those orange-clad
    Dutch.
    
    "Venables, England, Gazza - you know when you've been Tangoed!"
    
    Andy
    

    An unusual situation here in Scotland. For the Scots to qualify they
    must beat the Swiss by 2 or 3 goals (unlikely) and England must beat
    the Dutch, so the Scots will be cheering the English on, for once....
    
    OR....
    
    if Holland are beating England then Scotland will probably start
    supporting the Swiss!...an interesting night ahead in the pub....
    
    Ray....

Why didn't Craig Brown pick Mel Gibson?

Stuart

    >>Why didn't Craig Brown pick Mel Gibson?
    
    Is there a punchline for this one, Stuart?
    
    
    		Stretch.
    

  <<< Note 560.131 by CHEFS::CROSSA "Opel Manta for sale - Call 7830 2919" >>>

>    >>Why didn't Craig Brown pick Mel Gibson?
    
>    Is there a punchline for this one, Stuart?
    
    
      Stretch,

      Last year a fillum was released called Braveheart - with me so far?
      This was a complete work of fiction about a Scot called William
      Wallace who went around bashing the English. OK? Unfortunately the
      director couldn't get Sean Connery or either of the Krankies to play 
      the part,   so , rather amusingly, they gave the role to an Australian
      ( Mel Gibson ). On the run up to last Saturday's match, I encountered
      many Scots "giving it large" about Mr Wallace's exploits  and how
      the Scottish team were going to do the same to El Veg's mob.

      I hope that clears things up for you.


     Stuart

    No, being the short answer then!
    
    
    
    			Stretch.

    having only seen brief portions of Braveheart on video I believe that
    England lost because they didn't play enough Tottenham players a
    mistake El Tel doesn't seem to be making.
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    some guy called Shearer (:==:) gave England the lead with a penalty
    after 22 mins

    mel gibson and his mates 1 switzerland 0 
    ally mcoist (now why didn't he play against england) after 37 mins

    sheringham 51 mins and 62 mins and shearer yet again on 57 mins 
    4-1 eventually.
    
    scotland won 1-0
    
    I guess holland still go through due to the UEFA coeficient thingy

    
    
     Typical Scotland, England do us a favour and whit happens, they cannae
    score another couple of goals against the Swiss. Whit a pisser.
    
     Out yet again as the Dutch scored more goals than Scotland.
    
    Danny.

    
    England were AWESOME, Scotland blew it!  I commented to my mate (who
    is French) that (at 4-0) this must be the only occassion when the Scots
    have cheered for the English.
    
    I thought England were AWESOME going forward, but looked someone slack
    in defence.  Having said that it was a combination of good defending
    and luck which kept the Dutch from scoring until very late in the game
    (by when England appeared bored).
    
    Ian

 A great goal by Ally McCoist was just enough for Scotland to hang
 onto their 100% record in major competitions.


 England looked a bit tidy last night - but there's still a long way to go.

 Stuart

At last - revenge for 1988!

g

    
    Great performance last night. England put in the best display of
    attacking football that I can remember. Though the Dutch thoughly deserved
    there equaliser :-).
    
    We now play Spain in the Quarter finals on Saturday 3:00 if they put
    in a performance like last night, the semi's here we come.
    
    Football's coming home, the jocks are going home. Great night.
    
    Neil.

    
    The best performance by an England side in a competitive match since
    Noah was a boy. Good passing, good use of all the team to build the
    play and great finishing by Shearer and Sheringham. Good tactical
    awareness too by Venners to use Teddy in a deeper role to restrict
    Blind's forward runs.
    
    The difficulty now is getting carried away - the format now switches to
    a cup competition and anything could happen. England will be without
    Ince (two yellow cards) and it looks odds on that Platt will take his
    place. Personally, I'd rather see Redknapp in there if he's fit.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    re. 104
    
    	"Holland will walk it", I said.
    
    	But then again I don't know a lot about football as I am a Brighton
    	Supporter.
    
    	dickie.

I proffer note .59 as evidence of my Guru Status.

    
    Mmmm, not a bad display....nah...excellent attitude by all of
    England's players. I listened to David Mellor's phone in and was amazed
    that so many think England will win the tournament based upon last
    night's performance. Some idiot even related England's performance to a
    Poker game and holding back until the right time....well it seems to me
    that was exactly what Holland were doing last night...though I must
    admit they almost blew it. I expect the Germans to adopt a similar
    approach tonight to the Dutch.
    
    	Spain look 'tough'...and are starting to get into gear...England
    will do very well to beat them. France could be lulled in by Holland's
    performance last night but this manager they have is a bit too cute to
    be caught on that one...potential for a very entertaining game.
    
    
    Dezzz.
    
    	

    Stunning display, I thought the score display had gone wrong at 4-0 to
    England(!) I know I was a pished, but not that much. 
    
    As long as they keep the head we should survive the Spanish encounter  
    without too many problems. A big worry, as Jeff says, is going to be
    Ince' suspension, Platt does not seem to have the physical presence
    that has helped so much in the last two games England have played.
    
    
    And I bet the presss are giving it much "tongues up the
    bums" today! F***ing hypocrites!!!! 
       		
    
    
    			Stretch.

    Excellent display by the English team, if they can keep their heads and
    not listen to the expected hyperbole from the gutter press then they
    could go far....
    
    Scotland?..what can you say?!!! McCoist misses two absolute sitters
    from inside the 6 yard box and then scores a stunner from 25 yards!!!!
    That just about says it all about last night's game. I thought that
    Collins was the star again for Scotland. What a loss to Celtic!...
    
    Ray....
    
    ps....I still say that if Italy can get by Germany tonight then they
    will go on to win the tournament....

    >ps....I still say that if Italy can get by Germany tonight then they
    >will go on to win the tournament....
    
    	Well overall Italy 'have' played the most stunning football...only
    Portugal in their first game have come close....
    In fact that could well be a good final if they miss each other in the
    quarter finals.
    
    Dezzz.
     

    Re -1
    
    How can you say Italy have played the best football? They were very
    poor against the Czechs and were pretty fortunate against Russia.
    Overall I reckon the standard has been pretty even, led by the Germans,
    with the French, Portuguese and England looking good in patches. 
    
    Equally, how you can say the Dutch were playing kiddology last night
    seems a little awry too. They were torn apart in the second half and
    only scored when England dozed off. They started with pretty much their
    first choice side (bar possibly Kliuvert) and were given a lesson in
    finishing and creative play around the box.
    
    My current bet is on an England v Germany final, subject to the Germans
    leading their group after tonight.
    
    Paul

    Stuart,
    
    The Dutch did not have the first choice team last night - Davids,
    Overmars, F.De Boer and Kluivert missing. 
    
    
    
    			Stretch.

>    My current bet is on an England v Germany final, subject to the Germans
>    leading their group after tonight.
    
I think it can only be a final if Germany lose tonight.

Much as I enjoyed last night, I can still remember too many 'dozy patches' 
we've had: second half v Switzerland, first half v Scotland to get 
overconfident. Spain are unpredictable as well - they'll probably play better 
than they've done so far. But what the hell - all we need is 3 more nights like 
last night . . .

What I saw of Swiss commentary last night seemed to be a mixture of shock, 
disappointment, and lynch mob - Jorge is back in the dog-house again. Though 
someone I work with has already mentioned the next game is Azerbaidjan in the 
World Cup, so at least they're looking forward!

grahame

btw, I'd have thought it was pretty obvious Kluivert isn't first choice - and 
maybe that's where they went wrong last night.

    Stretch - please don't call me Stuart. He's balder and is in OMS, not a
    nice sort of person. My name is Paul!
    
    As for those players - they had the first choice of those players
    available. Overmars & F De Boer are injured, Davids is a prat and
    Kluivert came on anyway. 
    
    By the same token we were missing Le Saux, Jones & Pallister (well
    maybe not, apart from Le Saux!)
    
    
    PAUL - Got that ---- PAUL

    Re -1
    
    Yup - The Wembley Semi is Eng/Spain vs Winner C/Runner Up D
    
    Either way it looks like Germany at Wembley some time (hopefully)
    
    Paul

    Totally agree with the last note! England will get to the final and
    will proabaly face the germans, But after the way we destoryed the
    dutch defense I can say; whole heartedly, we can beat the Germans
    aswell! IF we play with the same spirit and style as we did last night!
    
    
    Another point I feel a bit sorry for the jocks! They deserved to go
    through, But England did the job for them they only needed one more
    goal! a shame really!!
    
    Mike.w
     

    >How can you say Italy have played the best football? They were very
    >poor against the Czechs and were pretty fortunate against Russia.
    
    Er...I think they're pulling your (our?) leg, Paul. Even the Italians
    admit that they've played good football in spells in both matches.
    Russia had them on the rack in the first half, and Czechoslovakia
    really showed up their weakspots. All credit to a 10-man Italy for 
    taking the game to the Czechs, but the very fact that the Italian
    press made Peruzzi MOTM says it all about the way the Czechs kept
    hitting them on the break....
    
    No, I think England were as devestating last night as they were abysmal
    against Switzerland. I was the first to criticise England against the
    Swiss (2nd half) and the Scots (1st half), but I couldn't really find
    fault last night. You had the impression that if England had needed
    to win 8-0 to qualify, they would have managed it! And if there's a
    team that's been long due a thrashing from England, then it's the
    Dutch. Actually, the Dutch did lose heart after the third goal, and
    they gave a pretty poor account of themselves in the second half (great
    goal by Kluivert, though; Bergkamp showed what he is capable of with
    that pass).
    
    What really struck me about England was the perfect balance of the
    team. Ten outfield players with totally different characteristics, and
    all perfectly integrated into the overall strategy. Gascoigne never
    ceases to amaze by the ease with which he wrongfoots players (I see
    Seedorf and Winter week in-week out in the Italian league and they are
    CLASS, but last night he made them look stupid); Sherringham must be
    one of the most intelligent players in international football;
    McManaman can run any fullback ragged (can I not wait to see Maldini
    seated on his backside!) and Ince's dynamism last night made it seem
    like England had a 2 or 3 man advantage!
    
    The defence looked pretty sound too. Neville looks like he's been
    playing international football for years, and Adams reall leads by
    example. Southgate had a few problems with Bergkamp (a lot of defenders
    do!), but came through very well in the end; playing centre-back
    requires perfect concentration for 90 minutes and it's not an eassy
    role, but Southgate's starting to look the park (damn quick too!).
    
    Actually, it's a pity to name names becuase they all played well. Fool
    marks to El Tel for sticking to his guns, and making just a few little
    tactical adjustments to beat the Dutch.
    
    Hard luck on Scotland - I doubt if the Scots will be disappointed with
    what they've achieved, and I'm sure they came closer to qualifying than
    they could have hoped before the competition began.
    
    Still a long way to go, but I doubt if any team relishes meeting
    England now, especially since the press/public are finally behind the
    team.
    
    Dom                                 

    
    Unbelievavble performance from England last night, easily the best I've 
    ever seen an England team play. Cool heads required now, Spain will be a 
    tough game, and the nation now expects...
    
    The reality is, we can win this tournement, if we can continue to play
    as we did last night.
    
    Dave...
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Just a mention for Seaman who made an outstanding save from Bergkamp
    with the score at 1-0. The commentary failed to give him the credit he
    deserved IMHO.
    
    
    j.
    
    

    
    Someone mentioned it a while back, it needs confirming, if Germany
    finish top of their group tonight (assuming all other things equal like
    quarter final victories), England will meet them in the Semi-Final, and
    then France in the Final!
    
    Ian

    If England beat Spain they play the winner of the qtr between the top
    team in Germany's group and the second team in the Croatian group in
    the SF.
    
    The winner of the Holland/France qtr plays the winner of the runner up
    in Germanys group vs the winner of Croatia's group
    
    Paul

   Holland were labelled 'the laughing    
   stock of Euro 96' by the nation's      
   best-selling newspaper Telegraaf today 
   after their 4-1 mauling by England.    
                                                                       
   'Shocking, bewildering, disgraceful and
    scandalous,' it went on, adding:       
    'Never has a team appeared so keen to  
    be dumped out of a tournament. The     
    Dutch team is the joke of Euro 96.'    
                                                                       
    Last night's defeat was Holland's      
    heaviest for 21 years.                 
                                                                       
   'Dutch dull guests at English soccer   
    party,' said broadsheet De Volkskrant, 
    recalling the last time the Dutch lost 
    by three goals - in Poland in 1975.    
                                

    
    This weeks Capital radio version of " Football's coming home " should 
    become the new national anthem...The JP in full effect, its brilliant, 
    Jonathan Pearce was going wild on Tuesday.
    
    Tried to get tickets for the Spain game yesterday, no joy. The phone
    lines were jammed....all this Football fever, what will it be like if
    we get through to the Final..????
    
    Dave...
    

    
    
    Heard a couple of funnies this week that brought a smile to my face.
    
     "The futures bright its certainly not orange"
     
    Have you noticed that Rab C Nesbitt and Graig Brown are never on TV at
    the same time ???
    
    Pj

Swiss Radio is reporting that Artur Jorge, after all of 6 months as Swiss 
Trainer, is having talks with FC Porto. At least he won't get slagged off for 
not speaking German . . .

grahame

    Its good to see English fans supporting their team at last.How many
    years has it been since they last supported their team? ABOUT 30.
    Good time CRAP "fans".

    Come on VYGER::ROBBK, you've had a week to get over the fact that
    Ingerland put the qualification on a plate for your boys...and they
    still decided to keep with tradition and go out after the first round.
    Liek most Englishmen, I was genuinely sorry (kinda strange how we feel
    more affinity with the Scots than with the Dutch), but the pathetic
    bleating of some you of you guys in the last couple of days has cheered
    me up.
    
    >Its good to see English fans supporting their team at last.How many
    >years has it been since they last supported their team? ABOUT 30.
    >Good time CRAP "fans".
    
    So which annoys you most: when we get behind our team, or when we DON'T
    get behind our team? Enquiring minds...
    
    Dom

    .165
    
    VYGER::ROBBK
    
    Jealousy will get you nowhere.
    
    
    CHARLEY

In all fairness Dom , the xenophobic articles in some of the 
English tabloids are disgusting and would make any "Foreigner" sick. 
First it was the attacks on the Spanish now the Krau... I mean Germans. 
The bigotry within the media was the top Story on the Chanel 4 News yesterday. 
The Mirror declared War on Germany , front page photo of Gascoigne and 
Sheringham in Tin hats ready to go over the top to fight Gerry. Blitz 
the Fritz , and worse !
If the rest of the world ( with the exception of the English and a few like 
myself who are preparded to ignore this crap ) want the Germans to win
well then the English have no one to blame but their media and themselves.

I agree with VYGER::ROBBK to a certain extent about the bandwagon. 
England couldn't manage a full house a Wembely prior to the Swiss game. 
Out of a population of how many football supporters ?
The stadiums are half full for games involving "Foreigners". I thought 
football was the national sport. Before anyone else says it I know ticket
prices were high but that still isn't an excuse.

What we must realise is that this isn't about football any more.
It's about BSE, pork sausages, Euro sceptics , "The War" ( we
won but the Krauts and Japs are wealthier than us ) ,an ailing nation 
on the brink of colapse desperatly searching for a common thread to unite it.

Maybe finding that common thread isn't a bad thing but if that thread is
used to stitch up English Nationality in the wrong way I'm afraid the 
prospect of anything other that deeper divide between the English and the 
rest of Europe is on the cards.

Peter.

    
    
     re last,
    
     Well said, better watch your note isn't set hidden, it's a bit too
    sensible for this topic.
    
    Danny.

    Well, I can't comment on much of this, Peter, because I'm no longer
    resident in the UK. However, my impression whenever I'm back there
    (about once or twice a year) is that most people under the age of 40
    don't go in for the xenophobia thing at all (witness the result of the
    local elections in Tower Hamlets a couple of years ago - there's no
    country in Western Europe with a weaker nationalist party than
    Britain).
    
    Quite honestly, what the tabloids print is of little or no interest to
    me. I pity the people who buy them (maybe doing a paper round in my
    teens made me immune to whatever they have to offer!) and I'd hate to
    think that anyone attaches much importance to them. However, I can
    assure you that there are similar organs in all European countries with
    which I have any sort of familiarity. More fool Gascoigne and
    Sherringham for being conned into posing for the photo (for a few extra
    quid), but is it really so different from a Norwegian commentator
    blurting "...Lord Nelson, Winston Churchill - your boys took one hell
    of a beating!"?
    
    If I were to take offence at all the anti-Brit remarks directed my way
    since I've been abroad, I'd probably have thrown myself into one of 
    Milan's canals by now. Instead, I take consolation in the fact that
    *most* fair-minded Italians (Frenchmen, Spaniards...) are as disgusted
    by xenophobia as I am.
    
>If the rest of the world ( with the exception of the English and a few like 
>myself who are preparded to ignore this crap ) want the Germans to win
>well then the English have no one to blame but their media and themselves.
    
    Er...aren't we rather exagerating a point here? Let me just say that
    there is a world outside of Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Talk of
    sticking your head in the sand!
    
>I agree with VYGER::ROBBK to a certain extent about the bandwagon. 
>England couldn't manage a full house a Wembely prior to the Swiss game. 
>Out of a population of how many football supporters ?
    
    Agreed. But the national team has never attracted great support in
    England - maybe it's because of the accusations of jingoism every time
    someone gets the Union Jack out (or St. George's Cross) ;-) Seriously,
    when I hear this sort of talk, my mind goes back to 1978 and hordes of
    Scotland supporters singing "...and we'll really shake them up when we
    win the World Cup, cuz Scotland are the greatest football team!"
    
    Pity the tune/words changed to "We want our money back..." a few weeks
    later.
    
    Dom

    Re Gascoigne/Sheringham
    
    The Mirror actually showed Gazza & Pearce and they were paste up
    photos, not real ones.
    
    The wider thing on nationalism is directly rooted in the political
    situation at the moment. We have a very unpopular government, who is
    split down the middle by the whole issue of Europe and constantly seek
    to make a big deal about it. My personal belief is that the majority of
    the country is pretty uninterested in the machinations of the EC, and
    that it is only a news item because the Tory euro-sceptics want it to
    be. The Tories are falling over themselves trying to wrap themselves in
    the Union flag both over Europe and over issues like immigration &
    deportation. They misguidedly (according to the opinion polls) believe
    that this petty xenophobia win them the next election, when in fact
    most people are just fed up with the same old tired faces and want a
    government who care about the people of a country rather than its flag.
    
    Major is also trying to wrap himself in an England shirt at the moment,
    even managing to piss off the Scots by ignoring them! I know the Tories
    aren't exactly well represented in Scotland but he is their Prime
    Minister!
    
    At ground level, Euro 96 has seen a sea change in the face of
    international football in this country. Sure, the fans didn't turn up
    in droves for friendlies, but then neither do club fans turn out for
    friendlies either. Games have to matter to stir interest and the
    current ones do with a vengence. England-Germany in Italia 90 was the
    largest TV audience in UK history (I think - definately for sport) at
    25m+, I reckon Wednesday will be similar. It would be as big if it was
    Italy or France or Croatia. This is a very important game for English
    football and a win would see attendances rise for next season by 5 or
    10% as more people return who were put off by the violent 70s and dull
    80s.
    
    Paul

    >>local elections in Tower Hamlets a couple of years ago - there's no
    >>country in Western Europe with a weaker nationalist party than
    >>Britain).

Come off it. The Tories are probably the greatest Nationalistic party in Europe.
Thatcher , Tebitt , Portillo the majority of the current government and their ilk 
could have been leaders of any extreme right wing party their politics were/are 
so anti-European.

    >>Quite honestly, what the tabloids print is of little or no interest to
    >>me. I pity the people who buy them (maybe doing a paper round in my

I believe you but the fact remains that the circulation of each of these
publications has risen by 100,000 copies a day since England beat Scotland.

    >>quid), but is it really so different from a Norwegian commentator
    >>blurting "...Lord Nelson, Winston Churchill - your boys took one hell
    >>of a beating!"?

Yeah but if the English media have set the Norwegians up as Herring fishermen
and reindeer shaggers what do you expect.

>If the rest of the world ( with the exception of the English and a few like 
>myself who are preparded to ignore this crap ) want the Germans to win
>well then the English have no one to blame but their media and themselves.
    
    >>Er...aren't we rather exagerating a point here? Let me just say that
    >>there is a world outside of Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Talk of
    >>sticking your head in the sand!

But I'm not talking about the British Isles I'm literally talking about the 
world.  Is there a Nation that the English have not offended at some stage ?

Peter

re: 171

Excellent note Paul.

I agree wholeheartedly with every word

>Come off it. The Tories are probably the greatest Nationalistic party in 
    >Europe. Thatcher , Tebitt , Portillo the majority of the current government
    >and their ilk could have been leaders of any extreme right wing party 
    their politics were/are so anti-European.
    
    Vomit-inducing as they may be, they're still way left of Alleanza
    Nazionale and Forza Italia in Italy. Gianfranco Fini, the head of AN,
    actually postponed visiting Britain after the right came to power here
    two years ago, because he'd been warned about the reaction he'd get in
    London. (He'd have done better to listen too, given that his car got
    smashed to pieces and he was accused by a Labour politician of being
    "Mussolini dressed by Giorgio Armani"!)
    
>But I'm not talking about the British Isles I'm literally talking about the 
>world. Is there a Nation that the English have not offended at some stage ?
     
    Austria, apparently ;-) 
    
    Seriously, you could level exactly the same criticism against the
    French, the Germans, the Italians, the Americans, and (probably to a 
    lesser extent) the Russians.
    
    Can't believe we're having this conversation...
    
    Dom
    

>>Can't believe we're having this conversation...

Yeah , specially seeing as I'm still supporting England.

Peter( You know )

    
    Note .168 has reminded me (and I did need reminding) that there are
    still some Englishmen who DO give a toss about the world outside England.
    
   >>In all fairness Dom , the xenophobic articles in some of the 
   >>English tabloids are disgusting and would make any "Foreigner" sick. 
    
    If I was was a real foreigner, I wouldn't mind.  But living in
    Scotland (i.e. the UK), I'm subjected to the 'British' broadcasting
    companies' (TV and Radio) xenophobic saturation coverage of every detail
    and angle partaining to England's progress to the semi-finals.  
    I like Chris Evans on Radio 1 in the morning, but this week he has
    managed to give the expression "over the top" a whole new dimension.
    
    Believe it or not, I'm usually indifferent to the results of England's
    football team, but I'm *praying* for a German victory tonight to put an
    end to this circus. 
    
    
    Michael
    

Give it a rest lads !
That's yesterdays's news. Today is about football !

    
    re .177
    
    Not really, todays Chris Evans show started with God Save The Old Tart,
    Rule Brittannia and Three Lions, not alot to do with football there!!!
    
    Danny.

    
    Oi! You folk north of the Hadrians Wall....you guys don't live in
    Germany...If Germany win coupled with a double of Boris and Steffi at
    Wimbledon...I'm off....in fact I'll be in glorious Cornwall by the time
    this can come to fruition....
    
    	The German media can be just as nausious about their successes...in
    fact what would suit me right down to ground would be a Czech
    victory...
    
       Dezzz.

    
    
    But you choose to live in Germany Dezz - and all that goes with it.
    
    I don't live in England, but we just can't avoid all the crap.
    
    Michael

    
    And I recall reading that there are many people living and working in
    Holland who are now happy that the Dutch team are out of the
    tournament and things can return to normal.
    
    Why not 'jump on the bandwagon' of England's success in this
    tournament, why not support the team even if we don't normally, why not
    fill the ground and sing and shout for the team.
    
    I'm sure each nation is basically the same and if the team (be it
    soccer, cricket, rugby, handball, ice hockey etc) is doing well then
    people will support them MORE and MORE.
    
    I'll be happy to see England play well, and beat Germany tonight.  I'll
    also be happy to see France win, since that's where I'm living.
    
    IAn

    Virgin Radio's breakfast show was hilarious this morning. They played
    `Three Lions' but mixed in parts of the Fawlty Towers `Germans'
    episode....a scream....
    
    Ray....

    >But living in Scotland (i.e. the UK), I'm subjected to the 'British' 
    >broadcasting companies' (TV and Radio) xenophobic saturation coverage of 
    >every detail and angle partaining to England's etc. etc.
    
    If it were Scotland in the semi and the above occured, I'm sure you
    would voice your distaste just as voiciferously. 
    
    The English had to put up with it in 1978. Why can't you put up with it
    now?
    
    It's jealousy and nothing else.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    re -1
    
    ok i'll fall for it. What happened in 1978 that the English had to
    suffer ?

    That was when the Jocks qualified for Argentina and got beat by Iran
    and Peru.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
    and when the home of football failed to qualify, as in 1974.
    
    Danny.

    But we progress past the first round when we do.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    This note is getting boring can we return to football ie what will TV's
    selection be or Germany's stratergy.. etc etc.
    
    All this handbags at 30 paces is getting us nowhere.....
    
    Pj

    re .183
    
    I think you've missed my point.  Why don't you go visit the author of
    note.168 and ask if you can borrow his brain for half an hour?
    
    I'll try to keep this simple.   In the unlikely event that Scotland did
    make it to the semis, it would be covered in Trevor McDonald's "and
    finally" section at the end of News at Ten.  But I don't expect you to
    appreciate the bias because you don't really know that it exists.
    
    Typical example:  On the night when Scotland secured a highly
    significant 0-0 draw against Russia in Moscow, hence making these
    finals a real possibility, England played a friendy at Wembley (where
    esle?) against I can't remember who.  The BBC 9:00 news showed some
    highlights of the English game, the goals, after-match comments from TB
    etc.   They then gave the Scotland Russia score, and moved on.
    
    In the guise of the BBC, they broadcast English news to the whole of 
    the UK.
    
    Regards,
    Michael
    
    

    >some highlights of the English game, the goals, after-match comments
    
    As it was 0 - 0 there were no goals to show, hence no after-match
    comments.            
    
    
    CHARLEY

    And by the way, during the group section matches there was just as much
    footage of the Scottish camp broadcast by the BBC and ITV as there was for
    England.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    re .187
    
    Yeah but you usually have 8-12 years of preparation as you only qualify
    every second or third World Cup ;-)
    
    Gerry

    
    They think it's all over....
    
    
    IT IS NOW !

    
    In fairness England finally got what they deserved last night. With
    the exception of the Dutch game they've ridden their luck and it
    finally ran out against the German reserves. 
    
    Against the Swiss they were fortunate to end up with a point. Against
    Scotland, had McAllister converted the penalty they quite possibly would 
    have ended up losing that match. In the quarters the Spanish played
    them off the park, had a perfectly good goal dissallowed and a stone-wall 
    penalty waved away. 
    
    Had it not been for David Seaman they wouldn't have made it out the
    section.
    
    Del.
    
    ps. Guess you'll just have to shout about '66 for another 30 or so years !

    I think you forgot the ;)

    re: -1
    What a class act the Scots are! (Maybe the fact that you're still
    noting in 560 [qualifying round, group A] just serves to underline how
    out of touch with the rest of the world you guys are!). At least the
    comments of Craig Brown, Ally McCoist and Stuart McCall (and perhaps
    others) show that the words "sportsmanship" and "Scotland" aren't
    contradictions in terms...but you seem determined to undo that.  
    
    >ps. Guess you'll just have to shout about '66 for another 30 or so years !

    Don't kid yourself - life has taken on a whole new meaning since the
    15th June 1996! By the way, has Mr. Hendrie finished cleaning the egg
    off his face yet? ;-)

    
    
     Whats the problem here, 99% of Liverpool fans want Everton to loose all
    the time, same as ManU/ManC, Rangers/Celtic, Arsenal/Spurs etc etc.
    Why is there a big problem over Scotland fans wanting Engerland to
    loose all the time? 
    
    FWIW, I thought England deserved to win the game last night but lost
    out on penalties. Thats football, Spain deserved to win on Saturday
    but lost out on penalties. Some you win, some you loose.
    
    Danny.

    >Whats the problem here, 99% of Liverpool fans want Everton to loose all
    >the time, same as ManU/ManC, Rangers/Celtic, Arsenal/Spurs etc etc.
    >Why is there a big problem over Scotland fans wanting Engerland to
    >loose all the time? 
    
    No problem at all, Danny. But as you'll surely admit, most England fans 
    want Scotland to win, and that's probably why they can't understand why 
    the Scots seem to take more delight in England losing than Scotland
    winning.
    
    And *that* is where your comparisons with Liverpool/Everton, etc. fall
    through. Because if I was Scottish, I'd feel a bit embarassed that no
    one had the guts to enter a note in here after England beat Scotland.
    Instead, your mob wait another ten days for England to go out of the
    tournament and then let rip.
    
    Oh well, it al, evens out in the end: I suppose we have the Daily Mirror 
    and John Major & co. to feel embarassed about...
    
    Dom

    
    
    Dom,
    
    "the Scots seem to take more delight in England losing than Scotland
     winning"
    
    I take more delight seeing Scotland win than England loose. The only
    problem is, Scotland never progress pass the first round, so once their
    out, we all want to see England lose, for reasons that probably have
    little to do with football, more to do with the attitude of elements
    of the press and media.
    
    As for the England/Scotland game, I thought England were in control for
    the first 15 minutes of the second half, the rest of the game was
    pretty even. The most galling thing about missing out by 1 goal is that
    France were crap in the q/final, I really reckon Scotland would have
    beaten them and who knows, could have done something against the
    Czechs.
    
    Danny.

    
    Ah shut it lads ...this conversation is just getting Toooooooo much.
    
    Dezzz.

    Ah well, it's all over.
    
    Just like 1990 our boys done us proud and we can stand up with hand on
    heart and say the tournament winners had to rely on luck to beat us and
    were not the best side in it.
    
    By the way, England are better than Scotland at football.
    
    
    CHARLEY$moral_winners

    >I take more delight seeing Scotland win than England loose. The only
    >problem is, Scotland never progress pass the first round, so once their
    >out, we all want to see England lose, for reasons that probably have
    >little to do with football, more to do with the attitude of elements
    >of the press and media.
    
    I can sympathize with your despisal of John Major for donning an
    England shirt; the man is English (unfortunately!), but he should be
    sufficently responsible to realise that he also represents the other
    "peoples" of the UK. Likewise, I don't doubt that Jimmy Hill and his
    ilk go over the top at times (he always did when I was living in the
    UK, so I doubt if he's got better with time!)
    
    That said, I never had much trouble guessing who Archie McPhersson or
    Bill McClaren were rooting for! And believe me, I've met plenty of Scots
    who seem capable of talking for hours about how an inhabitant of 
    Lanarkshire rolls his r's (no, not his arse!) or why the beer in Aberdeen 
    is so different...but have trouble naming the capital of Belgium. 
    Different mindset - I certainly wouldn't dream of letting it affect my 
    passion for something like football. 
    
    Certainly, having grown up in the SE of England, I'm thankful for the
    proximity to the Continent, not to mention the cosmopolitan nature of
    most English cities. 
    
    Dom

    
    
    >>Because if I was Scottish, I'd feel a bit embarassed that no
    >>one had the guts to enter a note in here after England beat Scotland.
    
    
    It wasn't really a question of guts.  I, for one, was totally gutted
    and stunned by what happened against England.  I couldn't trust myself
    that I wouldn't note something for which I might regret - to the point
    that I didn't even READ any notes.
    
    It's a sick feeling isn't it.  When you dominate a match and loose it
    on a penalty.  Now you know.
    
    And by the way, nobody ever claimed we were good loosers.  What was it
    Dalglish said once?  "Show me a good looser and I'll show you a looser".
    
    Michael
    
    

    >It's a sick feeling isn't it.  When you dominate a match and loose it
    >on a penalty.  Now you know.
    
    Er...I think we knew already (June, 1990), but thanks anyway! Btw, which
    match are you referring to?
    
    >And by the way, nobody ever claimed we were good loosers.  What was it
    >Dalglish said once?  "Show me a good looser and I'll show you a looser".
    
    Fine. I don't agree one iota, but fine.
    
    Dom
    

    .199
    
    >I really reckon Scotland would have beaten them and who knows, could have 
    >done something against the Czechs.
    
    Haaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha !
    
    
    >It's a sick feeling isn't it.  When you dominate a match and loose it 
    >on a penalty.  Now you know.
    
    Have I stumbled into an episode of the X files or something? When did
    the Jocks last dominate a match and lose it on a penalty? It certainly
    wasn't against England. 
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    > By the way, England are better than Scotland at football.
    
    
       Half the world are better at football than Scotland. So what!!!
       The truth of the matter is England aint much better.
    
       IC
    
       

    
    
    .202
    
     I really don't have a problem with commentators supporting their "own"
    country, but some do go over the score. I was trying to make a point
    about the media and press.
    
     I'll give an example of what really pisses a lot of people off. On the
    Friday prior to the Spain game, one of the TV breakfast shows had a
    reporter in Spain. The village square had 2 or 3 English owned pubs and
    restuarants with Union Jacks flying. His comment, "this is one part of
    Spain that will be forever England!!!" This was after several days of
    the rag press slagging off Spain, a place where hundreds of thousands
    of English people go each year for their holidays.
    
    Anyway, thats my last note on the topic, lets get back to football!
    
    Danny.
    
    
    ps England ARE better than Scotland at football, I've never disputed
       that.

>and say the tournament winners had to rely on luck to beat us and
>were not the best side in it.
	What about your "luck" against Spain!
	Not to start another referee bashing session, but I think you could
	not really complain yesterday, 1 example being the foul from Platt
	on Freund (who had to leave)...
	
	So as mentioned loads of time, it all evens out, some time in your
	favour, but sadly sometimes against you...

							.Andre.

    
    
    >>Have I stumbled into an episode of the X files or something? When did
    >>the Jocks last dominate a match and lose it on a penalty? It certainly
    >>wasn't against England. 
    
    
    Now did I mention the England game in that context?  Just shows how the
    mind works.   Of course I was refering to the Scotland-England game, but
    I doesn't surprise me that you lot won't consciously acknowledge it.
    
    Sigmund MacFreud.
    
    
    

    >Now did I mention the England game in that context?  Just shows how the
    >mind works.   Of course I was refering to the Scotland-England game, but
    >I doesn't surprise me that you lot won't consciously acknowledge it.
    
    Ye gods...so you were serious then! Actually, we all thought Scotland
    deseved to win 11-0...
    
    Dom

    .209
    
    Yes, the jocks dominated the match so much that the final score
    was.....?
    
    
    CHARLEY$Haaaaaaa_ha_ha_ha

    >The truth of the matter is England aint much better.
    
    We still have this natural ability to get past the first round in major
    tournaments.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    <<We still have this natural ability to get past the first round in
    major tournaments.
    
    Yeah , right !!!!     Its just the qualifying bit in the first place 
    that gives you the problems.
    
     "As for the English wanting the scots to do well"--- What utter crap!!
     Some people do talk out their crevice at times.
    
     
     Football,s  coming home, its coming home --      NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!    
      
     
                                                                           

     >"Fritz blitz the Brits"
        
    I don't think you should really be noting in this conference as,
    judging from the above, it is obvious you know sod all about
    football. Ironic that, you being a Jock as well.
        
        
    >Its just the qualifying bit in the first place that gives you the
    problems.
        
    I'd rather not qualify than put up a p**s poor performance in the
    tournament itself. The Scots are experts at that.
        
            
     
    CHARLEY

    Did anyone listen to Chris Evans this morning??? No more 3 lions on a
    shirt!! instead we were treated to the beatles:
    
    Yesterday
    All my troubles seemed so far away
    and so was Southgates penalty
    Oh I believe in yesterday
    
    I noticed something about Scots not been sporting... That booing must
    have been a lowflying aircraft when germany were on there lap of honour
    and not what I mistakingly took as bad losers. 
    
    And what about the commentary on ITV Seamen went from being a good
    goalkeeper at the kickoff, half way through he was promoted to keeper
    of the tournament and as we approached penalties it was suggested that 
    the germans might view Seamen as being superhuman. (Id have though you had
    enough with David Ike but obviously one superhuman son of god goalkeeper 
    isnt enough) Still you could see the fear in the germans eyes as they
    walloped their 6 penaltys past him.  

    >I noticed something about Scots not been sporting...
    
    Judging by most of the Jock notes in here, that would seem to be the
    case. The hypocrisy of it is the Jocks loving it when England got beat
    in the semi finals when their "team" couldn't get past the first round.
    
    
    CHARLEY$haaaaa_ha_ha

    I for one wanted nothing more than for the english to win last night.
    As I sat back with 6 pack of becks and a few left over bottles of san
    miguel from wednesday I longed to see shearer hit a hatrick like my
    hero hirst did in 66. I would have appealed for offside on the german
    goal had I not been at that time removing a piece of frankfurter from
    my teeth and would have been truly gutted as anderton hit the post had
    I not just nipped out in the old VW to pick up some black Forrest
    Gateau from the all night service station. I would have sighed with
    heavy heart at gascoignes near miss had I made it in from the old VW to
    the car in time but the old knees started playing up as my nose started
    bleeding forcing me to walk in to the house with straight legs head
    held high and one finger at base of nose to prevent blood loss. I
    hammered on the door to get in time for that hard man of soccer
    peirce's penalty but i couldnt make myself heard over the sound of
    Beethovens 9th symphony blaring out. I finally got into see kopke save 
    the penalty (although Southgate had hit his painfully weak attempt while I
    was still outside).And sat with dejection crying into my bowl of sour-kraut
    as that Moller slammed home the penalty. So dont acuse us Jocks of wanting 
    England to lose. Im as gutted as the man beside me (and I mean that
    sincerely) over the result.   
    
    

    So you hope to get past the first round in the next World Cup then?
    
    
    CHARLEY

    as long as we dont have to suffer 32 years of hurt
    and the 32nd anniversary of that glorious summer afternoon I dont
    really care.
    How are you planning on qualifying ?? Nipping through the tunnel the
    month before it, Annexing France and trying to qualify as hosts again??
    It may seem remote but it could be your best chance

    
    
    >>So you hope to get past the first round in the next World Cup then?
    
    
    Hey Charley, thanks for that vote of confidence that we'll qualify for
    France 98.   Hope your lot can defy the record books and get there
    this time, so we can avenge Wembley'96!
    
    Michael
    

    >Hope your lot can defy the record books and get there this time, so we 
    >can avenge Wembley'96!
    
    I suggest you double check the record books.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    If Southgate had hit his penalty as hard as he hit Durie's face with
    his elbow,England could still be in the championship!
      England won the fair play award(what a lot of b******s)Southgate
    should have been jailed for that assualt.So it was only justice that he
    should be the prat to miss the penalty.
      Also,it was good to see the English fans taking defeat in their
    usual sporting manner.
      So i suppose the English media will just have to resort to the usual
    nonsense about some game 30 years ago that they won 2-2.Talking about
    that game "there's people on the pitch.....",the German keeper did not
    know whether to run for his life or try and save the shot and we all
    know how england got the third goal the russian linesman,soon after the
    tournament was finished,was able to buy a new Dacha on the black sea
    coast!
      Did you see that pathetic bow tie Jimmy Hill had on last night and
    when "the elbow" missed that penalty Barry Davies(giving his usual
    objective opinion)shouted OH NO!! I swear i could hear many Jocks
    shouting OH YESSSSS!!!!!!
    
    p.s before you all barf into your warm bitter 1 am a
    sorry,bitter,twisted person!
    
    p.p.s Germany,god bless you!
    
    
    

    
    
... Also,it was good to see the English fans taking defeat in their
... usual sporting manner.
    
    Just as sporting as the Germans did about their victory. Ask the
    people in Bremen, Stuttgart and Offenbach. It's been said enough times.
    This hasn't got anything to do with football.
    
    Paul
        

    RE .166 
    
     DEAR DOM,
         
          In reference to your comments about taking a week to get over a
    defeat,i thought i might have heard from you by now!
        Talk about "the pot calling the kettle black".Talks cheap and so
    are those sort of comments! Hope to hear from you soon.
    

    
    What is your problem....most England fans came in with a decent reply
    on the game and took it on the chin. What more is there to say.
    
    There is one thing I would like to point out though.....and that is how
    fickle the Scots are when it comes to support....most Scots I've spoken
    to were cheering the German team on Wednesday night as if they were
    their long lost brothers but come Sunday the majority of them will be
    supporting the Czech Republic.
    
    Dezzz.

    
       EURO 96 QUESTIONAIRE
       --------------------
    
                               
     1/  Did Southgate leave wembley stadium on wednesday by --
    
         A    The Northgate
         B    The Southgate
         C    The Eastgate
         D    The Westgate
      OR  the backdoor with a wig and glasses on.
    
    
     2/  Is it true Tony Adams is still at Wembley waiting to take a
         penalty kick ?
    
     3/  Is it true Tony Adams failed a dope test and no drugs were
         involved ?
    
     4/  Who scored the winning penalty for Germany ?  P.S He's my 
         favorite player ?
    
     5/  How do say in German "Hard luck chaps pip pip toodle loo" ?
    
     6/  How do you count to five in English and six in German ?
    
     7/  How many Scots supported Germany.
    
         A  One million
         B  One million and one
         C  Every bloody one
    
     8/  On a scale of one to ten , how did you feel after the match ? The
         only reason for asking this is so we can all have a good laugh.
    
     9/  How much did "oor terry" nick from the squad funds ?
    
    10/  Do you understand this well known scottish phrase ? " Ahve ne're
         bin se gled aw yon muckle result "     
     
    11/  Is Southgate now living north of Bathgate ?
    
    12/  How many tears did Gazza shed in the dressing room ?    
          
     
           
     IC
    
    
       

    >In reference to your comments about taking a week to get over a
    >defeat,i thought i might have heard from you by now!
    
    At a rough guess, I'd say I've probably entered about 12 notes since
    the German game, but I'm not going to waste my time (or yours, since
    you probably won't bother reading them) listing pointers to each one.
    Maybe we just don't feel too embarassed about losing on penalties to
    the eventual winners (who yesterday chalked up their 5th success in
    major tournaments). Whereas I suspect you guys are going to be haunted 
    by the events of 15th June 1996 for some time ;-)
    
    Talk about "the pot calling the kettle black".Talks cheap and so
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Love it! You know, I think you should leap before you look ;-)
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Thanks for your support in .225, Dezzz. It's nice when a
    "neutral" feels the need to state the facts as they really are.

    Hey Dom if you think Germany have had 5 major wins in championships
    then you obviously do not know much about football but then i had
    thought as much anyway!
    
    p.s check it: only 5?
    

    
    Actually Mr Smartypants Germany have only had 2 !!!
    
    West Germany have had 4 !!!
    
    Dezzz.
               

    I thought Germany, in either guise, had won 5 of the 8 European
    Championships.
    
    
    				Stretch.

    >Actually Mr Smartypants Germany have only had 2 !!!
    >
    >West Germany have had 4 !!!
    
    So I was obviously miles out in .227...oh, the shame of it all ;-)
    
    
    Dom

    
    re: .230
    
    Germany won the 72, 80 and 96 Euro Championships, and lost the Final
    in 76 and 92.
    
    For the World Cup they won in 54, 74 and 90 and lost in 66, 82 and 86
    
    That makes one win and three semi-finals look bad.