Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Seems to me like you've already done what you can.  She's asked for
    your opinion, and you've given it.  She's chosen not to listen.  I know
    it's hard to see someone you care about "make a mistake"...what you
    think is a mistake.  Evidently she doesn't think as you do...not yet 
    anyway, and there's no guarentee that she will.  
    
    IMHO ofcourse...
    

    re.0
    Punching holes in walls...
    
    At least he has the common sense to direct his violence at inanimate
    objects instead of her. What he needs is a punching bag or a cord of
    unsplit wood and an axe. I'm just guessing but he may have a lot of
    rage inside from his wife leaving him.
    One approach might be to tell her that you're afraid that his violent
    temper might someday be directed at her and suggest to her that he
    should seek counciling on how to control his temper.
    The fact his business is slow right seems a shallow reason for her to
    back out next week it might be booming.
    The fear that she will be an old maid unless she marries this guy is
    *real* to her and something I doubt anyone will be able to convince
    her otherwise. I have a female friend that married for just this reason
    and now even thought she admits her husband treats her great she wants
    out and her husband is heartbroken and lost on how to keep her.
    
    
    Good luck it is tough being a friend at times, -j
    

    re: .0 (Ann Nonimous)
    
          1.  She is an adult and needs to be responsible for herself
             I.e., it isn't your problem and it doesn't need to impact
             you unless you allow it to.
          2.  You can express how you feel to her.  Tell her, "I wish to
             be your friend, and as your friend this is how I
             feel...however, since you ask for suggestions and never seem
             to follow them, it hurts me, and to avoid being hurt, I would
             prefer that you not dump your problems on me."
          3.  The bottom line is that self-respect is more important than
             having a friend.  If you are maintaining your self-respect,
             being honest with your emotions and appropriately expressing
             yourself, that's all you can do.
          4.  Yes, the man has some problems...most people are emotional
             walking time bombs of one type or another, anyway.  If it 
             bothers you, keep your distance.  If asked for advice, give
             it as I stated in 2. above.
    
    Frederick
    
    
        

    Sometimes the best thing a real friend can do is just listen.
    
    You've provided advice before, she's agreed with it, but didn't
    seem to heed it.  She's afraid of becoming an "old maid" and her 
    fiance exhibits violent behavior at times.  Yes, sounds like he's got
    some issues to deal with, yet she does too.  It would seem as if the
    marriage is primarily meant to provide an Rx to an "old maid" stigma.  
    Imo, this is a sign of deep rooted insecurity.  Hopefully with the right
    support and readiness on your friend's part, she'll grow through this
    experience and come out the other side healthier than before.
    
    If her friendship is important to you, I suggest supporting her as best
    you can in her marriage plans, seeing it as part of her growth process
    and cultivating as much faith as possible in her and her process, even
    if the marriage seems doomed from the beginning.  
    
    You just never know the good that may be served for her and her fiance
    through this experience in the long run.  
    
    --Kb                    

Does this note hit close to home with me.  Makes me wonder if we have
the same friend.  The details of the story may differ slightly, but the
bottomline is the same...you are concerned about the well being of a 
person who is very dear to you.  You fear that she may be making a very
big mistake.  It completely baffles you.  Well, I have a very close friend 
who WAS engaged to a guy that I felt the same way about.  She dated him for
5 years....never heard of any good things about him, but always heard about 
the bad.  She had attempted to live with him twice, both times she moved out. 
The day she told me she was engaged to him I thought I would die.  (I too was
suppose to be in the wedding....I felt like I hypocrite...I just kept telling
myself I am doing this for her....she is my friend).  I couldn't understand
why she continually stayed in a relationship that was so 'unhealthy'.  
He wasn't a physical abuser, but was a real mental abuser.  

I really starting disliking this guy.  He treated her just awful....but yet 
she always went back for more.  It got to the point that I didn't even like 
hearing anything about him or them anymore.  I had always given her feedback 
that she agreed with, but yet on the other hand, she stayed with him too.  

Today I find that I am much happier...the less I hear, the better off I am.
I cannot control my friend.  I can be concerned and let her know it but that
is all.  She will do as she chooses to do...

So here it is today....and yes, the engagement is still off, but again, she
is seeing him.  

I think the best advice you can give to your friend is to sugguest that they
live together first (assuming that they don't).

Good luck...

Paula
    

    Hi....
    I say your friend is MUCH better off WITHOUT him....a man with a temper
    that breaks things could end up becoming physically violent with
    her...and will make her a statistic of battered woman.
    
    Bail out while the going is good. She is far from an ol' maid, tell her
    she can do much much better.
    
    
    Lynne Sigel

    Thanks for all of you who have replied to my note thus far.
    
    I guess I never had any intention of not being a friend or backing out 
    of her wedding - frustrated is a more accurate description.  I know
    myself how tough the first year can be on a couple and considering
    they're already having problems I'm wondering what the first year will
    bring... but....as stated in previous reply's, it's not my problem.  
    
    I really do care for both of them - my friends fiance is a really nice
    person when he's not behaving like a maniac - he's fun and likable,
    but.. has that short fuse - especially when he drinks.  
    
    My husband and I have decided that if this happens again when we're
    around we'll just leave - we're not going to stay around and  #1. Try
    and solve their problems for them - because we can't and #2. We're not
    going to take the abuse we've had to endure from them because they're
    so mad they don't even know what they're doing.  
    
    Re .5:  No, we don't have the same friend - but if there is another
    person like my friend you know "exactly" how I feel.  Almost want to
    take her and shake her sometimes huh?  Well it's kind of like
    Co-dependent No More - I'm not going to let her keep me on the phone
    for the 2 hour crying sessions anymore - she's made her decision and
    she's going to have to be a big, grown up girl now and take some
    responsibility for her decisions which she hasn't done in the past.  
    
    Thanks again.
    

Well, if they decide to go ahead with the wedding, see 
if you can encourage her to sign up for Model Mugging 
beforehand.

This is not a joke.

    
    What's Model Mugging?
    
    Sam
    

I moved the discussion of Model Mugging to a separate topic, 1142.

			Steve

    1) Would she listen to a priest or counsellor?
    
    2) How about him going to alcoholic's anonymous?  It not only helps you
       stop drinking, but helps you stop destructive behavior and replace
      it with something healthier, as well.  Plus, gives you a non-drinking
      mentor and the support of the group.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    Paula  

    He means "bad news"... she might stop being a "spinster" but will
    become a battered or abused woman... is that a better title? the next
    title would be to join the divorced ranks, hurt a while and after a
    while, start all over again, hoping she gets luckier the second time
    around...  She might see this as "experience" and "maturity" but it
    isn't... plain common sense will make her avoid this situation and the
    consequent hurt, but if she still wants to go ahead, it is her choice,
    not yours or ours but her very own.  As a friend I would point the
    dangers, though... 

    
    
    
                  If all you bridesmaids see it the same way, then you owe
    	it to your friend to talk her out of it.
    
     ,                                      there is always tomorrow
    

    How will you feel when the officiating person asks the congregation to
    "speak now or forever hold your peace"?
    
    Leslie

    Although the line in the privious reply doesn't always get used in a 
    marriage ceremony.
    
    I tend to agree with the thought behind it.  People who attend and/or 
    participate in a weding do so as a symbol of there approval (IMHO).  To 
    go and be the brides maid would mean you have no objections to the
    wedding.  But your voiced concerns here show otherwise.  I would
    strongly suggest to them to seek cousneling together to find out about
    the problem.  So far he has directed his anger at inanimate objects...
    but a class I took once because of my own temper showed me that it's
    very easy for a person to "de-humanize" a person and think of them as 
    an "object" when they become angry.  Things as simple as thinking of 
    her as a "bit*h", or refering to her in other terms of insult tend to
    make the violence okay, the person is no longer a loved one, but
    instead they become a "thing" and it's okay to lash out and strike
    them.
    
    Skip

    Kind of a late reply, and I haven't read the other opinions, but if you
    feel as strongly as I think that this is all wrong, then back out.
    Seems simple........but obviously isn't. But don't help her get married
    to someone who apparently is completely out of whack. If you bail out
    and she gets the message, fine. If she doesn't get it, at least you
    will have had no part of it.
    
    ....Bob

    re: .15 -
    
    I'll second that.
    
    Barb

This is a very familiar story. I am a volunteer on a Domestic Violence Hotline.
First, abusive behavior is learned behavior. Alcohol sometimes accelerates
the abuse but it doesn't cause the abuse. Of abusive relationships that
improve the percentage is about 1%. This is only in cases where the
abuser gets professional help. 

What can you do. Keep telling your friend you are concerned. Encourage her
to attend Battered Women Support Groups. You'll find them in the phone
book. She may not realize that she already fits into this category but
she does. Punching a hole in a wall says, "you may be next" that's what
we call emotional battering.

If I can be of any further help, you can write me directly at BOSDCC::FLECK
or Linda Fleck @ENO.

Regards, 
Linda 

    Linda,
    
    Ummm not all abusive relationships are "learned behavior" a very very
    small percentage is casued by medical problems.... the only reason I 
    am pointing this out is that I belonged to that small percentage.
    
    I had a brain tumour which for all appearances looked like a common
    case of learned abusive behavior.... I'd gone to therapy for it 
    but it wasn't until a doctor sat down with me and started asking 
    questions beyond the typical ones for such behavior (i.e. what
    establishing the type of family I'd come from).  After a C.A.T. scan
    It was found that I had a tumor roughly the size of a pea which was 
    causing a "short circuit" and responsible for the behavior... since 
    having the tumor removed over a year ago now, I've not had any problems 
    with abusive/violent behavior.
    
    SKip

Skip,

Thank you for that information. You must feel much better having found
out the reason for your behavior and having recovered. Congratulations!

I have not come across this information previously. I would like to ask,
if it is not too personal. Was this behavior exhibited as classic domestic
abuse? I realize people have medical reasons why they may exhibit violent
behavior, however, I didn't realize it mimicked what we term "spouse abuse."

Again, thanks for the info.

Regards,

Linda 

    To anyone seeing me in one of these "tantrums" it appeared that way.
    
    What would happen is that various forms of extreme stress caused a 
    "short circuit" to accure and I would lose the "logic centers" of my 
    brain... run on complete emotional reaction.... without the use of 
    that area of my brain (the portion that would rationalize reasons for
    me NOT to get angered over a situation) I couldn't "calm down" or tell 
    myself that I was over reacting to the situation.  Other things could 
    set it off I had a reputation for a BAD temper.  It would "discharge"
    after a while and allow me to regain control but not until after I'd 
    exploded in an angry/violent response to a situation.
    
    Now I must warn you that it is very VERY rare that a physical medical 
    reason is responsible for such behavior I was told that my situation 
    and problem being physical and treatable is (in relation to violent/
    abusive behavior) one out of approximatly 500,000 people. 
    
    Still, abusive behavior of any type is treatable with the right kind of 
    help.  And something that I've never seen mentioned in here but think
    people who are looking for any kind of counseling should know.
    
    The two most important aspects of counseling are trust and comfort.
    If you do not feel comfortable with the person counseling you, or do 
    not trust that person.... chances are the treatments are not going to 
    do any good at all.  
    
    Skip