Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Re: .0
    
    Yes, you are being selfish.  The question is, is there anything wrong
    with your being selfish?  (Sometimes it's the right thing to do.)
    
    In this case, it's your body.  I'd say that gives you the right to be a
    little selfish if you want.
    
    Is it only the reversal procedure itself that you're against?  You say
    having children again is fine by you.  Does that mean you want to or
    does that mean you wouldn't object?

    I didn't react to that as being selfish.  Is that the real issue, or 
    is it whether to have children, or how to have children?  It sounds 
    (so far) like you wouldn't mind alternatives, but that she wants to 
    have _your_ children.  I can understand her feelings if that's how she
    feels, but as a remarried formerly divorced single parent, I think your
    feelings (particularly since it involves _your_ body) carries more
    weight.
    
    FWIW,
    Paula

    Yes, I think you are being selfish, and I am going to say something
    men hate to hear.  If you *really* loved her, you'd reverse the
    process.  Sorry, but that's just how I feel.
    
    If you don't love her enough, fine.  That's your business.  It's
    your life.  But, it's her life, too.  You already have two children.
     She doesn't have any yet.  How can you deprive her of children
    if you love her that much?  If you don't want to go out of your way
    for her, then tell her so, so she can find somebody else to marry
    and have kids with, and she won't waste anymore of her precious
    time with you.
    
    When I was young and had no children, I would never have married
    a man who didn't want to have kids with me.  In my opinion, no man
    is worth giving up the opportunity to have children.
    
    Lorna
    

 Lorna-

 Would you say the same thing from the opposite perspective, ie if the roles
were reversed? Or is the love commitment gender dependent? I thought the old
"If you _really_ loved me" line went out with bell bottoms. :-)

 I think the base noter is being selfish, but I refuse to say that it is wrong
for him to feel the way he does. I think he has to examine _why_ he is
reticent to consider reversing the process. Is he simply worried about the
process (having a very vulnerable part of your body invaded by surgical steel
can be rather intimidating)? 

 It also may not be medically possible for him to be reconnected, depending
on the procedure used to 'stem the flow.'

 If I was in love with a woman who wanted to have kids and I had been 
'decommissioned,' I'd be willing to reverse the process for her. Your mileage
may vary. On the other hand, I'm in no hurry to be decommissioned, either.

 The Doctah

    Speaking as a father of five, only one of whom was "home grown",
    I can understand the biological desire to use one's own body for
    procreation.  On the other hand, adoption is a real alternative
    for many people and it makes one just as "real" a parent.  
    
    A couple of questions to ponder:
    
    Is it parenting or pregnancy or both that's the issue?
    Could it also be, "Do you really love me?"
    
    Perhaps it's all three.

    Donald Reinke

    It's a shame that the relationship is so far along that you are
    considering getting married and now something as important as this
    comes up. Wasn't it thought about early on? Did you two ignore the
    issue, hoping it would go away? If she is young and would like a child
    (children) she is not going to change her mind. You are put in
    the position that you *can* do something about it. But have you also
    made up your mind? Never mind what we think about it. When you had the
    procedure done, you had your reasons, are they still as valid as they
    were then? 

    Unfortunately, the reality of the situation might be that the two of you
    are at very different points in your life. She's ready to settle down
    and start a family. You've got a family and are raising them. If your
    family can not be the equivalent of what she wants in a family then
    maybe the two of you might need to seek people that you can form "a more
    perfect union" with. If your reaction and hers to the idea of looking for
    someone else is very strong (negative), then maybe there is room for
    compromise, ie you will each re-evaluate how strongly you feel about
    your respective needs, considering your mutual need/love for each other.

    Please don't continue with the marriage idea until this issue is
    honestly and truly resolved to both your satisfaction. The confines of
    matrimony will not help either one of you make these decisions

    best of luck,

    Gail 

I will try to word this so as not to sound judgemental in any way toward 
either side.

I had a vasectomy at one point because I wanted no (further) children,
I didn't find the operation terribly painful or problematic(I checked into
a hospital for two days, no outpatient stuff for me[makes a difference]).
a few years later my (new) wife decided she really did want kids, we came to 
our own conclusions, I had the process reversed(again 2 days in-hospital)
no pain no problem, a good urologist does help. 
I was told the reconnects are 60-70% successful if the original disconnect
is within 5-7 years less successful if older.

Selfishness is not the question really. a happy marriage requires agreement
on all issues or at least a very caring commitment that you agree to disagree
but it doesn't matter. Issues that are truly basic/gut-wrenching/true-belief
issues can not be in disagreement from the begining of a marriage.
Sex, Religion, children, in-laws are a few that seem to be major stumbling 
blocks when there is a disagreement. Both people have to be sure of their
own beliefs and then if no common ground is reached that truly satisfies both
then walk-away. if you disagree about wallpaper color that is not going to 
cause grief but children are far too important to start off disagreeing about.

best of luck whatever you decide.
Send mail if you wish to discuss it in any way.
Amos

       Three quick comments;

       (1) Two friends of mine were married 10 years ago.  He had been a
           confirmed bachelor (40) and she had just graduated college
           at 23.  He didn't want children she did.  He finally agreed,
	   and they had Sam.  She divorced him 3 years ago for another
	   man.  They are on speaking terms and have joint custody of
           Sam (two weeks at a time).

	   (IMO) Moral of story:
	   When you have children, YOU have children, regardless of
           whos' idea it was!  This doesn't mean you can't change your
           mind. It just means, be sure YOU changed your mind. 

       (2) Reference
           .5> Is it parenting or pregnancy or both that's the issue?
           .5> Could it also be, "Do you really love me?"

           (IMO) These are excellent questions to answer and understand.
           You should know in advance if you are nurturing, passing on
           genes (sp), and/or taking a test. 

       (3) Reference .3> off the subject but ...
	   Between the lines it sure sounds like the way the divorce
	   court is treating me now.  That is;
	      "Regardless of the man's ability or feelings on
	       parenting, the woman gets the children, if she
               wants them." 


       I hope you and she can reach and agreement that both of you feel
       is the right thing to do.
       
       Richard

    I have a friend who got married two years ago for the second time.
    She has three sons from her first marriage, who now are 13, 14 and
    16 years of age.  The man she married has never been married before
    and has no children.  She had a tubal ligation long before she met this
    man because she was divorced and never planned on having any more
    children because the three boys were more than a handful (and that's
    an understatement!).  He, on the other hand, wants to have his own
    children badly.  Because of the love they share, she decided to
    go have her tubal ligation reversed.  She spent three days in the
    hospital to have this procedure done (major surgery), and went through
    severe pain.
    
    <Flame on>
    
    What I'm trying to get at is, if you love this women enough to want
    to marry her, then you must love her enough to want to make her
    happy.  IMHO the pain you may endure in the reversal of your vasectomy, 
    I don't think can compare to the pain my friend went through in
    having her tubal ligation reversed, nor can it compare to the pain
    of childbirth.
      
    <Flame off>
    
    Lori B.

Being a 'Pro choice' advocate, I find it easy to extend the same
ideas to this case. In short: it's **your** body, it's **your**
choice what to do with it. 

Selfishness has nothing to do with it. 'Loving her enough' has
nothing to do with it. 

On the other hand, the reply that cautioned you against accepting as
deep a commitment as marriage without a true agreement on this
point, makes sense.

All IMHO, of course.

-- Ron

    re. loving enough to make someone happy
    
    No one can make anyone else happy.  Certainly our actions can affect
    the happiness of others, but happiness comes from within. 
    
    re.0
    
    Yes, I believe you are being selfish. Yes, I believe you have a right
    to decide what is done with your own body, just as a woman has a right
    to decide what is done with hers.
    
    The issue before you is priorities, both yours and hers.  Do you want
    to spend your life with her enough to do make this change?  Does she
    want to spend her life with you enough to accept you for who and what
    you are?
    
    Even if the answer to one or both is 'no' it does not mean that you
    don't love each other or that either loves less, only that your goals/
    expectations from life are not in sync.
    
    I hoping for you both,
       Ann

    re: .0
    
    I think you are being very selfish.  But this is your choice, whether
    you want to reverse the vasectomy or not.  All I can say is that
    if I loved someone and they wanted children, I would do everything
    in my power to make this happen.
    
    Someone pointed out artificial insemination, that's a good idea
    if you can reach some type of compromise.  But you two should work
    this out (and probably should have at the onset of the relationship)
    thoroughly before you decide to "take the plunge" into marriage.
    
    I may be unable to carry a child due to severe health problems,
    and I make this very clear at the beginning of my relationships. 
    I want children very much, but it's only fair for me to let the
    people I care about know this about me before love starts.  Being
    young, you might think "can't have kids -- no problem", but as time
    goes on people's mind-set sometimes change and I want to make my
    situation VERY clear before anything serious develops.  This saves
    not only myself from hurting, but also the people I am involved
    with.  If they cannot accept it, so be it.  There is nothing more
    I can do.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Tammi
    
    

    
    	Lorna,
    
    	 I am mostly a silent reader in here and =WN=, but this one
    	really gets me. In =WN= the same sort of topic came up and
    	very few (if I remember correctly, you also) of the replies
    	EVER stated such a put-down remark as you stated "if you
    	loved her enough...blah, blah blah!!.  The whole gist of that
    	note went along the lines it's the woman's body and the man
    	should just accept her choice and leave it at that.
    
    	 I am surprised, I have seen your notes plenty and for the most
    	part agree with you on most issues. HOWEVER, I must take
    	exception to your outright disregard for the males rights and
    	feelings. Just suggesting either he shutup and give her the
    	child or if he doesn't, then she should dump him because he
    	really doesn't love her!! Where is it written that only if
    	two people have kids together is the only way they can really
    	love eachother?? Why does the woman have a choice to parent
    	or not without being labled 'unloving', yet no such treatment
    	for the man?

    Hit next unseen if you want now... 
    
    	What is this crap about not loving someone enough? 
                                        
    This sounds to me like classical cases in the past. "if you love
    me, you would......" Bull. If one is to have a fruitful, honest,
    and caring relationship, those type statements should never come
    up. If one person in a relationship has difficulty in doing something,
    it does not mean they are not in love. There could be many reasons
    for not doing so.
    
    	Selfish!? Maybe. But then again maybe not. Maybe there are reasons
    behind his not wanting to reverse it. Maybe instead of telling
    him he is selfish we should tell him to instead try to find the
    real reason he is so set against reversal. 
    
    	It seems people have very strong feelings on this subject. I
    think we could all be a little more understanding. There could be
    many deep seated feelings for his decision. Some of those feelings
    may not even be apparent. If he at this point reversed it and she
    got pregnant, there could be a very real feeling down the line of
    resentment. That scenerio could be much more devestating for the
    relationship.I think he needs to talk more about the subject, and/or
    get some help if need be, and find the reasons. Then, and only
    then should he make a choice.
    
    Ok! I will stop rambling........
    
    *
      )
    *

    Why is not wanting to reverse a vasectomy selfish?  Would it be
    as selfish if the woman didn't want children and the man did?  Would
    the woman then be required to have children anyway because "if she
    really loved him"...and so forth?  Why does anything need to be
    proven at ALL here?
    
    Re. 0  I don't think you are being selfish at all.  I think your
    girlfriend is if she is holding this as some sort of flag in front
    of possible marriage.  To turn the tables a bit, one could suppose
    if she "really loved you", then why can't she consider other
    alternatives?  Certainly no one in the modern world can be "deprived"
    of children if they want one--not with the abundance of unwanted
    kids around.  Nor with the alternative methods available. A child
    is a child is a child--what difference does it make how he/she was
    brought into being?  Being adopted should not make one less of a
    child than one more conventionally conceived--nor should a "test
    tube" baby, or artifical insemination, or anything else make the
    resultant baby somehow less than one obtained by any other way. 
    
    I think the excuse of "if you really loved me..." is a tired old
    cliche.  And sorely out of place.  Yes, marriage, or any committment
    involved some give and take, but if the give or take required is
    to such a major degree as this, something is wrong.  I'm sure
    .0 doesn't want elements of resentment threaded into what could
    possibly be a lifelong (or at least lengthy) committment.
    
                                                                   
    I do wish you luck.  I would hate to be caught in such a dilemma,
    which is why I try to make my views of child-bearing plain well
    in advance of any possible relationship.  
    
    regards,
    
    kim

	Re: .9 (Lori B.)

    
>            IMHO the pain you may endure in the reversal of your vasectomy, 
>    I don't think can compare to the pain my friend went through in
>    having her tubal ligation reversed, nor can it compare to the pain
>    of childbirth.

	I don't think anyone is trying to compare relative pain here.  The
	impression I got was not that the base noter wanted to reverse the 
	vasectomy but was worried about the operation, rather, he is not sure
	whether he wants to have it reversed, a different matter entirely.


>    What I'm trying to get at is, if you love this women enough to want
>    to marry her, then you must love her enough to want to make her
>    happy.

	Yes, but at what cost?  Assumedly the base noter had very good reasons
	for originally getting a vasectomy.  Are his reasons/feelings for doing
	so invalid now simply because she wants him to reverse the process?
	It sounds to me like you are saying that he should go through with it
	regardless of his own feelings ("If you love me, you'll do this"),
	which I feel is unfair to him.


>                  -< Why do men have to be such babies??? >-

		Why do women have to make such groundless generalizations???


	>>AL<<

Is it SO important that the child be conceived from your sperm?  Will
the child be loved any less if the sperm is implanted from another donor?

I don't believe you are being selfish at all.  You made a well thought
out decision at one time to have the vasectomy.  A decision that you 
took on the responsibility to make that affected your entire life, and 
you made the decision to have it.....

Is there some other reason for her wanting you to reverse it besides the fact
that the child will not BIOLOGICALLY be yours.  But when in reality, you 
will be the one there for the 9 months she carries it and the lifetime 
that you will raise the child.  Is it really THAT important to her to 
simply have your name ingraved on the sperm that impregnates her?  

It seems to me to be such a small, insignificant part of loving and raising
a child.

Perhaps I should read all the replies to this note..when I get the chance...
perhaps I just don't understand this feeling she has about the situation.

/kath

  

Just scanned through the replies here....

RE: those of you that said he was selfish and flamed at him....

	Don't you think she's being selfish too by not considering other
	options?

	I may be wrong, but I thought in Marriage, compromise was very 
	important.


/kath

	

    I agree - the "amount of love" that exists or doesn't exist is
    irrelevant.  I have a sneaking suspicion that he knew she'd want 
    children but figured she'd change and she knew he'd been sterilized 
    but figured he'd be willing to change.  I suspect neither ever really 
    cared to discuss this at any length, because early on it was "known" 
    to both what a snag this would be.
    
    That in itself is the real issue.  What is love if it doesn't include
    the free exchange of thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams?  The apparently
    guarded way these two have allowed their relationship to evolve
    bothers me more than the issues they've been guarded about.  If
    you love each other, you trust each other with your feelings.  Show
    them.  Be sincere, be kind and let the chips fall where they may.
    Real love has never been for the faint-of-heart.

    addendum to .12
    
    [I had hoped that this would not be obvious but, <sigh>]
    
    Selfishness, considering one's own needs and wants, is not inherently
    bad. 'to thine own self be true' and all that.
    
    I do not see in .0 a desire to exclude the needs and wants of the woman
    involved.
    
      Ann

	re: .0
    
    After reading the previous replies, and not seeing an answer I'd agree
    with, I'll put in one of my own: 
    
    >we have talked about taking our relationship to a more permanent stage
    >(re: the big M). 
    
    Why the big M ?
    
    >She has a condition though, she wants children which is perfectly fine
    with me, but I have a vasectomy.  She wants me to be reconnected and 
    
    Question: How can it be "fine" with you, if you don't want to reverse
    the vasectomy (which is not covered by most insurers) ?
    
    Solution: If pregnancy and children are the condition, AND its ok for
    her to have children which you are willing to be legally liable for;
    how about "artificial insemination" ? 

    >I don't want to reverse the process, once was enough and I'm
    not keen on going the other way.  
    
    Can't say I would fault that. Neither would I.
    
    >I am a divorced single parent and I love children so it's not based on
    a dislike of kids in any way shape or manner. 
    
    Do you "love" kids enough to want to support some more ?
    
    >We know there are other ways but she does  not want to consider these
    as possibilities. 
    
    Why not ? Is there some "magic" in your genes that is so unique
    that any other genes seems passe by comparison ? 
    
    >facts: I have 2 kids, I don't like the surgery, I like myself the way I

    How long (far back) into this relationship did the woman *know*
    you would NOT be willing to reverse the vasectomy ?

    >Am I being selfish here? 
    
    There may be several possibilities, if you can be patient enough
    to consider the "possibilities" of what "may be true" compared to
    what the "truth seems to be (as of today, anyway)".
    
    1) Logically, explore this rational.
    
    The "condition" of marriage to you, is that ONLY you may impregnate
    her ? T/F ?
    
    You maintain that you WILL NOT reverse the vasectomy ? T/F
    
    She maintains that M is possible only if YOU make her pregnant ?
    T/F ?
    
    Logically, either  on or both of you have decided that marriage is
    possible. 
    
    Given the conditions, either one or both have you have set up
    conditions to make marriage impossible. 
    
    MY opinion is that one or both of you want to TERMINATE the
    relationship, but neither wants to be "blamed" for its failure to end
    in a "happily ever after fairy story" type ending. 
    
    Further, (in my opinion) if YOU are selfish for now wanting to reverse
    the vasectomy, then SHE is selfish for making impregnation a condition
    of marriage.
    
    Is there any indication that she COULD get pregnant ?
    
    Is there any "experience history" in her family to suggest that "many
    relatives" have gotten married, gotten pregnant, gotten divorced all
    within a short time span ? 
    
    This isn't intended to hurt anyone (although I'm sure someone will
    probably complain anyway); but rather a exposition on the LOGIC
    involved (hah ! since when is Love logical ?).
    
    Based solely on your base note, and my own "lifes experiences", I have
    offered this as "possibilities" to consider. In the base note, I see
    two diametrically opposed opinions, which is certain to cause a clash.
    Have you consider PRE-Marital counseling to get the opinion of one who
    while concerned, has no stake in the outcome ?
    
    If your love for each other is that strong, then you will find a
    solution amenable to you both. Presently, since so much was left out of
    the base note, you both  may want to reconsider your position, in light
    of "what is REALLY important" to you. 
    
    "One who has found 'What is REALLY' important"
    
    Bob
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Re: .22
    
    >Is there some "magic" in your genes that is so unique that any other 
    >genes seems passe by comparison ?
    
    As I understand it, some people do find a bit of "magic" in the thought
    that part of them lives on in another human being.  Also, some find a
    bit of "magic" in the thought that a part of their loved one lives on
    in another human being.  I'm not so enraptured by the idea myself, but
    then, I'm not at all interested in having children, period.  (I have
    been warned that this can change; I'll just wait for it to happen.)

    re .0:
    
    Hi.  My recommendation is that you examine why you chose to have a
    vasectomy in the first place.  Are those reasons still valid?  If not,
    I'd suggest you see a doctor and talk about the medical implications to
    you of having a reversal operation.  Look after your own needs and make
    them clear to your ladyfriend.  Proving one's love by doing something
    that is strange or abhorrent to oneself is not really love; it's doing
    someone else's bidding.  Before you begin your analysis, though, do get
    the medical facts so you're working from information, not speculation.
    
    best of luck to you both,
    Marge


MAY 75

JOHN :	Hi doc.

DOCTOR :	Last time I saw you we performed the vasectomy wasn't it?

JOHN :		Yep.  I've remarried since.  My lovely wife wants children.
		How can I deny her?  I love her.  I need to have it reversed.

DOCTOR :	OK John.  Sounds like a reasonable request.

============================================================================

JUNE 78

DOCTOR :	Well John.  What can I do for you this time?

JOHN :		Need a vasectomy doc.  We've had two beautiful children.  Don't
		need any more.

DOCTOR :	OK John.  You know the procedure.  Lie back and relax....

                                 snip... snip

============================================================================

APRIL 80

DOCTOR :	What this time John?

JOHN :		Well Jane changed her mind.  She talked me into one more baby.
		I love her so much....

DOCTOR :	I admire your love for her, John.  You're so caring....

                                 snip... snip


============================================================================

OCT 82

DOCTOR :	You want another baby?

JOHN :		Yep.  Put'em back doc...

============================================================================

JAN 83

DOCTOR :	John!  What a pleasant surprise!

JOHN :		Well, doc... we're sure Jane is happy with three kids.  I need
		to do my part for birth control.  Jane changed her mind about
		having another baby.  Just as well...

DOCTOR :	Lie back John.  You know the procedure.

                                 snip... snip

=============================================================================

NOV 83

JOHN :		Doc.  I need to....

DOCTOR :	John.  We'll have to add some plastic tubing.  You don't have
		enough material there to knit a sweater for a piss ant.
		How is Jane?

JOHN :		Moody.

=============================================================================

JULY 84

JOHN :		Guess what doc?

DOCTOR :	We won't need medication.  I think we can just pull'em loose
		this time!  Hold still.

JOHN :		You know doc, I'd do anything to make Jane happy.

DOCTOR :	I know John.  You love her.

                                 tear... tear

=============================================================================

AUG 87

JOHN :		Doc!  I've gotten divorced from Jane.  She was so wishy-washy.
		But I've remarried and she'd really like to have ....

DOCTOR :	She wants babies, right?  You're "nuts" John.  Sit back...

=============================================================================

	Not sure of the process involved, but...

	Would it be possible for you to find out if the vasectomy *can* be
	reversed before you spend much more energy worrying about whether
	or not to do it?  If it can't be reversed, the discussion is
	academic. 

	Take care,
	Tara

    re 829.25
    
    Excellent!
    
    

    On the serious side...a couple additional points..
    
    1) the authors age should be considered-there does comes a point where 
       one just doesn't want to father any more kids - period.  Forget age 
       even - there comes a point when you just have enough kids no matter
       how many wives you go through.
    
    2) children as a condition of marriage??????  what if the
       reconstructive surgery doesn't take?  There isn't any guaranty.  What
       then?
    
    3) pro-choice arguments, etc.....
    
    4) who likes surgery?  I don't know anyone waiting in line for it.
       Facing the surgery can be scarey....but the DARVON sure evens the
       score.... "hey doc...can you do one side at a time"?
    
    To me me it sounds more like your being afraid than selfish.
    
    

RE: .0

Are you being selfish?  Yes.  Nothing wrong with it.  If the two of you don't
match you shouldn't be together...

RE: .3

Lorna, don't you think you are being rather harsh?  Everything that you say, 'if
you loved me enough, you'd do it' could be applied to the woman just as well.
'If you really loved me, you'd accept me without children', etc...

How can he deprive her of children?  He's not.  He already has children.  If she
doesn't want to be a part of that, then she is choosing not to have children.
There are many ways to fullfill her maternal instincts without forcing the issue
on the man.

Too many women treat men like they are nothing a device to get and support
children.  It's disgusting.

"In my opinion, no man is worth giving up the opportunity to have children."

How would you feel if some man told you 'no woman is worth putting up with
having children'?

I have two sons and they are more then enough for me.  Women have told me
several times that they would want to have *more* children.  If you ask me,
*that's* selfish.

Anyone who makes children a condition of marriage doesn't want a mate, they want
children.  Stay away from them.
                                                 
Jim.

    I think it's fairly natural for a woman to want her *own* biological
    children.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  I also
    think it's pretty common for a woman to want children by the man she
    loves.  That's not being unreasonable.
    
    In this case, however, I believe it may be unreasonable for a woman
    to demand that a man reverse a vasectomy so that she can have his
    child.  I think she needs to take a look at Reality here.  As previous
    replies have pointed out, a reversal might not work, anyway - what
    then??  
                                                      

    re:  .25  That was great!  Dave Barry has nothing on you!
    
    re:  Jim Baranski - I agree, for once, with everything you have
         said!  If kids are a condition of marriage, it's kids she
         wants and not necessarily the man.  I'd run, too!  He'll be
         the blame for everything, kid-wise, no matter how many hoops
         he jumps through.
    
    re:  Bob Early - yes, there is "magic" in the genes of a loved one.
         Genes are what makes us what we are and therefore are what
         we fall in love with.  Your statement gives me the feeling
         you think mating should not be "selective" but rather random,
         i.e. any old genes will do.  Nein! 

    No, you're not being selfish, regardless of what some people have said.
    Selfishness is thinking of your own desires to the exclusion of others.
    From your note, it seems quite clear that you're not thinking *only* of
    yourself, so no, you're not being selfish. There are, however, plenty
    of people in the world who seem to think that there is no middle ground
    between being selfish and being a doormat. A good number of these are
    selfish people who have learned that one of the best ways to get
    someone to do what they want is to call them selfish if they don't.

    This tactic is nothing less than emotional blackmail, and *extremely*
    selfish in and of itself, as it shows no consideration for the other
    person's feelings.

    Personally, I'm the sort who believes that emotional blackmail should
    not be given in to. That sort of threat makes me angry in a way that
    nothing else can. In practice, however, I've found that it's very
    difficult to deal with "conditions" (as you put it) in quite the way
    that I think that they should be dealt with (not at all).

    I think you should think about things. The sort of person to give
    conditions is the sort of person who gives conditions. Conditions are
    simultaneously maddening and nice. On the one hand, I'll rail with
    everyone else about how love should be unconditional and all that, but
    we're not talking about love, we're talking about marriage. There are
    plenty of people in this world that I love unconditionally, but I would
    never, *ever* be married to. So it's sort of nice that the condition is
    being put out on the table. It beats the heck out of being nagged to
    have your vasectomy reversed after having been married for a few
    months.
    
    In any event, you're liable to find yourself up against a condition in
    the future. You're going to have to be prepared, and know you'll have
    to stand your ground or back down. Standing your ground is not in and
    of itself selfish. *Always* standing your ground might be, but it's not
    selfish to not give in.

    	Jon

    First, I'm sure you're not alone in this decision - by far.  With
    all the alternatives we have to either parent or not-parent
    I'm sure more of us will some day be faced with such decisions.
    
    So many well stated comments here already.  But to summarize my
    opinion:
    	- For the health of the relationship - try to understand
    	  each other's lifetime needs and goals to determine if
    	  you have common ones.
    
    	- If compatible needs and goals and both of you WANT children 
    	  (BIG difference between "WANT" and "AGREE TO"), then get 
    	  each other's feelings on "what if it's not possible for 
    	  EITHER of you to bear children".  Discuss each of your
    	  feelings on the possible alternatives.
    
    	- Now, after you've fully discussed all this and understand
    	  each other's feelings, if the marriage is still a go and if
    	  you two DO decide to have a child - Make your decision
    	  on the "how" with all these feelings in mind.  Only
    	  you know just how strongly each other feels on these
    	  issues.
    
    	- One more person's feelings to consider will be those
          of the child some day.  
    
    	  If the decision is between having the reversal or using
    	  artifical insemination, I personally would find it more 
    	  painful to explain to my child why she has different 
    	  heredity factors or appearances than to undergo a
    	  surgical procedure.
    
    Good luck, this is not an easy decision.
    
    		- 
    
    		- 

    Many years ago, after having fathered two children, I decided I
    didn't want any more.  So I had a vasectomy.
    
    The world not being perfect my wife (at the time) and I were divorced.
    
    Several years later I married again, and after three or four years
    we decided that we would like to have a family of our own, so, even
    though the odds seemed against success (due to the long period of
    time since the vasectomy), I had the reversal operation.
    
    Well, it was successful (at least all the tests indicate that I
    *should* be able to father a child, biologically).  BUT, my wife
    and I were unable to conceive :^(.  Now, what?
    
    Two years ago we adopted a baby, who is the delight of our lives.
    Erik is *WONDERFUL* (do you want to see some pictures, I have some
    right here!!).  No way do I feel that he is any less "mine", just
    because he has some other biological parents somewhere.
    
    What all of this has pointed out to me is that there are no guarantees
    in life; many people are faced with the problem of not being able
    to have children together.  It seems to me that a relationship that
    is based on the desire of one or both parties to have (biological)
    children together could well be in real trouble if for some reason
    they are unable to make children together.  But PARENTING children
    is always an option (and much harder than just making them!).  Check
    out the *real* feelings involved here before going ahead with anything.
    It isn't just a matter of "selfishness" or "fear" or whatever; the
    underlying motivations are important.  The point of all of this
    is to ask the question:  What would happen if you did go ahead and
    have the operation and it was successful, but you two STILL couldn't
    make a baby?
    
    Erik's Daddy

"I personally would find it more painful to explain to my child why she has
different heredity factors or appearances than to undergo a surgical procedure."

You have got to be kidding.  Simply say that it was necessary.

Jim.

    in  re .33
    
    Why in earth would you find explaining the difference in genetics
    more difficult?
    
    To me it would be quite simple, just explain the process and that
    a doctor did it (once the kid knows that babies come from eggs
    and sperms) with some material he got from a < source > because
    the father had some reason why his weren't available.
    
    Not so different from explaining to an adopted child that they
    were adopted because mommy couldn't have anymore babies (as I did).
    Just tell the truth, simply and straight forwardly.
    
    Bonnie

Sounds like the situation is:
	If you (.0) "really" loved her, you'd reverse your vasectomy without
	all this uncertainty and reluctance.

	If she "really" loved you, she would automatically accept you as you are
	now and respect your wishes to avoid more surgery.

Hmm, guess perhaps neither of you "reallllllly" loves one another or this 
wouldn't be a problem in the first place.  :-) :-) :-)

Now, dropping that silliness, TALK TO ONE ANOTHER and try to figure out how you
both really feel about some of the issues:

	-does she want *your* *biological* children, or just to have children 
	in your combined household/life together?  

	-are you against having *any* more children in your life, or just 
	reluctant to undergo the surgery/hassles required for a reversal?  

	-how do both of you feel about adoption and artificial insemination?
	(note that it's probably someone else's sperm, given your vasectomy)  

	-and, for all cases, why do you feel this way?  What else might be
	acceptable stand?

There are combinations here that simply won't work, and some that may leave you
with room to reach agreement - and understanding the reasons why you both feel
as you do could affect your ultimate decision.  You DO need to get this settled
so that both of you are comfortable with the decision - it's not just your
relationship and happiness, but potentially that of those kids-to-be.

Communication and conflict resolution are essential to any relationship; you're
getting an early opportunity to learn how well it works in yours....  Good luck!
Hope you can agree on a solution that works for both of you.
		Helen