T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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203.1 | It's life....and full of risks | BEES::PARE | | Fri Feb 06 1987 11:26 | 13 |
| Perhaps he asked for your opinion but I'll bet what he really
wants is your support. Often time what appears to be a
"terrible mistake" is just a concept that doesn't fit into our
conditioning. I know of people who always did the practical
thing...what was expected of them...what statistics said was the
"right thing to do" and who turned out very lonely and unhappy.
Shakespere was right when he said that "what might have been"
are the saddest words of tongue or pen.
Life is to be lived. Our mistakes are as important to us as our
joys. We all have to live with the results of our actions and
the results of our inactions. If he were my friend,...and I cared
about him...I'd tell him to go for it, and I'd wish him well.
|
203.3 | Tell him | WHYVAX::FISHER | Don't suspect a friend, Report him! | Fri Feb 06 1987 13:00 | 10 |
| I agree with Bob. He asked for you opinion, he should be prepared for
an honest answer. Tell him what you feel, and why you feel that way,
and leave it at that. If Brian is really sure he's doing the right
thing, he'll do it anyway and he won't hold it against you. It's possible,
though, that he has some of the doubts that you have, but is reluctant
to admit them to himself. Your concern may cause him to think a little
more about what he is really getting into. As Bob said so succinctly,
"that's what friends are for".
Carl
|
203.4 | does he know why he is asking you? | RDGENG::MACKAY | Kit Kye | Fri Feb 06 1987 13:10 | 6 |
| Perhaps it would be useful to ask yourself just why he is asking you for
your opinion, just what he wants to get from hearing your opinion. To me,
it sounds that he himself is unsure about it; and possibly he is asking
for someone (you) to make a decision for him.
|
203.5 | He asked for it | HPSCAD::WALL | I see the middle kingdom... | Fri Feb 06 1987 13:16 | 7 |
|
You should be honest with Brian. He asked for your opinion. You
think he is making a mistake, and you should say so. My only
suggestion is that you make sure you have a better reason than "she's
only 17" ready when he asks you why.
DFW
|
203.6 | I dont beleave he should | STING::BARBER | | Fri Feb 06 1987 13:19 | 33 |
| If your friend is going to the Azores, hes got to be either in the
Air Force or Navy. A couple of suggestions,
First , if hes in the Navy and hes what is referred as a "sea going
rate" (job) the many times he has to go to sea for 3 - 6 months
will put a strain on a mature relationship. Since I dont know either
him or her, Iam in no position to say how "mature" this can be.
But as Bob pointed out people can be inmature at any age. I was in
the Navy and watched a lot of good ones go down the drain cause the man
was away so much.
The Air Force is a bit better in that most places he will go
she would be able to go with him. The amount of deployments
and length of time away would be of much shorter durations also.
This would allow the relation to stay strong since they would
have more time together.
My personal opinion says that she is way too young to really
know what she wants in life yet. (please note before I get
flamed that my personal beleaf is that NO ONE 17 years old,
male or female knows what they want in life) A "in the service"
marriage can get real strained a lot of times moreso than in civilian
life. Ive been to Lajes base in the Azores, and Ill verify
its a REAL quiet boring place with not too much to do aside
from your job. Maybe this is why he wants to bring someone
with him, then again a serious commitment such as marriage
to a person of such a young age I dont feel is a good idea.
Bob B
|
203.7 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Fri Feb 06 1987 14:02 | 14 |
| But also remember that a too-strong opinion against may force
him to do it anyway. I agree with others, though, that his asking
your opinion is probably an attempt to justify an action he's not
entirely comfortable with.
Rather than put it in terms of a simple "No", turn it into something
positive. Tell him that for both of their sakes, they should
allow their relationship to solidify if it can while they're
apart. If it doesn't work, then the separation will be much less
painful. If it does, then they'll have an excellent basis for
a long and happy life together. Simply marrying this girl then
splitting isn't going to magically make her (or him) loyal.
Steve
|
203.8 | | DSSDEV::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Fri Feb 06 1987 15:55 | 65 |
| First off, I agree that you should give your opinion since you
were asked. Second, I also agree that you should be even handed
in expressing your opinion. By this I mean that you shouldn't
tell him that it is absolutely wrong, but just that you have
very serious reservations and why. You don't want to challenge
him to prove you wrong or to undermine his chances if he decides
to go ahead anyway.
Now, being the nosey sort, I'll give you my opinion. Marriages
fail today much more than they ought or have to. There are two
reasons for this. First, many people don't put the effort into
making what could and should be a viable marriage work. (We have
no way of knowing how they will fare on this one.) Second, many
marriages are doomed from day 1 because the two people aren't
suited for each other, they don't really share the love, trust
and commitment necessary to make it work. This is the one that
scares me about your friend.
You say they met only a month ago, that she is quite young, and
that they are marrying to beat an external dead-line (before he
goes away). All of these bode ill, to my mind. It is hard at 17
to know either yourself or another person well enough to be sure
that you are really willing to make a commitment that you will
keep for the rest of your life. It is possible for a good and
solid marriage to start at 17 or younger, but it takes an
unusually mature charcter and strong will.
Also, it is next to impossible to be sure about such an
important commitment in just a month. A decision to marry really
ought to be based on a long enough relationship to establish a
firm basis. This is especially true if the people are young. A
17 year old one month into a relationship is at a real
disadvantage. Add to this the fact that they are talking a short
engagement (2 months) as well and there just isn't enough time
for a really considered decision.
Beyond this there is the fact that they are talking about being
married now not because they are absolutely convinced that they
want to married and no amount of time will change that opinion,
but because he is leaving in a couple of months. That kind of
time pressure causes mistakes. They mustn't let outside
pressures force them to act preciptously.
Beyond all of the reasons for feeling that the decision can't be
sufficiently informed and considered there are the special
difficulties that they will face. Any marriage is hard work, but
some are even more, and this one will be more. The facts that
generate these are numerous: She hasn't finished school. She
hasn't, presumably, lived on her own and developed a strong base
of self-sufficiency. They will be separated by his military
career. The military requires a commitment greater than that of
another job and that commitment can compete with the marriage.
You asked in your note "How do I tell him that a 'perfect
marriage' as he puts it does not happen overnight?" May I
suggest that you just tell him that plainly, perhaps in just
those words. Successful marriages DON'T happen overnight. They
are hard work, and there are real obstacles to overcome. When
you have more than the usual number of obstacles they are more
work. This is a plain fact of life that people seem to not know.
AND IF WE DON'T TELL OUR FRIENDS these plain facts how will they
ever know? Why should it be a big secret that marriage takes
work?
JimB.
|
203.9 | Just another fruit loop's philosophy :-) | BEES::PARE | | Fri Feb 06 1987 18:54 | 13 |
| I know you guys are all being very practical but,... I guess what
I was trying to say is....there is so little happiness, and so little
love, and so little time. And no matter how well we plan anything, there
are no guarentees, things so seldom work out the way we plan.
Sometimes I think that love is a gift, it doesn't happen that often
or that easy and if you get a chance, you should grab it and not let go.
Then, even if it doesn't last forever (how many things last forever
besides the Taj Mahal?), at least he was happy for awhile....and ...
what more can we really ask for from life? Time is a really wierd
thing (I know...so am I :-) ), I think we should all live for today
and take as much joy from the moment as we can.
|
203.10 | | HUMAN::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Sun Feb 08 1987 17:08 | 10 |
| Yeh, absolutely--take all the love you can, BUT (couldn't you
just hear that one) love and marraige ain't the same thing.
Marriage is a life-time commitment "not to be entered into
lightly or ill-advisedly". He shouldn't dump the girl because
she's young.They should work to make a real go of it, but one
step at a time, building it up. It doesn't just happen, and
taking short-cuts with your life means you have to pay up
later.
JimB.
|
203.11 | Truth or Consequences??? | OWL::LANGILL | | Mon Feb 09 1987 19:31 | 6 |
| Just keep one thing in mind - anyone who offers advice has to at
the same time be prepared to accept the responsibility of their
counsel. How about tryin some active listening instead and trying
to find out where he is coming from? Sometimes in doing this we
are able to help others see for themselves what their motives really
are.
|
203.12 | Tell the truth | NEXUS::GORTMAKER | | Tue Feb 10 1987 01:39 | 15 |
| Sue, Tell him the truth and explain why. I once asked my closest
friend what he thought before I married and he told me that I had
made a good choice. Then when things passes thru the fan and we
broke up, he told me he wanted to say NO STAY AWAY. when I asked
him why he dident say that when I asked before and he said
I dident want to makie you mad or hurt your feelings.
I wish he had taken the risk on both points.
My opinion is that while in love 90% of the brain takes vacation
and rational decisions become difficult.
Take the risk a friend is worth it!
-Jerry
|
203.13 | ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!! | KIRIN::S_HILLIGRASS | | Tue Feb 10 1987 04:45 | 16 |
| Well folks, looks like this note just ended abruptly! Brian
popped the big question on Katrina and her parents this weekend.
We never did get to talk to him so I suppose now we don't have
to kick ourselves in the butt for interfering?!? I sure hope that
Brian never hits us with the old "why didn't you tell me" trick!
Oh well, guess at 24 you should be responsible for your actions
right, at 17 however it is questionable!
One last tickler...
Brian was telling us that Katrina is really excited about getting
married and moving to the little island off the east coast! She
also said that she was really looking forward to ironing his shirts
and making him dinner and cookies and sewing stripes on his uniforms
and ??guess what else??.....yep, you got it...having babies! BARF!!
|
203.14 | Nosy me! | OASS::VKILE | | Tue Feb 10 1987 14:30 | 13 |
|
Sue:
I just have to ask - where are Katrina's parents in all this?
Seventeen can't be legal in your state (which is it, btw?). If
they put the nix on this for even a couple of months, it might
give Brian and Katrina the time for their hormones to cool off
and rational minds to prevail.
Remember, it's not over 'til the "I do's" are said!
Vicki
|
203.15 | what are friends for? | YODA::BARANSKI | Searching for Lowell Apartmentmates... | Tue Feb 10 1987 15:02 | 7 |
| I ***definitely*** feel that you should give them 'a piece of your mind' :-)
The most betrayed feeling I've ever had is having a friend tell me that they
knew it would not work out, but they never said anything...
What'daya think I keep friends around for? Hatracks??? :-)
Jim.
|
203.16 | here's hoping... | PUFFIN::OGRADY | George, ISWS 297-4183 | Tue Feb 10 1987 15:31 | 3 |
|
....they make liers out of all of us....
|
203.17 | Here goes nothin' | KIRIN::S_HILLIGRASS | | Tue Feb 10 1987 20:02 | 18 |
| RE. 14
Katrina's parents are well aware of what is going on. Believe
it or not they think is *wonderful*. (We kind of think that it
is a good way to say astalabyebye!) The age for consent is 16 in
Colorado and by the way for the ones who have been wondering how
old I am, I am not the motherly type for Brian, unfortunately!
My husband is 25 and I am 24.
Anyway I have made a decision this afternoon and I am going to
speak my mind to Brian whether he likes it or not! I am not going
to go at it with the "you shouldn't do it" approach but rather with
the "think about how serious this is" approach. My true feeling
is that Brian is scared that there are no women in the Azores and
he feels he has to take one with him!
Thanks for the help, and wish me luck!
Sue
|
203.18 | good friends are hard to find, honest are even harder | NEXUS::GORTMAKER | | Wed Feb 11 1987 01:22 | 8 |
| Way to go Sue! Hey if he gets PO'd at least you can be comforted
in the fact he asked and you told. Down the road Brian will be glad
he had friends that would care enough about him to speak their mind.
I hope it works out well for him which ever way he decides.
-jerry
|
203.19 | He'd be better off taking her with him unmarried... | YODA::BARANSKI | Searching for Lowell Apartmentmates... | Wed Feb 11 1987 14:15 | 0 |
203.20 | hunh? | CEODEV::FAULKNER | my sharona | Thu Feb 12 1987 13:37 | 3 |
| .19 yup maybe to a state where he will get busted hunh?
|
203.21 | | BAGELS::LANE | Debbi | Thu Feb 12 1987 15:41 | 31 |
| RE .13
I think that you should definately speak your mind! I was in a
similar situation when I was 17. Luckily I had the sense enough
to say no, even though I was in love.
I was going with a guy (and I knew him for a year, not just 1 month)
and he enlisted in the navy. Well, he was scared and wanted someone
there for him/with him, he didn't want to be alone and without a
family. We talked about getting married, but he wanted to do it
before he went in. I'm really glad now that I didn't do it. People
really do change in two years especially when you're only 17. I
realize now that it never would have worked. We still went together
for a while after he went in, but both of change and things didn't
work out.
Too bad he already asked her to get married. One alternative would
be that they live together first. You really get to know a person
that way! Depending on what happened with that get married after
a while.
I just hope he realizes what he's doing with his life. I guess
that it doesn't really matter as long as he's happy, since that's
all that matters.
After you talk to him and speak you're mind I hope that you will
accept his decision and support him in whatever choice he does make.
Good Luck,
Debbi
|
203.22 | Unbelievable! | KIRIN::S_HILLIGRASS | | Fri Feb 13 1987 04:32 | 12 |
| Geeeeezz! This story is almost sounding like a soap opera!
I really haven't had much of a chance to talk to Brian but
I beginning to wonder if he hasn't just flipped his lid. While
talking with a mutual friend, I found out that Katrina dropped
out of high school last year and her parents are looking to
ditch her cuz she has never had a job and all she does is laze
around the house. I'm really shocked that this is happening. Brian
seems to have told a few white lies already to cover for her!
Personally, I am out of this! If he is stupid enough to be
covering for her then obviously his eyes are open to see what
he is doing.
|
203.23 | | COOKIE::ZANE | Shattering Reality | Fri Feb 13 1987 13:34 | 9 |
|
Oh, now he gets to be her knight in shining armor...
Awfully hard image to resist.
Terza
|
203.25 | MYOB | SWSNOD::RPGDOC | Dennis (the Menace) Ahern 223-5882 | Wed Feb 18 1987 17:04 | 12 |
| Just after we were married, my wife's kid brother informed us he
was going to marry a divorced woman who was several years older
than him. Our cause for alarm was that I had "gone with" this woman
and knew that she had problems. The reason she gave me for divorcing
her husband was that he was a sex maniac, in that he wanted to have
sex every week. I'm not kidding, or exagerating. Needless to say
we were a little concerned and tried to caution him against rushing
into anything. When she found out he had talked to us, she broke
it off. Maybe we should've just minded our own business because
within a couple of years he married another older divorced woman
and they've now been separated but not divorced for several years.
|
203.26 | <<<<TACKY!>>>> | KIRIN::S_HILLIGRASS | | Mon Mar 02 1987 22:36 | 10 |
| Definately end of story, Brian and Katrina were married
this saturday. We received an invitation on thursday that
said.....
"We will be united in Love" please join us but please
refrain from taking pictures and bring only monetary gifts.
Ann Landers would have keeled over twice!
|
203.27 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue Mar 03 1987 00:12 | 7 |
| Re: .26
Send them a nice card saying that you've donated money in their
name to your favorite charity (in this case, I would pick
Planned Parenthood!) They are not only tacky, they are rude and
inconsiderate.
Steve
|
203.28 | Their request sounds reasonable. | SQM::AITEL | Helllllllp Mr. Wizard! | Tue Mar 03 1987 13:57 | 9 |
| No, Steve, perhaps they're more practical than their youth would
indicate. If they're going to be moved to some unknown location
by the military, I'd say that asking for cash is quite reasonable.
It takes very little space to pack it and it's a lot more flexible
than most gifts. It seems that they don't know too much about
what to expect at their destination, so perhaps this *is* the best
gift to give them.
--Louise
|
203.29 | All hail Miss Manners | QUARK::LIONEL | Free advice is worth every cent | Tue Mar 03 1987 14:08 | 20 |
| Re: .28
Cash may be indeed the best gift, but it is considered extremely
tacky to ask for it. They would probably have received more cash
by NOT asking than they will otherwise.
In general, a wedding invitation is not supposed to be a demand
for gifts. You can say "no gifts" (in any of several elegant
wordings), but to attempt to specify on the invitation what people
ought to give you (as if they should give anything at all) is
uncouth.
Now if you call up the happy couple and ask them what they want,
and then they ask for cash, that's more reasonable.
Besides - an invitation received three days before the wedding is
an insult.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
Steve
|
203.31 | | ERIS::CALLAS | So many ratholes, so little time | Tue Mar 03 1987 15:51 | 6 |
| re .28:
No, Steve, you are not the only one who feels this way. Miss Manners
agrees with you, too. (As do I, but what's my opinion worth?)
Jon
|
203.32 | Money makes the world go around,,, | HOMBRE::CONLIFFE | Store in a horizontal position | Tue Mar 03 1987 16:40 | 20 |
| Where do we draw the line?
As I read the controversial invitation, it says "if you want to bring a
present, bring money rather than goods". Why does this offend people any more
than the unwritten (but fairly well understood) rule that one brings a present
to a wedding as a matter of course.
If I were to receive such an invitation, and if I were amongst those who were
expected to bring a gift, then I wouldn't mind such a blunt statement since it
would make my "shopping" easier, and I hate buying formal presents. To me,
(while I admit the phrasing leaves a little to be desired) the statement is no
more distasteful than the more traditional 'Registry of Wedding Presents is
being maintained at Niemann Marcus'.
I'm not flaming (for once(-:) at those who find it distasteful, but I'm
curious as to why it is more distasteful than the traditional organised
extortion!
Nigel
|
203.33 | Miss Manners Rules!!!! | KIRIN::S_HILLIGRASS | | Tue Mar 03 1987 22:32 | 31 |
| I think my attitude about this invitation grows stronger as
the days pass. I am a very homey person, I received many beautiful
gifts for our home at my wedding all of which I cherish and will
probably cherish for a long time. I love to look at a picture or
a vase or anything for that matter and say "What a thoughtful gift
that was". The memory of my wedding day as well as all the people
who shared it with me stays with me all the time.
This crap about "society conditioning us to bring gifts to weddings"is
bologna. If you want to bring a gift to wish the couple well that
is your perogative and if you wish to bring only money than that
is your perogative also but under no circumstance should a gift
receiver specify that the gift that you bring be from your wallet.
The invitation that I received insulted me as well as hurt my feelings.
I was going to make a hanging for their wall with a bride and groom
and their names and the day they were married and send it to them
in the mail when I had it finished.
Why should I work four or five hours to give them money to go out
and buy a bag of groceries that will mean absolutely nothing to them.
Flaming on now!
A GIFT COMES FROM YOUR HEART...NOT NECESSARILY YOUR WALLET!
Flaming off.....
Thank you I am finished
Sue
|
203.35 | Think about it - they may need the groceries more. | SQM::AITEL | Helllllllp Mr. Wizard! | Wed Mar 04 1987 14:11 | 13 |
| ...and how would you feel if you asked about your gift sometime
later and were told "well, military movers aren't too careful,
it was broken/lost. I was so sad - it was beautiful and you
put a lot of work into it." Military movers, from what I heard,
are NOT the most careful - depending on the rank you hold and
this guy holds a low one from your description. Also, there are
rather strict limits on how much weight you are allowed to move.
I'd guess that if you gave them something they couldn't use, it
would be sold or left with parents. I've seen lots of ads in
classified sections for "beautiful asparagus steamer - new -
wedding present" and the like.
--Louise
|
203.36 | Try registering for gifts | KELVIN::RPALMER | Half a bubble off plumb | Wed Mar 04 1987 14:53 | 23 |
|
As a recently married person I understand the problems with
wedding gifts. There is nothing worse than getting an expensive
gift that you can't use. As with any gift all you can do is thank
the person and tell them that you appreciate the gift.
Cash is a convenient gift, and it did come in real useful. However
we also got lots of fancy stuff that we would not normally buy.
When it comes down to crystal or the mortgage, guess what wins.
A good solution is to register for gifts. We went into Jordan
Marsh one Saturday and picked out a list of things that we would
like. It worked out well, except that we received *23* servings
of china. Some people forgot to check things off the list.
Jordan Marsh was very good about returning gifts for store credit.
I in general prefer to give gifts, but have started giving
cash to my friends who are getting married. If people want to give
gifts they should at least take the time to find out something about
the person.
=Ralph=
(buy the way does anyone want to make an offer on a large modern
painting with lots of green squares and circles? Never used-
wedding gift. How about a battery operated garlic grinder?)
|
203.37 | a few cents worth... | YODA::BARANSKI | Searching for Lowell Apartmentmates... | Wed Mar 04 1987 16:11 | 24 |
| Just my 2 cents...
Cash, Gift Certificates, etc... are horrible presents; there is no heart
in them. But that's been said already...
Gift Registrys, Lists, etc... are horrible on the recievers part. I don't
like being told what to give...
If I'm going to give a gift, I will be willing to do the research to find out
what *would* be a good gift.
If an occasion is coming up where I may be recieving a gift, I make sure,
subtly, that there are plenty of ideas for gifts; yet I am always surprised. If
someone comes out and asks my what I want for a gift, I tell them kindly, that I
will appreciate any gift that they take the thought to pick out, and if they
really can't think of a gift, then should they really be giving me a gift?
In the situation at hand, I would suggest that gifts either travel well, or I
would accept gifts or money for specific purposes. I would not explicitly ask
for it, though. I would not ask for, nor do I like money gifts, however, if
someone gave me a gift of money earmarked for say, 'for your first home', I
would be thrilled!
Jim.
|
203.38 | How about...... | WATNEY::SPARROW | You want me to do what?? | Wed Mar 04 1987 17:28 | 19 |
| Having been in the Army all my life(dad,mom,self, ex) I have traveled
around the world 3 times and military movers have always done the
packing. They are very responsible and professional. But, I found
that the items that were usuable in each country were different.
Having been in the situation that the newlyweds are in(marry and
leave the country) I found that so many of the gifts could not be
used. Some countries' unfurnished apartments are truely unfurnished
no light fixtures, electrical wiring, etc. which resulted in a tremendous
outlay of cash to set up the house. Some countries water is non-
drinkable so then we had to buy 20 gal water jugs, transformers
were needed for electrical appliances. Maybe the bride and groom
felt that some wedding guest wouldn't know what would be site-specific
useable in their unique situation? Therefore the money would be
more useful till they saw what kind of housing they would get where
they are going and what could be used?
So I sound like a devils advocate here, but I thought I'd share
a different point of view from past experience.
vivian
|
203.39 | Gift extortion? | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Wed Mar 04 1987 18:03 | 24 |
| There's nothing that REQUIRES you to give a gift just because you
are invited to a social event, by the way!
A while back, we recived a wedding invitation from someone we never
heard of.... Not actually being one to follow the above dictum (though
if you ALL start sending me invitations, I'll probably start ;-),
we bought her something (brass Sabbath candlesticks, since the name
was Jewish). We found out a long time later that the bride was
a daughter of some distinct in-law of my husband's who had divorced
Paul's relative (a cousin? I forget) long ago, remarried, and had
this daughter! My husband's sisters did not send gifts, though
they were invited also, since they figured out who this "relative"
was sooner than we did.
Of course, if you don't send a gift (or just send a card instead),
some "relatives" may think you are a cheapskate, but you can guess
what the talk about the above-mentionned situation had to say!
(The family all thought I was a "soft touch" for sending something in
this case.)
I hope she at least LIKED the candlesticks! At least they are
something that will eventually get used in any Jewish home (I have
three pairs of them myself), so they weren't a very imaginative
gift!
|