Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I have stopped telling my wife "Gee dear, you look really nice today..."
    because she seriously reasponded with "...and I didn't look good
    yesterday?".
    
    Wish I could understand it.........
    
    Bob

*Very* interesting, Nancy...

...

One problem that I've allways had is that I try hard to be understanding, and
not blow a fuse when I don't get my way...  The problem is when the other party
translates that into meaning that I don't care...  Either I don't care about
her, or I don't care about something that *really* is important to me, but I
realize that there will be another time to try again...

Along the same lines as 'I don't care about her...'  If I'm understanding
about her not calling me, somehow she thinks that it was not important to
me that she didn't call me.

In theory, if you really love/are in love with some woman, you're not supposed
to let anything stand between you and the 'object of your affections', even if
she doesn't want you, you're supposed to 'win her love' as in classical
literature.  In practice I don't want to waste a lot of time being upset about
it if it's not going to change anything... 

The only other reasons I can think of for women prefering jerks (not that I
believe in them) are that women like to be victims; that why they can blame
others for thier lives, rather then themselves; it's almost a form of
hypochondriacism... 

Sometimes I think that women prefer the flashy slime to good solid honest
people...  They go for the impression, and the muscles, and sports cars (maybe
they have not out grown high school :-))  They want the glamour, even if
they *know* it's fake...

Maybe sometimes women prefer lies...  Seems like I've heard a few songs along
those lines...

In Contrast, perhaps men don't expect so much of the same things from women,
so there is no corresponding problem...

Jim.

    Good topic, and worthy of talk, thought, etc.
    
    I'm just going to address the "why do women throw themselves at
    total jerks?  Is it a challenge?" part of this.  From my own
    experience, it was a question of self-esteem.  Looking back on a
    really disasterous and damaging relationship, I can now understand
    why I got into it, and stayed in it for so long.  I felt so low
    about myself and what I had to offer that I picked out someone who
    had the potential to really make me suffer.  And I did.  Yes, it
    was a challenge at first--he seemed to *need* so much, and touched
    in my foolish-maternal-female heart, I responded by trying to be
    a buffer for him against the big, bad world.  When he hurt, I hurt
    more, and so on.  IT wasn't until I realized I was feeling bad all
    the time--EVERY day--and wondering why, that I opened my eyes. 
    The problem wasn't me and my ability to cope, it really WAS him.
    He and his troubles had become a bad habit with me, and like any
    habit, was hard to break.  Even the love I had felt for him way
    back in the beginning had long gone, crushed under the unending
    needs he had, that I tried to fulfill.  Believe me, this situation
    is a no-win one.  The stronger you are, and the more you have to
    give, the more drained you become.  I finally just gave up.  It
    was hard at first, but soon after I realized how free and light
    I felt!  No one's problems but mine to worry about!
    
    Now I know it was ego on my part to try and fix up this person's
    life for him.  I now have the self-confidence and esteem to live
    my life fully, and yet share a sharing and loving (and EQUAL)
    relationship with another person.  
    
    I know I've gone on and on, but this entry touched a chord with
    me.  I have found, in my life anyhow, that the best way to go with
    another person is to try to be honest with yourself, and know yourself
    well enough to see what you can live with.  The old Serenity Prayer
    fits well here:
    
    "God grant me the courage to change those things I can,
    The grace to accept what I cannot change,
    And the wisdom to know the difference."
    
    Good luck in your findings,
    
    Jane

    I've read that the "challenge" aspect is significant - some women
    delight in thinking about how THEY can tame this wild character.
    Sooner or later they realize that the man's basic nature can't be
    changed, and they leave - if they can.
    
    I admit to having been puzzled by this phenomenon for a long time.
    When I was in college, it sure did seem that the jerks got the
    girls, especially if the jerk treated her like dirt.  I suppose
    to most women I was boring.  Another thought might be that the
    "not nice" men are the ones who draw attention to themselves,
    while the rest have to be dug out.  (The same holds true for women,
    by the way.  It's quite easy to find "jerk women" - locating a
    warm and caring woman is MUCH harder.)
    
    As for the questions on why women get angry at men for things they
    haven't done - this is a symptom of the elaborate fantasy that
    women (and men) build up as to how they think a relationship
    should be.  When they finally see that reality doesn't match
    fantasy, disillusionment sets in.
    

    
    "Wise Women, Foolish Choices" was written by two male psychologists
    (sorry, don't remember their names either).  Basically, the book
    suggests that women forget about the flashy jerks and concentrate
    their efforts on the guys that are usually overlooked and that's
    where women will find the true gems.  Pretty interesting stuff;
    it's amazing how true it really is.  I read this book and I was
    explaining it to my friends to get their opinions on it and that's
    sort of how I got involved with this topic.  I'll try to find out
    who the authors are.  Most of the books out on the market today
    relating to this subject are written by women so it's always nice
    to get a man's insight on things.
     
    RE:  .2
    
    Jim, Thanks for your input.  That's exactly what I'm looking for!
    

    "Too nice" - eeeesh. Like a dagger. Well, when the "you're too nice
    line" appears it usually indicates that I have been smothering the
    person I am involved with. 
    
    The best thing to do is just be nice enough so as to keep them coming
    back for more!
    
    Mike

	Maybe some women want an element of danger in their
	relationships.  Or an element of uncertainty.

	The danger angle could have some sociobiological
	roots: "if my man doesn't act rude, crude, and
	dangerous, then he probably won't be able to defend
	our family when the barabarians come over the walls"
	etc. etc.

	The not liking certainty or security could just be
	a way of avoiding boredom for women who haven't
	developed a lot of other resources (intellectual
	pursuits, etc.).  Ever since i was about 18 i've
	tended to get the creepy-crawlies around women for
	whom "The Relationship" is the (almost) sole topic
	of conversation 24 hours a day.

	As far as one of the last coupla replies goes, if
	you're a very affectionate guy, you can be viewed
	as "smothering" for behavior that would not be so
	judged in a woman: it just runs so counter to our
	"male stereotype".  (Although any relationship
	where one partner is much more affectionate than
	the other is probably going to develop lotsa strains.)

    Another angle to this may be that it is the "jerks" that
    are attracted to the "nice women".  Sometimes guys 
    will deliberately choose someone they can take advantage of.
    And, at the beginning of any relationship, no one acts like a 
    "jerk".
    
    The woman is then already involved in the relation ship and 
    put in the position of bending over backwards
    to be sure that she is "being fair", and "not misunderstanding him".
    If she is a fair and understanding person to begin with, she will
    work harder at being sure of what she is doing before she ends the
    relationship.  
    

    I've always wondered about this, too, but in our culture, it's a
    romantic stereotype that women grow up with.  Novels (especially
    those terrible pulp romances), movies, TV, all show women being
    treated badly by men and falling in love with them.  Then the guy
    turns out to be a "rough diamond".
    
    It's not usually like that in the real world -- someone who acts
    like a jerk usually IS a jerk, in my experience.  And even if he/she
    is a "nice guy" underneath it all, it is rarely worth my time to
    dig through the layers of bad behavior.  I like people who not only
    are nice, but act nice.
    
    The only time I've complained about someone being "too nice" (male
    or female) it was when that person was being a doormat and allowing
    others to take advantage of them.  If someone acts like a victim,
    and I don't victimize them, they are often surprised, because that's
    the only way they know how to relate to people.
    
    Gloria

    I agree with .5, that this works both ways.  All through my life
    I've known nice men who seem to continually be attracted to women
    who turn out to be domineering, demanding, bitches.  I've sometimes
    found myself wondering why a particular man couldn't be attracted
    to *me* instead of the selfish, bitchy woman he is attracted to
    - since I felt *I* would appreciate him.
    
    Maybe part of the problem is the shallowness of the criteria that
    many people (both men & women) use to pick their romantic partners.
     Such criteria as good looks, sharp dresser, great dancer, smiles
    constantly, and has a million friends to party with at any given
    moment are not necessarily the best ways to judge whether a person
    is going to be a warm, loving, caring SO.  Unfortunately the qualities
    I mentioned previously are a lot easier to spot and be drawn to
    than a kind heart.
    
    It seems to me that all the men I've ever met who have been both
    extremely nice people and extremely attractive men have been "taken".
     That leaves us with a lot of initially attractive "jerks" and rather
    bland, boring nice people (don't be offended - I'm apparently one
    of them from the male perspective).  All we can do is keep looking
    for the best compromise, I guess, and sometimes, looking for a little
    entertainment in life, we wind up with a jerk.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .13
    
    Lorna, I've never met you in person, but of all the adjectives
    I'd choose to describe what I know of you, "bland and boring"
    are not among them!  (This is not meant as criticism!)  I have
    it on good authority that, in person, you are attractive,
    interesting and fun.
    
    In any event, there are many warm, caring and "nice" men who are
    not taken - several of my friends would qualify.  But, as I
    suggested in .5, these men are not as visible as others, you have
    to go looking - they're not likely to hang around in bars, etc.
    
    It is not necessary to compromise, though that's what most people
    end up doing (and that's a good topic for a new base note!)
    Somewhere out there is someone who is "the best" for you - not
    a compromise.  If you lose hope, you'll never find him (or her).
    Keep your eyes, and heart, open, and someday you'll get a big
    surprise!
    					Steve

    
    re -1
    
    > I have it on good authority that, in person, you are attractive,
    > intresting, and fun.
    
      I second that motion.
    
     Peter

    This problem isn't limited to women and the men then pick.  I notice
    that a lot of men aren't very interested in the "plain Jane" types
    either.  There are a lot of very interesting, funny and fun, but
    maybe a bit something (overweight, too short, too tall, etc.) women
    out there.  But the ones the men go for are the flashy types.  
    
    Sally
    

    Mary makes a good point in .10, some  "jerks" who actively seek out 
    and court women, can be very flattering and charming. It can take
    a while for a woman to realize just what kind of person the guy
    really is. By then she may well be deeply involved emotionally and
    want to try her best to save what is possibly an unsavable situation.
    Thinking back on one such man I knew in my college years I think
    I am very fortunate that he broke up with me - although I sure didn't
    think so at the time!

A couple of years ago I got burnt by being too much of a "nice guy".
I had been going out with my girlfriend for a couple of years, and
I thought things were pretty serious.  She only had one real problem
in my eyes, and that was that she was rather insensitive and selfish.
But we got along so much better than anyone else I'd ever met, and
things were so good otherwise that I let it go.  Whenever we had a
disagreement about what to do, I would end up giving in and we would
do what she wanted.  I figured, "Big deal, it's not the end of the
world if I don't get my way, and she's happy".  This was a big mistake.
Over time she seemed to come to EXPECT that she could get her way and
I would acquiesce.  And as our relationship came to be more and more
on her terms, it chipped away at my self-esteem.  I needed her to make
me whole.

Looking back on it, when things finally fell apart, I'm embarrassed to
admit that I could hardly blame her.  I was little more than a sniveling
idiot.  And naturally I thought my life was over.  It took a while to
see what had probably been painfully obvious to everybody else: that by
being so willing to sacrifice myself for the one that I loved, I had
given it all, had used it all up.  And who wants an empty container?

As much as it sucked at the time, I have to say I learned a lot from it.
I still try to be a "nice guy" 'cuz that's the way I think people ought
to be, but now I know that kindness and caring *has to be* a two-way
street *at every level*, from total strangers to long-married couples.
I'm not saying that the "traffic" has always got to be equal, just as
long as it averages out pretty close.  But if you find yourself on a
one-way street, let me tell you if you go far enough it can take a long
time to find your way back.

Carl

P.S.  She dropped me for this guy who had a history of treating women
like dirt.  I asked her, and she said she thought it would be different
for her.  He treated her like dirt.  She followed him around.  He
dumped her.  Heh heh... oops!  :-) :-) ;-)

RE: .16

True, it's not limited to women...  men do it too, but not all men...

I enjoy getting to know people, finding those 'uncut gems'...  and yes, a
lot of times other people have told me that I was getting stomped on, or
used, but I rarely felt it so...

RE: .19

Wow!  There's a lot in that note!

Jim.

    
    Let me start off by apologizing in advance.  This really touches
    a nerve with me.  If I wan't coming down with Captain Trips, I might
    go on about it for days.
    
    I first noticed the phenomenon described in the base note in high
    school, after being unloaded rather uncermoniously by my first
    girlfriend.  At first, I subscribed to the "women are saying one
    thing and dating the opposite".  Oh well.  What else was new.  Women
    were just people, and at that point in my life I wasn't too hot
    on people in general.
    
    I expected this trend to change in college, and it didn't.  I was
    amazed.  But I did a lot of growing up in college, so I began to
    subscribe to the theory that maybe my perceptions were clouded by
    the fact I was alone.
    
    Then a friend of mine got into a relationship with a woman who was
    trying to shed herself of her current boyfriend, who was going to be
    away from school for a bit.  He was a prize vermin, and some of the
    things she told us about him did nothing to improve our opinion.  My
    friend was kind and gentle and understanding and all that other stuff
    women were professing to be looking for.
    
    Twenty-four hours after the vermin was in the city, my friend got
    handed his pink slip, and took a couple of knives in the back besides.
    It was nothing short of awful.
    
    As for my part, I've made attempts to get relationships started,
    usually to get the, "Well, you're a good friend, but..." line. 
    These same females will later come to me saying that some jerk they
    unearthed somewhere has cut them to the quick.  And I try to help
    them, but it's hard.  The urge to say, "I told you so!" is very
    strong.
    
    Time to go take some medicine.  Maybe I'll say more when my head
    clears.
    
    DFW

    Re .21, but *men* do this to *women*, too!  People do this to people!
    
    I feel I've played all these roles at least once - some more than
    once.
    
    Lorna
    

    I heard the line "You need some nicer than me, someone....." more
    than once. My first love fed this to me when we split up and
    she turned around and married this big sholdered pretty boy
    that fit every girls vision of the perfect man.
    Last time i saw her she had a black eye he had given her. 
    When i asked her why she dident divorce him she told me
    "but, i love him and he loves me" BULL$#!T was my reply.
    I had know this girl for 12 years 7 of which we dated
    and i never thought I would see her take that type of
    treatment and belive it was love. I would have never treated
     her that way I cared too much.
    
    I have finished last more than once for being a "nice guy".
    My problem here is I wouldent have the first idea how
    to change and probably wouldent be able to live with myself if
    I did change. My question is how do the guys that always get
    overlooked change it? I dont want to hear stay the way you are and
    someday the right girl will come along. I thought I married someone
    that wanted a nice guy that would treat her nice,ect. It ended up
    she wanted someone different.
    
    Now I'm no bulldog and dont have a hard time getting dates it is
    keeping them that is hard. I'm usally told they dont deserve me.
    I dont understand what causes this but I am tired of it.
    
    -j
    

    I know the feeling (.23)... seeming to be too nice, not knowing
    how to change, eventually seeming a bit ineffectual or oppressive.
    I don't have evidence of a working solution yet (in the form of
    a delivered n-year marriage), but suspect:
    
    1.  Can't change yourself, other than in the areas of (slow)
    generalised personal growth.  Certainly can't change fast enough to
    react to the "nice guy/bad guy" perception, and shouldn't even try
    (being true to yourself, etc). 
    
    2.	Maybe need to monitor and manage the dynamics of the relationship,
    quite carefully (and here I don't always do so well).   "Being too
    nice" can maybe come from doing too many nice things, without your
    partner having the time/inclination (she's maybe suspicious or
    pre-occupied) to respond in kind, at the same rate. 
    
    Risk: overloading the relationship with one-way "niceness". 
    
    Possible cure:  withholding "niceness" without actually contributing
    compensating "nastiness"... just keeping a little aloof and cool
    sometimes, until your partner gets round to responding. 
    
    Control check:  If she doesn't respond, in time, maybe discuss it (to
    see if you're under-estimating the basis of her suspicions etc in
    checking her response), then get out if you don't get good reasons for
    staying. 

    This make sense to anybody?

    It makes sense to me; I can remember once dating a really nice guy
    that I liked a lot, but he smothered me to death with niceness,
    compliments, attention, everything!  It was like being forcefed
    candy -- it may be sweet, but too much of a good thing is a bad
    thing.
    
    And I remember doing the same thing in relationships where I was
    trying to win someone over.  It's very easy to overcompensate when
    you aren't sure how the other person feels about you.
    

    
    First of all, thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic.
    Wow!  Looks like I opened up a real Pandora's Box!
    
    RE:  .24
    
         You're on the right track with that advice!!!  I think it would
    definitely work.  Based on the fact that women are intrigued by
    men who are challenging, one who holds back his "niceness" a bit,
    without being nasty, will certainly attract women.  Never lay it
    all on the line at first - you've got to keep an aura of mystery
    about yourself in order for women to be interested and want to
    continue the relationship.  Otherwise, women will think that they've
    got you all figured out and can wrap you around their little fingers.
    Women will get bored with relationships unless you hold back and
    just hint at something exciting to look forward to.
    
    Yes, I know this sounds dumb and it's like playing games.  But,
    just think of it as trying to maintain some sparks in your
    relationships.
    

    One thing about the men that people have been calling "jerks"
    in this context - most of them have mastered the art of courting
    a woman and making her feel special in the early parts of a
    relationship. Perhaps the "nice guys" need to adopt some of
    this intensity and romance without giving up on their basic
    niceness? 

    Re: .27
    
    Yes, this is a good thought.  "Nice" does not have to exclude
    "romantic".  I've noticed that I've been most successful at
    getting a relationship to keep going when I was pleasant, appreciative,
    but not pushy.  When I WAS pushy, things got difficult very quickly.
    
    					Steve

    Looks as if Iam getting into this a bit late, but then again Ive
    had a problem or three with my pro 350.
    
    Oh boy does this subject ring true enough to send vibrations up
    and down my spine. As others have said been down this road a few
    times. It almost makes you wonder if it pays to be a nice person,
    that applys to both men and women. The old gag of nice guys finish
    last comes to mind in a couple of instances.
    
    IE  Went with a woman that had been dumped on by every guy she went
    out with. She was really a good person herself and good old MR nice
    guy me figured well Ill show her that not all the male populous
    are a bunch of creeps. As it turned out she was so conditioned to
    being with bad people, that after a wile if you didn't do some thing
    to screw the relationship up, she did. I found this out from some
    of her friends afterwards.
    
    The latest case was the lady that I spent almost four years with.
    She had a lot of insecurities about herself and us. I went through
    a lot of rough times with her as she grew out of it and hung in
    there because I believed in us. Well she left me for this truck
    driver that didn't even get her something for her birthday and did
    not want to spend XMAS with her. (as a side note these things are
    of an extreme importance to her). Yet she is now moving in with
    this guy. Her reasoning is that she can grow and teach this guy
    (note, teach= try to change) that they can be happy together.
    
    Along similar lines I wrote note 118, balance in a relationship
    over in WOMANNOTES that was along these very lines. When you first
    get to know someone or even down stream how do you balance things
    out between "aggressive" vs "nice guy" behavior. From the responses
    here Iam not alone in these feelings. A good example somewhere else
    in this file was an example from Ian Philpott about the lady who
    returned his ring because he wasent aggressive enough.
    
    To put it mildly it can be very perplexing sometimes. I seem to
    be a case of history repeating it self in that Ive become involved
    with women that need help in one way or another and when they have
    gotten through the problem they say thanks and move on.
    
    As another side note of point Ive have also meet Lorna in person
    and am in consensus with the others that she is an attractive lady.
    
                               Bob B

    OK folks.  Here's one from a (sometimes) lady who discontinued
    a relationship with someone who was too nice.  I've got a real
    temper, at times.  I actually ENJOY a good verbal fight, clearing
    the air, etc.  This guy cringed if I raised my voice, agreed with
    my whims, didn't get the least bit bent out of shape - I started
    taking advantage of him right and left.  I'm a very stubborn 
    person, and I was getting my way all the time.  SO, I found
    someone with a little more backbone, and we're much more
    balanced.  In fact, sometimes he out-stubborns me!  And he's not
    a jerk, although he *is* somewhat less into the romantic gestures
    than the other fellow.  He's not, lest someone get the wrong idea,
    the type to blacken my eyes.
    
    Re: a previous note:  The bamboo may last longer, but it tends
    to smother everything around.  And it's all too tenacious.  The
    stuff even comes up through asphalt!
    
    --Louise

    RE .31
    
     Well Ill tell you, Ive come to a conclusion after thinking about
     the hows and whys of it all. I now shy away from these type 
     ( need help ) women and am open to meeting the ones that some
     one else helped straighten out and now has her act together. 
    
     Ill be a friend to those that need help, but I will adviod 
     becoming involved with them. You say just trade em in for another
    that needs help. no thanks, it is much too much an emotional drain.
    Its like the old gag that you had to be there to understand it.
    Relationships on an even basis can be hard enough at times to
    keep going in the right direction with out the added complexity.
    
                               Bob B 
    

    	Ok. Let's see. Why is it that the nice ones always finish last? Well
	there is some basic reasoning that should be explored. First, let's
	think about what dictates our taste in the opposite sex. We as a society
	are constaintly bombarded with images of Mr. Rights and Ms. Rights
	who have exciting jobs, great looks, are socially exciting etc. This is
	possibly a direct result of mass media.. ( no I'm not suggesting we
	invoke sensorship ) deciding what is considered acceptable and what is
	not. I'm not saying this is something that is wrong... after all if
	mass media was to turn its watchful eye toward Joe Schmoe ( the name has
	been changed to protect the innocent ) and cover his daily routine of
	working in an average job, living an average lifestyle, etc, you would
	probably end up putting People magazine out of business! Let's face it
	though ever since grade school we've been taught that average was
	bad. How many times did you receive a grade that was average "C" and
	your teacher exclaimed, " Oh Sally! You've been so average that I am 
	going to give you this star on your forehead!"( I never quite understood
	why teachers did the star thing anyway.. ). No, I'm afraid the spoils
	of the universe always seemed to go to the ones who were above average
	or excellent. This concept extends all the way from the clothes we 
	choose, to the friends we pick, to the mates ( I know that is a terrible
	word but I wanted to cover everything from casual lover to spouse 
	without mentioning them all ) we seek.  With that wonderful lust for 
	excellence engraved in our psyche ( thanks teach! ) we go on to bigger
	and better things in life.  We shift modes to high school.. ok we're in
	our awkward years (even the word awkward looks weird!) we start
	to broaden our circle of friends... experiment with different things
	(this might sound like I am hinting about drugs and/or sex, but I mean 
	life in general... hell, our music was different, our clothes were 
	different etc.. ).  We become influenced by our peers... ( you remember
	our teachers warning us about that infamous black cloud PEER PRESSURE! )
	And of course you all remember how there were three types of creatures
	roaming the hallowed corridors. The first type was the goodie-two-shoes
	were considered to be "pets". They were boring!  I mean imagine choosing
	doing homework over some great party. Yuk! Then there were those cool
	dudes who were constantly giving the teacher a hard time  (and we know
	that those teachers really deserved it too! I mean what right did they 
	have telling us what to do.. didn't they know we weren't kids anymore!).
	They were hip cats (I know... a term well out dated) who were always out
	having fun.  No boring people there, huh? And last but not least there
	were the 'tweeners ( I kinda made this word up ) who could bop back and
	forth between groups without anyone really noticing. Sort of chameleons
	under the skin. Now, we can all think back and remember how we used to
	treat the smartest kid in the class.. ( if you were that kid then you
	can remember how you were treated ). We also remember that poor soul
	who would break out at the mention of the word Chocolate... ( I think
	we called her pizza face ... our sensitivity was touching wasn't it? )
	Or how 'bout that quiet and shy guy that no one could quite get a handle
	on... so we left him alone. ( Which is probably why he was quiet and shy
	in the first place).  Well, in this wonder called high school we managed
	to start dating (nowadays they ask for phone numbers in the maturnity
	ward ... unfortunately the number "googoodada" is unlisted ) and if
	you think back you'll recall that it was the select few.. the elite 
	sorta speak, who managed to constantly be dating... 
	(this may be distorted a bit since I'm a guy and high school girls
	don't want to go out with you until your a senior...I think this was
	so they could say they were going out with "an older man" ) and what 
	was the basis for that dating... well, sometimes because there was
	status to be gained (... "oh and she is a cheerleader..." or "and he is
	first string Quarterback..." etc ) or there is transportation to be
	gained ( " he has the coolest car to be seen in... " ) or some sort of 
	exciting potential... ( " she is really hot "... I appologize to any 
	women who might be offended by that last remark ).  And that is what we
	were faced with on a daily basis for 3-4 years of our lives. It's a 
	wonder that we survived with some sanity! So now we are thoroughly 
	programmed with the following:

			A) Must be above average looking because if they
			aren't then they don't deserve the better things in life
			and if they don't deserve the better things in life
			then they don't deserve me.
			B) Must be above average in status because I don't
			want people to think I go out with someone of
			less stature than myself.. goodness!
			C) Must be above average in excitement because I don't 
			want to be bored with this person. 
			D) ( And last but not least ) the male has to be older
			than the female because... well just because.. ( I
			must admit that this is starting to wearoff nowadays
			but this is probably because it's so chic for women
			to go out with younger guys... )

	Then if we are lucky enough to attend college, we take these ideas
	and search the lounges and classroom ( and bars and clubs and gyms
	etc. ) look for "the one". Some people found the right person and those
	people "settled" right after college. ( I think that it is a mistake
	to do something like that since the next year is the craziest in your
	life because of all the changes both externally and internally)
	but most end up with the same thing we started with when they began
	college, ourselves. 
	 
 	So now were up to real life and, of course we all know the rest.
	Weekends are for looking and weekdays are for working. 

	But what about the matter at hand?, What about too much Niceness?
	Well... What is it that we really object to in the people who are
	labeled too nice... The way I see it.. (being a reformed 'nicee'..though
	I'm still nice to those who want me to be that way..) people want to
	maintain a certain amount of seperation , they want to distiguish 
	between when they are an "us" and when they are a "me".  I know I'm
	not being real clear here... let me try and explain... person X is 
	seeing person Y... person X truly likes person Y... Y feels the same
	way... sometimes Y does things that really upsets X... sometimes X
	does things that really upsets Y... but because X wants to stay with
	Y and Y wants to stay with X the relationship continues. Now person X
	and person Y both feel inside that one day they will meet person Z 
	(for ease of understanding Z is Mr. or Ms. Right) and believes they
	will fall madly head over heels and all those wonderful things...
	So both parties feel that it is good to have those "bad times" so that
	if either ever feel the need to walk away.. they are sure to get the
	opportunity to do so because.. after all.. person (X or Y) is "always
	doing something to drive me crazy".  It is a perfect relationship in the
	sense that the emotional level allows an easy way out when the need
	arises.  When X is with Y they are an "US" but when X and Y are seperate
	they are a "ME".  I'm not saying that people in relationship (good one)
	are always "US"s... the difference is that they are two "ME"s who enjoy
	being "ME" together just as much as they enjoy being "US" or when they
	are being "ME"s alone.. ( does anyone understand that... if so would you
	please explain it cause I'm lost...) 
	
	Soooooo now we come along to the nicees... they don't quite understand
	all of these little intricate details. They feel being nice shows
	you care... or that it promotes reciprocation...etc.  To them being nice
	is just that... it isn't perceived as smothering.. ( which it can be...)
	or invading the other person's space ( no I'm not from california ). To
	them it is just natural way of life. A normal routine... get up, eat
	breakfast, brush teeth, be nice to everyone, etc... ( like I said I'm
	a reformed nicee... I used to be nice anywhere from 20 to 30 times a 
	day... now I'm down to 8-10 times a week... and I feel great.) But
	let us not cast these poor creatures out from the garden of Eden... most
	of these people are intelligent human beings who only crave the loving
	and caring that can be found in a legitimate relationship. If one thinks
	for a moment.. we can take the fact that they're only trying to be nice
	and if we tell them what it is perceived as ( though they certainly
	won't comprehend it..at first ) and that we think it would be even nicer
	if they weren't so "nice" ( notice how we are playing on their instincts
	here)... I guess it boils down to that ugly word " COMMUNICATION ". How
	in God's name is anyone ever going to know what it is they are doing 
	wrong unless someone tells them? If you find yourself with someone who
	is being too nice ... try saying " Hey.. I know you care about me and
	I care about you... but, seriously, try not to be there all the time
	and maybe I'll appreciate it more when you are."  Or at least something
	to that effect.  After a few dozen times we get the picture.  Well this
	started out to be a short reply and it has become a monster. If I have
	offended someone... well too bad ( sort of therapy for ex-nicees to
	say stuff like that.)  Remember if you have a nicee that you know
	giv'em a break... tell them what's on your mind... they'll listen.

								Rz

I definitely have to agree that too much of anything is no good.  HOWEVER...


Speaking as a self-proclaimed "nice guy", and having spoken with other "nice
guys", I'm not sure I can buy all that's being sold here.  I mean, where do
you draw the line between "just the right amount of niceness" and "he's being
too nice"???  Everyone's different, so it seems to me that it depends on the
people involved.  Looking for hard and fast solutions when dealing with ques-
tions about people is crazy!  There aren't any!


Also, to follow the guideline that would seem to suggest that I shouldn't
compliment someone if that's how I really feel is no good for me.  I like
to be myself, and let others decide if they like that person.  It's true,
I do like to be "nice", with most of the various things people have attached
to that word in this note, but I don't _remember_ having smothered anyone.
I happen to know that there _are_ ladies who like gentleman, the old-
fashioned type.  I can't see any reason to change something like that to
try and attract women that I probably wouldn't get along with anyway!


Mystery doesn't do much for me either.  I much prefer openness and communi-
cation.  And _any_ woman who thinks she's got me all figured out had better
think again!  ;-)   Heck, I can't even figure myself out all the time!!!   ;-)
As for wrapping around fingers; well, that's something that comes from me,
right?  It only happens if _I_ allow it, and you can be darned sure I'm careful
about who has such power!!  I believe in being as flexible as possible, but
there are a few things I don't think I'll ever compromise on -- it would mean
compromising myself, which is something I don't think anyone should do.


Finally, I guess my thoughts are to be who/what you are.  If you are smothering
people, then you should probably try to change that but on the other hand I
_don't_ think you should be afraid to be nice either!  Each of us have our
own wakes to cut on the Ocean of Life, and no two are quite alike.  Thank
goodness!!!


Brian

    Re .33, you just reminded me why I hated high school so much :-)
   
    Lorna

    Some NICENESS feels like it approval seeking by a person with low
    self esteem.
    
    Some NICENESS feels like love from a person with high self esteem.
    
    The behavior is the same, but the feeling is very different.  I
    can't put my finger on exactly why.

Re: .-1


	I can certainly see circumstance where each of these would be true.
However, in my case I know I'm "nice" because I enjoy it.  I've always felt that
if you're nice to others they'll reciprocate, right?  ( Well, it works most of
the time! )  Courtesy and politeness aren't painful to employ.  As for the
rest -- cards, flowers, etc, as long as they're used when appropriate I find
that people are appreciative.  The goal when I use such things ( in general )
is to brighten the person's day a little, not to look for approval or express
love.  ( BTW, I thought the poem in 25.93 was _outstanding_! )


Brian

    
    
    	Theme from the Twilight Zone in the background..
    
    	I was going to open up this note tonight.. I decided to try
    and catch up with HR and when I did, I was going to start this
    note. Thanks to Nancy for reading my mind in advance.
    
    	I'm one of those "Nice Guys". I'm trying very hard to change
    certain things about me because, in the past, I've gotten screwed
    royally for being "A Nice Guy".  I don't say when I'll call anymore.
    I don't put up with ANY shit. I re-consider giving the benefit of
    doubt. etc,etc,etc....
    
    Although getting a date isn't really that difficult, keeping a
    date is a real bitch. I too have gotten the "You're not a challenge"
    or "You're too nice"  It leaves me wondering "Shit, what does this
    woman want? A smack in the face or something???????" (Something
    I would *NEVER* do)
    
    	Al this has left me a hardend person. Someone who won't play
    games. Someone who says "Fine. Talk to you later" and never calls
    back after getting some shit.  It really sucks but welcome to the
    real world Mike Foley.
    
    						mike
    
    	BTW, I think I have dated all the women these guys have.. :-)

    Yes, Mike, welcome to the club!

    Sucks trying to be every woman's father don't it?

    

    RE.:  .39
    
    		"every woman's father" ? ? ?
    
    	That's not what  *I'm*  looking for!! !!!!
    
    		One is enough for me!  I need a friend/lover --
    	not another father!!  
    
    			My
    

    re.40
          AMEN!!!!!!!!!
    
    					kelly

    Ok My, I agree, but obviously I was not reffering to
    you when I wrote it since you seem to know what
    you want.  

    Maybe that didn't sound fair, what I mean is that
    it seems there are ALOT of women around who DON'T
    know what they want from a man and seem to cling
    to a notion that will eventually get them hurt.
    I am NOT saying this in a sarcastic or critical
    tone, just that my experiences have been that most
    women do think about what they want from a man
    and it winds up hurting both people.

    Of course this is the same with men [not knowing
    what they want from a woman] but that my only
    concern at this time is that the woman I am with
    know what she wants from a man, and maybe more
    importantly, Life.

    Somewhere else in this file someone said something about
    dating Women instead of Girls.  I'm beggining to see
    the light of that statement...

    
    	re.:  .42
    
    	YEP!  I know what I want!  And I intend to get it!! :^) 
    
    	Seriously, I agree with you!  I'm sure there are a lot 
    	of men and women both out there who don't know what they
    	want from the other or from LIFE!  I try to not date those
    	who are not sure what they want or where they are going!!!
        
    	My
    	

    re: .40-.43
    
    And there are _plenty_ of women who get sick of being someone's
    mother!! 
    
    I agree; parenting a lover can get pretty hairy.
    
    My (personal) definition of a "guy who is too nice": someone who
    lets me walk all over him, believes what I say to the extent that
    I feel I may have a personal line to <insert_your_favorite_deity>,
    and has no spine.  What I say always goes with these men.  Scares
    me; too much power.
    
    Seriously, it is a two-way street; I need support and to support.
     I neither need nor want a doormat or father.  "nice guys" (in the
    derisory tone) have a tendency to adore you so much that you begin
    to doubt they have any value as a human being.  What is needed is
    a healthy sense of their own self-worth.  If you can trust your
    own feelings and like yourself, you are more likely to assert yourself
    when you feel your lover is wrong.
    
    I'm not expressing myself very well.  It's just.. there are "nice
    guys" (bad, "no spine", make me feel god-like) and there are nice
    guys (good, remind me how nice we human beings can be).
              
    Lee

    oh jeez guys.
    
    Alright I lost track about at 212.12 whixh notes I wanted to refer
    back to so let's wing it eh?
    
    Any man that treats a girl (and they have to be) "too nice" has
    evidently not set his own personal standards high enough. I only
    wish that I could find the man who wishes to treat me the way I
    wnated to be treated. (Yes I tried singles but my own personal life
    has gotten rather hectic.) 
    
    The nice guys out there Mike Foley, Mike Mahler, and everyone else
    out there (forgive me I can't remember the rest! :-)) don't give
    up hope. Nice guys do finish first they end up hopefully with the
    nice ladies which we do exist.
    
    I really feel awful that so many women have tromped through your
    own self-esteems to create such a horrid picture of how *most* women
    act.........
    
    Sunshine
    moral_support_for_any_single_man

    Well, I wouldn't call a guy with a good dose of courtesy and
    honor "too nice".  I'd call a guy "too nice" who insists on being a
    mirror for my opinions and who would let me tromp all over
    him if I wanted to do that.  I'd actually call him (or her!)
    "not nice", because often these folks build up terrible amounts
    of unvoiced resentments inside them, while they give an appearance
    of being content to be doormats.  They also deny their companions
    the pleasure and vitality of their opinions, and usually don't
    carry their share of the decision making.
    
    There's a big difference, to me, between the two.  Nice is bringing
    someone an occasional gift.  Suffocating is bringing them something
    every few days!  Especially something VERY expensive (unless you're
    a millionaire, in which case my dtn is in ELF....)  Nice is opening
    doors, calling when you're going to be late, asking for someone's
    opinion, respecting someone's space.  Too nice is agreeing with
    someone's every whim.  I'm sure we've all seen a selfish whiny
    child who is the result of parents who are "too nice" to dicipline
    him.
    
    --Louise

>I just happen to attract certain types I guess...

And,

>Ah well, it'll happen when I least expect it..

    Michael - you seem to have an incredible knack for
    self analysis.  Go with these feelings...

    It's note that you ATTRACT certain women but that
    you don't throw back the ones that you shouldn't
    keep!

    

    Today's snow storm has allowed me to catch up on some noting,
    since I've not left for home due to the traffic problems. I
    know one thing after reading this entry, I'll never say someone 
    is "NICE" again and I hope no one ever says it to me.  It's sort 
    of like saying  "Good Luck" as referenced in the novel by J.D. Salinger 
    (popular in the late 60's, can't remember the name).
    
    /MK
    
    

    Hi, I'm new to this conference and I just notice this topic is very
    interesting.  I personally don't believe that people want an abusive
    relationship but I can't help but notice that a lot of women seem to
    end up in relationships that I think aren't good.  Well, I shouldn't
    say just women I know of some men who are in such positions but it
    seems like more women are in that position than men.  Their husbands or
    boyfriends are either abusive or at least very domineering.   Now I'm
    only speaking from my own personal observations and experience; the
    broader picture may be quite different.
    
    For example, I know one particular woman who's husband was very abusive
    to the point of physical violence.  She stayed with him despite that
    fact.  It wasn't until his violence turned against her brother that she
    decided to leave him and go back home.  Eventually she divorced him. 
    She found another man who treated her very well, at least I thought he
    was very good to her, but broke up with him to end up with another guy
    who was not as nice.  Though this 3rd guy wasn't violent as her
    ex-husband, he was nowhere as nice or considerate as the 2nd man she
    use to date.
    
    Another case I know of deals with a couple who are abusive to each
    other.  In some cases they've become violent to the point where
    neighbors  have had to call the police to break them up. The guy keeps
    telling me how much she drives him crazy.  I ask him why he stays with
    her, he has no answer for me.  I ask the girl the same question and she
    has no answer.  They have been living together for almost 5 years and
    they are engaged to be married but the wedding date has been postponed
    several times.  It looks to me like they are in a state of limbo.
    
    Another woman I know chased a guy all the way out to California.  Even
    though when he was here in New York, they use to argue and fight with
    each other.  Though he never got physical and violent, he was very
    pushy and obnoxious. I thought he was sometimes very inconsiderate and
    thoughtless of her feelings.  The 2 of them had been dating for several
    years.  She wanted to get married.  Apparently he didn't.  Then he just
    decided to pickup and leave for California.  She called him every night
    long distance. If he didn't want a relationship why didn't he tell her.
    I remember she was broken-hearted about the whole thing.  Eventually
    after coming back from California, she gave up on him.  She's not
    dating anyone now and I suspect that she secretly hopes that he will
    someday come back to her.
    
    
    These are just some examples of people I know.  I can't help but notice
    that some people(and it seems to me mostly women) tend to gravitate
    toward bad relationships.  Whether they do it intentionallly or not I'm
    not certain but I find that it's very common and I have a hard time
    understanding it.

    re.52
    
    I don't try to understand.  It's too complicated.  Some people are
    drawn to these type of charachters.   I know that I prefer calmness
    and good health to crisis and continuous battery, but I admit that
    sometimes, the 'ole urges of the high tension, obsessiveness creeps
    in and I have to recognize it.  I've experienced both, and I've
    vowed never to go back to the old of my ways.  If I knew, that I
    could just for the moment, I know that it would be disaster and
    leave much to regret.  It's a very hard road to finally get this
    far.  And to hard, to turn it just even a bit.  
       
    My ex has also made some changes, and even though, shamefully-I
    miss some of his old obsessiveness, I would never wish for that
    over what we finally have now.  It's just not worth it.
    
    Some people will do anything for love, any kind of love.  And that's
    too sad.  But, there's not a darn thing you, (as in you nor I), can do 
    about it.  It's like a drug.  And it's a personal combat between the
    drug and the user.  Who wins is up to them.
    A person really has to know what they want and swear to abide by
    it.
                 

    I don't pretend to understand, but there is data that shows that abused
    children tend to pick abusers as mates and end up abusing their own
    children.  It has been explained as "not having any non-abusive
    behavior patterns to follow".
    
    fwiw,
    
    Dick

It is even more interesting to note, from my own experiences, when a nice
guy/gal matches up with someone who's been abused, they are confused. They
start to question what is really normal and a distrust of the good person
developed.

I knew this girl once whose parents were not physically abusive, it was
more mental abuse. She married a guy who also abused her in the same way until
he finally decided, he did not want to be married any more. So reluctantly and I
mean reluctantly she gave up on that relationship not by choice.

She met someone who really cared about her, gave her flowers, looked after her
when she was sick, presents and supported her while her life with her ex slowly
disappeared. Even with all that, she hung onto every last thread of that
relationship, despite her new boy friend's love and support. After awhile, her
new boy friend go fed up and left.

Now she is back living with the parents and hates every minute of it, but
doesn't do anything about getting out of it. She has other places she could stay
to that would be better than where she is.

I find this just to complicated to understand why people jump back into bad
situations, over and over and over again.

    I really think it's a matter of what they are used to.  (Don't ask me
    why but it seems that way...).  I've never been able to figure out
    abusive relationships.  I've had friends both female and male involved
    in them and tried to talk to them, explaining that not everyone is that 
    way (abusive), that they don't have to settle for that relationship.
    
    But the fact remains that until THEY decide they don't have to settle
    for it, and become aware that it IS a problem, there's nothing anyone
    can do for them.  All the coaxing, coaching, words of wisdom, support,
    and psychology is worthless unless the person accepts and acknowledges
    that they have a problem as well as the abusive party.  
    
    It's supposedly a learned trait, that the person is rasied in that type
    of environment and unconsiously seeks it out in future relationships.  
    It takes a LOT to recognize it, and even more to do something about it.
    
    Still, society today seems to become aware gradually that the problem 
    does exist, and that there are ways to treat it.  Hopefully someday,
    people will be able to acknowledge the problems more readily and do 
    something about them.
    
    Skip

Re: .55 by TROOA::AKERMANIS,


>  I find this just to complicated to understand why people jump
>  back into bad situations, over and over and over again. 

See if you can locate "Why Do People Keep Doing the Same Thing Over 
and Over Again?", from 'The Transactional Manager", by R. Wagner.

Another illuminating book is "Games People Play" by Bern, I think.

-- Ron