Conference noted::equitation

    I never have, but aren't they a 4-cylinder vehicle? You should
    check its hauling capacity, which should be in the manual...I
    don't think it's any where near that of a horse trailer, which
    (I believe) is around 5 thousand lbs - 3K for trailer and 1K for
    for each horse - give or take a K.
    
    I checked out the little 6-cyl Chevy Blazer, and was told capacity
    was less than 5K - I believe it was about 3.5K.
    
    Whatever you do get, enjoy!
    -julie

    
    RE .0
    
    I owned a 72 land cruiser..and it would haul anything and go
    over anything..I have a F250 now and the land cruiser would
    do all the same useing less gas...I would recomend the land
    cruiser of a chevy any day..
    
    Louisa

    re.?
    
    YOU GUYZ ARE INSANE !! ;^}
    
    i agree with the person about a 4 cyl. i think you need a little
    more horsepower, i know i would for on and off the highways..
    plus the short wheel base, and take it around some corners/backroads
    i think after hauling for an hour you would quickly change your
    mind.
    weight wise it would haul it , but i wouldnt want to lose two
    horses just to find out.. (also find out **what the tongue wieght
    is on the horse trailer)
    
    i have a 8cyl 360 4bl (car) and i pull two horses and i hardly know
    they are there, but on back roads and if its raining, forget it,
    that horse trailer likes to push the car around ;^}
    

    The Toyota has an inline V6 engine, and the literature says hauling capacity
    is 3500 lbs.  I don't know if there is a hauling upgrade package
    that would increase the capacity.
    
    It sound like it might be too light.  The Jeep Grand Wagoneer literature
    says it hauls 5,000 lbs.  It's a much more expensive vehicle though.
    The dealer said that the Cherokee was just as good for hauling,
    but it looked rather small to me.  At the moment, the Cherokee and
    Wagoneer are pretty close in price.
    
    Any thoughts on the Jeeps versus the Toyota as an all purpose/horse
    vehicle?  
    
    (We'd be throwing haybales and bags of grain and shavings in the
    back a lot more often than we'd be hauling.)
    

    
    There is a general rule that says don't pull anything with your 
    bumper which is longer or heavier than than your towing vehicle.  
    
    Even if you have the horse power to pull the weight, the weight 
    and/or length of the trailer may just take you anywhere it wants to go. 
    
    This can happen 
    
       going down hills--as in trailer passing towing vehicle (can mean 
                   having the trailer and its contents roll.  I have seen 
                   this happen and it almost happened to me.)
       up hills -- if stalled on slick or soft roads trailer can drag you
                   downhill (happened to me two weeks ago--believe me, 
                   the ravine we were heading for was DEEP.)
       on flat roads when a semi passes you--the draft can pull the trailer
                   and then pull the towing vehicle.
    
    Some of the older vehicles are tremendously heavier than the newer
    ones.  Please be careful about towing--I would hate to read here that
    someone wrecked.
    
    Mary Jo

   We don't haul very much either, but I don't want to take *any* chances
   with my horses, so we have always gone with large vehicles with built-in
   hauling packages (don't forgot things like heavy duty oil cooler, and
   heavy duty springs and shocks).  We have a 3/4 ton Chevy truck with a
   V-8 350 engine.  We hauled our two horse trailer a lot with it and going
   up and down the hills in Southern NH put it to the test.  Even in good
   weather, you had to crawl to the top of some of the hills.

   We have since traded our 2 horse trailer for a slant 3-horse and upgraded
   our towing vehicle to a Chevy Suburban (V-8 454 engine), since our truck
   is now 11 years old.  The big engine makes such a difference in hauling!
   Hills aren't much of a problem and we pulled our 3 horse trailer cross
   country with it last summer (minus the horses, though! - but full of 
   dogs and other stuff).

   I tend to be conservative and go for the safety and ease of hauling, even
   if we don't haul that much.  Drawbacks are the $$$ you spend on the vehicle
   and the $$$ you spend on gas!  The larger engines only get 8-10 mpg when
   doing any kind of hauling, so make sure you can get a 40 gallon gas tank
   or 2 20 gallon tanks that you can switch from within the cab.

							Jan

   Ummm, I think there is some confusion... a Toyota Land Cruiser is a 
   different beast than say a Toyota 4-Runner or Pickup.

	As one (out of necessity) towed an extra-tall, extra-wide, 2 horse,
   *steel* trailer with a 4-cylinder, Toyota 4x4 Pickup for more than a year...
   it was possible for ONE and ONLY ONE horse, but I could tell when my
   critter gained weight.  Hills were horrible!!  Heaven forbid I was 
   following someone with an 8-cylinder!!  (They didn't have to get a running
   start to get over meager hills...).

	I have since 'graduated' to an Chevy 350cc 4x4 pickup and IT'S GREAT!
   I don't even consider getting the horse out of the trailer to push anymore!
   ;-)

	Land Cruisers look really nice in the brouchers... aren't they
   Toyota's response to the Jeep Grand Wagoneer??

					-Caroline

    My friend just bought a jeep Cherokee and says it tows okay 
    (with the tortion and anti sway package).  FWIW, It took almost
    8 hours to put the hitch on because of the frame design.  It is
    an enclosed box, not the usual 'C' design.  They had to use fishing
    line to pull the bolts for the hitch thru.  The electrical system 
    also needs a some type of converter box.  I don't know all the details
    but could probably get clearer info if you need it. 
    
    If your interested in a mint used Chevy pickup, Mine is for sale.
    It's all set up for hauling, and does a great job!  I want 7000, but
    that can be negotiated.
    
    Michele
    
    

    
    Also, be careful of what dealers may try to tell you.
    
    I had a dealer try to tell me that a half-ton mini-pickup could 
    haul my BIG two-horse trailer (weighs 6000 empty) with two big horses.
    To assure I would believe him he pointed to a little tiny pickup hooked
    up to a BIG RV--told me that the little pickup hauled that trailer up
    over Wilkerson Pass.
    
    He got angry when I asked him just how many times he intended to do
    that and if he carried insurance on people who tried out his ideas.
    
    Dealers don't very often have an understanding what trailering live
    animals involves.  (I was lucky when I bought my last truck--the sales 
    person knew his stuff about trailering.)

    re.last
    
    bingo...
    
    (dealers ;^})
    
    		wendy o'
    

    It's unfortunate, but the Japanese don't make a vehicle suitable for
    hauling a two horse trailer without restrictions (Horses are few and
    far between in Japan). I did a certain amount of research six years ago
    before I bought my truck and trailer as to what was a suitable towing
    vehicle. As previous replies indicate, a full size pick up with a 350
    cu V8 engine works out best. Since you can only get this kind of
    vehicle from US manufacturers, reliability doesn't match that expected
    of Japanese manufacturers. From Consumers Reports, the reliability
    ratings go from Ford (average) through Chevy/GMC and Dodge to Jeep
    Cherokee/Wagoneer (bring your own mechanic).
    
    However, in the UK, some horse people use rather small vehicles for
    towing. They don't go very far, they don't go very fast, they don't go
    up hills in anything higher than 2nd gear. If you want to be able to
    trailer your horse anywhere at any time in the great outdoors of the
    USA without any of these restrictions you should buy a real truck. 

    
    
    Last Memorial Day I hauled a 3-horse slant load trailer (3000 lbs)
    from Colorado to Iowa and back to pick up 2 horses.  I have a F250
    with the 460 cu inch engine, towing package and extra oil and 
    transmission coolerrs.  It is a good thing that I did as on the
    return trip the temps across Nebraska and Kansas were over 100
    degrees.  I had the oil and the transmission fluid changed as 
    soon as I got back and when the mechanic showed them to me I about
    fainted.  I had had the oil changed and the truck and trailer gone
    over with a fine tooth come before I left and when I got back about
    half of the oil was gone (yes I checked and added to it on the trip)
    and what was left was like tar.  The stress that towing puts on
    the towing truck is tremendous.  Parts wear out sooner and any part
    that is the least bit worn will go.  I pulled the trailer up Ute
    Pass loaded with 2 horses and never even knew they were back there.
    Ute pass is over 5 miles long and has grades as steep as 7%.  It
    takes a good 30 minutes to climb it and I never had a problem. 
    You have to match the truck and trailer as closely as possible to
    avoid break downs and accidents. I would not even try to pull my
    trailer with anything less than what I have.  
    
    I believe that Eqqus magazine had a good article on how to match
    up a truck and trailer for towing.  I'll see if I can find the issue
    and post some of the article here.
    
    Pat
    

    Trailer Life magazine had an article several months ago that listed
    tow rating information for just about every conceivable make/type
    of vehicle (including a Yugo, if I remember right).  Although it's
    an RV magazine, this article was just full of towing specs.
    
    I'll look to see if I still have it.  If not, any major public library
    should be able to help.
    
    A few replies back, someone mentioned a bumper hitch.  NEVER tow
    anything with a bumper (class 1) hitch that you don't want to lose. I
    would always use a frame-mounted receiver-type hitch, class II (3500#)
    minimum.  And, always de-rate towing equipment, e.g., use a 3500# hitch
    for a 2000# trailer.  Auxillary transmission coolers are almost
    mandatory, too.
    
    There's a lot written on towing in the WORDS::RV file (KP7/Select
    to add).
    
    /Don

    
    Re: -1   bumper hitch
    
    For clarification -- I used the term "bumper" to distinguish from
    "gooseneck" or "5th wheel" type trailers.
    

    I went a slighly different way for towing my 7000 # GVW horse trailer.
    I am using an older Chevy van with a 350 v8 4 barrel carb automatic
    with an extra transmition oil cooler and a shift kit in the tranny.
    The advantage is you have your dressing room and lockable tack area
    just because it is a van. With the right gear ratio it has no problem
    hauling three horses, and the trailer has electric brakes on all
    wheels [state law in PA] and the actuator inside allows you to set
    the brakes to come on faster and harder if you have a bigger load.
    This eliminates the trailer trying to pass the van syndrom. I am
    using a frame mounted box receiver type hitch.
    Sandy
    

    I found the Trailer Life article (mentioned in .14) on tow ratings for
    1989 vehicles.  If anyone wants a photocopy of the article, send
    mail.
    
    /Don 
    

    RE: Dealers....
    
    Hubby and I just bought a Ford Ranger XLT, 4WD - NOT to be used
    for towing.  We checked out a number of different types of trucks
    and at each dealership we went to we told them we were "Only looking
    right now, thanks"  -  Each salesman (a couple of whom truly deserved
    the reputation that salesmen have inherited) told us that "Our truck
    is better than the competitions."  Becareful when dealing with the
    salesperson - they may not lie to you - but if what you want to
    know isn't to the advantage of the vehicle, they darn well won't
    tell you the complete truth.  We did our homework by using a buying
    guide (bought in a bookstore) and getting Consumer Reports magazine
    on trucks.  It helped - and by the buy - we LOVE the truck.
    
    Good luck in whatever you get!!
    
    Lynne
    

>    < Note 1062.18 by DASXPS::DOUGHERTY >
>                      -< Honest Salesmen - A Dying Breed >-
>
>    RE: Dealers....
>    
>    [....] salesperson - they may not lie to you - 
    
    That would be a first!
    
    Seriously, though, if you want to get some towing info from a dealer,
    try asking the service manager.  They should be a lot more knowledgable
    (I had good luck getting complete technical info this way from an
    Oldsmobile dealer)

    
    Dealerships are out to sell trucks, not to hand out advice as to
    who's vehicle is the better. It will always be his, unless you know
    the dealer/manager personally. I would base it on 1; consumer guide
    as to towing capacity 2; Others practical experience (not the one
    bragging his truck can do just as much as the next guys-and looks
    good to) 3; Bussinesses who install trailer hitches (again, watch
    for faroritism).
    
    My experience in auto/trucks says, at least a 350CID engine size
    (will last longer), tranny cooler for auto trannies (specially those
    jurnies up-hill), 3/4 ton suspension for strenght and stability.
    If the critters in the back starts acting up, they will bounce anything
    less right into the woods on you. 
    
    We trailered an unhappy Appy from the upper part of the state 
    (30 miles) in a two horse pulled by a 1988 Ford XLT Lariat 4x4,
    3/4 Ton. He was bucking and kicking enough to cause the front
    wheels to almost come off the ground. Anything less would have 
    left us steeringless and would have broken 
    springs/axles/lug nuts/shocks and on and on...down to empty pocketbook.
    
    Why a Ford. Chevy don't take the beating (ask anyone in constuction).
    Chrysler is for pleasure driving (although minumum options), not a 
    work horse. GMC is to damn expesive and you get nothing more than any 
    other truck (except frequent front tire replacement). Everything else
    isn't a real truck as far as heavy load towing. Why Ford... Best 
    dam truck built, all options available & the price is right.
    
    The key is safety for you and the animal. Use the right tool for
    the right job, use it correctly, and you will get the job done
    in less time, less money, and less hassle.
    
    Just my opinion though...Dave'
    
                                                         
    	

    
    	And... Dave is entitled to his opinion!!  You keep your Ford
    (FixOrRepairDaily) and I will continue to enjoy my GMC... Have
    used comparable Dodge/Ford/GMC trucks for hauling (BTW a GMC and
    a CHEVY are really the same vehicle) and prefer the GMC..... 
    Presently we enjoy a 2500 series GMC (3/4 ton - two wheel drive)
    Auto transmission w/low end for hauling.  With a traditional
    Kingston 2 horse loaded AND my 8' slide in camper we can go any
    where - comfortably and safely.
    
    But, the most important thing is safety - and getting the job done.
    Talk to folks(who are USING their vehicles) and read... then decide.
    
    smiles - holly

Hi, 

I happen to drive a 2 wd 1/2 ton 350 CI, pickup with heavy duty package, and 
have have used it fairly often for events, riding lessons and such hauling both
1 and 2 horses (16 hands or so each). I would say I am the average hauler but
I also use my vehicle for commuting and have put 50k miles on it in 2 years
and I love it. I have a Chevy but would drive a Ford or a Chevy but as the
previous replies mentioned, the first concern is safety. 

I also have a weight distributing platform on the trailer which I have found
helps on highways and such and I have driven all over New England, and out to
Illinois with no problem.

Good luck!

    Well, my favorite towing vehicle so far is a camper.  The one
    I've used has a mega (Chevy) engine and there's no way a two
    horse trailer is going to push that thing off the road!  AND,
    you can get up and walk around, or get something to eat or go
    to the bathroom!  All the comforts of home.
    
    RE: .22
    
    What is a weight distributing platform?
    
    gwen
     

    I owned a Toyota Land Cruiser for four years and hauled to shows
    within two hours of my stable.  It did a good job.  Of course, heavier
    vehicles like the Surburban I drive now is a better choice, but
    I loved the Toyota and seriously considered another one.  Price
    convinced me to go with the larger truck.

    I bought a Ford Bronco this summer for pulling my 2 horse Kingston
    trailer with dressing room.  I LOVE IT.  I used to pull my trailer
    with a 3/4 ton GMC that I hated.  My Bronco is the most comfortable
    thing I have ever pulled a trailer with.  It has a 351 engine and
    all the heavy duty towing package enhancements, and, of course,
    4 wheel drive.  After switching from GMC to Ford, I would never
    go back.
    
    The Bronco is a short vehicle and my trailer is extra long with
    the dressing room.  To compensate, I bought a load distributing
    hitch with anti-sway bars.  This seems to be working great.  I tow
    almost every weekend usually fully loaded and haven't had a problem
    so far.  My vote is whole-heatedly for the FORD.
    
    My friend is considering buying a smaller vehicle for light towing.
    She wants more of a family vehicle, less of a *truck*.  I have tried
    to convince her that the Bronco is the way to go for comfort and
    towing safety, but I promised to find out if anyone had information
    on the ISUZU Trooper.  Recently they came out with a 6 cylinder
    and she has a small horse (15.2, light boned TB) which might be
    a light towing job.
    
    Anyone with information on the Trooper, I'd be happy to hear from
    you.  
    
    Anna
    Another_Happy_FORD_Owner

    
    This seemed like the place to put this .....
    
    I bought a 2 horse trailer this past fall, and recently a Chevy
    van to tow it with. I choose the van because it is a "conversion"
    type....you know, with a fold out bed and a bar and refrigerator
    in the back...useless for practical purposes but wonderful for
    show! :-) Anyway, today it is at UHaul getting a hitch installed
    for towing. The hitch they are putting one is a class III (meaningless
    to me but that is what they said I needed), and they are also putting
    in the box for the electric brakes. They also asked if I wanted
    2 more things....a transmission cooling system, and a weight
    distribution kit. I understand the basic principles behind these
    extras, but I wonder how neccessary they are ?? I will not be hauling
    too much, 6-7 times a year is planned each trip being 2 hours tops.
    Does anyone know how vital these extra features really are?? They
    quoted me what seems like extremely high prices, so I told them
    to hold off for now... but if they are neccessary I will have them
    put on before I tow much. I thought I'd ask here, seems to be a
    lot of experienced people in this conference and I don't want to
    take U-Haul's word for it without asking people who haul horses
    (and who are not interested in getting me to spend more money...)
    Thanks!
    
    Linda
    
    

    
    
    I would get the transmission cooler.  My father used to haul a four
    horse trailer with a station wagon and burnt up three of four
    transmissions in it over a 3 year period.  He only hauled the trailer
    on a limited basis, but still put enough strain on the transmission to
    destroy it.  I have one on my truck and would not be without it.  In
    summertime heat it can make the difference between getting home or
    not. 
    
    The need for the weight disrtibution system depends on the size of the
    trailer in relation to the van. I have a three horse slant load and
    have to have the sway bars to help keep it under control on the hills
    here in Colorado.  The trailer weighs close to 10,000 pounds fully
    loaded with three horses, tack and feed so I need all the help I can
    get.
    
    Pat 

    RE .27
    
    Hi Linda,
    
    I recently bought a Ford pickup and am going to get a hitch put on
    also.  Would you mind letting me know what they quoted you for prices?
    I understand that places who sell campers install them also.  The guy
    at the truck dealer told me I shouldn't need any additional "stuff"
    because my truck has a large radiator for the air conditioning.  He
    didn't seem too sure about that though.  Any thoughts??

    
    RE: -1
    
    I wouldn't trust what a dealer or salesman says when it comes to
    ensuring the safety of your horses. 
    
    Invest in a transmission cooler.  Unless you don't intend to keep your
    truck around very long.  Or don't mind stuck on the interstate or in
    the middle of rush hour traffic with a overheated transmission.
    

    I would definitely get the cooler, but the weight distributing
    hitch isn't an absolute must.  It depends on the size of the
    trailer and somewhat on the terrain you'll be traveling.  I pulled
    my 2 horse without one for quite a while.  The 4 horse stock trailer
    is another story!
    
    The class III refers to how much weight the hitch is capable of
    dealing with.  
    

    Linda,
    
    I priced around a bit, and ended up at the U-Haul in Manchester
    NH because their prices were the best. I am paying 300 for the
    hitch without the weight distribution, and the electric brake
    system. The brake system was the more expensive part, the hitch
    itself was only 127.00. I do think I will go with a transmission
    cooler, now that I have read these replies...the idea of breaking
    down on the interstate with 2 horses in tow is not incredibly
    appealing! I will it without the weight distribution first, though.
    The van is almost as big as the trailer, so it sounds as thought
    I may be okay. As far as camper places, I did try two of them
    in my area (Weare, NH), and they were both quite a bit more
    expensive than U-Haul for the same set-up, and one of them wanted
    me to bring the whole thing in...trailer, too! The U-Haul place
    also wanted to do a wiring harness for the lights, but I am 
    having my father do it for nothing, so I did not ask them for a
    quote on that. They seem real good, though, have called me twice
    today already, (once to let me know the van was locked and they
    could not get in...I told them the back doors were open and they
    happily climbed over the sleeping area and bar :-) and then they
    called me back to let me know it was all done and ready to go.
    

    re: .33
    
    The reason a place will want your trailer when setting up a weight
    distribution hitch (or any hitch I would guess) is so they can
    adjust it correctly to fit your truck.  I would recommend an
    adjustable hitch so if you change vehicles, you can change the height
    of the hitch.  Although with an adjustable weight distribution set up,
    I wouldn't recommend changing it's position - not only does it adjust
    up and down, but back and forth.....real pain in the ****!
    
    Michele_whos_greatful_to_have_a_dealer_friend..... :^)
    

    Part of the reason for the entire rig to go is to be sure that
    everything
    is leveled.  Have you ever seen those trucks going along the road with
    the railer tipped on a angle (seen both up and down)...I wonder what
    kind of a ride it is for the horse.  I wouldn't want to ride in it.
    
    Good luck
    

    A survey, now that the question about trailering fee is solved.
    
    We went truck-shopping with trailer towing in mind.  So many types 
    it boggled our mind, so I thought I'd ask what the noters use.
    
    Truck:  (most important part of survey)
    
    What type of truck do you have that hauls your trailer?
    What type/size of engine?
    (Diesel or Gas engine?)
    Any special equipment? (brakes, radiator cooler, oil cooler, etc.)
    Bumper set-up: Tag-a-long or 5th wheel set-up?
    Type of hitch set-up?                                         
    
    Trailer:
    
    What type of trailer do you haul? (Pros - cons?)         
                                              
    
    Your replies will be appreciated, believe me!
    
    
    Lynne (Who_hasn't_got_a_clue_only_that_color_can't_be_blue!)
                         
    
    
    
                         
    

    A few ideas:
    If the tow vehicle is an automatic transmittion it must have an
    auxilary transmittion oil cooler or your transmittion won't last.
    An eight cylinder engine is recommended. Ask about gear ratios,
    lower gearing is needed for pulling up hills.
    I use an older chevy van. It provides me with a dressing room and
    lockable place for tack all in one. My trailer is a 3 horse pull
    behind, (bumper pull is another name). When you go shopping for a
    trailer it gets even more mind boggling. Trailers come with inside
    hights from 6 to 7 ft. Stall lengths vary greatly too. Then there are
    the slant loads that are getting very popular around here(PA). Deciding
    what sort of trailer you want first can answer some questions about
    the truck needed to pull it.
    Sandy
    

    A wide wheel base on the truck will give you better stability and
    safety.  8 cylinders are a must - 6 can pull one horse but you'll
    really feel it on the hills.  The hitch must be class 3 to ensure
    the strength to hold a trailer that weighs some 2000 lbs. plus the
    weight of your horse(s).   A bigger, roomier trailer will be more
    comfortable for your horse.  I prefer 2 escape doors up front...can
    make the difference in an emergency.  I've heard that horses travel
    better in the slant trailers, but haven't seen any so its just hearsay
    from me.
    
    Mary
    
    ps  Sadly, she won (I was her only real competition--we were both
    scheduled to have our B tests shortly after the event).  I was 
    eliminated because although I managed to get there I was quite late.  
    I did go clean cross-country and stadium, with the best times.  

	I think the slant loads are poplular for a couple of
	reasons:  First, for space efficiency.  Also, supposedly
	horses perfer to travel sideways or reverse.   When horses 
	are given the choice themselves, in open stock trailers, 
	they (supposedly) choose to stand slanted, or facing the 
	rear. It does make sense, and I recall reading an article 
	by a vet in Horse Care magazine how trailers should be 
	designed so horses face the rear, rather than the front.
	The reason being that when they face the front, as is
	typically the case, the acceleration causes their weight
	to fall back on their hindquarters -- where they are
	structurally lighter, and therefore less stable.  The
	wear and tear on the horse's back is much worse when
	facing the front.  Unfortunately, there are no trailer
	manufacturers in the US that offer this as a standard
	option (they'd be happy to customize one for much $$).
	
	Melinda

    
    
    I have an F250 with the 460 gas engine.  I also have the towing
    package, automatic transmission and air conditioning.  I bought this 
    truck new from the dealer and got it dressed out for towing in the
    mountains here in Colorado.  If I had it to do over again, I would get
    the F350 dually with 4-wheel drive.  (Money not being an problem, of
    course.) 
    
    The trailer I purchased is made by Diamond-D out of Cheyenne, Wy. It 
    is a three-horse slant load bumper pull with a dressing room.  Total 
    loaded weight is about 10,000 pounds.  I have an equalizer hitch to
    help keep things under control.  The reason that I got the bumper pull
    is that I have a topper on my truck and didn't want to remove it.  The
    trailer weighs about 3,000 lbs empty and is 7' tall and has 6'8"
    stalls.
    
    re: .39  All of the horses that I have ever hauled in a stock trailer,
    tied or loose, have somehow managed to get themselves turned around so
    that they ride backwards and at a slant.  Even when you start out with
    the two horses side by side. 
    
    After hauling the slant load over 2 thousand miles in the last 18
    months, I am sold on them.  Most horses load first time and ride quietly
    wherever you are going.  
    
    Pat
    

    We now have a slant load...we love it.  Horses that are hard to load
    are no longer a problem.  They seem to enjoy it more...we really love
    it.
    
    Good luck
    

	I _know_ that 8-cylinders is preferred when pulling a horse trailer,
	but has anyone out there looked at the Ford Explorer?  

	It is a 6-cylinder, but the 4x4 automatic is rated for 5400 lbs...
	its wheel base is a good length (the 4door)... 

				-Caroline

     We pull  two horses with a Chevy "S10 Jimmy" Blazer. It's a 6 cylinder
     4x4. We have no problems on the highway or most hills. We go a little
     slow on steep hills with 2 horses, but we don't care if it takes
     5 extra minutes to get somewhere.

    I HAVE A FORD PICK-UP WITH A 4 SPEED MANUAL AND 6 CYL 300 FUEL INJECTED
    ENG.  I FIND IT MORE THAN ENOUGH TO PULL THE TRAILER AND 2 QH'S PLUS
    THREE ADULTS IN THE CAB PLUS GEAR.

    Me, too. I tow with a 6 cylinder Chevy van. Don't know the size of
    the engine, I believe it's a 300. I'm also told it's a "straight six",
    whatever that means. No problems towing with it, even with 2 horses.
    And a van/enclosed vehicle is very convienent for shows, I'd think a
    Blazer sort of thing would be nice.
    

    I don't like the short wheel base of the Blazer/Explorer.  I think
    it is more prone to accidents.  Case and point, a friend jack-knifed
    her blazer and 2 horse trailer not too long ago.  Fortunatly the horses
    didn't get hurt, but the balzer and trailer are not usable.
    
    I would use it for local towing only.

    I don't worry so much about what vehicle can pull my trailer as
    much as I worry about what happens if I have to slam my brakes on
    for whatever reason.  I do a lot of highway travelling with my
    horses and you never know who is going to pull in front of you or
    cut you off.  You want a vehicle that is big enough to be able to
    take this kind of abuse.  I have a ford f150 pickup pulling a 1987
    Kingston TB size trailer, and have the truck equipped with the
    electric brakes, as is the trailer.  Personally I would rather be
    safe than sorry, though this isn't saying nothing can happen to me
    either.  

I would guess that a six cylinder vehicle would pull the trailer without too
many problems.  That is not the issue.  Rather, it is the wear and tear that
is put on the vehicle.  A six cylinder is going to have to work harder than
an eight.  So, it will wear out faster, and not last as long.  If there is not
that much difference between them, I prefer the eight cylinder.

Ed..

    I have an 8-cylinder Ford F250.  It tows a loaded two-horse trailer
    without a breath of effort.  But it *drinks* gasoline!  I get about
    7-8 miles per gallon without the trailer hitched up.  I've never been
    courageous enough to calculate what it is with the trailer.....8^{
    
    -ellie

    We have a Ford F150 6cyl (that I hate, but who can afford to
    buy the truck of their dreams? (-8 ) that pulls a Ponderosa
    2 horse extra long/extra tall trailer w/ my large QH and
    med sized gelding with no apparent problem.
    
    

    We did a lot of thinking, soul-searching, and especially
    wallet-searching on this issue, before we bought our new truck
    this past August.  
    
    So we traded our gas-guzzling 350 Chevy Suburban for a Ford F350 diesel 
    (7.3 liter, 8-cylinder).  We figured that if we went with gas again,
    we'd never go anyplace -- because of the expense.
    
    We both love it.  It's turned out to be even better than we'd expected
    on fuel mileage.  My wife uses it all the time, now, even though she
    has an old Citation that's great on gas!
    
    steve
    

    
    	Boy, you guys really made me think...My trailer weighs 6900
    	YES sixty-nine hundred pounds - empty. One horse weighs 1200,
    	and if I have a second horse it's usually 1000 or less...I have
    	an F250 w/a 351 in it, and have only had a problem once, pulling
    	two horses up a steep dirt road with leaves under the tires, in
    	1st gear the tires spuns for a few seconds (the last fifteen feet
    	before the barn!). 
    
    	Guess I should give my truck a gold star or somethin.... :)
    
    	Sherry
    

    I don't know where you guys live who can get away with a 6 cyl engine!
    When we were in NH, we used a GMC pickup with a 350 V8 and STILL
    couldn't make it up Temple Mountain in less than half a DAY :-)
    
    Just before we moved to WA, we bought a Chevy Suburban with the largest
    V8 available(454 if I remember right) for that reason and the fact that
    it was covered space(like the Explorer and the Jimmy) with 5 seats. I'm
    glad we did because Temple Mountain looks like a MOLE HILL compared to 
    the Cascades. Nobody around here considers anything less than a 350 V8
    for trailering horses and anybody who crosses the mountains frequently
    thinks about a BIGGER engine.
    
    The other thing I like about the Suburban is something that was hinted at
    a couple replies back. If you are using trailer with surge brakes rather
    than electric brakes, you need a tow vehicle with enough WEIGHT to be
    stable when the trailer runs up on the hitch ball(which is what
    activates the brakes). I don't know whether I'd trust an
    Explorer/Jimmy/Blazer type vehicle in that kind of situation even if it
    had a V8.
    
    The Suburban does drink gas at a rate of 11 MPG without the trailer but so 
    did the 350. It gets about 7-8 MPG with the trailer and horses. And the oil
    consumption goes UP as the mileage goes DOWN!
    
    Whatever size engine/vehicle you get make sure you get a towing
    package. You'll need the extra radiator size, oil cooling and transmission
    cooling that comes with most trailering packages. Wihtout them, you'll 
    burn up the engine and/or transmission pretty quickly.
    
    Ain't it fun buying trucks?
    John

    re .52
    
    Steve,
    
    How does the diesel handle hills? I assume if it's powerful enough it
    might be OK...With a loaded horse trailer, does it lumber up like a semi 
    with a big load? Or is it more like your former 350 Suburban?
    
    I have thought about switching to a diesel but wondered how they were
    starting off with a trailer and going up hills. Diesels are infamous
    for poor acceleration compared to gas-guzzlers but it might be worth
    the trade-off id they can handle a trailer.
    
    Please educate me and the rest of us who might go diesel
    
    John_who_might_buy_a_new_truck_in_2_years

    re .54 and others
    
    Excellent summation of the situation!  It's a tough trade-off.  We do
    miss the flexibility and convenience of the suburban, as we have two
    kids and a dog to travel with(!), and it's great to have all that
    internal packing space.  I've seen the Explorer -- *neat* buggy, and
    I'd love to have one, but it just wouldn't suit our towing purposes.
    Largely for the reasons stated in .54. 
    
    This may or may not be useful info to everyone here, but one of our
    reasons for going to the truck is that we decided to move toward
    5th-wheel style trailering (gooseneck, as opposed to tagalong).  That's
    because we need the ability to pull four or five horses, and after much
    research determined that 5th wheel is the only way to go when you're
    dealing with that much live weight.  Furthermore, for stability (as
    mentioned in a previous reply), we wanted a heavy-duty truck.  So we
    naorrowed it down to one thing that would best suit our needs: a
    one-ton, dually crew-cab (four-door) with the largest diesel we could
    find.  Not too many left over on the lots, so we wound up with the
    F350.  (You don't want to order one, which is what most dealers will
    try to talk you into, unless you wanna pay through the nose.)
    
    re .56
    
    So far, our diesel handles the hills much better than our 350 Chevy
    Suburban ever did, with the same load.  Diesel is quite different, in
    that it does not (as you pointed out) have the acceleration of a gas
    engine of comparable size.  For that matter, I think that the 454 (gas)
    eight-cylinder is supposed to be better from a power perspective.
    
    But we realized that if we bought a 454, we'd never go anyplace anyway
    because we couldn't *afford* to! 
    
    I think, however, that the diesel has better torque and burns the same
    amount of fuel at high speed as it does at low speed (if I understand
    correctly). It's very smooth. I hardly even feel the trailer now; I'm
    real interested to see how it'll be with a heavier load.  (We can't
    afford a new trailer right now, now that we've got the truck!)
    
    Note that we *did* make it a point to get the biggest diesel we could
    find, which happened to be Ford's 7.3.  (Couldn't find a Dodge
    Cummins...or is it Cummings?)
    
    Most of our pulling so far has been on fairly flat terrain.
    My guess is that we won't be zipping up the big hills like a sports
    car, but then we were really struggling with the 350 on some of the
    ones in Vermont.  From what I'm told by other diesel owners, the
    difference in pulling in negligible as compared to fuel economy.
    Besides, they do pull strong and steady.
    
    My brother-in-law has a diesel suburban that he uses to pull a
    tag-along *four-horse* trailer, and he had less trouble getting up the
    same hill.  His is a 6.2 liter, though.
    
    We haven't figured out the exact mileage, but ours varies between 18 and
    24 MPG.  Dual tanks, too, so the range is terrific.
    
    Diesels have also been infamous for difficult starting in cold weather,
    hence the built-in glowplugs and several-second wait before starting.
    If you're a real impatient type, I suppose that could drive you nuts.
    Personally, I feel a lot better about it every time I pass a filling
    station that I otherwise couldn't have passed!
    
    There's a discussion about diesel engines in the CARBUFFS notefile, I
    believe.  I think the general consensus is that the cold starting
    problems are a thing of the past, thanks to improvements in more recent
    vehicles.  Come to think of it, we used a diesel tractor in New
    Hampshire over the past two winters and had no problems.
    
    Hope this helps. 
    
    steve    
    

I don't know how old your trucks were, but the mileagle figures are nowhere near
what I get.  I have an 88 GMC 1500 with a 350 v8.  On the highway, I get
anywhere from 17-19 miles per gallon.  A little less with the trailer.  In the
city, it is probably closer to 15.  I cannot complain about the mileagle at all.

I have a single 36 (or 38?) gallon tank.  GM found that most people were using
one tank most of the time.  When they went to the other tank (rather
infrequently) the connections would be rusted, or something would not work.
So they switched to one larger tank.  I like it, myself.

I can get well over 500 miles on one tank.  I can fill up, go to upstate New
York (5 1/2 hours), drive around for 2 days, and still have about 1/4 tank left.

So, maybe some of you with the older gas guzzlers should look into new trucks.
Also, I don't happen to think highly about Ford trucks.  The ones I have seen
have been sparse in the cab, and expensive.  At least with the GMC, it feels and
rides like a car, with all of the benefits of a truck.  I wonder how I got along
without it.

Ed..

    The Suburban I mentioned as getting 11-12 MPG is a 3/4 ton 1988 454 V8.
    I have no doubt that the differences in vehicle weight (6000+ lbs) and
    engine size account for the difference in mileage. My OLD pickup(5300
    lbs) is a 1978 4x4 3/4 ton with a 350 V8 it got about 14 MPG when new but 
    dropped to 12 after towing for a year or two. The '88 still gets 11-12 with
    70,000 miles on it. The '88 Suburban has a 40 gallon tank so it has 
    pretty good range even though the mileage stinks.
    
    That's interesting about the reasoning for the switch from dual tanks
    to the large tank. The '78 HAD duals. When one got empty, I switched to
    the other one and then filled the empty one whether I was driving
    around town or whatever. Guess that's why I never had any trouble until
    the tanks themselves rusted out. :-} So, now the old beast runs on one
    tank, has a flatbed on it and just gets used for supply hauling and an
    occassional trip to work in the worst weather.
    
    John

    My Suburban was a 3/4-ton '83 Chevy 350.  Got about 11-12 MPG, as did
    my old '74 Dodge 100 Club Cab 318 pickup. 
    
    re my previous reply about diesel:
    
    I think I got (at least) one of my facts screwed up -- probably should
    have said that the MPG is the same regardless of load, not speed. 
    Lemme check that, though, and get back to y'all.
    
    re a couple of replies back:
    
    I've heard that, too, about Fords not being as well appointed as some
    other makes.  I never did get to see the inside of a Silverado crew cab
    dually, but I imagine it's quite plush.  Those models come loaded, and
    my suburban was a Silverado, so I think I have a general idea of the
    difference.
    
    Ford's excuse...er, I mean selling ploy...is that it puts its effort
    into the engineering and therefore builds a better truck.  I dunno.  I
    suppose they all claim that.  I've heard some denigrating statements
    concerning some aspects of Ford's mechanical accomplishments.  Guess
    I'll find out for myself in the long run.
    
    In any case, the model we got is an XLT Lariat, which is Ford's
    top-of-the-line, fully loaded package.  Not quite as plush as the
    Silverado, I'm sure, but nice just the same.  I'd be interested to
    compare its ride to that of the other makes, but it seems comfortable
    to me.  The long wheelbase may be a factor also, though. 
    
    What really struck both my wife and me, when we first test-drove the
    truck, was how it doesn't feel like you're sitting behind the wheel of
    a big truck.  The steering response feels perfect to me, and with the
    tilt-wheel adjustment, anyone can be comfortable with the height of the
    wheel.  On the whole, it handles great.  Although, with the crew cab
    and dual wheels, you do have to pay a little attention to the length
    and width!  Because of that, the turning radius is not something to
    write home about.
    
    steve
       

Gas mileage will vary with speed.  I get around 18 mpg highway at 65 mph or lower.
But, at 70, which is just 5 mph faster, my mileage drops to something like 16,
plus, I run a much higher risk of getting ticketed, which costs much more than
the extra gas.

Ed..

    
    I still contend that for the safety of you and your horses and people
    around you, use a vehicle stout enough for the job. 
    
    Flatlanders may be able to get by.  But the general rule for bumper
    pulls is:
    
       Don't pull anything heavier or longer than you
    
    Because what you are towing may very well try to pass you on hills or
    in event of a sudden stop.  Just because your vehicle has sufficient
    power to move a trailer doesn't mean you can get it stopped.
    
    I once used my trainers full size Bronco (454 engine) to pull my Campbell
    Coach (weight 6000 lbs) with two thoroughbred size horses (1200 and
    1400 lbs respectively) to a show.  Powerwise and suspension wise 
    we were fine.  (We were able to make it UP Monument Hill easily.)
    
    However, going down the backside of Monument Hill, I tried to slow down 
    since the trailer was pushing me.  And the trailer proceeded to try to 
    pass the truck.  We were from one side of the road to the other all the 
    way down the hill.  And only by the grace of God we did not flip over 
    or blow tires or jack-knife or wipe out the cars and trucks that were 
    trying to get around us.
    
    Having good electric breaks did not help, because when you are in
    the position of having a trailer trying to pass you, hitting the brakes
    is the worst thing to do. 
    
    Here was a case where the towing vehicle had sufficient power but 
    lacked the wheelbase to keep the laws of physics (object in motion
    tends to stay in motion) from taking over. 
    
    We have hauled horses all over the country for 20 years.  I have used
    everything from a big Buick to a big Ford car to Bronco's to light
    pickup trucks to full size pickup trucks.  And we have pulled the 
    transmissions right out of the cars and the Broncos.  I have yet to 
    damage a suitably equipped truck or Suburban towing.  But I have
    seen accidents where trailers jacknifed or rolled the towing vehicle.
    And these were always involving underpowered, underweight, underlength
    towing vehicles.
    
    Mary Jo
    

    re: .63
    
    I agree whole heartly.
    
    I'd rather sacrafice milage for safety. (My 1 ton GMC dually gets
    about 7MPG loaded or not) I just chock it up to the price I have to 
    pay for safety.  We go everywhere - out of state, and it just isn't
    worth it. 

    
    	re .63 - that's why I'm glad I have my brake box hooked
    	up the way it is - it has a pad you push to brake the
    	trailer only, not the truck, so you can slow the trailer
    	down if it starts to sway, push or gain on you. Works 
    	great, I've used it because of wind on the highway and
    	going down a steep hill with an unusually heavy load. 
    	
    
    	 

    
    
    We DO have brakes hooked up with a box that be manually operated. (Have
    had it that way for years). 
    
    But, if the trailer is already swaying (and the animals swaying),
    braking (even if it is just the trailer brakes) can finish the job.

    to .63, .64 and .66 I say "Amen"
    
    Trailering horses is dangerous enough without strapping yourself with 
    a "toy" truck for a tow vehicle. 
    
    I think it was .62 that said they saw a 3 horse slant load being towed
    by a light truck or car. We have an aluminum  3 horse slant load. It 
    weighs 3300 pounds EMPTY. Now add 3 horses at 1,000 pounds each, saddles, 
    hay, etc and you have about 6500 pounds. The safety rules suggest a tow 
    vehicle weighing at least 6500 pounds. Our Suburban meets that criteria 
    but our old full-sized 3/4 ton pickup truck(5300) is too light! 
    
    If a full-size truck is too light to SAFELY tow a 3 horse trailer, how
    can a car or compact truck or truck-like vehicle have a prayer? If you
    want to 1) live , 2) sleep nights and 3) have the best chance of
    getting your live cargo home safely, use ONLY full size vehicles for
    towing your horse trailer. After all, it's only money and as Kathy
    Romberg's perosnal name says, "Money: it's only paper!"
    
    John

    I may not be interpreting the truck laws correctly (and I just
    took the CDO test awhile back) but a trailer over 6,000 lbs
    requires a class 1 (CDO A) (semi-trailer) license.

    With the trailer passing the truck stories I can understand why !

    WA has a similar law. You need a different class license for heavy
    trailers. The regulations specify 5,000 pounds. So, when we moved here,
    I checked to see what kind of license I would need for a horse trailer
    with a loaded weight greater than 5,000 pounds. I was told that as long
    as the empty weight was less than 5,000 pounds, I would only need the
    usual license everybody gets.
    
    Our 3 horse slant-load trailer is the same length as a 2 horse with a
    dressing room. Since it is aluminum, it is LIGHTER than a steel 2 horse
    w/dressing room unless I put 3 horses in it!
    
    Think about it though. Most horse trailers weigh 2500 to 3500 pounds.
    Add two horses at 1000 to 1250 pounds each and you get 4,500 to 6,000
    pounds for a TWO horse trailer! Do you really want to be towing that
    with a lightweight vehicle?

    
    I haven't been in the notes file for awhile, so if you haven't made a
    decision yet...
    
    I myself went thru this issue in August. My wife and I owned a Jeep
    Cherokee V6. After a lot of research I was convinced that anything
    less than an 8 cyl. would be difficult and potentially dangerous. I
    spoke with at least 5 different horse trailer vendors about tow
    vehicles. Some of them had horror stories regarding 6 cyl tow vehicles.
    Transmitions dropping/blown, overheating, starting/stopping, swaying,
    etc. 
    Something else I learned is that MAX tow weight can only be
    accomplished, (on some vehicles), when using a weight distribution
    hitch, (cost an incremental $500.00), on top of normal class 1 and wire
    setup.
    
    If you decide on a 6 cyl. tow vehicle I would look at the following:
    
    		Heavy duty radiator
    		Heavy duty transmission
    		Longest wheel base you can find
    		Weight distribution hitch
    		Trailor sway-bars.
    Also, if one horse is the norm for your trailer load at short distances:
    
    My decision was based on trailering 2 horses most of the time and being
    able to travel some distance if I needed to. I put the extra money it
    would take for beefing up the 6 cyl plus extras and purchased an 8 cyl
    Chevy Blazer (Full size). Not the best wheel base, but, plenty of
    power. I have a family so a truck was not the best choice in my
    situation.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Allen

    re. 70
    
    AMEN!!!
    
    you also forgot tranny cooler :*)
    
    I remeber when i was looking at trucks and all these salesmen were
    trying to sell me a 6cyl. ... my dad is wicked big into cars/motors
    and he know his stuff, He was PO"ED wheni told him what they were
    trying to sell me...
    
    I siad this before in this same note and i'll say it again, I dont
    think I would ever pull a trailer down the road at 60 mph in a little
    6cyl. I also think its too dangerous.. alot of people do do it tho....... 
    but then again alot of people think radials are good enough for snow and
    I use (since i was 16 years old) studded snows....
    and those are the people that cant stop or spin out and total the 
    whole side of my car.. but that another story.. ;*)
    
    		wendy o'

	Considering I was the one who originally asked "Ford Explorer?"  I
   thought I'd let people know what I found...

	Ford has down-graded the towing ability of the beastie.  The automatic
   4x4, 4door with the proper equipment is rated at 5200lbs; the manual is
   rated at 2300lb.  I found the automatic a dog and the manual a blast to
   drive.  However...  I can't see towing a extra-wide/tall horse trailer
   with it.  Never mind Vermont mountains.  (btw - it has the same or longer
   wheel base as the '92 full size Blazer!)

	So, I'm continuing my search for a family-tow vehical...  Note that
   I have reservations about the full-sized Blazer/Yukon as well -- I can't
   see lifting my 8mo son into his car seat if its in the rear... I'm just
   not that tall!  (Please don't suggest a Suburban/sp?...  I'm not interested
   in driving something that massive every day.)

	At this rate, I'll probably keep my car and get the engine work done
   on my Chevy K20 full-size pickup.  *sigh*  I _have_ been looking forward
   to driving something new... if I do find something which fits my 
   requirements, I'll let you all know!  (My husband believes the vehical I
   want hasn't been made yet...;-(

				-Caroline
   

    74 REPLIEZzZZZZzzzzzzzZzzzzZZzzzzzzzZz.....
    
    
                   METAL RULZZZZZZZ!!!!
    
    Why do I smell like Gas?
    oh*I got my boots on...
    
           Crazy_o0ps!_wrong_Notes_file_Al

    I'll put my 2 cents in.  Due to the distances (Alberta) up here the 
    majority of people drive some sort of pickup (6 or 8).  Usually, 3/4 ton 
    type with stabilizer bars.  The majority of shows we go to are either East
    or South, so the terraine is relatively flat.  If you go West, you
    really do need an 8 and if you have more that a "middle weight"
    trailer and 2 horses (plus small dressing room) you need a one ton with
    a double axle for a super safe trip.  You also must have electric
    brakes and a battery breakaway brake (the cops can/will stop you).  The
    mountains are the Rockies and the rest so I guess it makes sense.
    BUT also very common are those open stock trailers usually with working
    cow ponies or quarter horses (yes show stock).  Actually my horse
    perfers travelling in an open stock trailer, and provided he has been
    well blanketed even the winter travelling isn't too bad.
    
    We are seeing more and more Jeep Cherokees and Toyota Forerunners
    pulling and they do an excellent and safe job, provided you don't
    go West and are hauling just a couple of nags.
    
    Linda

    We are in process of buying a car and since I have a horse and may
    at some point want a trailer we are thinking of getting something
    that can pull a trailer. We have concentrated on Ford Explorer since
    it seems to have the hauling power and is still passanger friendly
    (we have a small child). What are people'e expiriences in pulling
     a trailer with a car with manual vs automatic transmission. This car
    will only be used occassionally for pulling a trailer (if at all)
    and I prefer manual transmission (it is also more cost effective
    in terms of gas usage) but how pratctical is it in terms of pulling
    a horse trailer.
    
    Thanks, Ania

    I'd suggest you take a look at note 1062 title = "Vehicles for Towing" or
    something like that.
    
    Personally, I wouldn't even consider a manual transmission for towing. An 
    automatic is generally recommended.
    
    I also wouldn't consider a Ford Explorer because of its size/weight.
    It's just too small to tow most horse trailers.
    
    John

   
   I have seen (she said, knowing that this will lead to the usual
   cursing, name-calling and fistfights ;^) ) a LOT of:

           Blazers (S10 and the 'truck' size)
           Explorers, 
           Toyota Land Cruisers
	   Jeep Cherokees

    pulling trailers to horse shows lately. The point to understand is that 
    if your towing vehicle is small, your trailer must be lightweight. 
    Fortunately there are more to choose from now than there used to be. 
    The formula for figuring a safe ratio and all that is posted (last I 
    knew) in 1062 which John mentioned. Also you need to consider how far 
    you are going to travel, and if you need to do mountains. If you plan 
    to travel far or negotiate tougher terrain you might consider something
    bigger. 

    For local stuff around where I am (central MA) the above vehicles can
    be perfectly suitable. We have been pulling 2 horses in a Brenderup 
    with a Chevy S10 Blazer all over Central MA and southern NH for three 
    years now. The truck still runs great. We go somewhere nearly every 
    weekend from April 1 to November 30. We don't have any special equipment 
    on the truck except extra-heavy duty shocks and extra-heavy tires. We've 
    had no problems on hills or highways. Some friends of ours pull two 
    horses in a Rice trailer with a Jeep Cherokee and they also love their 
    setup. Brenderup and Rice trailers are particularly maneuverable because 
    of the V design of the front of the trailer. Rice trailers also have a 
    front unloading door which is really nice.

    I have  a friend who tows with a Toyota 4-runner. This thing is a SMALL
    truck, with a V6 3 liter engine, 4 wheel driver, and a manual
    transmission. She seems happy with it, but I've been in the truck with
    her a few times and you can hear the strain the engine is making with
    only one horse in the trailer. She only tows locally, however, within
    a half hour of home. I do endurance rides with her, and whenever we
    travel any distances we use my setup, which is a Chevy van with a very
    big staight 6 and automatic transmission. I have never had any problems
    at all, including mountains, etc., and I have an older, heavy all-steel
    trailer. Guess it's a matter of what you intend to do.
    

    re .32
    
    The hauling capacity of a vehicle does depend on the type of
    transmission as well as engine size and other factors. Most dealers
    should have a trailer towing capacity chart for the vehicles that they
    sell. I know Ford produces one, I just don't have a copy since it was
    the dealer's only one.
    
    Generally speaking a manual transmission reduces the towing capacity of
    a vehicle, everything else being equal. I know several people who
    trailer their horses in big trailers with big (F250 and up) pick up
    trucks without any problems. If you are comfortable with a manual
    transmission and the vehicle towing capacity is not exceeded, there is
    no reason not to use a manual transmission. If you exceed the capacity
    or are less agile with a truck manual transmission (they are somewhat
    clunky) than that of a small car, you will be replacing lots of clutch
    plates.
    
    Since most folk in the U.S. do not know how to drive or dislike driving
    vehicles with manual transmission, the resale value of your chosen
    vehicle may be lower should you choose to trade it in at a future date.
    If you drive it until it drops this isn't an issue.

    Well, the time has come to replace my old Chevy van and get a new
    towing truck. The van worked out well for the years I used it, but its
    an 84, rusting, and has 130K+ miles on it. It has a large V6 engine it
    it, that worked just fine until this past year when I started loosing
    power more and more often on hills. Guess it's tired.
    
    At any rate, I have begun looking around, although I won't be buying
    until probably spring, and the prices have shocked me. :-) I dont want
    or need brand-new, but I do want nothing older than 5 yrs old. I also
    think I want a truck this time instead of a van (although I really cant
    say exactly why, guess I just want a change). In reading back through
    this string, I am leaning towards a V8 this time, too, although I dont
    tow far or frequently, we do live in a hilly area.  I know I need a
    large wheel base, and a truck that outweights my trailer when loaded
    (it's a steel 2-horse), and automatic transmission.  
    
    My question here is does anyone have a particular reason for towing with 
    4 wheel drive as opposed to 2 wheel? I am reluctant to buy used 4 wheel
    drive, you never know what previous owners have done with it (plowing,
    ba-haing, etc), and the extra cost of it makes me want to have a REAL
    good reason. :-) Still, it seems most people who tow do seem to use it.
    How come??
    
    Thanks!
    
    Linda
    

    Hi Linda....
    
    Today I have a 4WD GMC.  After having the luxury of going from a
    2WD wimpy toy to a real truck that happens to be 4WD, I'd never go
    back.  If you go anywhere and park in someone's hilly field and it 
    gets wet, and slick, it's nice to know you have the extra leverage
    when you need it (vs. emptying the trailer and crossing your fingers
    that you won't need someone else w/ a 4WD to pull you out).
    
    Michele

    
    Getting stuck in a muddy field with a trailer and horses isn't
    my idea of a way to end a show day.  (8
    
    We have a 4WD F150 86 Ford PU-truck, and it's a V6.  The next
    towing vehicle will be a 4WD extended cab dual wheel V8 GMC.
    Might not be new (at $23K, most likely not! (8 ), but they
    are awesome!
    
    Lynne

    I have had a 2WD truck for ten years and have not had a problem getting
    stuck. If you think you will be driving into muddy fields a lot then
    you will need a 4WD. However 4WD costs more, is something more to go
    wrong, results in lower gas mileage, doesn't ride as well and reduces
    the maximum trailer weight that the truck can pull, because of the
    extra weight of the transmission.
    
    I bought a new truck this year to replace my 14 year old Chevrolet C10.
    I didn't even look at 4WD since I don't drive into wet of muddy areas a
    lot. It may be the "macho" thing to have 4WD but it's rarely really
    necessary unless you live on an unmaintained dirt road in NH. 

    Thanks for the inputs so far! Gives me some things to think about...I
    dont usually drive into muddy, wet fields as I don't bother going in
    inclement weather. The idea of it reducing the trailer weight the truck
    can pull makes me want to steer away from it. The extra gas mileage
    isnt a concern as this is a 3rd vehicle that will be used almost 
    exclusively for towing and hauling hay and only rarely for commuting.
    My hubby is concerned about me buying used 4WD and insists on being
    sure it was never used to plow or drive pell-mell though the woods,
    etc.....I guess it will depend on the kind of deal I can get, Im glad to
    know it's not necessarily recommended for towing under normal
    circumstances. Thanks again!
    

    Re 4WD vs 2WD
    
    While 4WD does reduce the tow rating of a vehicle versus the same
    engine/rear-end combination in 2WD, it ain't much of a difference. Some
    actually have the same tow rating as their 2WD counterparts. I've got
    an article from Feb 1993 Trailer Life which show the tow ratings for
    about every 1993 vehicle sold. The differences look like an average of 300
    pounds more rating with 2WD. The biggest difference is 500 pounds and
    the smallest is 0 pounds. What's 300 pounds out of a tow rating of
    7,000 to 12,000 pounds?
    
    Options like standard versus extended cab make a similar difference
    with Ford trucks but Checy/GMC trucks have the same rating either way.
    
    We've owned both 2WD and 4WD tow vehicles. 2WD is definitley more
    comfortable riding. As to gas mileage, that depends on the engine as
    much as anything. With a big V8 engine(7.3 GM or 7.5 Ford), you'll get
    lousy mileage all the time. We get about 11 mpg with or without the
    trailer. When we used a 350(5.6 liter) engine and 4WD, we got about 13
    mpg in 2WD w/o a trailer, 8 mpg in 2WD with a trailer and about 10 mpg
    in 4WD w/o a trailer(You don't do much trailering in 4WD! ;-)
    
    What will we buy next time? I'm not sure. We do most of our trailering
    in the summer which is fairly dry here in WA(except for this year when
    it rained nearly all summer). But, even if it's not rainy the day you
    go out, the ground could still be soft from rain a day or 2 before.
    If we start doing more in the early Spring or into the Fall when it 
    rains/drizzles more often, we might get 4WD again. Or if we do more 
    trail riding in the wilderness, etc. 
    
    I've been reading the RV notes file to pick up info on tow vehicles.
    You might try that for more details than you ever wanted to know.
    
    Some of what I learned doing that is that:
    	1. The tow rating includes: passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle
    	   as well as the trailer and everything in it. That's why the tow
    	   rating drops a little with any option that adds weight to the
    	   tow vehicle.
    	2. The tow rating indicates what you can tow without blowing up
    	   the truck. It doesn't mean you'll get decent performance when
           towing that much. A rule of thumb is to divide the tow rating by
    	   2 and you'll have a good idea what you can tow without crawling
           up hills.
    	3. For safety, you should have a wheelbase on the truck which is
    	   at least as long as the distance from the rear wheels of the
           truck to the front wheels of the trailer.
    

    From a slightly different perspective, the most comfortable,
    best riding, tow vehicle I've ever used is a motorhome. The
    engine is big enough, it weighs enough, it's incredible smooth
    on the highway, you can get up and move around (as long as you're
    the passenger, not the driver) AND it comes with it's own kitchen
    and bathroom!  On the down side, motorhomes cost a whole lot more
    than trucks.
    
    Another vehicle that I thought was very smooth, comfortable and
    stable on the highway was a Jeep Wagoneer with all-wheel drive.