Conference school::sports_memorabilia

    
    Did anyone see the end of the NBC news last night?  It was about this
    12 year old kid who went to a card store and noticed that the Ryan
    rookie card was selling for $12!!  The kid knew what it was really
    worth and bought it.  The dealer was new to the business and had a
    helper working the store that day.  I guess he noticed it gone from
    the display and asked about it and pretty much hit the roof when he
    found out what happened.  The dealer is now suing the boy, stating
    that it is not legal to know something is way underpriced and to buy
    it.  The kid's old man thinks his kid was did nothing wrong and they
    are going to court over it.
    
    Personally, I hope the kid wins, and I think he should.  For all of
    us "dealer haters", this is one for the archives.
    
    PM
    

    This story has been receiving a lot of media attention here in Chicago.
    Let me fill in the rest of you regarding what else has been said.
    
    Like the base note implies, the store was new and was rather busy.  The 
    store owner could not handle the amount of customers and went next door
    to the jewelry store (which he also owns) and got one of the employees
    from there to help.  The store owner was in the store at the time that
    all of this happened, but was busy with another customer.
    
    It seems that the kid nod the Ryan rookie in a display case and
    the card was marked $1200/ and he offered the counterperson $12.00
    for the card.  Obviously they took the offer.  The kid was given a 
    sales receipt and still has it, and the card.
    
    A couple of days after the sale, the store owner noticed the card
    missing and hung a sign up offering $100.00 reward for the STOLEN
    card.  Apparently one of the kid's friends ratted on him and told
    the owner who he was and where he lived.  From then the owner was
    driving the neighborhood streets looking for this kid and actually
    went to their house after him.
    
    The family found out about this "kidhunt" and called the owner and
    told him they were going to keep the card.  Thus the suit was filed.
    Another note about this is that the card was being sold on consignment
    and the dealer owes the card owner $1000.00 for the card.
    
    I guess that I feel bad for the owner since it's not his card, BUT
    an employee of his sold the card and gave a sales receipt, and a deal
    is a deal.  I am fairly informed about thantique market and this is
    how a lot of dealers make big bucks.  They hit garage sales and
    auctions and end up getting something for vitually nothing.  One time
    my Great Grandmother went to an auction and purchased a couch and chair
    for $35.00.  They wer King Louis XVI and worth in excess of $50,000.00.
    Do you think she should have to the auctioneer that I'd like to pay
    more for it when she knew what they were?  NO WAY!
    
    Scott

    I'm on the middle on this.  On the one hand, Jeff's right, there should
    be some kind of guilt from the kid and father.  On the other hand,
    knowing the kind of stuff that goes on at BJ's, and knowing people
    get $50+/fleer hoops or skybox and then the price comes down, do
    the dealers say "Oops, I overcharged you, here's your money back..."
    No, they don't.  I guess if I had to side, I'd say I'd side with the
    kid.
    
    -Walt

    I'm stuck too. As a parent, I'm struggling with the morality. But as a
    consumer, the kid is right IMO. Have you ever seen similar items priced
    differently in a store? I have...on several occasions. In EVERY case,
    the store manager/owner has given me the item at the lower price.
    Granted, I've never run into a $1200 TV set marked $12! I'd like to
    know if that same dealer has a 'price guarantee'. You know, like
    Lechmere's. If you bring them an ad, depicting an item for less than
    they are selling it for, they will match the price. You can do this up
    to 30 days AFTER you make the purchase. The difference will be
    refunded (or credited to your account). So, if you bought a card from
    this dealer for 'x', and then saw it cheaper a week or so later, would
    he refund you the difference? I know a couple of dealers who would take
    their merchandise back, but not simply give you the difference in cash.
    
    Enough rambling....it's time to go home!!
    

    The yard sale analogy doesn't quite apply here, IMO, because the seller
    of the King Louis furniture didn't pay $50k or anywhere near it, and
    was probably happy to get the $35.  Our dealer, however, had the card
    on consignment, and it sounds as if the little puke knowingly took
    advantage of an ignorant sales clerk. Even if it wasn't on consignment,
    the dealer probably paid big bucks for the card. ( As I heard the story,
    the card wasn't marked, and the clerk misread the price in a guide).
    Anyway, I can't believe the father is siding with the kid. He must be a
    noter 8>

    
    The last reply (.6) pretty much sums up the way I feel about this
    as well.
    
    It is the business owner's responsibility to see that his employees
    are trained appropriately.  In this instance, the employee was not
    familiar enough with the business and made a mistake.  The owner has
    no one to blame for this but himself.
    
    One can question the ethics of the kid in this situation (its not
    much different than when a cashier makes a mistake in change in
    your favor), but (admitting that I'm no lawyer) I would think from
    a legal standpoint that the owner doesn't have much of a case.
    
    One more thing to think about is this: many people have been known to
    go to a garage sale and offer $20 to some kid's mother for an entire
    collection (when they fully know that the cards in question are worth
    many times that).  
    
    I think the lesson that businesses should learn from this incident is
    not:
    
    	Businesses are protected by the law from their employee's
    incompetence.
                
    but rather:
    
    	Businesses are fully responsible for the competence of their
    employees.
    
    Just my $.02

    I think that there is a quote "LET THE BUYER BEWARE".
    
    The seller just learned the converse of that quote.
    
    
    
    
                                 -pj-

    It's too bad for the shop owner.  He needs to manage his store better. 
    It's because of his inefficiencies that he has lost this money.  He's
    stuck and it's his fault.  
    
    The kid did just fine.  No problem.
    
    As a side note, American consumers get ripped continually, and for 1
    consumer to get a great deal is superb.  The shop owners ignorance in
    management got him.  That's too damn bad!
    
    Glenn

    That's my point.  How many of the dealers that tried to get
    $4/pack for Skybox a month ago are give back $2.75 or so now?
    Not many I would think.
    
    I hope I'm not in big trouble because I got an 89 Hoops Karl
    Malone last night for a nickel...
    
    -Walt

    
    My own opinion for this Dealer is to be more careful in the future. 
    This dealer may be a "good" person but he is in an occupation that 
    is on a par with "IRS auditor" or a Used-car Salesman in the majority
    of the public's mind.  Would those of us who take the Dealer's side
    in this issue feel the same way if the card was graded "Good" and 
    being sold at a "Mint" price?
    
    					Jeff
    

    re .11
    I don't think it was an old guide. I think it said "$1200" and the
    inexperienced clerk (who, as the story goes, was just helping out in an
    emergency in a new venture that had only been open a week) probably
    couldn't believe a stupid piece of cardboard could be worth that much,
    so she subconsciously supplied the decimal point to make it "$12.00."
    
    Now let's reverse this little scenario and say I ask my local dealer to
    find me a Joe Blow card. He does, checks his Becketts and misreads the
    $10 price as $100.  I think that's a little steep, but as a new
    collector, I figure he knows better than I. Plus I work for DEC, so
    price is no object anyway. Later on, though, a friend points out the
    mistake. I would expect the dealer to refund the difference.
    
    You guys have really gotten embittered. I'll bet even Judge Wapner
    would find for the dealer. This isn't a case of fluctuating prices;
    this is just a dirty little deal. I hope the kid's mother throws the
    card out when he gets called up to serve in Iraq in a few years.

    
    I don't see a lot of grey area here.
    
    The deal was made.  The clerk is an agent of the dealer.  The kid did
    nothing illegal.  Morality is another question.
    
    Anyone want to bet on the outcome?  
    
    Steve

    Note .15 sounds like a lawyer speaking.  I just have to get involved
    with this one.  Lets face it, the kid is destined for a GREAT future.
    He spotted an inexperienced women working the store, knew that she 
    probably knew next to nothing about cards, or baseball players,(they
    all look the same to me), and capitalized on her ignorance.  Figured
    like Rick J. said, $1200 for a baseball card, never, $12 bucks, sounds
    good to me kid, SOLD.
    
    The women should not take the heat in this case, the businessman, who
    is an idiot to have a broad working the store in the first place, has
    what the IRS calls, and old fashion, "business loss".
    
    What the store owner should do immediately is hire this kid to run the
    store so this doesn't happen again.  Who better knows cards than the 
    kids anyway, he'll bring in lots of his buddies, and the owner will
    make up the difference within a couple of weeks.  And you can bet
    that some women won't come walzing in the store and put one over on the 
    kid, thats for sure!

     re .14
    I see your point, but call me a pessimist, I don't see the dealer
    really giving the money back.  Could be wrong...

    RE:.16 Who you calling a lawyer?  ;-)  I'm a salesrep which I suppose
    could be just as bad.
    
    Hire the kid?  Maybe, but could you trust him?  I definitely don't see
    this happening ... not that it isn't a good idea, but the owner sounds
    like a stubborn idiot crybaby ... not a creative intelligent type. 
    
    Steve

    Sorry, didn't mean anything personnal. (note.18)  If I was the kid, I'd
    sell the card quickly.  Get the profit from the sale, and wait for the 
    little lady to show up for work again, and buy as many bargins as
    possible from her.  She's such a nice women.  She reminds me of my 
    mother, the one who brought all my cards to the Church Bazzar.

    
    RE:.14 by CLOVE::JACUNSKI
   
    
    Now let's reverse this little scenario and say I ask my local dealer to
    find me a Joe Blow card. He does, checks his Becketts and misreads the
    $10 price as $100.  I think that's a little steep, but as a new
    collector, I figure he knows better than I. Plus I work for DEC, so
    price is no object anyway. Later on, though, a friend points out the
    mistake. I would expect the dealer to refund the difference.
    
    >>>  I think you would expect that, yes.  And I think many reputable
    >>>  dealer's would honor that request - mainly because they hope to
    >>>  keep your business.  However, I don't believe that the dealer
    >>>  would be compelled by law to appease you.  He gave you a price
    >>>  which you accepted and paid him.  In this hypothetical example
    >>>  you paid the price (literally) for being an uninformed consumer.
    >>>  This happens every day, everywhere.  I think its irrelevant in
    >>>	 (in terms of the legal issues) whether you were charged $100
    >>>  by the dealer by mistake *or* intentionally.  Caveat emptor.
    
    You guys have really gotten embittered. I'll bet even Judge Wapner
    would find for the dealer. This isn't a case of fluctuating prices;
    this is just a dirty little deal. I hope the kid's mother throws the
    card out when he gets called up to serve in Iraq in a few years.
    
    >>>  Obviously I can't speak for others, but I think legally the kid
    >>>  is within his rights to keep the card.  I think this not because
    >>>  I'm in anyway embittered with card dealers (actually I'm pretty
    >>>  ambivilent about the ones I've encountered).  To me, it doesn't
    >>>  so much matter that this was a card dealer and a kid.  Had it
    >>>  been Sears and an adult man who bought a circular band saw from
    >>>  an ill-trained Sears employee for 1% of the real price - I would
    >>>  side with the consumer on the legal question.  On the moral
    >>>  question of either scenario, I would have been more forthcoming
    >>>  were I the kid or the band saw customer.

    
    How many of us would have acted the same way if we had been put
    in that situation? Say you walk into a new store and you ask some
    lady ( looks like she could be the owners wife), "what's that Ryan
    card goin' for". She picks it up, looks on the back, and says "$12".
    How many of us wouldn't be digging into our pockets at that point.
    We are all looking for the good deals all the time. Most of us can
    spot the wrong or miss priced stuff, do we pass it up or do we take
    advantage.
    
    JIM
    
    

    
    I think that the kid will win, I won't go into morals or the kid
     would lose.
    
     I think you can count on one thing happening though. Many other
    people will pay for that mistake down the road. The store owner
    will get his money back somehow and you can bet on that. Skybox
    will cost $1.50 instead of $1.25 and Upper Deck Hockey will be
    $1.25 a pack instead of $1.00 Etc.. Many stores do this sort of thing.
    They put prices on items to make up for things like shoplifting
    and restocking an item you decided not to buy and dumped in another 
    isle because you were to lazy to return it to where you found it.
    The store won't really suffer much, but his customers will.

    Just as a side note to all this, there was a youngster (around 12, I'd
    say) who had a table at the Manchester Girls & Boys Club show on
    Saturday, and during a slow period (there were lots of those) he came
    over to check out my table, bragging how he'd just bought TWO Henderson
    rookies for $5 from a little kid who didn't know what he had. Maybe
    this young dealer is related to the kid in the news.
    
    re the last half dozen replies: I don't doubt that legally the Ryan
    transaction is a done deal, it's just that GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES I'd
    want the kid's father to at least attempt to negotiate some sort of
    settlement where nobody gets screwed.  Any news on this story over the
    weekend?
    
    Rick 

    I don't support either the kid or the store owner in this.  Business is
    business, both parties try to get the best deal possible.  The kid, no
    doubt, got a good deal.  The dealer did not really watch his shop,
    either.  
    
    I think, as a father, I would talk to my kid and impress upon him the
    importance of honesty and fairness.  Would I negotiate with the dealer?
    Probably.  But rest assured I would not agree to pay $1200 to help him
    recover from a business mistake.  
    
    I agree with you John,  it is a sad commentary on the hob-biness when
    people are intent on gouging (it doesn't matter what side of the table
    you're on).  Having set up at many shows I've seen both collector and
    dealer try to shaft each other.  
    
    to all--  would you have traded a '62 Mantle for (5) '62 Carlton
    Willey's?  I don't think so.  There may not have been published prices
    in the "old days" but there was an understood worth of particular
    players.
    
    joe

    Now that I have read all the replies I can see that everyone feels
    bad for the Dealer. He had the wrong person in there taking care
    of the shop and who new nothing about Nolan Ryan,or Joe Blow.
    Now how many of you would like to say the kid pulled a fast one,
    and should return it to the Dealer ?
    
                                              JM
    

    Excuse me .16 its not the fact that the kid got the card because
    a woman was working there.  It was because she knew nothing about
    its worth!!
    
    Ben
             

    >> .30
    
      And Calvin Schiraldi. ;-)
    
     

    
    I don't think the kid has a chance to keep the card. He *knowingly*
    took advantage of the shop clerk. He had information, or a knowledge
    that the store clerk did not, and in court this will be brought out
    and the kid will have to give the card back. 
    
    If both parties have an equal knowledge about the situation....
    different story...
    
    		Smitty

    I totally agree with .33 .  Your typical unorganized card shop, where
    prices of high priced cards are on display without attached prices. 
    This is done no doubt so that a potential interested buyer will not not
    be scared off in offering a price, and so the dealer could offer some
    price below the going price guides.  Everytime you ask the dealer how
    much, he has to reach for the old guide book and look it up.  The kid
    said gosh, I know the price, $12 bucks, and the women probably looked
    it up in hast and said fine, $12 it is.  Is that the kids fault??  So
    he knew he got a good deal, what is he suppose to do??  If your local
    painter decides to paint your house by mistake, instead of your
    neighbors, and he negotiated a price, are you stuck with paying for 
    the painter?  I doubt it, even though you watch him paint the whole
    house before you tell him are you sure you got the correct street 
    address?  Is the kid suppose to double guess what the price should 
    really be.  If my kid got a deal like that, I would instruct him to
    give it back if only he felt that he had done a dishonest deed.  If he
    truly felt that the place was mismanaged and that was the going price,
    hey, should I be watching out for every business man out on the street?
    No, I don't think so.

    re .32
    
    sorry Smitty...I can't agree with you. Every dealer knows that the MSRP
    of Upper Deck and Skybox is $.99/pack. That's not $1.00, and it most
    certainly is not $1.25 or $1.50....it's $.99. Will your local dealers
    refund the difference to you? Of course not! They will tell you that
    they charged you a 'fair' markup based on their cost. Well, it's
    possible that $12 represented a 100 or even 200% markup for the Ryan
    card in question. If I were the person involved here, and I was
    contacted by the shop owner, my response to him would be "that card was 
    already sold to an unknown person at a local card show last weekend....
    .....for $25". If pressed, I would offer to pay him the additional $13
    and call it square. Is this sleazy? Maybe, but those of you who know me
    will understand because I've been known to set up at an occasional
    show. That makes me one of those 'dealers' I love reading about in
    here. (this is where I would insert several smiley faces, if I knew
    how)
     
    
    pressed, I'd agree to pay the dealer the additional $13 which I made on
    the deal

    If you have a shipmate tried and true; screw your shipmate befor he
    screws you.  
    My comments are going to sound as pious as hell-however they are real.
    IF the kid knew the value of the card the Consumer Protection Act
    will force the return of the card to the dealer.
    If the kid didn't know the parent(s) should intervene-this is hardly
    the kind of lesson that you want any kid to learn.
    The previous referrences to women were totally out of place, even
    jokingly.
    Many of the responses sounded just like many of the responders
    description of dealers.  Have you become what you criticize.
    I would have ( and so would many of you ) not taken a 1200.00
    card that was mispriced.  I would have told the dealer.
    I also would not buy from someone else a in a sceneario reversal.
    Dennis, would you really lie to the guy about the card? 
    This is really discouraging-do notes 1-35 represent a cross
    section of our collective ethics-I hope not.   
    End of sermon.
    Mike
    

  With the principles that this hobby is teaching our kids, we're going
to have some crafty used car salesmen growing up...

I'm not a lawyer, but I did take Business Law in college, and I believe that 
the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) will prevail. 
This is the set of laws which prevail in commercial and retail situations. 
The boy in question stands accused of comitting a tort, not a crime, unless 
suit is brought by the store owner. Obviously, the young man KNOWINGLY offered 
significantly LESS than percieved value for an object to someone who he KNEW 
was NOT AWARE of the percieved full value of the object.

A dealer who buys an item at a price significantly below value from someone 
not "in-the-know" commits the same tort.

                      As they say, "Therein lies the rub."

===============================================================================
Anyway, to group all dealers in the same category as "scumbags" is the same as 
grouping all collectors together as "investors". I know some folks who are now 
dealers and they still have the same integrity that they always had. I also 
know some people who never even collected, but are now "investors" and would 
cut your throat for a 1989UD#1. 

Accusations grouping people together is bigotry, and is wrong whomever it is 
directed against.


John Potucek

(a COLLECTOR of misc. baseball and football cards, etc.)

    No Mike, I don't think I would really lie to the guy. If the kid was my
    son, and he tried to take advantage, the card would go back. I would be
    very interested in knowing how exactly the dealer approached the topic
    with the kid and parent(s). It's difficult to address an issue like
    this without all the facts. You see one thing, and I see another.
    I was just trying to 'stir it up' a little. The whole mess does
    intrique me though. And, I look forward to following this note to the
    eventual outcome.
    BTW...I think I'll file this one right next to Religion and Politics as
    an alltime favorite topic to get the conversation going!

      I just found this conference a couple days ago when my son wanted to
    sell some of his cards...
      And I must say this note is a great one.  Just as an aside here,
    I agree with reply .40 in that "It's difficult to address an issue
    like this without all the facts." as they actually happened.  I must
    add though I used this note to teach my son some moral responsibilities
    relative to this fast growing hobby of card collecting.
      To give you some background, my son (14 years old) has been collecting
    baseball cards since he was in t-ball eight years ago.  He has over
    15,000 cards and I beleive he knows the value of every one of them.
    When I told him of this story, his eyes lit up like the Chistmas tree
    in our living room, and the first thing that came out of his mouth
    was that he wished he was that kid.  This is where dad's moral lesson
    started.  And it went something like this..."Ya, the kid got a great
    deal, but we're not here on earth to screw one another no matter how
    many times others screw you...two, three, four wrongs don't make a
    right.  IF (a capital if) he knew that he was taking advantage of the
    ignorant sales clerk then  he was wrong in taking the card for any
    price less than what it was selling for."  He reluctantly agreed and
    added that if the store owner would have come to him for the card back
    he would have given it to him. But also added that he would expect a
    good deal on some other card for the $12 he spent.  It's not hard to
    see that he's been at this thing for awhile.
      Another story came to mind, which we added to our conversation.
    I just recently bought him a '57 Topps Ted Williams for his 14th
    birthday.  The Beckett priced it at $450 in mint.  It was in good to
    mint condition.  When I first went to the card shop to see it (Shawn
    hinted about it several times) the owners sons were minding the shop.
    The card wasn't marked, and I asked what it was selling for and got a 
    price of $200.  Both sons were well aware of the Beckett listing.  They
    even checked it while I was there and still set the price at $200.
    When I went back in the next day their father was there and quoted the
    same price of $200 and I offered him $150...hard cash!  He reluctantly
    took it and the deal was made.  If the owner would have come back to me
    later and requested the card back, I don't beleive I'd give it to him.
    But the situation IS a tab bit different...a knowledgeable clerk and
    I came to an agreement.
    	But enough babbling....back to work!

    
    
    Just realized I didn't "sign" that last reply.  
    
    Ed
    
    ps  My son will be entering that list of cards he wants to sell.
        I assume the best place is the "For Sale" note of this conference.

    re: .36
    
    Mike you're sort of in a "holier-than-thou" mode there, aren't you?
    
    I think the kid did fine.
    
    Glenn
    

    re .42,.43
    
    Ed, you said the Williams card was "good to mint." That's a pretty big
    range, as the generally accepted grades are: poor, fair, good, very
    good, excellent, near mint, and mint.  Your points are well taken, but
    you probably weren't taking advantage of the dealer. The formula
    varies, but a "good" card is probably valued at only 10 to 20% of a
    mint card.  Of course, when you start mixing attributes of different
    conditions ( say 3 razor-sharp corners and 1 that's been gnawed off by
    your pet hamster), then it gets very subjective. Anyway, hope your son
    enjoys that card; no matter what shape it's in, it's a classic!
    
    Rick

    re .44
    Yes I was.  However rest assured that my morals are mint with 4
    corners gnawed off by experience, many creases and one large pin hole.
    
    Other readers:
    Please spare me the the nasty comments about the rest of my anatomy
    and the position of the pinhole.

    
    re .45
    
    Rick,
    
    	This just goes to show who the collector in our family is.
    I thought good was next to mint.  As I recall now Shawn classified
    that card in near mint.  It has all four "sharp" corners, but a very
    slight "picture crease" (as Shawn explained it...the card was never
    folded...the picture was not glued to the cardboard properly.)
    Anyway...he loved it!  Ted is his hero, and to see the look on his
    face when he finally got the card was worth every penny.
    
    Ed

    No John, the way the Auctioners list there stuff is like this:
    
    1957 TOPPS, Ted Williams, Slight Crease, beautiful card, Otherwise
    NrMt.
    
    Everything is otherwise,  NrMt.  Isn't this sleezy??
    

    I don't object to the Mint-except-for-pinhole descriptions unless they
    try to charge you a near mint price.  Somebody says "very good" for
    instance, and I don't get a clear picture. There are all sorts of
    combinations of attributes that fit that category. But if somebody says
    "mint except for the gum slab-sized stain right in the middle of the
    back," then I know exactly what the card looks like and I can make up
    my own mind about what it's worth in comparison to the book mint price.

    
    	I guess I sent this note right down one huge rat whole...we/you'all
    were talkin' about this kid and his favorite card dealer.
    	My son has read over all the replies and got a real charge out of
    all the varied opinions, but was realy embarrassed of his 'ol man for
    my ignorance with all this.  But you know how 14 yr olds can get...
    you say one thing wrong in front of their friends and you're
    all-of-a-sudden the world biggest dweeb!  He corrected me on a couple
    things...the dealer actually classified his Ted Williams at excellent
    to near mint (Ex to NrMt - right?  be patient with me I'm trying to
    learn!!!!!!)  8^{) , and Shawn agreed with him.  The price at NrMt
    was $450.  He also corrected me on the total card count of
    his collection...it's not 15,000, it's more like 38,000.
    	Anyway back to this kid and his favorite card dealer...anybody
    hear anythin' else on that court action?

    Lets turn the tables here a little.  I got ripped off on an obscure 8
    card DonRuss set, worth $8 bucks.  I hadn't looked it up, and really
    hadn't done my homework, and paid a dealer $20 at a local card show. 
    Its really only worth $8 bucks, according to the SCD complete baseball
    card guide, and now that I know I got taken, can I return it to the
    dealer, for a refund, or get reimbursed for the difference?

    If you paid 100 times book (the opposite of our little kid vs. dealer
    scenario) or even 10 times book, then you'd have good grounds to go
    back and say, "hey, there's been a serious mistake made here." But you
    only paid 2 and 1/2 times book on a fairly inexpensive item, so even
    though you might be able to get a refund, the dealer might not want to
    reimburse the difference for any number of reasons: the dealer bought
    the item when it was in high demand and is trying to recoup his outlay;
    the item is a "regional favorite;" the dealer feels (wrongly or
    rightly) that the item is undervalued in the book; the dealer is just
    plain in no hurry to part with the item unless somebody's willing to
    buy it at a price that represents "an offer he can't refuse."
    
    As you said, Rick, this is only turning the tables "a little". It
    wasn'treally a mistake like the clerk made. You hadn't done your
    homework, and apparently didn't even ask the dealer what the item
    booked for. You apparently did think the item was worth $20 to you.
    I'd be interested to know how you make out with this. I'd also be
    interested in knowing what Donruss 8-card set is worth $8. I haven't a
    clue! 
    Happy New Year,
    the other Rick

    The set is the DR Superbubbles, Sluggers set, dated 1985.  I was
    interested in the Mickey Mantle Card only, the dealer knows I collect
    Mantle only, and said it was a rare set, not many around, and it has
    to be worth $20 for the whole set.  He said he had no idea what the set
    was worth.  Believe me, this guy had to know, and he stuck it to me
    good, not to say I didn't deserve it.  This set was done by Dick Perez,
    and I really never saw it before, until I looked in the big book, its
    rarely published for sale.  It books out Mint for $8.00, I paid him
    $20, and even offered to pay him just for the Mantle, and he refused.
    I'm not bitter because I feel if you don't do your homework before
    you go out and buy, its your fault if you pay to much.  But sometimes
    you just can't wait around and check out every card out there, or
    someone will buy it right out from under you, so I bought it without 
    checking it out, my mistake.  But my point is, regardless of the price,
    the intent was there to defraud.  Whether the kid did it to the dealer,
    or the dealer did it to me, if you don't know what your doing out there
    in the real world, you shouldn't be out there.  My feeling is, a deal
    is a deal.  I have to live with it.  Just like the dealer has to live 
    with his mistake in putting an incompetent employee in charge of his 
    card store.  

    
    	Let's be truthful everyone...
    
    	It's all cool 'til it happens to you, right!!!!!!!
    
    	My son gave my wife a list of cards he wanted for Christmas,
    which included a '90 Leaf - Will Clark, to complete a small collection
    of Clarks.  Beckett priced at $.75.  She found it at a local dealer
    and paid $5 for it.  He said it was hard to find!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	I think we'll SUE!
    
    just kiddin'
    Ed

    WOW I don't know about a lawsuit BUT I can guarantee I would pay a
    visit to that "local" dealer and have a SERIOUS chat with him.
    
    THAT is totally ridiculous!!  That guy should close up shop QUICK!
    
    (Just my humble opinion)
    
    Mike

    Has anyone else out there been given the Royal Screwing from his local
    dealer lately??  Seems like there are more and more little stories of 
    dealer abuse on customers than customers on the dealer.  I just hope
    the kid in the original story gets to keep the card, and he walks by
    the dealers store everyday from school, and waves the card in his
    face as he goes by!!  That will be my payback to the"dishonest" dealers
    in the world.

    			........The Kid is home free.....
    
    Heres my answer to this folks:
              
    It is up to the store owner to employ competent people.  In contract
    law once a register is rung or once money exchanges hands there
    is a binding contract.  The kid is in and the store owner is out.
              
    There is no recourse.  The kid is also a minor which also questions
    his full scope and knowledge of the deal.  In any event the law
    suit has no basis.  The card was in the case for $12 and it sold
    for $12.  
              
    Good going for the little guy.  A childs dream and a store owners
    nightmare.

    Saw in a magazine today that the trial was the 27th of December.
    Because the mag went to press weeks before there arn't any results yet.
    
    Without rehashing the whole thing all over again...the way the story
    went was that the store was busy and the manager got a woman from the
    jewlery department to help him out selling cards. Little Brian W. walks
    in sees the Jerry Koosman rookie card with the $1200 sticker on it and
    tells the clerk that he has $12 will she sell it. Evidently her eyes
    and her brain can't believe that a card could be worth 1200, so she
    sells it for 12.00.
    
    Now, if you're looking to buy a car you go to a car dealership you talk
    to a salesman he says $20,000 you say 10,000, he says sold. You sign
    the papers pay the money and drive away.
    
    You're wanting to buy a house the price is $135,000. You like it, so
    you offer $120,000. The seller says deal. Its your house.
    
    Isn't this the same thing? An offer was made , a counter offer was made
    and a deal consumated.
    
    
    Brian wins in Court or the jury is made up of all card dealers.
    
    
    
    
                                        -pj-
    

    I'm wondering, does the little kid have a receipt for the purchase,
    sort of like the sales slip??  I would think that would be enough proof
    that the kid did everything on the up and up, and the women did her
    part in consciously ringing up the sale, taking the money, $12
    buckaroos, in receipt for the little old baseball card. 
    
    As Yakkee-Smirnoff would say, "What a deallll, are all Americans this 
    dumb" ?

    I just heard on the radio that the trial has been continued.  The trial
    will start on January 27th in the DuPage County, Illinois court system.
    I will keep every on posted on details when they come out.
    
    Regards,
    
    Scott

    Yes I am from the Chicago area and for a while this story has had a lot
    of press coverage.  They did not say on the radio on why the trial has
    been continued but knowing the court system around here, they probably
    had to "bump" it to make room for another trial.
    
    I guess that the trial will not be on Superbowl Sunday.  I heard the
    report on the radio in my car and I guess I didn't catch the correct
    date.
    
    I'll keep the readers posted when I hear something else.
    
    Regards,
    
    Scott

    About a week or two ago, one of the talk radio shows in Chicago
    took a call regarding this very subject.  Apparently the case has not
    come to trial yet.  They did not give any particular reasons for the 
    delay.  Since the trial will take place in suburban Chicago, the news 
    will probably hit all types of the media.  I will continue to be on
    the look out for info and will post it as soon as I hear.
    
    I guess it's getting closer for the time to "play two" at my favorite
    afternoon resort.
    
    Scott  :-`

    Just heard on the radio this morning the kid went to court yesterday
    and the judge asked if the kid had the Nolan Ryan card and the kid
    replied I traded it. Don't know the outcome of the trail.
    
    FYI
    Ken

        
Today's local paper ran an article on the trial that said thatthe 
kid traded the card for a '65 Namath rookie and a '67 Seaver 
rookie, which could book for as much as $2300.00 total in mint.

The store owner testified that he had the card marked "1200" with 
no decimal and no comma. The girl who sold it testified that she thought
the card was marked for $12.00

The judge granted a continuance so the attorney's could figure 
out how they wanted to proceed.

daryll

    The "kid" traded the card the day before the trial.
    This could get interesting.
    
    
    
                                    -pj- 

    
     Nice Kid! I'm sure glad he's not mine! I like to think I have trained
    mine better. I would sure like to see what the parents are like.

    NOW WAIT ONE MINUTE!  If anyone here thinks the kid is at fault they
    better see a head doctor quick.  The kid was on Channel 7 last nite,
    looked like a real nice kid, red hair and freckles, and you mean to
    tell me you wouldn't want him for a son.  There is nothing wrong with
    trading, and the women sold him the card straight up for $12.  I wish
    someone would set this dealer up, like walk into the store with a
    shoebox full of cards, and see what the dealer will offer, but in
    there, place a star card, a Canstiko or Matinglay Rookie and see if the 
    honest dealer is as honest as he wants his patrons to be.  See if he
    gives you honest value.  Anyone want to BET  what he's going to give
    you ??  Anyone else see the Channel 7 clip on this case last nite??

    This kid is great. He buys the Ryan rookie for $12 and Trades it before
     he goes to court for a Namath rookie and Seaver rookie. Does this
    sound like a kid who has only been collecting for 4 years?  The kid
    should open his own store.
    
    
    FWIW
    Ken
    

    >The kid should open his own store.

    And then hire the girl from the other store who sold 
    him the Ryan card for $12! ;-)

	-Pete

    A pic in the Worcester T&G today says this, the kids name is Bryan
    Wrzesinski, from Wheaton ILL., which as you all know, is a very
    religous town, home of Wheaton College, one of the finest Biblical 
    Colleges in the mid-west, anyway, the dealer is suing for $1,188, the
    difference from book value and what he paid.  The card looked mint,
    perfectly centered. and the little boy is smiling and holding the card
    which is incased in plastic.  NICE GOING KID!!

    
    Rep last whole bunch.
    
      I stand my ground. I call it stealing. The kid knew full well the
    worth of the card and as such stole the card. If he had bargained
    for the card "honestly" and had recieved the card at that price
    then more power to him. In this case, I believe he acted outside the
    boundries of fair play, took advantage of the moment, and this is what
    I don't want my offspring to be like.
      If people in here feel that this is correct and they want to raise
    their children to do the same, then go ahead. This is the U.S.A. and
    you have the right to do so. I just hope that people in here respect
    my right to feel the way I do and we can both sleep nights. Somewhere
    there has to be a line drawn between stealing and a deal!

    
    
    .81  I appreciate your feelings and alothough I don't have any kids
    if I did I'd like to think they would know the difference between 
    right and wrong 
    BUT I also value the right of a person to purchase something and 
    if it was sold to me for $12 with no questions asked I'd probably 
    take it and walk. Is this wrong ? maybe maybe not - it goes both ways 
    how many people go to flea markets and yard sales come acorss 
    something worth alot and offer them a $1 for or something people 
    make a living at this. 
    
    If it was you who was at a yard sale and went through a box of junk 
    then came across an old Yaz or Gretsky rookie card and you said to 
    the person how much ? 
    answer : aaahhh give me a quarter  would you say oh no I can't 
    here take $30. or how about $50. no Gretsky tkae $300 it's in good shape. 
    
    
    I wouldn't I'd take it and walk away a very happy camper 
    Rp
     
    
     

	
	I've already expressed my opinion on the act of stealing the card...

	and one way or the other, the kid knew he was being sued. He should
	at least have the decency to let the courts decide whether he is
	allowed to keep the card.  But now that he has traded the card,
	I think they ought to throw the book at him.  That is definately
	not right.

	IMO
	Ed
	

    RE .81
    
    Thanks Bill, my feelings exactly...  I thought I'd be the only one who
    feels this way.  IMO, the kid knew exactly how much the card was worth.
    Saw the price on the card ($1200, NO decimal point), asked the woman
    behind the counter (who knew **NOTHING** about cards), "Hey, you want
    **TWELVE** Dollars for this card, RIGHT???!!!  Definitely unfair
    bargaining....
      
    -Dan
    
    BTW, I thought I heard that the judge "flipped out" when she (yes, she)
    found out that the kid no longer had the card.  Didn't she order the
    card to be confiscated when the trial started??  

    Dan, the judge didn't flip out...it was the dealers' lawyer that had a
    bird.
    
    When push comes to shove it'll be the judge that decides if Brian stole
    the card or got it fairly.
    
    Just remember you're reading about this from newspaper articles not the
    court transcript.
    
    Are you sure that Brian knew that the woman didn't know squat about
    cards?
    
    
    
    As I said before...this is gonna be interesting.
    
    
    
                                              -pj-

    
    Rep .82
    
      About the yard sale thing....Sure lots of people do it, but does that
    make it right? I really doubt it if you really really think about it.
    There is a big difference in making a fair bargain and taking advantage
    of someone. If you know something is worth a lot and you offer them
    a buck for it and get it you can laugh all the way to the bank, but no
    fair deal was struck because the other person had no idea of a fair
    price. If I was to bargain with the person and tell them the worth and
    then convince him that there were reasons (scratches ,no market, dings,
    dents, etc.) that it was only worth a buck and then strike a deal, then
    it's fair play.

It'll be interesting if the Judge determines it to be theft by deception. At 
that time, the person who the kid traded with will be indicted for dealing in
stolen merchandise, with pre-knowledge of same.

Really getting to be an interesting scenario.

JMP

	As far as trading the card away, financially, the kid made a wise
decision.  If the cards he got in the trade, are in fact worth 2000.00 plus,
then, even if he loses the case, he pays the dealer $1,188.00, and the 
difference between that and what he sells the two cards he received in trade
is pure profit!!!  This kid is no dummy, thats for sure.

Beak

    Like I said a couple of hundred lines ago, the store dealer should fire
    the women, and hire this kid.  As I understand, some business men from
    Japan have already offered this kid a six-figure salaried job
    purchasing rare sports cards for their foundation.  This kid is going 
    places and its not to Jail.  What ever happens, I hope the kid doesn't
    get hurt in this deal.  After all, the dealer would have never even 
    been able to make the deal because he's a minor, so why would that card
    even been shown to him if they knew what they were doing.  Sounds like
    a good case in mismanagement, and who usually pays, the dealer.

    
    
    
                       San Jose Mercury News
                     (reprinted w/o permission)
                          March 8th, 1991
    
    
                        "Ryan in custody"
    
      That much coveted Nolan Ryan rookie card surfaced in court in Weaton,
    Ill., on Thursday, and a judge ordered a defense attorney to hold it in
    protective custody until a trial to decide the card's ownership resumes
    April 4.
    
      However, the attorney, who represents a 13 year old boy who snagged
    the $1,200.00 card for $12.00 last year, said he would not keep the
    card because it no longer belongs to his client, who traded it for
    cards picturing Joe Namath and Tom Seaver.
    
      "This is a baseball card, not the Mona Lisa," attorney Walter Maksym
    said. "This is a piece of cardboard that smells like bubble gum."
    
      Maybe so, but that smelly piece of cardboard seems to be worth an
    expensive court fight.
    
    
    
    John D. 

    re.81,.85
    
    I'm curious about your reasoning (not that it's wrong) . Is it based
    upon the extreme difference between the purchase price versus the
    actual/book value (100 times) or based on principal ? If the kid paid
    $1150.00 for the card, is that okay ? Up until this weekend I was 
    thinking upon the same lines as you . Then Sunday afternoon while I was
    finishing my tax returns and was looking for more deductions (in the
    way of charitable contributions that I didn't make) this story came to
    mind . Now I'm undecided ! 8-)
    
    FWIW, 2 weeks ago attended a card show and was eyeing some Kevin
    Johnson rookie cards . They had $8.50 stickers on them . A "kid" asked
    the giy if he'd tke $7.50 for one, to which the guy replied: "Nope,
    they're mint and climbing quickly" I strolled around, went back to that 
    table and offered the guys son (?) $20.00 for all 3 . After some
    jawing,he agreed . I kept 2 and gave the other one to the "kid"  who
    just happened to be my nephew . Did I steal them ? Did I take advantage
    of the guys son ? Were they trying to take advantage of my nephew ?
    
    >Brian< 

    John,
    
    I think if you had enough moxie and money you should sue the dealer. 
    Turnaround is fair play.  It seems the cry is 'buyer beware' unless the
    seller perceived he (the seller) were ripped off.
    
    As a part time dealer, I can say that I don't use a "secret" price
    guide.  I generally use Beckett's and if it's odd-ball stuff I use the
    big price guide.  Often, if I don't know what it's worth and I want to
    sell it I ask the customer to name a price.  If it sounds fair I go
    with it.
    
    joe

    Rep. .93
      Reread .81 carefully and you will see what I mean about "honesty". 
    You have to draw a line somewhere. It seems more and more to me anymore
    when I go to a show, it is getting to be more and more of a game of
    who screws who first or the most. I have seen the attidude turn off
    quite a few poeple who were just trying to enjoy a neat hobbie, and
    I must admit that it is getting to me more and more lately. I was
    taken on a box of Skybox last year. I fell "FOOL" to the hype that
    you just weren't going to be able to get this product anywhere.
      It's a two-way street....If we go around trying to put one by on the
    dealer....then his attidude becomes pretty much the same towards us.
    Try to put yourself in the other guys shoes for a while and try and
    see how he sees you as you deal at his table. If the two of you agree
    on a deal and both know the "book" then you should both be happy as you
    walk away.

    re. 97
    
    	..... never questioned the "honesty" aspect . I was just wondering
    about other reasons that I probably had'nt thought of . The title of your
    reply strikes a very basic and good point. It's easy to loose sight of
    the fact that I look at collecting as an enjoyable hobby at least as
    much, if not more than a profitable hobby .
    
    Thanks for the reply !
    
    	>Brian<

    I personally like running across a real sleazzzzey dealer once in a
    while, especially after a hard weeks work.  I get to have him pull out,
    and open his case ten times, ask him to look at the first one over
    again, and as he's showing you these cards, he is telling you he can do
    better than that price, you talk him down some more, then say, "NO 
    Thanks".  Does that piss them off.  Mean while he just wasted 10
    minutes of selling time on you, but you say, your prices are TOO HIGH!
    The worst kind of dealer is the one armed with every price book put
    out, and as soon as you ask him how much, he goes after that
    over-priced Beckertts Mag.  or some other stiff will say "I'm just
    watching the table for the boss".  Then what go are you, you little
    runt?  Mean while the sleazzy dealer is out scooping all the good deals
    on the floor so he can fill his table.  I have that kids picture
    hanging on my wall, and I hope he wins the case!
    

    I've been reading and trying to figure out why my opinions on this
    are so out of line.  I've taken some notes so be patient.  First
    a background note--I'm a collector and a dealer.
    re .76 ARE YOU NUTS-Red hair and freckles don't make a nice 
        kid.  What do you call a kid that doesn't have either?
        Isn't it what's inside?  Ghengis Kahn was a nice kid
        I know because I saw his picture.  He had red hair and
        freckles.
    re .77 There is only one set of standards.  With many deviations.
        Think of it this way.  How much is stolen at shows by those
        neat kids that have freckles (always a sure sign)
    re .80 Really pissed now.  What the F   does his home town have
        to do with this.   I know - Jack the ripper was a great guy.
        I know because he came from London England and the Queen lives
        there. He didn't have red hair but because he's from London he must
        be OK.  I'm sure there arn"t any sinners in Wheaton,  all of the
        freckelfaced kids at the college are virgins.
    re .86 The Judge flipped out.  She believes that trading evidence 
        is improper even contemptuous.  I'll bet she's a Wheaton Girl.
    
    
    Sidebar-I met a card dealer from Wheaton Ill. that had red hair
        and freckles.  Should I buy all of his cards without 
        negotiating or consulting a guide?
    
    Tony - I miss ya babe- This could be one of our better ones.
    
    
    Mike aka Hometown Hero
    

    This is an article that was printed in the Chicago Tribune today.
    
    Printed without permission
    
    This "card show" no fun any more
    By John Leptich
    
    The readers call, the readers write.
    Who is wrong? Who is right?
    Who'll get the card, the kid or the shop?
    Will this courtroom circus ever stop?
    
    It seemed like a funny story when, last november, I revealed that
    card-shop owner Joe Irmen of Ball-Mart in Addison was suing 13-year-
    old Bryan Wrzesinski of the same village for the return of a 1968 Topps
    Nolan Ryan rookie card.  Irmen says the card was priced at $1200.00 but
    an inexperienced clerk mistakenly sold it to the kid for $12.00.  The
    card was marked "1200" , no comma, with a slash after the number.
    
    After months of continuances, and two days in small claims court in
    Wheaton last week, it's obvious what began as fun is wearing thin.
    
    People all want to know about "the" card, "the" trial and "the" kid.
    People magazine came out to Monday to do its story on the kid.
    
    Wrzesinski, your average teenager who collects baseball cards, is being
    portrayed as a card shark who knows what he's doing in the world of
    cardboard commodities.  Some claim the kid knows the Beckett Baseball
    Card Monthly price guide better than his textbooks and has since he
    was about 9.
    
    Irmen is cast as an inept businessman who, while admitting under oath
    he buys his cards from young boys like Bryan for as little as possible,
    would have high-fived the clerk had the transaction gone HIS way.
    
    While neither description is entirely accurate, some points bear
    making.  Most 13-year-old boys these days know far more about card
    collecting than I did at a similar age.  There were no price guides, 
    investment reports or columns to educate and inform us.  Buy a pack 
    of cards, get a favorite player, be happy.  Period. 
    
    There were no card shops either.  Guys like Irmen made their living
    selling coins, a business from which-if asurvey were taken-it seems
    many of today's card dealers came.
    
    Public sentiment, which was clearly with the kid when the story first
    hit, has shifted away somewhat after he revealed, under oath, he had
    traded the Ryan card for a Topps rookie card of Joe Namath and Tom
    Seaver the night before the trial began.  Many saw the act as less
    naivete than just another scam by a kid-turned-entrepreneur.  Some
    say that, because the cards he traded for have guide values of almost
    double the Ryan, the kid knew he didn't have a 12-buck item.
    
    Everyone wants to know where the boys parents are in all this.  Why
    haven't they insisted he return the card.  "What's wrong with them?"
    observers ask.  "That's the real issue here."
    
    From the beginning, Joe Wrzesinski has said his son did nothing wrong.
    On that basis, he says the boy can keep the card.  Period.  Joe
    Wrzesinski, who isn't commenting these days, has yet to address the
    moral issue- whether it's right to keep the card based on the clerk's
    mistake.
    
    Rumors persist Bryan traded the Ryan to his attorney, Walter Maksym.
    Why else, say some, was the lawyer able to miraculously- and
    ceremoniously- bring the card to court two dayts after the deal in what
    smacks of a grandstand play?
    
    "Absolutely untrue," said Maksym, who steadfastly refuseds to reveal
    the owner.  "I don't collect cards.  I would have to be out of my mind
    to do that [trade].  And, if I did, it would be crazy.  Bryan is a
    minor and could rescind the deal."
    
    While Maksym won't reveal his fee, he denies that, as some indicate,
    it's $500.00.  The same sources say that's all Irmen may be paying.
    Certainly, the publicity is worth plenty to both attorneys.
    
    It's doubtful there will be a resolution when the case resumes April 4,
    one of the suggested dates for a continuance.
    
    Another?  Would you believe April 1, April Folls Day?
    
    Somehow, that would have been appropriate.
    

    
    This dealer should take his lumps; educate his employee's; and dream
    of being able to get an opportunity like that 12 year old did.

    re 103
    John, simply put your wrong.  I am a dealer and I don't endorse anyone 
    ripping off anyone.  I also don't endorse gross exaggerations like
    all dealers are sleezy.   I also don't believe that you think it's 
    OK to steal.  Please reread the notes I referrenced in 213.101.
    MJK 

    The new issue of Sports Illustrated which I forgot to bring in has a
    story about Brian.
    
    Brian isn't a novice collector. Not with a collection of over 40,000
    cards.
    
    The store that he bought the card from ($12.81...81 being the tax) has
    a large sign on the wall "ALL SALES FINAL". I wonder why the dealer
    posted the sign?
    
    According to SI the card has been tagged with an evidence
    identification number for the trial. This card with the tag could bring
    the value of the card up to $3000 says the author.
    
    To top it all off the dealer was selling the card under consignment.
    
    I'm still for the kid. As the dealer says "all sales final".
    
    
    
    
                                   -pj-
    

    If the sign says "All Sales Final", thats enough for me.  That tells 
    me that the dealer doesn't want to bother with kids comming in and
    spending their college savings, and their mothers and fathers coming
    back later to return the merchandise for refund.  Also, if the guy
    sells something to you for a higher price, and you find it cheaper down
    the road, he doesnt want to bother with this type of stuff.  This is
    your typical dealer, and believe me they are not all like this.  He 
    could have handled this better, but he choose to hard line his stance,
    and he WILL LOOSE.  I hope.

    playing devil's advocate here, I see some legitment reasons for this
    policy. If the customer is unscrupulous , he/she could purchase a set
    and come back and claim a valuable rookie is missing, or upgrade a card
    he has and return an inferior quality one etc. 
    BTW, this sign always infuriates me. Also I don't think just because a
    dealer puts up a sign "All sales final" that this is a legal binding
    agreement between the dealer and the customer.
    
    John

    Nothing has been in the media lately.  The last item I saw on this was
    the article from the Tribune that I typed in.  I guess that they are
    waiting to resume the trial sometime in the first week of April.  
    
    Scott:-'
    

    213.111
    Perhaps the reason that no one has said hang the dealer is because
    they don't know the facts.  If the dealer ripped off the kid
    he should be punished in acdcordance with the law.
    By the way the guy had an all sales final no returns sign in his store
    does that make it ok?
    Mike

    He can have all the signs he wants on the walls. But a minor is a
    minor. The dealer isn't being punished, per se, he's learning to watch
    who he enters into a contract with.
    
    
    
                                            -pj-

    I've heard through the grape-vine that the kid signed Reggie's name,
    and the card is a forgery.  Thats right, the kids have pulled another
    fast-one on the dealer, and had his mother go in to make it look
    like it was an authentic Reggie Jackson autograph card worth $$$$$
    when in fact it was really a fake.  Can there really be that many "dumb" 
    dealers out there?  Now how can you blame the kids when these dealers
    are suppose to be card "experts" and know "everything" about the
    business.  The Judge should punish these knuckel-head dealers for being
    in the business to begin with, and clogging up the court systems with
    this nonsense.  No wonder why the drug dealers are running around
    loose, they cant get a court date because these dealers are suing
    everybody who walks in and makes a bargin sale in there card store.   

    I heard on the news they settled out of court today, giving the card up
    for auction and the profits being split and given to charity...

    Guess we'll never know who was right??  The kid would have made out if
    he just hung in there for the decision.  Look at George Forman, he stuck it
    out and lost the fight, but won the war.  He will make more in
    endorsments than Hollifield will ever make.  The kid could have won.

    Wait a minute.
    
    I thought that the kid traded the card to a third party for some rookie
    cards worth more than the Ryan card.
    
    How did he come into possesion of THE card again? Come-on Chicago fill
    in the holes.
    
    
    
                                                      -pj-

    If you were the one that traded Brian for the Ryan rookie, would you
    'undo' the trade?
    
    I personnally don't think that there was anything to 'undo'.
    Me thinks he kept the card all along.
    
    
    
    
    
    
                                            -pj-

>    If you were the one that traded Brian for the Ryan rookie, would you
>    'undo' the trade?
>    
>    I personnally don't think that there was anything to 'undo'.
>    Me thinks he kept the card all along.

The way I heard it (don't recall from where) was that he had traded
with his lawyer...

Dan

    Thats even better...the lawyer (is it true in order to graduate law
    school you first must have owned and operated a card shop?) takes his
    own evidence and trades it to himself.
    
    
    
    
    This guy must have owned a chain of card stores.
    
    
    
                                    -pj-
    
    
    
    

    
    I didn't hear he traded with his lawyer but heard that the judge
    "ordered" the trade undone.  I guess they can do that.
    
    Steve

    Well the saga has ended.
    
    The card was auctioned off for $5000.
    
    The monies going to charity.
    
    
                                      -pj-