Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    First I'd just like to say that it's YOUR life and you should be
    able to do as you please and not be intimidated by others.  If you
    and your future husband choose not to have children then people
    should respect that decision - not tell you otherwise.  
    
    If people think that getting married is only for the purpose of
    child bearing, than I think their's must be a very strange
    relationship.  What about those couples that CAN'T have children,
    should they not be married?!  I have never known of any stated rules
    or laws to justify a marriage - it's simply a decision made by two
    people who love each other very much - and what ever comes to follow
    whether it be children or not is their decision to make!!
    
    Be happy that you have found somebody to share your life with and
    let the rest happen as it will.
    
    JP
      

Boy does this hit close to home. Since there are only nieces in my family,
everytime we get together the subject comes up. Somehow it has become my
responsibility to have boys. So far I haven't been able to break it to
anyone in the family that I don't plan on ever having kids. But when I
do, I'm not looking forward to all the flak I'm sure to get. Right
now all I can do is sit there and growl, because I know nobody is going
to understand my decision.

Jenna

    
    
    Having endured the incredibly uncouth remarks that you mentioned
    I would only advise you to return pure silence when people say
    those things to you. The minute you try to explain your point of
    view which they cannot comprehend anyhow, you open the door for
    others to convince you of the so called error of your ways. Also
    by offering silence, you avoid the risk of saying something that
    you may regret.
    
    good luck 
    

    We are experiencing the same, albeit more subtle, pressure from
    friends and family.  We've announced our intentions to friends,
    who seem to dismiss our decision as temporary.  We've been less
    direct with our families.  It is very difficult to be frank and
    open if you anticipate a great deal of flak.
    
    We're both career-oriented people.  Sometimes I get the impression
    that the family is waiting for Judi to "get it out of her system."
    (Grrrr.)
    
    Fortunately, we are 500 miles away from my parents, and 2000 miles
    away from hers.  Proximity would make it tougher.  
    
    I wish you luck.  There are many of us who share your dilemma.
    
    Mike

    Not quite the same situation for me (we are planning children sometime
    in the nebulous future), but I have had in-laws bugging us to have
    children right away and questioning our decision to postpone it
    (we are 30 and 35).  
    
    After months of being polite about it, nodding my head and smiling
    at their arguements, I finally bluntly told my sister-in-law, "You
    know, this situation is really none of your business, so I'm not
    going to discuss it with you anymore."  Then I used the silent routine;
    if the subject came up, I would just look at her and not say anything.
    

I agree with .5
    
It seems to me that "That is a private matter between x and me, and I'd prefer 
not to discuss it" suffices.  If the other person wants to continue the 
discussion, the weren't well-intentioned in the first place. 

If your change your mind later, you won't have to deal with the "See, I told 
you [wink]" later.  If you don't change your mind, you won't have to spend the 
rest of your life engaging in unwinnable and never ending debates.

Clay

    Jeez, who cares?  No one in my family gives me flak simply because
    they know it's a total waste of their time and breath.  And I don't
    think I EVER got any more flak than the usual, "You'll change your
    mind when ... [you grow up]... [you fall in love]... [you see your 
    friends having babies]".  
    
    I've always just laughed that people assumed I was so wishy-washy as to 
    let such a monumental decision be made for me by mere outside circum-
    stances than by my own clear thinking and planning of the way I want
    to live my life.
    
    Trust me.  One or two smirks of pure amusement at such ignorance is
    all it takes.

    It's not so easy to smirk or laugh at some people, especially
    elderly, well-meaning relatives.  When I had been married for
    five years but no children were in sight, I started to get a lot
    of pressure from some of my family.  The strongest was from my
    82-year old grandmother, who would sigh and say in a resigned
    voice "So you've decided not to have children."  We had in fact
    decided the exact opposite, but the time wasn't right yet.  But
    to make her feel foolish would have been pretty crass on my part.
    
    The line I generally used when asked when we were going to have
    children, was, "Not in the next nine months!"  This worked pretty
    well.
    
    Children are not for everyone.  Women (and men) ought not to be
    made to feel selfish if they choose not to have children.  And
    on the other side, women (and men) should not be scorned if they
    DO choose to have children (and this happens too!)
    
    						Steve

    Isn't it amazing what well-meaning relatives put us through?
    It's as if their way of thinking and doing is the only "right" way.
    
    I like what JP said in .1 about marriage.  It is not just for people
    who want to reproduce together, but for people who want to share
    their lives with one another.  The notion of only getting married
    to have children is outdated, and I wish the laws would allow any
    two people who want to share in that joy to have legal recognition
    as well - including people of the same sex (but why would they want
    to marry? - see .1)
    
                  Carol

    I remarked at one point (In the Yuppie Breeders topic) about my
    beliefs.  Yes my SO and I will get married, probably within the
    next few years.  We plan to live in connubial happiness, learning
    and growing and changing together for a *LONG* time.  We have dealt
    with many crises so far, and will probably have to deal with many
    more.  We are relatively sure we do not want children.  I plan to
    wait a while and gather information on alternatives - working at
    child care centers, babysitting relatives' kids, being a big brother
    / big sister, borrowing/sharing friends' children, being foster
    parents, teaching at a local school or camp (for little or no money),
    reading to kids at local libraries on the weekends.....these are
    just a few.  There are myriad ways in which we can interact with
    and positively impact children, particularly those who need attention
    and love and understanding.  I just don't wish to bear any myself.
    If either of our parents' or relatives or friends give us grief
    over this - then we will explain first *>quietly<* and then 
    *>LOUDLY<* that this is OUR life, and OUR decision.

    -Jody
    

    Because of my sense of humor, I'll often tailor a responses to
    the people and the tone of the question.  Usually something non-serious
    and non-informative.  For example, if someone asked:
    
    Q: Why get married if you're not going to have a family?
    A: I was attracted to the tax disadvantages.
    
    Q: ...you'll regret it.
    A: Well, I can always start a day-care center.

    However, there are times when this doesn't work well, especially with
    'repeat offenders'.  Then, it has helped to be a bit more, um, direct.
    For example, when my mother asked me when I was going to get married,
    and have kids, I'm afraid I mentioned the 'F' word as part of my
    response.  We do still get along, and, she hasn't asked since! 

    Kak

    
    	Since my wife and I were married, (almost 8 years now), we
    both decided that we didn't want any kids. Both sets of parents
    were very disappointed. We got crap from everybody. We enjoyed
    our life together. We became real good friends. After about
    three years of telling everyone of our decision, it was acccepted
    and no-one seemed to bother us anymore.
    	We did alot of traveling, spent alot of time together, and
    always had things going on. Then as time went by, it seemed like
    we were in kind of a slump. "What do you want to do today?" All
    we were doing was working.  Then we saw everyone we knew having
    kids. We started to think more seriously about having a baby
    around the house. On April 15th, our daughter was born. What a 
    change this has made in our lives. A BIG change. It's great! 
    	I guess what I am trying to say is, if you decide not to 
    have any children, or are not sure, SPEAK YOUR MIND! If people
    can't accept that, then that's too bad. We didn't feel as though
    we *needed* any kids to fulfill our lives. We enjoyed it the
    way it was.
    	It seems like when we were single, it went like this...
    
    	"When are you going to get married?"
    
    	Then, "When are you going to have kids?"
    
    	Now it's, "When is your daughter going to have a brother or
    		      sister to play with?"
    
    It really never stops.
    
    Dan
    

    
    It seems that there is an "optimum" number of children to have as
    well.  A couple I know have been wanting a large family and just
    recently began their fifth - and lo and behold, they get the same
    sort of flack from their family and friends about having too many!
    
    I have 2 kids, but I understand the statistical average is 2.2 -
    anybody got any suggestions for that extra .2 so I can TRULY fit
    in and be normal???

    
    re: .0
    
    Having known you for quite some time (and not having spoken with
    you in quite awhile), I have to say I'm surprised.  Personally,
    I respect your decision - Hey, if that's what the two of you want
    (or don't want), then be that as it may.
    
    Since good old USO closed, it's been a long time since we talked.
    To be honest, I have to agree with your mother.  With your personality,
    I think you'd make a terrific mom.  But,... no one can make you
    decide otherwise.
    
     - Beckie
    
    PS: Since we last spoke, I remarried and joined the ranks of working
        mothers.  Best of Luck.

    Sorry, Steve, I wasn't advocating slapping a wistful grandmother
    in the face with sarcasm!  We were talking about FLAK which I consider
    to mean "repeated crap no matter what".
    
    I would be appalled at any outsider who probed more deeply than
    one delicate question meant as small-talk.  Family memebers are allowed to
    probe slightly more deeply and express their desires for us but
    they're just not allowed to dwell on their desires or really believe
    in them.  We can listen, patiently and explain patiently our position.
    
    After that, all attempts to discredit our positions or sway them,
    by anyone, constitutes flak and deserves what it gets.
    

    I consider that if I'm talking to people I love and care about, whose
    opinions matter to me  -- my family and my husband's family fall into
    that category, though I know many people whose families are the last
    people they want to hear from -- that if I don't want to have to defend
    my position about something to them, I don't mention it in the first
    place. 
    
    Telling them something that I know they won't like, then refusing to
    talk about it, has never worked.  (In my case it's been mostly career
    decisions; I learned from my mistake and refused to discuss the
    possiblity of more children until I announced I was pregnant.)  It
    makes people mad. They feel like I don't trust them enough to tell them
    what's going on. As my brother once asked me, "What's the matter, are
    you afraid I'm going to call your boss and tell him you don't like
    him?" 
    
    I'm not saying my brother's feelings are right, or that anybody else's
    family reacts this way.  But in my case, it seems that either you're
    willing to discuss it, or you keep it totally private.  You don't
    dangle bait and then slam the other person when he or she swallows it. 
    
    --bonnie

    We have yet to decide one way or the other; so we get truckloads
    of static on pumping out those kids.  Mostly from my mother.  My
    wife has two standard replies - for friends who ask it's "Dwight
    hasn't made up his mind" (heck, _I_ won't be the pregnant one),
    and for my mother "...he can't...".  It did give us a little respite,
    until my mother figured out it was a bigger crock than she was giving
    us.
    
    Dwight

    
    
    My wife and I have been married for the last four years, and that
    is considered by many more than enough time to have settled down,
    and start having family. Not to us though.
    
    Every time a person (male or female) asks me about the plans that
    my wife and I have made, as far as having family is concerned, I
    always try to let them know that the matter is none of their business,
    by using some remarks like "oh, we'll have our first baby one of
    these decades", and the person usually gets the picture. If not
    then I just say "what's the next topic you want to talk about??".
    
    ART. 

    
    I have been married over 4 years.  My husband is 39 years old and 
    I am 31.  Our families have been pretty good about not nagging and 
    prying about kids, but I've had a significant problem with a couple 
    of contemporaries and in one case have seen a friendship spanning 
    half my life just erode.
    
    My friend got married about a year and a half after I did.  She
    had her first child a year later, and just gave birth to her second
    in April.  Every time we talk, she asks me when I plan on having
    kids.  I am really rather ambivalent, kids would be fine, but I
    know our life could be happy without them too.  This friend is a
    classic Y-person; we were very close in high school, stayed
    close in college, and for a few years later.  But when she became
    a mother, she turned into a monster.  Our other best friend from
    high school is still really close to me and is divorced.  Every
    time the three of us get together, usually on a Saturday, "mom"
    drags her "adorable" little tot along and spends the entire time
    catering to him and saying "do you want to hold him?"...now there's
    a leading question.... The last time we got together,we were talking 
    about our jobs.  At the time, I had a second job, for a few hours 
    one night a week and I mentioned this.  "Mom" pipes up with "I have
    TWO full time jobs".  I missed it...what she ment was her job in
    her family business and being a mother.  It was such an obnoxious
    and pointed comment in context.  It is great to be proud of your
    kids, but her motherhood has completely consumed her personality.
    Why can't she leave her children with Dad for a few hours on
    Saturday to see her female friends?  My husband would welcome
    such opportunity if we had kids.  She really has turned off her
    old friends and has even said that we probably won't be spending
    much time together until we are parents too.  Anyone else out
    there in note-land encounter this phenomenon?  I hope that
    if I decide to have kids, I don't turn into monstermother from
    beyond the green swamp!!!!!
    
    Another situation that is hard for non-parents with their
    new-parent friends is the obligation to coo, chirp, and fuss
    over the infant. "Want to hold the baby?".....usually from
    me, the answer is "No", but it is so rude and insulting
    to the parental units that I always say "yes" and end up
    mopping drool, and examining the ever-interesting tiny
    fingernails.  I know that I could be a parent, hopefully
    a good one, but kind of wish that kids arrived at age 6,
    matured to age 12, and then jumped to age 20.  But I digress.....
    

    re: .19 --
    
    As the mother of the most adorable curly-haired blue-eyed
    three-year-old in the world -- 
    
    If you don't want to hold the baby, or play catch with him, or whatever
    obnoxious drooly think he wants you to do, PLEASE SAY NO.
    
    I'm sorry to shout, but I'm not a very good mind reader, and if you're
    a reasonably good actor or actress I'm likely to be unable to tell how
    interested you really are in the kids.  One of our childless friends
    comes over regularly just to tussle with Steven and admire Kathy's
    rock-and-roll and Air Force posters, another likes to see the children
    when he comes to dinner but doesn't care to play, and yet another I
    always meet at a restaurant for lunch since she really hates to be
    interrupted by the children's noise.  I didn't pick up on her distaste
    until she made a rather caustic remark almost a year after Steven was
    born -- thank God she finally said something! 
    
    One other thing -- your spouse might be glad to watch your [potential]
    child for a few hours on Saturday so you could go out with friends,
    but many husbands are not so obliging or so willing to take on that
    much share of child-raising responsibility.  
    
    --bonnie

    I have always wanted children, got married had two and have never
    been sorry. They are both adults now and I find I have a very low
    tollerence for people under 20.  Someone elses decision to have
    or not to have children is none of my business.  My sister has been
    married for 14 years and has opted not to have children, I have
    never asked her why not, that decision is between her and her husband.
    
    I have another friend who is going through fertility treatments
    to have children, She dosen't care to tell the world but people
    keep asking her when is she going to start a family, This is very
    uncomfortable for her. 
    
    I have no problem saying no to holding someones soggy baby.  I also
    get upset with the modern practice of taking children every where,
    but thats another subject.  Some times I think the parents that
    choose to "wait" to have children are the biggest pains. They approach
    child rearing as if no one else ever did it, and if they did it
    wasn't done correctly.  

We decided against children before marriage. My feelings about having 
children are the same as my feelings about planting grass on the roof of my 
house or flying the flag of Babalon on my car antannae -- it simply did not 
occur to me.

Some people have been fairly agressive about asking "why not" and then 
telling me I would anyway.  While their intrusiveness surprises me, it 
doesn't usually annoy me because a lot are just making noise, it's a 
subject they can talk about, and they also get noisy on mortgage rates.
A few people have been offensive, so I offended back. That's OK. Repeatedly 
offensive people are usually tough skinned too.

Interested = asking sometimes out of interest. 
Aggressive = asking repeatedly at every visit.

HOWEVER, I did occasionally ask myself "Does not wanting children mean I'm
weird?"  So I was relieved to find a demographic study that showed the
number of children a man or woman has varies +/- according to the number of
siblings. By the way, I'm not a mathematician so the wording is awkward,
but I remember the finding correctly: 

The number of children you will have tends to deviate from the average
number of children in the same amount that your parents' number of 
children deviated from the average.

Ex: If Fran's parents had 2 children, they had a small deviation, so Fran
is likely to have 1 to 3 children. 

Ex: If Fran's parents had 8 children, they had a large deviation, and Fran
is likely to have either 10 to 6 children or 1 to 0 children.  That is,
Fran will deviate from the average, as her parents did, but the deviation
can be in either direction.  

Ex: If Fran looks into the crystal ball, she is likely to find she is Ayn 
Rand or Ma Kettle and unlikely to find that she is Mrs. Cleaver.

PS  I am one of 12, childless, with 32 nieces and newphews. 32/12 = 2.6
    and my siblings birth years ranged 1931 - 1948.

    This study cheered me up because it seems to say "I'm not weird, I'm 
    just deviating like dear old mom and dad."  But then I reflect that
    being cheered up by demographics is probably weird.

                        Keep on deviatin'        Meigs

    If we are going to get into statistics, I've read that the number
    of children a woman can be expected to have is inversely proportional
    to number of years of education she had.  Thus, a woman who did
    not complete grade school is likely to have a relatively large number
    of children, as compared to a woman who graduated from high school,
    on up, until a woman with a PHD is unlikely to have any children.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    
    Over there, with the continuity, in a box :-)
    
    DFW

    I spoke with a friend of mine this past weekend about this particular
    note.  I love kids, she tolerates kids and doesn't plan to ever
    have any of her own.  (I wish I could have her share)  Anyway, the
    story she tells people who pressure her as to WHY? is....
    "The only way I'd have kids is if I could have twins (wouldn't want
    to be pregnant twice and wouldn't want an only child) and since
    it is impossible to plan twins I'm not having any."  She said that
    seems to shut them up for a while.  The reason we get along so well
    is because she respects my desire and love for children and I respect
    the fact that she chose never to have any.  Isn't that what its
    all about?  Choice.
    

RE 360.26 by "Bob_the_hiker" 

>    There seems (don't know if its true) to be a connection between
>    how long a woman lives and the number of children she's had; with
>    the woman with the most children being the first to pass away.

     Can one make bets via notes?  'Cause I put up $5 to say this is
     not true.  There is a correlation between income and longevity and
     also a correlation between income and number of children, but I've
     never heard of a direct, biological relationship between number of 
     children and longevity.

                                         Meigs

    Having many children may lead to a longer life. My grandmother gave
    birth to 9 children and raised 7 of them. She died two years ago
    at 105 years of age.
    
    -j

    Ummm, I seem to recall that one's chances of dying in childbirth
    increased by a small but fixed percentage, so that the chance
    of dying reached 50% with the tenth child.  (A *very* old memory.)
    
    Even if my figures are wrong -- or wildly out-of-date -- the concept
    is basically true:  The risks of pregnancy and childbearing increase
    with the number of pregnancies and children.
    
    							Ann B.

    It doesn't stop there...  my family and friends are constantly
    informing me that my decision to have only one is cruel and
    selfish !  People are never happy with someone elses' decisions.
    
    jacki
    

    We have been married just over 2 years, no kids.  There has been
    constant pressure from my in-laws to have kids (well, you're married
    now, and that's what you do when you get married!).  At the same time
    we're informed that my mother-in-law will NOT babysit because she's
    67 and has already brought up 5 kids of her own and doesn't care to
    take care of anymore!  
    On my side of the family there's absolutely no pressure at all, when
    the decision is made by us, that's fine, if it's never, that's fine,
    and my mom would love to care for our kids!
    
    We're starting to talk about kids for the first time.  We have never
    seriously discussed it before.  My question to all of you is, how
    DO you afford it ?!  Everyone says, oh, you'll manage, you'll find
    a way, etc, etc.  Well, if we barely make it now on 2 incomes, how
    can we possibly add day-care to that ?!  and all the other expenses
    that I can't even begin to imagine must come with kids....     

    Well, it ain't easy.... you give up a LOT.... learn to econimize more
    then you do now.... and hope it works out......... when you HAVE to
    give it up, it's amazing how much you no longer need
    
    Skip

.32>    We have been married just over 2 years, no kids.  There has been
    
.32>    We're starting to talk about kids for the first time.  We have never
.32>    seriously discussed it before.

Didn't the issue of children ever come up while you were courting?

.32>    My question to all of you is, how DO you afford it ?!

If you can afford a spouse, you can afford children...

    re .34
    
    I agree! adding kids didn't make us any poorer..
    
    it seems like we've been broke at an ever higher income level
    for years
    
    
    really if you get used furniture and hit the flea markets  and
    nurse and wash your diapers kids don't really hit you finacially
    until they start school (assuming you don't feel compelled to
    have new everything and buy every toy and have designer clothes)
    The big expenses hit when they are teenagers and in hs and college..
    
    and then they can earn some of the money themselves...
    
    We have 5 kids and the main reason we stopped adopting was lack
    of bedroom space!
    
    Bonnie

    If everybody waited until they could afford children, nobody would
    have any.  There's an initial spike in the expenses, then it
    settles down for a while, and then starts to creep up continuously
    until they get out of college (if ever).  It doesn't have to be
    as expensive as some make it out to be.
    
    The MRDATA::PARENTING conference is full of valuable information
    and experience, as are friends with kids.  Don't listen to
    relatives, especially your parents.
    
    But let me say this - only you and your spouse can decide if you
    want to have children - don't let ANYONE else make this decision
    for you.  Don't have a child for any reason other than the two
    of you REALLY want one and can give it your love and care.  If
    the love is there, everything else will fall into place.
    
    Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and those who choose not
    to have children should not be criticized by anyone.  Indeed, they
    should be praised for sticking to their principles in face of the
    enormous pressure placed on couples by our society.
    
    			Steve - happy father of one

    
    I have one child who is 3.5 years old.  Now I'm getting the pressure of
    so...when are you going to have another one, can't have just one kid. 
    I never got the initial pressures because we ended up surprising
    everyone w/the first.
    
    I would say... just ignore...ignore...ignore.  Especially if she's not
    willing to help out.  
    
    As far as the affordablity of it....I was really lucky my young for her
    age grandmother (who is in her late 70's) volunteered to watch my daughter.
    It was wonderful no costs of daycare and a trusting environment.  When my
    daugher was around 15mths, I took her to daycare 3 days a week to give
    my grandmother a break, and to get her some "kid interaction".  The
    situation is currently the same.  My grandmother wouldn't have it
    any other way.  She loves having my daughter.  Maybe you could arrange
    a similar deal w/your mother if she's willing.  As soon as your child
    reaches 15mths the cost of daycare goes considerably down.
    

    

    I think kids are expensive.  I have one 17 yr. old daughter and I
    wouldn't trade her for anything, but I'm sure that if all the money my
    ex and I have spent on her in the past 18 yrs. were stacked in a pile
    it would add up to quite a bit.  I'd probably be able to afford a new
    car or a trip to Europe this summer, or both.  
    
    Her first prom is next month and I just spent $145. on the gown, and
    $50. on jewelry and accessories, and we still have the shoes to buy,
    plus something to stick in her hair.  That doesn't include the actual
    tickets for the prom or the pictures.  It's fun but it *is* expensive
    and there are other things that money could be spent on if I didn't
    have a kid.  I always wanted to have a daughter to do this type of
    thing with so I'm enjoying it, but I think it's naive to pretend kids
    aren't expensive.
    
    She wants to go to Boston College which costs more than I make in a
    year, but that's another story.  She's a straight A student and
    hopefully will be able to, at least, go to UMass or someplace.  I don't
    think it's fair to bring children into the world without planning to
    send them to college, in this day and age, or they'll just be doomed to
    poverty.
    
    I don't begrudge the money I've spent on Melissa but I'm glad she's the
    only child I have because I do like to have something for myself once
    in awhile.
    
    Lorna
    

If you do not have lotsa bucks and you have a bright hard working kid then
try to get them into one of the highest proiced colleges you can. The reason
is that these colleges almost never have to let a kid go because they can't
pay. They have souces of funds to cover that expense. But UMass for example
will throw you out in a minute because they don't have alternative resources.

Harvard college for eamples has millions and millions of dollars they invest
each year. Some of this money goes to grants and scholarships. UMass has
tuition and tax $ period.

    inre high priced colleges....
    
    well not exactly.... they count scholarships as part of their financial
    aid package and you end up still having to pay a hefty chunk. We have
    two sons in high priced schools and there are no special financial
    benefits that I've found.
    
    Bonnie

      This note responds to .31 (I think) I use batchnotes. This was the
      undecided who was getting parent etc pressure.
      
      I don't know where some of these replies are coming from.. But children
      are the single most expensive item you will ever commit yourself to.
      They are emotionally expensive, they are time expensive and they are $$
      -$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ expensive. Outside of partners being from
      different planets, they create the financial pressure, emotional 
      stresses which are the single most popular cause of relation breaking
      up. Worse than that, they justify couples staying together who really
      hate each other and would rather be at the other ends of the universe.
            They provide the religuous groups with a single reason to have
      sex. The peer pressure is therefore if you do not have children you are
      weird or doing something kinky. Or heaven forbid then sterile and
      therefore an incomplete person.
      Do not let anyone sucker you into believing that 3 can live as cheaply
      as 2.
	As our tiny world becomes more crowded the more people are asking
      themselves if they want to contribute to the 'lemming' effect. They
      should somehow be allowed to arrive at a no children decision without
      feeling in any way materialistic or inferior to those who have children.
	Two people can love and respect each other and stand a better chance
      of doing so for eternity without children. I respect those people who
      make their own decision and resist peer pressure.
	Rgds,
	Stephen
      ps.... I have 3 and would not have it any other way.
      pps... Don't fall for the argument that 'NOT all people are suitable to
      be parents'. It takes a quiet place, 2 people, common goal (usually
      nothing to do with children) and anything upwards of 30 seconds. Then
      you qualify. 
      

.41>  Stephen

.41>  I don't know where some of these replies are coming from.. But children
.41>  are the single most expensive item you will ever commit yourself to.
.41>  They are emotionally expensive, they are time expensive and they are $$
.41>  -$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ expensive.

.41>  Do not let anyone sucker you into believing that 3 can live as cheaply
.41>  as 2.

.41>  ps.... I have 3 and would not have it any other way.

So, if you had to do it all over again, would you opt to have children?  For
you, do the benefits of having children outweigh the expense?

re .40

I believe I was misunderstood. What I was trying to say was that children
are not tossed out of a high priced college if their finances change. For
example a friend of mine's income went from $30,000 to $12,000 over the
last three years. Her daughter entered a high priced college and they have 
not tossed her out as her (and her parents) situation changed. However,
I expect a state college c/would not have been able to make up the difference
and she would not have been able to re-enter. I also expect that her daughter 
(an excellant student) would have also been able to get her education only 
from a high priced college because there is no way she could have afforded
even state college.


SEGWAY >>>>>>>>>

I would also like to quote a lawyer regarding married and divorced parent's
responsibilities. He was on a talk show and was asked by a father if he was 
"required" to fund his son's college. The lawyer asked if he was married or
divorced. The lawyer went on to explain that if he were married the answer
was no but if he were divorced the answer was yes. I was divorced and when
my children reached age 18 (the age at which our agreement said child support
stopped) began to give the money directly to them. The state insisted the
money be remanded to their mother, increased, and continued until they
finish college or reached age 23.

    re .43, (segway) I think it's a terrible injustice that divorced
    parents can be legally forced to pay for college for their kids while
    married parents can't.  When I first heard about this, awhile ago, I
    couldn't believe it.  So unfair.
    
    Lorna
    

>Note 360.42                  Opting for no children                     42 of 43
>>
>>So, if you had to do it all over again, would you opt to have children?  For
>>you, do the benefits of having children outweigh the expense?
>>
      For me ... YES ... every time, I am entering my second 23 years of
      marriage. same person etc etc. Still very happy.. 3 out of 5 marriages
      end in the first 2 to 5 years. One walks through the park and sees the
      Sunday fathers.. If people did not talk about children before they got
      married then they should not be talking about them now. 
      A person should weigh up their biological desires, finances, and their
      resistance to Peer pressure. Also their resistance to stress. If peer
      pressure is the prime mover then I think that we have a Sunday father
      some 5 - 6 yeard down the road.
      Finance brings the greatest pressure on most relationships. remember
      that a BMW 750i is a cheaper ($$$) alternative to a child any day. Check
      loss of earnings, larger house, etc.. etc..
      There are too many peer pressure children in this world. 

    re: .42
    
          I like some of your rationales...
    
          It's not only peer pressure...it's simpler and more stupid
    than that.  It's usually, for most people of most countries of the 
    world, the only way an individual can assert "them"selves as either
    a man or a woman.  That is, it's a function of
    self-esteem...unfortunately, what they don't realize is that is 
    actually "false" esteem.  False esteem is esteem that we get from
    others.  Others tell us we are a "real woman" if we become a mother,
    or we are a "real man" if we have lots of children.  Further, the
    past plays an equally obnoxious reason for having children. 
    Justification comes in the form of society wanting soldiers to fight
    wars, families want enough children (traditionally, males) to 
    guarantee enough survivors to take care of the parent in their old
    age.  On and on and on...virtually all of these reasons, in the 
    modern world, indicate ignorance and unfortunate role-playing.
    Hormones, particularly for women, *do* play a part, but only for
    a particular time span (usually from age 25-35 or so.)  Once past
    the hormones, however, we all have only similar rationales left over.
        
    
    Frederick
     

    So, I see from most of your replies that most of you (thank you .41
    for being realistic!) believe money doesn't matter, you can work
    around it?  That was the response I was getting from friends and co-
    workers I had mentioned the expense to.   
    
    OK then, tell me... I'm not even thinking about when they want to go
    to college..I'm thinking about when they're only a few months
    old and they have to enter daycare, because if I don't work we can't
    pay rent!.  I've seen prices ranging from $75 to $150/week for daycare.  
    Do you just pull that money out of the air? That's anywhere from $300 
    to $600/month just to have someone watch your kid.  Right there is 
    where we say, "we can't do it" !  I'm sure we could do without some 
    of the few extras we have now, for food, diapers, clothes, but then 
    that expense, too ?!  We don't have relatives, a mother, sister, 
    mother-in-law..willing to provide free day care.   I liked the person
    who mentioned buying used furniture, etc....that's what we do NOW
    with 2, and pay low rent because the mortgage would be too high!
    
    Yes, we did discuss kids when we were going out. Of course we did.
    And we both LOVE kids, and I'd love to have my own.  But I can't see
    how it can be done without financially tearing us apart!
    
    Cheri
                                                              

    
    You need to sit down and figure out how much you have to spend and what
    you're spending it on. Then you need to decide what you have to do
    without. Yeah, sometimes its a real drag having to pay for daycare
    instead of concert tickets. Having a child (or two or three) changes
    your lifestyle. A child doesn't pop out and just fit in. You need to
    make changes and sacrifices in your life to accomodate the child. 
    Frankly, If you need to ask what it's worth to you to have kids you
    probably shouldn't be having them at all.
    

    
    Concert tickets? Don't make me laugh!  Not out of this pocket!  
    I guess I'm just in a different pay zone than the rest of you, or 
    something.  I wonder how many of you responding are living on a 
    secretaries salary?  I KNOW what some of you are making, and I'd
    have 5 kids if it were me!
    
    I'd love to have things to do without so I could have a child, but 
    the things that are left that could be done without are so limited they
    wouldn't make up the difference.  I guess I was trying to figure out
    how people on OUR income could afford it.... people who splurge and
    go out to eat - to McDonalds - brown bag lunch every day, drive used 
    cars instead of new, don't go to movies or sports events or concerts,
    get used furniture from relatives.....   these type of people.  I'm not
    talking about people who go out to eat where ever whenever, buy lunch
    or go out to lunch, no problem, have a new car every few years, go on
    luxurious trips and vacations, buy new clothes whenever, go out to the
    movies, concerts, ball games, go out for drinks, join health spas, 
    bowling clubs, etc. 
     
    I don't see where a minumum of $75 /week for daycare (and realistically 
    in our area, more like $100+), plus food, diapers, etc, can be pulled 
    from.  If I could find it tucked away somewhere, I wouldn't hesitate, 
    I'd love our own child.   I guess the point I was and am trying to make 
    is, there ARE those for whom it is NOT financially possible.  If it
    weren't for the daycare issue, I'm sure we COULD find a way.  Maybe 
    someday our big break (?!) will come...mom, hurry up and retire!   
    

Not to be callous or anything, but if you make so little money,
rendering Daycare expenses too much, why dont you have your baby, quit your job,
setup babysitting other kids in your home while you stay home, and if that
doesnt make ends meet, why dont you get a parttime job at night after the
little kiddos go home. ??

that is how alot of young, low-income people have children.

You sound like you really want kids but you keep telling  yourself its not
possible with TODAYs state of financial affairs. Well, change TODAYs state.

my 2cents.
-nancy
ps. and if you dont think ive been there, I have.

    re .49, well, frankly, I don't think you can afford to have children,
    unless perhaps you are willing to do what .50 suggests and start a
    daycare center yourself.  That way you can take care of your child
    while you watch other people's kids for pay. 
    
    Otherwise, it sounds as though you would really suffer deprivations in
    order to have a child.  The only reason that my ex and I could afford
    to have our daughter without suffering unduly, and giving up extra, fun
    activities entirely, was because my mother was willing and able to
    babysit for free while I worked.  I hate to think of the lean years we
    would have gone through if she hadn't offered to do that for us.
    
    The days are gone when one blue-collar workers pay could support a wife
    and kids, like it could from approx. 1945-1967ish.  The economy is
    screwed up and a lot of people are suffering from it.  Not being able
    to afford to have kids is one of the ways.
    
    Lorna
    

    You learn to ECONOMIZE!... Hey MacDonalds is OUT... I can fead a
    familey of three on 1 lb. of hamburger for two days.
    
    You learn to make your shopping trips and everything at ONE time...
    
    Gas is expensive... consolidate all the trips into one trip per week.
    
    You never buy anything you DON'T need....
    
    You buy repari manuals for your car so you can do most of the
    maintenance yourself....
    
    You check the prices on EVERYTHING you buy to see if you're getting a
    good deal on the 6 oz. can or a better deal on the 12 oz can.  You stop
    buying name-brands unless its proven to be significantly better then
    the generic or store brand of material.
    
    You give up colored extra soft bathroom tissue because white two ply 
    tissue is cheaper.
    
    You go to the second hand store to buy work shirts instead of buying 
    them brand new.
    
    You search want adds for anything and everything you want to see if you
    can get it used... cheaper 
    
    You learn to do a lot of things yourself because the pro's cost $$$$
    
    You learn to do it from secondhand books bought at the second hand
    store.
    
    Starting to get the idea?????
    
    You learn to sew your clothes when they get ripped to make them last 
    longer.... I can go on and on and on.
    
    Skip

    re 52, who the heck wants to live like that?  Personally, I'd rather
    have no kids than have to live that way. But, each to their own.
    
    Lorna
    

re: 360.53                  Opting for no children                     53 of 53


    This is a response to the concept that children cost so much money
    that people just can't afford to have them.
    
    My coments which follow are based on facts as I know them to be true.
    
    1 -  Needing a job is a fallacy
    2 - Affording children is also a fallacy
    3 - Children can be an income producing pasttime in the State
       of Massachusetts.
    
    
    I *personally* know of two women, who have no jobs, no husbands,
    are unsure of who the childrens fathers are, and have 2 and 3
    children each.
    
    Neither has healthcare, as we understand it (it is free).
    
    Being unmarried single parents, they are entitled to a free
    College Education at the States expense.
    
    Both have lived in Hotels, Motels, and Apartments provided by the
    State of Massachusetts, as is all their medical care.
    
    Their children are "entitled" two brand new clothes three times a
    year (Easter - spring, Fall - school, and Christmas).
    
    The problem with most of us, is that we think we need to hold jobs,
    be responsible for ourselves, and in so doing we shoot ourselves in
    the foots and are deprived of all this free stuff. ;^)
    
    However, though I close with a smile, the above comments are 100% 
    truem if living in Eastern Massachusetts ...
    
    -Bob 
    
    

    Re-2,
    
    I've lived that way for about 6 years now..... I've no regrets or
    complaints.  I do just fine by managing my time and money.  I even 
    manage to be able to afford a 4 week vacation once every two years.
    
    The secret to being able to afford a child one or a dozen is simply
    watching your $$$.  Also remember that it's a tax deduction as a
    dependend which gives you a little extra in the pay check.
    
    SKip

TARKIN::VAILLANCOURT

853.92> I have two tattoos, and although I won't get any more I will be
853.92> adding to the two I already have.  I have a rose on the back of
853.92> my right shoulder.  My first.  I got it 2 years ago.  A year ago
853.92> I added my husbands name to a ribbon through the rose a year ago.
    
853.92> Tatooing is painful. Very. And expensive.  In the three years we've
853.92> been going to this shop I've seen prices increase drastically.
    
853.92> I see people staring at my ankle.  I can tell from their expressions
853.92> what they're thinking. Some people can't imagine why I have a tattoo.
853.92> But you know what, I don't CARE what they think!  I have tattoos
853.92> because I want them !

360.49> Concert tickets? Don't make me laugh!  Not out of this pocket!  
    
360.49> I'd love to have things to do without so I could have a child, but 
360.49> the things that are left that could be done without are so limited they
360.49> wouldn't make up the difference.  I guess I was trying to figure out
360.49> how people on OUR income could afford it....

360.49> I guess the point I was and am trying to make is, there ARE those for
360.49> whom it is NOT financially possible.

We have children because we want them!  I guess in a way, children are like 
tattoos...  A lot of pain up front but enjoyment for the rest of your life or if
you decide you no longer want them the scars may be very deep...

My question to TARKIN::VAILLANCOURT is: If you decide to eventually have 
children, will you be able to afford to have their names tattooed upon you?

    There are places that you can get a sliding scale fee. Call the child-
    care connection. Digital has an account with them. They can help you
    out in finding child care.
    I think that you should consider all your options and then decide how
    to pay for your child care. I've paid my dues. I have four of them. My
    youngest is in second grade now and it's behind me now. It felt like
    the biggest weigth lifted. I might add that for part of the time I was
    paying child support I was a single mom and NO child support. I made it
    You can do it too. Just look around. 

    I think what it all boils down to is that if you REALLY want the
    children, you'll find the finances you'll need.  It means sacrificing 
    your current lifestyle and looking around for the best deals.  Sitting 
    down and looking real HARD at your current money situation and figuring 
    out where you can cut back, save money, and even make money.  (I used 
    to have a garage sale every two months to sell off what ever I could 
    from broken toys to out grown clothing to odds and ends that I would
    sometimes accumulate thinking I had to have them and then discovering 
    I didn't).  Try and market any hobby interests you have and turn a
    little extra cash from it.  
    
    In other words, there are ways.  You'll find them, IF you really are 
    SERIOUS about having a child.  
    
    SKip