Conference tallis::celt

  This article did an excellent job of summing up the British Government's
  actions over the last 18 months.

  No one who believes in democracy can justify the British exclusion of
  all parties that have a democratic mandate from the peace table.

  The Draconian legislation that Britain devised to punish the Nationalist
  community is still in effect, and still being utilized. 

  Rights that we take for granted in the United States are removed from the
  Nationalist people in north east Ireland.  Britain continues with juryless
  trials, and "no right to silence" for the Nationalist people.

  Anyone interested in the Orange Order, can take a look at the
  "Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland" aka KKK found at

              http://www.gpl.net/customers/goli/

  Where is the justice for those who have been murdered by British collusion
  with death squads?


                           Mark

  The Draconian legislation that Britain devised to punish the Nationalist
  community is still in effect, and still being utilized. 

Q: Are you saying that the Prevention of Terrorism Act has never been used
   against "loyalist" terrorists   (Yes/No answer requested)

  Rights that we take for granted in the United States are removed from the
  Nationalist people in north east Ireland.  Britain continues with juryless
  trials, and "no right to silence" for the Nationalist people.

Q: Are you saying that "loyalist" terrorists are not tried in juryless trials?
   (Yes/No answer requested)

Q: Are you saying that "loyalist" terrorists have a different "right to 
   silence" from Nationalist terrorists?  (Yes/No answer requested)

  "Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland" aka KKK found at

Q: Are you saying that the Orange Lodge is part of the KKK?  Or vice versa?
   Answer with evidence requested.

regards,
//alan

>  Where is the justice for those who have been murdered by British collusion
>  with death squads?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

The dreaded phrase book has returned.  Sorry for not taking this seriously, 
but this seems to me to be simply `stirring the pot' at a sensitive time.  All 
sides could go on 'til eternity dragging up past injustices (perceived and/or 
real) perpetrated by others, but this is of absolutely no help whatsoever for 
a peaceful solution.

Chris.

From Mark's URL:

              http://www.gpl.net/customers/goli/

Qualifications of an Orangeman

     An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly 
     Father; 

     a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, 
     believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should 
     cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and
     piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; 

     his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; 

     he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; 

     he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them 
     the rule of his faith and practice; 

     he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and 
     sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; 

     he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the 
     Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or 
     otherwise), any act or ceremony of Popish worship; 

     he should by all lawful means, resist the ascendency of that Church, its 
     encroachments, and the extension of its power, ever abstaining from all 
     uncharitable words, actions or sentiments towards Roman Catholics; 

     he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath day, and attend the public 
     worship of God, and and diligently train up his offspring, and all under 
     his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; 

     he should never take the Name of the Lord in vain, but abstain from all 
     cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging 
     those, and all other, sinful practices in others; 

     his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by 
     honesty, temperance, and sobriety; 

     the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, 
     and the good of his country, should be the motives of his actions.

Mark,

re .5

I've never been religious, so don't really understand this Catholic/Protestant
nonsense.  However, if you accept that people are allowed to argue against
Roman Catholicism, I really can't see anything terribly heinous about
the principles I quoted in .5

regards,
//alan

  Alan,
    This page of the Orange Order sounds like the KKK home page
   (http://www.io.com/~wlp/aryan-page/misc-kkk-faq.html) substitute
    black or jewish for popish and Church of Rome).

    Whenever anyone slips in a disdain for the values of others as they
    thump with their own Christian values, you know you've got a small minded
    bigot/racist on the other end.

    Ralph Reed couldn't have done a better job designing the Orange Order
    home page.

                        Mark


  P.S.
   They all sound so similiar, the Orange Order, the KKK, the National Front,
   Faraken, David Duke, and Ralph Reed.

   Take a look at David Duke when he visited Britain (probably for some 
   direction).  http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1773/duke5.gif

    Whenever anyone slips in a disdain for the values of others as they
    thump with their own Christian values, you know you've got a small minded
    bigot/racist on the other end.

[...]

   They all sound so similiar, the Orange Order, the KKK, the National Front,
   Faraken, David Duke, and Ralph Reed.

Mark,

While some of the names are unfamilar to me, I think that we're in closer
agreement than you think.  Only difference is that I would add...well, an
illegal organisation for which you have more respect than I think it deserves.

The Orange Lodge may do disreputable things - I don't know - but their aims
and objectives are pretty reasonable.  It may be that from the other side of
the Atlantic, the IRA's aims and objectives seem reasonable.  However...

I used to live in the East End of Glasgow.  This is an area famed for its
religious bigotry.  Okay, it's not as violent as NI, but there are still a
hell of a lot of people who have been savagely beaten up solely because of
their religion.

Graffiti (sp?) adorns almost every wall, encouragin people to "F... the Pope",
or to "F... the Queeen".  Next to that will be dates - 1690 or 1916, along
with slogans, "No surrender" or "Up the [I] RA"

Orange walks and catholic marches happen every marching season, guaranteed
that the orange walks will go through catholic areas, and catholic marches
through protestant districts.

So you may be able to see the leaders of the IRA as reasonable people, but
_please_ believe me - their followers on the ground are THUGS.  I've _seen_
people who have been beaten up simply because of the sect of Christianity they
were born into.  The attackers are the folk in the UK who give the IRA and the
UDA money - not the idealogues or the intelligentsia.

Think about this, Mark, please.  On the ground, the two sides are the same -
they're just knife-wielding, violent, intolerant thugs who care nothing for
anybody else.

Noble, it ain't.

regards,
//alan

  Alan,
   Ever read any of the International Human Rights reports (AI, Helsinki Watch,
  etc) on north east Ireland?  They're an eye opener.  One read of any of
  the reports and you can understand why the Irish Republican Army are fighting.

   The Pope, or the Queen aren't mentioned by AI, or Helsinki Watch.  They're
  only symbols.  Those committing the crimes are in British Army or RUC
  uniforms.  Those who can commit murder with impunity are the crown forces.
  The people who institute juryless trials aren't the Pope or the Queen, they're
  the British government.  The Queen doesn't pass dossiers on to loyalist
  murder squads, her crown forces do.  And the Pope, what does he do, he only
  sits up there and pisses off my wife :-)

                             Mark 



   


   

    .0
    
    In response to your....shall we say misguided points in 1547.0  I would
    like answers to these questions Mark.
    
    You see time and time again I have requested you to answer questions
    that I have put to you and you haven't. Why not? Will you answer that
    question? Or even that one?
    
    
    1. The British security forces have shown good faith in withdrawing
    troops, removing battle dress etc. etc. why can't the terrorists
    decommission at least some of their weapons, just to show a little
    good faith?
    
    2. Why are you so concerned when countless more people in your own
    country are treated far worse?
    
    3. Why not? Terrorist are still killing people.
    
    4. see .3
    
    5. Alternatives? b.t.w. R.S.A. and it's problems are totally different
    from Irelands.
    
    6. Human Shields? You have proof of this? Please submit.
    
    7. The I.R.A. continues drug operations to finance weapons as well, did
    you not know this?
    
    8. Terrorist abductees still missing, some for up to 20 years, will the
    terrorists admit to their whereabouts?
    
    9. Lee Clegg has been proven innocent, just like the Guildford Four.
    Why should he not get compensation for wrongful imprisonment?
    
    10. The Nationalists block the roads so as not to allow access, the
    R.U.C. clear the blockage....After all you do want a free country for all
    to go where they want and say what they want, on an equal footing...
    don't you?
    
    11. You have proof of this? For what reason were the plastic bullets
    fired?
    
    12. So why is justice denied to victims of I.R.A. murders due to terror
    tactics employed by said group. Also the I.R.A. have never got their 
    weapons from South Africa either have they? Answer no and lie.
    
    Eighteen months ago there was optimism for a new beginning. Today
    people are still dying and one big finger points in one direction.
    Internal pressure from the nationals of the UKOGBANI and the Republic of 
    Ireland is the only way to make *ALL* parties respect the democratic
    rights of *ALL* the people of Northern Ireland.
    
    
    I await your comments and Answers.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Time and time again I answer your questions, and still you broach each
  new question with, "You see time and time again I have requested you to
  answer questions that I have put to you and you haven't".  What pray tell,
  type of lies are you trying to concoct?


> 1. The British security forces have shown good faith in withdrawing
>    troops, removing battle dress etc. etc. why can't the terrorists
>    decommission at least some of their weapons, just to show a little
>    good faith?

  The state sponsered terrorists (you call them the British security forces),
  continue to occupy the country.  I'd say that 18 months of cease-fire from
  the Irish Republican Army shows more than a little good faith.  Quite
  frankly, I believe the IRA has shown too much good faith, as evidenced
  by one British precondition after another.  It's now obvious to the world
  community that the British don't want peace in Ireland.

>    2. Why are you so concerned when countless more people in your own
>   country are treated far worse?

  Surely you jest.  We have a Bill of Rights, we have trials by jury, we
  have the right to remain silent.  We don't have a foreign power in our
  country.  

>  3. Why not? Terrorist are still killing people.

  Because it's wrong.  "Emergency legislation", ie the draconian laws
  introduced by Britain have been used to convict innocent people, whose
  only crime is being Irish.

>     4. see .3

  Well, let's try to explain by an example.  Charley is walking down the
  street.  British security forces determine that he looks like a suspicious,
  Irish type.  They hold you in a prison, you explain that you love the
  Queen, punk rock, and ech, lager.  But that doesn't free you.  They stick
  a gun in your mouth, and tell you that your family is going to be targeted
  by death squads.  You say, F___ You, I'm not saying another word to you
  psychopaths.  They say, thankyou, we will use that as evidence against you.
  You say, I want to speak to an attorney.  They say, why, are you guilty
  of something Paddy.  Three days later, you've admitted to sinking the
  Titanic.  They railroad you through a trial, where a judge decides he's
  got to send a message to the "terrorists" community, and announces that
  your guilty.  You spend the next 40 years in prison.
  
  
> 5. Alternatives? b.t.w. R.S.A. and it's problems are totally different
>    from Irelands.

  Yes disband the apartheid police force known as the RUC, and create a
  new one.


> 6. Human Shields? You have proof of this? Please submit.

  What would you like to see, photo's of British bases and observation posts
  that have been purposely built next to the schools of Nationalist children?

  http://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/fodea/aprn/bmgii/index.html


> 7. The I.R.A. continues drug operations to finance weapons as well, did
>   you not know this?

  This is a British propoganda lie.  It sounds as stupid as if I said, the
  British military continues drug operations to finance it's weapons.
  Why with a cease-fire in place, does Britain continue to increases
  spending on military installations.

>    11. You have proof of this? For what reason were the plastic bullets
>    fired?

  Last August in Derry, and in Belfast.  Fired for "crowd control".
  CNN news network carried pictures of this, and of the "night sticks" being
  used to crack unarmed peaceful civilian protesters.

So let me understand your argument, Mark.

You're saying that because there hse been unacceptable behaviour by a few
members of the British forces in NI, then _any_ level of violence by 
catholics is acceptable?  Even in Glasgow?

And since you're in a mood to answer questions, how 'bout those in .2?

regards,
//alan

>  Surely you jest.  We have a Bill of Rights, we have trials by jury, we
>  have the right to remain silent.  We don't have a foreign power in our
>  country.                                                        ^^^^^^
   ^^^^^^^
No it's not.  You represent an occupying force in a country which doesn't 
belong to you, an occupying force which spent decades persecuting and 
oppressing the native inhabitants, and still does not recognise their rights 
to run *their* country.  Of course, you'll try blaming the British, French and 
Spanish for this, but the people who profit from the long history of 
oppression and theft from the country's indigenous population are the people 
who are currently living on the spoils of these and other atrocities, ie 
overprivileged white Americans, ie you.

Chris.

NB I'd call the above a parody, but it seems more reasonable than the rhetoric 
which is constantly directed at the British, which rather defeats the point.

RE:                      <<< Note 1547.11 by GYRO::HOLOHAN >>>


>> > 7. The I.R.A. continues drug operations to finance weapons as well, did
>> >   you not know this?
>> 
>>   This is a British propoganda lie.  It sounds as stupid as if I said, the
>>   British military continues drug operations to finance it's weapons.
>>   Why with a cease-fire in place, does Britain continue to increases
>>   spending on military installations.
    
    How laughable! The British Army has no need to sell drugs to finance
    weapons, it is funded by the British Government. Where does the IRA get
    its funding from, I wonder, if not from illegal activities such as
    crime, corruption, and selling drugs? Get your blinkered head out of
    the sand.

    You have proof, of course, that the British Government continues to
    increase spending on military installations *by implication in NI*.
    Perhaps you'd share it with us.
    
    Perhaps too, you'd like to adjust your definition of "cease-fire". A
    cease-fire is *not* a complete and total cessation of armed violence
    and cowardly terrorism. The terrorist organisations, including the IRA,
    continue to refuse to disarm, and threaten to re-start their murdering
    of innocent men, women and children any day now. The British government
    would be failing in its duty to protect its citizens if it were to pull
    out. So, even if it were increasing spending, it is fully justified in
    doing so until the terrorists disarm.
    
    Laurie.

    Thank you for answering Mark. Your comments are interesting to say the
    least.
    
    In reply to your points.
    
    1/ It has not been 18 months of cease fire from the I.R.A. They are
    still shooting people. You might not want to beleive this Mark, but it
    is true. As to the British not wanting peace, that's utter crap, anyway
    British security forces have not killed anybody during the ceasefire, a
    certain other group has. Who is the more peaceful???
    
    2/ After spending much time with many American female students over
    (150 heh heh) over the past six years - mainly girls from Randolph Makin 
    Womens college in Virginia. I have learned two things.
    
    After deep discussion about politics both British and American I
    discovered that there is little if no faith in the American legal
    system and that civil rights are only avaliable to those with a
    slightly larger bank account than others.
    
    As to the treatment of people, I suppose the Puerto Ricans in New York,
    African Americans in Los Angeles and Hispanics just about everywhere
    else would agree with you saying that I jest.
    
    3/ >Emergency Legislation is wrong< 
       
       When people are running about blowing up shops, mortar bombing
       Westminster, blowing childrens legs off etc. I think any legislation
       is totally justified.
    
    4/ Mark, the example you note is wildly exaggerated unfortunately.
       
       
    5/ Like who???
    
    
    6/ I'm sorry Mark, but that is one of the weediest arguments that
       you've come up with. Scraping the bottom of the barrell with that
       one I'm afraid.
    
    7/ Mark, I'm afraid you're misguided on this one. The I.R.A. use drugs,
       crime and corruption their purchase of weapons. Who tells you
       otherwise?
    
    11/ For what reason were the crowd out of control???
    
    
    CHARLEY
        
       
     

Re .10
    
    In response to your....shall we say misguided points in 1547.10  I would
    like answers to these questions :
    
    
>    9. Lee Clegg has been proven innocent, just like the Guildford Four.
				  ^^^^^^^^
>    Why should he not get compensation for wrongful imprisonment?

	Can you tell us when he was found "innocent" ?

	I remember him being found guilty of murder by a court of law.
	I remember him being found guilty of murder by an appeal court.
	I remember him being found guilty of murder by The House of Lords.
	I remember him being let out of jail and getting promotion.
	Now let me see... hhmmm...nope! I can't remember him being found
	innocent.

	That just covers one point out of your 12. I hope the other 11 are
	a bit more accurate.


Eddie

    

>                  -< Take off your union jack tinted glasses >-

I think you mean Union Flag.  Pedantic, perhaps, but you were the one going on 
about accuracy...

Chris.

    .16
    
    I think you should take off your "I don't see what I don't want to see
    glasses."
    
    It was proved beyond reasonable doubt that Clegg was innocent, that's
    why he's free.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    .18
    
    Charley,
    
    what part of the word "murder" don't you understand? He was convicted
    of murder, HMG let him out early. He was never proven innocent....
    
    Ray....

    >How laughable! The British Army has no need to sell drugs to finance
    >weapons, it is funded by the British Government. Where does the IRA get
    >its funding from, I wonder, if not from illegal activities such as
    >crime, corruption, and selling drugs? Get your blinkered head out of
    >the sand.
    
    Hi Laurie,
    Not to start a rathole, and not wanting to glorify the IRA, but (from
    my albeit limited knowledge :v) ) much of the IRA funding comes from
    investments & income from video stores, taxis, restaurants, pubs, real
    estate, small businesses, loans, etc. Very little if any comes from drugs.
    I don't know why everyone is fixated on the drug aspect.
    George

>from video stores, taxis, restaurants, pubs, real
>estate, small businesses, loans, etc.

from what I understand of this, for video stores, read video & music piracy, 
for taxis, restaurants and pubs, read protection rackets, for loans, read 
theft.  Of course others may dismiss these as products of the Evil British 
Propaganda Machine (ie anything which does not unquestioningly accept whatever 
IRA spokesmen claim)

Chris.

    The protection rackets are a well-known source of income for the IRA
    and the UDA.  I've personally known of people in Northern Ireland 
    (Catholic and Protestant) whose family businesses have been threatened
    by representatives touting for protection money, and in one case
    (Catholic-run business) had a warehouse burned down for refusing to
    give in to the IRA.
    
    John    

The UDA and IRA even have agreements dividing up the areas in which they
operate their protection rackets. That (usually) avoid disputes which 
might get in the way of lucrative business. Not always of course...

Just like Chicago in days of the mob.

Dave

    .19
    
    Actually, there was something on T.V. a while back, god knows what
    programme it was, that showed why Lee Clegg was not responsible. I was
    under the impression that this was one of the main reasons he was
    released...but then again I may be wrong, but I definitley recall it
    being on the box.
    
    
    CHARLEY  

re .24,

I saw something similar, ages ago, like before the latest furore, where they 
analysed what happened that night by checking probable projectile 
trajectories, location of spent cartridges, etc.  Unfortunately, I can't 
remember what the conclusion was, although I seem to remember someone claiming 
that it would've been impossible for the vehicle to have been fired on from 
behind.

Chris.

    In the interests of accuracy, Lee Clegg has not been found innocent. He
    was released under licence, as is quite usual. Very few life sentences
    actually mean life imprisonment. It is possible to hold the view that
    he was released too early, but it was not an unprecedented length of
    time to serve.
    There is a group seeking to clear his name and are at present seeking
    to lay new forensic evidence before a judge which it is claimed shows
    that Clegg did not fire the fatal shot, someone else did.
    He was made into a physical training instructor, pretty much a
    backwater, in order that he can give orders, like "50 press ups" he was
    temporarily given a promotion. If he returns to active service he will
    revert to the rank of private until promoted.
    
    Andrew

>The UDA and IRA even have agreements dividing up the areas in which they
>operate their protection rackets. That (usually) avoid disputes which 
>might get in the way of lucrative business. Not always of course...
>
>Just like Chicago in days of the mob.

Much of this activity still occurs in America in most of the
major cities.

    re .15
    
    As you know, I believe there are things happening in the notes file
    that simply cannot be ignored. Take this for example, what IS it
    about???
    
        >After spending much time with many American female students over
        >(150 heh heh) over the past six years - mainly girls from Randolph
        >Makin Womens college in Virginia. I have learned two things.
    
    What did the poor girls do to get such a punishment inflicted on them?
    
    Was it a fair trial?
    
    Has the whole thing been investigated by Amnesty International,
    Helsinki Watch etc ?
    
    What two things did you learn? Why did it stop at two?
    
    I think we should be told.
    
    Straight answers now, no dodging the questions ...
    
                        

    Grow up Kev.

>    Grow up Kev.

lighten up Charley, I thought it was quite a laugh...

Chris.

    So did I, still not sure whether it was meant that way though.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Corse it was Charley!
    
    Laurie.

    CHARLEY,
    
    it was obviously meant to be deadly serious :-)
    
    And of course any suggestion that you can't take being teased is a
    mean smear which should be set hidden :-)
    
    So TELL ALL, you naughty devil, your darkest secrets are safe here ...
    
    Kevin

>    Corse it was Charley!
     ^^^^^
Oh dear, etc.

    Don't be silly Chris, it's a phonetic spelling for emphasis.
    
    Watch it or I'll change my p/n.
    
    Laurie.

>    As you know, I believe there are things happening in the notes file
>    that simply cannot be ignored. Take this for example, what IS it
>    about???

   Aw don't worry Charlie my boy, Kevin's just jealous the women
didn't come to Galway.  ;v)  ;v) ;v)

George

    Yeah - sorry Kev.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Compliments to Holohan for stirring everybody up again!
    
    "we'll all be ruined by Holohan before the year is out"!!
    
    I've just read all the replies. It was great until somebody started
    talking about women. At that point a degree of consensus emerged.
    
    Maybe all-party talks should start by addressing that subject.
    
    

Eighteen months of British bad faith, indeed?  Well it isn't the British 
who've started planting bombs targetted at civilians.

Chris.

    Completely justifiied Chris, completely justified, after all, over the
    last 18 months the British have....uh.....they've....err...ahh....well
    they've asked us to hand our weapons over, a quite atrocious action if
    ever there was one. Completely unjustified at that.
    
    
    CHARLEY

Amazing, after all the talk about not wanting to get involved in selective 
condemnation (taken in the context about condemning the IRAs bomb attacks), 
what have we here?  A load of selective condemnation about the British 
Government et al.  Bloody hypocrites.

I may as well setup a function key to print `hypocrites' since this word is 
used so frequently to describe the attitudes and propaganda of Sinn Fein and 
their supporters.

Chris.

    re .41
    
    Mark you may also like to list the IRAs failures, i.e failure to act
    like human beings.
    
    Richard