Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
         Forgiveness is massively important, to anyone who is interested
    in living life to the fullest.
         If forgiveness is not dealt with, repression and suppression of
    emotions will escalate and fester until, eventually, a major problem
    will surface, whether that be in the form of some physical ailment
    (ulcers, cancers, etc.) or rage or some other emotional blockage.
    Emotions must be dealt with...PERIOD.  Any emotion that has set up
    a situation that appears to be one in which forgiveness is the result
    must be handled.
         What forgiveness is important?  You may or may not forgive those
    who are involved in the situation.  That is something that only the
    person involved can do.  But what *IS* imperative is the ultimate and
    only necessary forgiveness...SELF-forgiveness.  Self-forgiveness is
    the ultimate forgiveness.  For if one cannot forgive themselves, what
    difference does it make if anyone else does or doesn't?  What if the
    person you seek forgiveness from is inaccessible (such as from death
    or distance?)  Does it mean you are doomed forever and ever to never
    get that emotion handled?  Seems rather pitiful, wouldn't you say?
    No, clearly it is not important to get that person's forgiveness...
    not that it wouldn't be helpful, but just not necessary.  So, from
    either end, whether "giving" or "getting" the forgiveness, the most
    important forgiveness is that given to the self...all the others,
    again, may be helpful and appropriate or not, but they are definitely
    not necessary.  
        HOW to find self-forgiveness is a separate issue and I do not wish
    to respond to that at this time.
    
    Frederick
    

    The people I've seen who profess themselves incapable of forgiveness
    tend to have comparatively short relationships (including friendships).
    
    It may not be healthy, but for me forgiveness is sometimes "temporary
    suspension of belief" - sort of a practical amnesia.  In such cases,
    it's not forever.  If I lose connection with the person I forgave, the
    memories come back.  Since they no longer interfere with a
    relationship, they aren't as painful and "forgiving" isn't important
    anymore.
    
    Most of the time, forgiveness involves putting an action in a different
    context and replacing judgment with understanding (or at least
    interpreting!).  The interpretation is sometimes as simple as, "Well,
    that's just the way she is".  When I can't come up with an
    interpretation, no matter how convoluted, that makes the action seem
    less horrible, then I say that I can't forgive it. 
    
    When I want to be forgiven, I want the person(s) to understand my
    circumstances and decide that I am more important than whatever grisly
    deed I've done.  This is a very uncomfortable feeling so I try not to
    expect forgiveness.
    
    I don't understand the stuff about self-forgiveness and don't think
    I've ever experienced it. 
    
    Ray

    forgivness:
    
    1. to excuse for a fault or offense.
    2. to stop feeling anger for or resentment against.
    3. to absolve from payment.
    
    It's clear to me, from Websters definition, that forgivness is the
    ack of mentally and or physically releasing someone from being mentally
    or physically indeted to you. The interesting part about that
    forgivness for the other person is that it also allows the person
    doing the forgiving to release themself from the bonds of retribution.
    
    One should also note that forgive doesn't mean forget.
    Fool me once shame on you.
    Fool me twice shame on me.
    This might appear to be a dichotomy to the previous paragraph but
    in translation, to me anyway, it says "In order for me to trust
    you with another bottle of my best wine I'll have to be sure you've
    kicked your previous drinking problem." 
    
    Deb & Reg

    Something I read about forgiveness a long time ago has always stuck
    with me, so I'll pass it along here.
    
    To forgive someone means we have judged them.
    
    Based on that simple statement, instead of asking for forgiveness,
    I ask for understanding.
    
    Susan

    
    >>What is forgiveness
    
      I think it's a beautiful part of human relationship maintenance
    
    >>What is it supposed to accomplish
    
      My belief is that in the process of building a relationship
      with another person, I tend to misread others, misjudge them,
      set my expectations too high and in the process I may frustrate
      that person, or I may disappoint them with my actions.
      Taking responsibility for what I did means to me that I
      will eventually have to look at what I've done and determine
      if I was wrong. Well, I already know I'am not perfect and
      I have to acknowledge that to others and say more than I'am Sorry.
      I need to express in understandable terms my actions to them...
      I don't do this real well..but it's necessary to maintain, if
      possible, the relationship in question
    
    >>Why is it important
    
      Well, again it's my acknowledgement that I've really hurt
      someone and if I really care for that person then I need to
      tell them whats going on in my heart and my mind
      This is hard for me also...But necessary regardless of how
      I think the other person is going to respond to me
    
      I think in business the norm is to forget that others
      are persons and have feelings, it's hard during the
      course of a working day to stop and say I'm sorry
      I did or said that. I wish I could do it more often
    
      again I believe forgiveness is beautiful, because it
      is a necessary lubricant to a well oiled relationship
      with another person...just my feelings
    
   --Christopher

    re: .4
    
         I would urge you to be cautious with that choice of words...to ask
    someone to be understanding OF YOU could likely be seen as a choice
    made by you to abnegate your responsibility.  In other words "This
    is how I am, too bad you were hurt, just understand it..."  It has
    been suggested, by an esteemed friend of mine, that we are here on
    this planet to be UNDERSTANDING, *not to be understood.  It shifts the
    burden from them to you, where it rightly belongs, especially in
    a situation that obviously caused hurt.
    
    
    Frederick
      

    Re: .0
    
    >What is forgiveness?  
    >-  What is it supposed to accomplish?  
    >-  Why is it important?
    
    As I understand it, forgiveness is supposed to remove the resentment of
    one person (the forgiver) toward another (the forgivee).  It's
    important because it's difficult to get along well with someone if you
    have lingering resentment; it sneaks out and causes disruptions and
    problems all over the place.
    
    >Are there any prerequisites for forgiveness?  
    >-  Does the one being forgiven have to ask for forgiveness and/or 
    >   express repentance?
    
    Since the decision to forgive is made by an individual, I don't think
    there are any requirements.  I would find it hard not to resent someone
    who failed to be sorry about doing something painful, but it's
    possible.  I find that, if someone asks for forgiveness, I feel an
    obligation to forgive them.  I think this sense of 'obligation' is
    fostered by a lot of reconciliation scenes.  I don't think it's
    necessary to forgive someone just because they ask it; you're just
    going through a social form and you haven't really resolved the
    resentment.  (Worse, you now get to feel guilty about resenting them,
    since you've supposedly forgiven them.)
    
    >-  Does the forgiver have to wipe the incident from mind and 
    >   memory and go on with life as if it never happened?
    
    Not required, not even possible for major events, in many cases.
    
    >-  Can one sincerely say "I forgive you" yet still deplore the 
    >   hurt?
    
    Depends on what you mean by "deplore."  The key is resentment.  If you
    can deplore an act without resenting its effect on you, then it's
    possible for you to deplore the hurt but still forgive.

"As I understand it, forgiveness is supposed to remove the resentment of one
person (the forgiver) toward another (the forgivee)."

Properly done, forgiveness also removes the guilt felt by the forgivee.

Jim.

    No doubt you understand that anyone answering such a deep question
    as this will be doing so from the depths of their being -- at a
    level wherein the languages of religion and philosophy are more
    appropriate.  I am answering out of my personal background as a
    Christian with a mystical bent, but I acknowledge and affirm the
    backgrounds of others.

>>>>>>What is forgiveness?  
    
    For me, forgiveness looses the bonds of resentment, which I visualize
    as a hook in my belly that formerly bound me to the person I'm forgiving.
    
>>>    -  What is it supposed to accomplish?  
    
    For me it's freedom.   I'm of the opinion that forgiveness has no
    direct effect on the person forgiven, since ultimate forgiveness
    became available to us through the sacrifice of Jesus.
    
>>>    -  Why is it important?
    
    Resentment is hell.  

>>> Are there any prerequisites for forgiveness?  
    
    In some cases, I've had to pray desparately for the ability to forgive.
    Such was my hatred.  I guess you've got to be willing to give up
    your resentment, and the convenient excuses it provides.

>>> -  Does the one being forgiven have to ask for forgiveness and/or 
       express repentance?  
    
    Depends.  Ask your heart.  In general, it helps to externalize what
    you've done on the inside.
    
>>> -  Does the forgiver have to wipe the incident from mind and 
       memory and go on with life as if it never happened?
    
    I don't think so, but if your memories still raise your hackles chances
    are you've got more work to do.
    
>>> -  Can one sincerely say "I forgive you" yet still deplore the 
       hurt?
    
    Well, we do have to clean up after our and others' mistakes, and
    it's not always fun.  
    
>>> What, if any, healing is supposed to result?
>>> -  For the forgiver?
    
    	You get to be free of your resentment.

    >>> -  For the forgiven?
    
    If my theory is correct, then nothing directly -- they're already
    forgiven by God.  However, your forgiveness allows healing in the
    family of humankind, and that's a lot.

    In addition, there are I believe pathological people who will use
    a person's resentment for further harm.  Forgiveness deprives them
    of that weapon.
    

    Donald Reinke

    I can forgive some people for the most rotten of things done to
    me....(very few, really) and never forgive others for smaller things.
     
    It depends on the person and what they mean to me.  But in all cases,
    I never, never, NEVER forget.
    
    kim

    
    I don't mean to be a devil's advocate here but I have a question.
    If we forgive someone but we don't forget; have we really forgiven
    that person?  According to Mr. Webster, to forgive is to "give up
    resentment of or claim to requital for."  If we forgive someone
    but we still remember - can we remember the incident or person without
    feeling resentful???
        
    On the other hand, do we remember so that we do not run into the
    same situation again?
        
    Kris

    Re:  -.1
    
    I suppose as a race we can remember Atilla the Hun and his actions
    without resenting them.  Though most of us don't remember it, we can
    acknowledge that we got a slap on the behind after childbirth without
    resenting it.  One reads of the spouses of murder victims who can say
    they've forgiven the murderer.  Leaving aside the question of whether
    they're kidding themselves, there must be an ache and an emptiness that
    would remind them of the fact of the murder.  
    
    If you believe the occult teachings about the so-called Akashic
    Records, everything that's ever happened is recorded there, though it's
    not for anyone to "get the goods" on another.  Thus, there is no
    forgetting.  Finally, there's the understanding that nothing happens to
    us but that we ask for it.  If you've bought an experience -- at
    however great a price -- then for God's sake use it for your own
    growth.  Yes, I think one can remember without resentment. 
    
    I am reminded of one of the more healthy ways of looking at unfortunate
    experience.
    
    GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE ... EXPERIENCE COMES FROM BAD
    JUDGMENT.
    
    Donald Reinke

>>    GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE ... EXPERIENCE COMES FROM BAD
>>    JUDGMENT.
        
        
    Don,
        
    Thanks for the interesting note...Regarding the above statement,
    I'd say that for the most part it does speak the truth.  However,
    at times I find myself thinking "surely, I can learn and grow through
    good times just as well."  Is the statement that experience comes
    from bad judgment an avenue to help us through the trying times?
    Personally, I have alot more to learn (I'm sure there are some who
    will agree wholeheartedly!) but I'd hate to think that I have alot of 
    bad judgments to make - it really gives me something to anticipate!
        
    I believe in using the gift of experience but it's the process of
    getting the gift that I'd like to modify!!
        
    Kris
    
                                                            

Experience literally means

  "ex" = previous
  "perience" = peril - to expose to danger, hazard

Exposing oneself to danger (taking a risk) is not necessarily the result
of bad judgement.  I like to think of it as putting oneself on a collision
course for learning.

- Peter

Re:  .14

>>> at times I find myself thinking "surely, I can learn and grow through
>>> good times just as well."  Is the statement that experience comes
>>> from bad judgment an avenue to help us through the trying times?
>>> Personally, I have alot more to learn (I'm sure there are some who
>>> will agree wholeheartedly!) but I'd hate to think that I have alot of 
>>> bad judgments to make - it really gives me something to anticipate!

    Hope it didn't sound like I was advocating making mistakes just to gain
    experience.  (Actually, a deliberate mistake wouldn't be a mistake,
    I suppose ... )   I think the point of the aphorism might be more
    along the lines of a parable I like to repeat:  
    
    It's about a wise Chinese farmer whose horse ran away.  Friends
    said, "That's Bad!"  But the farmer said, "Who knows what's good
    or bad?"
    
    Sure enough, in a couple of days, the horse returned, bringing along
    three other horses it had found in its travels.  Friends said, "That's
    Good!"  But the farmer said, "Who knows what's good or bad?" 
    
    Well, it happens that the next day, the farmer's son broke his leg
    while trying to break in the new horses.  Friends said, "That's Bad!"
    But the farmer said, "Who knows what's good or bad?"
    
    The emperor's soldiers came through the neighborhood on the next day,
    impressing young boys into the emperor's army.  They bypassed the
    farmer's son, however, because he had a broken leg.  Friends said,
    "That's Good!"  But the farmer said, "Who knows what's good or bad?" 
    
    ...
    
    None of the foregoing should belittle the pain or diminish the joy that
    you and I feel on occasion.  Rather, it is intended to allow a certain
    detachment that's needed in order to use pain and sorrow as well as joy
    and happiness to one's own advantage.  I'm an advocate of what a man
    called Glenn Clark once called "Cosmic Jiu Jitsu".  The judo master, as
    you probably know, uses her/his opponent's bodily force to the
    advantage of the master. The force of events is available to you, also.
    That force is like electricity, in that it is amoral -- neither good
    nor bad. It's strong enough to kill you, but if it wasn't so, it
    wouldn't be much use, either. 
    
    Finally, you can choose joy and happiness without fear of a boring
    life, but choosing joy and happiness is not the same as avoiding pain.
    If you are centered, then just the right amount of excitement will
    always come to you. 
  
    Donald Reinke
    
    
                                                            

      Our ability to forgive is directly proportional to our ability
      to love, to grow, to be free.
    
      Craig
    

    Hello Everyone,
    
    	For me to forgive someone, is to understand and care about the
    	individual.
    
                                              Marc

    Forgiveness is getting the poison out of your own system.  Like every
    other moral act, it is essentially enlightened self-interest.