Conference repair::reserve_forces

    
    Hi Dusty...Steve Whynot...USNR....
    
    My cut at the different manner which salutes are rendered is behind the
    person who is saluting and the person that is being saluted.
    
    Guaranteed a salute to a Navy Captain by an enlisted is much different
    than to a Ltjg. But I've seen some gawdawful salutes by E-1's to O5's 
    with nary a remark of the manner to which the salute was honored.
    
    I have been standing quaterdeck watches aboard my Reserve ship. All
    military personnel coming or leaving the ship are required to salute
    the ensign and the Officer of the Deck...Most often the salutes are
    hap-hazardly rendered.
    
    I take extreme pride in rendering a sharp - smart - crisp salute to
    each person crossing the quarterdeck when I am there..whether it be a
    civilian coming aboard...or a Messcook taking out the trash....a Chief
    heading out for liberty or the Commanding Officer departing....
    
    As I walk down the pier at Newport...you can see a hundred different
    types of salutes...and if the salute is rendered sloppy, like a wet
    dish rag...I have yet to see an officer stop the person and give them a
    lesson on the proper rendering of a salute....
    
    Maybe over by the War College and OCS it's different...but then
    again...I'm down where the fleet is..
    
    A salute is meant to recognize a military superior with honor and
    dignity. Unfortunately that isn't always done. I guess it's a matter of
    pride of who is giving and receiving the honor.
    
    Now....I have a quick question....When I render my salutes....I bring
    the fingertip of my middle finger to the edge of my glasses...thumb
    tucked tightly against the index finger...front edge of the palm
    tilted slightly down..wrist straight....My Division officer was saying
    that instead of the glasses...it should be to the corner of my eye...
    We jokingly argued...but I still think I'm right....After all...he's
    only a Lt. (only kiddin of course).
    
    
    
    					sw
    
     
    
    

    re .1
    In the U.S.Army, the fingers touch the brim of the hat. This is
    usually OK, since since saluting 'uncovered' is not done that
    frequently and all Army headgear has a brim. The Navy has to make
    allowances for the 'dixie cup'. Although I don't specifically
    remember it being taught, I think the rule for uncovered saluting
    would be to the forehead where the hat brim should be.
    
    re .0
    I have always admired the way the British military salutes, but then
    adherence to the fine points of courtesy has more emphasis over there.
    Given the penchant for casualness in the 'states', it sometimes appears
    that saluters and salutees are somewhat embaressed by the whole thing.
    I have witnessed a female Captain chewing out a male 2nd Lt for a limp
    wristed salute. I have, also, observed a Brigade CO (BG) and Deputy
    CO (COL) saluting during a pass-in-review, where both of them had their
    wrist at a 45 to their forearm, their fingers paralell to the ground
    and the thumb forming a 'U' with the index finger. They both had
    their heads tilted to the right, so as to meet their fingers.
    
    I think the reason behind sloppy saluting in the U.S.Army, is a
    general lack of emphasis on drill & ceremony. Its taught in basic
    training, but generally ignored in 'regular' units. Units that
    have ceremonial duties keep up on it, but combat arms units spend
    most of their time in camouflage and in the field. Guys assigned
    to the 82nd AB, never put on their 'Greens' during the entire
    assignment.
    
    Bob Mc

    Re .0 and .1:
    
    From almost 20 years ago when I was first taught how to salute,
    I think you're pretty much on target, Steve. And, of course, let's
    not forget the rule that says in addition to the salute an appropriate
    greeting must be offered as well ("Good morning, sir" or whatever).
    
    American military personnel have by and large (with some exceptions)
    since day one some 200 years ago never been known for their
    observance of military decorum. After boot camp/basic training,
    most work hard to return to some semblance of normalcy and so a
    lot of the stuff is forgotten. It takes officers, chiefs, and petty
    officers who care to bring some of that decorum back into practice.
    
    Nonetheless, Americans in uniform typically look to a person's
    performance rather than appearance - if they get the job done and
    can be made to at least look halfway "military", they're usually
    satisfied IMHO.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    USAF women's headgear is brimless/visorless, generally speaking.  We
    were taught to salute pretty much as in .1, to the end of the
    brow/corner of the eye area or corner of the glasses, whichever comes
    first.
    
    Jane

    Folks,
    I had no intention of criticizing anyone so I hope no offence was
    taken. I was more interested in the "why do we do it this way and
    you do it your way?". ie. why do the RN keep their palms downwards
    and they move their arms straight up, straight down. With the RAF
    it's longest way up and shortest way down, palms facing forward.
    
    And as for the British Army, well they have what I can only describe
    as "ceremonial" salutes. I can't remember the names of individual
    regiments, but it was on the TV  program on Army traditions. The
    scene that I remember was where about 6 Sergeants were marched into
    the Officers office to receive their orders - one of them was doubling
    and saluting! They all received their orders in a different manner.
        
    There must be a reason for all this variation....

    Re .5:
    
    No problem.....I don't mind passing along observations of the American
    military from 20-odd years of service. In general, I think it can be 
    safely said that Americans admire British military ceremony and
    discipline (including their saluting practices) - we just don't want
    to have to duplicate them! :-) :-) 
    
    Which reminds of a story.....during WWII it seems an American Army unit was
    instrumental in helping a British Army unit recover their regimental
    drum from the Germans. The British were so impressed, they invited
    the Yanks to a parade in honor of the occasion which was staged
    with typical British military pomp and ceremony. As a result, it
    turned into quite a long affair and when asked afterwards by a British 
    reporter how he liked the parade, an American GI responded, "It
    was OK.....I just hope they never lose that drum again!" :-)
    
    BTW I haven't a clue either as to why the various Brit military 
    organizations salute the way they do so I'm just as interested in
    being enlightened.
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    re .5
    I didn't think you were being critical, Dave. But I did think you were
    including the difference between US & UK styles, as well as differences
    between UK branches, in your question. My reference to our resident
    DI, was a hope that he might have some better info on the history of
    saluting. 
    
    My memory is dim on this subject, but I do remember that 'hand' salutes
    are traced back to the days of armored knights. Raising your hand to
    your eye level and touching your brow, evolved from the courtesy of
    approaching 'friendly' knight's actions. To show that there was no
    threat and identify themselves, they would reach up and raise the visor
    of their helmet. This was usually done with the right hand, since most
    people are right handed and this showed that they had no weapon in that
    hand. This custom evolved to where a 'gentleman' would 'tip' his hat
    to a lady.
    
    As for the differences between Regiments, I suppose you would have to
    check with a Regimental historian to find out where they derived. Most
    likely, is that these 'traditions' came about when everyone started
    wearing similar uniforms, so that members of that Regiment could reco-
    gnize others easily.
    
    re .6
    As to the spoken greeting, the only 'official' one in the US military
    is the 'time-of-day' greeting. However, some units and some types of
    units have made it a tradition to use greetings specific to themselves.
    For instance, airborne qualified troops will slaute with an 'Airborne,
    Sir' and some units use the motto from their battalion crest or the 
    USMC saying 'Semper Fi, Sir'.

    re .2 "all Army headgear has a brim"
    
    FYI - This is not correct.  The enlisted dress green service cap (looks like
    an upside down envelope) does not have a brim, the beret does not have
    a brim and the cold weather cap does not have a brim.  A salute is
    rendered as described in previous notes.
    
    This thought keeps coming up every time I reread this note and I feel
    like I have to post it to see if any one else has ever heard this.  I 
    remember once being told that the reason we keep our palms concealed
    during a salute was because we have not been defeated in war. Any
    country that has been defeated will show an open palm while saluting.
    
    As I said, I don't remember where I heard this, but it was years ago.
    
    Serv  (one of the resident Drill Sergeants - the Army doesn't have
    DI's)  ;-)

    Re Army "DI's":
    
    Nor does the Navy....ours are called Company Commanders (usually
    a First Class PO or a Chief), although we do refer to "basic training"
    as boot camp (Gee, I wonder where the Marines got the name of theirs?)
    and recruits as Boots (same question as above).
    
    Off the subject for sure but I occasionally digress.......
    
    Mark who_had_a_wonderful_time_at_FT_Dix_in_1970_with_B-5-2! :-)
    RMC USNR

    
    For some time Canada followed the British army method of saluting
    in vogue during WWII, and maybe still in use in some places, which
    was longest way up shortest way down and palm out.
    
    The current salute is shortest way up and shortest way down with
    palm down. Fingers touching the brim of the cap, eyebrow, etc depending
    on the headdress.
    
    However a variation of the old salute is still in use by some Highland
    units for very practical reasons.  Our ceremonial uniforms include
    a 'feather bonnet' which looks like a bearskin hat but is made of
    ostrich feathers, much lighter and cooler. Another part of the uniform
    is white gloves.  With the normal salute your hand disappears in
    the feathers and, other than the fact that your arm is up, it is
    difficult to tell that a salute is being given. Result; the salute
    is with the palm out so that it can be seen.
    
    Roger

    re DIs,
    The habits of 20yrs are hard to break 8-). Like Annual Training
    instead of summer camp and I still, occaisionally, slip up with
    *gas*mask. 8-)
    
    re palm out,
    The 'palm out for defeated armies' sounds like the equivalent of
    a military 'urban legend'. Its probably along the lines of the
    description of the 1st Cavalry patch. Meant to provoke rather than
    explain.
    
    Bob Mc

    Sorry about the title of .11, hit the wrong key.
    
    I meant to ask a question about whether British officers do/did once
    say thank you when saluted.

you're lucky if I return the salute without doubling up in embarrasment.

Cetainly don't speak to one of the unwashed masses :-)

/. Ian .\

    Re saluting officers:
    
    One of the ET's (Electronics Technician) in my last USNR unit told
    me about an exercise our unit was on in North Carolina a couple
    of years back. It was a joint service exercise and some of the guys
    in our unit took great delight in annoying certain US Army officers
    attached to the headquarters we were supporting by saluting them only
    once in the morning and not saluting them for the rest of the day. One 
    Major was particuarly perturbed and told my ET friend in no uncertain
    terms his feelings on the subject. My ET friend (a Second Class
    Petty Officer E-5 by the way) very politely and tactfully informed
    the Major that he was in the United States Navy and since our unit
    observed shipboard routine even though we were on dry land he the
    Second Class Petty Officer was required by US Navy custom to salute
    officers only once during the morning and not thereafter.
    
    The Major walked away cursing sailors and the US Navy! :-))
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    Once, while stationed on a HQ base, I received my pay records, which
    were not sealed.  Unable to resist, I was thumbing through the 12 years
    of payroll history as I walked back to my car.  From the corner of my
    eye, I thought I passed a uniformed individual, and suddenly realized
    that his hat brim was full of scrambled eggs!
    
    I wheeled, coming face-to-face with a Major General, standing with his
    arms folded and a disgusted scowel on his face.  I snapped off my best
    salute and greeted him with a sincere apology.  His scowl blended into
    a look of understanding as he returned my salute, saying "Seargant,
    you're lucky I'm not a lieutenant, or I'd chew your ass!"
    
    
    			ETC Mike Wasiejko, USCGR
    			(Formerly USAF)

    Mike,
    
    While you are brushing up on your military courtesy you might also
    look up the correct spelling of "SERGEANT".  8-)
    
    Len_who_read_this_twice_to_make_sure_I_spelled_it_right!
                                                    

    The story that started this:
                      
    Once upon a time, long, long ago....
    
    I heard that a cad in the British Army decided to have a go at shooting
    one of the Royalty. He did it by holding a small handgun in the
    palm of his hand while he saluted (palm down). Then, instead of
    lowering his arm to his side he shot whoever... As a result the
    Army were told to reveal their palms every time they saluted. THe
    RN were believed to above such behaviour and so could continue to
    salute palms down. 
    The RAF, reprobates that they are, were told to follow the Army.
    
    Sounds feasible to me...
 
    

whilst I would agree that the RAF are reprobates, the real reason they use the
army salute is that they started as part of the army (originally the Royal 
Engineers Balloon squadron, then the Royal Flying Corps, latterly the Royal Air 
Force).

/. Ian .\

    Interesting, but as I read the previous (18) replies [with one
    exception] I do not see the idea that a salute is a two way street.  It
    is a greeting rendered by one individual, AND returned by another.  The
    only role seniority plays is who initiates the greeting.
    
    I think it was Ian who mentioned difficulty keeping a straight face
    when returning a salute.  That hit pretty close to home.  As a JO, it
    was very obvious to me when salutes were rendered because only they 
    had to be.  To be honest, I did chuckle (never openly, of course) at 
    times.  Not at the individual, but at the obvious intent behind it.
                   
    Yes, it's interesting how traditions evolve into such painful
    experiences.
    
    	Bill Tarmey 

    
    Haven't seen any discussion of the various tactics enlisted men
    use to get out of having to salute officers (it DOES get to be a
    pain after the 50th or so salute of the day).  Heres some that I've
    *heard* of:
    
    1.  The "turn around like you forgot something tactic":  Upon spotting
    an officer (below O-3) heading toward you, one stops in midstride,
    snapping ones fingers or searching ones pockets, then swings
    around uttering some ephitet like "shit! or Dammit!" and moves 
    rapidly in the direction one came from. 
    
    2.  The "dissapearing soldier" maneuver:  Used in situations where 
    the officer is momentarily out of sight as he comes approaches.  
    One simply jumps inside the nearest building or behind the nearest 
    bush not to emerge until the officer has passed by.
    
    3.  The "I've got both hands filled" gambit:  If carrying an object
    in one hand one simply transfers it to a two handed carry.  It helps 
    to act like it weighs more than it does to further justify the two 
    handed carry.  Note that the carried object must be large enough
    to apparently justify a two handed carry.  For example a dufflebag
    would work, but a SQT manual would not. 
    
    4.  The instant formation trick:  In a group of not less than three
    upon sighting an officer they immediately form up thereby necessitating
    only the senior man having to render a salute.  Note that at least
    one of the group must be E-4 or above.
    
    Note that all these tactics are quite dangerous to employ against
    field grade officers or while in the immediate vicinity of a 1SGT 
    or CSM who had probably employed the same tactics in their younger
    days and know all the tricks.
    
    
    Dave                        

    RE:  -1
    
    Dave,
    
         Don't understand why you described these tactics as being used by
    enlisted to get out of saluting officers.  Is there a sense that
    enlisted are the only ones who do not like to salute?
    
         I must migrate back to the return of salute.  An officer (0-umpty
    ump, doesn't make any difference) is walking between hangars at your
    local NAS.  Enroute, (s)he encounters fourteen people of lower
    seniority, in fourteen different encounters.  Each of these individual
    salutes once, while the officer does fourteen times.  I have always
    been of the belief that this was the rationale behind O-Club liquid
    lunches.  Must keep the shoulder and arm in shape, and the motion is
    similar.
    
         Just to be fair, I've used each of your tactics to avoid saluting
    more senior officers.  By the way, I've also used then to avoid having
    to return the salute of an enlisted person.
    
         As someone once said, "there are a million stories in the naked
    city..."  By the way, there are at least two sides to each one.
    
    		Bill Tarmey
    
    PS - Tying ones shoes also works.
         Policing the area too, and if might even get a few 'brownie' points

    
    
    Here's another story. (or atleast one version)
    
    
         While I, a 03 type,  unloaded my car I noticed one of my
    soldiers standing in the door way of our armory. Of course
    while he was "under cover", he wouldn't have to salute me. However
    as soon as he noticed my hands were full of gear, he put his soft cap
    on and stepped outside to salute me. Being the officer and gentleman
    that I am, I put down the gear in my right hand, saluted the individual
    with  the comment "alright ******* now you can carry that gear in".
    He laughed and said he deserved that. :^)
     
         
    Randy Schwartz

    We interrupt our discussion for this brief message...
    
    
    In days of olde, when knights were bolde, and body armour included a
    helmet with full face shield, a knight atop his steed, when
    encountering another so clad and mounted, would use his right hand to
    raise his face shield in greeting. Because the right hand was used to
    wield the knight's weapon, this jesture demonstrated he was not armed,
    as well as exposing a vital body part (his face) as a show of trust. 
    
    The practice found its way into the military and in its many variations
    is recognized as the standard, formal greeting. Note also, the
    similarity to "tipping one's hat".
    
    
    
    ... and now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

    Must be an echo in here. 8-)
    
    Since we've digressed to telling stories...
    
    In Grafenwoehr, I had to visit a platoon barracks during the day. As I
    was returning to the Orderly room, I encountered a 2LT from the host
    unit. He had just left the Mess hall and was carrying a cup of coffee,
    with donut balanced, in each hand. I noticed the look of terror in his
    eyes as he realized that our paths would cross. I hesitated, broke into
    a broad grin and said "Don't worry LT, I won't salute you." He
    continued on, thanking me profusely. 
    
    Bob Mc

Of course we have an easier solution - we take our hat off when carrying food
(you don't salute when bareheaded).

:-)

/. Ian .\

    re .21  Bill
    
    Actually I've ALSO seen the complete opposite happen too.
    
    I've seen a group of enlisted men, say 10 or so, deliberatly spread
    out in a column 10-15m apart as an officer approaches the other
    way so as to make him salute each and every one of them in 
    succession.   Again not a good idea to do to field grade officers
    or in the presence of 1st shirts and Sergeant Majors, mainly because
    LTs and junior captains don't command much respect although the
    regs demand it be rendered to them, but Field grade officers and
    senior NCOs are powerful figures to a private or spec-4.
    
    But no, I don't think enlisteds are the only ones who don't like
    to salute (I really like the way the swabbies handle this, once
    in the morning and that's it), it's all just a game that is played 
    with varying degrees of seriousness depending on current morale 
    levels.
    
    I guess you could see it as a way, albiet a small one, of bucking
    the system.  As you may have noticed many if not all of these tactics
    require more effort than if they just saluted the guy in the first
    place.  A harmless game to poke fun at the all-powerful system.   
    
                                                            
    Dave

    One thing I was glad for when I transferred to the US Navy Reserve
    was that I no longer had to salute officers when I reported to them
    indoors (as is US Army custom - we spent a bunch of time in Basic having
    it pounded it into our heads and I had to go unlearn it for the
    Navy...oh well) because, as Col. Philpott pointed out, to the
    best of my knowledge one does not salute in the USN when one is uncovered,
    as in the British Army.
    
    One other item with regard to field grade officers, it was a standing
    joke when I was in the Regular Army (early 70's) that one of the
    most dangerous people in the US Army was a newly minted Major because
    O-4 and on up (field grade) could bring court martial charges while
    O-3 and below (company grade) could only nail you with an Article
    15! :-)
    
    Ah, the good old days.....
    
    Mark
    RMC USNR

    
    
    Another problem I should have brought up, saluting in the field.
    
    My battalion SOP states that you will NOT salute "our" officers
    in the field. (Who cares if the enemy sniper shoots the evaluator ;->)
    
    So pity our poor troops, first we get them in the habit of saluting
    in garrison, then we beat them out of the habit in the field.
    
    Randy Schwartz
    

    re: .20
    
    
    The coffee and donut tactic.
    
    being in a police unit this tactic works quit well and every one
    
    understands that to  Cops, coffee and donuts are part of the uniform:-)
    
    
    
    jerry
    SP.
    

    I have seen American personnel saluting while still seated behind
    a desk while not wearing any form of headgear. In the British Army
    you find a lot of Officers will thank you for a salute whereas 
    "ok bud" doesn't seem to go down too well. I personally can't see
    anything embarrasing in a salute.
    
    In my last unit we had a character who invented the
    
                "LONG RANGE SALUTE"
    
    This entailed, finding an Officer, usually on the other side of the
    parade square and shouting as loud as possible "good morning sir!"
    then dart behind a wall or tree for a few seconds while the Officer
    tries to find WHO he is saluting and then emerging saluting in
    the correct manner. It worked every time.
    A salute is only given when stood still or marching not at the
    double, or on a bike or in a car or through a window, ALL OF
    WHICH I HAVE SEEN!!
    
    Another interesting point, the Dutch still have conscription
    they are allowed to have beards, long hair and don't have to salute!
    Although the majority of conscripts today do have short hair and
    shave. I believe most do salute.
    
    The Germans salute anything that moves. as a Lance-Corporal I was
    saluted by Germans, at the time I was a bit stunned but was later
    informed that it is done out of respect.
    
    I don't want to critisise any Army but I do find the American
    salute a complete waste of time. (is it still called a 
    salute? or a "high five!"
    
    regards 
    
    Paul