Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I hope the person responsible is convicted of murder.

    
    
                 Like LOVE, we can't define *A REAL MAN*.
    

.4>	Manslaughter.
    
    I think I could find that this is within the def. of 2nd degree murder.
    
    IMO, of course.
    
    ed

     It's manslaughter. He did not intend to kill the child. His
    recklessness directly led to the child's death.
    
     The Doctah

    Well, ok.  But I'd rather give him the chair.
    
    ed

    From a legal point of view, they might be able to make murder
    stick.  It would depend on whether the man knew large quantities
    of alcohol could be toxic, and that children had lower tolerances
    than adults.  
    
    --bonnie

I think it unlikely that the man knew what would happen - and he may be like
many men who don't think at all about the effects of alcohol.  However, the
eventual punishment he may or may not receive was not the point of my
note.

What I'd like to do is to use this as a spark for a discussion on the pressures
our society places on males to continually respond to challenges to their
maleness.  Men are expected to follow a very narrow path of behavior, and those
who deviate are insulted, attacked and even killed.  We are expected to be
physically strong, and to use that strength to overcome any obstacle.  We
are not allowed emotions.  We are not allowed to follow certain paths in
life that are designated "unmanly".  We are told repeatedly that we are
incapable of and therefore should not be allowed to nurture children.

I'd be interested in stories from men who have had unpleasant experiences
at having their maleness challenged.  I ask for sensitivity to others, since
it is sometimes difficult to even admit such challenges occurred.

I'll start with a minor example, though it infuriated me at the time.  Several
years ago I was staying at a motel with my wife and infant son.  While I was
changing my son's diaper, the cover to a wall air conditioner fell off and
hit me in the arm, and narrowly missing Tommy.  When I complained to the
manager, he asked to see my arm, and said "Aw, a big man like you hurt
by that?"  I was so angry I was speechless.  But we did leave the motel
immediately.

All during my childhood, I was constantly assaulted by other boys because,
though I was tall, I was also not strong physically and could not keep up in
athletic activities.  Once while I was walking home from school, a boy I
didn't even know threw a rock at me and hit me on the head, knocking me out.
When I came to, other boys were holding the one who threw the rock, telling
me I had to hit him back.  I just shook my head and walked home.

				Steve

    Re  .9
    
    Hmmm.  I have so much to say about this topic, I do not know where to
    begin.  Let me start by saying that, up until recent years at least,
    most men believed the essence of a "real man" was found in mastering the 
    art of transforming into what society and/or what most women expected 
    men to be -- that or mastering, in revolt, the art of being the exact 
    OPPOSITE of what society and/or women expected men to be.  For example, 
    many men tried to conform to the sensitive Alan Alda-type merely because 
    it was the "in" thing.   Then if the wind changed, and the macho, 
    strong-silent Clint Eastwood type got resurrected, then men would 
    follow suit -- in order to be acceptable in the eyes of, and to please 
    society, women, other men, and of anything else OUTSIDE themselves.
    
    This syndrome, I think, led to men, including myself, to ask themselves 
    unhealthy questions like, "How shall I be now to please X and Y?"  It 
    also made it rather impossible for men to look inward at themselves, to 
    find out who and what they really are as unique individuals and to live 
    the truth of their unique beings.  In other words, I think men have had
    much trouble getting to know their real selves and being their real selves.
    
    The pressure to conform to expectations can get pretty unbearable,
    especially for adolescents and young men who do not have decent older 
    male role models in their lives.  Most fathers (at least in my father's
    generation) were not there for their sons, IMO.  Because they fed into
    the pressure of the "real father" expectations, they believed that
    emotional detachment from their sons -- and in many cases abuse -- 
    was the "manly" way of being.   I am 35 years old, but because my
    father taught me that crying was wrong for men, I forgot how to cry
    (and didn't) for most of my adult life!  Now when I need it, crying
    comes real easy, thanks to the insights and examples set by other
    courageous men in our culture -- men like Robert Bly, who has worked
    with men all over America (and appeared with Bill Moyers on TV
    recently) showing men by example how to get in touch with, and become,
    their true selves.
    
    I've got other personal stories of being pressured by societal
    expectations, but will shut up for now.  It's the manly thing to do,
    right?
    
    Cheers,
    Paul
     

    It appears so far that most of the notes here so far have
    focused on the terrible story that Steve brought up and not
    on the larger question. Perhaps it would be useful to separate
    the two topics so that each one could be discussed separately.
    (For the record I found story of making a 5 year old dring bourbon
    so disgusting and terrible that I couldn't even begin to deal with
    it, in fact, on looking back I believe I 'read' the child's age as
    fifteen because I found it so hard to believe.)
    
    Bonnie

    
    Are you saying that Clint Eastwood really isn't acting as his
    "true self"?
    
    Clint might be a really sensitive guy for all you know...
    

    A few stories...
    
    Since I live in England, some of this may not make sense, but... in the
    South of England, nobody bats an eyelid if a man drinks anything but
    beer. I personally never liked the taste of beer, found wine more to my
    liking. On a visit to some relatives in Norfolk (north of the Watford
    gap), I cheerfully asked for an orange juice. The odd stare I got and
    the nudge in the elbow from my father changed my mind, so I got a half
    pint of bitter instead.
    
    At school, I was never much for athletics, more into the studying. A
    friend of mine decided to play a joke on me, put some glue on his hand,
    shook hands with me. Whilst I was standing there working out how to
    wipe it off, I noticed another friend laughing his head off. So, I
    rubbed my hands in his face. The look of horror was a picture. My
    friend decided he had to 'overpower' me - I remember him saying "It's
    not personal". All he did was wrestle me to the ground. I
    half-heartedly tried to resist - but as usual gave up since I could
    never see the point of it all...
    
    Again, at school, several years later, when I was in the 5th form (at
    15 - I'm not sure how this translates into American schooling), I was
    out in the playground, wandering around between lessons. I wasn't
    really part of any in crowd - more of a loner. In later years, I could
    spend my time inside, in the 6th form common room, but not in the 5th
    year. So, there I was, wandering around, deep in thought as usual...
    some first years decided to play tag, and I was it. I put up with it
    for a while, these kids running around me - to then pop up and tap me.
    At first I ignored them... then one day, I got fed up with it, collared
    the nearest one who happened to get in the way... said I was really
    sore, thumped him in the stomach. He ran away... straight into a
    teacher who gave him a dressing down, and then came out to tell me I'd
    done the right thing, since he'd been watching me for quite a while. I
    was surprised, since the guy I hit was four years younger, and several
    feet shorter... seemed a bit out of balance... I guess they saw me as
    an easy target, since (i) one of them was the younger brother of a
    friend in my year and knew how shy I was of fights, (ii) I didn't
    retaliate at first. After that incident, I found they treated me with
    more respect... as in look out he bites!
    
    Pete.

    .12
    
    Eastwood probably is ... and, no, I'm not saying he isn't acting 
    as his true self or anything else about movie acting.  My point was
    that too often men have been pressured to conform to the "in" societal
    expectations of being a man -- whether that's the macho OR the
    sensitive -- rather than daring and feeling comfortable enough to be
    their true selves.  The point is not to point fingers at men and say, 
    "Aha!  You're not in touch with your feelings! You're not a sensitive 
    man!"  This only feeds into guilt and fear and usually serves to stifle 
    a man's freedom in finding/being who/what he truly is.  In many ways, 
    this type of pressure is just as damaging and offensive as the 
    pressure to be the macho, fearless, painless, ever-strong man.  
    In genreal, men ought not be pressured into being any "type" or
    fitting into any role.      
    
    Paul
       

I think the real problem is with the word "real."  

I also think that any definition of "men" (and "women") can get pretty 
impossible to sort out if you spend a significant amount of time with 
transvestites and transexuals.  One of the most jarring experiences in 
my life was befriending a person who changed her gender from male to 
female.  The jarring thing was this: before the change, he definitely 
looked like and was a "man"; after the change, he definitely looked 
like and was a "woman"; and, she didn't look all that different from
the way she looked when she was a man.  The jarring thing to me is the
notion that perhaps fewer things separate men and women than we are
taught to believe. 

I can only conclude that a man is: "a human being who calls himself a 
man."  If you get any more specific than that, I can find an 
exception.


							--Gerry

    Good.  I agree.
    
    Ray

           From a handout of:

                Real Men
                P.O. Box 1769
                Brookline, MA  02146


                             [ What is a real man? ]

           A real man is a man who is secure enough to not feel
           threatened by women's equality.

           He is a man who understands that men as well as women need
           to grow and change and adjust to more egalitarian roles.

           He is a man who has the courage to rethink the traditional
           male role and seek and pioneer a new sensibility about what
           it means to be a man.

           He knows that this entails combining the best
           characteristics of what it used to mean to be a real man
           with a new and more complex vision of masculine identity.

           He knows that this undertaking will be uncomfortable and
           often awkward, but as a real man in the 1990's he is ready
           to accept the challenge.

    
    
      A real man doesn't accept others terms of what a real man is.
    
                     He isn't defined here in notes.
    
    

A real man isen't bothered when his child is killed because it is "her body and
her right".

I think compassion and self respect are two very important componets.

-j

Defination 1:
    
        A 'Real Man' does not let anyone else define who they are. You are
    what you are. If you have the intellengence and will power to change
    yourself in what you perceive to be a positive direction, then you
    have courage and you might consider yourself a 'Real Man'

Defination 2: (the real defination)
    
        'Real Men "double-clutch"'

    
    Steve    
        

    I guess I'll make myself known...
    
    >       A real man is a man who is secure enough to not feel
    >       threatened by women's equality.
    
    I read this to mean "a Real Man allows himself to be defined by women".
    
    Equality?
    
    Apples and oranges are equal, right?
    
    Is one "better" than the other?
    
    A man is a man, and let us not get pussy whipped into thinking we're
    "equal" (meaning "the same as") to women.
    
    And why would a woman want to be equal (the same as) to a man?
    
    Something that's been bugging me.
    
    Tom

    
   > And why would a woman want to be equal (the same as) to a man?
    
    Tom, I don't know of any women who want that.
    
    I believe that the term "equal" is usually used to mean "of the
    same value as" in this scenario.
    
    Somewhere in =wn= there has been a lengthy string about the definition
    of "equal".....
    
    'gail
    
    

>    >       A real man is a man who is secure enough to not feel
>    >       threatened by women's equality.
    
>    I read this to mean "a Real Man allows himself to be defined by women".
    
     Not to pick on you, Tom, but it sounds like you are already on the 
    defensive.
    
>    A man is a man, and let us not get pussy whipped into thinking we're
>    "equal" (meaning "the same as") to women.
    
     Try "equivalent" (meaning neither is inherently better or worse than
    the other). We aren't women. We're men. Big freakin' deal. You aren't
    any better or worse because of it, just a different flavor.
    
     The Doctah

    RE: .28 Doctah

    > Try "equivalent" (meaning neither is inherently better or worse than
    >the other). We aren't women. We're men. Big freakin' deal. You aren't
    >any better or worse because of it, just a different flavor.

    I think we're in violent agreement.

    Someone else used the term "equality" and the whole concept is
    ludicrous.
    
    Tom

    
    Real Men don't need to get truth from liberal activists...
    
    > just a different flavor
    
    I would hope so...
    

    I've struggled with the 'real man' syndrome for most of my life.  My
    father, being a world champion Judoka with black belts in Judo, Karate
    and Aikido plus master status in Kendo, thought he had fathered a
    bookworm wimp when I was young.  The situation was aggravated by the
    fact that I was the only male in the family who didn't have a black
    belt.  My best effort at self defense consisted of threatening to have
    my dad slice up my adversary with his Ninja swords. 

    When the family definition of manhood consists of being able to render
    an opponent unable to remember his name or locate segments of their
    body, it becomes difficult to get support for the things you like to
    do; like violin, piano, making crystal radios, swimming. 

    My father took me to see a 'friend' of his when I was about 11 who
    asked me strange questions about contact sports and whether I like boys
    better than girls.  It wasn't until I was 20 that I found out that his
    'friend' was a psychologist.  My father had become so disoriented with
    a son who preferred reading to aggressive sports that he thought I was
    turning out to be, in his words, "a fairy".  At 20 I came to peace with
    my father's expectation of a real man only to have to face it with my
    classmates in school. 

    The Engineers at the University of Waterloo had a chant; 

		We are, we are, we are
		We are the Engineers!
		We can, we can, we can
		Demolish forty beers!

    For the most part, they were rowdy, listened to rock, and were great
    fans of professional sports.  I have abstained 100% from alcohol since
    I was 16, prefer Bach to rock and I couldn't name three professional
    athletes if my life depended on it.  Talk about a bad fit. 

    The one incident which stands out in my mind occurred in first year
    when the 'frosh' were expected to party and get stoned with the
    upperclassmen.  Someone noticed that I wasn't drinking and the Eng Club
    president ordered that I drink 12 beers.  When I refused and tried to
    leave I was held down on my back and forced to consume most of the
    contents of a bottle of Canadian Club.  I thought about threatening to
    get my dad after them with his Ninja swords but figured it wouldn't
    help. 

    My revenge came in the parking lot where I filled the gas tank of the
    club president's new Firebird with the contents of my stomach. I saw
    him on the bus alot that term. 

    Real men don't get mad, they get even. 

    Kris 
    

    What the hell is all this about.
    
    I listen to people I respect. Other than that if others don't like
    the way I am that's too bad. I dont' rape women, abuse anyone
    physically, get stoned, defy the laws. etc. 
    I don't HAVE to prove anything to anyone. I like me as I am. 
                                              
    I really don't care if that makes me a "real" man or not. 
    
    Why do you want to take a test to prove you are real men, What's
    a real woman?
    
    Dave

    .31  Hey Kris...
    
    Don't worry about someone else's efforts to transform you into a real man. 
    Sports wasn't my bag in high school, either;  I was more interested in
    music and journalism.  I too was tormented by my father and various
    jock-types, who were so "confident" in their notion of manhood, they
    couldn't keep it to themselves.
    
    Next time you wonder about the nature of a "real man," just do what I
    do:  Watch a hockey game or go to a bar where "real men" drink themselves 
    sick.  Then study these real men slobbering over each other with overt hugs 
    and kisses and all sorts of carressing behavior -- men who otherwise would
    be inclined to call you a "fairy" outisde their safe male bastions.  Then 
    think to yourself:  "Ah, no WONDER so many 'real men' are obsessed with 
    heavy drinking and sports!  They need to be!  Being rowdy and rough is 
    our society's only accepted way through which men can be gentle 
    and affectionate!"  
    
    Real men have the courage to be their true selves anywhere, anytime.  
    They do need not be dependent on "safe" environments, sanctioned by 
    our culture.
    
    Paul   

RE: Pressure to play sports

It doesn't work.


			--GerTheBasketballFairy

    .35
    
    Damn right.  If all this is an illusion, Mikie, then it sure is one
    hell of a REALISTIC illusion.  This, to a large extent, has been my 
    experience of men.  I presume yours differs.
    
    Paul
    

>This, to a large extent, has been my experience of men. 
    
     I don't know where you're finding them, but they aren't truly
    representative of us.
    
     The Doctah

    
    	This is one classic I'll never forget the rest of my life. :^)
    
    	First I've got to set the background just a tad. For those
    	that don't know me (most I assume), I am 5' 11" tall and
    	I weigh a whole grand total of 113 pounds soaking wet.
    
    	Okay, so I'm sitting at this party with a friend of mine
    	and a few other guys. This one buddy of another friend is
    	sitting with bragging about all his weightlifting matches
    	he's won and his Karate matches. He turns to me with this
    	smirk on his face, looks for a minute then his expression
    	goes blank and he says "I've studied Karate for xx (forgot
    	the number) years, and I'm bad". After his sttement he had
    	that same grin on his face as a challenge to me, well, how
    	could I resit. I simply said "Well, I've been shoot Smith
    	& Wesson for 30 years, and I'm damn GOOD!" and just walked
    	away. My friend said just sat there about ten minutes with
    	a confussed expression on his face. The rest of the party
    	went well, didn't hear too much from mr. macho.  ;^}
    
    	G_B

    -1
    
    >>>>    	he's won and his Karate matches. He turns to me with this
    	smirk on his face, looks for a minute then his expression
    	goes blank and he says "I've studied Karate for xx (forgot
    	the number) years, and I'm bad". After his sttement he had
    
    I was just thinking, you could have told him, "Then why don't you
    practice harder?"
    
    But your comment was better!
    
    -dwight

    
    	Yeah, especially since I WAS carring and HE KNEW it!!!!
    
    	;^]
    
    	G_B

    Real men fry bacon in the nude.
    
    -j

    Yep.  That's a real man.

    re: .43 -j
    
    So, when are you cooking breakfast :*)
    
    Christine

    re.46
    Christine,
    I'm availible every third day I use the other two to allow the burns
    to heal... 8^)
    
    -jerry
    

    How about spilling hot coffie in the lap while in the nude? Yeee-oooww!

>    How about spilling hot coffie in the lap while in the nude? Yeee-oooww!
    
    If you yelled, you weren't a Real Man.
    
    The properly manly reaction is: "Anyone have some iced tea?  I could
    use a chaser."
    
    Now I understand why you call it "the Cruel Spa",
    Ray

    One could say that after the coffie gave you that third degree burn
    that you had once owned a real hot rod....:) Caaare full! Steve is
    gonna say cut that out.

Now George, why would I suggest taking scissors to your hot rod?

			Steve

    Guess you gotta like pain. Its like dropping a 45 pound plate on you
    foot, dropping a hot cup of coffie in you lap, falling down in a squat.
    A madmans dream! :)

    
    you wouldn't fall down, George.  That tail of yours would keep you
    steady!
    
    ;)
    
    -Jody
    

    Bha-Haa! Thats a secret that is in the Flex files! Nobody know that
    I have a lizard tail from doing that over the counter Joe Weider stuff
    here! :->
    
    
    

    
    oops!  maybe I let the cat out of the bag then....
    
    real men don't *heat* their home gyms.
    
    -Jody
    

    .....nor do they have showers at their gyms too.:)
    
    I guess thats why we named the place the "Cruel Spa".:)
    Where its crueler inside the gym than outside during a raging
    snow storm!! That was the name it was blessed/cursed with by a couple
    of the members. 

    re .53
    
    I dropped a 400 lb I-beam on my hand last Sat.  Does that count.
    
    I did say "ouch" though (among other things) 8^().;
    fred();

    
    
    > i did say ouch
    
    
     Wussy :-)
    
    
    David

    Perhaps Fred forgot to be PC about it.:)

    
    
    > PC about it.:)
    
    
    Ahem! You mean of course genetically correct :-)
    
    
     David

    .61
    Nope! Cause if it was genetically correct he would have dropped it
    on his genitals.:) 

    Instead Fred dropped it on his foot. So because he is a person and
    because his foot is connected to him, a mammal, its Politically Correct.

    God for bid if he was a walder beast or a bison.:)

    re .62
    
    Except that I dropped it on my hand instead of my foot ;^).
    Didn't break anything.  To have been Politically Correct I should
    have broken at least 2 small bones.
    
    fred();

    Re: .63
    
    But anatomically a hand is merely a specialized foot.  You dropped it
    on your forefoot.  :-)
    
    -dick

    Dick,
    
    That is Politically correct if Fred chows down with his pets, like the
    house cat and family hound.:) But we know that Fred doesn't do that!
    Or do we???:)

    
    re  .65
    
    Naw. Kain't do that.
    Don't have a cat.  Wife is allergic to 'em.  The dog has been around
    longer than I have and if anything happens to her, I'll be the first
    one suspected. 8^).
    
    fred();