T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
1431.1 | number 4 | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu Apr 25 1991 16:49 | 28 |
| >(4) Is i greater than 0 or less than 0 ? (i is the square root of -1).
this one is easy.
since the class of complex numbers is larger than class of integers
we can represent both as complex number:
let a= 0+ I*0
let b= 0+ I*1
so a-b = (0+ I*0) - ( 0 + I*1)
= 0 - I
if a-b >= 0+I*0 then
a>= b
else a < b
but a-b < 0 + 0*I
so a <b
i.e. 0+ 0*I < 0+ 1*I
i.e. 0 is less than I
/naser
|
1431.2 | There's a flaw in the ointment | VMSDEV::HALLYB | The Smart Money was on Goliath | Thu Apr 25 1991 17:05 | 7 |
| > but a-b < 0 + 0*I
What is the justification for this line?
John
p.s., This really is a joke, right?
|
1431.3 | justification? | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu Apr 25 1991 19:11 | 17 |
| well john,
if iam wrong , then this is a joke, if iam right, then iam very serious!
how do you compare 2 complex numbers? if I use R(length of vector) and
Phi (angle) on the complex plan for comparing the 'values', then
R for (0+ 1*I) = 0+1 = 1
R for (0+ 0*I) = 0
and both angles are equal.
then 0+ 0*I < 0 + 1*I
actually my first reaction was to say that you cant compare apples to
oranges, but if express both as complex numbers you could.
/naser
|
1431.4 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Thu Apr 25 1991 19:19 | 27 |
| An ordered field is a field in which there is a strict
linear order < that satisfies
for all a,b,c: a < b ==> a + c < b + c
for all a,b,c: a < b and c positive ==> ac < bc
("c positive" means 0 < c)
The reals are an ordered field using the usual order.
There is no order relation on the complex plane that will
make the complex numbers into an ordered field.
For example, if 0 < i, then using the second rule above
with a=0, b=c=i yields 0i < i^2 or 0 < -1. Using the
second rule again with a=0, b=c=-1 gives 0 < 1. But
using the first rule with a=0,b=-1,c=1 gives 1 < 0. This
contradicts that < is a strict linear ordering.
Likewise, if i < 0, then adding -i to both sides by the
first rule gives 0 < -i, and multiplying both sides by -i
by the second rule again gives 0 < -1 which leads to the
same contradiction.
So you can invent linear orderings of the complex
numbers, but not in a way that makes them an ordered
field with the usual arithmetic operations.
Dan
|
1431.5 | i was joking .. offcourse | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu Apr 25 1991 19:36 | 13 |
| ok, cant we invent our own ordering relation on complex numbers that
will satisfy the above conditions? make our own algebra.
assume length of vector was the order. (ignore angle)
then that takes us back to the real field.
so a=0 has length 0
b=I has length 1
so a<b i.e. 0<I in this agebra.
|
1431.6 | (6) | CHOVAX::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Fri Apr 26 1991 03:31 | 11 |
| >(6) What are the last 4 digits of 5 to the 7777th power ?
> (YOu are not allowed to use a calculator. Anyone who uses a
> calculator will be expelled, their reputation tarnished, their
> future ruined and their children left to fend for themselves
> in a cold and hostile world.)
No calculators? Hmmm. I guess computers are OK then?
No? Well then, I would say that the answer was "3125".
-- Barry
|
1431.7 | he is RIGHT !! | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Fri Apr 26 1991 13:57 | 94 |
| ref .-1 (Barry)
He Is RIGHT !
below is the proof
this is my calcuations, took me 43 hours and plenty of coffee to compute :-)
I wonder How many hours did it take you ?
77575345986817035105916821854909000686574093573482823257759620783761750
45338203402426097968752443686951907337901773428893988313694611944602011
81663460084338132578291386091259472280222217103195299791412438868155591
08254636447252475290124153970444621379125204280090556574030047515119001
89799970847099490736990370155655726921359883288044357560195198891994572
11038165339686247774160774643493704422324621366849330101473417449103368
01662777367030229330626847843415401670592730198618034589067672394436878
70748380935320941047794404087793703184074972527540962356127847576179466
13895453600834067692732725779815636343869416117693596340524674810397396
36502590877866943219871066338668717553906186182627341495409549950785486
59929296644734163817229665970634467991168821532700707874514498759811243
41609383632236488641361075301092059931880305384058137864079117211842710
37265059478350840819538310156651510756030401524255776364072545142463115
39238201175988221477475982225213462366036157400176873893323041979726349
09111526339117407241563063853642939032830561709668634714577899644104934
20042408087364640540643492266223292303682043561529443090440479396456243
10196740347756232800946636437521338022538867738551345760000502473523293
65975812529010022036876075027977333177381320632929789849126787300907487
62224239060577928661565610594197491059103932510954161664357981544845325
71869416616055638535405480457398782036914505337142027514669122265307847
37515770548458875249211009009004468927029873802101099895620068288403054
29558676992942748379298699313920865181333155066595809220688089767823466
64974021155016023895582786017361772792599546965517074491056736699906683
84157026098704364149414922818777844820110773272953324767676319423448339
55789581890511242674344311125636633778438226951631652476981896563053892
99974688698077005519805465545494730172523350726632597933448525465880072
37287008970291107788830679262928914444893069661082290532394247278199271
06664174367527722502030781868101928896083045758229262162437621399671609
83089644537640127576862980184185085228515704635452993940641075253767285
75461361459276776976626095501961376583632482115056414098933591251533046
94930608028432222283804732157847388990573322519250166293201296909413988
39687167760563349226383866793408064236108061237979203785041308411986754
37309180464559539776878907953483899798627912007781902206248884465708287
03147138432536922509071978491238079063765136765975145754741143679267305
33386869312911672278117049610481582680153425516781147981371193628509158
93060629051617744048370376781274030926136704791734753315885430365158695
09334295178570041043772999696982912552844762376610897612386820106496141
02974446195310930740244907146276018135049789341115615199346384016800805
84869833249352228490957536624973458675536662033792010064035607108884459
89845956879509114704686233313551496049205323336187000283829510188960346
91973147965408036392872722312885745691851618765312031763337529084624758
78993363703804443381401627675586027225833747213216923715288154777299496
10839021856614280810565814240856618403095276714491157100554578133823103
76177376961133667658025317767173320498586142738954782690669434787279754
72829490013373726344196678662332355336347095509529168739142543072562331
46745748179449856328676820531837785392168894204508150308003004991261247
11639858957977869986053019652833301955456987066633450285930822241200475
60970092046556521604115997820892485897624694267728849471636901264301969
56213305011661761564357916190902457805876386729987652808204625417632342
80793260213552726283852795567831189050083285887151319989846021819432906
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46766717885496759599265904842002700954027839800006392415395156264538554
22434213435935209094309637101580416512760216175000521295483711171596980
63386925875217032881404158254046851897416616665904428707598122122539846
04918917729130749400515124394909952670313781565762938881041601824141843
75287712230610878228557985456652303092261390502178193227106850373611703
81450468381351332475190317226730960153347112251278509657441140436192430
88818371564454684276285414698425906037882370411640675079934999825965774
38891829206139624169299996109484988806765091839869609291000592832612196
99795100604093252863806132136856182899678417345355272443857631562279032
39266334102586994333657230207450840957185083262354317661895912370669555
91902983019886169214612465751343574848165414536478096766933068808744404
45703729717295154552887060732749412914425753074325462388795143436935926
41496773467412648591618223787221677574379193271867347451976010151175516
66323681282790422511646667184577960661489321801119881144801321368561828
99678417345355272443857631562279032392663341025869943336572302074508409
57185083262354317661895912370669555919029830198861692146124657513435748
48165414536478096766933068808744404457037297172951545528870607327494129
14425753074325462388795143436935926414967734674126485916182237872216775
74379193271867347451976010151175516663236812827904225116466671845779606
61489321801119881144806571225919955856183619075544056479058065505586678
27325568777103699193956697843685632680703635939279917934930319975601140
14284033578042646187483494942373784048746930426833774294704448527664800
56413830164847005676513995937061201492404818455574450688675827484816942
64563112305226766172027790062611843780508132227973295801559398200158511
62274602717667458268706209404067145965592231711200429636084958091080815
56116782451767384948206617143017690099098759324086313075995341458003926
29470260967487803257401159157623432646552603384578605812485879289228920
02444542487344758329238525537611507850103333849636139412947214657829120
49915417544224808028344099967080485938142442234828211976925770759013577
08142064047423490975134545128954988325127556112674517938471995061968576
72196684351274201893868597800223586152812416116830718237906694412231445
3125
^^^^
|
1431.8 | About 5 minutes! | METSYS::TOWERS | Ah, but I was so much older then; I'm younger than that now | Fri Apr 26 1991 15:17 | 35 |
| re. 1431.7
I'm lost for words!
After a few jottings with pencil and paper (cue old joke about
constipated mathematician) form the hypothesis that -
5 ** (4n+1) ends in 3125
n=1
---
5 ** 5 = 3125
n=k+1
-----
Assume true for n=k. Then
5 ** (4k+5) = 5 ** (4k+1) * 625
5 ** (4k+1) = m*10000 + 3125 for some integer m
so 5 ** (4k+5) = 3125 * 625 + 625m*10000
= 1953125 + 625m*10000
therefore hypothesis is true for k+1.
Therefore hypothesis is true for all integer n > 0.
7777 = 4*1944 + 1
Therefore 5 ** 7777 ends in 3125.
Brian
|
1431.9 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Fri Apr 26 1991 15:55 | 7 |
| Right. It's easy to see that the powers of 5 mod 10000
go 5^0 = 1, 5, 25, 125, 625, 3125, 5625, 8125, 625, ...
^
| |
------------------------
Dan
|
1431.10 | that's looks too easy , not allowed :-) | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Fri Apr 26 1991 19:34 | 5 |
| ref .8
Yes, but if you do it this way, you dont get tp experience the thrill
of long multiplications :-)
|
1431.11 | Works for harder problems too. | CHOSRV::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Sat Apr 27 1991 15:51 | 15 |
| Re .7:
I was wondering if anyone would ask how long it took me. ;-)
For the record, with no calculator or computing it took me about 60
seconds.
As previous replies indicate, a little insight (ie. analysis) goes a
long way with this problem. The irony is that the method that I used
works well (with only a little bit more work) for much more 'difficult'
problems that do not have the obvious cycles that 5^X does.
For instance, what are the last four digits of 7^7777 ?
-- Barry
|
1431.12 | found last 2 digits...only | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Sat Apr 27 1991 23:32 | 33 |
|
ref .-1 (Barry)
I've got the last 2 digits. is this good enough ?
I did few multiplications and saw the pattern repeate for the
right most 2 digits, and so I figured since this is a determinstic world
and GOD does't play dice, the pattern will repeate forever :
07 ---
49 | pattern 07,49,43,01 repeat
343 |
2401 ---
16807
117649
823543
5764801
since it repeates every 4 rows, and we have 7777/4 sets of 4 rows
i.e 1944.25 sets of 4 rows, .25 of 4 is one, so we last row will be
the one with last 2 digits "07"
I wanted to do the proof by induction, but I love VLMM more, plus
for induction method, one needs to start with a hypothises, and cant
see one here.
so are you going to tell us you great method?
/naser
VLMM = Very Long Multiplication Methods
it took me 25 minutes, including break time to make some tea.
|
1431.13 | 1207 | CHOVAX::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Mon Apr 29 1991 04:55 | 80 |
| Well it's sort of like a magic trick in that once you know how
to do it, you will not think that it is that great. But if you do not
know it it seems miraculous. (Remember, I used to dabble in Lightning
Calculator type stuff).
And really, the previous replies are about 90% of the way there.
Someone else will probably figure it out by the end of the day (it
really isn't very hard).
Well, just for the record here it is, work and all:
1:33am
7^1 = 7
7^2 = 49
7^3 = 343
7^4 = 2401
7^5 = 16807
= k*10^4 + 6807 where k= any non-negative integer
7^10 = k*k*10^8 + 2*k*10^4 + (6807)^2
47649
52456
40842
-------------
46135249
= k*10^4 + 5249
7^20 = 47241
20996
10498
26245
-------------
27553001
= k*10^4 + 3001 <-- Lucky break!
7^40 = k*10^4 + 6001
7^80 = k*10^4 + 2001
7^160 = k*10^4 + 4001
7^320 = k*10^4 + 8001
7^640 = k*10^4 + 6001
7^1280 = k*10^4 + 2001
7^2560 = k*10^4 + 4001
7^5120 = k*10^4 + 8001
7^7680 = 7^5120 * 7^2560 = k*10^4 + ( 8001 * 4001 )
= k*10^4 + 2001
7^7760 = 7^7680 * 7^80 = k*10^4 + ( 2001 * 2001 )
= k*10^4 + 4001
7^7770 = 7^7760 * 7^10 = k*10^4 + ( 2001 * 5249 )
10498
--------
10503249
= k*10^4 + 3249
7^7775 = 7^7770 * 7^5 = k*10^4 + (3249 * 6807)
61263
27228
13614
20421
--------
22115943
= k*10^4 + 5943
7^7777 = 7^7775 * 7^2 = k*10^4 + ( 5943 * 49 )
53487
23772
------
291207
= k*10^4 + 1207
Therefore, the answer is "1207".
-- Barry
|
1431.14 | Caveat Emptor... | CHOVAX::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Mon Apr 29 1991 04:58 | 8 |
| I did not check this by the way. I just did it as I typed it in.
Someone else (MAPLE?) may want to check it. I haven't done long
multiplication in years and I may well have messed up.
The principle still applies, however.
-- Barry
|
1431.15 | labour-saving device | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Mon Apr 29 1991 12:47 | 26 |
| You don't have to multiply anything out to the power of 7777.
Suppose that you're interested in the last k digits of n^a. This
is n^a mod 10^k. Let's assume for simplicity that (10,n) = 1, although the
argument develops in a similar way (actually simpler) if (10,n) = 2,5 or 10.
n^a mod 10^k is defined by n^a mod 5^k and n^a mod 2^k
So let's pursue these independently. The first thing
to note is that the group of numbers prime mod p^k is cyclic, of order
(p-1)*p^(k-1), *unless* p=2, in which case the group has a cyclic subgroup of
index 2. Thus we know immediately, that as a increases, the last
k digits of n^a will repeat themselves with a period which will divide:
4*5^(k-1) & 2^max(1,k-2)
which is:
5^(k-1) * 2^max(2,k-2)
In the case of k=4, this means that the period of n^a divides 500.
So in particular, 7^7777 == 7^277 mod 10^4. In fact, 7^100 == 1 mod 5^4,
and 7^2 == 1 mod 16, so "all you need to find" are the last 4 digits of 7^77,
since 7^a has period 100.
This is similar to the way in which 5^a has period 4, for k >= 4,
which Dan showed.
Regards,
Andrew.
|
1431.16 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Mon Apr 29 1991 14:10 | 13 |
1431.17 | number = sum of powers of its digits | CLT::TRACE::GILBERT | Ownership Obligates | Mon Apr 29 1991 14:44 | 34 |
1431.18 | Those reals are slippery rascals | CIVAGE::LYNN | Lynn Yarbrough @WNP DTN 427-5663 | Mon Apr 29 1991 15:54 | 16 |
| >(1) Any positive real number can be represented as an infinite
> decimal (e.g.3.14159265358979323846...), possibly ending in
> all zeroes or all nines.
No, it can't. It takes too long. You can *begin* to represent one, but you
can't do it. By the way, you failed to do it, *even for a well-known case*,
in the statement above. :-)
> We teach students how to add decimals.
> How do we add positive real numbers represented as infinitely
> long decimals ? How do we subtract or multiply or divide them ?
We don't. In general, real numbers are not representable unless they are
functions of integers. Only if the functional representation happens to
exist can you find a functional representation for arithmetic operations on
them.
|
1431.19 | You extend rationals to include the reals | DECWET::BISHOP | Asshi nya kakawari no ne~koto degozansu | Mon Apr 29 1991 16:25 | 23 |
| As Lynn said, in practice no one ever uses anything but rationals
for +-*/ and ^. However, the rest of the reals are needed for theoretical
reasons, e.g., to make calculations about the circumference of a circle in units
of its radius, and to prove theorems to keep mathematicians employed.
There is a theorem that says something to the effect that a field that
is **** (I can't remember the word) like the rationals can be *completed* by
defining reals to be equivalence classes of converging (in the Cauchy sense)
sequences of rationals. Then it's easy to show that the usual arithmetic
operations still follow the piano axioms (is "axia" the plural of axiom?).
For example, if r = a/b, where a & b are integers, then
x^r = (x^a)^(1/b) (assuming whatever is needed to make this make sense).
If the irrational r is r = [a1/b1, a2/b2, a3/b3, ...], then
x^r = [x^(a1/b1), x^(a2/b2), x^(a3/b3), ...].
And, in fact, any continuous function on an irrational is defined in the
same manner.
Avery
|
1431.20 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Mon Apr 29 1991 18:16 | 15 |
| re .19,
>> There is a theorem that says something to the effect that a field that
>> is **** (I can't remember the word) like the rationals can be *completed* by
>> defining reals to be equivalence classes of converging (in the Cauchy sense)
>> sequences of rationals. Then it's easy to show that the usual arithmetic
>> operations still follow the piano axioms (is "axia" the plural of axiom?).
"Peano axioms" (it's a person's name).
"Complete" and "Cauchy sequence" are terms that apply to
metric spaces. So what you need is an absolute value
function on the field.
Dan
|
1431.21 | I knew that ... | DECWET::BISHOP | Asshi nya kakawari no ne~koto degozansu | Mon Apr 29 1991 21:41 | 16 |
| > "Peano axioms" (it's a person's name).
An unfortunate typo. Your right about this.
Oh well, their are lots more important things to worry about. Its
to bad I didn't sea that won.
> "Complete" and "Cauchy sequence" are terms that apply to
> metric spaces. So what you need is an absolute value
> function on the field.
Right. The fact that you are in a metric space is essential. In
fact, depending on what you are doing, it doesn't necessarily have to
be a field to be extended continuously, as long as it has a metric.
-avery
|
1431.22 | Re .16: :-( | CHOSRV::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Tue Apr 30 1991 02:29 | 1 |
| Bummer.
|
1431.23 | | CHOSRV::YOUNG | Still billing, after all these years. | Tue Apr 30 1991 02:35 | 4 |
| My critical error in .15 was that 7^20 should have had a residue of
2001, *not* 3001.
-- Barry
|
1431.24 | new problem: proof complicated radical is irrational | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Wed May 01 1991 03:02 | 32 |
| I thought I'll add this here, since it seems a 'subtle' problem
(to me at least);
we all know the proof that 2^.5 is irrational:
let c= 2^.5 = m/n to lowest terms
c^2= m^2/n^2
2 n^2= m^2
so 2 n^2 is even, so m^2 is even , so m is even, let m= 2x
so 2 n^2 = 4 x^2
so n^2 = 2 x^2
so n^2 is even, i.e n is even
but then m and n are even, contradicting the assumption that m/n are
to lowest common terms.
now to show that othe radicals are irrationals might not be so easy
example ------------------
/ ------------
/ / ----
7 / 4 / /
\/ 6 - \/ 5 + \/ 11
---
is an irrational, to proof it , i started similarly to \/2
and let the above beast = m/n, then take power 7th, etc..
my question, do you see a short cut to show above is irrational?
is the method must go along the lines of 2^.5 ?
the above one got really messy in expansion even with maple help.
thank you,
/naser
|
1431.25 | yes, there is a clean way | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Wed May 01 1991 10:30 | 30 |
| > now to show that other radicals are irrationals might not be so easy
> example ------------------
> / ------------
> / / ----
> 7 / 4 / /
> \/ 6 - \/ 5 + \/ 11
Call this chap x. ((6 - x^7)^4 - 5)^2 - 11 = 0
This is a *monic* polynomial. ("monic" means the term of highest
degree (56) has coefficient 1.) Thus x is what is known as an "algebraic
integer".
There is an easy theorem which says that the only rational, algebraic
integers are the integers themselves. Now x can't be an integer, because
if it were, then so is _/11. Thus x is irrational.
Incidentally, I've always felt that the term "algebraic integer" is
very misleading, since it does *not* mean "an integer which is algebraic".
All integers are algebraic.
Algebraic integers are very important in group representation theory.
All entries in the character table of a finite group over the complex field
must be algebraic integers. The fact that such entries cannot be non-integer
rationals is, I seem to recall, a critical step of Burnside's p-alpha-q-beta
lemma, which shows that all groups with order p-alpha-q-beta, where p & q
are prime, must be soluble.
Regards,
Andrew.
|
1431.28 | clarification | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Wed May 01 1991 16:19 | 32 |
| > There is an easy theorem which says that the only rational, algebraic
>integers are the integers themselves.
It occured to me that I should show the theorem, since it's here
that you actually see the generalization from the _/2 irrationality proof.
Also, I didn't make clear that the monic polynomials I was referring to
must have coefficients drawn from the integers.
Suppose we have a monic poly over the integers:
t^n + a_(n-1)*t^(n-1) + ... + a_1*t + a_0
and that a rational written b/c in lowest terms is a zero of this poly.
Then multiplying through by c^n, we've got:
b^n + a_(n-1)*b^(n-1)*c + ... + a_1*b*c^(n-1) + a_0*c^n = 0
Take this mod p, where p is some prime dividing c:
b^n == 0 mod p.
Yet (b,c) = 1, contradiction. So no such p exists so c is 1. End.
Another neat fact is that the set of algebraic integers is closed
under addition, subtraction and multiplication.
Cheers,
Andrew.
PS: Thanks Avery for correcting a typo in an earlier version of this.
|
1431.29 | ??? | DECWET::BISHOP | F. Avery Bishop, back in the US for now | Wed May 01 1991 20:34 | 12 |
| re .-1:
> Another neat fact is that the set of algebraic integers is closed
>under addition, subtraction and multiplication.
So it's a ring, in fact, a division ring. Is it a field? That is, if
a is a solution of p() and b is a zero of q(), with p and q monic
polynomials with integer coefficients, what can you say about a/b?
Nothing comes to mind ...
avery
|
1431.30 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Wed May 01 1991 21:00 | 8 |
| It's not a field ... 1/2 is not an algebraic integer, but
1 and 2 are. What's a division ring?
The algebraic integers are just the algebraic numbers
that are zeroes of monic polynomials (coefficient of
highest degree term is 1). 1/2 is the zero of 2x - 1.
Dan
|
1431.31 | Dumb question | DECWET::BISHOP | F. Avery Bishop, back in the US for now | Thu May 02 1991 14:07 | 12 |
| > It's not a field ... 1/2 is not an algebraic integer, but
> 1 and 2 are. What's a division ring?
That's what you just proved in .28. Sorry, I wasn't thinking when
I asked the question.
A division ring is one in which cancellation works, even though
multiplicative inverses aren't defined. That is,
a*b = a*c implies b = c.
avery
|
1431.32 | new subtle problem: on cube numbers | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu May 02 1991 14:25 | 8 |
| Another easy subtle problem for you number theory folks:
a*b = c
a,b are relatively prime, c is a cubic number , prove that a,b must
then each be cubic numbers.
thanks,
/naser
|
1431.33 | not *too* subtle, is it? | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Thu May 02 1991 14:43 | 5 |
| The subtlety, I suppose, is that this works over the integers, and not
just over the naturals.
Regards,
Andrew.
|
1431.34 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Thu May 02 1991 14:56 | 43 |
| re .31
>> A division ring is one in which cancellation works, even though
>> multiplicative inverses aren't defined. That is,
>>
>> a*b = a*c implies b = c.
That must be assuming a is not 0.
Aha. Any ring between the integers and the complex
numbers has no zero dividers (nonzero elements the
product of which is zero) and so for such a ring
ab = ac ==> ab - ac = 0
==> a(b - c) = 0
==> a = 0 or b - c = 0
==> a = 0 or b = c
Likewise if ab = ac implies b = c for nonzero a, then
for nonzero a you have
ab = 0 ==> ab = a0
==> b = 0
So it sounds like division rings are rings without zero
dividers, although other conditions may apply.
I tend to see rings classified with the following three
features, with the most general case being not having the
feature:
commutative
with unity [i.e., a multiplicative identity]
with no zero dividers
If you have all three the ring is called an integral
domain.
Are these three conditions independent of each other
(i.e. for each of the eight combinations of having/not
having that property does such a ring exist)?
Dan
|
1431.35 | I'll try proof by induction.. | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu May 02 1991 17:58 | 2 |
| ref .33 (Andrew)
Thanks, but how does proof this? proof by induction?
|
1431.37 | | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Thu May 02 1991 19:23 | 7 |
| It's curious that I was just reading the other day an article about
intuitionist math which asked as an exercise for a proof that _/2 was irrational
which was not a reductio ad absurdum proof. At the time, I couldn't think of
one...
Regards,
Andrew
|
1431.38 | Use the prime factorization theorem. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Thu May 02 1991 19:27 | 32 |
1431.39 | that's good solution | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Thu May 02 1991 20:03 | 10 |
| ref .-1 (Topher)
That's a neat solution!
Oh well..I guess I will always have chess to fall back to...
Iam going to look for something to hit my head with, may be this
will help fix the problem.
Thanks..
/naser
|
1431.40 | Re .37: The proof in .28 can be changed to a direct proof | DECWET::BISHOP | F. Avery Bishop, back in the US for now | Thu May 02 1991 20:34 | 32 |
| The following is a comment on style of proof, NOT on the validity
of .28, which is obviously well done.
I had a math professor who discouraged us from using indirect
(reductio ad absurdum) proofs if it could be avoided. Many
indirect proofs assume that an object is of a certain form, then
show it can't be because it is of a different form. These proofs
can be rewritten in a positive manner by simply removing the initial
assumption and deriving the form in the proof.
For example, in .28, the last line in
>Take this mod p, where p is some prime dividing c:
>
> b^n == 0 mod p.
>
>Yet (b,c) = 1, contradiction. So no such p exists so c is 1. End.
can be re written as
Since (b,c) = 1, the only prime that divides c is 1, so the
rational root b/c of the polynomial is an integer.
That is, it is as easy to show that if the root is rational, it
must be an integer, as it is to assume a rational root that is not
an integer and arrive at a contradiction because it IS a integer.
They are both logically equivalent, but the former is more
acceptable to the constructionists, and in some cases easier
to follow.
Avery
|
1431.41 | | HERON::BUCHANAN | Holdfast is the only dog, my duck. | Fri May 03 1991 08:52 | 21 |
| Re -.1, yes the rewriting possibility crossed my mind. This was why
I implicitly alleged a few replies ago that the proof I gave essentially did not
involve RAA.
More generally, I do not have a good "intuitive " :-) feel for what
kinds of things are possible in constructivist mathematics, compared to the
vanilla variety. It could be for instance that some results that we assumed
to get the non-RAA proof of the rationality of _/2 rely on RAA themselves.
It could be, but I don't think it is. Until I actually understand the
intuitionist arguments and implications, it would be mere superstition of me
to avoid RAA.
The aesthetic issue is a different one. I agree with Avery that
other things being equal, a constructive proof is simpler to state. An RAA
proof is like using a sentence with a double negative: although one's first
draft of a sentence may include a double negative because that's the way that
the thought occured to one, later editing should iron out the wrinkle. However,
one doesn't always have time to do this...
Cheers,
Andrew.
|
1431.42 | What is "intuitive"? | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Fri May 03 1991 17:35 | 94 |
1431.43 | mathematical intution -> intuitive proofs ? | SMAUG::ABBASI | | Sun May 05 1991 04:26 | 2 |
| Srinivasa Ramanujan was described (among other things) as having a great
mathematical 'intuition' .
|
1431.44 | intuitionism | MOVIES::HANCOCK | Peter Hancock | Sun May 05 1991 17:45 | 31 |
| re Intuitionism:
I (used to) feel rather convinced by intuitionistic criticisms of
classical logic.
The basis of the difference is in what you hold to be knowing the
meaning of a mathematical proposition. The intuitionistic view
is that knowing the meaning of a statement means knowing what would
count as a proof of it. The classical view is that it is knowing what
would be the case were it true. In a slogan, it is "proof conditions
versus truth conditions".
If you write out the rules of intuitionistic logic in a natural deduction
style, the introduction rules for the logical constants are the formal
counterpart of the proof conditions. It is rather striking that rules
such as reductio ad absurdum, or excluded middle, which must be added
to get classical logic, stick out like a sore thumb when the rules are
formulated in this way. (I'd explain this if challenged.)
Real mathematics doesn't really get carried out with delicate attention
to logical subtleties like these. But in practice any real mathematical
result has an intuitionistically provable counterpart. There was a book
by a constructive mathematician caller Erret Bishop (a measure theorist)
which showed how to what measure theory (and other things) looked like
when done constructively. There are also formal results, which show how
how to translate deductions in classical calculi so as to expose their
constructive content. I used to find this all rather fascinating. Perhaps
I still do.
|
1431.45 | | HPSTEK::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Mon May 06 1991 05:15 | 27 |
| David Hilbert had a great line about the intuitionists. The
intuitionists were let by some guy (Brower?) in France. Hilbert was
initially neutral about this debate. Then he solved Gordon's problem
with some very clever non-constructive argument (When Gordon first saw
that proof, he said "This is not mathematics. This is theology"
because the theorem is about the existance of some basis. Rather than
constructing such a basis as Gordon and other mathematicians of the
time were trying to do, Hilbert showed that such a basis must exist).
Well, after Hilbert solved Gordon's problem he naturally joined the
side against the intuitionists, and his great argument against the
intuitionists was an ontological one (the same stuff that was used to
prove the existence of God in the middle ages):
When a French mathematician was visiting Goettingen, and got into a
debate on constructive mathematics. In the heat of the debate, Hilbert
said,
It is obvious that we the non-intuitive mathematicians can prove more
theorems than the intuitionists. Given the choice of more theorems or
less theorems, I say we choose to have more theorem.
This was how low the debate went, but I also think Hilbert had a point
in what he said. That is there isn't really any point debating it
since the nature of the debate is a philosophical one not a mathematical
one, and one might as well use the ontological argument for that.
Eugene
|
1431.46 | Some intuitionists. | MOVIES::HANCOCK | Peter Hancock | Mon May 06 1991 12:12 | 24 |
| Brouwer was Dutch.
He was a Nazi collaborator in the war (I hope I'm not repeating a smear).
He was a brilliant topologist: I think he is most famous for something
called Brouwers fixed point theorem (which he proved by a non-constructive
argument: I heard that disatisfaction with his proof is what led him
into the foundations of mathematics).
Another mathematician whose name is somewhat linked with the intuitionists
is Kolmogorov, the Russian who laid the foundations for probability theory.
It was he who first explained the semantics of the intuitionistic logical
connectives. (In his formulation, proposition = problem, proof = solution.)
I'm not sure whether he can be described as an intuitionist.
I know of one (living) mathematician with some reputation who is a serious
constructivist: the Swedish statistician Per Martin-Lof (whose name is
connected with the theory of randomness [see Knuth], and was a
student of Kolmogorov). When working as a statistician, he was perfectly
content to publish non-constructive arguments. I think he held that by
suitable reformulations (which would interest logicians more than
statisticians), constructively impeccable results could be obtained: at
any rate, in mathematics that anyone could apply in practice.
|
1431.47 | speaking of Hilbert's "great line", try this | HANNAH::OSMAN | see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240 | Mon May 06 1991 18:01 | 95 |
| $!
$! Here's an example of a recursive function in DCL, which prints
$! fascinating Hilbert curves. IT REQUIRES A REGIS TERMINAL, SUCH AS
$! VT240.
$!
$! Save this procedure as HILBERT.COM. Then, run it with
$!
$! $ @HILBERT 4
$!
$! Then, you can experiment with other small integers.
$!
$! Author: Eric Osman 12/12/86
$!
$ all_options = p3 + p4 + p5 + p6 + p7 + p8
$ debug_flag = all_options .nes. ""
$ if .not. debug_flag then on control_y then goto leave
$ esc[0,8] = 27
$ if debug_flag then esc = "`"
$ s = p2
$ if s .eqs. "" then s = 15
$ level = 0
$ h0 = 180
$ hx180 = -1
$ hy180 = 0
$ h1 = 90
$ hx90 = 0
$ hy90 = 1
$ h2 = 0
$ hx0 = 1
$ hy0 = 0
$ h3 = 270
$ hx270 = 0
$ hy270 = -1
$ width = 800
$ height = 500
$ h = 270
$ !if .not. debug_flag then -
$ write sys$output "''esc'[2J''"
$ x = 0
$ y = 22 * height / 24
$ write sys$output "''esc'P1pP[''x',''y']"
$ whereto'level = "m0"
$ newarg = p1
$ if newarg .eqs. "" then newarg = 5
$ goto recursing
$m0: goto leave
$!
$recursing: level = level + 1
$ n'level = newarg
$ if n'level .eq. 0 then goto is0
$ a'level = 90 - (n'level .lt. 0) * 180
$ m'level = n'level + (n'level .lt. 0) * 2 - 1
$ h = h + a'level ! turn: a
$ newarg = 0 - m'level
$ whereto'level = "tag1"
$ goto recursing ! hilbert: 0 - m side: s
$tag1: h = h + a'level ! turn: a
$ h = h - h/360*360
$ if h .lt. 0 then h = h + 360
$ x = x + s*hx'h
$ y = y + s*hy'h
$ write sys$output "V[''x',''y']"
$ newarg = m'level
$ whereto'level = "tag2"
$ goto recursing ! hilbert: m side: s
$tag2: h = h - a'level ! turn: 0 - a
$ h = h - h/360*360
$ if h .lt. 0 then h = h + 360
$ x = x + s*hx'h
$ y = y + s*hy'h
$ write sys$output "V[''x',''y']"
$ h = h - a'level ! turn: 0 - a
$ newarg = m'level
$ whereto'level = "tag3"
$ goto recursing ! hilbert: m side: s
$tag3: h = h - h/360*360
$ if h .lt. 0 then h = h + 360
$ x = x + s*hx'h
$ y = y + s*hy'h
$ write sys$output "V[''x',''y']"
$ h = h + a'level ! turn: a
$ newarg = 0 - m'level
$ whereto'level = "tag4"
$ goto recursing ! hilbert: 0 - m side: s
$tag4: h = h + a'level ! turn: a
$ goto exit_please
$is0: h = h + 180 ! ^turn: 180
$exit_please: level = level - 1
$ tag = whereto'level
$ goto 'tag
$!
$!
$leave: write sys$output ";''esc'/''esc'[24;1f''esc'[K''esc'[A"
$ exit
|
1431.48 | number = sum of powers of digits | CLT::KOBAL::GILBERT | Ownership Obligates | Mon May 06 1991 19:58 | 18 |
| I was intrigued by numbers that equal the sum of powers of their digits.
So far, I've searched thru the 14th powers. The list of numbers appears
below. Through the 10th power, these were also published in .8.
power numbers
3 1, 153, 370, 371, and 407. (0 is excluded by fiat)
4 1, 1634, 8208, and 9474.
5 1, 4150, 4151, 54748, 92727, 93084, and 194979.
6 1, and 548834.
7 1, 1741725, 4210818, 9800817, 9926315, and 14459929.
8 1, 24678050, 24678051, and 88593477.
9 1, 146511208, 472335975, 534494836, and 912985153.
10 1, and 4679307774.
11 1, 40028394225, 44708635679, 49388550606, 82693916578, and 94204591914.
12 1.
13 1, and 564240140138.
14 1.
|
1431.49 | Asking the obvious question | VMSDEV::HALLYB | The Smart Money was on Goliath | Tue May 07 1991 12:41 | 4 |
| > I was intrigued by numbers that equal the sum of powers of their digits.
> So far, I've searched thru the 14th powers.
How far have you searched within a power? Is there a natural upper limit?
|
1431.50 | | GUESS::DERAMO | Be excellent to each other. | Tue May 07 1991 14:31 | 8 |
| >> Is there a natural upper limit?
If you assume k-th powers, then an n-digit number must be
at least 10^(n-1) but its digits only sum to at most n9^k.
That limits how high n can go for a given k. An earlier
reply showed the bounds for a small k.
Dan
|
1431.51 | | CLT::KOBAL::GILBERT | Ownership Obligates | Tue May 07 1991 16:28 | 30
|